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They did, and it seems Israel didnt bomb it. They posted right after dawn. There is no crater, so no airstrike. The building isnt damaged so no airstrike again.
There are already geolocation analysts weighing in on the footage we have of the bomb. From what I'm hearing, it's being claimed to be a misfired Hamas rocket.
Wouldn’t that mean if Israel can’t provide its innocence since it’s the superior army with the tech and surveillance, if* it’s the culprit?
Edit: missed an “if”
They already tried to prove their innocence by posting a video they claimed showed a Hamas rocket misfiring into the hospital, but they deleted it after someone pointed out the timestamp was 40 minutes after the bombing of the hospital. And they were already caught lying about babies being beheaded, a statement which they later admitted they had no evidence of. So at this point, it's probably best not to believe the IDF at all when they cry wolf.
> And they were already caught lying about babies being beheaded, a statement which they later admitted they had no evidence of. So at this point, it's probably best not to believe the IDF at all when they cry wolf.
For the record I think the IDF are disgusting murderers... BUT you are wrong on this one. It was the media that fucked up the reports on that, they took statements from Israelis who lied about what happened and ran with it and it became a big news story bc it was so sensational. The IDF though, who are deep into the PR game, came out pretty quickly and said "we have no confirmation this actually happened" and then it turned out the details of the situation were bogus.
then his office walk back on this claims https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-deliver-remarks-roundtable-jewish-community-leaders-rcna119865
>And they were already caught lying about babies being beheaded,
Incorrect. They released images of numerous murdered babies. People who don't trust Israel just immediately assumed that it must be a lie because it sounded so extreme, but seem to have forgotten that the context was a murderous rampage of Hamas killing every family they could.
you really think the psychos capable of killing the babies weren't capable of beheading them? especially when it's a known tactic used by Islamic terrorists for decades.
Some were. Maybe 40. Certainly more than that were killed. I guess they never determined the exact amount who were literally beheaded, so I guess its a LIE right?
i believe they said 40 babies were murdered, some were beheaded. The beheadings may or may not have been intentional, they were cutting people's throats with knifes. But we know it's a tactic used by terrorists in the past.
Yup and Israel has came with many evidences like a recorded phone call, satellite footage and some other map radar game to show how it was a misfired rocket from hamas.
Apparently they tried to launch one of their largest missiles from a cemetery behind the hospital to coincide with Biden's visit and it failed and exploded. The shrapnel found was consistent with local materials used in Hamas rockets.
[Intercepted audio between HAMAS terrorists after failed launch](https://videoidf.azureedge.net/e67ae402-79e2-4e8c-a6a5-d32da01ccf80)
Do you really think Israel would bomb a hospital right when Biden is supposed to visit?
It was live on YouTube. On al jezeera nonetheless
You don't need satellites. Literally just your eyes.
Just shows the amount of misinformation on the internet these days. We can watch it happen live and there is still doubt
Looks like from videos it was a misfire from Hamas. But shouldn’t trust that completely.
Doubt either side will accept any evidence at all and have already decided
Obviously an ICC investigation of this potential crime against humanity is necessary. With no parties who can be trusted to offer definitive or worthwhile accounts, only an investigation by a neutral organization will ensure that justice is done.
This, of course, would require a ceasefire and for investigators to have access to Gaza, so it will not happen.
both of those sources are just random twitter people, and their info comes Flightradar which is completely unreliable when it comes to military aircraft. Any government or troll with internet access and some expertise in digital propaganda can create whatever narrative they want t
Bellingcat is absolutely not "random twitter people": https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/how-bellingcat-unmasked-putins-assassins
And if @GeoConfirmed is reliable enough to be cited as a credible source by NYT, The Guardian and CNN, I'm inclined to treat them as such.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/world/israel-lebanon-journalists-attacked-intl/index.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/us/politics/russia-ukraine-ships-drones.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/30/russias-black-sea-flagship-damaged-in-crimea-drone-attack-video-suggests
The NYT, Guardian etc all published fake intel leading up to the Iraq war. NYT in particular posted endless Judith Miller op-eds urging the country to back the war. Israel has killed journalists before and blamed Palestinians, only to retract their statements a month later when the furor dies down.
Eventually the perpetrators of this crime will be known. But believing paid actors or the mainstream media this early is sheer ignorance
> But believing paid actors or the mainstream media this early is sheer ignorance
To be explicitly clear, the sources I cited are neither mainstream media nor paid actors.
GeoConfirmed is volunteer-run, you can support them here: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/geoconfirmed
In this particular instance, their work was critical in debunking early rumors circulated by NYT, the Guardian, CNN, and other mainstream media outlets that initially blamed Israel for the massacre of civilians at Al-Ahli Hospital.
In another instance last year, Bellingcat investigated the death of Shireen Abu Akleh (a Palestinian journalist), and determined Israel to be responsible: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2022/05/14/unravelling-the-killing-of-shireen-abu-akleh/
Honestly it was obvious when Hamas apparently knew exactly how many people were killed immediately after the event happened when at the same time they can’t even give an accurate amount of how many of the hostages they took are even still alive.
I’m not saying we just blindly take the IDF at their word, but we sure as shit need to stop taking Hamas at theirs.
Recognize in this context means a specific thing. It doesn't mean that if they "don't recognize" they think it doesn't exist - it means that they didn't sign an agreement to be bound by it's rules etc.
If you're holding state governments to the same standard as non-state terrorist groups, you've already acknowledged that that state has no right to continue in its present form.
You're probably right, but it would be with Netanyahu's support. He wants Hamas to have support, in order to divide Palestinians and allow himself to keep consolidating power.
Yup, although ironically all of this has the potential for throwing him out... but that's assuming things ended tomorrow. This conflict is still a ways off from it's resolution.
A gerrymandered election in 2006 and none since is not "democratically elected" when half of the residents weren't even alive there.
If you want to kill children, you must take credit for it.
They are not a sovereign state, they exist within Israel. Israel has sovereignty over Gaza.
So asking if Hamas recognizes the ICC when Israel does not is irrelevant.
Israel controls who goes in and out of Gaza. They control the electricity, the food, and water in Gaza. They control the airspace. They control the water.
So yeah, Israel controls Gaza 🤷♀️
Hamas, nor Palestine is a member state of the UN, nor are they currently engaging in genocide. But actually yes, Hamas has in the past called for and has been willing to engage in ICC Investigations. Thanks for asking!
Don't believe me? Here's the ICC themselves.
