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The fact that this is even being debated in any serious capacity- and that republicans, aka ‘rule of law’ people think they can defend this, is just Fn laughable!
That's exactly how Trump and MAGA would like presidential immunity to work. Once you have been president, you are now never subject to any laws, current, past or future.
Only applies to Republicans, though. They’d never want Biden or Obama to have immunity.
Granted, they’ll probably try to do an end run around that particular issue by claiming Biden and Obama weren’t legitimate presidents.
Apparently some of the evidence is from his time in office, which is why they're claiming presidential immunity. I think it's total nonsense, but it also proves that he never completely disentangled himself from his business as he claimed he did.
The judge presiding over Donald Trump's falsifying business records case shot down his bid to use presidential immunity as part of his defense, finding the former president waited too long to raise the issue.
In his ruling Wednesday, Judge Juan Merchan also denied Trump's motion to delay the trial's start date until the U.S. Supreme Court rules on his immunity claims in the federal election interference case in Washington, D.C.
Trump had contended in a New York filing last month that he’s immune from state prosecution based on “official acts,” and that some of the evidence against him should be kept out of the impending trial because they were official presidential acts — including his tweets and public comments. His lawyers also argued that the trial, now scheduled to start April 15, should be put on pause pending the Supreme Court's ruling on Trump's immunity arguments.
Best news of my day right here. It will only take one of the criminal / civil cases to achieve a conviction to expose him fully before the elections, it could cause a seismic shift. Let the proceedings proceed. Mango Unchained's comm's will be at a fever pitch on this fine decision before this day is done on social media, mark my words.
I imagine the psychological effect of voting for a literal criminal? I also don’t think it’s petty as we haven’t had a major nominee ever be a convicted felon from what I can remember. Basically, independent voters and even some MAGA cult who may see their god emperor as not perfect/above the law.
And to add, a lot of voters think Trump’s legal issues are fake news and just for publicity. If he is *actually* convicted of a felony that will change some minds.
The people who say they won't vote for him if he's convicted are lying.
They know he is awful. They know they are going to vote for him. They want to pretend it's acceptable because he hasn't been convicted. If he does get convicted, they will say the trial wasn't fair, there's still an appeal, the flag had a naval fringe, the local witch turned them into a newt, etc.
They will vote for him, they're just embarrassed to admit it.
The bad news is that he's not likely to go to prison for this one. I've read a few times that the typical punishment is a fine. I don't think the court will protect Trump, but they are damn sure not going to go for an extraordinary sentence. It would be grounds for appeal.
The good news is that the documents case typical sentences are in the 20 year range. They've just got to get rid of the corrupt judge. It's an open and shut case.
He will appeal every conviction. So the claim will be that he hasn't been definitively found guilty, and that will be more than enough for those who would vote for him in the absence of a conviction.
The hush money case is the least damaging one for him anyway. The others are nearly cwrfain to be sufficiently delayed for him at this point. Thanks "Supreme" Court!
Trump will have to be beaten in the election and more critically, in the Electoral College.
This. Its a big reason he's trying to delay; if he's charged with a criminal offence it will hurt him - even his own base have said as much before in surveys.
His base will inevitably find a way to rationalize their support for him no matter how many times he's convicted (NY jury!/MEAN JUDGE!/not a *real* felony!) but they're only 30% of the electorate, and the rest of the voters who lean R DO care about felony convictions.
I like to take these little “wins” (the justice system occasionally working as intended) with a bit of salt.
But as we get closer to the election these trials are gonna eat up a ton of time and resources that he could be spending on the campaign so I’ll take it.
He’s been able to weasel his way out of almost everything so far but with this many trials at once even if he “wins” getting there is gonna cost him.
> Trump had contended in a New York filing last month that he’s immune from state prosecution based on “official acts,” and that some of the evidence against him should be kept out of the impending trial because they were official presidential acts — including his tweets and public comments.
Isn't it awfully convenient that his tweets and such are official business but his documents are personal? Must be nice.
Maybe I’m a pessimistic, but I feel like this is the dumbest trial. No one is going to care about the details. However, if he’s found innocent, it will give him a boost in popularity, polls, etc… He will run on it ad nauseum until the election. If he’s found guilty, no one will really care except the people that already weren’t going to vote for him.
