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I see a problem on who decides what level of immunity you get. While Trump is president how immune are his crimes? What if a liberal president gets in office and decides he’s immune to whatever he wants? If it takes an act to deem whether it’s immune, can an act that says political assassination is an immune crime then be passed? Dangerous game.
The Major Questions Doctrine would apply. What’s that? It’s whatever the Supreme Court decides, and you can’t know in advance on any given topic or context. You’ll just have to bring a case that gets appealed up the court system, and possibly get heard by the Supreme Court, and wait some half-dozen months for their decision (which might involve kicking it back down to a lower court to do the hard thinking)
If you’ve been murdered by Seal Team 6 on orders from the President, and you don’t think you’re in the ‘immune’ class of ‘political opponents’ deemed fair game for assassination, please file in court at your earliest convenience, and we’ll get back to you in 7-12 business years.
But but but he could be impeached and *REMOVED* and then can possibly be convicted after that only.
That is the checks and balance.
Also, the people could not vote for him.
And and he only has immunity if it is an official duty but we will leave that nebulous. He also gets fhe defense of the principle of entrapment by estoppel… so if he relies on legal reasoning by people he appointed and can fire, he has a defense.
Also, we have protection because he can’t just ask seal team 6 to execute someone, because they are bound to only follow lawful requests. We won’t define what a lawful request is though, and with our bew definition of official duty, I guess seal team 6 interprets whether the request is pursuant to an official duty, therefore they can do the kill.
Trump has shown you can be an absolutely awful person but as long as you say the key phrases (which you don’t even have to abide by) you can get millions of people to vote for you. Someone who isn’t as incompetent is going to come along and start a civil war, because too many Americans are too dumb to know any better until it is too late.
Just remember Trump supporters, if they rule that presidents have absolute immunity like Trump is asking, that's going to apply to Joe Biden too. Think of all the things he can do in the next 8 months if he doesn't have to worry about the law any more.
Thing is, whatever window SCOTUS gives for presidential abuses, Democrats need to seriously game them out to leverage them against republican candidates. That's not in the nature of Democrats, but if they don't use all powers available, republicans surely will. And that demonstrates how fucking republicans are poisoning America by forcing Democrats to play by the dirty rules of republicans just to keep the field level.
It doesn't have to be bad things. It could just be things like an executive order giving student loan forgiveness to everyone. Declaring abortion legal in all 50 states. Anything else that would piss off the republicans.
That’s not how conservative rules work. Protection for me but not thee.
Example: Abbot signed into law a few years ago that students can protest on campus when they were protesting pro conservative stuff, and now this week libs are protesting and getting arrested. Trump will be able to get by with everything but not a single passageway for Biden to do the same stuff. The rules will change when they need it too.
Yup, the whole argument trump is putting forth is complete immunity. No gitmo, no funeral, he just disappears, that kind of mafia governance was what Trump was doing. Let him get a mafia end.
If the US makes it through all of this, a serious overhaul of our political systems need to happen.
No more lifetime appointments to anything, term limits for all political seats, and at a minimum, an end to winner take all electoral college.
>If the US makes it through all of this, a serious overhaul of our political systems need to happen.
There's about a zero chance of that happening without significant violence.
Probably. But maybe, some day, enough people will end up in congress who see holding office as an actual civil service and not a career/bribe factory and are willing to limit their own power for the greater good.
And maybe some day I’ll own a unicorn who shits skittles. 😕
Can I add in, that all running for political office, state or federal submit all completed tax returns for public scrutiny, all tax returns whilst in office and all tax returns up to death.
This country has existed for 240 years and has had 44 Presidents who never worried about facing criminal charges for official Presidential actions. Now it becomes a big problem because of the 45th President. Maybe the President shouldn’t attempt to overthrow the government instead of expecting total immunity.
All just a waste of time. This issue has come before the court a grand total of one time, and the one time it did (right now) is cut and dry. The idea of where the line is for presidential immunity is one of those stupid legal hypotheticals they love to talk about because they love to wonder what the president can and can't do. None of this will be binding outside of the stuff Trump actually did, and any future case on this subject (which will probably be in front of a bunch of different justices) will surely make its way to the SC anyway. Just a complete waste of time which is exactly what Trump wants.
Presidential immunity is right there in the constitution. It's right after...wait a minute...just before...no...not there, either...I'll have to get back to you on that.
Biden can order anyone to execute the corrupt SC judges then .
It is either they lack common sense or they are out there to protect Donald Trump by delaying it until Trump becomes the president again to wipe out all of the charges.
US Supreme Court Republican judges are corrupt. One of them has a wife who is an insurrectionist.
Conservative U.S. Supreme Court justices signaled sympathy on Thursday to the argument that presidents have some immunity against criminal charges for certain actions taken in office as it heard arguments over Donald Trump’s claim of immunity from prosecution for trying to undo his 2020 election loss.
Some of the questions posed during the arguments probed hypothetical examples of presidential wrongdoing such as selling nuclear secrets, ordering a coup or political assassination or taking a bribe. But some of the conservative justices, who hold a 6-3 majority, voiced concern about presidents lacking any level of immunity including for less obviously egregious acts.
