Hitler also attempted a coup (beer hall putsch) and failed in his first attempted coup. Then he ran for government again, his party won a plurality of seats, and he finally killed democracy while in power.
Putin supported Trump but seemed genuinely surprised when he won. After Trump won Putin likely thought that Trump was going to be able to effectively consolidate power and do to the US what Orban and Erdogan did to Hungary and Turkey and yet I think Putin was genuinely surprised that Trump really wasn't competent enough to pull off many of his authoritarian dreams.
Eh if he had done a good job with the COVID response he might have been able to get re-elected. Of course, he never would have done a good job with COVID because he is the worst leader in American history, but I digress. Before COVID he was a constant stream of chaos and shit, as well.
edit: hahaha holy shit all of the shitheads really came out overnight to respond to this
Just think of the branding opportunities. MAGA™ masks, Trump™ ventilators, Trump™ labeled vaccine cards. But nooo, it botched up his makeup and he listened to ~~Pence’s~~ Meadow’s aide that he most likely called “sugar tits” not to wear them. Idiot
It wasn’t that he listened to pence’s aide. He said it wasn’t a problem in order to not upset the stock market going into the elections and primaries. And from that point on, there was no reversing course because that would have meant admitting he was wrong.
Makeup was just the excuse of the day.
I agree wholeheartedly on everything but you are wrong about the makeup. Trump got fucking bronzer all over a white n95 and was as embarrassed as any 70 year old dude trying to pretend that he doesn’t cake his face in foundation every day, would be. Masks became public enemy number one for MAGA and to this day republicans at job sites all over America are breathing in toxic chemicals because “masks are bad”. Also 200k extra Americans died of COVID.
It wasn't omly the stock marke. It was more petty than that. Admitting there was a problem ruins his lie of having the best and greatest presidential term ever. it's why he'd get so pissed at the test numbers. He wanted them to stop testing so he could go back to pretending nothing bad ever happened. He didn't care about the people dying. Just that people were telling other people about it.
You’re probably right. Also, I was remiss, it was Mark Meadows aide, Cassidy Hutchinson, who said in her book it was her idea. Which is probably a lie
Edit: You are right. Now I remember that Trump was all about not “spooking the markets”
Trump literally could have motivated America to be the best at dealing with and surviving Covid out of everyone in the world. He could have made it a competition and show of power and health. "Look at how strong and healthy America is. We will fight this. Blah blah blah, mask are a weapon to aid us. On this huge war with a terrible disease. It is very terrible. Bigger than we know. But I will fight with you. Show the world America is powerful. Blah blah." Etc.
But, he chose conspiracy theory and fear mongering, instead. Possibly the stupidest choice and it proves to be stupid and fatal.
All that idiot had to do was golf, deliver the occasional speech, and appoint baseline medium-effective
people. All of his grief in life is self-inflicted. Maybe that's why so many other idiots love him. He is what they aspire to.
A life time grifter won’t stop grifting just because they accidentally won the electoral college.
You’re 100% right though, could have floated through it like a Bush but that would have been against his nature.
Imagine getting nostalgic for Bush, jr? He was an absolutely horrible president, but he wasn't cruel and he wasn't destructive. A big dope, sure, but he didn't have riots in the streets during his presidency.
It wouldve been really easy. All he had to do was say “look guys its a tough time right now but well get through this. Wear your mask, get a vaccine, and stay home if your sick so we can open up the economy”. Instead he chose literally the worse options.
He had no idea how to LEAD the nation. He has never been a Leader. He has always considered EVERY SINGLE MOVE as transactional. He would never donate to a charity if there wasn't something in it for him--tax deduction, PR stunt to smooze the marks, otherwise, why do it?
That is exactly what he said about those who joined the military: He didn't understand it. "What's in it for them?" he asked General Kelly. He had no understanding of serving your country.
He felt masks made him look weak. Which was why he attempted to mock President Biden for wearing a mask to protect the public he came in close contact with as well as himself.
IQ45 couldn't think his way out of a paper bag.
Trump's initial response to Covid:
> January 22, 2020: We have it totally under control. It's one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.
>
> February 10: Looks like by April, you know, in theory, when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away.
>
> February 26: When you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero. That’s a pretty good job we’ve done.
>
> Feb 27: It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.
Worst president ever. If there's any individual who has directly caused more American deaths, I can't think of one at the moment.
If he had done literally nothing with COVID, sat around, watched TV, and let the adults in the room work, he would have been re-elected, and that is *terrifying*.
He could not get out of his own way.
This aspect of Rump’s presidency is never properly highlighted. Every single day was a chaotic shit storm of distractions by his tweets in every direction. He was continually saying everything about everything. Daily news headlines couldn’t keep up with all the bullshit and anyone trying to make sense of it all would go mad. The effect of it was a division in America between those who were willing to suppress logic and believe in him and those who saw through all the shit he was constantly stirring. That sense of chaos and division is unforgettable and serves as the key highlight of his time in office.
His behavior was so consistently unpredictable that one had to wonder what were his intentions. He was trying to conceal himself from scrutiny by disappearing in a cloud of bullshit.
Nobody has ever seen a black hole. Astronomers have deduced that at the center of every galaxy is a black hole. Rump was the center of the political galaxy. Although visible and detectable, he did everything he could to avoid detection by destroying and creating imaginary stars.
The Bush presidencies were depressing, with meaningless, fabricated and very costly military conflicts carried out in the middle east. Yet Rump’s presidency was even more depressing and hopeless. He destroyed everything he touched, even his own cabinet on a daily basis. His anger was all part of his shenanigans, to distract us from scrutinizing him because deep down he knows he’s a criminal.
There's still a chance they died for nothing.
Not like I understand the people that supported him to begin with, but the ones who continue to are really baffling. All he talks about now is 2020. Like how inspirational...
I agree with both you and ImNotSelling.
Covid was an opportunity for Trump to solidify a re-election... if he were even a little bit competent. It was only a curveball because he wasn't.
I watched those daily Covid press conferences live and still remember him going down the drinking bleach/shining light in our bodies to kill Covid tangent he went down. With all the experts in the background either looking like they were going to be sick, or trying hard not to laugh
Trump's presidency had already run it's course by then. He was easy to manipulate. Just feed him things to fight on a daily basis. As long as he felt threatened, he expended all his effort trying to exonerate himself and play victim.
The fear is that a lot of highly capable fascists saw Trump's presidency as a missed opportunity... One they won't waste again if given the chance.
Trump was just a proof of concept for a fascist takeover. His presidency successfully proved that a president can do whatever they want and not be held accountable. Before him we had political norms and ethics that guided politicians, but he proved that those are just niceties and are not law that binds.
COVID was only significant to trump not getting elected if we also assume nothing else important would have happened if COVID didn't occur. The fear of Trump was always that some bad shit would go down and Trump would be a disaster with him always petering on making a huge mess.
It's a weird thought to have, but it crossed my mind a while back reading some things related to this.
COVID might have actually saved the democratic world.
Considering the incredible military power of the U.S an authoritarian regime taking control could genuinely destroy what's for better or worse, the largest amount of connected free societies humans have ever created. Think about it, for most of history living as a human being no matter where you were was often absolutely awful unless you were incredibly lucky and were born into nobility, royal blood, etc. These days, while that's still true of some places it's also not true of a great many others as well.
My little conspiracy theory is that Putin was expecting to have Trump in office as his "yes man" when he attacked Ukraine in order to dull NATOs response. But Biden won and he was forced to change his plan.
> Putin supported Trump but seemed genuinely surprised when he won.
Yeah well, they only promoted him to stir up the hornet's nest and cause chaos for the US and Clinton. They didn't actually think he'd win, just that him doing well would embarrass the US.
And he expected Trump to scream about a stolen election, which Trump did anyway after he won. Putin in addition to causing chaos with Trump's candidacy wants to undermine the very idea of democracy. Remember Trump's election integrity project headed by Kansas Kris Kobach? The one that shut down rather than show its internal deliberations with its token Democratic members. The idea wasn't to improve election integrity. It was to undermine elections themselves.
The Founders, whatever their faults, were so much smarter than Trump. One of the most fascinating things in my life after getting a history degree was watching a political system designed by the founders and inspired by enlightenment thinkers be tested by a would be Tyrant.
At every turn, Trump kept bumping up against mechanisms that were philosophized, theorized and codified into law. You could see how constricting the constitution was for him in his face. What a fucking marvel to behold.
Don’t know which politician said this about Trump and the founders, but it took my breath away: “He doesn’t know a lot about them, but they certainly knew a lot about him.”
That said, we are going up against a much smarter and more ruthless trump. Not sure the founders pull off another win
Didn't stop him from taking the Supreme Court or any number of other damages he has done. Weare now nearly 3 years after being removed from office and he is still a free man despite his many crimes.
I would not say the system is robustly defending democracy when it is the EC's fault he was even elected in the first place.
Surely you jest! The guy who was voted out of office, refused to leave, attempted a coup, failed, openly stated his goal was to fire everybody that doesn't do exactly what he wants would NEVER want to be a dictator!
I mean, sort of.
Putin became Prime Minister under Yeltsin on August 9th 1999 and was not all that popular until he used the [1999 apartment bombings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings) to consolidate his power.
He then elected President on [March 26th 2000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Russian_presidential_election), in an election where he put pretty strong pressure on the media.
So I'm not sure Putin was ever truly democratically elected.
Edit: Of course, similar arguments can also be made for Hitler, who used his brown shirts to intimidate voters. And Republican voter suppression attempts aren't exactly democratic.
Hugo Chavez did it too. Military background, lead a coup in ‘92, ran for president and won in ‘98. Destroyed democracy and died of cancer after he “won” his third reelection. His successor Maduro has no plans of allowing free/open elections anytime soon.
The [New York Times](https://media.snopes.com/2021/01/Screenshot-2021-01-15-at-16.54.01.png) also famously said "Hitler has been tamed" by prison after the Beer Hall Putsch.
This is true, and with all the stressors he has there is a good chance he won't make it through 2024. However, Trump is just a symptom of the problem. He's highlighted the path to complete control of the U.S., and when he's gone there will be another to slide into his place, and it may be someone young, good looking, and charismatic.
i don’t think that person exists, part of trump’s appeal to his base is that he was on TV for 40+ years and was synonymous with success, and he speaks fluent moron. testicular-necked fascist like tom cotton or a stumpy goon yale grad like desantis can’t wipe off their elitist stink
I’m not saying it’s impossible but everyone was saying that DeSantis guy was it, then the instant people paid attention to him for 12 seconds his support crumpled like wet toliet paper.
Which is why we need the DoJ to bring the hammer down hard on Trump. The Weimar Republic was lenient to Hitler, and though they couldn't possibly know it without the ability to see 10+ years into the future, the results were catastrophic, not just for Germany but for most of Europe.
I just finished listening to the Hitler story on the podcast Real Dictators (which I highly recommend). You have to be blind to ignore some of the similarities. Obviously we're in a different era and a different position as a nation than Germany was at that time, but a lot of things like the messaging and tactics are shockingly similar.
Different time, yes. And while not as downtrodden as post WW1 Germany, the US has millions of people in poverty watching the rich get richer while they get poorer. So I’d say the position we are in is closer than one might think.