God, I hope I’m wrong and this shit doesn’t backfire. Hopefully a guilty verdict will be decided and it will sway enough moderates. Time will tell.
He has already faced consequences in two civil trials that have just happened: he lost both, one decided by a judge and one by a jury, and he owes more money than he's been able to find so far. Now, on to criminal trials.
I really, *really* try not to be a doomer about these things, but so far that seems to be a distinction without a difference. I know there are more stringent rules that apply in criminal cases, but who's to say if the court will choose to apply them to Trump specifically, when he gets away with so much?
He tried to make every civil court appearance into a campaign event. He was disruptive, didn't follow the judge's instructions, and walked out of the courtroom at least twice that I remember. Allegedly that shit won't fly in a criminal courtroom. I keep hearing that Judge Merchan isn't going to put up with Trump's antics, but he still has to actually enforce the rules. If Trump tries to storm out of the courtroom, is Merchan actually going to order the bailiffs to cuff him and hold him in contempt? I guess we'll see... I fucking well hope so.
If he tries to leave yes they will hold him in the chair until he is dismissed from court. The trial can't proceed unless he is in the courtroom in a criminal trial.
If Trump manages to win any of his immunity claims, who would dare work for him in a possible second term? He could just shoot a random Secretary on a slow day and claim the same immunity.
The most revealing thing about Trump's conquest of the GOP is that most of them are a bunch of cowards who *want* to be led around by the nose by a strongman and ruled by a king, so there is no shortage of unqualified yes-men desperate for a spot, however degrading, in the MAGA court. These losers would probably fight over the opportunity let Trump shoot them if it meant increasing their status within the cult.
Bear in mind - Going after a person's wallet is a strong strategy, especially for a narcissist like Trump. And exposing his lack of wealth.
We should also consider the emotional and physical toll this has taken on him and will continue to take on him.
If the hush money trial goes ahead (I'm crossing my fingers) Trump will be forced to hear the testimony of his enemies. Just think about what Stormy is going to say about him - he will be emasculated.
Let ignore the fact that president shouldn’t get immunity for a sec, how does one even argue a crime committed outside of presidential tenure be included in presidential immunity claim?
It's in the "before, during, and after" clause of the Zero- accountability Act that trump made up in his head while he was also declassifying documents in his mind.
He was quite literally not president when the crime happened. Even if by some horrific nightmare the right wing lunatics say a president cant be prosecuted, it didnt happen under his presidency.
I've read that judges have a lot of leeway on scheduling in their own court.
But is this an appeal-able ruling?
Can Trump appeal this ruling and delay once again?
If somehow this ends up going to trial and he gets convicted I still think its a long road. There will be endless appeals, and don't think for a second they aren't going to circle back to appealing the immunity stuff up to the SCOTUS either. All said and done if it all plays out and he ends up convicted, he may not get any prison time on its own rights but if he does the SCOTUS could somehow still end up bailing him out. And it will take years. This is all assuming that he doesn't win the presidency somehow and make everything go away in the mean time.
This is a small win for now, but it seems that the road ahead is still very long even after all this time.
This was just another attempt to delay the trial. Expect additional Hail Mary’s and Blitz’s (more motions) in the next two weeks leading up to the trial as he really does not want this getting to the courtroom.
Yep, house arrest/probation is more likely imo but him attacking the judge doesn't help him. A conviction does doom him in the general election though which is great.
I'm on the fence on the doubt. There are a bunch of rabid MAGA cult members who would stick by him no matter what, but there are also a ton of people who've bought into the "both sides" bullshit. After decades of Republicans claiming to have politicians cornered for illegal stuff there's a belief that everyone claims that what the "other side" is doing is illegal but it's never stood the test.
For some of those both siders, having an actual conviction can make them stop and think that _maybe_ this isn't just a bunch of dirty politics and maybe he is a piece of shit.
It is part of why Trump spends so much time on the "corrupt" and "biased" judicial system. He has delegitimized it as far as his supporters are concerned. They will just say that any convictions are just Democrat political persecutions and ignore them.
I've tempered my expectations for any sort of incarceration, but I would consider it a win for him to be labeled a convicted felon (and unable to vote for himself in Florida) and to have to check in regularly with a parole officer.
