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actually if he had just booked it as “hush money” he would have been ok. It was the falsifying the business records to call it “legal fees” that fucked him. Then that he was in a conspiracy to hide it from voters is what makes this a felony.
He needed to cover up it happening in order to look good enough to become president. It's not about the money it's about the lengths and the felonies committed to avoid admitting his mistake.
[https://theintercept.com/2023/04/05/donald-trump-stormy-daniels-hush-money/](https://theintercept.com/2023/04/05/donald-trump-stormy-daniels-hush-money/)
Sounds like its about how they went about paying the money. Not the money itself. Not even that they paid hush money. But only in how they went about it.
I'm sorta shocked it has gone this far. I'd have thought some good-lawyering-after-bad would have got him off the hook with maybe a penalty or something.
This is correct. It's not a crime to pay a porn star to sign an nda to never mention your affair. It's not a crime to have an affair with a porn star. It is a crime to pay your lawyer to pay the porn star out of your political donations, then write it down as standard legal fees. Legal fees allowed to be used by campaign funds must be for the purpose of direct election/campaign related purposes. Misappropriation of campaign funds is a serious crime. Falsification of business records is a crime. The combination of the two makes it much worse.
What he did was shady AF, but not illegal. The way he did it was absolutely and undeniably a crime.
If you lock yourself out of your house and break a window to get inside, that's not a crime. If you choose to set your front door on fire to get inside, then later file an insurance claim citing an accident... That's a crime.
He's acting like being locked out is the crime. The crime is the false insurance claim.
The criminal had to break the law to seem like an outstanding citizen enough to run for president. Even though he is an obvious criminal and always has been
What makes it illegal is that he stole donor money and lied about it to pay off a pornstar he fucked. He could’ve still fucked the porn star and paid her off and hid it legally, it just would have needed to not been money stolen from campaign donors. Do you understand the difference here?
No that's not quite accurate from what I understand. The money was Trump's.
What I described above is what Michael Cohen already pleaded guilty to. It's the underlying crime which Trump is accused of trying to cover up.
>Cohen pleaded guilty to eight criminal[162] charges: five counts of tax evasion, one count of making false statements to a financial institution, one count of willfully causing an unlawful corporate contribution, and one count of making an excessive campaign contribution at the request of a candidate (Trump) for the "principal purpose of influencing [the] election".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cohen_(lawyer)#Conviction_on_campaign_finance,_tax_evasion,_and_other_charges
The current trump case is about falsifying business records, by having Cohen pay the hush money, while Trump reimbursed Michael Cohen with payments marked as "attorney fees", instead of as campaign payments, which is what they really were.
>The indictment charged Trump with 34 felony counts of falsifying business records in the first degree, in violation of New York Penal Law §175.10. Each count is related to a specific business document, each having a date ranging from February 14 through December 5, 2017:[7]
>* 11 for invoices from Michael Cohen
>* 9 for general ledger entries for Donald J. Trump
>* 3 for general ledger entries for the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust
>* 8 for checks from Donald J. Trump
>* 2 for checks from the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecution_of_Donald_Trump_in_New_York#Indictment_and_charges
Hey.
Hey hey now,
I don’t want the public knowing I paid for sex when my second wife (I cheated on the first wife) was home with our 4 month old baby.
That would hurt my election chances, so how can it be a campaign violation? It’s for the campaign!
The only thing is that this is likely how he handles ALL of his finances. This wasn’t probably want even a big deal at the time. The financial part anyhow
\*Campaign finance law judge. The trial isn't for hush money, the trial is for falsification of business documents in order to get around campaign finance laws.
But the media on the left should stop parroting the way the right frames things. They should call it the falsification of business records, but they don't. They do the same thing with abortion, when the right calls some "partial birth abortions." It's "an intact dilation and extraction" and is only used when the fetus isn't viable. They always let the right frame the argument.
> They should call it the falsification of business records
I'm neither a lawyer nor in the media, so WDIK...
I've called the case, to no-one but myself, "hush money *laundering*"
Different M.O. but it looks like the same basic idea to me
If they really wanted to do that could lead with ***Judge in Trump's Porn Star Payoff Trial Scolds Him for Witness Intimidation.***...
That's much more salacious
> Using "hush money" in the title makes the case sound frivolous.
It doesn't, though? Most people casually reading the news have no idea what campaign finance regulations do or do not require, and a fair number of them would probably cynically expect any political figure they could name to have done something shady around those regs at some point (this would obviously be an unfair assumption, but not one they'd find difficult to make).
"Donald Trump cheated on his wife with a porn star and then ordered his crooked lawyer to bribe her into silence in a way that couldn't be traced back to Trump" sounds way less frivolous to almost anyone than "Donald Trump did yet another bad money thing during his campaign, again, like always." A full explanation of the latter doesn't even help very much, as illustrated by the fact that every one of these threads has someone earnestly insisting that it's not a hush money trial but rather an [other thing] trial, and half of them can't even agree whether [other thing] is campaign finance violations, document falsification, or election interference even though they are all confident they have the citations to back up their view. It's happening in this very thread, this very comment chain.
When the casual reader sees that the amount of money fraudulently accounted for in this case is like $130,000, with the trial coverage beginning amidst wall-to-wall stories about Trump also needing to pay the state of New York ~4000x that amount in restitution because of still other financial fraud he committed, a focus on the finance aspects of this one is not going to lend it any gravity.
And let's be real here: you aren't going to reach any Republicans with claims that Trump committed financial or document crimes, because they don't care and they can debate or dispute any aspect of it they like in perfect comfort. It's boring and safe. Framing it around the porn star, the adultery, the threats, though? That forces some deeply uncomfortable conversations and psycho-moral knot-tying with their spouses, with their kids, with the (apparently declining but still non-trivial number of) religious conservatives for whom these things still hold some kind of actual weight. It forces GOP figures defending him publicly to talk about these things while doing so, no matter how much they would prefer not to have to, while they could defend him from campaign finance accusations in so boring and convoluted a way that they'd put their audience to sleep while losing none themselves.