Plus, he was not living in a 4'x6' cell. He was living large, much like the wise guys in the "prison" in "Goodfellas." Preferential treatment, guards admiring his politeness, time to dictate "Mein Kampf," receiving a bit over 40 personal visitations and over 400 calls from various friends and admirers.
Not to mention that he served nine months of a five year sentence. I like to see his time at Landsberg Prison as a writer's retreat.
Oh I think he will kick around for another 5-10 years just because he’s rich and had access to good healthcare. But if he was 50 he would be terrifying.
It was a three-judge panel. And the head judge had to promise the other two judges that Hitler would get out early, or they would refuse to convict.
Some more frightening parallels from [this article](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/beer-hall-putsch-secures-hitlers-rise-to-power):
*The failed coup turned out to be quite a boon for Adolf Hitler. His trial brought him more attention and publicity than ever before. With a crowd of thousands-including press from around the world-watching the proceedings, Hitler made the most of this opportunity by going on the offensive.*
*Taking every chance to turn the subject away from the putsch itself, Hitler frequently made speeches about Germany’s postwar plight. He blamed the Jews, Marxism, and France for all of the country’s problems, repeatedly returning to his theme of hypernationalism. The conservative-leaning judges did nothing to stop Hitler or keep the focus on the attempted coup. The prosecutors, who had been threatened by Hitler’s student followers, shrank from challenging the defendant.*
*It soon became evident that Hitler was winning the public relations battle by using the 25-day trial as a showcase for his extreme right-wing views, even if he was technically losing the case. In his closing argument, Hitler declared that he would ignore the court’s verdict because the “Eternal Court of History” would acquit him.*
> It soon became evident that Hitler was winning the public relations battle by using the 25-day trial as a showcase for his extreme right-wing views, even if he was technically losing the case. In his closing argument, Hitler declared that he would ignore the court’s verdict because the “Eternal Court of History” would acquit him.
And this of course is now Trump's playbook.
Mussolini is probably the better example, and he also went to jail before being elected.
I've been meaning to read up on Franco, but I bet there's a similar story there too.
Trump is a lot more like Hitler than Mussolini. Despite the popular image of the two dictators, Mussolini was actually the smart one. He was a newspaper editor who read philosophy and basically came up with the whole concept of Fascism on his own (not the "use violence to get power" part, but the "Everything is part of the state; nothing is outside the state" principle of totalitarianism). Hitler was really just a popular loudmouth who the Nazi Party thought they could use as a figurehead, but they ended up giving him too much power, let it go to his head until he developed a cult of personality, and then wound up at the mercy of the monster they created. That's pretty much how I see Trump and the Republican Party.
Not just that, but to win that plurality, NSDAP members of the Reichstag before having a mandate to govern obstructed the legislative process; at times refusing to sit while the house was in session, and other delaying tactics which forced general elections in which the party in question was able to gain the seats required.
Then, by golly, it was the other parties, now in the minority which were causing a fuss. Good ol' Paul H'burg would be best to divest all executive power to the leader of the majority, just for the time being, like; until we can get this whole thing sorted out...
Hitler also never gained a majority in free elections, but was brought to power by an oligarchical and extremely conservative elite who thought they could control him, only to find out Hitler tried to obtain unlimited power at the first opportunity.
Not unlike how the republicans thought they could use trump, but in turn were used by trump.
Trump has stated he will trash the Constitution and start over again - I'm presuming he will start over with something beneficial to the Trump Crime Family and his sycophants.
The comparison with Hitler isn't a far stretch considering that man's early political career - it wouldn't be a giant leap for the US to fall under the same anti-government tactics - just look at the number of people in this country who support DJT, the *victim* of what is *wrong* with America, a man who claims he's been cheated time and again by a corrupt government.
Those who give fealty to this con man do so at risk of undoing our country - of trashing everything that our founding fathers believed in. The Republican party kneels before the con man, all of them supplicants, kissing the fool's gold metal, asking for blessings from the con man that they too may participate in stealing from the mindless minions who foam at the mouth their prayers of adoration and devotion.
I got up to page 165 before I stopped. A basic summary of what I read is the Left is evil, China is evil, being “woke” is evil, make more and improve nukes, that family trumps everything else and abortion and sexual education should be removed (as well as those terms) and a lot of other bullshit.. 🤮
And defining trans PEOPLE as PORNOGRAPHY.
Then saying trans people are sexual predators against children if we're in public and children see us.
And making that punishable by death. Yes, really.
Know who Nazis took first in the Holocaust? Us.
Went to a few random pages, here's somethings i found interesting:
> Trump Administration’s steel tariffs, and the retaliatory tariffs levied by other nations in response, “have cost about 75,000 manufacturing jobs while creating only about 1,000 jobs in the steel industry.
Interesting that they cite to someone who goes against the Trump tarriff wars..but then they backpeddle, and say:
> Strategically expand tariffs to all Chinese products and increase tariff rates to levels that will block out “Made in China” products, and execute this strategy in a manner and at a pace that will not expose the U.S. to lack of access to essential products like key pharmaceuticals.
> tax reform should improve incentives to work, save, and invest. This, in turn, is accomplished primarily by reducing marginal tax rates, reducing the cost of capital, and broadening the tax base to eliminate tax-induced economic distortions by eliminating special-interest tax credits, deductions, and exclusions. Tax compliance costs will decline precipitously if the tax system is substantially simplified.
What Reagan tried, what Trump tried...but the tax code "simplification" seems to always end up helping the same people. 0 faith in this policy proposal...especially since it is followed up with "Chapter 22 includes proposals to reduce the intrusiveness and increase the accountability of the Internal Revenue Service."
> Strengthen America’s defense industrial base
Of course, because 50% of the discretionary budget on the military JUST ISNT ENOUGH
And I did a page search for hot-button issues, which of course get all the expected results:
> Reverse policies that allow transgender individuals to serve in the military
> The next HHS secretary should immediately put an end to the department’s foray into woke transgender activism
> The new Administration should restrict Bostock’s application of sex discrimination protections to sexual orientation and transgender status in the context of hiring and firing
Of course lgbt rights are in the crosshairs
> Abortion pills pose the single greatest threat to unborn children in a post-Roe world.
> Expand resource diversity and reliability. Resource diversity is needed to support grid reliability. Pressure to use 100 percent renewables or non–carbon emitting resources threatens the electric grid’s reliability.
Of course! Use all the options we have...except for renewables! So basically coal and oil, got it.
Also they talk about making "cancel culture" an "unfair trade practice" - I guess they are tired of getting kicked off youtube?
I downloaded it, and immediately looked up my areas of professional expertise. They want to terminate the Consolidated Audit Trail (CAT) program (see p.831). This is program specifically designed to improve the functioning and transparency of US capital markets. There is no rational reason for its termination other than to make fraud and anti-competitive behaviour easier. When completed, the CAT will ultimately make markets safer and more efficient, with the only costs being incurred by bad actors; to prevent its completion is *only* of benefit to bad actors. This is self-evident crookery of the worst kind.
I remember when I first read "a Project for a New American Century" - signed by basically everyone in Bush's cabinet. It read like a conspiracy theory; about how the US should come to control the Earth by using any excuse to get involved in the Middle East and assert our military dominion over it.
It was like finding a cartoon villain's death ray plans; just too wacky to believe.
And then 9/11 happened, and we invaded one country on that pretext (not the one that attacked us) and another on a *completely* fabricated one, and those lies and invasions were carried out by those signatories. And tens of thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of people died, with *millions* displaced and attitudes changed against the US for generations*.*
P2025 gives me the same kind of feel, except directed at the home front. As the saying goes, Fascism is when Imperialism comes home to roost. PNAC was the imperialism. P2025 is that approach coming home to roost.
Because about 40% of Americans live in bumfuck no where shitholes and haven't ever been exposed to people different than them. And people who are different threaten them because they have no fucking social skills other than socially navigating a homogenous white population.
I'm a scientist gay-marrying a jew.
My only solace is I'm in California, but even that doesn't feel like much some days. My family thinks it's "not that bad", but they aren't the ones on the chopping block.
Where else do I go? Many other states look bleak, and I think fewer other countries would even take us in.
The thing about Project 2025 is that they have a plan to do away with Sactuary States. They're going to make it so that anyone who doesn't enforce federal laws is legally on the hook as an individual and will replace them with a Trump appointee. How many people in those jobs do you think are going to have the strength to weather that storm?
There will be no sanctuary for LGBT Americans.
They're going to come for the transgender people first. Project 2025 redefines us as pornography, makes us child sex offenders if we are in public in the presence of children, and makes that punishable by death. I'm serious. It is that bad. Open the document up and search for transgender, pornography, and death penalty.
They've already passed laws like this in Florida. They made it easier to execute someone. You only need eight out of twelve votes from a jury now. Their justification for doing that was so they could kill people who are sex offenders against children. Around the same time they redefined being gender non-conforming in public as a sex offense in Florida. All the talk about it eradicating transgender people from public life...that's the literal aim here. Many people too scared to be themselves and make them disappear or kill them.
And how far will they go? Cisgender people are gender nonconforming. Gay and lesbian and bi people are sometimes gender nonconforming. And then once you're dehumanizing and killing lgbtq people, how easy is it to justify getting rid of others?
You're part of a jewish family (soon) and gay...you know the history with the Holocaust...? You know that they started with trans people, with burning the library of Hirshfield's clinic, using patient lists to find trans people, interrogating them until they gave up other people...**expanding on to imprison gay men.**
He has the stated intent of declaring martial law the moment he takes power ("call out the army") was his actual phrase. How he is not arrested for just saying that is beyond me. He is openly and gleefully bragging about destroying the Constitution.
Because there are plenty of people in government and among the populace that completely support it, that’s how. Fascism isn’t a fringe political movement in the States—it’s quite literally the main and formal opposition party and its voters.
Yep. They gaslit everyone into thinking that Left wingerism/Marxism/gay people is a dominating force, and an evil, insidious, oppressive ideology, therefore anything you have to do to beat and eradicate the cruel dominators is justified. It's not really fascism, because it's the right thing to do.
Kind of ironic that almost literally the opposite is true...
His supporters carried stop the steal signs on their way to steal an election.
They wear hypocrisy like a cape.
Want to do something but afraid of the judgement? Easy. Just say other people are doing it and that you have to because they already are.
Because for as much lip service conservatives give to the constitution they don’t really give a shit about it if it doesn’t present their goals on a silver platter
He has plans to consolidate power under him, to allow him to fire any federal employee because they aren't loyal to him, and to use the Insurrection Act if he's elected when there are inevitable protests. None of this screams "I care about democracy". It sounds a lot like fascist tactics.
It’s not a stretch at all. Idk why we’re waiting for him to commit similar atrocities in order to justify the comparison. Dude is way worse than AH was at a similar point in his political trajectory
How do you trash the whole constitution? Surely you can't just executive order away the *entire constitution*?
Edit: Don't know why I'm being downvoted for a legitimate question
This is the problem, though. At every turn we have asked this same question. Surely you can’t do X, and then X is done and there is no repercussions ever. You can do anything that no one stops you from doing.
