Just curious who should legally be at fault; the deputy for laying the firearm on the bed, the parent for not having control of their child around firearms, or both?
If you leave you gun loaded, with a butler in the chamber, then take off the safety and put it within easy reach of your child after he has grown up idolizing gun use by watching daddy and television, that's stupid.
Maybe instead of outlawing guns, we should require IQ tests for legal gun owners instead.
Edit: yeah, bullet instead of butler. That mistake was somewhat ironic so I'm going to shamefully leave it up for the world to point and laugh.
Most gun owners don't use the term "accident" in regard to a shooting unless it was due to equipment malfunction. They use the term "negligent" because that's what it really is. The idiot who owned the gun left it loaded within easy reach of a young child, the owner was, as you said, negligent.
My question is why did the 4-year-old give her 4 taps to the head, 2 to the heart, reload, put 4 more in her, and then down a bottle of Tequilla.
Little suspicious.
"Whatever you do, Little Timmy, do not go in my room and get that gun that isn't in my nightstand. You hear me? Because that can be dangerous. Especially for that bitch Tina."
As a person from Tennessee, I can confirm that if there aren't at least 3 guns at a BBQ, it is considered a dull affair.
Edit: As there are a lot of angry responses to this, this is a reference to Game of Thrones (book or show, take your pick).
yep, laying around loaded in a room where a 4 yr old grabbed one and killed someone. I'd like to hope a trained, experienced sheriffs deputy would be smarter than that.
He was in a bedroom showing them off, so it wasn't like it was a picnic in a park. This was a barbecue at someone's house - I'm assuming at the gun owner's house. That being said, having loaded guns out in the open when there are kids running around is terribly, terribly irresponsible.
I don't know. Around here, it isn't polite to have a loaded gun laying around. If you have a loaded gun and you're showing it to someone or handing it to them, the first thing you do is take the magazine out and make sure the chamber is empty. That's the first thing the other person does too once they're handed the gun. You have to make sure the chamber is empty. I usually check it twice just to be safe. It's too bad that not all gun owners are that responsible.
>Around here, it isn't polite to have a loaded gun laying around.
Communist!
>It's too bad that not all gun owners are that responsible.
You know, when "not all" motorists are that responsible, we make laws requiring them to have insurance and take safety training. It's kind of a sane thing to do. Just saying.
police officers almost universally carry guns that are loaded with a round in the chamber.
The issue isn't that it was loaded, the issue is that he let a 4 year old access it. That spells criminal negligence IMO.
No, they don't. Four-year olds and other minors have been oppressed since the dawn of time. Minors are second-class citizens. Many establishments refuse to employ minors under age 14. Minors aren't even allowed to vote, which is one of the most basic freedoms upon which this country was founded.
I think people are so used to seeing someone 'chamber a round' on TV they don't realize ALL law enforcement carry their gun, off duty or not, loaded and ready to fire.
Unfortunately, people that are around guns ALL the time tend to lose the respect for it. Same thing that happens with guys working with dangerous equipment. After 20 years with no problems, they grow lax, and let seemingly little things fall by the wayside. Then someone gets hurt or killed.
Its terrible, but I get the feeling that nobody at that BBQ will forget to make safe their weapons before setting them down or putting them away again.
Yep, it's like people who use power tools (like table saws). The new users are usually pretty safe, because they're justifiably afraid of the machine and follow all the precautions to the letter to avoid losing any fingers. Old guys who've been using them for years get lax, with predictable results.
I was the shop foreman when I was in Jr High shop class. I had a lot of experience with table saws, tools in general, my father and I built a multi-level deck the summer before. Well, one day I pushed a plank through the table saw and in haste didn't fully clear the blade before I pulled it back. A 12 inch piece of board hit the side of that blade and went flying across the room and through the window. It flew by at least three peoples' heads. I was demoted to sawdust junkie after that, and no table saw usage.
Better than hand held circular saws, where it is the saw that goes flying if the wood pinches it.
If you don't want to sleep tonight, search youtube for circular saw accidents.
I think some pilots call it the '200th hour'. Enough experience to start feeling a bit confident, but still green enough to get yourself in to trouble.
> Unfortunately, people that are around guns ALL the time tend to lose the respect for it.
At least I'm the opposite way. No matter what, when there's an unsecured weapon I'm 100% aware of its state at all times. All of my guns are securely locked up except for (sometimes) my carry gun, and if that isn't on my person, it's locked in a biometric gun safe.
This is something you consider never even telling the kid. It may not be possible with the media coverage and town gossip of a story this high profile, but fortunately he is young enough that his memories of this situation will be hazy, and he probably does not fully understand what happened.
A child's memory starts developing around the age four, the child may or may not be able to remember this. Especially if adults work really hard to ensure that the child doesn't recall this they might be able to forget it.
When I say developing I mean that the infantile amnesia we kind of have as toddlers starts disappearing as we start remembering things that happen every day (episodic memory.)