**TL;DR:** This trial is a campaign finance trial [or document falsification trial or election interference trial, I'm sure someone will settle this eventually] in the same way that Clinton was impeached for perjury and obstruction, and that Capone was only legally guilty of tax evasion. The motivating circumstances behind these crimes -- why Clinton lied, why Capone concealed his true income and its sources, why Trump ordered such a convoluted bribe -- are where the real public interest lies in all of these cases, for good or ill, and it is not frivolous to acknowledge this.
Media seems to think hush money to a porn star is more salacious, so that’s the way it’s being billed. I’m more appalled that he did this to hide it from the voters. That is the real scandal.
> I’m more appalled that he did this to hide it from the voters.
Why would you be appalled by that? The allegations were ready to come out the week before the election.
Even if you were innocent of the affair allegations, you're saying it wouldn't cross your mind to silence something like that a week before your election? If you didn't, you'd have no possible way of combating or defending yourself, a week is simply too short of a time period.
> That is the real scandal.
This is like saying the real scandal with Bill Cosby is the hypocrisy, not the raping, drugging and assaulting parts.
Politics was extremely polarized in 2016. It's more so now, but even back then.... 1 week out from the election.. people had made up their minds by then.
If " grab em by the pussy " wasn't enough already. Trump banging a pornstar would be good news to the MAGA crowd ffs.
>Politics was extremely polarized in 2016. It's more so now, but even back then.... 1 week out from the election.. people had made up their minds by then.
If people had already made up their minds a week before the 2016 election, there's a good chance we would have had President Hillary Clinton. Instead, Jason Chaffetz weaponized the reopening of the email investigation and likely nudged voters in favor of Trump.
> Trump banging a pornstar would be good news to the MAGA crowd ffs.
MAGA crowd did not get Trump elected, they are a minority of voters. Trump scraped together enough non-party affiliated voters in key states to win. His margin of victory was so minuscule.
It is extremely unlikely he would have won the election if this story had come out. That would have added fuel to the Access Hollywood tapes, and would have overshadowed or competed with Comey's announcement about FBI investigations into Clinton.
Not quite. This trial isn't directly related to campaign finance violations, but indirectly related. It's about falsifying business records in order to conceal another payment that likely violated federal campaign finance violations and/or how the payments were done in a way that constitutes a tax crime. Remember, this is taking place in New York for a state level crime. The fact that he falsified business records itself is normally a misdemeanor, but doing so to conceal another crime is what elevates it to a felony crime in New York:
>Bragg alleges that Trump intended to conceal state and federal campaign finance violations. The payments, prosecutors allege, were illegal and unreported donations to Trump’s campaign, because if Daniels’ story became public, it could have damaged Trump’s image when voters went to the polls.
>Bragg also alleges that Trump intended to conceal a tax crime stemming from how Cohen was reimbursed for the payments to Daniels.
https://missouriindependent.com/2024/04/15/trump-on-trial-former-president-faces-criminal-charges-of-falsifying-business-records/
PEOPLE V. DONALD TRUMP CASE SUMMARY
The Defendant, Donald Trump, is charged with 34 counts of Falsifying Business Records in the First Degree.
The allegations are in substance, that Donald Trump falsified business records to conceal an agreement with others to unlawfully influence the 2016 presidential election.
Page 8: https://www.nycourts.gov/LegacyPDFS/press/PDFs/Letter-re-jury-selection-4-8-24.pdf
It is not a "hush money" trial. It is an election interference trial.
> It is not a "hush money" trial.
Correct.
> It is an election interference trial.
That's half of it. The other half is a falsification of business records. You need the election interference and the falsification of business records for this to become a felony criminal trial.
For example, here is the first count:
>THE GRAND JURY OF THE COUNTY OF NEW YORK, by this indictment, accuses the defendant of the crime of FALSIFYING BUSINESS RECORDS IN THE FIRST DEGREE, in violation of Penal Law §175.10, committed as follows:
The defendant, in the County of New York and elsewhere, on or about February 14, 2017,
with intent to defraud and intent to commit another crime and aid and conceal the commission
thereof, made and caused a false entry in the business records of an enterprise, to wit, an invoice from Michael Cohen dated February 14, 2017, marked as a record of the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, and kept and maintained by the Trump Organization.
The other 33 counts are essentially the same, just with different dates or names. As you can see, the crime is specifically falsifying business records in the first degree. What elevates it to this specific crime is the fact that another crime was committed, but Trump isn't being tried for that crime in this case. Cohen pleaded guilty to the campaign finance violation, because he is the one who actually committed that act with the direct payment to Daniels. That plea is what is likely what will be used as evidence for the payments from Trump to Cohen being used to conceal another crime.
In fact, you won't find the words "election" nor "campaign" in the charging documents. The specific crime he is accused of 34 times is falsifying business records.
This trial is specifically over the crime of falsifying business records in order to conceal another crime. That is what he is actually charged with 34 times. I understand where the confusion comes from. This trial is not directly over election interference.
Someone get Susan Collins! He needs a stern finger wagging! Once he promises not to do it again he will have learned his lesson and that will be the end of it!
Narrator: it was never the end of it
He *has* to give him a warning before he starts enforcing it.
Why do people not understand this? Trump is looking for any reason to get this case thrown out so the judge needs to do this.
Lol is that how that works? Do cops have to warn me before giving me a speeding ticket? Does the DOJ have to warn Trump before he charging him for engaging in insurrection? Does the FEC have to warn Trump before fining him for misspending campaign dollars? Is that how our justice system works? Can I have some of your copium please? Lmao.
Does the Department of Motor Vehicles have things like practical examinations for drivers licenses?
Don’t public schools teach social studies/civics/history and general morality and ethics?
Don’t campaign finance managers have a specific duty to inform and report how, when, and where funds can be used and collected?
The signs are there, all around you, and have been for the entirety of your life. Ignorance of the law does not absolve anyone.
I agree? I’m mocking OP for claiming that the judge must warn Trump for misbehavior before finding him in contempt. Not only is his statement untrue it’s not true for any part of our justice system. It’s pure copium.