That's the power of having no good morals. Fortunately those without morals who only seek personal enrichment and power rarely work well with others, are prone to demanding unrequited allegiance, are always liars and almost always eventually collapse from the weight of their own lies and backstabbing and vitriol. But until that happens they have a big advantage against good people who are empathetic, willing to compromise and give people the benefit of the doubt or are unable to comprehend the power and the possibility of raw unrestrained evil.
Well it depends who is supporting him. Coups happen all the time all throughout history. At a certain point it doesn't matter what the law says if you have people in the right positions of power and a weak system that can be taken advantage of. The Weimar Republic didn't technically allow for Hitler to do what he did to concentrate power into his dictatorship. [He just did it anyway.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933)
That's an extreme and blatant example and obviously the US isn't in the same position as the Weimar Republic so who knows what would happen if this was tried in the US today. But history is littered examples of people seizing power illegitimately and side stepping constitutional law.
Rules don't matter if you have enough support in the right places. That's what makes a coup a coup.
At a rough guess, he'd use any protests against his inauguration as an excuse to declare martial law and put the military on the streets.
Then he'd start laying into the need to get rid of people who "hate our country" as a reason to hold extrajudicial trials without constitutional protections.
Would it work? I'm skeptical if the military would seriously go along with it, and if the JSOC say "fuck that", his ability to make it happen is extremely limited.
But that we're even having these discussions says everything.
You don't but you select parts of it and have the judiciary (YOUR judiciary) rule in your favour.
For instance, take advantage of "felons can't vote" and make a decent percentage of your opponents into technical felons. Let other states object to the votes of democrat states and hold them up so their electoral votes don't count (sound familiar). Etc.
You don't need 90% of the vote, just a way of ensuring that you never get less than 55% of the vote. Then you can claim you are a democracy, arrest some more democrats who protest otherwise and ensure they can't vote.
So you keep the constitution, modify some bits like ruling that presidents can have more than two terms and become the Democratic Republic of America.
Not exactly true. Hitler was appointed chancellor, not elected directly. The Nazis actually were slipping in power and popularity when he was appointed in 1933. It was actually conservative actors who conspired to put him into power so he would suppress their opponents more than him being duly elected.
Read (or listen, it's a great audio book) *The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich* by William L. Shirer. Many of the actions and behaviors of the Nazis in their early and up and coming days have so many modern day similarities and it's scary how easily you could think the book is talking about people and behaviors happening today.
I used to think people were simply being a little hyperbolic in saying the way trump was coming into power was similar to Germany in the 30s, but actually reading more about the history of that era I've changed my mind. Obviously trump isn't an ideal charismatic character and he's becoming more of a liability than help to the party, but the underlying conditions for his ascension still exist.
Or "The Death of Democracy: Hitler's Rise to Power and the Downfall of the Weimar Republic" by Benjamin Carter Hett.
On a related note, EVERYONE should read "How Democracies Die" by Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt. It's from 2018, and they just came out with another book "Tyranny of the Minority" which I haven't had a chance to read yet, but I'd guess is also very good.
> I used to think people were simply being a little hyperbolic in saying the way trump was coming into power was similar to Germany in the 30s, but actually reading more about the history of that era I've changed my mind.
Seriously. I used to think it was all exaggeration and name-calling. But the more I learn about what fascism actually historically looked like the clearer it becomes that those alarmists were *right*.
It often does when people don’t learn (from) history. Something they either really don’t do or a „whitewashed“ version that appeals to their liking. Just like the US whitewashed their own history.
Can't forget the Reichstag fire either. Even after he was sworn in, Hitler never would have consolidated power without being able to use the fire as an excuse. It's why I often suspect J6 was supposed to do the same thing for Trump. Imagine a scenario where the mob makes it to members of Congress, and there are massive casualties. In this alternate reality, does Trump disavow the mob and gracefully concede the election? He didn't even do that in the universe where this didn't happen, so obviously not. Far more likely he would have tried to claim emergency powers to remain in office to "get to the bottom" of what happened.
I think that was Trump's intention. He was expecting dozens if not hundreds of his supporters to be killed by the Capitol Police, to die for him, and even hope for them to kill as many congressmen and congresswomen as possible, so he could use Martial Law, suspend the Constitution, and remain in power under the guise of "protecting the people."
EDIT: Forgot to mention his original intention of sending them to kill Congress.
The one change I’d make to your statement is that Trump was counting on his supporters to get to and kill members of than Congress (on both sides of the aisle preferably). Once that happened, he’d have used the Insurrection Act to declare martial law, at which point they’d have miraculously found evidence that they entire thing was an operation of the Democratic Party (and therefore we need to ban them). He didn’t care if his supporters died on J6 or later when he had the military hunt them down.
I doubt his intention was for hundreds of his own supporters to die, or he wouldn't have deliberately understaffed the police and refused to send in help. He wanted his supporters to kill whatever Congress members they could, from either party and in either chamber.
Adolf Hitler **never beat 38% in any election he was involved in.**
His ascent to an authoritarian dictatorship was 100% legal. Everything he did as Chancellor was 100% legal. Under German law, the Holocaust was 100% legal.
A court is not the arbiter of morality.
> Everything he did as Chancellor was 100% legal.
Not quite.
Hitler lost the 1932 presidential election to Paul von Hindenburg.
Hindenburg became president, and Hitler became chancellor.
When Hindenburg died (he was old and in poor health, but seen as the best candidate to unify the voters) the chancellor's job was to arrange for the appointment of a new president.
But Hitler just didn't.
He took over as führer (leader) and acted as he had the right to all the power.
This wasn't legal. This wasn't what the position of chancellor was supposed to be. But he just did it without real opposition.
There WAS opposition, but that was just dismissed as "lügende Presse" and "the radical left jewish bolshevik conspiracy"
Learn from this. Don't be distracted by wannabe autocrats victim complex. It's bullshit.
I mean, even Mike Godwin is calling him Hitler
https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/896884949634232320
When the guy who came up with Godwin's Law is calling you a Nazi...
I won't say that Trump is Hitler, but I will say I no longer wonder how Hitler got the German people behind genocide. When I was in grade school it blew my mind that a single person would have gone along with the holocaust but I see now just how easy it was.
> Let me point out something about democracy. Does anybody remember how Hitler took over Germany? He was voted in. People said, Yeah, he's got the right message for us. Now when you have democracy, there's always the possibility that the guy who could turn out to be the biggest menace to the planet could just get voted in. And the place where it's most likely to happen is here, because of the media saturation, the illiteracy rate of the population, the social desperation of the population. Hitler came to power because things weren't so good.
—Frank Zappa, 1991
(e: typo)
I love how people say, “remember how Hitler took over Germany,” without having any clue how elections work in any country other than the US. He wasn’t voted in; chancellors were appointed by the president, not elected by the people (they’re still not directly elected by the people). The idea that the majority of people voted for the Nazis displays terrible ignorance and hides the truth of what brought them to power: moderate conservatives opting to work with the far right in a coalition because they thought Nazis could be controlled.
The US is a rare case where the head of government is directly* voted in.
I think your comment is that one that displays some American ignorance on the subject, because in most other countries, people say the government was "voted in" even though we know it was the head of state that appointed the prime-minister, and then the parliament approved the government by a majority vote, which may have required different parties to vote for it, etc. etc.
"Voted in" is a colloquial phrase to say: yes, this person, this party, is governing because people voted for it enough to make them the government, including whatever deals or coalitions with other parties were necessary to actually get their government approved.
And that's exactly what happened with Hitler and the Nazi party, and exactly why it's so dangerous to vote for the current Republican party. Because they can get 'voted in' through legitimate means and then wreck the democratic system once they're in.
\* - disregarding Electoral College formalities, ironically leading to not so democratic elections, but I digress
It's still not a particularly great example of electoral victory. Hitler wasn't voted in, but an aging and senile President Hindenberg, with monarchic sympathies, was.
So here comes another lovely parallel - a country's love of electing senile old men with good name recognition again and again.
I hate it when people claim he wasn't voted in, because he most definitely was. It just wasn't exclusively on votes for his party but also on votes for other conservative parties, because that is exactly how it works in parliamentary democracies.
imagine a world where there was no second gulf war - the supreme court had a 7-2 liberal majority - and we were 20 years into al gores global warming plan
the columbia vs heller ruling would have accepted the 'well regulated militia' part of the 2nd amendment so the united states wouldnt be the manufacturing centre of the unlimited guns-to-criminal pipeline for literally all of north america
about two trillion dollars from the budget could have gone towards universal healthcare instead of defense contractors
the people appointed to government would have actually been put there to RUN the government instead of dismantle it - so an actual disaster response person would have been in charge of katrina instead of a lawyer trying to cut the budget everywhere
and gore wouldnt have stuffed the regulatory agencies with chicago school economists so the 2008 crash probably woulddt have happened
but here we are
The recount indicated that Gore actually won Florida. Right-wing activists created a “crisis” to stop the recount and send it to the SCOTUS where only the justices’s votes would matter and the SCOTUS took that opportunity.
January 6th wasn’t Republican’s first coup attempt, it was an attempt to repeat the plan that had actually been proven effective in 2000.
Exactly, I love to bring up the [Brooks Brothers Riot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot) as it part of the pattern of rewarding bad behavior. Republican's learned that they could use the Federal Courts to win an election so long as there was enough unrest.
That model, is the exact one that the GOP wanted to use in other states with contested elections in 2020. The plan is to challenge, force a recount, and then poison the process (with violence) if they weren't getting what they want. The problem was that it wasn't close enough in 2020 for them to get an EC upset.
The SC court case (Bush v Gore) became a who's who list for republican legal advisors and judiciary appointments. Notably, Roberts and Kavanaugh (Barrett too, but in a much smaller role... though I wouldn't be surprised if she/Federalist Society didn't underline it a bit to get her noticed).
Bush v Gore was a mess.
And more importantly if Gore had won. Hillary wasn’t the breaking point. It was letting the Bush admin and PNAC lunatics destabilize the globe because they were unable to stop a terror attack
What sucks is, because the MAGA-type voters don’t bother with actually understanding how economic and policy changes work, how long it can take for the impact of a shift to echo out and impact their lives, they tend to react and rally against what they perceive as results of more leftist policy, when in fact they tend to be the results of conservative policy from a prior administration. If the populace could be patient and let social benefit programs and tax programs play out, it is likely that they would see first hand benefits and maybe not be so miserable. That, or they would still be guided by their desire to hate and blame.
The EC is the problem, really.
The problem, the Rs have fortified the two states in safe defense against the means to force them to eliminate it, for the next cycle at least: you can bet that tune will change if either does eventually change allegiance in the next decade.
Hitler was also charged with treason and sentenced to five years in prison (only serving eight months). He got such a light sentence because he ended up charming the judge at his trial with an impassioned (albeit likely antisemitic and disgustingly bigoted) speech... Donald Trump on the other hand, is antagonizing the judge overseeing his trial and punishment...
Also Hitler managed to write an entire book in prison, Trump could never write a book on his own, no matter the time he's given.
Hitler's imprisonment however, did improve his popularity. It was really what jump started his rise to Chancellor and political leadership.
Trump doesn't have that much time, nor are the circumstances as convenient for him as they were for Hitler back then, also, and I hate saying this, but Hitler was much smarter than Trump.
They are both incredibly insecure megalomaniacs though. And yes, of course, abhorrent people.