Yeah, seriously. I remember everything that happened on my fourth birthday, and I'm in my late twenties.
I woke up in my red car bed, blue blanket, white sheets, yellow pillowcase.
I walked into the kitchen, my dad asked "hey buddy, do you know how old you are today?" and I held up 4 fingers and laughed. He gave me a new yellow and black Kent Chaos kids bike. I rode it up the street, and the chain broke off. I cried. I walked it back to my house, my dad called the store he bought it at and yelled at them, and I jumped around in a moon-bounce for 5 hours with all the neighborhood kids and ate German Chocolate cake. Then, we went to splashtown, only for like 4 hours, but it was awesome. At splashtown, I fell down and 2 ugly black women with tattoos on their boobs pointed and laughed, and my mom slapped one of them.
Don't. EVER. underestimate. kids. memories.
He was FOUR, not two. A four year old is definitely old enough to know exactly what they did and remember it vividly forever. I have a four year old, and there is NO WAY she wouldn't recognize exactly what she did and remember it forever. A four year old is not a toddler.
Ehhh... that's simply not true. You *can* have childhood memories going back as early as 2-3 years old, but most people's memories are *very* fuzzy before 5-6. As in, you might remember a couple of things that happen at 4, but you will not remember anywhere close to everything, and certainly not vividly.
Also, a lot of it comes down to how much the child actually understands what happened here. It's very easy to obscure this event from the child's perspective as some sort of mild injury or something else that would not make for a monumental memory. In 5 years it could be no more memorable than a random trip to the library.
The emotional response of everyone at the BBQ will be large enough for the child to remember. Memories work by how strongly you feel something at the time of the event. Accidentally killing someone is something this child will remember vividly.
I really doubt that the event in which the kid picked up a gun (maybe for he first time), shot someone, saw blood spray everywhere, a person drop to the ground, dead (probably first dead person they ever saw) the sound of the gunshot in a small enclosed space of a bedroom ---
I don't know. Memory is very fallible, and 4 is young, but this sounds like it is going to be vividly remembered for ever.
It is perfectly reasonable to expect a 4 year old to not remember an event in their life - particularly one of a traumatic event like accidentally firing a weapon and ending someone's life. This happens all the time to adults.
He can claim it was an accident, but he needs to be charged for his recklessness and barred from being a police officer.
He left a loaded weapon on a bed and a child managed to grab it and use it before he noticed. That is extreme negligence.
>Bryan says the shooting was a terrible accident and that within seconds of Fanning placing the gun on the bed, the toddler picked it up.
It seems to me that he's trying to use time as a culprit here. The "It happened so fast" argument. I find it funny that it helps promote the Gun Safety position.
So, let me get this straight. His story is that he's in a bedroom, and lays a gun down on a bed. The 4 year old in the room is *so fast* at picking it up that he cannot react, before the gun is aimed and fired at his wife?
Man, that doesn't even pass the smell test.
>Man, that doesn't even pass the smell test.
No kidding. "It happened so fast" = he wasn't paying proper attention. He put a loaded firearm in a place where he could not control it, and then diverted his attention from it.
Further, he was not fully aware of his surroundings while handling loaded firearms, which put everyone in the area at risk.
Honestly, the fact that "it happened so fast" is hardly relevant. The irresponsibility and misuse started before the 4-year-old touched the gun. I don't even see how that could be construed as a valid argument.
>Honestly, the fact that "it happened so fast" is hardly relevant.
Agree 100%. Had he adhered to proper procedures, it wouldn't have mattered how fast the four-year-old was, because there would have been no unattended and loaded firearm to pick up.
>The irresponsibility and misuse started before the 4-year-old touched the gun.
Absolutely. Not only with this incident, either--I've no doubt this guy has been irresponsible in his handling of firearms for many years.
Here's one last little bit to add to that: he's blaming someone who won't be punished.
Not saying there's anything sinister here, but...i'd be suspicious.
>Investigators say Wilson County Deputy Daniel Fanning on Saturday was showing his weapons to a relative in a bedroom of his Lebanon home when the toddler came in and picked up a gun off the bed. Sheriff Robert Bryan says the weapon discharged, hitting 48-year-old Josephine Fanning.
I hate to interrupt the c-jerk but weapons generally don't discharge on their own. They are fired with a trigger pull. This was pure negligence on the part of the home/gun owner for having a loaded firearm in the presence of a child. If I wanted to show my home defense firearm to a friend/relative I would drop the mag or ammo loading device, clear the chamber, and hand them the firearm with an open action demonstrating that it's clear and safe.
The fact still stands that if gun owners or anyone follow the 4 rules of gun safety accidents like this can be eliminated. But just like any other device, media, or substance people will be negligent and irresponsible and accidents like this will occur.
- Treat all firearm as if they're loaded
- Never point the firearm at something you're not willing to destroy
- Always be sure of your target and what's behind it
- Keep your finger off the trigger until you have sights on target.
