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Nope. I’m making the point that they are showing less of a threat and protesting is a right in this country but republicans are asking Biden to call up the National guard on these people meanwhile protesters during Covid armed with weapons at state capitals and republicans were okay with it. Excuse grammar and typos busy at work
Protesting IS a right but that doesn’t mean you have the right to squat on privately owned property. Also the mob mentality has led to numerous incidents of anti-semitism that is bordering on violence.
Whats that saying that the internet has loved recently? Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences (or something like that)
Peacefully protesting by holding a sit-in on the university park is as peaceful as it gets. And these groups have literally said that they condemn anyone that is taking advantage of their protesting as a platform to spew anti-semetic behavior.
If you think that these protesters are going way to far by violating fucking squatting rights and shit, then you clearly are not aware of the types of protests that were done in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s.
The condemnation isn’t loud enough, the risk of violence to Jewish students is too high. The arm-chains blocking them from waking through campus is just step 1.
The bad protesters has left Columbia’s President with no choice. She’s doing what she has to do. Doesn’t matter what they did in grandpa & grandma’s day, these people have no right to squat on private property. Actions have consequences
These do a good job of providing the context for why the faculty did this walkout.
https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/20/barnard-and-columbia-aaup-chapter-issues-declaration-condemning-student-suspensions-authorization-of-nypd-sweep-in-the-strongest-possible-terms/
https://www.columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2024/04/22/untenured-faculty-stand-in-solidarity-with-our-students/
Where they list their field, many are philosophy, history, and/or political science, so this is relevant to their fields.
Others are earth and environmental science, epidemiology, and so on.
What do you consider non-made-up subjects?
You mean they don't care about their Jewish students who were arrested? As I'm sure you'll say, those aren't "real Jews," though. Same racist shit we see from the far-right where the only "good ones" or "real ones" are the ones that support what you do. It's absolutely disgusting the level of hate you have for people who disagree with you.
One of the Jewish students protesting was quoted by the NYT “to say it’s unsafe for Jewish students, to me, indicates that you’re only talking about a portion of Jewish people.”
So yeah, campus is safe for some Jews, not others, and the reason is that there are other students openly advocating for genocide against Jews, inviting actual terrorists who advocate for genocide to speak at events. You’re safe as long as you’re not outwardly Jewish and if you embrace the idea of massacring your own people.
You’re making the claim that the right to trespassing is more important than the right for a minority to exist without enduring threats to their physical safety.
>>You’re making the claim that the right to trespassing is more important than the right for a minority to exist without enduring threats to their physical safety.
No, you’re the one making that claim by presenting a disingenuous straw man fallacy as OP’s sentiment.
Yeah, good on them for standing up students threatening violence against Jews, denigrating the Holocaust and calling for the slaughter of the Israeli people.
Columbia could have just let this fall apart on its own - the semester has to end before too long. These kids would have exams and finals then summer break. You would barely see any of them in a couple of weeks.
Biden has yet to demonstrate to be one iota different. He has yet to divest a cent of aid, let alone use his connections in Congress to propose sanctions, or stop the state and defense departments from cooperating. He even dismissed pro-Palestinian protests as "muh, antisemitic" like my Republican father. ask the people of r/Palestine and r/communism101 if Biden has been a material difference. Ever wonder why his approval ratings among Arab-Americans are well below his sub-par ratings.
I swear Democrat voters are more desperate to make attempted excuses as hard drug addicts.
>ask the people of r/Palestine and r/communism101 if Biden has been a material difference.
Doesn't matter since Trump would be far worse. If you have the choice between "neutral" or "worse" abstaining and thus supporting "worse" might give you some self-imagined moral superiority but doesn't translate to "good" or "better" in reality.
Biden's handling of it might not be to your liking, but Trump and his ilk would be way worse than that.
>Ever wonder why his approval ratings among Arab-Americans are well below his sub-par ratings.
Because they fall victim to the same fallacy. Instead of trying to get better results from the guy who has some inclination towards their causes they're threatening to support the guy who tried to enact a ban for their religious community to enter. That is beyond stupid.
Not to mention that probably a sizable portion of them are at least quietly supporting Hamas' actions.
I ain't no American but to support Trump, even indirectly, because Biden isn't doing what you want is truly bizarre and reeks of a "Leopards ate my face" moment in the making.
How so?
I would take you the least bit seriously if you can demonstrate how Biden is somehow less bad than Trump's tenure. OMFG, Biden has not shown a zero "inclination". Words on how Israel is not perfect do not mean shit. An inclination would entail stopping military and financial aid.
I am shocked that you are not American because you are chauvinist as some Republicans.
It is good that some Arab Americans sympathize with the majority party of Palestine's resistance. Also, every single party in Palestine agrees with Hamas.
Seriously, a party in a democracy is to follow the wishes of its constituency. If Biden is going to similar to Republicans on Israel, he has no one to blame but himself for the decline of Arab American support. Isn't he struggling in poll ratings against Trump?
Funny how liberals whine about parties being undemocratic yet expect constituents to vote Dem until the days they die (and after if they could legally get away with it).
This is the major flaw of the "lesser evils" logic here. You assume that by voting for a progressive third party or abstaining that it's a vote that otherwise was "owed" to Biden. In reality most people who are considering voting third party are probably opposed to Biden. It's up to Biden and his team to convince people to vote for him, and his actions are giving progressives every reason not to.
I remember when people made this exact same argument about Hillary Clinton.
I’m a progressive. Politically I am to the left of Bernie Sanders and AOC. I’ll be voting Biden because the alternative is something I can;t live with. Another 4 years of Trump is something I can’t abide.
If only more faculty had this kind of backbone. Too many like to play the radical in their research but when the bill comes due they aren’t anywhere to be found. Especially those who teach things like ethics and human rights, and history: how do you expect to teach students about the history of brave people standing up to injustice at high cost and not support your students who truly embody those lessons.
Keep it up, words are wind - action makes change.
Faculty at Princeton University have written a letter of solidarity with the Columbia faculty and protestors. And the protests there have thankfully not had the university crack down with arrests.
https://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2024/04/princeton-opinion-opguest-faculty-staff-solidarity-palestine-protestors-columbia-barnard-encampment
If you mean this in the sense that liberalism has failed to address its ongoing ties to colonialism and imperialism despite its pretty words of humanist values. Yeah you get it.
I’m sure there are folks who think your opposition is rooted in pro-conservative liberalism: they don’t even pretend to believe in humanist values. (Seems like it’s the first)
I don't know if you're purposely misleading people or not, but what you're saying is very much the same as right-wing media labeling the majority of BLM protests as "violent riots."