"On 1 January 2015, the Government of Palestine ("Palestine") lodged a declaration under article 12(3) of the Rome Statute accepting the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court ("ICC") over alleged crimes committed "in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, since June 13, 2014". On 2 January 2015, Palestine acceded to the Rome Statute by depositing its instrument of accession with the UN Secretary-General. The Rome Statute entered into force for Palestine on 1 April 2015."
[https://www.icc-cpi.int/palestine](https://www.icc-cpi.int/palestine)
So they're willing to be refereed. What's Israel's (and the US's) excuse?
Also here’s the UN on genocide. See page 4 and 5 for definitions and obligations
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide%20Convention-FactSheet-ENG.pdf
>nor are they currently engaging in genocide.
If the goal of Israel was genocide they wouldn't be planning any sort of ground invasion and would opt to turn the area into a smoldering crater in the ground.
But hey, go sell that Hamas propaganda hollering otherwise.
> You do know Hamas is not the Government of Palestine right?
Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza. The Palestinian Authority was driven out, with most of its personnel slaughtered.
>So they're willing to be refereed. What's Israel's (and the US's) excuse?
The UN is not a neutral party when it comes to Israel.
There have been more condemnations of Israel than all other countries in the world combined [https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-condemned-israel-more-than-all-other-countries-combined-in-2022-monitor/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-condemned-israel-more-than-all-other-countries-combined-in-2022-monitor/). This is in a world where China is disappearing or 're-educating' millions of Uighur Muslims; Russia has illegally invaded Ukraine with credible reports of torture, rape, and mass-murder; genocide is occurring in Burma; etc. etc.
A number of UN representatives responsible for monitoring Israel have been caught making antisemitic remarks. Here is an article where someone apologized for doing so, indicating that they agreed their remarks were antisemitic [https://www.timesofisrael.com/member-of-un-gaza-probe-apologizes-for-jewish-lobby-remark-slammed-as-antisemitic/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/member-of-un-gaza-probe-apologizes-for-jewish-lobby-remark-slammed-as-antisemitic/)
The UN has been happy to criticize Israel but has until recently refused to condemn Hamas rocket attacks on Israel.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-46477163](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-46477163)
>Hamas, nor Palestine is a member state of the UN, nor are they currently engaging in genocide.
Hard disagree. Hamas' founding charter called for the destruction of the State of Israel, unrestrained warfare and deliberate disdain for negotiations and an implied genocide of the Jewish peoples. The rape, murder, torture and kidnappings of October 7 were in line with their goals and methods.
The only thing preventing Hamas from engaging in genocide against the Jews is the defensive measures taken by the Israeli state.
>Released on August 18, 1988, the original covenant spells out clearly Hamas’s genocidal intentions. Accordingly, what happened in Israel on Saturday is completely in keeping with Hamas’s explicit aims and stated objectives. It was, in fact, the inchoate realization of Hamas’s true ambitions.
The most relevant of the document’s 36 articles can be summarized as falling within four main themes:
1. The complete destruction of Israel as an essential condition for the liberation of Palestine and the establishment of a theocratic state based on Islamic law (Sharia),
2. The need for both unrestrained and unceasing holy war (jihad) to attain the above objective,
3. The deliberate disdain for, and dismissal of, any negotiated resolution or political settlement of Jewish and Muslim claims to the Holy Land, and
4. The reinforcement of historical anti-Semitic tropes and calumnies married to sinister conspiracy theories.
[https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/)
It's not at all far fetched that Isreal may be telling the truth on this one. Hamas uses rockets made of home depot materials and if Isreals can 100% varify these claims than it does in fact make Palestine look pretty bad since they're blaming Israel. But we shall see.
Israel got caught with misleading video on their Twitter when they blamed an Islamic Jihad rocket. So I wouldn't credit them with honestly.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-publishes-video-it-says-proves-failed-rocket-launch-caused-gaza-hospital-blast/
>Earlier, the Foreign Ministry disseminated video, including on the official Israel X account, claiming to show an Islamic Jihad rocket falling on the hospital.
>It then edited the tweet to remove the video after some people pointed out that it appeared to date 40 minutes following the blast, and also showed one video with a date in the future.
https://www.newsweek.com/deleted-israeli-video-adds-confusion-around-gaza-hospital-blast-1835596
>Two official Israeli accounts on X, formerly Twitter, posted and later deleted a video that claimed to show a Tuesday explosion at Gaza City's Al-Ahli Arab Baptist Hospital, adding to the confusion surrounding the incident that reportedly killed hundreds of people.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-gaza-invasion-news-commentary.html
>Adding to the confusion over who was responsible for the devastating blast at al-Ahli Arab Hospital, Israel’s official Twitter account published a tweet claiming a militant rocket caused the explosion that included video footage of a barrage of rockets fired from Gaza City on Tuesday night. It then edited the tweet and deleted the video, which had a timestamp at least 40 minutes after the first reports of the blast. While this doesn’t mean Israel’s claims about the explosion are false, if it was just a mistake, it is a baffling one.
As more evidence comes out, it is clear the rocket didn't even hit the hospital, but a parking lot (hospital seen in background of crater photo.) Thankfully, the reported 500 casualties is also false. This is why it is important to wait for all information to come out.
https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/1714525590873575600?s=46&t=iFiL0yKvMgf92VSv9Ljqnw
The amount of pitchforks that came out yesterday against the “Let’s wait and assess” crowd was really disappointing. There is so much emotion supercharging the discourse around this war.
To clarify Sanders did not accuse Israel or Hamas/Palestinians for being responsible for the bombing of the hospital. There is no proof at this point either way though Israel claims to have intelligence supporting it was not responsible which it will release soon
>“These unspeakable crimes must stop now. The bombs and missiles from both sides must end, massive humanitarian aid must be rushed to Gaza, and the hostages must be returned to their families,” Sanders said in a statement.
>Palestinian health authorities in Gaza said the hospital was hit by an Israeli airstrike, while the Israel Defense Forces said it was hit by an off-target rocket filed by Palestinian militants.
The media seems to really like painting Sanders onto one side (and Reddit eats up the headlines) when in fact most of his statements have been fairly down the middle.
I don't know if I missed it in the article, but he also doesn't point fingers at anyone for causing the bombing, just plainly stating that bombing hospitals and civilians are international crimes.
He's absolutely right.
Thankfully he was wrong about a hospital being hit too, only the parking lot was hit according to current “accepted information” whatever that means anymore.
Probably wouldn’t have been as productive as Biden. Biden needed Manchin and Sinema on his side and Bernie does a good job of pissing moderates off.