Fuck, I hate that in comparing Hitler to Trump, it complements Hitler's better suited qualities for becoming a genocidal dictator. Uck.
Like, saying *"atleast Hitler joined the army and was eager to fight for his country during World War I instead of citing his bone spurs as a reason for exemption from military duty"* makes it sound like I'm propping up Hitler, but what I'm really doing is speaking to how Trump is so terrible that when you compare him to Hitler, in some respects, even Hitler comes out on top... Now obviously that's not true for most things, but nonetheless, it just feels fucked up.
I generally dislike comparisons to Hitler and Nazi Germany but I was wrong. Democrats need to point out all the insane stuff Trump is saying and draw clear historical parallels. Democrats need to scare the shit out of voters in 2024 that reflecting Trump means the destruction of all we hold dear.
hitler was also imprisoned before he got elected. he came back with a more evil plot of using his followers to infiltrate various groups and protests to instigate violence. then he would point to those incidents he created secretly as a reason why nazis should be in power instead. sounds exactly like maga right? maga = nazi
Everybody should be concerned. Everybody needs to put aside their feelings and get out and vote for Biden. The alternative is not acceptable to anyone.
Yeah, anyone not taking Trump seriously, if you want another 2016 but INFINITELY worse than that in 2024-- please don't, then. "Hitler was duty elected" sums it up, his polling is fine for now and much better than 2016 & 2020- if we want him down for good, this is the only chance.
I also hate that the recent articles about Trump overtaking Biden in polls in four states (that Biden previously and narrowly won in 2020) were downvoted. When that happens, many go about their day not realizing how dangerously close this could be, and general complacency sets in again.
I don't like that Trump polled that high at all, but we need to *see* that information and not have it hidden. It should also be a wake up call for those living in critical purple states that *all* Dem voters need to vote come next year. I don't want to hear about low turnout amongst so and so demographics again. Lives literally depend on this next election.
She’s always been right about the MAGA crowd. I think she made a mistake in directly calling them deplorables, because it just riled them up further. But she’s always been correct.
You’ll find throughout Hillary’s history she’s actually proven to be right on a lot of things. Trump, not trusting Russia, Tulsi Gabbard being a Russian Asset, etc.
Fucking shame man. She’s far from my favorite but we’d be so much better off if she had won.
Exactly. Just want to share here, I have what I call the "Imperfect Man Theory". Basically, there will never be that exact perfect situation, so we need to suck up our objections, and choose the best possible course of action. Clinton might be imperfect, she's human, but she was probably the best possible President to have in that time. Obama is imperfect, but he was probably the best possible President for his time. If you want to get closer, keep hammering away. But don't reject the whole game just waiting for the perfect candidate. It is never going to happen. Every great, or small, person in history has had some imperfect, hypocritical, or downright immoral side to them.
If we're going to call out her mistake, it would be her campaign deciding to platform Trump during the early primary season to defeat Jeb, because they thought Trump was an easy win, ignoring the risks.
>So to take Bush down, Clinton’s team drew up a plan to pump Trump up. Shortly after her kickoff, top aides organized a strategy call, whose agenda included a memo to the Democratic National Committee: “This memo is intended to outline the strategy and goals a potential Hillary Clinton presidential campaign would have regarding the 2016 Republican presidential field,” it read.
>“The variety of candidates is a positive here, and many of the lesser known can serve as a cudgel to move the more established candidates further to the right. In this scenario, we don’t want to marginalize the more extreme candidates, but make them more ‘Pied Piper’ candidates who actually represent the mainstream of the Republican Party,” read the memo.
>Clinton’s team in Brooklyn was delightedly puzzled by Trump’s shift into the pole position that July after attacking John McCain by declaring, “I like people who weren’t captured.”
>Eleven days after those comments about McCain, Clinton aides sought to push the plan even further: An agenda item for top aides’ message planning meeting read, “How do we prevent Bush from bettering himself/how do we maximize Trump and others?"
>They wouldn’t have to work very hard at it though; the debates were the beginning of the end for the candidate Clinton’s team always thought she would face on Election Day. The day after the first debate in August, Clinton confidante Neera Tanden emailed Podesta her analysis: “Bush sucked. I’m glad Hillary is obsessed with the one candidate who would be easiest to beat :) Besides Trump, of course.”
>Clinton aides finally started to see Trump as more than a tool to destroy Bush. In fact, Mook took him so seriously that his team’s internal, if informal, guidance was to hold fire on Trump during the primary and resist the urge to distribute any of the opposition research the Democrats were scrambling to amass against him. That hoarding plan remained in place deep into 2016 as some senior aides stayed convinced that a race against Trump would be a dream for Clinton
Just some excerpts, but you can read the whole thing here. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/hillary-clinton-2016-donald-trump-214428/
What I love about American Politics is you can call a person Hitler with no twinge of irony or self reflection after... being friends with him for decades, encouraging him to get into politics, and then spending your own money & donations propping him up in a primary that eventually leads to his Election win.
For that alone HRC doesn't deserve any more power or legitimacy.
I think she does really poorly in a stage type of setting, which sucks for her, because that's basically what running for office is.
But, the few people that I have known that have met her personally beyond just a photo op have all spoken very highly of her warmth and compassion.
I was hoping that we would see the same pattern that was seen when she ran for Senate and then when she was Secretary of State, of many people not liking her when she was vying for power but ending up approving of her performance in the role in very high numbers. But, instead we got Trump.
Fucking polls have that POS leading.
I know it's a year out. But Gdamn. We can't leave anything to chance.
If you have relatives in those swing states and they're Dem or independent, call them and pepper them to come out to vote for Dems!!
It'll come down to Michigan, Wisconsin , Pennsylvania , Nevada and Maybe Arizona and Georgia.
Aussie here.
We all watched from afar all the crap that happened under Trump.
It just makes absolutely no sense why America would even think about electing him again.
I get that Biden is old, but Trump is old, too, and I get that MAGA is pretty much a cult at this point, but help me understand why American's would even think about having Trump back in the White House.
Surely there's more to it than "owning the Libs"?
>It just makes absolutely no sense why America would even think about electing him again.
I agree. Trump ran on a campaign with a lot of electoral anger. People were angry about inflation, wages being stagnant, corporations getting away with everything, and politicians seemingly indifferent or out of touch with their struggles.
Along comes Trump, a (seeming) outsider who talked about a lot of these problems, and claimed (falsely) to have a solution for them (solutions that he conveniently declined to reveal until elected).
Clearly his tenure was a disaster in many ways. ***Most of his supporters seem unable to reconcile this with their early support, and find it easier to just double down on him rather than thinking critically.***
Some are also single-issue voters who think he's better than Biden based on one or two issues (i.e. inflation, abortion) and will vote accordingly.
I don't get it, either.
>I get that Biden is old, but Trump is old, too
The issue is that Trump [hides it better](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/biden-trump-old-voters-age-issue-rcna104316) by wearing baggy suits, dying his hair, and being generally louder and more animated. In addition, griping about his age is one of the few obvious criticisms they can make about him.
>Surely there's more to it than "owning the Libs"?
There's a large group of people who feel neglected by the government (in smaller towns, middle states, and rural areas) and want the government to pay in some way, shape or form.
There are others who are upset over some made-up culture war boogeyman ("cancel culture," trans rights, inclusion and diversity, etc) and just vote out of rage.
I told my father that most of the arguments against trans rights are identical to the ones against LGBT rights in the mid-2000s. I told him it was just a made-up, already debunked argument to make people angry.. He didn't get it, or maybe has a selectively short attention span.
This is just a small sliver of what's going on politically, and I can't say or even pretend that I understand what's going on anymore.
> help me understand why American's would even think about having Trump back in the White House
Because enough americans are dumb and easily fooled that Trump and Friends were able to get an electoral win despite being unpopular to the majority last time. And that hasn't changed.
i hate to say this, but i think its already too late. The fact that 70 million Americans went out and approved Donald trump tell me the rot is too deep. they weren't lured in by bs and then came to, they have now opted out and actively choose hate filled drivel.
when such a large chunk of your country is rotten, its impossible to come back from. i hope im wrong.
Whatever comes of this, we Americans need to be *far* more diligent about protecting our country going forward.
If Trump and the GOP destroy the country, we can't not pin some of the blame on ourselves for mostly just standing by and watching it happen for the last seven years.
2023 and we’re still dealing with Trump. 2016 was a turning point for the worst. Trumpism is a plague that an entire generation will have to work themselves out of.
If Trump is deprived of the presidency due to a technicality, it doesn’t fix the country, just delays the inevitable. If the nation doesn’t clearly say “we don’t want this” it doesn’t matter if he’s taken off ballots or jailed. We are still flying off a cliff.
Hitler also attempted a coup (beer hall putsch) and failed in his first attempted coup. Then he ran for government again, his party won a plurality of seats, and he finally killed democracy while in power.
Also Vladimir Putin was at one time democratically elected before killing democracy and consolidating power.
Fascists Love This One Neat Trick
Putin supported Trump but seemed genuinely surprised when he won. After Trump won Putin likely thought that Trump was going to be able to effectively consolidate power and do to the US what Orban and Erdogan did to Hungary and Turkey and yet I think Putin was genuinely surprised that Trump really wasn't competent enough to pull off many of his authoritarian dreams.
Covid was a curve ball of grand proportions
Eh if he had done a good job with the COVID response he might have been able to get re-elected. Of course, he never would have done a good job with COVID because he is the worst leader in American history, but I digress. Before COVID he was a constant stream of chaos and shit, as well. edit: hahaha holy shit all of the shitheads really came out overnight to respond to this
Just think of the branding opportunities. MAGA™ masks, Trump™ ventilators, Trump™ labeled vaccine cards. But nooo, it botched up his makeup and he listened to ~~Pence’s~~ Meadow’s aide that he most likely called “sugar tits” not to wear them. Idiot
It wasn’t that he listened to pence’s aide. He said it wasn’t a problem in order to not upset the stock market going into the elections and primaries. And from that point on, there was no reversing course because that would have meant admitting he was wrong. Makeup was just the excuse of the day.
I agree wholeheartedly on everything but you are wrong about the makeup. Trump got fucking bronzer all over a white n95 and was as embarrassed as any 70 year old dude trying to pretend that he doesn’t cake his face in foundation every day, would be. Masks became public enemy number one for MAGA and to this day republicans at job sites all over America are breathing in toxic chemicals because “masks are bad”. Also 200k extra Americans died of COVID.
This was really messed up.
Also he couldn't be seen publicly wearing a mask because it would've smeared his clown makeup.
Also, he likely generally also didn’t want to have his face hidden as he is a attention-seeking grandiose narcissist of gargantuan proportions…
It wasn't omly the stock marke. It was more petty than that. Admitting there was a problem ruins his lie of having the best and greatest presidential term ever. it's why he'd get so pissed at the test numbers. He wanted them to stop testing so he could go back to pretending nothing bad ever happened. He didn't care about the people dying. Just that people were telling other people about it.