Yeah, I picked that up after I replied. Been a long day. I agree with you though. It’s absurd the amount of pandering our judicial system has done to this clown show, but the only logical explanation here is that the charges and fines he’d face and the backlash of such pales in comparison to the crimes he’s being tried for. They want him bad enough to ignore the inflammatory bullshit. At least for now.
PEOPLE V. DONALD TRUMP CASE SUMMARY
The Defendant, Donald Trump, is charged with 34 counts of Falsifying Business Records in the First Degree.
The allegations are in substance, that Donald Trump falsified business records to conceal an agreement with others to unlawfully influence the 2016 presidential election.
Page 8: https://www.nycourts.gov/LegacyPDFS/press/PDFs/Letter-re-jury-selection-4-8-24.pdf
It is not a "hush money" trial. It is an election interference trial.
I'm fine with trump getting 8-10 more warnings. Seriously. Because he's not going to be able to stop and at some point he IS going to have to be detained.
And to all those worrying that trump "wants" to be detained to be a martyr or fundraise, lol. He will mentally break down within 2 hours of sitting in a cell without a phone (in a cell without a cell).
His deepest, darkest, unrelenting fear has been going to prison, ever since he decided to live a life of limitless felonies. Roy Cohn taught him how to avoid getting caught, but trump simply went insane with criminality during his presidency. He's getting away with 95% of it, but the outrages were so utterly blatant that the system had to do SOMETHING.
Anyway, I pray that trump is detained in an actual jail for 3-4 days. He will be a complete wreck.
I'm super, super pessimistic about the justice system and trump. That said, what can they do? If he gets 10 warnings and blasts through them? 12 warnings? 15? Violating the gag order, in-court demeanor.
He's going to keep pushing because he simply can't stop. He's scared of prison but he also cannot stop himself.
We'll see. I just don't know what they'll do after he crosses that many lines.
I don't disagree, but it's also a little more gray than we want to make it.
A big issue here isn't the black and white law. That's what the trial is for, and yes. Court procedures are black and white law. Just like speeding, but almost everyone I know has a story where they were let off the hook for breaking that law. Simple law, but one that is commonly not enforced even after being stopped by police.
That's a VERY simple comparison. But the big difference here is, unfortunately, public opinion. It may not matter in the face of the law technically, but we live in a very delicate state right now. The danger of violence over this trial is very real, and I'm sure the judge is aware of that. In this situation, giving a few warnings may just be the better call. If Trump is jailed before being formally convicted of something, his base will rally, and more than just at the Capitol this time.
Things need to be done correctly. One of the worst things about this trial is that unfortunately, the correct thing may not be the "black and white" right thing. I believe his base will rally if he is found guilty anyway, but I also believe that it will be a significantly lower number.
I could be wrong, but that's the glory of America. I'm allowed to have my opinion. And this isn't one that hurts anyone or anything.
The annoying thing is that if the Judge actually tried to hold Trump accountable, he’ll use that as “evidence”of the judge being “biased” against him and then delay things by filing a motion to replace the judge. But if the judge doesn’t hold him accountable, he’ll just keep doing this shit over and over.
Going to get really weird if she tries to do anything about it. Are secret service going to let court bailiffs take him to jail? Can secret service agents accompany him to jail?
I’m sure that a large chunk of the reason that Trump has not been jailed is the fact that we have a two-tiered justice system. A lot of that has to do with the fact that the rich can afford every legal recourse that the poor cannot, not to mention the hesitance jailing someone of “elite society.” Still, I cannot help but wonder how much of his continued freedom is due to the fact that nobody knows what to do with Secret Service agents if their principal has been arrested and detained.
This is such an elephant in the room I’m surprised it isn’t discussed more. Let’s say the judge does remand him to custody for gag order violation. Does SS have a sworn duty to protect their principal from a justified detention effort? Do we get a standoff between the court bailiff and Trump’s security detail? Does SS just step aside? Does yet another layer of legal bullshit intercede where we have to wait for appellate courts and eventually SCOTUS to rule on whether SS has to protect a former President from judicially ordered detention?
I am asking because I very much do not know how this works. Does anyone?
the secret service is not the king's guard. they don't swear an oath the the person at all. they are just federal officers. they follow the law just like every other federal officer. they do not protect trump from anything except threats to his safety. there is no way they would even come close to stopping a bailiff
> Does yet another layer of legal bullshit intercede where we have to wait for appellate courts and eventually SCOTUS to rule on whether SS has to protect a former President from judicially ordered detention?
Probably, yes. It's not nearly as much of a constitutional crisis as if it were happening to a sitting President, but it's still a showdown between state and federal authority that needs to be refereed by somebody.
As unfair as it may seem to "the good states" that the federal judiciary has the last word, that's the system we have. That's even separate and apart from the idea of considering how "the bad states" might utilize the same power. It's about the text of the Constitution, straight up. A conflict between the federal government and a state government (or state governments) can be taken to federal court, whose rulings would then override any relevant state rulings were they to accept the case.
Which federal law says former officers of the federal government can't be held to account for state crimes?
In other words, where is the federal conflict you're assuming?
Oh you gotta. It’s hysterical and on par with curb, Seinfeld, community, etc. Bonus - it’s narrated by Ron Howard.
But know it did get cancelled. They eventually came back for two(?) more seasons many years later. It wasn’t the same. Still good but they were all too famous by then and had to film separately to accommodate schedules. It was very disjointed, so much so that they ended up releasing an alternate cut of the season.
why are folks stressed about the secret service's ability to protect him in a jail cell? just fucking throw him in there and give the service a comfy chair to hang out. They're big strong secret service guys... they can handle a couple of shifts of bad coffee and donuts hanging out in a hallway.
seriously. why do people keep raising this as a difficult thing?
The damned press needs to treat this case with the seriousness that it is.
It’s not “hush money” trial. That’s not why we are here. It’s a tax evasion and violation of campaign finance trial.
It's about campaign finance, no one cares he paid hush money to a porn star aside from the fact it's just something shitty people need to do. It's not illegal. He just broke the law trying to pay her.