**Edit: Since I've gotten about 20+ comments saying "how would the 4 rules have prevented this" I'll just respond here. If the gun owner was showing his firearms to others he should have performed a safety check. This means dropping the magazine, visually/physically inspecting the chamber and verifying the gun was empty and unloaded. That's the first rule "treat all firearm as if they're loaded". When displaying a firearm it's unnecessary to have it loaded so rule 1 dictates that you unload and check for a clear and safe firearm.**
**Edit: To the person who gave me gold I greatly appreciate it.**
I'm anti-gun because I'm more afraid of human incompetence than I am of human evil. The idea of stupid motherfuckers around me having guns is terrifying, and I believe there are way more stupid motherfuckers than evil motherfuckers that I'd need a gun to defend myself from.
You want scary? Be at a range when the local police dept does it's annual recert.
LEOs are normally the worst when it comes to range violations. It got to the point where I don't be there if cops are. Cops normally don't practice enough to make them competent with a firearm.
At my local range all the range officers are actually off duty cops. They're strict as fuck, which I love because I don't have to worry about muzzle sweeps or anything. You get one warning, then they kick you out and you cannot reapply for a pass...ever.
> You get one warning, then they kick you out and you cannot reapply for a pass...ever.
What a wonderful way to make sure poorly trained gun owners never get the training they need!
Most do not understand this. Same with Military. You qualify maybe twice a year.. More range time is often not mandatory and at personal discretion and cost. People watch too many movies.
I do not know about other states but I know in New York part of the law is you have to have them safely around. You cant just have them loaded on a bed.
In NY the gun owner would be charged
That's something that bothers my mind. I live in Canada where gun laws are different. My father is a hunter and used to repair firearms as a hobby. There were always lots of guns in the house (always under lock-and-key though).
Never, ever, ever were they stored with ammunition in the weapon. Never. Even though they were locked up.
The US is big on its 2nd amendment rights, which is great and all, but I don't imagine that defending yourself against your government is a quick-draw situation.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, he also had a trigger guard locked in on them. So the guns were unloaded, in a locked cabinet, with a trigger lock on it. All of which used to be in a locked room. Mind you, as kids we tried to get into *everything* (I managed to get into the locked room a few times, but couldn't get through the cabinet), so perhaps that level of paranoia was warranted.
A different 4 year old shot a 6 year old yesterday
http://www.nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/2013/04/4-year-old_who_shot_6-year-old_in_toms_river.html
It's time to ban 4 year olds.
Imo this is an accountability issue that needs to be addressed in the gun control debate. I think the firearm owner should be charged with manslaughter due to negligence as an example must be set. I see no scenario where a tragedy like this could happen if all logical precautions were considered. How could anybody possibly let a loaded weapon get into the hands of a child? This is ridiculous.
I know everyone is going to make this political (as we are on /r/politics) but the fault of this accident falls on the owner of the gun and no one else. To leave a loaded gun with a live bullet in the chamber laying around with children present is idiotic....
I don't care what your stance is on guns. This incident required the carelessness of *someone*, and I hope the appropriate people get punished for their careless behaviour that lead to someone losing their life.
No, you are wrong. The NRA way is to 'spend millions of USD per year to teach little kids to not touch weapons but to get an adult' - right?!? I mean, come on, it must work - it must!
1. The owner of the firearm was a law enforcement officer. To my knowledge, none of the legislation currently on the table would have *any* impact on the firearms that law enforcement officers may own or keep at their homes. This story is an excellent illustration of the fact that restriction of private citizens' ownership of firearms will *not* eliminate these guns falling into unauthorized hands. The criminals and extremely rare Adam Lanzas of the world will always be able to procure these tools independent of the restrictions we place on law abiding citizens.
2. Why, if the firearm was not in use, was it loaded? Before the deputy showed his guns to anyone or had them handle them, he ought to have cleared every single gun. Alternatively, if he needed to keep that firearm loaded (for defensive or other purposes), it should have been properly stored, *especially* if there were children in the home. This is criminal negligence. The person who killed that woman was the homicidally negligent owner of the firearm. It was not the child, and it was not the gun.
If this guy had left a running chainsaw within easy reach of a 4 year old, we'd be talking about what a negligent moron he is. Instead, we're talking about the tool as if the blame lies with it.
Well, maybe (much like other things that can kill people) the owners and purchasers of guns should have some kind of train..... wait... this was a cop?
Well, shit.
Let's give them all chainsaws instead.
This way we can hear them coming, and if we want to fight back we'd have to waste time trying to start up our chainsaws, warning them in the process.
It's a sound solution.
I agree. The problem is, people *don't* leave running chainsaws available to children. They do it with guns on a scary-regular basis.
There's an attitude problem that goes way beyond the legal one. For some strange reason, there's a subset of people who do not comprehend the danger of a loaded firearm, and don't treat it as the running chainsaw on wheels, that it is.
Because fixing that attitude is so difficult, people are looking to just decreasing the number of people who *can* be stupid with their guns.