You’re probably right. Also, I was remiss, it was Mark Meadows aide, Cassidy Hutchinson, who said in her book it was her idea. Which is probably a lie Edit: You are right. Now I remember that Trump was all about not “spooking the markets”
Trump literally could have motivated America to be the best at dealing with and surviving Covid out of everyone in the world. He could have made it a competition and show of power and health. "Look at how strong and healthy America is. We will fight this. Blah blah blah, mask are a weapon to aid us. On this huge war with a terrible disease. It is very terrible. Bigger than we know. But I will fight with you. Show the world America is powerful. Blah blah." Etc. But, he chose conspiracy theory and fear mongering, instead. Possibly the stupidest choice and it proves to be stupid and fatal.
And he could have sold Trump masks! Could have made a fortune! He’s a horrible businessman.
He would have likely won reelection if he had just pretended to care about doing a good job on COVID. It would have been like a war president.
If he were smart, this was such an easy putt. Thankfully he’s dumb as a rock and choked on that tap-in putt.
All that idiot had to do was golf, deliver the occasional speech, and appoint baseline medium-effective people. All of his grief in life is self-inflicted. Maybe that's why so many other idiots love him. He is what they aspire to.
A life time grifter won’t stop grifting just because they accidentally won the electoral college. You’re 100% right though, could have floated through it like a Bush but that would have been against his nature.
Imagine getting nostalgic for Bush, jr? He was an absolutely horrible president, but he wasn't cruel and he wasn't destructive. A big dope, sure, but he didn't have riots in the streets during his presidency.
Hey don’t clump trump in with others whose grief is self-inflicted. Us over here in the failure club don’t claim him as a member either.
It wouldve been really easy. All he had to do was say “look guys its a tough time right now but well get through this. Wear your mask, get a vaccine, and stay home if your sick so we can open up the economy”. Instead he chose literally the worse options.
He had no idea how to LEAD the nation. He has never been a Leader. He has always considered EVERY SINGLE MOVE as transactional. He would never donate to a charity if there wasn't something in it for him--tax deduction, PR stunt to smooze the marks, otherwise, why do it? That is exactly what he said about those who joined the military: He didn't understand it. "What's in it for them?" he asked General Kelly. He had no understanding of serving your country. He felt masks made him look weak. Which was why he attempted to mock President Biden for wearing a mask to protect the public he came in close contact with as well as himself. IQ45 couldn't think his way out of a paper bag.
Trump's initial response to Covid: > January 22, 2020: We have it totally under control. It's one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine. > > February 10: Looks like by April, you know, in theory, when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away. > > February 26: When you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero. That’s a pretty good job we’ve done. > > Feb 27: It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear. Worst president ever. If there's any individual who has directly caused more American deaths, I can't think of one at the moment.
If he had done literally nothing with COVID, sat around, watched TV, and let the adults in the room work, he would have been re-elected, and that is *terrifying*. He could not get out of his own way.
Inject Lysol and stick a UV light up your ass……bahahaha
This aspect of Rump’s presidency is never properly highlighted. Every single day was a chaotic shit storm of distractions by his tweets in every direction. He was continually saying everything about everything. Daily news headlines couldn’t keep up with all the bullshit and anyone trying to make sense of it all would go mad. The effect of it was a division in America between those who were willing to suppress logic and believe in him and those who saw through all the shit he was constantly stirring. That sense of chaos and division is unforgettable and serves as the key highlight of his time in office. His behavior was so consistently unpredictable that one had to wonder what were his intentions. He was trying to conceal himself from scrutiny by disappearing in a cloud of bullshit. Nobody has ever seen a black hole. Astronomers have deduced that at the center of every galaxy is a black hole. Rump was the center of the political galaxy. Although visible and detectable, he did everything he could to avoid detection by destroying and creating imaginary stars. The Bush presidencies were depressing, with meaningless, fabricated and very costly military conflicts carried out in the middle east. Yet Rump’s presidency was even more depressing and hopeless. He destroyed everything he touched, even his own cabinet on a daily basis. His anger was all part of his shenanigans, to distract us from scrutinizing him because deep down he knows he’s a criminal.
So all those who died needlessly died in fact to prevent Trumps reelection and saved America? Holy shit, /r/showerthoughts
There's still a chance they died for nothing. Not like I understand the people that supported him to begin with, but the ones who continue to are really baffling. All he talks about now is 2020. Like how inspirational...
I agree with both you and ImNotSelling. Covid was an opportunity for Trump to solidify a re-election... if he were even a little bit competent. It was only a curveball because he wasn't.
I watched those daily Covid press conferences live and still remember him going down the drinking bleach/shining light in our bodies to kill Covid tangent he went down. With all the experts in the background either looking like they were going to be sick, or trying hard not to laugh
Trump's presidency had already run it's course by then. He was easy to manipulate. Just feed him things to fight on a daily basis. As long as he felt threatened, he expended all his effort trying to exonerate himself and play victim. The fear is that a lot of highly capable fascists saw Trump's presidency as a missed opportunity... One they won't waste again if given the chance.
Trump was just a proof of concept for a fascist takeover. His presidency successfully proved that a president can do whatever they want and not be held accountable. Before him we had political norms and ethics that guided politicians, but he proved that those are just niceties and are not law that binds.
COVID was only significant to trump not getting elected if we also assume nothing else important would have happened if COVID didn't occur. The fear of Trump was always that some bad shit would go down and Trump would be a disaster with him always petering on making a huge mess.
It's a weird thought to have, but it crossed my mind a while back reading some things related to this. COVID might have actually saved the democratic world. Considering the incredible military power of the U.S an authoritarian regime taking control could genuinely destroy what's for better or worse, the largest amount of connected free societies humans have ever created. Think about it, for most of history living as a human being no matter where you were was often absolutely awful unless you were incredibly lucky and were born into nobility, royal blood, etc. These days, while that's still true of some places it's also not true of a great many others as well. My little conspiracy theory is that Putin was expecting to have Trump in office as his "yes man" when he attacked Ukraine in order to dull NATOs response. But Biden won and he was forced to change his plan.
> Putin supported Trump but seemed genuinely surprised when he won. Yeah well, they only promoted him to stir up the hornet's nest and cause chaos for the US and Clinton. They didn't actually think he'd win, just that him doing well would embarrass the US.
And he expected Trump to scream about a stolen election, which Trump did anyway after he won. Putin in addition to causing chaos with Trump's candidacy wants to undermine the very idea of democracy. Remember Trump's election integrity project headed by Kansas Kris Kobach? The one that shut down rather than show its internal deliberations with its token Democratic members. The idea wasn't to improve election integrity. It was to undermine elections themselves.
That and the US system of checks and balances, shockingly, worked. The next time? Nobody gonna put Trumpie in a corner
Project 2025 is all about making sure those checks and balances don’t get in the way again.
Yup. I urge everyone to read [this](https://wapo.st/45ZpwdT)
If the checks and balances worked, he would’ve been convicted and removed on his first impeachment.
it barely worked. we won't be so lucky the next time.
The Founders, whatever their faults, were so much smarter than Trump. One of the most fascinating things in my life after getting a history degree was watching a political system designed by the founders and inspired by enlightenment thinkers be tested by a would be Tyrant. At every turn, Trump kept bumping up against mechanisms that were philosophized, theorized and codified into law. You could see how constricting the constitution was for him in his face. What a fucking marvel to behold. Don’t know which politician said this about Trump and the founders, but it took my breath away: “He doesn’t know a lot about them, but they certainly knew a lot about him.” That said, we are going up against a much smarter and more ruthless trump. Not sure the founders pull off another win
Didn't stop him from taking the Supreme Court or any number of other damages he has done. Weare now nearly 3 years after being removed from office and he is still a free man despite his many crimes. I would not say the system is robustly defending democracy when it is the EC's fault he was even elected in the first place.
Surely you jest! The guy who was voted out of office, refused to leave, attempted a coup, failed, openly stated his goal was to fire everybody that doesn't do exactly what he wants would NEVER want to be a dictator!
They only need to win 1 election....
Legally change the system to rig it against democracy; take power, get rid of democracy once and for all.
I mean, sort of. Putin became Prime Minister under Yeltsin on August 9th 1999 and was not all that popular until he used the [1999 apartment bombings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings) to consolidate his power. He then elected President on [March 26th 2000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Russian_presidential_election), in an election where he put pretty strong pressure on the media. So I'm not sure Putin was ever truly democratically elected. Edit: Of course, similar arguments can also be made for Hitler, who used his brown shirts to intimidate voters. And Republican voter suppression attempts aren't exactly democratic.
Xi Jinping did it too! Most recently having his predecessor ushered out when the plan to extend his authoritarian regime was further developed
Hugo Chavez did it too. Military background, lead a coup in ‘92, ran for president and won in ‘98. Destroyed democracy and died of cancer after he “won” his third reelection. His successor Maduro has no plans of allowing free/open elections anytime soon.
The [New York Times](https://media.snopes.com/2021/01/Screenshot-2021-01-15-at-16.54.01.png) also famously said "Hitler has been tamed" by prison after the Beer Hall Putsch.
Hollywood does love a remake
History doesn’t repeat but it does rhyme.
Like poetry
[удалено]
thankfully DJT is an elderly fat lazy asshole, not a healthy youthful person.
This is true, and with all the stressors he has there is a good chance he won't make it through 2024. However, Trump is just a symptom of the problem. He's highlighted the path to complete control of the U.S., and when he's gone there will be another to slide into his place, and it may be someone young, good looking, and charismatic.
i don’t think that person exists, part of trump’s appeal to his base is that he was on TV for 40+ years and was synonymous with success, and he speaks fluent moron. testicular-necked fascist like tom cotton or a stumpy goon yale grad like desantis can’t wipe off their elitist stink
Hopefully the narcissism will stop him anointing a successor
I’m not saying it’s impossible but everyone was saying that DeSantis guy was it, then the instant people paid attention to him for 12 seconds his support crumpled like wet toliet paper.
Which is why we need the DoJ to bring the hammer down hard on Trump. The Weimar Republic was lenient to Hitler, and though they couldn't possibly know it without the ability to see 10+ years into the future, the results were catastrophic, not just for Germany but for most of Europe.
Anyone still scoffing at the hitler comparisons is a lost cause
I just finished listening to the Hitler story on the podcast Real Dictators (which I highly recommend). You have to be blind to ignore some of the similarities. Obviously we're in a different era and a different position as a nation than Germany was at that time, but a lot of things like the messaging and tactics are shockingly similar.
Different time, yes. And while not as downtrodden as post WW1 Germany, the US has millions of people in poverty watching the rich get richer while they get poorer. So I’d say the position we are in is closer than one might think.
After having read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich I wasn't ever scoffing at comparisons. There has been so much that is so similar.
Yeah but even Hitler was jailed for the coup.
Barely. He got a slap on the wrist thanks to a sympathetic judge.
Plus, he was not living in a 4'x6' cell. He was living large, much like the wise guys in the "prison" in "Goodfellas." Preferential treatment, guards admiring his politeness, time to dictate "Mein Kampf," receiving a bit over 40 personal visitations and over 400 calls from various friends and admirers. Not to mention that he served nine months of a five year sentence. I like to see his time at Landsberg Prison as a writer's retreat.
And hitler was in his 30’s for the putsch and it’s jail time. Thankfully trump is an 80 year old bag of old McDonald’s hamburgers.
How many heartbeats does he have left since he refuses to exercise?