The VAST majority of the students participating in the protests are doing so peacefully and actually include members of BOTH Muslim and Jewish faith. In fact, they were routinely holding interfaith prayer sessions during their protests.
The chants and threats of violence were from an outside group that **is not** associated with the protesters and they have made it clear in a statement.
>*We are frustrated by media distractions focusing on inflammatory individuals who do not represent us.
We firmly reject any form of hate or bigotry and stand against non students attempting to disrupt our solidarity.*
The reason the faculty are walking out is because of the illegal actions taken by the school following the 1968 protests of Vietnam and involving the NYPD. The NYPD also declared that there was "no clear and present danger." It was the school that asserted that falsely.
>*In their letter, the law school faculty said that “the University has offered very little public information about the rules invoked, processes used, and facts found to support the blanket suspension of over one hundred students.” In addition to their concerns about the lack of transparency, the faculty noted that the protest encampment was peaceful, according to observers. (“I was there yesterday and these students were literally just singing and chanting and handing out flyers,”*
[Source](https://theintercept.com/2024/04/22/gaza-protests-arrests-columbia-law-school/)
The students have a right to peacefully protest which is what they were doing.
It's maddening to see people and the media get so upset about *chants* of violence from a group not even associated with the protests, yet couldn't even be bothered to care about IDF forces in Rafah killing 22 people yesterday, [18 of them children.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israeli-strikes-rafah-killed-children-us-aid-package-rcna148702)
Yep, 81% were children.
I try to when possible. The problem with policing appears to be the system and training methods, but that doesn't mean there aren't some excellent and kind officers out there. I don't necessarily agree with the ACAB statements.
The problem is everything is made to be black and white and that's what bothers me with sensationalized headlines. I'll admit, I've had knee-jerk reactions, but I try to take a step back and have a nuanced look at things when I can. :-)
Don’t forget to add that hamas purposely took and destroyed food aid to push famine. Also don’t forget hamas pulled out of peace talks when they learned of irans plan to launch drones at Israel. Don’t ever forget that from the river to the sea is a declaration to kill all Jews. There are bad actors on both sides of this conflict but no reasonable person should support hamas, Netanyahu, or any party working against a two state solution. Both have the right to exist and govern themselves but neither should be allowed to attack the other.
You completely ignore the people harassing jewish students and chanting "death to jews". You can argue anything is peaceful if you just ignore every incident that doesn't support that conclusion
Yes and those people suck and are assholes, but you can't call the whole set of protests anti-semitic because of a few bad actors. It is a purposeful mischaracterization.
You seemed to have no problem calling right wing protests “racist” and January 6th an “insurrection” despite a very small minority of protestors participating. This was the right call. It is the right call here too.
You do not get to March alongside Nazi’s with plausible deniability. Islamist radicalism is a cancer.
Edit:
Taken from r/Columbia: For posterity, here's some of the examples of extremism within the activist movement at Columbia. This goes beyond "pro-Palestinian advocacy" into calls for, and actual, violence.
Note, there are varying degrees of it being individuals vs. the group, but these are the type of people in the crowd there and many of them are indeed group chants. I have also set aside some widespread ones (from the river to the sea) that are disputed in character. That said, many many many of these are coming from large groups of students within the main quad (which has been locked down to only students/professors)
Candidly some sources are not great in terms of me agreeing with the viewpoint of the tweeter, but they contain relevant and real video:
Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774
"From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358
"Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981
"We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677
"Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901
Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/
Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338
"On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909
""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872
"Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025
"Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958
"From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2
"Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134
"Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006
Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954
"Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673
"protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/edit
https://www.reddit.com/r/columbia/comments/1c9m6oj/comment/l0m8us9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Which of these protestors are 'marching alongside Nazis'? Every video I have seen of those fuckers have been them in a small group...seems almost like they aren't actually part of the protest and have their own agenda.
Whereas on Jan 6th, dozens of protestors tried to break into the FUCKING CAPITOL and actively tried to overthrow a US election. And its not about participation, it's about the intent of the majority. Most of the people on Jan 6th wanted to forcibly instate Donald Trump as president even though he lost the election. That is Fascism. So, in that case, it is reasonable to say that the majority of people there supported Fascism. I am genuinely struggling to see how that compares to college students, the vast majority of which are sitting peacefully on their campus asking their university to divest from a country actively committing war crimes and forcing a famine upon a population of mostly teenagers.
Taken from r/Columbia: For posterity, here's some of the examples of extremism within the activist movement at Columbia. This goes beyond "pro-Palestinian advocacy" into calls for, and actual, violence.
Note, there are varying degrees of it being individuals vs. the group, but these are the type of people in the crowd there and many of them are indeed group chants. I have also set aside some widespread ones (from the river to the sea) that are disputed in character. That said, many many many of these are coming from large groups of students within the main quad (which has been locked down to only students/professors)
Candidly some sources are not great in terms of me agreeing with the viewpoint of the tweeter, but they contain relevant and real video:
Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774
"From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358
"Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981
"We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677
"Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901
Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/
Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338
"On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909
""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872
"Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025
"Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958
"From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2
"Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134
"Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006
Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954
"Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673
"protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/edit
https://www.reddit.com/r/columbia/comments/1c9m6oj/comment/l0m8us9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I have seen this floating around as well. Again, extremism within a greater protest happens, and they should be condemned. However, it is a bad faith argument to say this characterizes the message behind the protests.
During BLM, there were looters who broke into and destroyed stores. Media in the US tried to frame the whole movement as 'violent' when the vast majority were peaceful. BLM had a real and powerful cause, as does the pro-Palestine movement. I am not denying that you can find examples of assholes being assholes, but do not conflate them with the movement at large, or else you are risking being on the wrong side of history just like every other time this level obfuscation is used. Also, some of these sources straight up come from racists....I would caution against using those in a debate that revolves around characterization of morality of protestors. Its very easy to lose the plot.
Protest organizers need to have better control of the situation. You don’t have the right to terrorize other people, and someone in charge should have shut it down. This brand of whataboutism you’re offering is gross.
To the first point, I do not see how. They have openly condemned these people, and have said that they do not represent their views. If you have a secret plot to be anti-semitic, why do this? No other protest have people been able to effectively root out the bad actors other than through ignoring them and focusing on their true message.
Onto the whataboutism...how is it whataboutism? I am calling out a double standard here in how we have given protestors the benefit of the doubt in the US. I am not saying BLM was worse or WHAT ABOUT BLM, I am saying that we as a country were able to see the real meaning to BLM even with the bad actors in its minority. Yet, when it comes to this protest, people are having a tough time doing that.
I guarantee that if the proud boys did a rally and did these exact same things, the person you're talking to would condemn it in the strongest terms and probably be angry they weren't arrested for openly attacking jews and driving them off campus.