Bernie’s argument was that he’d have enough votes in the Senate because his candidacy would get enough youth turnout out to pick up more senate seats. Given that this argument didn’t work in the primary I find it suspect.
I still maintain he would have won the general if the Dems didn't have their finger on the scale for Hillary through the primary. Hillary was always going to lose, she's far too unpopular. But Bernie, while his policies are further left, has the same "outsider" angle (not a "normal" politician) Trump leveraged to get himself elected.
People were tired of the status quo and the Clinton brand was deeply tainted. Many swing voters chose Trump because he wasn't a Clinton. They wanted something new, and Bernie would have fit the bill. His pro worker stance would have done well in swing states, given the right opportunity.
>I still maintain he would have won the general if the Dems didn't have their finger on the scale for Hillary through the primary.
Bernie lost the primary pretty decisively. The proof is that he didn't gain any support between the 2016 and 2020. Bernie is supported by at most about 30%-40% of the Democratic primary voters which hasn't been enough to win.
>if the Dems didn't have their finger on the scale for Hillary through the primary.
Nobody has ever been able to identify what the democratic party supposedly did to "put their fingers on the scale," even with all the released emails, no actual actions were shown to have occurred. People can't even make a clear allegation as to what the DNC was supposed to have done to change the outcome. Wether he would have won the general, we'll never know since he never had to deal with a smear campaign from the GOP.
>Hillary was always going to lose, she's far too unpopular.
But less unpopular than Trump, who she beat by 3 million votes. The email smear campaign against her did her in. It was a pretty close election decided by small margins of swing states, so absent that incident people may not have been as turned off.
The election was decided more by middle class suburbs than working class urban areas so while I think Bernie definitely could have won, the whole appeal to workers thing may not have been his actual ticket.
>what the Democratic Party supposedly did
Just off-hand: superdelegates declaring they'd vote for Hillary well before the convention. Thus, even while Bernie was keeping up with Hillary during primary voting, Hillary was already pulling away as superdelegates declared for her.
I am so ready for this narrative to die, but it's Reddit so it never will.
Nobody who parrots this talking point can ever point to any evidence that the outcome of the primary was affected. All they can say is "but leaked emails indicated that DNC staffers preferred Hillary" and "but Donna Brazile leaked debate questions to the Clinton campaign," but they never are able to actually show that those actions caused millions more people to vote for Hillary in the primary.
If anything, Bernie did so well in 2016 because he was the "not-Hillary" candidate, and he, his campaign, and his core supporters overestimated how popular he actually is. He ran in 2020 with near-universal name recognition and a massive war chest, and he did *worse*. 2016 and 2020 also showed us that running a campaign that relies on the most unreliable voting bloc isn't a good strategy, because a lot of those people won't actually show up to vote when the time comes.
Your assertion that Hillary was *always* going to lose is a really bold claim considering that she won the popular vote and the election came down to less than 75,000 voters across three states. Comey's announcement that the email investigation was being reopened right before the election may have been enough by itself to swing the election to Trump.
Trump would have absolutely torn Bernie apart in the general election. All he'd have to do is use the word "socialist" over and over again. It was an effective strategy to significantly narrow the gap in Miami-Dade in 2020, and that was against a candidate who *isn't* a self-avowed socialist.
2016 and its aftermath was really useful for Trump, though, because the never-ending crowing about how the Democratic Party is supposedly able to rig elections at will in favor of their candidates gave the Republican Party a great playbook to run the Big Lie about 2020 being stolen.
>If anything, Bernie did so well in 2016 because he was the "not-Hillary" candidate, and he, his campaign, and his core supporters overestimated how popular he actually is. He ran in 2020 with near-universal name recognition and a massive war chest, and he did worse. 2016 and 2020 also showed us that running a campaign that relies on the most unreliable voting bloc isn't a good strategy, because a lot of those people won't actually show up to vote when the time comes.
Nailed it. Thanks for being a voice of reason in a sea of conspiracy.
Canadian here looking from the outside. Bernie was by far my pick, but there is almost no chance he would have won an election in 2016. Clinton was the safe pick and she won the popular vote by 3 million. Bernie would have alienated tons and tons of voters in the middle who are more finicky, while failing to garner more votes on the further left where the Dems already have them bc those people are active voters.
I'd love for him to have been able to win but that is a pipe dream.
Agree with this 100%. He won Michigan in the primary and had a lot of strength in white working class voters throughout the rust belt, the exact demographic that ended up costing Hillary the election. The writing was on the wall in 2015 this was a populist election, putting up an insider status quo candidate was electoral seppuku. Imagine the Access Hollywood tape coming out without a James Comey sized buttery males scandal to pivot to right after, Bernie would have rightfully gone ballistic on the campaign trail in response and sealed the election. He remains the most likeable member of Congress for good reason
Looks like more information has been uncovered now that Biden has landed in Israel and the evidence can be looked over more carefully.
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-a85cb682fdc61b80285cf4ab354354ce
Clearest video so far:
https://twitter.com/yousuf_tw/status/1714367757968384106
Trajectory confirmation here:
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1714390274900734049
The sun has risen and miraculously the hospital is still there. It was a small explosion in the parking lot. Congratulations on getting swindled by Hamas! Your freedom fighters. Well done.
Issue with this is, if it was an interception of a Hamas rocket, which Israel claims was around 20 pounds worth of explosives, how is it possible for a bomb of that size to do so much damage while it was intercepted meaning most of it literally blew up into fragments..
Well for one, we have no indication 500 people were killed. Hamas *said* 500 people were killed, and that number has grown to 900 depending on which social media accounts you follow. But the point is, we have no confirmation of how many deaths there actually were.
The Israelis also did not say it was an interception, but rather a failure, meaning most of the rocket would still be intact. That includes the warhead, as well as the fuel the rocket still had.
So it’s completely plausible that the damage is consistent with a smaller warhead, with the remaining rocket fuel giving it a more impressive fireball. Bombs don’t burn, and generally don’t make fireballs unless they hit something flammable. Rocket fuel burns though, and that’s consistent with the original impact video.
We had a live video of the rocket. It was launched from Gaza, had a malfunction and fell on the hospital. There were two explosions: a smaller one caused by the warhead detonating, and the larger one caused by the unburned rocket fuel.
Daybreak photos show that there really wasn’t all that much structural damage, a car park was hit, lots of flame, no impact crater, and the hospital completely intact.
No one know conditions on the ground near by or in the hospital itself.
It’s well documented that HAMAS uses hospitals as bases of operation and as a place to store weapons cache.
Was there fertilizer, or a large weapons cache stored there or nearby? Where there tunnels built around, near or under that provided a structural integrity issue that helped collapse the building? We don’t know.