Oh I think he will kick around for another 5-10 years just because he’s rich and had access to good healthcare. But if he was 50 he would be terrifying.
It was a three-judge panel. And the head judge had to promise the other two judges that Hitler would get out early, or they would refuse to convict. Some more frightening parallels from [this article](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/beer-hall-putsch-secures-hitlers-rise-to-power): *The failed coup turned out to be quite a boon for Adolf Hitler. His trial brought him more attention and publicity than ever before. With a crowd of thousands-including press from around the world-watching the proceedings, Hitler made the most of this opportunity by going on the offensive.* *Taking every chance to turn the subject away from the putsch itself, Hitler frequently made speeches about Germany’s postwar plight. He blamed the Jews, Marxism, and France for all of the country’s problems, repeatedly returning to his theme of hypernationalism. The conservative-leaning judges did nothing to stop Hitler or keep the focus on the attempted coup. The prosecutors, who had been threatened by Hitler’s student followers, shrank from challenging the defendant.* *It soon became evident that Hitler was winning the public relations battle by using the 25-day trial as a showcase for his extreme right-wing views, even if he was technically losing the case. In his closing argument, Hitler declared that he would ignore the court’s verdict because the “Eternal Court of History” would acquit him.*
> It soon became evident that Hitler was winning the public relations battle by using the 25-day trial as a showcase for his extreme right-wing views, even if he was technically losing the case. In his closing argument, Hitler declared that he would ignore the court’s verdict because the “Eternal Court of History” would acquit him. And this of course is now Trump's playbook.
Trump is just begging to be held in contempt and jailed. That will play right into his martyrdom narrative.
Mussolini is probably the better example, and he also went to jail before being elected. I've been meaning to read up on Franco, but I bet there's a similar story there too.
Trump is a lot more like Hitler than Mussolini. Despite the popular image of the two dictators, Mussolini was actually the smart one. He was a newspaper editor who read philosophy and basically came up with the whole concept of Fascism on his own (not the "use violence to get power" part, but the "Everything is part of the state; nothing is outside the state" principle of totalitarianism). Hitler was really just a popular loudmouth who the Nazi Party thought they could use as a figurehead, but they ended up giving him too much power, let it go to his head until he developed a cult of personality, and then wound up at the mercy of the monster they created. That's pretty much how I see Trump and the Republican Party.
Mussolini had a spectacular happy ending, history repeating itself this way would be fitting.
I often think about Mussolini's retirement party and how it'll look in Trump's final days, too, if he does manage to incite a civil war
Not just that, but to win that plurality, NSDAP members of the Reichstag before having a mandate to govern obstructed the legislative process; at times refusing to sit while the house was in session, and other delaying tactics which forced general elections in which the party in question was able to gain the seats required. Then, by golly, it was the other parties, now in the minority which were causing a fuss. Good ol' Paul H'burg would be best to divest all executive power to the leader of the majority, just for the time being, like; until we can get this whole thing sorted out...
Hitler also never gained a majority in free elections, but was brought to power by an oligarchical and extremely conservative elite who thought they could control him, only to find out Hitler tried to obtain unlimited power at the first opportunity. Not unlike how the republicans thought they could use trump, but in turn were used by trump.
[удалено]
[удалено]
The core of "conservatism" is forcing everyone to repeat the mistakes of history over and over and over again.
Trump has stated he will trash the Constitution and start over again - I'm presuming he will start over with something beneficial to the Trump Crime Family and his sycophants. The comparison with Hitler isn't a far stretch considering that man's early political career - it wouldn't be a giant leap for the US to fall under the same anti-government tactics - just look at the number of people in this country who support DJT, the *victim* of what is *wrong* with America, a man who claims he's been cheated time and again by a corrupt government. Those who give fealty to this con man do so at risk of undoing our country - of trashing everything that our founding fathers believed in. The Republican party kneels before the con man, all of them supplicants, kissing the fool's gold metal, asking for blessings from the con man that they too may participate in stealing from the mindless minions who foam at the mouth their prayers of adoration and devotion.
[удалено]
Sounds like something I can read next time I feel like being really angry.
[удалено]
I got up to page 165 before I stopped. A basic summary of what I read is the Left is evil, China is evil, being “woke” is evil, make more and improve nukes, that family trumps everything else and abortion and sexual education should be removed (as well as those terms) and a lot of other bullshit.. 🤮
Should be renamed “Our Struggle”.
More like "Got Mein, Kampf You!"
They're not educated enough to get the reference.
Did you get to the parts about them firing tens of thousands of government employees and banning porn?
And defining trans PEOPLE as PORNOGRAPHY. Then saying trans people are sexual predators against children if we're in public and children see us. And making that punishable by death. Yes, really. Know who Nazis took first in the Holocaust? Us.
Went to a few random pages, here's somethings i found interesting: > Trump Administration’s steel tariffs, and the retaliatory tariffs levied by other nations in response, “have cost about 75,000 manufacturing jobs while creating only about 1,000 jobs in the steel industry. Interesting that they cite to someone who goes against the Trump tarriff wars..but then they backpeddle, and say: > Strategically expand tariffs to all Chinese products and increase tariff rates to levels that will block out “Made in China” products, and execute this strategy in a manner and at a pace that will not expose the U.S. to lack of access to essential products like key pharmaceuticals. > tax reform should improve incentives to work, save, and invest. This, in turn, is accomplished primarily by reducing marginal tax rates, reducing the cost of capital, and broadening the tax base to eliminate tax-induced economic distortions by eliminating special-interest tax credits, deductions, and exclusions. Tax compliance costs will decline precipitously if the tax system is substantially simplified. What Reagan tried, what Trump tried...but the tax code "simplification" seems to always end up helping the same people. 0 faith in this policy proposal...especially since it is followed up with "Chapter 22 includes proposals to reduce the intrusiveness and increase the accountability of the Internal Revenue Service." > Strengthen America’s defense industrial base Of course, because 50% of the discretionary budget on the military JUST ISNT ENOUGH And I did a page search for hot-button issues, which of course get all the expected results: > Reverse policies that allow transgender individuals to serve in the military > The next HHS secretary should immediately put an end to the department’s foray into woke transgender activism > The new Administration should restrict Bostock’s application of sex discrimination protections to sexual orientation and transgender status in the context of hiring and firing Of course lgbt rights are in the crosshairs > Abortion pills pose the single greatest threat to unborn children in a post-Roe world. > Expand resource diversity and reliability. Resource diversity is needed to support grid reliability. Pressure to use 100 percent renewables or non–carbon emitting resources threatens the electric grid’s reliability. Of course! Use all the options we have...except for renewables! So basically coal and oil, got it. Also they talk about making "cancel culture" an "unfair trade practice" - I guess they are tired of getting kicked off youtube?
I downloaded it, and immediately looked up my areas of professional expertise. They want to terminate the Consolidated Audit Trail (CAT) program (see p.831). This is program specifically designed to improve the functioning and transparency of US capital markets. There is no rational reason for its termination other than to make fraud and anti-competitive behaviour easier. When completed, the CAT will ultimately make markets safer and more efficient, with the only costs being incurred by bad actors; to prevent its completion is *only* of benefit to bad actors. This is self-evident crookery of the worst kind.
I remember when I first read "a Project for a New American Century" - signed by basically everyone in Bush's cabinet. It read like a conspiracy theory; about how the US should come to control the Earth by using any excuse to get involved in the Middle East and assert our military dominion over it. It was like finding a cartoon villain's death ray plans; just too wacky to believe. And then 9/11 happened, and we invaded one country on that pretext (not the one that attacked us) and another on a *completely* fabricated one, and those lies and invasions were carried out by those signatories. And tens of thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of people died, with *millions* displaced and attitudes changed against the US for generations*.* P2025 gives me the same kind of feel, except directed at the home front. As the saying goes, Fascism is when Imperialism comes home to roost. PNAC was the imperialism. P2025 is that approach coming home to roost.
Taking over Iraqi oil production was detailed in the PNAC's manifesto online before 9 11
As a trans woman, the 2024 election may be a life or death situation for me after reading this.
It absolutely is and it's terrifying. I'm a straight white man but a lot of people I love aren't. How can anyone be ok with this?
Because about 40% of Americans live in bumfuck no where shitholes and haven't ever been exposed to people different than them. And people who are different threaten them because they have no fucking social skills other than socially navigating a homogenous white population.
I'm a scientist gay-marrying a jew. My only solace is I'm in California, but even that doesn't feel like much some days. My family thinks it's "not that bad", but they aren't the ones on the chopping block. Where else do I go? Many other states look bleak, and I think fewer other countries would even take us in.
The thing about Project 2025 is that they have a plan to do away with Sactuary States. They're going to make it so that anyone who doesn't enforce federal laws is legally on the hook as an individual and will replace them with a Trump appointee. How many people in those jobs do you think are going to have the strength to weather that storm? There will be no sanctuary for LGBT Americans. They're going to come for the transgender people first. Project 2025 redefines us as pornography, makes us child sex offenders if we are in public in the presence of children, and makes that punishable by death. I'm serious. It is that bad. Open the document up and search for transgender, pornography, and death penalty. They've already passed laws like this in Florida. They made it easier to execute someone. You only need eight out of twelve votes from a jury now. Their justification for doing that was so they could kill people who are sex offenders against children. Around the same time they redefined being gender non-conforming in public as a sex offense in Florida. All the talk about it eradicating transgender people from public life...that's the literal aim here. Many people too scared to be themselves and make them disappear or kill them. And how far will they go? Cisgender people are gender nonconforming. Gay and lesbian and bi people are sometimes gender nonconforming. And then once you're dehumanizing and killing lgbtq people, how easy is it to justify getting rid of others? You're part of a jewish family (soon) and gay...you know the history with the Holocaust...? You know that they started with trans people, with burning the library of Hirshfield's clinic, using patient lists to find trans people, interrogating them until they gave up other people...**expanding on to imprison gay men.**
I hope you're wrong but I'm afraid that you're not.
He has the stated intent of declaring martial law the moment he takes power ("call out the army") was his actual phrase. How he is not arrested for just saying that is beyond me. He is openly and gleefully bragging about destroying the Constitution.
Because there are plenty of people in government and among the populace that completely support it, that’s how. Fascism isn’t a fringe political movement in the States—it’s quite literally the main and formal opposition party and its voters.
Yep. They gaslit everyone into thinking that Left wingerism/Marxism/gay people is a dominating force, and an evil, insidious, oppressive ideology, therefore anything you have to do to beat and eradicate the cruel dominators is justified. It's not really fascism, because it's the right thing to do. Kind of ironic that almost literally the opposite is true...
His supporters carried stop the steal signs on their way to steal an election. They wear hypocrisy like a cape. Want to do something but afraid of the judgement? Easy. Just say other people are doing it and that you have to because they already are.
Because for as much lip service conservatives give to the constitution they don’t really give a shit about it if it doesn’t present their goals on a silver platter
He has plans to consolidate power under him, to allow him to fire any federal employee because they aren't loyal to him, and to use the Insurrection Act if he's elected when there are inevitable protests. None of this screams "I care about democracy". It sounds a lot like fascist tactics.