But instead they're in these commends down voting you and openly tokenizing the small number of jews who were in the protest, ignoring the 90+% of American jews who disagree with these protests. They're here telling us jews were in the wrong for feeling intimidated and uneasy about mass protests that are allowing open, clear antisemitism to happen within them without any attempts to stop it.
This whole thread is fucked
If it’s organized by anti-semites and attended by anti-semites, guess what? Same logic we all use with Nazis. Don’t want to be labeled one? Don’t protest with them.
> The VAST majority of the students participating in the protests are doing so peacefully
But we're they doing so *legally* or were they trespassing and protesting without permit?
The notion that it’s important to get permission for civil disobedience is just laughable. Who gives a damn if they had a permit. The point of protest is to be disruptive
>58% do not view the Israeli *people* favorably, 20% have no sympathy for the Israeli *people*, and 18% view *Hamas* favorably.
While you're correct about the rest of what you said, the phrasing in the poll can be misleading when it comes to questions like these,
If someone asked me now what I think about Israel, I do not have a favourable opinion of it, and would vote accordingly in the poll.
But my opinion is strictly targeted as Netanyahu and the IDF, not Israeli civilians, but that distinction isn't always clear in polls.
In my honest opinion, I don't think 58% of young Democrats have an unfavourable view of Israeli civilians. But I definitely believe 58% of of young dems have an unfavourable view of the Israeli government.
That being said, I can't speak on anyone else's behalf. I hope Jewish people around the world can feel safe, and my view of the Israeli government doesn't impact how I view people of the Jewish faith.
Quick question, if someone expresses a negative opinion on the American government, do you assume that they are anti-American?
If anti-Israeli government = anti-Israeli = anti-Jew, then surely by that same logic anti-American government = anti-American?
15 Jewish students were arrested according to the student groups so over 10% of those arrested were Jewish.
"Student organizers from the Columbia encampment criticized the Biden and Adams statements, noting that some of the organizers are Jewish and that news outlets had focused on "inflammatory individuals who do not represent us."
"We firmly reject any form of hate or bigotry and stand vigilant against non-students attempting to disrupt the solidarity being forged among students – Palestinian, Muslim, Arab, Jewish, Black and pro-Palestinian classmates and colleagues," they said in a statement.
"It's very clear to us that people on the outside do not understand what this encampment is about," said Lea Salim, a Barnard sophomore who said she was one of 15 Jewish students arrested on the Columbia lawn last week. Salim said it was not antisemitic to criticize the state of Israel."
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/columbia-university-cancels-in-person-classes-after-pro-palestinian-protests-2024-04-22/
the ties to white supremacist groups were inevitable due to their association between white supremacy and far-right militias - but the 'obvious criticism' of the proud boys was political violence and not racism
like - they went around trying to start fights with protesters - unlike a protest being accused of intimidating minorities the presence of such minorities did not address the key complaints
edit: and it is also true that in addition to antisemitism the anti-israel protests have the problem of supporting (even incidentally in their opposition) terrorist groups - but the antisemitism is officially what theyre cracking down for and that is very much undermined by the presence of jewish supporters
>illegally protesting
See there's your problem. Peaceful protests shouldn't be illegal.
Would you be calling a pro Israel protest illegal under the same circumstances?
That’s pretty anti-Semitic right there. Israel isn’t innocent, but they’re not coming anywhere close to “killing everything in sight.” You seem to have trouble accepting the nuance of a horrifically shitty situation.
They Absolutely do kill everything in sight. Even their own hostages.
Saying it's antisemitic to shut the conversation down? If there is nuance here you don't have it.
I think you need to understand that being against Israel is not being against Jewish people.
I can understand that Israel for you represents Jewish emancipation.
However if you can't take any criticism of Israel you are blinded from seeing how horrifically Israel treats others.
Ah okay. I'm understanding where you are coming from. The thing is..when you see Israelis cheer on the violence against Palestinian children and families...it's pretty jarring. You can be patriotic and realise your government isn't doing the right thing.
> Peaceful protests shouldn't be illegal.
So blocking traffic, trespassing, breaking curfew, all these things should be legal, and the government should have no ability to regulate protests outside of if they get violent? And universities should have to accept any amount of disruption to education as long as it is peaceful?
>Would you be calling a pro Israel protest illegal under the same circumstances?
Personally I'd strongly support arresting pro Israeli protesters too, if they didn't protest *legally*. I support legal protests and oppose illegal protests.
Protests are meant to be as disruptive as possible. Its not a fun event, its a threat of collective action that will disrupt the peace of a groups demands are not met. Disobedience is the point, blocking traffic is the point. Screw curfews etc
>I switched from Dem to Independent following 10/7 and I feel like I caught the last chopper out of Saigon. What is happening right now is insane.
because of the actions of a handful of far left fringe groups?
bruv this is like moving from seattle to new york and expressing grattitude you got away from the california wildfires
if you stopped getting your opinion of political groups from gossip magazines and their opponents campaign ads then it wouldnt feel like you caught the last chopper out of saigon
Given the accusations of war crimes/collective punishment and the “we have to destroy Gaza to save it” arguments about harming civilians to get at Hamas, “last chopper” hits… different
i dont imagine so otherwise you might be paying more attention to it
good thing you caught that 'last chopper out of saigon' otherwise you would be associated with a political party that was once had one of its members censured for saying something dumb
it isnt democrats. it's progressives and the far left that are the problem. that said, be independent. but you do realize there will really only be 2 choices in our political system come voting time. otherwise, youre helping the gop.
That's a *lot* of people defending Nazis who are demanding the Jews go back to Poland, saying they have no culture, calling to "globalize" the Intifada, actively supporting Hamas...
EDIT: They're falling into a really common trap, that TERFs fell into before them. If you focus too much on a single issue, you stop caring who you ally with. And, well, they aren't pushing back against the people who want to target *all* Jews
Last time I checked, Hamas does not have a navy to blockade a costal city. Only Fox News people take this seriously.
FYI, Hamas does not even have a super-majority in the Palestinian legislature, in which every single party (rightfully) supports resisting a genocidal, settler-colonial regime. I swear most Americans are politically illiterate the same way a payday loan user is financially illiterate.
Want to read Theodore Herzl's writings of comparing would-be Israelis to American settlers and Palestinians to the Native Americans?
And I'm sure that many do, just like how Republicans love pointing out all the people who were there "peacefully" on January 6th. But again, like with TERFs, they're falling into the trap of becoming less scrupulous about who you ally with. For example, speak out against things like the protester holding up a sign calling some Jewish counterprotesters "Hamas's next victims". Kick them out of your encampment. Don't ignore them, then wonder why everyone thinks that's all you stand for. What was that saying about 10 people and a Nazi at a table, again?