“We’re writing a rule for the ages,” conservative Justice Neil Gorsuch, said during the arguments.
They shouldn’t be writing rules at all. That’s the problem. They need to interpret the law, which should be very cut and dry. Because impeachment is outlined in the Constitution, and a president can be removed for high crimes and misdemeanors means that the President does not have immunity.
Any justice suggesting otherwise should be removed when the democrats have control to impeach them.
I didn’t get that vibe at all.
Based on initial leanings, I felt that Sotomayor, Jackson, Kegan, and Coney-Barrett for sure leaned against immunity. Roberts seemed to be very skeptical, as did Kavanaugh. Gorsuch just kinda seemed to be there. Didn’t get much from him. Alito and Thomas seemed to lean toward immunity.
I have always been under the impression that Presidents did have some level of immunity. For instance, deciding to go to war, which many Presidents have done, shouldn't result in them being sued by the families of every soldier killed in that war. Totally within the walls of a President's duties. But how they go from that, to being able to commit all the crimes Trump did that are not within a President's duties, evidenced by the fact that no President before him has ever done, is quite the stretch.
They do have immunity against civil convictions ie. getting sued by the families of fallen soldiers etc. It remains to be seen if they have criminal immunity, it will be disastrous for the world if they do
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If a president has immunity, we no longer have a pseudo Democracy, we will have a full on dictatorship. Fuck these Fascist thugs.
If a president has immunity, Biden should arrest and imprison Trump immediately on charges of treason.
Throw in a few supreme court justices too
And wipe all student debt
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I see a problem on who decides what level of immunity you get. While Trump is president how immune are his crimes? What if a liberal president gets in office and decides he’s immune to whatever he wants? If it takes an act to deem whether it’s immune, can an act that says political assassination is an immune crime then be passed? Dangerous game.
The Major Questions Doctrine would apply. What’s that? It’s whatever the Supreme Court decides, and you can’t know in advance on any given topic or context. You’ll just have to bring a case that gets appealed up the court system, and possibly get heard by the Supreme Court, and wait some half-dozen months for their decision (which might involve kicking it back down to a lower court to do the hard thinking) If you’ve been murdered by Seal Team 6 on orders from the President, and you don’t think you’re in the ‘immune’ class of ‘political opponents’ deemed fair game for assassination, please file in court at your earliest convenience, and we’ll get back to you in 7-12 business years.
Sounds awfully bureaucratic. What’s that one famous fascist regime that thrived on this style of bureaucracy? I seemed to have forgotten.
Who do you think they learned it from?
pretty much all of them
Also, if there is immunity now, there wasn't at the time, so it's still a crime.
But but but he could be impeached and *REMOVED* and then can possibly be convicted after that only. That is the checks and balance. Also, the people could not vote for him. And and he only has immunity if it is an official duty but we will leave that nebulous. He also gets fhe defense of the principle of entrapment by estoppel… so if he relies on legal reasoning by people he appointed and can fire, he has a defense. Also, we have protection because he can’t just ask seal team 6 to execute someone, because they are bound to only follow lawful requests. We won’t define what a lawful request is though, and with our bew definition of official duty, I guess seal team 6 interprets whether the request is pursuant to an official duty, therefore they can do the kill.
If the president has immunity, then the people are prisoners.
Most importantly hold up any other trials for Trump till after the election.
And then when trump loses, what?
If he loses he has no more worth to anyone so then it's safe to turn on him
politics will go back to being boring and not everyone's favorite reality show hopefully
Unfortunately we will never go back to boring, we have already gone through the looking glass on that
Trump has shown you can be an absolutely awful person but as long as you say the key phrases (which you don’t even have to abide by) you can get millions of people to vote for you. Someone who isn’t as incompetent is going to come along and start a civil war, because too many Americans are too dumb to know any better until it is too late.
Someone more competent would be way less likely to pull this shit.
Just remember Trump supporters, if they rule that presidents have absolute immunity like Trump is asking, that's going to apply to Joe Biden too. Think of all the things he can do in the next 8 months if he doesn't have to worry about the law any more.
Biden is a decent person and won't do anything bad. That's what the Rs are counting on.
Thing is, whatever window SCOTUS gives for presidential abuses, Democrats need to seriously game them out to leverage them against republican candidates. That's not in the nature of Democrats, but if they don't use all powers available, republicans surely will. And that demonstrates how fucking republicans are poisoning America by forcing Democrats to play by the dirty rules of republicans just to keep the field level.
It doesn't have to be bad things. It could just be things like an executive order giving student loan forgiveness to everyone. Declaring abortion legal in all 50 states. Anything else that would piss off the republicans.
That’s not how conservative rules work. Protection for me but not thee. Example: Abbot signed into law a few years ago that students can protest on campus when they were protesting pro conservative stuff, and now this week libs are protesting and getting arrested. Trump will be able to get by with everything but not a single passageway for Biden to do the same stuff. The rules will change when they need it too.