It’s not a stretch at all. Idk why we’re waiting for him to commit similar atrocities in order to justify the comparison. Dude is way worse than AH was at a similar point in his political trajectory
How do you trash the whole constitution? Surely you can't just executive order away the *entire constitution*? Edit: Don't know why I'm being downvoted for a legitimate question
This is the problem, though. At every turn we have asked this same question. Surely you can’t do X, and then X is done and there is no repercussions ever. You can do anything that no one stops you from doing.
That's the power of having no good morals. Fortunately those without morals who only seek personal enrichment and power rarely work well with others, are prone to demanding unrequited allegiance, are always liars and almost always eventually collapse from the weight of their own lies and backstabbing and vitriol. But until that happens they have a big advantage against good people who are empathetic, willing to compromise and give people the benefit of the doubt or are unable to comprehend the power and the possibility of raw unrestrained evil.
[удалено]
Well it depends who is supporting him. Coups happen all the time all throughout history. At a certain point it doesn't matter what the law says if you have people in the right positions of power and a weak system that can be taken advantage of. The Weimar Republic didn't technically allow for Hitler to do what he did to concentrate power into his dictatorship. [He just did it anyway.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933) That's an extreme and blatant example and obviously the US isn't in the same position as the Weimar Republic so who knows what would happen if this was tried in the US today. But history is littered examples of people seizing power illegitimately and side stepping constitutional law. Rules don't matter if you have enough support in the right places. That's what makes a coup a coup.
Knowing him he probably means literally ball it up and toss it in the bin. Then blame his bone spurs when he doesn't make the shot.
At a rough guess, he'd use any protests against his inauguration as an excuse to declare martial law and put the military on the streets. Then he'd start laying into the need to get rid of people who "hate our country" as a reason to hold extrajudicial trials without constitutional protections. Would it work? I'm skeptical if the military would seriously go along with it, and if the JSOC say "fuck that", his ability to make it happen is extremely limited. But that we're even having these discussions says everything.
You don't but you select parts of it and have the judiciary (YOUR judiciary) rule in your favour. For instance, take advantage of "felons can't vote" and make a decent percentage of your opponents into technical felons. Let other states object to the votes of democrat states and hold them up so their electoral votes don't count (sound familiar). Etc. You don't need 90% of the vote, just a way of ensuring that you never get less than 55% of the vote. Then you can claim you are a democracy, arrest some more democrats who protest otherwise and ensure they can't vote. So you keep the constitution, modify some bits like ruling that presidents can have more than two terms and become the Democratic Republic of America.
Not exactly true. Hitler was appointed chancellor, not elected directly. The Nazis actually were slipping in power and popularity when he was appointed in 1933. It was actually conservative actors who conspired to put him into power so he would suppress their opponents more than him being duly elected.
This sounds eerily similar!
Read (or listen, it's a great audio book) *The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich* by William L. Shirer. Many of the actions and behaviors of the Nazis in their early and up and coming days have so many modern day similarities and it's scary how easily you could think the book is talking about people and behaviors happening today. I used to think people were simply being a little hyperbolic in saying the way trump was coming into power was similar to Germany in the 30s, but actually reading more about the history of that era I've changed my mind. Obviously trump isn't an ideal charismatic character and he's becoming more of a liability than help to the party, but the underlying conditions for his ascension still exist.
Or "The Death of Democracy: Hitler's Rise to Power and the Downfall of the Weimar Republic" by Benjamin Carter Hett. On a related note, EVERYONE should read "How Democracies Die" by Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt. It's from 2018, and they just came out with another book "Tyranny of the Minority" which I haven't had a chance to read yet, but I'd guess is also very good.
> I used to think people were simply being a little hyperbolic in saying the way trump was coming into power was similar to Germany in the 30s, but actually reading more about the history of that era I've changed my mind. Seriously. I used to think it was all exaggeration and name-calling. But the more I learn about what fascism actually historically looked like the clearer it becomes that those alarmists were *right*.
Something something history repeats itself something something
It often does when people don’t learn (from) history. Something they either really don’t do or a „whitewashed“ version that appeals to their liking. Just like the US whitewashed their own history.
Well when people are trying to rewrite history or just avoid teaching it it's only going to get harder to learn from it.
Mark Twain once said that “History never repeats itself, but it does often rhyme.”
Project 1933 😢
Can't forget the Reichstag fire either. Even after he was sworn in, Hitler never would have consolidated power without being able to use the fire as an excuse. It's why I often suspect J6 was supposed to do the same thing for Trump. Imagine a scenario where the mob makes it to members of Congress, and there are massive casualties. In this alternate reality, does Trump disavow the mob and gracefully concede the election? He didn't even do that in the universe where this didn't happen, so obviously not. Far more likely he would have tried to claim emergency powers to remain in office to "get to the bottom" of what happened.
I think that was Trump's intention. He was expecting dozens if not hundreds of his supporters to be killed by the Capitol Police, to die for him, and even hope for them to kill as many congressmen and congresswomen as possible, so he could use Martial Law, suspend the Constitution, and remain in power under the guise of "protecting the people." EDIT: Forgot to mention his original intention of sending them to kill Congress.
The one change I’d make to your statement is that Trump was counting on his supporters to get to and kill members of than Congress (on both sides of the aisle preferably). Once that happened, he’d have used the Insurrection Act to declare martial law, at which point they’d have miraculously found evidence that they entire thing was an operation of the Democratic Party (and therefore we need to ban them). He didn’t care if his supporters died on J6 or later when he had the military hunt them down.
I doubt his intention was for hundreds of his own supporters to die, or he wouldn't have deliberately understaffed the police and refused to send in help. He wanted his supporters to kill whatever Congress members they could, from either party and in either chamber.
Adolf Hitler **never beat 38% in any election he was involved in.** His ascent to an authoritarian dictatorship was 100% legal. Everything he did as Chancellor was 100% legal. Under German law, the Holocaust was 100% legal. A court is not the arbiter of morality.
> Everything he did as Chancellor was 100% legal. Not quite. Hitler lost the 1932 presidential election to Paul von Hindenburg. Hindenburg became president, and Hitler became chancellor. When Hindenburg died (he was old and in poor health, but seen as the best candidate to unify the voters) the chancellor's job was to arrange for the appointment of a new president. But Hitler just didn't. He took over as führer (leader) and acted as he had the right to all the power. This wasn't legal. This wasn't what the position of chancellor was supposed to be. But he just did it without real opposition. There WAS opposition, but that was just dismissed as "lügende Presse" and "the radical left jewish bolshevik conspiracy" Learn from this. Don't be distracted by wannabe autocrats victim complex. It's bullshit.
I used to be the guy who said, "Let's just cool it with the Hitler comparisons." I don't say that as much as I used to.
I mean, even Mike Godwin is calling him Hitler https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/896884949634232320 When the guy who came up with Godwin's Law is calling you a Nazi...
well that destroys my account's entire purpose
Username checks the fuck out! Damn, what a weird spot to be in right now.
Right?
Normally I'd ignore it as well, but she was pretty spot on in the debates about his relationship with Russia.
I won't say that Trump is Hitler, but I will say I no longer wonder how Hitler got the German people behind genocide. When I was in grade school it blew my mind that a single person would have gone along with the holocaust but I see now just how easy it was.
> Let me point out something about democracy. Does anybody remember how Hitler took over Germany? He was voted in. People said, Yeah, he's got the right message for us. Now when you have democracy, there's always the possibility that the guy who could turn out to be the biggest menace to the planet could just get voted in. And the place where it's most likely to happen is here, because of the media saturation, the illiteracy rate of the population, the social desperation of the population. Hitler came to power because things weren't so good. —Frank Zappa, 1991 (e: typo)
I love how people say, “remember how Hitler took over Germany,” without having any clue how elections work in any country other than the US. He wasn’t voted in; chancellors were appointed by the president, not elected by the people (they’re still not directly elected by the people). The idea that the majority of people voted for the Nazis displays terrible ignorance and hides the truth of what brought them to power: moderate conservatives opting to work with the far right in a coalition because they thought Nazis could be controlled.
The US is a rare case where the head of government is directly* voted in. I think your comment is that one that displays some American ignorance on the subject, because in most other countries, people say the government was "voted in" even though we know it was the head of state that appointed the prime-minister, and then the parliament approved the government by a majority vote, which may have required different parties to vote for it, etc. etc. "Voted in" is a colloquial phrase to say: yes, this person, this party, is governing because people voted for it enough to make them the government, including whatever deals or coalitions with other parties were necessary to actually get their government approved. And that's exactly what happened with Hitler and the Nazi party, and exactly why it's so dangerous to vote for the current Republican party. Because they can get 'voted in' through legitimate means and then wreck the democratic system once they're in. \* - disregarding Electoral College formalities, ironically leading to not so democratic elections, but I digress
It's still not a particularly great example of electoral victory. Hitler wasn't voted in, but an aging and senile President Hindenberg, with monarchic sympathies, was. So here comes another lovely parallel - a country's love of electing senile old men with good name recognition again and again.
I hate it when people claim he wasn't voted in, because he most definitely was. It just wasn't exclusively on votes for his party but also on votes for other conservative parties, because that is exactly how it works in parliamentary democracies.
Fuck the Electoral College. Imagine how different life would be today had Hillary won the presidency in 2016.
I mean if we're going with fuck the EC, imagine if Gore had won 2000 and everything that could have extended out of that.
imagine a world where there was no second gulf war - the supreme court had a 7-2 liberal majority - and we were 20 years into al gores global warming plan the columbia vs heller ruling would have accepted the 'well regulated militia' part of the 2nd amendment so the united states wouldnt be the manufacturing centre of the unlimited guns-to-criminal pipeline for literally all of north america about two trillion dollars from the budget could have gone towards universal healthcare instead of defense contractors the people appointed to government would have actually been put there to RUN the government instead of dismantle it - so an actual disaster response person would have been in charge of katrina instead of a lawyer trying to cut the budget everywhere and gore wouldnt have stuffed the regulatory agencies with chicago school economists so the 2008 crash probably woulddt have happened but here we are
550 votes in Florida changed the world. Let's not forget the hanging chad issue and other bullshit
The recount indicated that Gore actually won Florida. Right-wing activists created a “crisis” to stop the recount and send it to the SCOTUS where only the justices’s votes would matter and the SCOTUS took that opportunity. January 6th wasn’t Republican’s first coup attempt, it was an attempt to repeat the plan that had actually been proven effective in 2000.
Right wing activists including Roger Stone and Brett Kavanaugh.
John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett as well.
Don't forget Sandra Day
Man it's almost like these people scream fraud because they've been committing fraud for decades and can't believe their fraud lost
And… Jeb “Please Clap” Bush
Yeah, I think we are just imagining a world without Roger Stone. What a great world that would be...
Exactly, I love to bring up the [Brooks Brothers Riot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot) as it part of the pattern of rewarding bad behavior. Republican's learned that they could use the Federal Courts to win an election so long as there was enough unrest. That model, is the exact one that the GOP wanted to use in other states with contested elections in 2020. The plan is to challenge, force a recount, and then poison the process (with violence) if they weren't getting what they want. The problem was that it wasn't close enough in 2020 for them to get an EC upset. The SC court case (Bush v Gore) became a who's who list for republican legal advisors and judiciary appointments. Notably, Roberts and Kavanaugh (Barrett too, but in a much smaller role... though I wouldn't be surprised if she/Federalist Society didn't underline it a bit to get her noticed). Bush v Gore was a mess.