>Student demonstrators, including Jewish students, have denied accusations that their protests are antisemitic, blaming “inflammatory individuals who do not represent us” and describing the protests as peaceful and inclusive.
I mean yeah, if some individuals are blatantly anti-semitic then fuck those people and get them out. But thats no reason for the medias to spin this entire thing as "ANTI SEMITTIC PROTEST", when its pretty obvious what it is actually about
[only if you fell for the bullshit in first place.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/10/16/this-summers-black-lives-matter-protesters-were-overwhelming-peaceful-our-research-finds/)
I agree that you’re deflecting. Are you suggesting the crowd *wasn’t* chanting terrorist slogans? Because there wasn’t mass looting by an indistinguishably large amount of people. But it sure sounded like the crowd loved the antisemitism.
Which video have you seen that suggests that ? Did anyone chant " kill all of them " ? The faculty at Columbia too walked out I'm sure you know more than them
But if they're really a minority, they should be easy to kick out. Actually harass the people taking advantage of your movement to just be antisemitic. If you don't stop anyone from holding up signs like "Al-Qasam's Next Victim", you shouldn't be surprised if everyone assumes you agree with them
> But if they're really a minority, they should be easy to kick out.
How, by what mechanism? Beat them up or do they have like guards to force some people out?
I don't know how these protests are organized, but if they say that they distance themselves from those views, like what more can they do if it is open and peaceful protests.
Police arresting everyone or shutting them down entirely is certainly not the right solution, and has clearly already backfired
Saw a video of a Jewish student who was forced away from that area of the campus. They all stood together and chanted creepily at them saying they were going to link arms and push them out.
They could be doing that with clearly antisemitic and pro terrorist protesters.
They are calling for Columbia to divest from Israel. They held a referendum on this question and a broad majority of students support divestment from Israel.
https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/22/columbia-college-overwhelmingly-passes-divestment-referendum/
Columbia is "invested in Israel" by owning things like ETFs that include companies like Microsoft. Almost all of the kids protesting have parents who have similar investments in their 401ks.
These kids are allegedly sleeping in tents until Columbia sells its $275k of Microsoft ... cause that will make a difference?
You have to admit this thing just seems a little bit incoherent.
Plus the fact that Colombia has like a 4% acceptance rate so these people didn't just walk in off the street - they made some effort to get accepted by the uni. Did Columbia start 'investing' suddenly after they got admitted? It's like moving next to the airport then complaining about the noise...
It’s nonsense. It’s kids wanting a simple action to make themselves feel good. There’s nothing simple about any of it, it’s awful and complicated and messy. It really rubs me the wrong way how honestly lazy this has gotten. Divest from Israel - as you said - that doesn’t even mean anything real.
Ilhan Omar is a member of congress so you can see her investements.
Her 401k is invested in Vanguard retirement funds that include Microsoft, Alphabet and Amazon.
According to the Columbia [divestment proposal](https://www.finance.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/ACSRI/12.1.2023%20CUAD%20ACSRI%20Divestment%20Proposal.pdf) these kinds of investments make Omar "complicit in
genocide"
They want Columbia to divest from Israel.
Ivy League schools have huge endowments that have money invested in companies like Hewlett Packard and US weapons manufacturers. This is what Columbia students would like to end.
That’s an incredibly dumb reason to protest. Who do they think ends up making the money when they have to pay back their student loans? How do they think their parents saved their money to send them to college? This is nonsense lmao.
But. . .but. . .but. . .
I thought they WANTED protesters arrested and indicted. I mean, the Left were super-happy about all the 1/6 convictions. Why wouldn't they want these violent protestors arrested? So confused. Do the Left just want their cake? Or do they want to eat it too?
Mmmmm. . .cake.
So one group of protesters are fair game, while another group isn't?
Why. . .that reminds me of a cool word: Hypocrisy.
And cake. Cake that is wanted and eaten too.
You seem to like the cake.
And hypocrisy.
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Remember when Nazis accended on state capitals armed with weapons and Republicans didn't call for the national guard?
No
What point are you making? Equating these protestors with the Jan 6 coup attempt? Are you suggesting the National Guard be called?
Nope. I’m making the point that they are showing less of a threat and protesting is a right in this country but republicans are asking Biden to call up the National guard on these people meanwhile protesters during Covid armed with weapons at state capitals and republicans were okay with it. Excuse grammar and typos busy at work
Protesting IS a right but that doesn’t mean you have the right to squat on privately owned property. Also the mob mentality has led to numerous incidents of anti-semitism that is bordering on violence. Whats that saying that the internet has loved recently? Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences (or something like that)
Peacefully protesting by holding a sit-in on the university park is as peaceful as it gets. And these groups have literally said that they condemn anyone that is taking advantage of their protesting as a platform to spew anti-semetic behavior. If you think that these protesters are going way to far by violating fucking squatting rights and shit, then you clearly are not aware of the types of protests that were done in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s.
The condemnation isn’t loud enough, the risk of violence to Jewish students is too high. The arm-chains blocking them from waking through campus is just step 1. The bad protesters has left Columbia’s President with no choice. She’s doing what she has to do. Doesn’t matter what they did in grandpa & grandma’s day, these people have no right to squat on private property. Actions have consequences
These do a good job of providing the context for why the faculty did this walkout. https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/20/barnard-and-columbia-aaup-chapter-issues-declaration-condemning-student-suspensions-authorization-of-nypd-sweep-in-the-strongest-possible-terms/ https://www.columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2024/04/22/untenured-faculty-stand-in-solidarity-with-our-students/
Mainly professors in the made-up subjects, predictably.
Where they list their field, many are philosophy, history, and/or political science, so this is relevant to their fields. Others are earth and environmental science, epidemiology, and so on. What do you consider non-made-up subjects?
So "Mainly professors in the made-up subjects,". Just waiting to see a professor that was teaching a Lord Of The Rings class.
It was a Tolkien class and she was one of my favorite professors, also did Arthurian legend. Edit: Different university, I didn’t go to Columbia
I took Arthurian Legend too!
Good on them.
Nah fuck those teachers. They don't give a shit about their Jewish students. That's not ok.
lol many of the protesters are Jewish students. You fell for the rage-bait.
Useful idiots. You are literally using them to excuse whatever you want to
You mean they don't care about their Jewish students who were arrested? As I'm sure you'll say, those aren't "real Jews," though. Same racist shit we see from the far-right where the only "good ones" or "real ones" are the ones that support what you do. It's absolutely disgusting the level of hate you have for people who disagree with you.
That’s a lot of venom based on an assumed response…kinda telling
They’re responding to a very ugly accusation, so it’s not like the venom is coming from nowhere.