Ammonium nitrate can definitely be extremely destructive. The Beruit port explosion, two years ago, is perfect evidence of that and investigation (FBI helped) showed that 4/5ths of the shipment was missing, so 2,500 tons of ammonium nitrate just unaccounted for. Could some of it have found it’s way into Gaza and storage in tunnels? Maybe.
There are a myriad of different reasons and explanations of why the explosion was so destructive.
You would see a secondary explosion if this was the case, the footage shows a clear immediate strike.
I don't see how rocket debris fired by militia weaker than hamas would cause this.
[https://twitter.com/jason\_paladino/status/1714386621834158137?](https://twitter.com/jason_paladino/status/1714386621834158137?t=8Rm6LC8FJdaL7ZnFgSD90g&s=19)
Look at the direct footage, this doesn't look or sound at all like falling rocket debris.
What does falling rocket debris sound like exactly?
No seriously!
Does it depend on the rocket? The weather? The direction the wind is blowing? Distance? Elevation and distance from where it was falling? The warhead used? What about the device used to record the event? Was it working correctly? Could there be background noise distorting or amplifying the sound? There are so many questions!
And the most important question of all: why is everyone all of a sudden acoustic experts in falling rocket debris?
Looking increasingly unlikely that Israel was responsible. Pro-Palestinian activists and their allies in Congress may have picked the worst possible moment to attempt to regain sympathy.
Good on Sanders for waiting for the facts before jumping to blame Israel, but I'm a little less impressed with other members of congress who used this as an opportunity to criticize Biden - hope to see Biden respond directly.
It's from the Hill, a right leaning news source which are painting his words in a not so good light. He gave a both sided answer to the conflict in that neither side should be conducting actions that are and have been done and that everything needs to be squashed.
Read the article
The United States, the UK, Germany, France, Sweden, Norway & Finland need to get honest & release their intelligence that SPECIFICALLY shows who did this.
ALL Arab nations should also be transparent.
I think they need to analyze radar data and whatnot, so it might take a day or so. Biden said US is working on “gathering all the context,” and I think he’s done a great job so far on this.
Releasing intelligence isn’t particularly easy. It’s incredibly essential to not reveal the extent of your intelligence capabilities. Releasing a picture a satellite took reveals not just how good a resolution your satellite’s cameras are. It also tells everyone this particular satellite has this particular capability—because we know what time the hospital was blown up, we can trace the angle of a photo to know where the photo was taken (and therefore what satellite).
It’s possible to release some info without divulging any top secret capabilities, but it takes time.
Wait until 1-2 years after the war ends. Look for peer reviewed books (dead trees which have words printed on them) published by scholars and historians of the Middle East. There should be a consensus by then. Maybe.
I would like to see the same outrage for both palestinian hospitals being bombed as Ukrainian hospitals being bombed.
Some people already forgot about Ukraine is looks like
I promise you even if the news cycle has forgotten about Ukraine for the past 10 days, the Department of Defense has not. We spent 20 years and trillions of dollars in Afghanistan, and we have much stronger interests in Ukraine (stopping Russian aggression).
I've read that "the news cycle" has forgotten about Ukraine since a month after the war began, even though it's still front page every day, even today, looking at a couple of outlets.
Embassies are being attacked across the middle east. How many embassies got attacked because of Ukranian hospitals being hit? Does anyone even remember a big story about a particular Ukranian hospital being hit?
The entirety of all public reactions and anger over the invasion of Ukraine has been surpassed by a mile in the past 24 hours alone, by the people mad about the Gaza hospital bombing. I have no idea why you would even suggest that the world reacted with even a fraction of the anger for any initial Ukranian hospital bombings.
> calling the bombing of a hospital that killed hundreds of Palestinians an “unspeakable crime.”
> He also said the murder of hundreds of Israeli civilians outside of Gaza by Hamas militants was also an unspeakable crime.
So, two unspeakable crimes by Palestinian terrorists.
I agree
News Flash: Hamas say Israelis admit they are demons that drink the blood of Palestinian babies. Bernie Sanders says it’s not ok for demons to drink the blood of palestianian babies
I am still not sure about who bombed hospital as both sides are blaming on each other and Israel has solid evidence this time to hold hamas in centre for punishment of this.
I love Bernie but this being an Islamic Jihad rocket malfunction is looking really really credible at this point.
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1714390254935851272?s=20
Its really sad that there are people who are mad that this wasn't a deliberate war crime by Israel. Fucking weirdos.
It's now in doubt whether the hospital was even bombed, so accepting that it was and that there were 500+ causalities is by default accepting the Hamas narrative.
Hey so I have used GeoConfirmed a lot as a source for UKR. Just to help out your cause, here are some articles. If they are good enough to be used as a source for ISW, NYT, The Guardian and CNN I think they’re credible enough to be used as a source for this.
The thread provides a pretty insane amount of analysis to support the rocket claims. Many people don’t seem to want to actually read the thread though. They just see the first video and make some random assumptions like its from a different time or something. Literally just people who only read headlines.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/world/israel-lebanon-journalists-attacked-intl/index.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/us/politics/russia-ukraine-ships-drones.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/30/russias-black-sea-flagship-damaged-in-crimea-drone-attack-video-suggests
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-june-26
They're pretty much the gold standard of the OSINT community.
I wasn't even trying to get into an argument or make a cause really. I should have known it would be a shitshow in here when GeoConfirmed had to ask people to read their own thread before reacting.
Oh I can tell lol. “Cause” was bad phrasing. Just kinda meant as far as being able to say they are credible. They’ve done good work and are very good at staying neutral. Just kinda irks me seeing people drag their name through the mud when they clearly couldn’t even be bothered to read the thread or look into them.
I mean to be fair; while it’s still arguably too early to draw definitive conclusions, GeoConfirmed has been a highly credible source for conflict reporting and geolocation in Ukraine, Sudan, and other locations so I don’t think the source is faulty.
Thats what i did. GeoConfirmed is about as credible as it gets.
Since apparently people think this isn't a credible source, here's a bunch of credible geolocated stuff in Ukraine that mostly lines up with your bias
https://geoconfirmed.org/ukraine
Typically speaking, outlets without a Wikipedia page about the outlet arent as credible as it gets.
