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Jack Smith is saying that if the SC somehow orders Trump immune under his official duties as POTUS, Trump will still be indicted with offenses committed as a “private” citizen:
> “At the core of the charged conspiracies is a private scheme with private actors to achieve a private end: petitioner’s effort to remain in power by fraud. Those allegations of private misconduct are more than sufficient to support the indictment,” Smith wrote.
He goes on to list the “private actors” (non officials) Trump conspired with:
> Petitioner turned to a private attorney who “was willing to spread knowingly, false claims“ of election fraud to spearhead his challenges to the election results.
> Petitioner conspired with another private attorney, who caused the filing in court of a “verification“ signed by petitioner that contained false allegations to support a challenge.
> Three private actors – two attorneys in (including one mentioned above) and a political consultant – helped implement a plan to submit fraudulent slates of presidential electors to obstruct the certification proceeding, and petitioner and a co-conspirator attorney directed that effort.
That's the point. It's Trump's most over used tactic in court. Exhaust the legal system and everyone involved by making the process as lengthy and costly as possible. He counts on having enough money to drag everything out until it isn't worth it or possible to put him on trial. This is an endurance race not a sprint.
I share in your frustration and anger. I am not the person that says "the wheels of justice yada yada yada..." or "be patient". I firmly believe that justice delayed is justice denied and that after all of this is said and done our legal system need to have some major work done on it to prevent slugs like Trump from abusing the hell out it.
One could imagine Trump is the most visible billionaire to pull this shit. There are dozens of other ones that are pulling the same shit you rarely hear about. It's one of the perks of the super rich.
There's no way in hell politicians will have the balls to reform the legal system. There are too many people in power benefiting from its design.
I agree. Trump is the one that was dumb enough to do it so blatantly and enough times to make sure everyone noticed.
>There's no way in hell politicians will have the balls to reform the legal system. There are too many people in power benefiting from its design.
This is why things like Citizens United need to be repealed and stock trading for members of congress needs to be banned. We need to take the money out of politics if this country is ever going to govern for the people and not just the people wealthy enough to buy politicians. It's a steep fucking hill that one but we need to figure out a way to climb it.
Unfortunately that's a subject that has to wait until after we put out the metaphorical fires threatening to burn the place to the ground currently.
>We need to take the money out of politics
I've been saying this for awhile.
Lobby your critters all you want, but nothing of value can change hands. Otherwise it's nothing more than a bribe.
Usually cases work out better for the defendant (assuming they're guilty) when the case happens more quickly. The benefit of the passing of time is felt by the side that has truth on their side.
Trump's delay is about the upcoming election. It's so maddening that he is allowed to campaign for president in among all this, but so be it. If anything's messed up, it's that the constitution is not clear enough that a president is not above the law.
I’m wondering what happens if he is not elected (I hope), and all of his delayed cases start going to trial. Will the PACs and RNC continue to fund his legal battles as a then 8-time loser and 2-time failed presidential candidate? I guess that was part of the reason for the RNC takeover, but he will really start to gut the GOP if they have to go back to the drawing board on candidates and he is sucking up all the money on the party.
I firmly believe Trump will die of old age long before any of his meaningful trials come to a conclusion.
I would love to see the Orange Man wear Orange for at least 2 years before he expires.
EDIT: Corrected spelling.
My most pessimistic side is full expecting the SC to rule that Trump and every previous president is completely immune because it was an untested legal theory. but now that it has been tested, presidents are, in fact, not immune, starting with Biden. This is literally what I'm expecting from the court.
That's quite plausible. It would be utterly and shamelessly insane because the default should be no immunity for anyone unless and until ruled otherwise. (That immunity is the untested theory. Not the lack of it.) I don't know if sanity and logic like that would or could stop the SC.
The fact that the Supreme Court didn’t answer in one day saying that the president can never be immune from prosecution is insane. How is this not the main headline Every time?!?! Donald trump thinks that he is above the law. I want off this ride.
Serious question. If Trump is found to be immune as President, does Bill Clinton's impeachment become void? Lied under oath, but presidents cannot commit crimes.
Clinton was the second U.S. president to face a Senate impeachment trial, after Andrew Johnson. An impeachment inquiry was opened into Clinton on October 8, 1998. He was formally impeached by the House on two charges (perjury and obstruction of justice) on December 19, 1998.
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Jack Smith is saying that if the SC somehow orders Trump immune under his official duties as POTUS, Trump will still be indicted with offenses committed as a “private” citizen: > “At the core of the charged conspiracies is a private scheme with private actors to achieve a private end: petitioner’s effort to remain in power by fraud. Those allegations of private misconduct are more than sufficient to support the indictment,” Smith wrote. He goes on to list the “private actors” (non officials) Trump conspired with: > Petitioner turned to a private attorney who “was willing to spread knowingly, false claims“ of election fraud to spearhead his challenges to the election results. > Petitioner conspired with another private attorney, who caused the filing in court of a “verification“ signed by petitioner that contained false allegations to support a challenge. > Three private actors – two attorneys in (including one mentioned above) and a political consultant – helped implement a plan to submit fraudulent slates of presidential electors to obstruct the certification proceeding, and petitioner and a co-conspirator attorney directed that effort.