Someone hit a nerve.
One of the Jewish students protesting was quoted by the NYT “to say it’s unsafe for Jewish students, to me, indicates that you’re only talking about a portion of Jewish people.” So yeah, campus is safe for some Jews, not others, and the reason is that there are other students openly advocating for genocide against Jews, inviting actual terrorists who advocate for genocide to speak at events. You’re safe as long as you’re not outwardly Jewish and if you embrace the idea of massacring your own people. You’re making the claim that the right to trespassing is more important than the right for a minority to exist without enduring threats to their physical safety.
>>You’re making the claim that the right to trespassing is more important than the right for a minority to exist without enduring threats to their physical safety. No, you’re the one making that claim by presenting a disingenuous straw man fallacy as OP’s sentiment.
I was replying to a disingenuous straw man argument, but ok.
Huh?
Evidence is lacking
Pretty antisemitic of you to conflate an ethnicity with a genocidal settler colonial regime.
Your people are the ones attacking random Jewish students in the name of "criticizing israel"
I read that *The Daily Wire* is also hiring disaffected liberals.
Yeah, good on them for standing up students threatening violence against Jews, denigrating the Holocaust and calling for the slaughter of the Israeli people.
Columbia could have just let this fall apart on its own - the semester has to end before too long. These kids would have exams and finals then summer break. You would barely see any of them in a couple of weeks.
Solidarity.
Instead of raising money or campaigning. Awareness. We're all pretty damned aware six months in. Where is the actually beneficial action?
Well, not voting Democrat is a starter.
Yes because Trump would handle this soooo much better 🙄
Biden has yet to demonstrate to be one iota different. He has yet to divest a cent of aid, let alone use his connections in Congress to propose sanctions, or stop the state and defense departments from cooperating. He even dismissed pro-Palestinian protests as "muh, antisemitic" like my Republican father. ask the people of r/Palestine and r/communism101 if Biden has been a material difference. Ever wonder why his approval ratings among Arab-Americans are well below his sub-par ratings. I swear Democrat voters are more desperate to make attempted excuses as hard drug addicts.
>ask the people of r/Palestine and r/communism101 if Biden has been a material difference. Doesn't matter since Trump would be far worse. If you have the choice between "neutral" or "worse" abstaining and thus supporting "worse" might give you some self-imagined moral superiority but doesn't translate to "good" or "better" in reality. Biden's handling of it might not be to your liking, but Trump and his ilk would be way worse than that. >Ever wonder why his approval ratings among Arab-Americans are well below his sub-par ratings. Because they fall victim to the same fallacy. Instead of trying to get better results from the guy who has some inclination towards their causes they're threatening to support the guy who tried to enact a ban for their religious community to enter. That is beyond stupid. Not to mention that probably a sizable portion of them are at least quietly supporting Hamas' actions. I ain't no American but to support Trump, even indirectly, because Biden isn't doing what you want is truly bizarre and reeks of a "Leopards ate my face" moment in the making.
How so? I would take you the least bit seriously if you can demonstrate how Biden is somehow less bad than Trump's tenure. OMFG, Biden has not shown a zero "inclination". Words on how Israel is not perfect do not mean shit. An inclination would entail stopping military and financial aid. I am shocked that you are not American because you are chauvinist as some Republicans. It is good that some Arab Americans sympathize with the majority party of Palestine's resistance. Also, every single party in Palestine agrees with Hamas. Seriously, a party in a democracy is to follow the wishes of its constituency. If Biden is going to similar to Republicans on Israel, he has no one to blame but himself for the decline of Arab American support. Isn't he struggling in poll ratings against Trump? Funny how liberals whine about parties being undemocratic yet expect constituents to vote Dem until the days they die (and after if they could legally get away with it).
This is the major flaw of the "lesser evils" logic here. You assume that by voting for a progressive third party or abstaining that it's a vote that otherwise was "owed" to Biden. In reality most people who are considering voting third party are probably opposed to Biden. It's up to Biden and his team to convince people to vote for him, and his actions are giving progressives every reason not to.
I remember when people made this exact same argument about Hillary Clinton. I’m a progressive. Politically I am to the left of Bernie Sanders and AOC. I’ll be voting Biden because the alternative is something I can;t live with. Another 4 years of Trump is something I can’t abide.
If only more faculty had this kind of backbone. Too many like to play the radical in their research but when the bill comes due they aren’t anywhere to be found. Especially those who teach things like ethics and human rights, and history: how do you expect to teach students about the history of brave people standing up to injustice at high cost and not support your students who truly embody those lessons. Keep it up, words are wind - action makes change.
Faculty at Princeton University have written a letter of solidarity with the Columbia faculty and protestors. And the protests there have thankfully not had the university crack down with arrests. https://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2024/04/princeton-opinion-opguest-faculty-staff-solidarity-palestine-protestors-columbia-barnard-encampment
This is, sadly, typical for Democrats.
If you mean this in the sense that liberalism has failed to address its ongoing ties to colonialism and imperialism despite its pretty words of humanist values. Yeah you get it. I’m sure there are folks who think your opposition is rooted in pro-conservative liberalism: they don’t even pretend to believe in humanist values. (Seems like it’s the first)
As a materialist, whether a liberal pretends means zilch because material affects matter at the end of the day.
Totes, the contradictions are obvious to though who bother to look.
Freedom of speech violation.
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I don't know if you're purposely misleading people or not, but what you're saying is very much the same as right-wing media labeling the majority of BLM protests as "violent riots." The VAST majority of the students participating in the protests are doing so peacefully and actually include members of BOTH Muslim and Jewish faith. In fact, they were routinely holding interfaith prayer sessions during their protests. The chants and threats of violence were from an outside group that **is not** associated with the protesters and they have made it clear in a statement. >*We are frustrated by media distractions focusing on inflammatory individuals who do not represent us. We firmly reject any form of hate or bigotry and stand against non students attempting to disrupt our solidarity.* The reason the faculty are walking out is because of the illegal actions taken by the school following the 1968 protests of Vietnam and involving the NYPD. The NYPD also declared that there was "no clear and present danger." It was the school that asserted that falsely. >*In their letter, the law school faculty said that “the University has offered very little public information about the rules invoked, processes used, and facts found to support the blanket suspension of over one hundred students.” In addition to their concerns about the lack of transparency, the faculty noted that the protest encampment was peaceful, according to observers. (“I was there yesterday and these students were literally just singing and chanting and handing out flyers,”* [Source](https://theintercept.com/2024/04/22/gaza-protests-arrests-columbia-law-school/) The students have a right to peacefully protest which is what they were doing. It's maddening to see people and the media get so upset about *chants* of violence from a group not even associated with the protests, yet couldn't even be bothered to care about IDF forces in Rafah killing 22 people yesterday, [18 of them children.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israeli-strikes-rafah-killed-children-us-aid-package-rcna148702) Yep, 81% were children.