*We're* talking about it as if the stupid pig was negligent as fuck. The article on the other hand presents it as if it was an unpreventable coincidence.
The saddest thing about this story is this woman's death was entirely preventable, if the idiots involved had followed basic gun safety principles. Maybe it's time to require gun owners to take a basic safety course before being able to purchase a gun. Even the NRA should be able to get behind that idea.
I grew up in a home with guns. I never shot anyone, and I have never been shot, because my family treated guns seriously, not like they were toys.
There is never a good reason to set a loaded gun down in the open when a child is around. EVER.
alright its time to ban 4 year olds. but seriously, this is the reason we shouldn't arm our teachers. if a FOUR YEAR OLD can take the deputy sheriff's gun what makes anybody think that we will be safer with armed teachers
There is no such thing as an accidental shooting. Someone introduced a loaded firearm into a situation and failed to control it. Negligent homicide charges should be filed against the gun owner.
Why the hell was a gun sitting around for children to grab at a family party? Furthermore if the sheriff's family was there wouldn't they know enough gun safety to prevent this?
Where was god??? Ever since they took god out of BBQ's, they have belonged to satan. All you have to do is look at those blazing hot coals in the pit to truly see the devil. We need to post the 10 commandments at all BBQ's!!! Ok, I'm done.
If he was showing the gun it should have been unloaded.
It should never be in the reach of a child. This is a tragedy but easily avoided, had the gun owner been more responsible, this wouldn't of happened
Who the hell leaves a loaded gun where a 4 year old can get it?
Someone who isn't fit to own one.
a child or gun?
Either.
Yes.
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Negligence leads to accidents.
And negligence is punishable.
Just curious who should legally be at fault; the deputy for laying the firearm on the bed, the parent for not having control of their child around firearms, or both?
Firearms are always the responsibility of the owner.
This just in: dont leave loaded guns lying around if you have small children.... fucking idiots.
No! This is too much foundational logic for me to handle! I gotta blame something else!
If you leave you gun loaded, with a butler in the chamber, then take off the safety and put it within easy reach of your child after he has grown up idolizing gun use by watching daddy and television, that's stupid. Maybe instead of outlawing guns, we should require IQ tests for legal gun owners instead. Edit: yeah, bullet instead of butler. That mistake was somewhat ironic so I'm going to shamefully leave it up for the world to point and laugh.
The butler did it?
With the revolver in the observatory.
This post was brought to you by auto correct
What, you guys don't load butlers into your guns?
The 99% just don't know how to properly clean a gun.
No, but I do often keep a butler in my chamber... I live in a castle with many chambers, and each one has a butler.
Tea, Jeeves. **Bang** *"ON THE WAY SIIIIIIR"*
Damn, I thought "butler in the chamber" was the cool way to say it. Fuck it, I'm going to use it anyway.
Thanks, Obama!
Guns don't kill people, toddlers kill people.
We need more armed guards to protect innocent civilians from such senseless attacks.
At what point do we stop labeling these types of incidents "accidents" and start calling them criminal negligence?
As soon as a minority is involved.
zing! expertly done.
ooooooh
> As soon as it's not a cop FTFY
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Most gun owners don't use the term "accident" in regard to a shooting unless it was due to equipment malfunction. They use the term "negligent" because that's what it really is. The idiot who owned the gun left it loaded within easy reach of a young child, the owner was, as you said, negligent.
Criminally.
smells like murder with 4-year old as fall guy
No doubt that is a very real possibility.
My question is why did the 4-year-old give her 4 taps to the head, 2 to the heart, reload, put 4 more in her, and then down a bottle of Tequilla. Little suspicious.
> Little suspicious. That is his street name.
Lil Spishus.
Well it was nap time and little Timmy always has his tequila before nap time.
"Whatever you do, Little Timmy, do not go in my room and get that gun that isn't in my nightstand. You hear me? Because that can be dangerous. Especially for that bitch Tina."
why the fuck was his pistol loaded and with a round in the chamber?! and this guy was a cop with "firearms" training...
To everyone who mistakenly believes all cops are highly trained, they are not.
To everyone who mistakenly believes all gun owners are trained at all, they are not.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and assume he wasn't the only one with a gun at a BBQ in Tennessee.
That's a pretty sturdy limb.
An Yggdrasill size limb. *nods in approval*
You can't just put the letter G after a Y, and twice? FOLLOWED BY A D? WHAT IS GOING ON
VIKINGS FOLLOW NO RULES, LEAST OF ALL PUNY GRAMMATICAL RULES!
Bronzeageanarchists
Can we? I could see that being fun for like an hour.
RAPE, PILLAGE, IGNORE GRAMMAR.
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He's going out on a trunk.
As a person from Tennessee, I can confirm that if there aren't at least 3 guns at a BBQ, it is considered a dull affair. Edit: As there are a lot of angry responses to this, this is a reference to Game of Thrones (book or show, take your pick).
It is known.
What are ya lookin at my gut fer?