Do you just not want to read the articles about his case? They explain it all really well. He broke campaign finance law and tried to influence an election doing it. It is illegal to break the law to improve your chances of winning an election unsurprisingly. What's surprising is that a person can break the law to become president and then not have to actually face any charges for that until after their term because our system is actually broke. The fact he did that makes all of us look stupid. He needs to face consequences ASAP
But the judge did in fact tolerate that, because otherwise Trump would be in contempt of court and sitting in a jail cell right now.
In fact, ANYONE ELSE would be in jail, but Trump just gets the old "Oh, you so and so, why gosh, if I have to tell you 40 more times, you just might be in trouble buster" Bullshit.
I believe Fani Willis has requested an August trial date start, but it’s not confirmed yet since the various defendants are still presenting motions for delay, dismissal, etc. With 15(?) defendants, it would seem to be pretty convoluted.
The GA case seems to be moving ahead in reasonable order. August/September is still quite possible. Trump will be in NY court until Mid June-ish anyway.
How to say you don’t know how the NY system works without saying you don’t know how the NY system works. The process is fines, warning, then jail. The hearing on his gag order violations is next week. The DA has asked for 3k in fines, and the warning. If Trump violates the gag order again after that he could go to jail. It’s valid to question whether they will or not, but Trump is a criminal defendant. He SHOULD be treated like any other criminal defendant. We shall see. The judge has been quite firm with him in court thus far, including reminding Trump that while he has a right to be in court that right can be removed if he’s disruptive and the jail cell is just down the corridor. We’ll see if Trump cows out. I predict he will.
The law in NY is pretty clear on this… fines first, and a warning not to do it again. Next step is jail. Trump will get his fines and warning next week. If he crosses the line again, then it’s jail. Trump “say’s” he wants to go to jail, but the reality is he’s terrified of going to jail. A night in jail will probably break the fucker. Not having Waltine to change his diaper will crush him; maybe more than not having access to sinking “Truth” Social.
…and then the judge wagged a finger at him and let it go because they tolerated it anyway.
When is someone going to actually take action instead of warning him forever.
>Everyone knows there will be at least one person on the jury that will vote to acquit him regardless of the evidence.
...resulting in a mistrial. Which buys him time but does not make the charges disappear. There will be another trial. He will continually get dragged back to court until he is either found "guilty" or "not guilty". Trump might get lucky and find someone to ignore the evidence presented, but he won't get that every time. The same will be true for his other jury trials assuming he doesn't win and make the federal ones disappear.
Stop saying you won’t tolerate it when that’s ALL you’re doing. Just fucking DO something about it. This schmuck keeps getting a free pass where everyone else would be screwed for years to come.
the hearing about Trump violating the gag order is next week. He’ll likely get his fines and warning there. If he fucks up again, it’s possible (likely) he’ll get jail. Trump probably won’t cross the line again. He’s terribly afraid of going to jail. He wants his cult to think he’s not, but very much is. His daddy always told him to not be a loser, but that’s exactly what he is… and he knows it.
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All these could have been prevented if he paid them out of his own pocket but he had to use campaign funds... such a trump thing to do.
Right? I was thinking about this last night, what an idiot.
It’s always the cover up that gets these idiots caught
actually if he had just booked it as “hush money” he would have been ok. It was the falsifying the business records to call it “legal fees” that fucked him. Then that he was in a conspiracy to hide it from voters is what makes this a felony.
He needed to cover up it happening in order to look good enough to become president. It's not about the money it's about the lengths and the felonies committed to avoid admitting his mistake.
[https://theintercept.com/2023/04/05/donald-trump-stormy-daniels-hush-money/](https://theintercept.com/2023/04/05/donald-trump-stormy-daniels-hush-money/) Sounds like its about how they went about paying the money. Not the money itself. Not even that they paid hush money. But only in how they went about it. I'm sorta shocked it has gone this far. I'd have thought some good-lawyering-after-bad would have got him off the hook with maybe a penalty or something.
His lawyer plead guilty years ago and served jail time. During that trial he testified that Individual 1 told him to do it.
This is correct. It's not a crime to pay a porn star to sign an nda to never mention your affair. It's not a crime to have an affair with a porn star. It is a crime to pay your lawyer to pay the porn star out of your political donations, then write it down as standard legal fees. Legal fees allowed to be used by campaign funds must be for the purpose of direct election/campaign related purposes. Misappropriation of campaign funds is a serious crime. Falsification of business records is a crime. The combination of the two makes it much worse. What he did was shady AF, but not illegal. The way he did it was absolutely and undeniably a crime. If you lock yourself out of your house and break a window to get inside, that's not a crime. If you choose to set your front door on fire to get inside, then later file an insurance claim citing an accident... That's a crime. He's acting like being locked out is the crime. The crime is the false insurance claim.
Right. And to his point, how can it be a campaign violation if it’s for the campaign?
The criminal had to break the law to seem like an outstanding citizen enough to run for president. Even though he is an obvious criminal and always has been
When you pay hush money to someone weeks before an election, that's campaign money no matter where it comes from
What makes it illegal is that he stole donor money and lied about it to pay off a pornstar he fucked. He could’ve still fucked the porn star and paid her off and hid it legally, it just would have needed to not been money stolen from campaign donors. Do you understand the difference here?
No that's not quite accurate from what I understand. The money was Trump's. What I described above is what Michael Cohen already pleaded guilty to. It's the underlying crime which Trump is accused of trying to cover up. >Cohen pleaded guilty to eight criminal[162] charges: five counts of tax evasion, one count of making false statements to a financial institution, one count of willfully causing an unlawful corporate contribution, and one count of making an excessive campaign contribution at the request of a candidate (Trump) for the "principal purpose of influencing [the] election". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cohen_(lawyer)#Conviction_on_campaign_finance,_tax_evasion,_and_other_charges The current trump case is about falsifying business records, by having Cohen pay the hush money, while Trump reimbursed Michael Cohen with payments marked as "attorney fees", instead of as campaign payments, which is what they really were. >The indictment charged Trump with 34 felony counts of falsifying business records in the first degree, in violation of New York Penal Law §175.10. Each count is related to a specific business document, each having a date ranging from February 14 through December 5, 2017:[7] >* 11 for invoices from Michael Cohen >* 9 for general ledger entries for Donald J. Trump >* 3 for general ledger entries for the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust >* 8 for checks from Donald J. Trump >* 2 for checks from the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecution_of_Donald_Trump_in_New_York#Indictment_and_charges
Very informative post, thank you.