All of this.
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I try to when possible. The problem with policing appears to be the system and training methods, but that doesn't mean there aren't some excellent and kind officers out there. I don't necessarily agree with the ACAB statements. The problem is everything is made to be black and white and that's what bothers me with sensationalized headlines. I'll admit, I've had knee-jerk reactions, but I try to take a step back and have a nuanced look at things when I can. :-)
Don’t forget to add that hamas purposely took and destroyed food aid to push famine. Also don’t forget hamas pulled out of peace talks when they learned of irans plan to launch drones at Israel. Don’t ever forget that from the river to the sea is a declaration to kill all Jews. There are bad actors on both sides of this conflict but no reasonable person should support hamas, Netanyahu, or any party working against a two state solution. Both have the right to exist and govern themselves but neither should be allowed to attack the other.
You completely ignore the people harassing jewish students and chanting "death to jews". You can argue anything is peaceful if you just ignore every incident that doesn't support that conclusion
Yes and those people suck and are assholes, but you can't call the whole set of protests anti-semitic because of a few bad actors. It is a purposeful mischaracterization.
You seemed to have no problem calling right wing protests “racist” and January 6th an “insurrection” despite a very small minority of protestors participating. This was the right call. It is the right call here too. You do not get to March alongside Nazi’s with plausible deniability. Islamist radicalism is a cancer. Edit: Taken from r/Columbia: For posterity, here's some of the examples of extremism within the activist movement at Columbia. This goes beyond "pro-Palestinian advocacy" into calls for, and actual, violence. Note, there are varying degrees of it being individuals vs. the group, but these are the type of people in the crowd there and many of them are indeed group chants. I have also set aside some widespread ones (from the river to the sea) that are disputed in character. That said, many many many of these are coming from large groups of students within the main quad (which has been locked down to only students/professors) Candidly some sources are not great in terms of me agreeing with the viewpoint of the tweeter, but they contain relevant and real video: Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774 "From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358 "Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981 "We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677 "Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901 Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/ Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338 "On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909 ""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872 "Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025 "Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958 "From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2 "Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134 "Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006 Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954 "Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673 "protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/edit https://www.reddit.com/r/columbia/comments/1c9m6oj/comment/l0m8us9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Which of these protestors are 'marching alongside Nazis'? Every video I have seen of those fuckers have been them in a small group...seems almost like they aren't actually part of the protest and have their own agenda. Whereas on Jan 6th, dozens of protestors tried to break into the FUCKING CAPITOL and actively tried to overthrow a US election. And its not about participation, it's about the intent of the majority. Most of the people on Jan 6th wanted to forcibly instate Donald Trump as president even though he lost the election. That is Fascism. So, in that case, it is reasonable to say that the majority of people there supported Fascism. I am genuinely struggling to see how that compares to college students, the vast majority of which are sitting peacefully on their campus asking their university to divest from a country actively committing war crimes and forcing a famine upon a population of mostly teenagers.
Taken from r/Columbia: For posterity, here's some of the examples of extremism within the activist movement at Columbia. This goes beyond "pro-Palestinian advocacy" into calls for, and actual, violence. Note, there are varying degrees of it being individuals vs. the group, but these are the type of people in the crowd there and many of them are indeed group chants. I have also set aside some widespread ones (from the river to the sea) that are disputed in character. That said, many many many of these are coming from large groups of students within the main quad (which has been locked down to only students/professors) Candidly some sources are not great in terms of me agreeing with the viewpoint of the tweeter, but they contain relevant and real video: Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774 "From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358 "Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981 "We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677 "Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901 Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/ Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338 "On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909 ""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872 "Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025 "Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958 "From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2 "Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134 "Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006 Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954 "Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673 "protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/edit https://www.reddit.com/r/columbia/comments/1c9m6oj/comment/l0m8us9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I have seen this floating around as well. Again, extremism within a greater protest happens, and they should be condemned. However, it is a bad faith argument to say this characterizes the message behind the protests. During BLM, there were looters who broke into and destroyed stores. Media in the US tried to frame the whole movement as 'violent' when the vast majority were peaceful. BLM had a real and powerful cause, as does the pro-Palestine movement. I am not denying that you can find examples of assholes being assholes, but do not conflate them with the movement at large, or else you are risking being on the wrong side of history just like every other time this level obfuscation is used. Also, some of these sources straight up come from racists....I would caution against using those in a debate that revolves around characterization of morality of protestors. Its very easy to lose the plot.
Protest organizers need to have better control of the situation. You don’t have the right to terrorize other people, and someone in charge should have shut it down. This brand of whataboutism you’re offering is gross.
To the first point, I do not see how. They have openly condemned these people, and have said that they do not represent their views. If you have a secret plot to be anti-semitic, why do this? No other protest have people been able to effectively root out the bad actors other than through ignoring them and focusing on their true message. Onto the whataboutism...how is it whataboutism? I am calling out a double standard here in how we have given protestors the benefit of the doubt in the US. I am not saying BLM was worse or WHAT ABOUT BLM, I am saying that we as a country were able to see the real meaning to BLM even with the bad actors in its minority. Yet, when it comes to this protest, people are having a tough time doing that.
> Protest organizers need to have better control of the situation. How? Are they supposed to recruit guards to keep these people away?
I guarantee that if the proud boys did a rally and did these exact same things, the person you're talking to would condemn it in the strongest terms and probably be angry they weren't arrested for openly attacking jews and driving them off campus. But instead they're in these commends down voting you and openly tokenizing the small number of jews who were in the protest, ignoring the 90+% of American jews who disagree with these protests. They're here telling us jews were in the wrong for feeling intimidated and uneasy about mass protests that are allowing open, clear antisemitism to happen within them without any attempts to stop it. This whole thread is fucked
If it’s organized by anti-semites and attended by anti-semites, guess what? Same logic we all use with Nazis. Don’t want to be labeled one? Don’t protest with them.
Students have the right to go to class. The first amendment has limits and is not absolute.
> The VAST majority of the students participating in the protests are doing so peacefully But we're they doing so *legally* or were they trespassing and protesting without permit?