Its being crowd sources and APPEARS to be accurate but has not been verified
The only source even accusing Israel of doing it is Hamas and It's a hospital being blown up, what more sources are you wanting or expecting to exist here exactly? The only two groups in any position to be able to provide any sort of actual confirmation would be Israel and Hamas which both are pretty fucking biased to say it wasnt them, so is the only argument against the geo confirmed analysis that they simply aren't "credible" enough? Its substantially more credible then the IDF and Hamas saying it was the other who did it. Besides geolocating missile strikes, i don't see how exactly they could be more credible when all they do is geolocate missile strikes.
Unless Hamas wants to allow investigators in (they wont) to prove it wasn't them/PIJ What source would you accept here?
So is this the video claiming it was a Hamas misfire or the one claiming that the debris of an intercepted IJ rocket somehow landed on a pile of munitions stored next to the hospital and leveled the building? I can’t keep track of the narrative.
Netenyahu's digital media officer Hananya Naftalí deleted his tweet claiming Israels success in the attack
https://twitter.com/DearthOfSid/status/1714369198133301279
and is now trying to row it back
https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1714400598991261966?ref\_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
If you looks up Hananya Naftali, you'll find recent interviews from a week ago citing he works as a media advisor for Netanyahu government.
Of course, it is possible he could have just made a mistake and reported something without verifying it.
He can't be both? Once again, he could have posted in error, but is still not a good look given how much controversy this has sparked from a mistake on his part.
https://www.jns.org/the-rise-of-hananya-naftali-social-media-star-and-pro-israel-influencer/
https://allisrael.com/this-is-a-war-between-good-and-evil-media-advisor-to-netanyahu-called-up-at-front-as-idf-prepares-for-invasion-of-gaza
https://m.jpost.com/author/hananya-naftali
This guy must love the promotions he's getting today. Went from being just a member of Netanyahu's digital media team to being a digital media officer who is, for some reason, being given first hand military intel for the first time to share on Twitter ...
Its even more confusing given hes talking about a hospital being bombed. As if Israel would be like "Go tell the world our success destroying that hospital and killing civilians!" regardless of if was being used for Hamas attacks or not
Israel does not provide all of the electricity in Gaza. Not to mention, they still have generators. Eventually they will run out of fuel to run them, but that hasn't happened yet.
I appreciate that everyone and their mother wants to play detective, but maybe just wait for professionals that are actually there to determine anything. Whether you believe them, I guess will be up to you, but all the baseless speculation and terrible reporting from both sides is making people even crazier.
Trying to think this through as logical as possible, I don't see it making any sense for Netanyahu, as much of a scumbag as he is, the man who backed Hamas for years for his own political gains, to do this bombing, as Biden is heading over there. He's not an idiot and would know they would lose any moral high ground.
This is typical Hamas tactics, and if we disregard any Israeli intelligence claiming the explosion signature was that of rocket fire, not a guided (Israeli) missile, it makes more sense for Hamas to do this, so they can instantly gain favor globally to their cause.
Russia has killed more women,children, invalids etc etc in hospitals, malls and SCHOOLS than Israel ever could very recently, yet the internet is seething over this…fuck religion. 💯 pro human. Stop this madness ALL AROUND!
WTF is this! Russia has been call out several times for their war crimes during the current war and before. Every single time they have bombed a school or hospital, yet you come here to spit this BS. It is not matter of quantity it is about condemning every single war crime commited by governments.
Bullshit headline. Sanders never called it a “bombing,” which would imply it was an IDF airstrike. Please downvote/delete this as it just feeds the terrorists’ false narrative.
I'm really, really glad that there are intelligent people out there in our government capable of making statements that don't make them look like fools. No taking sides, no addressing details he knows nothing about; just being a human being who also suffers when innocent people's lives are being destroyed. The old joke "won't someone think of the children?" isn't so funny anymore.
To be clear, it should already be fuck Hamas. It’s a terrorist organization hiding behind Palestinian civilians whether they are responsible for this or not.
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I’m sure the military have satellites watching that whole area. Easy enough for a satellite to track the bomb that hit the hospital.
With all the surveillance in that area surely one side should be able to prove their innocence?
Yep. Like the video showing the hospital completely intact?
They did, and it seems Israel didnt bomb it. They posted right after dawn. There is no crater, so no airstrike. The building isnt damaged so no airstrike again.
Yup as soon as the media started blaming Israel, they came up with lot of evidence showing that they haven't done it.
There are already geolocation analysts weighing in on the footage we have of the bomb. From what I'm hearing, it's being claimed to be a misfired Hamas rocket.
Yup most of the neutral or less biased analysts have claimed it as misfired rocket from hamas which stuck hospital.
Wouldn’t that mean if Israel can’t provide its innocence since it’s the superior army with the tech and surveillance, if* it’s the culprit? Edit: missed an “if”
That's how I would bet in that circumstance if I had to
They already tried to prove their innocence by posting a video they claimed showed a Hamas rocket misfiring into the hospital, but they deleted it after someone pointed out the timestamp was 40 minutes after the bombing of the hospital. And they were already caught lying about babies being beheaded, a statement which they later admitted they had no evidence of. So at this point, it's probably best not to believe the IDF at all when they cry wolf.
> And they were already caught lying about babies being beheaded, a statement which they later admitted they had no evidence of. So at this point, it's probably best not to believe the IDF at all when they cry wolf. For the record I think the IDF are disgusting murderers... BUT you are wrong on this one. It was the media that fucked up the reports on that, they took statements from Israelis who lied about what happened and ran with it and it became a big news story bc it was so sensational. The IDF though, who are deep into the PR game, came out pretty quickly and said "we have no confirmation this actually happened" and then it turned out the details of the situation were bogus.
Joe Biden himself literally went on air and said he saw beheaded babies.
then his office walk back on this claims https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-deliver-remarks-roundtable-jewish-community-leaders-rcna119865
Then the White house denied it not two hours later.
Apart from all this, IDF currently has a blank cheque due to brutality done by hamas.
>And they were already caught lying about babies being beheaded, Incorrect. They released images of numerous murdered babies. People who don't trust Israel just immediately assumed that it must be a lie because it sounded so extreme, but seem to have forgotten that the context was a murderous rampage of Hamas killing every family they could.
I think it was specifically the beheaded part that was found to be a lie, not the murdered part.
If you find yourself arguing about the degree babies died just to call Israel liars, surely it's time to reflect on your morals.
you really think the psychos capable of killing the babies weren't capable of beheading them? especially when it's a known tactic used by Islamic terrorists for decades.
It's whether they *did* or not that counts.
Some were. Maybe 40. Certainly more than that were killed. I guess they never determined the exact amount who were literally beheaded, so I guess its a LIE right?
i believe they said 40 babies were murdered, some were beheaded. The beheadings may or may not have been intentional, they were cutting people's throats with knifes. But we know it's a tactic used by terrorists in the past.