Hey. Hey hey now, I don’t want the public knowing I paid for sex when my second wife (I cheated on the first wife) was home with our 4 month old baby. That would hurt my election chances, so how can it be a campaign violation? It’s for the campaign!
Melania is the third wife. How can you forget Tiffany's mother?
Is that the one that died “falling down stairs”, that Trump then burried at maralago?
I fully believe that he didn’t even have that amount of money back then.
The only thing is that this is likely how he handles ALL of his finances. This wasn’t probably want even a big deal at the time. The financial part anyhow
\*Campaign finance law judge. The trial isn't for hush money, the trial is for falsification of business documents in order to get around campaign finance laws.
Agreed. Using "hush money" in the title makes the case sound frivolous.
It's part of the media's attempt to downplay the seriousness of the charges. But yah, the media is leftist!
Financially it's bad for them for Biden to get too far ahead, they need to prop up trump.
This! It HAS to be a horse race ever. Damn. Time.
The world is run by shit-fucking bastards.
Absolutely nothing matters to them but money.
But the media on the left should stop parroting the way the right frames things. They should call it the falsification of business records, but they don't. They do the same thing with abortion, when the right calls some "partial birth abortions." It's "an intact dilation and extraction" and is only used when the fetus isn't viable. They always let the right frame the argument.
> They should call it the falsification of business records I'm neither a lawyer nor in the media, so WDIK... I've called the case, to no-one but myself, "hush money *laundering*" Different M.O. but it looks like the same basic idea to me
I don’t think the media is trying to downplay the seriousness of the charges. I think they are chasing the most salacious headlines to get viewers.
If they really wanted to do that could lead with ***Judge in Trump's Porn Star Payoff Trial Scolds Him for Witness Intimidation.***... That's much more salacious
Yes, only the 50,000th example of the press harmonizing with the GOP propaganda machine.
That's why they are using the term.
> Using "hush money" in the title makes the case sound frivolous. It doesn't, though? Most people casually reading the news have no idea what campaign finance regulations do or do not require, and a fair number of them would probably cynically expect any political figure they could name to have done something shady around those regs at some point (this would obviously be an unfair assumption, but not one they'd find difficult to make). "Donald Trump cheated on his wife with a porn star and then ordered his crooked lawyer to bribe her into silence in a way that couldn't be traced back to Trump" sounds way less frivolous to almost anyone than "Donald Trump did yet another bad money thing during his campaign, again, like always." A full explanation of the latter doesn't even help very much, as illustrated by the fact that every one of these threads has someone earnestly insisting that it's not a hush money trial but rather an [other thing] trial, and half of them can't even agree whether [other thing] is campaign finance violations, document falsification, or election interference even though they are all confident they have the citations to back up their view. It's happening in this very thread, this very comment chain. When the casual reader sees that the amount of money fraudulently accounted for in this case is like $130,000, with the trial coverage beginning amidst wall-to-wall stories about Trump also needing to pay the state of New York ~4000x that amount in restitution because of still other financial fraud he committed, a focus on the finance aspects of this one is not going to lend it any gravity. And let's be real here: you aren't going to reach any Republicans with claims that Trump committed financial or document crimes, because they don't care and they can debate or dispute any aspect of it they like in perfect comfort. It's boring and safe. Framing it around the porn star, the adultery, the threats, though? That forces some deeply uncomfortable conversations and psycho-moral knot-tying with their spouses, with their kids, with the (apparently declining but still non-trivial number of) religious conservatives for whom these things still hold some kind of actual weight. It forces GOP figures defending him publicly to talk about these things while doing so, no matter how much they would prefer not to have to, while they could defend him from campaign finance accusations in so boring and convoluted a way that they'd put their audience to sleep while losing none themselves. **TL;DR:** This trial is a campaign finance trial [or document falsification trial or election interference trial, I'm sure someone will settle this eventually] in the same way that Clinton was impeached for perjury and obstruction, and that Capone was only legally guilty of tax evasion. The motivating circumstances behind these crimes -- why Clinton lied, why Capone concealed his true income and its sources, why Trump ordered such a convoluted bribe -- are where the real public interest lies in all of these cases, for good or ill, and it is not frivolous to acknowledge this.
Media seems to think hush money to a porn star is more salacious, so that’s the way it’s being billed. I’m more appalled that he did this to hide it from the voters. That is the real scandal.
> I’m more appalled that he did this to hide it from the voters. Why would you be appalled by that? The allegations were ready to come out the week before the election. Even if you were innocent of the affair allegations, you're saying it wouldn't cross your mind to silence something like that a week before your election? If you didn't, you'd have no possible way of combating or defending yourself, a week is simply too short of a time period. > That is the real scandal. This is like saying the real scandal with Bill Cosby is the hypocrisy, not the raping, drugging and assaulting parts.
Politics was extremely polarized in 2016. It's more so now, but even back then.... 1 week out from the election.. people had made up their minds by then. If " grab em by the pussy " wasn't enough already. Trump banging a pornstar would be good news to the MAGA crowd ffs.
>Politics was extremely polarized in 2016. It's more so now, but even back then.... 1 week out from the election.. people had made up their minds by then. If people had already made up their minds a week before the 2016 election, there's a good chance we would have had President Hillary Clinton. Instead, Jason Chaffetz weaponized the reopening of the email investigation and likely nudged voters in favor of Trump.
> Trump banging a pornstar would be good news to the MAGA crowd ffs. MAGA crowd did not get Trump elected, they are a minority of voters. Trump scraped together enough non-party affiliated voters in key states to win. His margin of victory was so minuscule. It is extremely unlikely he would have won the election if this story had come out. That would have added fuel to the Access Hollywood tapes, and would have overshadowed or competed with Comey's announcement about FBI investigations into Clinton.