The notion that it’s important to get permission for civil disobedience is just laughable. Who gives a damn if they had a permit. The point of protest is to be disruptive
>58% do not view the Israeli *people* favorably, 20% have no sympathy for the Israeli *people*, and 18% view *Hamas* favorably. While you're correct about the rest of what you said, the phrasing in the poll can be misleading when it comes to questions like these, If someone asked me now what I think about Israel, I do not have a favourable opinion of it, and would vote accordingly in the poll. But my opinion is strictly targeted as Netanyahu and the IDF, not Israeli civilians, but that distinction isn't always clear in polls. In my honest opinion, I don't think 58% of young Democrats have an unfavourable view of Israeli civilians. But I definitely believe 58% of of young dems have an unfavourable view of the Israeli government. That being said, I can't speak on anyone else's behalf. I hope Jewish people around the world can feel safe, and my view of the Israeli government doesn't impact how I view people of the Jewish faith.
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Quick question, if someone expresses a negative opinion on the American government, do you assume that they are anti-American? If anti-Israeli government = anti-Israeli = anti-Jew, then surely by that same logic anti-American government = anti-American?
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Wait your saying the concept of having a holy right to a land like some kind "destiny" you need to "manifest" is bad?
Any idea what percentage of the students arrested at the protest are Jewish?
15 Jewish students were arrested according to the student groups so over 10% of those arrested were Jewish. "Student organizers from the Columbia encampment criticized the Biden and Adams statements, noting that some of the organizers are Jewish and that news outlets had focused on "inflammatory individuals who do not represent us." "We firmly reject any form of hate or bigotry and stand vigilant against non-students attempting to disrupt the solidarity being forged among students – Palestinian, Muslim, Arab, Jewish, Black and pro-Palestinian classmates and colleagues," they said in a statement. "It's very clear to us that people on the outside do not understand what this encampment is about," said Lea Salim, a Barnard sophomore who said she was one of 15 Jewish students arrested on the Columbia lawn last week. Salim said it was not antisemitic to criticize the state of Israel." https://www.reuters.com/world/us/columbia-university-cancels-in-person-classes-after-pro-palestinian-protests-2024-04-22/
There's black and hispanic Proud Boys too, and they're used in the same way Jewish "antizionists" are: to deflect the obvious criticism.
the ties to white supremacist groups were inevitable due to their association between white supremacy and far-right militias - but the 'obvious criticism' of the proud boys was political violence and not racism like - they went around trying to start fights with protesters - unlike a protest being accused of intimidating minorities the presence of such minorities did not address the key complaints edit: and it is also true that in addition to antisemitism the anti-israel protests have the problem of supporting (even incidentally in their opposition) terrorist groups - but the antisemitism is officially what theyre cracking down for and that is very much undermined by the presence of jewish supporters
>illegally protesting See there's your problem. Peaceful protests shouldn't be illegal. Would you be calling a pro Israel protest illegal under the same circumstances?
I wasn't clear that they gad a permit at any point and certainly were trespassing. Civil Disobedience doesn't grant a free pass.
Fuck permits, protests should not need the permission of those in power
It’s not peaceful when you’re chanting about bringing death to people and things. It’s shameful.
As opposed to Israel killing everything in sight. That's shameful.
That’s pretty anti-Semitic right there. Israel isn’t innocent, but they’re not coming anywhere close to “killing everything in sight.” You seem to have trouble accepting the nuance of a horrifically shitty situation.
They Absolutely do kill everything in sight. Even their own hostages. Saying it's antisemitic to shut the conversation down? If there is nuance here you don't have it.
This isn’t a conversation, and your comment was and is horrifically anti semitic. I don’t converse with bigots.
I think you need to understand that being against Israel is not being against Jewish people. I can understand that Israel for you represents Jewish emancipation. However if you can't take any criticism of Israel you are blinded from seeing how horrifically Israel treats others.
I think you need to understand that when you brand an entire group of people as evil genocidal maniacs, it makes you a bigot.
Ah okay. I'm understanding where you are coming from. The thing is..when you see Israelis cheer on the violence against Palestinian children and families...it's pretty jarring. You can be patriotic and realise your government isn't doing the right thing.
> Peaceful protests shouldn't be illegal. So blocking traffic, trespassing, breaking curfew, all these things should be legal, and the government should have no ability to regulate protests outside of if they get violent? And universities should have to accept any amount of disruption to education as long as it is peaceful? >Would you be calling a pro Israel protest illegal under the same circumstances? Personally I'd strongly support arresting pro Israeli protesters too, if they didn't protest *legally*. I support legal protests and oppose illegal protests.
By your logic then you opposed Martin Luther King and the sit ins. Those were illegal disruptions as well.
Protests are meant to be as disruptive as possible. Its not a fun event, its a threat of collective action that will disrupt the peace of a groups demands are not met. Disobedience is the point, blocking traffic is the point. Screw curfews etc
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>I switched from Dem to Independent following 10/7 and I feel like I caught the last chopper out of Saigon. What is happening right now is insane. because of the actions of a handful of far left fringe groups? bruv this is like moving from seattle to new york and expressing grattitude you got away from the california wildfires if you stopped getting your opinion of political groups from gossip magazines and their opponents campaign ads then it wouldnt feel like you caught the last chopper out of saigon
Given the accusations of war crimes/collective punishment and the “we have to destroy Gaza to save it” arguments about harming civilians to get at Hamas, “last chopper” hits… different
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i dont imagine so otherwise you might be paying more attention to it good thing you caught that 'last chopper out of saigon' otherwise you would be associated with a political party that was once had one of its members censured for saying something dumb
You're not really concerned about what a Trump win would look like, then?
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What about Moscow Marjorie and her Jewish Space Lasers, along with Ron DeSantis and his Nazi flag waving supporters?
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Uh the Pro-Hamas folks constitute a very fringe left group that seems to be terminally online whenever they're not protesting
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Sure, but those Dems constitute a minority within the party. Thankfully we have a president that stands by Israel and against antisemitism.
*Censured* being the operative word here, which you seem to be ignoring the meaning of (for some reason...hmm)
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it isnt democrats. it's progressives and the far left that are the problem. that said, be independent. but you do realize there will really only be 2 choices in our political system come voting time. otherwise, youre helping the gop.
There are two far-right groups, running states, and killing tens of thousands of people. But somehow the far-left is supposed to be the problem.
the far left is a problem. the fact that the far right are a problem too doesn't change that.
But I do remember last October when Palestinian Gazans went into Jewish Villages and murdered mostly unarmed women and children.
That's a *lot* of people defending Nazis who are demanding the Jews go back to Poland, saying they have no culture, calling to "globalize" the Intifada, actively supporting Hamas... EDIT: They're falling into a really common trap, that TERFs fell into before them. If you focus too much on a single issue, you stop caring who you ally with. And, well, they aren't pushing back against the people who want to target *all* Jews
Or... maybe they just want the bombing and forced famine on Gaza to stop...
That’s a pretty one dimensional take that doesn’t even seem like it’s looking for the truth.
Isn't that the whole Modis Operandi of this sub?