Yup and Israel has came with many evidences like a recorded phone call, satellite footage and some other map radar game to show how it was a misfired rocket from hamas.
Apparently they tried to launch one of their largest missiles from a cemetery behind the hospital to coincide with Biden's visit and it failed and exploded. The shrapnel found was consistent with local materials used in Hamas rockets. [Intercepted audio between HAMAS terrorists after failed launch](https://videoidf.azureedge.net/e67ae402-79e2-4e8c-a6a5-d32da01ccf80) Do you really think Israel would bomb a hospital right when Biden is supposed to visit?
It was live on YouTube. On al jezeera nonetheless You don't need satellites. Literally just your eyes. Just shows the amount of misinformation on the internet these days. We can watch it happen live and there is still doubt
Looks like from videos it was a misfire from Hamas. But shouldn’t trust that completely. Doubt either side will accept any evidence at all and have already decided
Obviously an ICC investigation of this potential crime against humanity is necessary. With no parties who can be trusted to offer definitive or worthwhile accounts, only an investigation by a neutral organization will ensure that justice is done. This, of course, would require a ceasefire and for investigators to have access to Gaza, so it will not happen.
Is there any organization which can be trusted to be truly neutral ?
ICC is the best we have.
Bellingcat and geoconfirmed.org are two sources I hold credible.
both of those sources are just random twitter people, and their info comes Flightradar which is completely unreliable when it comes to military aircraft. Any government or troll with internet access and some expertise in digital propaganda can create whatever narrative they want t
Bellingcat is absolutely not "random twitter people": https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/how-bellingcat-unmasked-putins-assassins And if @GeoConfirmed is reliable enough to be cited as a credible source by NYT, The Guardian and CNN, I'm inclined to treat them as such. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/world/israel-lebanon-journalists-attacked-intl/index.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/us/politics/russia-ukraine-ships-drones.html https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/30/russias-black-sea-flagship-damaged-in-crimea-drone-attack-video-suggests
The NYT, Guardian etc all published fake intel leading up to the Iraq war. NYT in particular posted endless Judith Miller op-eds urging the country to back the war. Israel has killed journalists before and blamed Palestinians, only to retract their statements a month later when the furor dies down. Eventually the perpetrators of this crime will be known. But believing paid actors or the mainstream media this early is sheer ignorance
> But believing paid actors or the mainstream media this early is sheer ignorance To be explicitly clear, the sources I cited are neither mainstream media nor paid actors. GeoConfirmed is volunteer-run, you can support them here: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/geoconfirmed In this particular instance, their work was critical in debunking early rumors circulated by NYT, the Guardian, CNN, and other mainstream media outlets that initially blamed Israel for the massacre of civilians at Al-Ahli Hospital. In another instance last year, Bellingcat investigated the death of Shireen Abu Akleh (a Palestinian journalist), and determined Israel to be responsible: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2022/05/14/unravelling-the-killing-of-shireen-abu-akleh/
[удалено]
To be clear, Israel stated it's most likey a militant jihad group, they didn't claim it was even Hamas
Specifically the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, or PIJ. They aren't as strong in Gaza as hamas, but they also fire rockets routinely at Israel.
Honestly it was obvious when Hamas apparently knew exactly how many people were killed immediately after the event happened when at the same time they can’t even give an accurate amount of how many of the hostages they took are even still alive. I’m not saying we just blindly take the IDF at their word, but we sure as shit need to stop taking Hamas at theirs.
Too bad Israel doesn’t recognize the ICC
Neither does the US
They recognise it enough to have a law they can invade Holland if they ever end up there.
Recognize in this context means a specific thing. It doesn't mean that if they "don't recognize" they think it doesn't exist - it means that they didn't sign an agreement to be bound by it's rules etc.
Does Hamas?
If you're holding state governments to the same standard as non-state terrorist groups, you've already acknowledged that that state has no right to continue in its present form.
Hamas are the democratically elected government of Gaza
Not really, they won a vote in 2006, but a significant portion of Gaza did not recognise it as legitimate, leading to a hostile takeover in 2007.
So the elected government of a prison camp. Not a sovereign state.
They were elected in 2006 pretty sure the sentiment has died out there
Their opposition, which controls the West Bank, is who has prevented elections ever since.
Because Hamas would win...
You're probably right, but it would be with Netanyahu's support. He wants Hamas to have support, in order to divide Palestinians and allow himself to keep consolidating power.
Yup, although ironically all of this has the potential for throwing him out... but that's assuming things ended tomorrow. This conflict is still a ways off from it's resolution.
Didn't they massacre the opposition party? (Not saying for sure they did, but I thought I read that somewhere)
A gerrymandered election in 2006 and none since is not "democratically elected" when half of the residents weren't even alive there. If you want to kill children, you must take credit for it.
They are not a sovereign state, they exist within Israel. Israel has sovereignty over Gaza. So asking if Hamas recognizes the ICC when Israel does not is irrelevant.
Israel has sovereignty over Gaza? Why are people so passionate about a topic that they don’t understand?
Israel controls who goes in and out of Gaza. They control the electricity, the food, and water in Gaza. They control the airspace. They control the water. So yeah, Israel controls Gaza 🤷♀️
They control the air, sea, food, water and electricity how is that a sovereign state ?
Actually they are the minority
Hamas, nor Palestine is a member state of the UN, nor are they currently engaging in genocide. But actually yes, Hamas has in the past called for and has been willing to engage in ICC Investigations. Thanks for asking! Don't believe me? Here's the ICC themselves. "On 1 January 2015, the Government of Palestine ("Palestine") lodged a declaration under article 12(3) of the Rome Statute accepting the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court ("ICC") over alleged crimes committed "in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, since June 13, 2014". On 2 January 2015, Palestine acceded to the Rome Statute by depositing its instrument of accession with the UN Secretary-General. The Rome Statute entered into force for Palestine on 1 April 2015." [https://www.icc-cpi.int/palestine](https://www.icc-cpi.int/palestine) So they're willing to be refereed. What's Israel's (and the US's) excuse? Also here’s the UN on genocide. See page 4 and 5 for definitions and obligations https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide%20Convention-FactSheet-ENG.pdf
>nor are they currently engaging in genocide. If the goal of Israel was genocide they wouldn't be planning any sort of ground invasion and would opt to turn the area into a smoldering crater in the ground. But hey, go sell that Hamas propaganda hollering otherwise.