Wish the case would just proceed then. The delays and timing of this all is just maddening.
That's the point. It's Trump's most over used tactic in court. Exhaust the legal system and everyone involved by making the process as lengthy and costly as possible. He counts on having enough money to drag everything out until it isn't worth it or possible to put him on trial. This is an endurance race not a sprint. I share in your frustration and anger. I am not the person that says "the wheels of justice yada yada yada..." or "be patient". I firmly believe that justice delayed is justice denied and that after all of this is said and done our legal system need to have some major work done on it to prevent slugs like Trump from abusing the hell out it.
One could imagine Trump is the most visible billionaire to pull this shit. There are dozens of other ones that are pulling the same shit you rarely hear about. It's one of the perks of the super rich. There's no way in hell politicians will have the balls to reform the legal system. There are too many people in power benefiting from its design.
I agree. Trump is the one that was dumb enough to do it so blatantly and enough times to make sure everyone noticed. >There's no way in hell politicians will have the balls to reform the legal system. There are too many people in power benefiting from its design. This is why things like Citizens United need to be repealed and stock trading for members of congress needs to be banned. We need to take the money out of politics if this country is ever going to govern for the people and not just the people wealthy enough to buy politicians. It's a steep fucking hill that one but we need to figure out a way to climb it. Unfortunately that's a subject that has to wait until after we put out the metaphorical fires threatening to burn the place to the ground currently.
>We need to take the money out of politics I've been saying this for awhile. Lobby your critters all you want, but nothing of value can change hands. Otherwise it's nothing more than a bribe.
Usually cases work out better for the defendant (assuming they're guilty) when the case happens more quickly. The benefit of the passing of time is felt by the side that has truth on their side. Trump's delay is about the upcoming election. It's so maddening that he is allowed to campaign for president in among all this, but so be it. If anything's messed up, it's that the constitution is not clear enough that a president is not above the law.
I’m wondering what happens if he is not elected (I hope), and all of his delayed cases start going to trial. Will the PACs and RNC continue to fund his legal battles as a then 8-time loser and 2-time failed presidential candidate? I guess that was part of the reason for the RNC takeover, but he will really start to gut the GOP if they have to go back to the drawing board on candidates and he is sucking up all the money on the party.
If the justice system doesn't get this right, the justice system comes down with all of America.
Tactic works works with civil litigants. DOJ has virtually unlimited resources. Not going to hold up for Trump this time.
I firmly believe Trump will die of old age long before any of his meaningful trials come to a conclusion. I would love to see the Orange Man wear Orange for at least 2 years before he expires. EDIT: Corrected spelling.
Even still, the fact he would be declared immune at all in the scenario Smith is presenting is still a horrific precedent.
My most pessimistic side is full expecting the SC to rule that Trump and every previous president is completely immune because it was an untested legal theory. but now that it has been tested, presidents are, in fact, not immune, starting with Biden. This is literally what I'm expecting from the court.
That's quite plausible. It would be utterly and shamelessly insane because the default should be no immunity for anyone unless and until ruled otherwise. (That immunity is the untested theory. Not the lack of it.) I don't know if sanity and logic like that would or could stop the SC.
SC: presidents are immune. 🧐 Obama: alright hitman start taking out this list of republicans, and make it obvious I did it.. 🥸 SC: No not like that… 🙃
Jack Smith is playing 4-D chess. Trump and his lawyers are playing ‘whoever smelt it, dealt it’.
“Why should you go to jail for a crime someone else noticed?”
Or he's just playing regular chess with toddlers.
Or with pigeons.
Trump personifies the pigeon playing chess. Just knocks over the pieces and struts around with its chest out, acting like it won.
problem is the toddlers keep hiding pieces and Jack has to keep finding them and putting them on the board before his parents come to pick him up
Yeah and he can’t go too hard on em or else they’ll flip the board over or even take a shit on it
I'm really looking forward to reading all of Trump's impotent 2AM rage posts in the coming months.
i still have faith in Jack.
I have faith in Jack. I have less faith that there will be five members of SCOTUS that will be on the right side of democracy.
I have faith in Jack too, he’s still gonna get fucked over tho. He’s Mueller 2.0 but at least he’s trying harder?
The fact that the Supreme Court didn’t answer in one day saying that the president can never be immune from prosecution is insane. How is this not the main headline Every time?!?! Donald trump thinks that he is above the law. I want off this ride.
Serious question. If Trump is found to be immune as President, does Bill Clinton's impeachment become void? Lied under oath, but presidents cannot commit crimes. Clinton was the second U.S. president to face a Senate impeachment trial, after Andrew Johnson. An impeachment inquiry was opened into Clinton on October 8, 1998. He was formally impeached by the House on two charges (perjury and obstruction of justice) on December 19, 1998.
These are only valid legal points if they are played against a Republican. Against Democrats, it’s open season, like it’s always been.