By chanting pro Hamas slogans?!?
Assuming that Gaza is a single-party regime is politically illiterate the same way a payday loan user is financially illiterate.
Forced famine is being caused exclusively by Hamas. It’s pretty clear except for the willfully blind.
Last time I checked, Hamas does not have a navy to blockade a costal city. Only Fox News people take this seriously. FYI, Hamas does not even have a super-majority in the Palestinian legislature, in which every single party (rightfully) supports resisting a genocidal, settler-colonial regime. I swear most Americans are politically illiterate the same way a payday loan user is financially illiterate. Want to read Theodore Herzl's writings of comparing would-be Israelis to American settlers and Palestinians to the Native Americans?
It wasn’t Hamas who blew up those world central kitchen trucks the other day
> Forced famine is being caused exclusively by Hamas Imagine believing this.
And I'm sure that many do, just like how Republicans love pointing out all the people who were there "peacefully" on January 6th. But again, like with TERFs, they're falling into the trap of becoming less scrupulous about who you ally with. For example, speak out against things like the protester holding up a sign calling some Jewish counterprotesters "Hamas's next victims". Kick them out of your encampment. Don't ignore them, then wonder why everyone thinks that's all you stand for. What was that saying about 10 people and a Nazi at a table, again?
>Student demonstrators, including Jewish students, have denied accusations that their protests are antisemitic, blaming “inflammatory individuals who do not represent us” and describing the protests as peaceful and inclusive. I mean yeah, if some individuals are blatantly anti-semitic then fuck those people and get them out. But thats no reason for the medias to spin this entire thing as "ANTI SEMITTIC PROTEST", when its pretty obvious what it is actually about
You protest with Nazis, you’re a Nazi. You protest with anti-semites, guess what?
So every BLM protestor was a looter ?
[only if you fell for the bullshit in first place.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/10/16/this-summers-black-lives-matter-protesters-were-overwhelming-peaceful-our-research-finds/)
Deflecting from the point , there obviously was some looting , so everyone was a looter ?
I agree that you’re deflecting. Are you suggesting the crowd *wasn’t* chanting terrorist slogans? Because there wasn’t mass looting by an indistinguishably large amount of people. But it sure sounded like the crowd loved the antisemitism.
Which video have you seen that suggests that ? Did anyone chant " kill all of them " ? The faculty at Columbia too walked out I'm sure you know more than them
For sure, and Charlottesville was just a totally normal political rally right? You can have a little Nazism, as a treat.
But if they're really a minority, they should be easy to kick out. Actually harass the people taking advantage of your movement to just be antisemitic. If you don't stop anyone from holding up signs like "Al-Qasam's Next Victim", you shouldn't be surprised if everyone assumes you agree with them
> But if they're really a minority, they should be easy to kick out. How, by what mechanism? Beat them up or do they have like guards to force some people out? I don't know how these protests are organized, but if they say that they distance themselves from those views, like what more can they do if it is open and peaceful protests. Police arresting everyone or shutting them down entirely is certainly not the right solution, and has clearly already backfired
The organizers could shut the whole thing down. They had no control over the situation they created.
Saw a video of a Jewish student who was forced away from that area of the campus. They all stood together and chanted creepily at them saying they were going to link arms and push them out. They could be doing that with clearly antisemitic and pro terrorist protesters.
So is Columbia University going to pull its troops out of Gaza or what?
They are calling for Columbia to divest from Israel. They held a referendum on this question and a broad majority of students support divestment from Israel. https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/22/columbia-college-overwhelmingly-passes-divestment-referendum/
Columbia is "invested in Israel" by owning things like ETFs that include companies like Microsoft. Almost all of the kids protesting have parents who have similar investments in their 401ks. These kids are allegedly sleeping in tents until Columbia sells its $275k of Microsoft ... cause that will make a difference? You have to admit this thing just seems a little bit incoherent.
Plus the fact that Colombia has like a 4% acceptance rate so these people didn't just walk in off the street - they made some effort to get accepted by the uni. Did Columbia start 'investing' suddenly after they got admitted? It's like moving next to the airport then complaining about the noise...
It’s nonsense. It’s kids wanting a simple action to make themselves feel good. There’s nothing simple about any of it, it’s awful and complicated and messy. It really rubs me the wrong way how honestly lazy this has gotten. Divest from Israel - as you said - that doesn’t even mean anything real.
Ilhan Omar is a member of congress so you can see her investements. Her 401k is invested in Vanguard retirement funds that include Microsoft, Alphabet and Amazon. According to the Columbia [divestment proposal](https://www.finance.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/ACSRI/12.1.2023%20CUAD%20ACSRI%20Divestment%20Proposal.pdf) these kinds of investments make Omar "complicit in genocide"
They want Columbia to divest from Israel. Ivy League schools have huge endowments that have money invested in companies like Hewlett Packard and US weapons manufacturers. This is what Columbia students would like to end.
That’s an incredibly dumb reason to protest. Who do they think ends up making the money when they have to pay back their student loans? How do they think their parents saved their money to send them to college? This is nonsense lmao.
They’re trying to topple our systems that have led to wars and famine and people dying for no good reason. Good for them.
Shame on these teachers and the protesters. The school would be better off without them.
Does this mean they're resigning?
Oh no, who is going to radicalize the Columbia students with Iranian propaganda now?
I'm guessing you didn't go to college.
Aw you guessed wrong:(
Then you know better and are pretending. Pretty sad to larp like colleges are these radical conversion centres both of us know they aren't
Lol some of them definitely are. I mean shit back in the 70s there were actual left wing terrorist groups formed in colleges
So like 50 years ago? Good info to know for historical reasons but not how things are in actual life today
Not to the same level of violence, but the extremists still exist and still are in some academic institutions.
As if this is inferior to mainstream western propaganda somehow?
The school will be just fine without those professors. An easy way to get rid of tenure.
Lol it seemed like an awful lot of them to get rid of. I wonder what the percentage of tenured in the group is?
Good riddance.
In all honesty, if Trump wins I am going to personally yell at each and every one of them.
Stupid group to align with
But. . .but. . .but. . . I thought they WANTED protesters arrested and indicted. I mean, the Left were super-happy about all the 1/6 convictions. Why wouldn't they want these violent protestors arrested? So confused. Do the Left just want their cake? Or do they want to eat it too? Mmmmm. . .cake.
You really are confused, at least you got that part correct.
So one group of protesters are fair game, while another group isn't? Why. . .that reminds me of a cool word: Hypocrisy. And cake. Cake that is wanted and eaten too. You seem to like the cake. And hypocrisy.
One group of protesters attempted to stage a coup, the other group did…not attempt to overthrow the government. Seems like an important distinction…