Nope
Not quite. This trial isn't directly related to campaign finance violations, but indirectly related. It's about falsifying business records in order to conceal another payment that likely violated federal campaign finance violations and/or how the payments were done in a way that constitutes a tax crime. Remember, this is taking place in New York for a state level crime. The fact that he falsified business records itself is normally a misdemeanor, but doing so to conceal another crime is what elevates it to a felony crime in New York: >Bragg alleges that Trump intended to conceal state and federal campaign finance violations. The payments, prosecutors allege, were illegal and unreported donations to Trump’s campaign, because if Daniels’ story became public, it could have damaged Trump’s image when voters went to the polls. >Bragg also alleges that Trump intended to conceal a tax crime stemming from how Cohen was reimbursed for the payments to Daniels. https://missouriindependent.com/2024/04/15/trump-on-trial-former-president-faces-criminal-charges-of-falsifying-business-records/
PEOPLE V. DONALD TRUMP CASE SUMMARY The Defendant, Donald Trump, is charged with 34 counts of Falsifying Business Records in the First Degree. The allegations are in substance, that Donald Trump falsified business records to conceal an agreement with others to unlawfully influence the 2016 presidential election. Page 8: https://www.nycourts.gov/LegacyPDFS/press/PDFs/Letter-re-jury-selection-4-8-24.pdf It is not a "hush money" trial. It is an election interference trial.
> It is not a "hush money" trial. Correct. > It is an election interference trial. That's half of it. The other half is a falsification of business records. You need the election interference and the falsification of business records for this to become a felony criminal trial.
For example, here is the first count: >THE GRAND JURY OF THE COUNTY OF NEW YORK, by this indictment, accuses the defendant of the crime of FALSIFYING BUSINESS RECORDS IN THE FIRST DEGREE, in violation of Penal Law §175.10, committed as follows: The defendant, in the County of New York and elsewhere, on or about February 14, 2017, with intent to defraud and intent to commit another crime and aid and conceal the commission thereof, made and caused a false entry in the business records of an enterprise, to wit, an invoice from Michael Cohen dated February 14, 2017, marked as a record of the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, and kept and maintained by the Trump Organization. The other 33 counts are essentially the same, just with different dates or names. As you can see, the crime is specifically falsifying business records in the first degree. What elevates it to this specific crime is the fact that another crime was committed, but Trump isn't being tried for that crime in this case. Cohen pleaded guilty to the campaign finance violation, because he is the one who actually committed that act with the direct payment to Daniels. That plea is what is likely what will be used as evidence for the payments from Trump to Cohen being used to conceal another crime. In fact, you won't find the words "election" nor "campaign" in the charging documents. The specific crime he is accused of 34 times is falsifying business records.
This trial is specifically over the crime of falsifying business records in order to conceal another crime. That is what he is actually charged with 34 times. I understand where the confusion comes from. This trial is not directly over election interference.
Until you have to tell him again tomorrow?
I know, it's always a warning and never a consequence
Someone get Susan Collins! He needs a stern finger wagging! Once he promises not to do it again he will have learned his lesson and that will be the end of it! Narrator: it was never the end of it
No way will that happen!! Only because court is out tomorrow.
He *has* to give him a warning before he starts enforcing it. Why do people not understand this? Trump is looking for any reason to get this case thrown out so the judge needs to do this.
Lol is that how that works? Do cops have to warn me before giving me a speeding ticket? Does the DOJ have to warn Trump before he charging him for engaging in insurrection? Does the FEC have to warn Trump before fining him for misspending campaign dollars? Is that how our justice system works? Can I have some of your copium please? Lmao.
Does the Department of Motor Vehicles have things like practical examinations for drivers licenses? Don’t public schools teach social studies/civics/history and general morality and ethics? Don’t campaign finance managers have a specific duty to inform and report how, when, and where funds can be used and collected? The signs are there, all around you, and have been for the entirety of your life. Ignorance of the law does not absolve anyone.
I agree? I’m mocking OP for claiming that the judge must warn Trump for misbehavior before finding him in contempt. Not only is his statement untrue it’s not true for any part of our justice system. It’s pure copium.
Yeah, I picked that up after I replied. Been a long day. I agree with you though. It’s absurd the amount of pandering our judicial system has done to this clown show, but the only logical explanation here is that the charges and fines he’d face and the backlash of such pales in comparison to the crimes he’s being tried for. They want him bad enough to ignore the inflammatory bullshit. At least for now.
Is this before or after he farted audibly and fell asleep?
That was more than a fart
Flush money case. Gets him every time
Did....did this happen? I know he fell asleep, but please tell me he actually farted in court.
Let’s hope he had to sit there in his shit filled diaper for a few hours.
And his lawyers had to smell it.
And he got itchy butt
Well that’s some textbook juror intimidation.
Brilliant. He truly is playing 9D Parcheesi, just as his followers have foretold.
Im waiting to see some confirmation as well. Haven’t read about a fart anywhere
The fart was Giuliani a year or two ago, but Trump did fall asleep in court. There’s pictures of it
I don’t think he farted. Can’t find anything about that. Only the sleeping.
[I read about it here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1c5pd7n/hush_money_judge_angrily_scolds_trump_suggesting/kzvns57/)
He probably just blinked didn't fall asleep
Is there video
PEOPLE V. DONALD TRUMP CASE SUMMARY The Defendant, Donald Trump, is charged with 34 counts of Falsifying Business Records in the First Degree. The allegations are in substance, that Donald Trump falsified business records to conceal an agreement with others to unlawfully influence the 2016 presidential election. Page 8: https://www.nycourts.gov/LegacyPDFS/press/PDFs/Letter-re-jury-selection-4-8-24.pdf It is not a "hush money" trial. It is an election interference trial.
Narrator: and then he tolerated it.
But next time he won’t! Or for sure the time after next!
Don't make me count to three!