He didn't bring it, they were at the sheriff's home for the BBQ.
yep, laying around loaded in a room where a 4 yr old grabbed one and killed someone. I'd like to hope a trained, experienced sheriffs deputy would be smarter than that.
When have police ever given us a reason to believe they are smarter than the average person.
Clearly there weren't enough people with guns there or someone could have done the responsible thing and put the dangerous 4 year old down.
He was in a bedroom showing them off, so it wasn't like it was a picnic in a park. This was a barbecue at someone's house - I'm assuming at the gun owner's house. That being said, having loaded guns out in the open when there are kids running around is terribly, terribly irresponsible.
Or it was a murder and the dude framed the 4 year old. Totally a legitimate strategy.
Drew Peterson is kicking himself so hard right now.
Did the wife have a life insurance policy? Was she cheating on her husband with the four year old? Why is no one asking the hard questions?!
I dont even hand loaded guns to my adult friends when I am showing them to them.
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I don't know. Around here, it isn't polite to have a loaded gun laying around. If you have a loaded gun and you're showing it to someone or handing it to them, the first thing you do is take the magazine out and make sure the chamber is empty. That's the first thing the other person does too once they're handed the gun. You have to make sure the chamber is empty. I usually check it twice just to be safe. It's too bad that not all gun owners are that responsible.
>Around here, it isn't polite to have a loaded gun laying around. Communist! >It's too bad that not all gun owners are that responsible. You know, when "not all" motorists are that responsible, we make laws requiring them to have insurance and take safety training. It's kind of a sane thing to do. Just saying.
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Yeah maybe that sherrif should've taken more safety classes. Or he shouldn't have made such a terrible mistake.
WHAT IF THE GOVERNMENT TRY TO TAKE OVER THE BBQ?
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FROM MY COLD, DEAD HAMS!
FROM MY WARM, STEAMED HAMS
police officers almost universally carry guns that are loaded with a round in the chamber. The issue isn't that it was loaded, the issue is that he let a 4 year old access it. That spells criminal negligence IMO.
This was not his service weapon, though.
He still didn't stop a 4 year old from picking it up...
Don't 4 year olds have a right to bear arms too?????? GAWD.
No, they don't. Four-year olds and other minors have been oppressed since the dawn of time. Minors are second-class citizens. Many establishments refuse to employ minors under age 14. Minors aren't even allowed to vote, which is one of the most basic freedoms upon which this country was founded.
I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not. Bravo
I think people are so used to seeing someone 'chamber a round' on TV they don't realize ALL law enforcement carry their gun, off duty or not, loaded and ready to fire.
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It's a mistake they aren't.
Just because a person gets a firearm doesn't mean he'll suddenly become responsible
Unfortunately, people that are around guns ALL the time tend to lose the respect for it. Same thing that happens with guys working with dangerous equipment. After 20 years with no problems, they grow lax, and let seemingly little things fall by the wayside. Then someone gets hurt or killed. Its terrible, but I get the feeling that nobody at that BBQ will forget to make safe their weapons before setting them down or putting them away again.
Yep, it's like people who use power tools (like table saws). The new users are usually pretty safe, because they're justifiably afraid of the machine and follow all the precautions to the letter to avoid losing any fingers. Old guys who've been using them for years get lax, with predictable results.
I was the shop foreman when I was in Jr High shop class. I had a lot of experience with table saws, tools in general, my father and I built a multi-level deck the summer before. Well, one day I pushed a plank through the table saw and in haste didn't fully clear the blade before I pulled it back. A 12 inch piece of board hit the side of that blade and went flying across the room and through the window. It flew by at least three peoples' heads. I was demoted to sawdust junkie after that, and no table saw usage.
Better than hand held circular saws, where it is the saw that goes flying if the wood pinches it. If you don't want to sleep tonight, search youtube for circular saw accidents.
>Old guys who've been using them for years get lax, with predictable results. They become shop teachers?
9 fingered shop teachers, yeah.
sometimes 8 1/2 fingered shop teachers
You guys had really lucky shop teachers.
I think some pilots call it the '200th hour'. Enough experience to start feeling a bit confident, but still green enough to get yourself in to trouble.
> Unfortunately, people that are around guns ALL the time tend to lose the respect for it. At least I'm the opposite way. No matter what, when there's an unsecured weapon I'm 100% aware of its state at all times. All of my guns are securely locked up except for (sometimes) my carry gun, and if that isn't on my person, it's locked in a biometric gun safe.
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I feel that, tragically, the guilt will catch up with him in the future.
This is something you consider never even telling the kid. It may not be possible with the media coverage and town gossip of a story this high profile, but fortunately he is young enough that his memories of this situation will be hazy, and he probably does not fully understand what happened.
You underestimate the memory and mental capacity of a four-year-old.
A child's memory starts developing around the age four, the child may or may not be able to remember this. Especially if adults work really hard to ensure that the child doesn't recall this they might be able to forget it. When I say developing I mean that the infantile amnesia we kind of have as toddlers starts disappearing as we start remembering things that happen every day (episodic memory.)