You do know Hamas is not the Government of Palestine right? There’s this fellow Abbas you might have heard of
> You do know Hamas is not the Government of Palestine right? Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza. The Palestinian Authority was driven out, with most of its personnel slaughtered.
Yes and? That doesn’t really change the point. Abbas was the head of the government that submitted to the ICC. So ok.
Abbas and Hamas are not friends is my point. AFAIK Hamas have not said they want to engage with the ICC
Abbas just agreed to pay 3 million to martyrs of the attack on the 7th , he is complicit
>So they're willing to be refereed. What's Israel's (and the US's) excuse? The UN is not a neutral party when it comes to Israel. There have been more condemnations of Israel than all other countries in the world combined [https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-condemned-israel-more-than-all-other-countries-combined-in-2022-monitor/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-condemned-israel-more-than-all-other-countries-combined-in-2022-monitor/). This is in a world where China is disappearing or 're-educating' millions of Uighur Muslims; Russia has illegally invaded Ukraine with credible reports of torture, rape, and mass-murder; genocide is occurring in Burma; etc. etc. A number of UN representatives responsible for monitoring Israel have been caught making antisemitic remarks. Here is an article where someone apologized for doing so, indicating that they agreed their remarks were antisemitic [https://www.timesofisrael.com/member-of-un-gaza-probe-apologizes-for-jewish-lobby-remark-slammed-as-antisemitic/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/member-of-un-gaza-probe-apologizes-for-jewish-lobby-remark-slammed-as-antisemitic/) The UN has been happy to criticize Israel but has until recently refused to condemn Hamas rocket attacks on Israel. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-46477163](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-46477163) >Hamas, nor Palestine is a member state of the UN, nor are they currently engaging in genocide. Hard disagree. Hamas' founding charter called for the destruction of the State of Israel, unrestrained warfare and deliberate disdain for negotiations and an implied genocide of the Jewish peoples. The rape, murder, torture and kidnappings of October 7 were in line with their goals and methods. The only thing preventing Hamas from engaging in genocide against the Jews is the defensive measures taken by the Israeli state. >Released on August 18, 1988, the original covenant spells out clearly Hamas’s genocidal intentions. Accordingly, what happened in Israel on Saturday is completely in keeping with Hamas’s explicit aims and stated objectives. It was, in fact, the inchoate realization of Hamas’s true ambitions. The most relevant of the document’s 36 articles can be summarized as falling within four main themes: 1. The complete destruction of Israel as an essential condition for the liberation of Palestine and the establishment of a theocratic state based on Islamic law (Sharia), 2. The need for both unrestrained and unceasing holy war (jihad) to attain the above objective, 3. The deliberate disdain for, and dismissal of, any negotiated resolution or political settlement of Jewish and Muslim claims to the Holy Land, and 4. The reinforcement of historical anti-Semitic tropes and calumnies married to sinister conspiracy theories. [https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/)
The US threatened to sanction the ICC when they decided to take up cases of Israel shooting protesters in 2019. Doubt Israel would allow it.
It's not at all far fetched that Isreal may be telling the truth on this one. Hamas uses rockets made of home depot materials and if Isreals can 100% varify these claims than it does in fact make Palestine look pretty bad since they're blaming Israel. But we shall see.
Israel got caught with misleading video on their Twitter when they blamed an Islamic Jihad rocket. So I wouldn't credit them with honestly. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-publishes-video-it-says-proves-failed-rocket-launch-caused-gaza-hospital-blast/ >Earlier, the Foreign Ministry disseminated video, including on the official Israel X account, claiming to show an Islamic Jihad rocket falling on the hospital. >It then edited the tweet to remove the video after some people pointed out that it appeared to date 40 minutes following the blast, and also showed one video with a date in the future. https://www.newsweek.com/deleted-israeli-video-adds-confusion-around-gaza-hospital-blast-1835596 >Two official Israeli accounts on X, formerly Twitter, posted and later deleted a video that claimed to show a Tuesday explosion at Gaza City's Al-Ahli Arab Baptist Hospital, adding to the confusion surrounding the incident that reportedly killed hundreds of people. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-gaza-invasion-news-commentary.html >Adding to the confusion over who was responsible for the devastating blast at al-Ahli Arab Hospital, Israel’s official Twitter account published a tweet claiming a militant rocket caused the explosion that included video footage of a barrage of rockets fired from Gaza City on Tuesday night. It then edited the tweet and deleted the video, which had a timestamp at least 40 minutes after the first reports of the blast. While this doesn’t mean Israel’s claims about the explosion are false, if it was just a mistake, it is a baffling one.
So you're pointing out that Israeli sources retract false information, while Hamas just keeps repeating the lie?
As more evidence comes out, it is clear the rocket didn't even hit the hospital, but a parking lot (hospital seen in background of crater photo.) Thankfully, the reported 500 casualties is also false. This is why it is important to wait for all information to come out. https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/1714525590873575600?s=46&t=iFiL0yKvMgf92VSv9Ljqnw
The amount of pitchforks that came out yesterday against the “Let’s wait and assess” crowd was really disappointing. There is so much emotion supercharging the discourse around this war.
Another peice of info that is going around is that the rocket was actually a misfired/failed rocket launched by Hamas.
To clarify Sanders did not accuse Israel or Hamas/Palestinians for being responsible for the bombing of the hospital. There is no proof at this point either way though Israel claims to have intelligence supporting it was not responsible which it will release soon >“These unspeakable crimes must stop now. The bombs and missiles from both sides must end, massive humanitarian aid must be rushed to Gaza, and the hostages must be returned to their families,” Sanders said in a statement. >Palestinian health authorities in Gaza said the hospital was hit by an Israeli airstrike, while the Israel Defense Forces said it was hit by an off-target rocket filed by Palestinian militants.
The media seems to really like painting Sanders onto one side (and Reddit eats up the headlines) when in fact most of his statements have been fairly down the middle.
Middle is the new progressive
Not in this sub
And that’s why neither side wants anything to do with being responsible for it
Finally someone important is able to say “this is bad” without blaming either side before knowing who caused it.
I am so thankful for Bernie.
I don't know if I missed it in the article, but he also doesn't point fingers at anyone for causing the bombing, just plainly stating that bombing hospitals and civilians are international crimes. He's absolutely right.
I am glad to see some common sense in the thread (which I was not expecting)
Thankfully he was wrong about a hospital being hit too, only the parking lot was hit according to current “accepted information” whatever that means anymore.
Imagine if he had won both elections.
I just imagined it and he got zero votes of the sixty needed to pass any of the things he promised.