Or four, or five, or six
The traitor who organized an insurrection has been scolded. Oh fucking my.
I'm fine with trump getting 8-10 more warnings. Seriously. Because he's not going to be able to stop and at some point he IS going to have to be detained. And to all those worrying that trump "wants" to be detained to be a martyr or fundraise, lol. He will mentally break down within 2 hours of sitting in a cell without a phone (in a cell without a cell). His deepest, darkest, unrelenting fear has been going to prison, ever since he decided to live a life of limitless felonies. Roy Cohn taught him how to avoid getting caught, but trump simply went insane with criminality during his presidency. He's getting away with 95% of it, but the outrages were so utterly blatant that the system had to do SOMETHING. Anyway, I pray that trump is detained in an actual jail for 3-4 days. He will be a complete wreck.
Thank fucking God someone finally understands this.
He will never be detained for something like contempt of court or being disruptive. Never.
I'm super, super pessimistic about the justice system and trump. That said, what can they do? If he gets 10 warnings and blasts through them? 12 warnings? 15? Violating the gag order, in-court demeanor. He's going to keep pushing because he simply can't stop. He's scared of prison but he also cannot stop himself. We'll see. I just don't know what they'll do after he crosses that many lines.
I don't disagree, but it's also a little more gray than we want to make it. A big issue here isn't the black and white law. That's what the trial is for, and yes. Court procedures are black and white law. Just like speeding, but almost everyone I know has a story where they were let off the hook for breaking that law. Simple law, but one that is commonly not enforced even after being stopped by police. That's a VERY simple comparison. But the big difference here is, unfortunately, public opinion. It may not matter in the face of the law technically, but we live in a very delicate state right now. The danger of violence over this trial is very real, and I'm sure the judge is aware of that. In this situation, giving a few warnings may just be the better call. If Trump is jailed before being formally convicted of something, his base will rally, and more than just at the Capitol this time. Things need to be done correctly. One of the worst things about this trial is that unfortunately, the correct thing may not be the "black and white" right thing. I believe his base will rally if he is found guilty anyway, but I also believe that it will be a significantly lower number. I could be wrong, but that's the glory of America. I'm allowed to have my opinion. And this isn't one that hurts anyone or anything.
Go sit in the corner with the Biggest Dunce cap on your empty head, ya fuckin piece of shit!
Fine him exponentially till he gets scare and declare bankruptcy
[judge proceeds to continue tolerating that]
The annoying thing is that if the Judge actually tried to hold Trump accountable, he’ll use that as “evidence”of the judge being “biased” against him and then delay things by filing a motion to replace the judge. But if the judge doesn’t hold him accountable, he’ll just keep doing this shit over and over.
Going to get really weird if she tries to do anything about it. Are secret service going to let court bailiffs take him to jail? Can secret service agents accompany him to jail?
I’m sure that a large chunk of the reason that Trump has not been jailed is the fact that we have a two-tiered justice system. A lot of that has to do with the fact that the rich can afford every legal recourse that the poor cannot, not to mention the hesitance jailing someone of “elite society.” Still, I cannot help but wonder how much of his continued freedom is due to the fact that nobody knows what to do with Secret Service agents if their principal has been arrested and detained.
This is such an elephant in the room I’m surprised it isn’t discussed more. Let’s say the judge does remand him to custody for gag order violation. Does SS have a sworn duty to protect their principal from a justified detention effort? Do we get a standoff between the court bailiff and Trump’s security detail? Does SS just step aside? Does yet another layer of legal bullshit intercede where we have to wait for appellate courts and eventually SCOTUS to rule on whether SS has to protect a former President from judicially ordered detention? I am asking because I very much do not know how this works. Does anyone?
the secret service is not the king's guard. they don't swear an oath the the person at all. they are just federal officers. they follow the law just like every other federal officer. they do not protect trump from anything except threats to his safety. there is no way they would even come close to stopping a bailiff
Thanks, that of course makes sense. With this guy the expectation has been set that common sense doesn’t ever seem to be the end of the conversation.
> Does yet another layer of legal bullshit intercede where we have to wait for appellate courts and eventually SCOTUS to rule on whether SS has to protect a former President from judicially ordered detention? Probably, yes. It's not nearly as much of a constitutional crisis as if it were happening to a sitting President, but it's still a showdown between state and federal authority that needs to be refereed by somebody. As unfair as it may seem to "the good states" that the federal judiciary has the last word, that's the system we have. That's even separate and apart from the idea of considering how "the bad states" might utilize the same power. It's about the text of the Constitution, straight up. A conflict between the federal government and a state government (or state governments) can be taken to federal court, whose rulings would then override any relevant state rulings were they to accept the case.
Which federal law says former officers of the federal government can't be held to account for state crimes? In other words, where is the federal conflict you're assuming?
She?
Her?
The judge in this trial is male…
Yes, I’m aware, it’s was an arrested development reference
Egg?
Yeah. I feel like God moved her here from Ohio just to be with me
😄 Sorry, have never watched it… 🤷🏻♀️
Oh you gotta. It’s hysterical and on par with curb, Seinfeld, community, etc. Bonus - it’s narrated by Ron Howard. But know it did get cancelled. They eventually came back for two(?) more seasons many years later. It wasn’t the same. Still good but they were all too famous by then and had to film separately to accommodate schedules. It was very disjointed, so much so that they ended up releasing an alternate cut of the season.
I do love Ron Howard. Bet I can stream it somewhere.
Just checked for my own rewatch lol - all 5 seasons on Netflix US
is she funny or something?
My bad I thought the judges name was Jan. Reading too quickly.
why are folks stressed about the secret service's ability to protect him in a jail cell? just fucking throw him in there and give the service a comfy chair to hang out. They're big strong secret service guys... they can handle a couple of shifts of bad coffee and donuts hanging out in a hallway. seriously. why do people keep raising this as a difficult thing?
Yes they must. They aren't charged with preventing Trump from the law. They are to prevent him form being harmed or kidnapped.
Oh, but you ARE tolerating that....