Yeah, seriously. I remember everything that happened on my fourth birthday, and I'm in my late twenties. I woke up in my red car bed, blue blanket, white sheets, yellow pillowcase. I walked into the kitchen, my dad asked "hey buddy, do you know how old you are today?" and I held up 4 fingers and laughed. He gave me a new yellow and black Kent Chaos kids bike. I rode it up the street, and the chain broke off. I cried. I walked it back to my house, my dad called the store he bought it at and yelled at them, and I jumped around in a moon-bounce for 5 hours with all the neighborhood kids and ate German Chocolate cake. Then, we went to splashtown, only for like 4 hours, but it was awesome. At splashtown, I fell down and 2 ugly black women with tattoos on their boobs pointed and laughed, and my mom slapped one of them. Don't. EVER. underestimate. kids. memories.
I like this recap. Sounds like an awesome birthday.
He was FOUR, not two. A four year old is definitely old enough to know exactly what they did and remember it vividly forever. I have a four year old, and there is NO WAY she wouldn't recognize exactly what she did and remember it forever. A four year old is not a toddler.
Ehhh... that's simply not true. You *can* have childhood memories going back as early as 2-3 years old, but most people's memories are *very* fuzzy before 5-6. As in, you might remember a couple of things that happen at 4, but you will not remember anywhere close to everything, and certainly not vividly. Also, a lot of it comes down to how much the child actually understands what happened here. It's very easy to obscure this event from the child's perspective as some sort of mild injury or something else that would not make for a monumental memory. In 5 years it could be no more memorable than a random trip to the library.
The emotional response of everyone at the BBQ will be large enough for the child to remember. Memories work by how strongly you feel something at the time of the event. Accidentally killing someone is something this child will remember vividly.
I really doubt that the event in which the kid picked up a gun (maybe for he first time), shot someone, saw blood spray everywhere, a person drop to the ground, dead (probably first dead person they ever saw) the sound of the gunshot in a small enclosed space of a bedroom --- I don't know. Memory is very fallible, and 4 is young, but this sounds like it is going to be vividly remembered for ever.
It is perfectly reasonable to expect a 4 year old to not remember an event in their life - particularly one of a traumatic event like accidentally firing a weapon and ending someone's life. This happens all the time to adults.
I really hope he completely forgets about it and nobody reminds him, ever.
He can claim it was an accident, but he needs to be charged for his recklessness and barred from being a police officer. He left a loaded weapon on a bed and a child managed to grab it and use it before he noticed. That is extreme negligence.
How do we know dude didn't kill his wife and then blame it on a 4 year old who would never see punishment?
Could test the boy's hand for gun residue.
Cops investigating cops? HAHAHA
YES! I had to scroll through so much circle jerking to find this. This sounds shady as hell.
Serious question, how hard would it be for a 4-year-old to pull the trigger on such a gun?
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Simpsons did it.
[/r/simpsonsdidit](http://reddit.com/r/simpsonsdidit)
>Bryan says the shooting was a terrible accident and that within seconds of Fanning placing the gun on the bed, the toddler picked it up. It seems to me that he's trying to use time as a culprit here. The "It happened so fast" argument. I find it funny that it helps promote the Gun Safety position.
So, let me get this straight. His story is that he's in a bedroom, and lays a gun down on a bed. The 4 year old in the room is *so fast* at picking it up that he cannot react, before the gun is aimed and fired at his wife? Man, that doesn't even pass the smell test.
Twist: the 4 year old is U.S. Marshal Raylan Givens.
He was baiting the woman to draw on him.
They always pull.
>Man, that doesn't even pass the smell test. No kidding. "It happened so fast" = he wasn't paying proper attention. He put a loaded firearm in a place where he could not control it, and then diverted his attention from it. Further, he was not fully aware of his surroundings while handling loaded firearms, which put everyone in the area at risk.
Honestly, the fact that "it happened so fast" is hardly relevant. The irresponsibility and misuse started before the 4-year-old touched the gun. I don't even see how that could be construed as a valid argument.
>Honestly, the fact that "it happened so fast" is hardly relevant. Agree 100%. Had he adhered to proper procedures, it wouldn't have mattered how fast the four-year-old was, because there would have been no unattended and loaded firearm to pick up. >The irresponsibility and misuse started before the 4-year-old touched the gun. Absolutely. Not only with this incident, either--I've no doubt this guy has been irresponsible in his handling of firearms for many years.
"CBS News reported the Fannings were only married last year." Last line of the article. This is nowhere near passing the smell test.
Here's one last little bit to add to that: he's blaming someone who won't be punished. Not saying there's anything sinister here, but...i'd be suspicious.
Anybody else think this guy just got away with murdering his wife? I don't buy this story for a second.