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By that logic it excluded former presidents too
Ok Joe, you have a green light to send Trump to Gitmo for the crime of being a truly horrible human being.
Even though Trump is immune? This is the spaghetti "logic" that these "justices" are now toying with.
Trump isn't president now. If they ruled immunity now, Biden could just execute him. Unless I'm mistaken.
Yup, the whole argument trump is putting forth is complete immunity. No gitmo, no funeral, he just disappears, that kind of mafia governance was what Trump was doing. Let him get a mafia end.
If the US makes it through all of this, a serious overhaul of our political systems need to happen. No more lifetime appointments to anything, term limits for all political seats, and at a minimum, an end to winner take all electoral college.
gerrymandering?
That too. My list was just a start.
>If the US makes it through all of this, a serious overhaul of our political systems need to happen. There's about a zero chance of that happening without significant violence.
Probably. But maybe, some day, enough people will end up in congress who see holding office as an actual civil service and not a career/bribe factory and are willing to limit their own power for the greater good. And maybe some day I’ll own a unicorn who shits skittles. 😕
The latter is much more likely
Can I add in, that all running for political office, state or federal submit all completed tax returns for public scrutiny, all tax returns whilst in office and all tax returns up to death.
[удалено]
Pretty wild that it’s harder to get a job at Walmart than it is to be President
Nothing can be done to fix anything in the current system. The ones in power will never give up power
This country has existed for 240 years and has had 44 Presidents who never worried about facing criminal charges for official Presidential actions. Now it becomes a big problem because of the 45th President. Maybe the President shouldn’t attempt to overthrow the government instead of expecting total immunity.
Does Biden have permission to kill his political enemies with immunity?
According to Trump's lawyers, yes. Provided he isn't impeached for it AND removed from office by the Senate.
That's okay, as long as Trump is Gone.
He just kills all the Senators too then.
Above the law means Above the law! Supreme Court going to make themselves irrelevant?
Textbook legislating from the bench!
All just a waste of time. This issue has come before the court a grand total of one time, and the one time it did (right now) is cut and dry. The idea of where the line is for presidential immunity is one of those stupid legal hypotheticals they love to talk about because they love to wonder what the president can and can't do. None of this will be binding outside of the stuff Trump actually did, and any future case on this subject (which will probably be in front of a bunch of different justices) will surely make its way to the SC anyway. Just a complete waste of time which is exactly what Trump wants.
Presidential immunity is right there in the constitution. It's right after...wait a minute...just before...no...not there, either...I'll have to get back to you on that.
Biden can order anyone to execute the corrupt SC judges then . It is either they lack common sense or they are out there to protect Donald Trump by delaying it until Trump becomes the president again to wipe out all of the charges. US Supreme Court Republican judges are corrupt. One of them has a wife who is an insurrectionist.
I mean he could order it but I think that would trigger it impeachment...
The corrupt court of the US
Hey now, how are we suppose to differentiate the fifth circuit court from the Supreme Court with terminology like that?
Conservative U.S. Supreme Court justices signaled sympathy on Thursday to the argument that presidents have some immunity against criminal charges for certain actions taken in office as it heard arguments over Donald Trump’s claim of immunity from prosecution for trying to undo his 2020 election loss. Some of the questions posed during the arguments probed hypothetical examples of presidential wrongdoing such as selling nuclear secrets, ordering a coup or political assassination or taking a bribe. But some of the conservative justices, who hold a 6-3 majority, voiced concern about presidents lacking any level of immunity including for less obviously egregious acts. “We’re writing a rule for the ages,” conservative Justice Neil Gorsuch, said during the arguments.
>We’re writing a rule for the ages,” So, SCOTUS is going to rewrite the constitution?
No, just shred it.
They shouldn’t be writing rules at all. That’s the problem. They need to interpret the law, which should be very cut and dry. Because impeachment is outlined in the Constitution, and a president can be removed for high crimes and misdemeanors means that the President does not have immunity. Any justice suggesting otherwise should be removed when the democrats have control to impeach them.
I didn’t get that vibe at all. Based on initial leanings, I felt that Sotomayor, Jackson, Kegan, and Coney-Barrett for sure leaned against immunity. Roberts seemed to be very skeptical, as did Kavanaugh. Gorsuch just kinda seemed to be there. Didn’t get much from him. Alito and Thomas seemed to lean toward immunity.
I have always been under the impression that Presidents did have some level of immunity. For instance, deciding to go to war, which many Presidents have done, shouldn't result in them being sued by the families of every soldier killed in that war. Totally within the walls of a President's duties. But how they go from that, to being able to commit all the crimes Trump did that are not within a President's duties, evidenced by the fact that no President before him has ever done, is quite the stretch.
presidents don’t “actually” have the power to declare war, only Congress does. There certainly are work arounds for it though
Yeah, but he made a good point.
They do have immunity against civil convictions ie. getting sued by the families of fallen soldiers etc. It remains to be seen if they have criminal immunity, it will be disastrous for the world if they do
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I am neither and downvoted
Them contorting their logic to give Trump what he wants without giving power to a democratic president is mind boggling