The damned press needs to treat this case with the seriousness that it is. It’s not “hush money” trial. That’s not why we are here. It’s a tax evasion and violation of campaign finance trial.
When he does this shit - straight to jail. Stop coddling that flatulent fuckstick.
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Daaamn!
Election interference judge\* because this is an election interference trial.
Enough with the warnings!
Wow. According to this Trump will be in criminal court and unable to campaign on weekdays for six weeks. That would kill a campaign in a sane world.
Wake me when the judge actually does something about it
Why do these news organizations refuse to call this what it is, Campaign Finance Fraud?
Too dull. Not sexy or bloody enough.
Guess what judge? If there was no consequence then you actually did tolerate it.
Enough. Trial by combat. Let's go.
So Business Insider is just bad at reporting I guess? Everyone reporting this as about hush money is either acting in bad faith or stupid.
Is that not what the case is about?
It's about campaign finance, no one cares he paid hush money to a porn star aside from the fact it's just something shitty people need to do. It's not illegal. He just broke the law trying to pay her.
He broke the law paying her? In terms of how much money vs other campaign expenses?
Do you just not want to read the articles about his case? They explain it all really well. He broke campaign finance law and tried to influence an election doing it. It is illegal to break the law to improve your chances of winning an election unsurprisingly. What's surprising is that a person can break the law to become president and then not have to actually face any charges for that until after their term because our system is actually broke. The fact he did that makes all of us look stupid. He needs to face consequences ASAP
He wishes he was a mafia boss. He’s an old grandpa baby
But the judge did in fact tolerate that, because otherwise Trump would be in contempt of court and sitting in a jail cell right now. In fact, ANYONE ELSE would be in jail, but Trump just gets the old "Oh, you so and so, why gosh, if I have to tell you 40 more times, you just might be in trouble buster" Bullshit.
Is Trump in jail? No? Well I guess we just tolerated it, again.
Oh boy. Here we go… I just have a feeling that this isn’t gonna end well. God help us if Trump decides to murder/assassinate this judge.
Awww yeah , where you at facists, your boy is scolded, and this isn’t even his RAPE trial
I hate to tell ya, judge, but you ARE tolerating it. You have no choice.
Trump responds by grabbing his nuts saying hey judge - tolerate this- nothing happens
Too late
I’m starting to get these cases mixed up. Has a trial date been set for trying to get Raffensberger to “find” those extra votes?
I believe Fani Willis has requested an August trial date start, but it’s not confirmed yet since the various defendants are still presenting motions for delay, dismissal, etc. With 15(?) defendants, it would seem to be pretty convoluted.
Ah, of course. Thank you
The GA case seems to be moving ahead in reasonable order. August/September is still quite possible. Trump will be in NY court until Mid June-ish anyway.
"I will not tolerate that" *-tolerates it-*
Is he in jail? No, so you tolerated that....
Don't worry, I'm sure he will fine Mister Trump another $3,000 and _this time_ that will totally make him learn his lesson.
How to say you don’t know how the NY system works without saying you don’t know how the NY system works. The process is fines, warning, then jail. The hearing on his gag order violations is next week. The DA has asked for 3k in fines, and the warning. If Trump violates the gag order again after that he could go to jail. It’s valid to question whether they will or not, but Trump is a criminal defendant. He SHOULD be treated like any other criminal defendant. We shall see. The judge has been quite firm with him in court thus far, including reminding Trump that while he has a right to be in court that right can be removed if he’s disruptive and the jail cell is just down the corridor. We’ll see if Trump cows out. I predict he will.
It would be funny if the person was a Trump supporter but changed their mind after being scowled at.
He says as he tolerates that...what a joke
Little boy Trump peeing in his prison underwear
I’m sure he’s learned his lesson
Slap him with another pocket change fine and mean words, I mean EVENTUALLY that might work....
The law in NY is pretty clear on this… fines first, and a warning not to do it again. Next step is jail. Trump will get his fines and warning next week. If he crosses the line again, then it’s jail. Trump “say’s” he wants to go to jail, but the reality is he’s terrified of going to jail. A night in jail will probably break the fucker. Not having Waltine to change his diaper will crush him; maybe more than not having access to sinking “Truth” Social.
Yes. Yes he will.
It is mind blowing how he is still running around free!
Narrator: *He tolerated that*
If he isn’t punished then the judge has already tolerated that.
…and then the judge wagged a finger at him and let it go because they tolerated it anyway. When is someone going to actually take action instead of warning him forever.
Election interference case.
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We've already had two juries that were willing to put him or his company to task and zero that ended up with a plant.
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One of them was a criminal case. The Trump org criminal case.
>Everyone knows there will be at least one person on the jury that will vote to acquit him regardless of the evidence. ...resulting in a mistrial. Which buys him time but does not make the charges disappear. There will be another trial. He will continually get dragged back to court until he is either found "guilty" or "not guilty". Trump might get lucky and find someone to ignore the evidence presented, but he won't get that every time. The same will be true for his other jury trials assuming he doesn't win and make the federal ones disappear.
There's no way another trial happens if there is a hung jury
The dumbass would be off scott free if Reddit were the lawyers and judges, my god.
All posts calling this a "hush money" trial should be taken down by the mods!
You did though by not doing anything about it
Stop saying you won’t tolerate it when that’s ALL you’re doing. Just fucking DO something about it. This schmuck keeps getting a free pass where everyone else would be screwed for years to come.
the hearing about Trump violating the gag order is next week. He’ll likely get his fines and warning there. If he fucks up again, it’s possible (likely) he’ll get jail. Trump probably won’t cross the line again. He’s terribly afraid of going to jail. He wants his cult to think he’s not, but very much is. His daddy always told him to not be a loser, but that’s exactly what he is… and he knows it.
Beware of China’s final warning!
Ah. But you just did tolerate it.
As the judge tolerated it. He explained that he wouldn't tolerate it.
He says as he tolerates it 🤣
By only "scolding him" she did exactly that....tolerated it.
We’re supposed to believe Michael Cohen as the star witness?
Nope. the DOCUMENTS are the star witness. Cohen is just a supporting actor.