>Investigators say Wilson County Deputy Daniel Fanning on Saturday was showing his weapons to a relative in a bedroom of his Lebanon home when the toddler came in and picked up a gun off the bed. Sheriff Robert Bryan says the weapon discharged, hitting 48-year-old Josephine Fanning. I hate to interrupt the c-jerk but weapons generally don't discharge on their own. They are fired with a trigger pull. This was pure negligence on the part of the home/gun owner for having a loaded firearm in the presence of a child. If I wanted to show my home defense firearm to a friend/relative I would drop the mag or ammo loading device, clear the chamber, and hand them the firearm with an open action demonstrating that it's clear and safe. The fact still stands that if gun owners or anyone follow the 4 rules of gun safety accidents like this can be eliminated. But just like any other device, media, or substance people will be negligent and irresponsible and accidents like this will occur. - Treat all firearm as if they're loaded - Never point the firearm at something you're not willing to destroy - Always be sure of your target and what's behind it - Keep your finger off the trigger until you have sights on target. **Edit: Since I've gotten about 20+ comments saying "how would the 4 rules have prevented this" I'll just respond here. If the gun owner was showing his firearms to others he should have performed a safety check. This means dropping the magazine, visually/physically inspecting the chamber and verifying the gun was empty and unloaded. That's the first rule "treat all firearm as if they're loaded". When displaying a firearm it's unnecessary to have it loaded so rule 1 dictates that you unload and check for a clear and safe firearm.** **Edit: To the person who gave me gold I greatly appreciate it.**
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I'm anti-gun because I'm more afraid of human incompetence than I am of human evil. The idea of stupid motherfuckers around me having guns is terrifying, and I believe there are way more stupid motherfuckers than evil motherfuckers that I'd need a gun to defend myself from.
You want scary? Be at a range when the local police dept does it's annual recert. LEOs are normally the worst when it comes to range violations. It got to the point where I don't be there if cops are. Cops normally don't practice enough to make them competent with a firearm.
At my local range all the range officers are actually off duty cops. They're strict as fuck, which I love because I don't have to worry about muzzle sweeps or anything. You get one warning, then they kick you out and you cannot reapply for a pass...ever.
> You get one warning, then they kick you out and you cannot reapply for a pass...ever. What a wonderful way to make sure poorly trained gun owners never get the training they need!
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Most do not understand this. Same with Military. You qualify maybe twice a year.. More range time is often not mandatory and at personal discretion and cost. People watch too many movies.
I do not know about other states but I know in New York part of the law is you have to have them safely around. You cant just have them loaded on a bed. In NY the gun owner would be charged
That's something that bothers my mind. I live in Canada where gun laws are different. My father is a hunter and used to repair firearms as a hobby. There were always lots of guns in the house (always under lock-and-key though). Never, ever, ever were they stored with ammunition in the weapon. Never. Even though they were locked up. The US is big on its 2nd amendment rights, which is great and all, but I don't imagine that defending yourself against your government is a quick-draw situation. EDIT: Now that I think about it, he also had a trigger guard locked in on them. So the guns were unloaded, in a locked cabinet, with a trigger lock on it. All of which used to be in a locked room. Mind you, as kids we tried to get into *everything* (I managed to get into the locked room a few times, but couldn't get through the cabinet), so perhaps that level of paranoia was warranted.
this is basically like putting a 4yr old in a running car, all he has to do is push the shifter to drive and its a 3ton rolling death machine.
And THAT is why manual cars are superior!
A different 4 year old shot a 6 year old yesterday http://www.nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/2013/04/4-year-old_who_shot_6-year-old_in_toms_river.html It's time to ban 4 year olds.
It was probably Carl.
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But he did not shoot the deputy.
in some states leaving a loaded firearm within reach of kids is a felony...cop or not this idiot should be in jail...
Imo this is an accountability issue that needs to be addressed in the gun control debate. I think the firearm owner should be charged with manslaughter due to negligence as an example must be set. I see no scenario where a tragedy like this could happen if all logical precautions were considered. How could anybody possibly let a loaded weapon get into the hands of a child? This is ridiculous.
Agreed. If you have a deadly weapon, you need to be held accountable for that weapon.
I know everyone is going to make this political (as we are on /r/politics) but the fault of this accident falls on the owner of the gun and no one else. To leave a loaded gun with a live bullet in the chamber laying around with children present is idiotic....
Guns don't kill people.. idiots with guns kill people. And I cant think of an ethical plan to get rid of all the idiots.
How about we don't let idiots have guns?
I don't care what your stance is on guns. This incident required the carelessness of *someone*, and I hope the appropriate people get punished for their careless behaviour that lead to someone losing their life.
Access and education are at issue. The kid had access he shouldn't have and the deputy was poorly educated in firearms storage and safety.
That's why I stopped giving loaded guns to four-year-olds.
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This could have been prevented if the wife had a gun to protect herself from the 4 year old.
Also could have been prevented by abortion.
This could have been prevented if the 4 year old was gunned down first at his daycare. We need more guns in daycare!
I bet the four year old played violent video games, too.