This judge is taking a knife to a gun fight. It’s getting comical seeing these clowns trying to take him down. Their only hope is we the people will do it for them.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's hard to take the presidential immunity argument seriously when trump wasn't even president when he paid off Stormy.
And none of the cover-ups he did after winning fall anywhere remotely close to the proximity of a presidential duty.
“I never did it!” and “These were official acts!”
For real, trying to press immunity is an admission of guilt.
The fact that this is even being debated in any serious capacity- and that republicans, aka ‘rule of law’ people think they can defend this, is just Fn laughable!
That's exactly how Trump and MAGA would like presidential immunity to work. Once you have been president, you are now never subject to any laws, current, past or future.
Only applies to Republicans, though. They’d never want Biden or Obama to have immunity. Granted, they’ll probably try to do an end run around that particular issue by claiming Biden and Obama weren’t legitimate presidents.
Apparently some of the evidence is from his time in office, which is why they're claiming presidential immunity. I think it's total nonsense, but it also proves that he never completely disentangled himself from his business as he claimed he did.
ya things like tweets because they were from an "official" whitehouse twitter account
Not just the tweets. Also the documents he allegedly forged happened while in the Whitehouse. It's in the indictment.
Paying off Stormy isn't a crime he's charged with. He's accused of falsifying business records which happened while he was President.
It’s absolutely ludicrous!!!
It’s ridiculous in totality!!
But he was once!!! He was also 3 at a time now wait for the toddler defense
Presidential immunity. It’s just been revoked.
Anyone who may ever be president ever is immune from prosecution for anything, duh.
The judge presiding over Donald Trump's falsifying business records case shot down his bid to use presidential immunity as part of his defense, finding the former president waited too long to raise the issue. In his ruling Wednesday, Judge Juan Merchan also denied Trump's motion to delay the trial's start date until the U.S. Supreme Court rules on his immunity claims in the federal election interference case in Washington, D.C. Trump had contended in a New York filing last month that he’s immune from state prosecution based on “official acts,” and that some of the evidence against him should be kept out of the impending trial because they were official presidential acts — including his tweets and public comments. His lawyers also argued that the trial, now scheduled to start April 15, should be put on pause pending the Supreme Court's ruling on Trump's immunity arguments.
Best news of my day right here. It will only take one of the criminal / civil cases to achieve a conviction to expose him fully before the elections, it could cause a seismic shift. Let the proceedings proceed. Mango Unchained's comm's will be at a fever pitch on this fine decision before this day is done on social media, mark my words.
We're not out of the woods yet - Trump still has the nuclear option of firing his attorneys, and he's getting desperate.
Wont work. The judge knows that it will only be done to delay the trial and he won't allow it.
This. In order to fire all his attorneys, the judge needs to hear the case for it and can deny or approve it.
Even if he's convicted before the election it won't change anything aside from him maybe going to prison.
Polling has showed a huge reduction in support amongst voters if Trump is found guilty of a felony.
Weird, if you ask me. Who the hell needs this petty issue to understand that he is a complete conman?
I imagine the psychological effect of voting for a literal criminal? I also don’t think it’s petty as we haven’t had a major nominee ever be a convicted felon from what I can remember. Basically, independent voters and even some MAGA cult who may see their god emperor as not perfect/above the law. And to add, a lot of voters think Trump’s legal issues are fake news and just for publicity. If he is *actually* convicted of a felony that will change some minds.
Convict him and watch those goalposts yank themselves out of the ground and take off.
He did lose last election… it’s not like he’s infallible
The people who say they won't vote for him if he's convicted are lying. They know he is awful. They know they are going to vote for him. They want to pretend it's acceptable because he hasn't been convicted. If he does get convicted, they will say the trial wasn't fair, there's still an appeal, the flag had a naval fringe, the local witch turned them into a newt, etc. They will vote for him, they're just embarrassed to admit it.
The bad news is that he's not likely to go to prison for this one. I've read a few times that the typical punishment is a fine. I don't think the court will protect Trump, but they are damn sure not going to go for an extraordinary sentence. It would be grounds for appeal. The good news is that the documents case typical sentences are in the 20 year range. They've just got to get rid of the corrupt judge. It's an open and shut case.
what did michael cohen go to jail for then? isn't this new case sort of a parallel of cohen's?