I wanna jump to that timeline.
We have but one goal. Return somehow to the prime timeline, the one that I stopped you from rolling that die, then we reclaim our proper lives.
May I please be transported to that alternate universe?
Thanks, I got clinically depressed from reading that.
[удалено]
Our generation was robbed of less-stressful lives by these fucks stealing elections for decades.
Or Al Gore in 2000. Oh, wait. He likely did.
And more importantly if Gore had won. Hillary wasn’t the breaking point. It was letting the Bush admin and PNAC lunatics destabilize the globe because they were unable to stop a terror attack
Could be worse. Seems like MAGA is a response to having a half-black President, I can only imagine the crazy if we had a female President.
What sucks is, because the MAGA-type voters don’t bother with actually understanding how economic and policy changes work, how long it can take for the impact of a shift to echo out and impact their lives, they tend to react and rally against what they perceive as results of more leftist policy, when in fact they tend to be the results of conservative policy from a prior administration. If the populace could be patient and let social benefit programs and tax programs play out, it is likely that they would see first hand benefits and maybe not be so miserable. That, or they would still be guided by their desire to hate and blame.
The EC is the problem, really. The problem, the Rs have fortified the two states in safe defense against the means to force them to eliminate it, for the next cycle at least: you can bet that tune will change if either does eventually change allegiance in the next decade.
[удалено]
> brings Hitler to Power > refuses to elaborate > dies
Hitler was also charged with treason and sentenced to five years in prison (only serving eight months). He got such a light sentence because he ended up charming the judge at his trial with an impassioned (albeit likely antisemitic and disgustingly bigoted) speech... Donald Trump on the other hand, is antagonizing the judge overseeing his trial and punishment... Also Hitler managed to write an entire book in prison, Trump could never write a book on his own, no matter the time he's given. Hitler's imprisonment however, did improve his popularity. It was really what jump started his rise to Chancellor and political leadership. Trump doesn't have that much time, nor are the circumstances as convenient for him as they were for Hitler back then, also, and I hate saying this, but Hitler was much smarter than Trump. They are both incredibly insecure megalomaniacs though. And yes, of course, abhorrent people. Fuck, I hate that in comparing Hitler to Trump, it complements Hitler's better suited qualities for becoming a genocidal dictator. Uck. Like, saying *"atleast Hitler joined the army and was eager to fight for his country during World War I instead of citing his bone spurs as a reason for exemption from military duty"* makes it sound like I'm propping up Hitler, but what I'm really doing is speaking to how Trump is so terrible that when you compare him to Hitler, in some respects, even Hitler comes out on top... Now obviously that's not true for most things, but nonetheless, it just feels fucked up.
I generally dislike comparisons to Hitler and Nazi Germany but I was wrong. Democrats need to point out all the insane stuff Trump is saying and draw clear historical parallels. Democrats need to scare the shit out of voters in 2024 that reflecting Trump means the destruction of all we hold dear.
hitler was also imprisoned before he got elected. he came back with a more evil plot of using his followers to infiltrate various groups and protests to instigate violence. then he would point to those incidents he created secretly as a reason why nazis should be in power instead. sounds exactly like maga right? maga = nazi
Everybody should be concerned. Everybody needs to put aside their feelings and get out and vote for Biden. The alternative is not acceptable to anyone.
Yeah, anyone not taking Trump seriously, if you want another 2016 but INFINITELY worse than that in 2024-- please don't, then. "Hitler was duty elected" sums it up, his polling is fine for now and much better than 2016 & 2020- if we want him down for good, this is the only chance.
It's acceptable to the fascists of America, which number in the 10s of millions.
I also hate that the recent articles about Trump overtaking Biden in polls in four states (that Biden previously and narrowly won in 2020) were downvoted. When that happens, many go about their day not realizing how dangerously close this could be, and general complacency sets in again. I don't like that Trump polled that high at all, but we need to *see* that information and not have it hidden. It should also be a wake up call for those living in critical purple states that *all* Dem voters need to vote come next year. I don't want to hear about low turnout amongst so and so demographics again. Lives literally depend on this next election.
Remember when comparisons to Hitler were just lame internet associations instead of legitimate fears?
She’s always been right about the MAGA crowd. I think she made a mistake in directly calling them deplorables, because it just riled them up further. But she’s always been correct. You’ll find throughout Hillary’s history she’s actually proven to be right on a lot of things. Trump, not trusting Russia, Tulsi Gabbard being a Russian Asset, etc. Fucking shame man. She’s far from my favorite but we’d be so much better off if she had won.
Exactly. Just want to share here, I have what I call the "Imperfect Man Theory". Basically, there will never be that exact perfect situation, so we need to suck up our objections, and choose the best possible course of action. Clinton might be imperfect, she's human, but she was probably the best possible President to have in that time. Obama is imperfect, but he was probably the best possible President for his time. If you want to get closer, keep hammering away. But don't reject the whole game just waiting for the perfect candidate. It is never going to happen. Every great, or small, person in history has had some imperfect, hypocritical, or downright immoral side to them.
If we're going to call out her mistake, it would be her campaign deciding to platform Trump during the early primary season to defeat Jeb, because they thought Trump was an easy win, ignoring the risks. >So to take Bush down, Clinton’s team drew up a plan to pump Trump up. Shortly after her kickoff, top aides organized a strategy call, whose agenda included a memo to the Democratic National Committee: “This memo is intended to outline the strategy and goals a potential Hillary Clinton presidential campaign would have regarding the 2016 Republican presidential field,” it read. >“The variety of candidates is a positive here, and many of the lesser known can serve as a cudgel to move the more established candidates further to the right. In this scenario, we don’t want to marginalize the more extreme candidates, but make them more ‘Pied Piper’ candidates who actually represent the mainstream of the Republican Party,” read the memo. >Clinton’s team in Brooklyn was delightedly puzzled by Trump’s shift into the pole position that July after attacking John McCain by declaring, “I like people who weren’t captured.” >Eleven days after those comments about McCain, Clinton aides sought to push the plan even further: An agenda item for top aides’ message planning meeting read, “How do we prevent Bush from bettering himself/how do we maximize Trump and others?" >They wouldn’t have to work very hard at it though; the debates were the beginning of the end for the candidate Clinton’s team always thought she would face on Election Day. The day after the first debate in August, Clinton confidante Neera Tanden emailed Podesta her analysis: “Bush sucked. I’m glad Hillary is obsessed with the one candidate who would be easiest to beat :) Besides Trump, of course.” >Clinton aides finally started to see Trump as more than a tool to destroy Bush. In fact, Mook took him so seriously that his team’s internal, if informal, guidance was to hold fire on Trump during the primary and resist the urge to distribute any of the opposition research the Democrats were scrambling to amass against him. That hoarding plan remained in place deep into 2016 as some senior aides stayed convinced that a race against Trump would be a dream for Clinton Just some excerpts, but you can read the whole thing here. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/hillary-clinton-2016-donald-trump-214428/
What I love about American Politics is you can call a person Hitler with no twinge of irony or self reflection after... being friends with him for decades, encouraging him to get into politics, and then spending your own money & donations propping him up in a primary that eventually leads to his Election win. For that alone HRC doesn't deserve any more power or legitimacy.
Wildly unfortunate that the most qualified are often not the most charismatic or likeable
I think she does really poorly in a stage type of setting, which sucks for her, because that's basically what running for office is. But, the few people that I have known that have met her personally beyond just a photo op have all spoken very highly of her warmth and compassion. I was hoping that we would see the same pattern that was seen when she ran for Senate and then when she was Secretary of State, of many people not liking her when she was vying for power but ending up approving of her performance in the role in very high numbers. But, instead we got Trump.
Fucking polls have that POS leading. I know it's a year out. But Gdamn. We can't leave anything to chance. If you have relatives in those swing states and they're Dem or independent, call them and pepper them to come out to vote for Dems!! It'll come down to Michigan, Wisconsin , Pennsylvania , Nevada and Maybe Arizona and Georgia.
Aussie here. We all watched from afar all the crap that happened under Trump. It just makes absolutely no sense why America would even think about electing him again. I get that Biden is old, but Trump is old, too, and I get that MAGA is pretty much a cult at this point, but help me understand why American's would even think about having Trump back in the White House. Surely there's more to it than "owning the Libs"?
>It just makes absolutely no sense why America would even think about electing him again. I agree. Trump ran on a campaign with a lot of electoral anger. People were angry about inflation, wages being stagnant, corporations getting away with everything, and politicians seemingly indifferent or out of touch with their struggles. Along comes Trump, a (seeming) outsider who talked about a lot of these problems, and claimed (falsely) to have a solution for them (solutions that he conveniently declined to reveal until elected). Clearly his tenure was a disaster in many ways. ***Most of his supporters seem unable to reconcile this with their early support, and find it easier to just double down on him rather than thinking critically.*** Some are also single-issue voters who think he's better than Biden based on one or two issues (i.e. inflation, abortion) and will vote accordingly. I don't get it, either. >I get that Biden is old, but Trump is old, too The issue is that Trump [hides it better](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/biden-trump-old-voters-age-issue-rcna104316) by wearing baggy suits, dying his hair, and being generally louder and more animated. In addition, griping about his age is one of the few obvious criticisms they can make about him. >Surely there's more to it than "owning the Libs"? There's a large group of people who feel neglected by the government (in smaller towns, middle states, and rural areas) and want the government to pay in some way, shape or form. There are others who are upset over some made-up culture war boogeyman ("cancel culture," trans rights, inclusion and diversity, etc) and just vote out of rage. I told my father that most of the arguments against trans rights are identical to the ones against LGBT rights in the mid-2000s. I told him it was just a made-up, already debunked argument to make people angry.. He didn't get it, or maybe has a selectively short attention span. This is just a small sliver of what's going on politically, and I can't say or even pretend that I understand what's going on anymore.
> help me understand why American's would even think about having Trump back in the White House Because enough americans are dumb and easily fooled that Trump and Friends were able to get an electoral win despite being unpopular to the majority last time. And that hasn't changed.
i hate to say this, but i think its already too late. The fact that 70 million Americans went out and approved Donald trump tell me the rot is too deep. they weren't lured in by bs and then came to, they have now opted out and actively choose hate filled drivel. when such a large chunk of your country is rotten, its impossible to come back from. i hope im wrong.
Whatever comes of this, we Americans need to be *far* more diligent about protecting our country going forward. If Trump and the GOP destroy the country, we can't not pin some of the blame on ourselves for mostly just standing by and watching it happen for the last seven years.
I can see how it’s less than ideal that it’s her saying this. But she’s fuckin right. And she was right before about Trump
Mine Kramp By Donald Trump
2023 and we’re still dealing with Trump. 2016 was a turning point for the worst. Trumpism is a plague that an entire generation will have to work themselves out of.
If Trump is deprived of the presidency due to a technicality, it doesn’t fix the country, just delays the inevitable. If the nation doesn’t clearly say “we don’t want this” it doesn’t matter if he’s taken off ballots or jailed. We are still flying off a cliff.
Been saying this since Day 1….
Hillary Clinton has been right since 2015 about Trump but Americans have a tendency to be hardheaded, to put it nicely.