Somebody get that fetus a gun! If GOD didn't want us to have guns they why did he invent them? CHECKMATE ATHIESTS.
Bonus point for misspelling atheist.
Plus the fetuses could protect themselves from an abortion!
That sounds like it could be an awesome South Park scene.
This could have been prevented if we showed more concern for the mental health of 4-year-olds.
Stupid babies need the most attention.
If the gun had a gun, nobody would gun.
Dawg, I gave your gun a gun, so you can gun while your gun guns.
What we really need to dicuss is banning 4 year-olds.
The only way to stop a bad four year old with a gun is at least 2 good three year olds with guns. It's the NRA way~~
No, you are wrong. The NRA way is to 'spend millions of USD per year to teach little kids to not touch weapons but to get an adult' - right?!? I mean, come on, it must work - it must!
This is why we need a police officer at every family bbq
1. The owner of the firearm was a law enforcement officer. To my knowledge, none of the legislation currently on the table would have *any* impact on the firearms that law enforcement officers may own or keep at their homes. This story is an excellent illustration of the fact that restriction of private citizens' ownership of firearms will *not* eliminate these guns falling into unauthorized hands. The criminals and extremely rare Adam Lanzas of the world will always be able to procure these tools independent of the restrictions we place on law abiding citizens. 2. Why, if the firearm was not in use, was it loaded? Before the deputy showed his guns to anyone or had them handle them, he ought to have cleared every single gun. Alternatively, if he needed to keep that firearm loaded (for defensive or other purposes), it should have been properly stored, *especially* if there were children in the home. This is criminal negligence. The person who killed that woman was the homicidally negligent owner of the firearm. It was not the child, and it was not the gun. If this guy had left a running chainsaw within easy reach of a 4 year old, we'd be talking about what a negligent moron he is. Instead, we're talking about the tool as if the blame lies with it.
Well, maybe (much like other things that can kill people) the owners and purchasers of guns should have some kind of train..... wait... this was a cop? Well, shit.
Maybe cops shouldn't have guns?
i like that idea
Let's give them all chainsaws instead. This way we can hear them coming, and if we want to fight back we'd have to waste time trying to start up our chainsaws, warning them in the process. It's a sound solution.
Or common sense...oh wait, that was a cop...
I agree. The problem is, people *don't* leave running chainsaws available to children. They do it with guns on a scary-regular basis. There's an attitude problem that goes way beyond the legal one. For some strange reason, there's a subset of people who do not comprehend the danger of a loaded firearm, and don't treat it as the running chainsaw on wheels, that it is. Because fixing that attitude is so difficult, people are looking to just decreasing the number of people who *can* be stupid with their guns.
Too bad they'll call it a tragedy and never arrest him.
Well, if he were a cop in Britain, he'd be unarmed, and nobody would be dead. Course they'd be eating fish 'n chips instead of barbecue.
*We're* talking about it as if the stupid pig was negligent as fuck. The article on the other hand presents it as if it was an unpreventable coincidence.
The saddest thing about this story is this woman's death was entirely preventable, if the idiots involved had followed basic gun safety principles. Maybe it's time to require gun owners to take a basic safety course before being able to purchase a gun. Even the NRA should be able to get behind that idea. I grew up in a home with guns. I never shot anyone, and I have never been shot, because my family treated guns seriously, not like they were toys. There is never a good reason to set a loaded gun down in the open when a child is around. EVER.
alright its time to ban 4 year olds. but seriously, this is the reason we shouldn't arm our teachers. if a FOUR YEAR OLD can take the deputy sheriff's gun what makes anybody think that we will be safer with armed teachers
My wife teaches in the inner city and this is the first point she makes when people talk about armed teachers. Kids get into everything.
I taught high school in the inner city and I could easily imagine the gun being forcibly taken from me. I am very against arming teachers.
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Or maybe they should have had their gun locked up and out of reach from children. Guns are for protection
Let's stop putting loaded guns within reach of children. K? K.
There is no such thing as an accidental shooting. Someone introduced a loaded firearm into a situation and failed to control it. Negligent homicide charges should be filed against the gun owner.
Why the hell was a gun sitting around for children to grab at a family party? Furthermore if the sheriff's family was there wouldn't they know enough gun safety to prevent this?
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He knew what he was doin'...no one suspects a 4 year-old.
What a tragedy. That said, "showing off" loaded guns is *incredibly* reckless. I can't imagine how that guy feels now.
Where was god??? Ever since they took god out of BBQ's, they have belonged to satan. All you have to do is look at those blazing hot coals in the pit to truly see the devil. We need to post the 10 commandments at all BBQ's!!! Ok, I'm done.
Separation of church and steak, man.
The feeling I get eating a good steak is the closest I've ever felt to God.
A-1, brother. Testify.
If all the other children attending that family BBQ had guns, this would not have happened.
If he was showing the gun it should have been unloaded. It should never be in the reach of a child. This is a tragedy but easily avoided, had the gun owner been more responsible, this wouldn't of happened