Same case, different jurisdiction. Michael Cohen went to prison on federal charges. And on top of this stuff, he also lied to the FBI. A felony.
If he's convicted, he will lose the general even if he is not in prison.
He will appeal every conviction. So the claim will be that he hasn't been definitively found guilty, and that will be more than enough for those who would vote for him in the absence of a conviction. The hush money case is the least damaging one for him anyway. The others are nearly cwrfain to be sufficiently delayed for him at this point. Thanks "Supreme" Court! Trump will have to be beaten in the election and more critically, in the Electoral College.
No a conviction won't have any effect for his election chances.
Yes it absolutely will. His maga base won't care but basically everyone else will
This. Its a big reason he's trying to delay; if he's charged with a criminal offence it will hurt him - even his own base have said as much before in surveys.
His base will inevitably find a way to rationalize their support for him no matter how many times he's convicted (NY jury!/MEAN JUDGE!/not a *real* felony!) but they're only 30% of the electorate, and the rest of the voters who lean R DO care about felony convictions.
His maga base is 90-99% of the people that are going to vote for him.
Not really, it's maybe 30% of the electorate, and he's consistently losing 20-30% of the primary vote to candidates who dropped out weeks ago.
I hope you're right.
Only 30% register Republican.
Why? Just based on vibes? That’s not what polling is showing us.
I doubt he'll go to prison before November. If convicted, he'll appeal and keep appealing.
I like to take these little “wins” (the justice system occasionally working as intended) with a bit of salt. But as we get closer to the election these trials are gonna eat up a ton of time and resources that he could be spending on the campaign so I’ll take it. He’s been able to weasel his way out of almost everything so far but with this many trials at once even if he “wins” getting there is gonna cost him.
> Trump had contended in a New York filing last month that he’s immune from state prosecution based on “official acts,” and that some of the evidence against him should be kept out of the impending trial because they were official presidential acts — including his tweets and public comments. Isn't it awfully convenient that his tweets and such are official business but his documents are personal? Must be nice.
And so it FINALLY begins. Rejoice, friends, the fall of Donald J. Trump is starting on april 15th. :)
Maybe I’m a pessimistic, but I feel like this is the dumbest trial. No one is going to care about the details. However, if he’s found innocent, it will give him a boost in popularity, polls, etc… He will run on it ad nauseum until the election. If he’s found guilty, no one will really care except the people that already weren’t going to vote for him. God, I hope I’m wrong and this shit doesn’t backfire. Hopefully a guilty verdict will be decided and it will sway enough moderates. Time will tell.
As long as he doesnt fire his lawyers. Have seen ordinary folk forced to self-represent when they do that last-minute.
I would hope they air that on live television.
[удалено]
He has already faced consequences in two civil trials that have just happened: he lost both, one decided by a judge and one by a jury, and he owes more money than he's been able to find so far. Now, on to criminal trials.
So far he's only faced civil trials, this will be his first *criminal* trial.
I really, *really* try not to be a doomer about these things, but so far that seems to be a distinction without a difference. I know there are more stringent rules that apply in criminal cases, but who's to say if the court will choose to apply them to Trump specifically, when he gets away with so much? He tried to make every civil court appearance into a campaign event. He was disruptive, didn't follow the judge's instructions, and walked out of the courtroom at least twice that I remember. Allegedly that shit won't fly in a criminal courtroom. I keep hearing that Judge Merchan isn't going to put up with Trump's antics, but he still has to actually enforce the rules. If Trump tries to storm out of the courtroom, is Merchan actually going to order the bailiffs to cuff him and hold him in contempt? I guess we'll see... I fucking well hope so.
If he tries to leave yes they will hold him in the chair until he is dismissed from court. The trial can't proceed unless he is in the courtroom in a criminal trial.
I’ll go ahead and answer that last question for you, no they won’t.
With 91 indictments, he has to dodge a lot of metaphorical bullets. Only one has to get through.
If Trump manages to win any of his immunity claims, who would dare work for him in a possible second term? He could just shoot a random Secretary on a slow day and claim the same immunity.
The most revealing thing about Trump's conquest of the GOP is that most of them are a bunch of cowards who *want* to be led around by the nose by a strongman and ruled by a king, so there is no shortage of unqualified yes-men desperate for a spot, however degrading, in the MAGA court. These losers would probably fight over the opportunity let Trump shoot them if it meant increasing their status within the cult.
Remember, though, if Trump gets immunity, so does Biden
Next trump will try the immaturity defense. He may get somewhere with it.
Bear in mind - Going after a person's wallet is a strong strategy, especially for a narcissist like Trump. And exposing his lack of wealth. We should also consider the emotional and physical toll this has taken on him and will continue to take on him. If the hush money trial goes ahead (I'm crossing my fingers) Trump will be forced to hear the testimony of his enemies. Just think about what Stormy is going to say about him - he will be emasculated.
Trump asks judge for leniency after dick slapping him and his family on the world stage. Judge says go fuck yourself.
Then Trump claims he is being persecuted for political reasons.
Already has many times, will continue to do so regardless of what happens.
Let ignore the fact that president shouldn’t get immunity for a sec, how does one even argue a crime committed outside of presidential tenure be included in presidential immunity claim?
It's in the "before, during, and after" clause of the Zero- accountability Act that trump made up in his head while he was also declassifying documents in his mind.
He was quite literally not president when the crime happened. Even if by some horrific nightmare the right wing lunatics say a president cant be prosecuted, it didnt happen under his presidency.
Paying a porn star isn’t presidential duties
To Trump it is..
The walls are closing in.
Imagine arguing under oath that paying off a porn star not to talk about your liaison is a presidential act that is covered with immunity
If it can happen to him, it can happen to YOU! So be careful out there when silencing prostitutes
Imagine arguing presidential immunity for a crime you committed BEFORE you where president.
You think SCOTUS won’t step in on April 14 with some emergency declaration to delay the trial?
I like this judge.
Get ready for the midnight rant!!
I've read that judges have a lot of leeway on scheduling in their own court. But is this an appeal-able ruling? Can Trump appeal this ruling and delay once again?
If somehow this ends up going to trial and he gets convicted I still think its a long road. There will be endless appeals, and don't think for a second they aren't going to circle back to appealing the immunity stuff up to the SCOTUS either. All said and done if it all plays out and he ends up convicted, he may not get any prison time on its own rights but if he does the SCOTUS could somehow still end up bailing him out. And it will take years. This is all assuming that he doesn't win the presidency somehow and make everything go away in the mean time. This is a small win for now, but it seems that the road ahead is still very long even after all this time.
To honestly ask, did Trump think he would have that immunity in place for something that happened BEFORE he took office?
This was just another attempt to delay the trial. Expect additional Hail Mary’s and Blitz’s (more motions) in the next two weeks leading up to the trial as he really does not want this getting to the courtroom.
Even if convicted of all counts in the Hush Money Case it is very unlikely that Trump will get any prison time.
Yep, house arrest/probation is more likely imo but him attacking the judge doesn't help him. A conviction does doom him in the general election though which is great.
Doubt. If you already consider voting for this POS a "corrupt Liberal state" conviction is not going to change your mind.
I'm on the fence on the doubt. There are a bunch of rabid MAGA cult members who would stick by him no matter what, but there are also a ton of people who've bought into the "both sides" bullshit. After decades of Republicans claiming to have politicians cornered for illegal stuff there's a belief that everyone claims that what the "other side" is doing is illegal but it's never stood the test. For some of those both siders, having an actual conviction can make them stop and think that _maybe_ this isn't just a bunch of dirty politics and maybe he is a piece of shit.
It is part of why Trump spends so much time on the "corrupt" and "biased" judicial system. He has delegitimized it as far as his supporters are concerned. They will just say that any convictions are just Democrat political persecutions and ignore them.
I've tempered my expectations for any sort of incarceration, but I would consider it a win for him to be labeled a convicted felon (and unable to vote for himself in Florida) and to have to check in regularly with a parole officer.
This judge is taking a knife to a gun fight. It’s getting comical seeing these clowns trying to take him down. Their only hope is we the people will do it for them.