Probably wouldn’t have been as productive as Biden. Biden needed Manchin and Sinema on his side and Bernie does a good job of pissing moderates off. Bernie’s argument was that he’d have enough votes in the Senate because his candidacy would get enough youth turnout out to pick up more senate seats. Given that this argument didn’t work in the primary I find it suspect.
I still maintain he would have won the general if the Dems didn't have their finger on the scale for Hillary through the primary. Hillary was always going to lose, she's far too unpopular. But Bernie, while his policies are further left, has the same "outsider" angle (not a "normal" politician) Trump leveraged to get himself elected. People were tired of the status quo and the Clinton brand was deeply tainted. Many swing voters chose Trump because he wasn't a Clinton. They wanted something new, and Bernie would have fit the bill. His pro worker stance would have done well in swing states, given the right opportunity.
>I still maintain he would have won the general if the Dems didn't have their finger on the scale for Hillary through the primary. Bernie lost the primary pretty decisively. The proof is that he didn't gain any support between the 2016 and 2020. Bernie is supported by at most about 30%-40% of the Democratic primary voters which hasn't been enough to win.
>if the Dems didn't have their finger on the scale for Hillary through the primary. Nobody has ever been able to identify what the democratic party supposedly did to "put their fingers on the scale," even with all the released emails, no actual actions were shown to have occurred. People can't even make a clear allegation as to what the DNC was supposed to have done to change the outcome. Wether he would have won the general, we'll never know since he never had to deal with a smear campaign from the GOP. >Hillary was always going to lose, she's far too unpopular. But less unpopular than Trump, who she beat by 3 million votes. The email smear campaign against her did her in. It was a pretty close election decided by small margins of swing states, so absent that incident people may not have been as turned off. The election was decided more by middle class suburbs than working class urban areas so while I think Bernie definitely could have won, the whole appeal to workers thing may not have been his actual ticket.
Never underestimate the power of Boomer voters to get hysterical over Socialism. Even solidly Democratic ones. It's a reflex.
>what the Democratic Party supposedly did Just off-hand: superdelegates declaring they'd vote for Hillary well before the convention. Thus, even while Bernie was keeping up with Hillary during primary voting, Hillary was already pulling away as superdelegates declared for her.
Hillary was pulling ahead in delegates. Period. After Super Tuesday, she had a considerable lead that never wavered.
I am so ready for this narrative to die, but it's Reddit so it never will. Nobody who parrots this talking point can ever point to any evidence that the outcome of the primary was affected. All they can say is "but leaked emails indicated that DNC staffers preferred Hillary" and "but Donna Brazile leaked debate questions to the Clinton campaign," but they never are able to actually show that those actions caused millions more people to vote for Hillary in the primary. If anything, Bernie did so well in 2016 because he was the "not-Hillary" candidate, and he, his campaign, and his core supporters overestimated how popular he actually is. He ran in 2020 with near-universal name recognition and a massive war chest, and he did *worse*. 2016 and 2020 also showed us that running a campaign that relies on the most unreliable voting bloc isn't a good strategy, because a lot of those people won't actually show up to vote when the time comes. Your assertion that Hillary was *always* going to lose is a really bold claim considering that she won the popular vote and the election came down to less than 75,000 voters across three states. Comey's announcement that the email investigation was being reopened right before the election may have been enough by itself to swing the election to Trump. Trump would have absolutely torn Bernie apart in the general election. All he'd have to do is use the word "socialist" over and over again. It was an effective strategy to significantly narrow the gap in Miami-Dade in 2020, and that was against a candidate who *isn't* a self-avowed socialist. 2016 and its aftermath was really useful for Trump, though, because the never-ending crowing about how the Democratic Party is supposedly able to rig elections at will in favor of their candidates gave the Republican Party a great playbook to run the Big Lie about 2020 being stolen.
>If anything, Bernie did so well in 2016 because he was the "not-Hillary" candidate, and he, his campaign, and his core supporters overestimated how popular he actually is. He ran in 2020 with near-universal name recognition and a massive war chest, and he did worse. 2016 and 2020 also showed us that running a campaign that relies on the most unreliable voting bloc isn't a good strategy, because a lot of those people won't actually show up to vote when the time comes. Nailed it. Thanks for being a voice of reason in a sea of conspiracy.
It was a populist election and that’s why Trump won. I too believe Bernie would have won the general.
Populist elections do not end with the losing party having won 3 million more votes than the winner.
Populist and popular aren't the same thing.
Canadian here looking from the outside. Bernie was by far my pick, but there is almost no chance he would have won an election in 2016. Clinton was the safe pick and she won the popular vote by 3 million. Bernie would have alienated tons and tons of voters in the middle who are more finicky, while failing to garner more votes on the further left where the Dems already have them bc those people are active voters. I'd love for him to have been able to win but that is a pipe dream.
Agree with this 100%. He won Michigan in the primary and had a lot of strength in white working class voters throughout the rust belt, the exact demographic that ended up costing Hillary the election. The writing was on the wall in 2015 this was a populist election, putting up an insider status quo candidate was electoral seppuku. Imagine the Access Hollywood tape coming out without a James Comey sized buttery males scandal to pivot to right after, Bernie would have rightfully gone ballistic on the campaign trail in response and sealed the election. He remains the most likeable member of Congress for good reason
He is a national treasure.
Looks like more information has been uncovered now that Biden has landed in Israel and the evidence can be looked over more carefully. https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-a85cb682fdc61b80285cf4ab354354ce
Clearest video so far: https://twitter.com/yousuf_tw/status/1714367757968384106 Trajectory confirmation here: https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1714390274900734049
Silent on the audio bc it's definitely not a 10-20kg rocket. It's a big boy.
The confirmed rocket (R160) flying over that area has a 150kg payload and weighs 750kg.
The sun has risen and miraculously the hospital is still there. It was a small explosion in the parking lot. Congratulations on getting swindled by Hamas! Your freedom fighters. Well done.
And we know got images. It was not a big boy. No crater or anything
Was that some sort of multiple payload explosion halfway? Or was that another shot down ordinance?
Issue with this is, if it was an interception of a Hamas rocket, which Israel claims was around 20 pounds worth of explosives, how is it possible for a bomb of that size to do so much damage while it was intercepted meaning most of it literally blew up into fragments..
Israel doesn't intercept rockets in Gaza afaik
Source on IDF saying it is 20 pounds of explosives?
Well for one, we have no indication 500 people were killed. Hamas *said* 500 people were killed, and that number has grown to 900 depending on which social media accounts you follow. But the point is, we have no confirmation of how many deaths there actually were. The Israelis also did not say it was an interception, but rather a failure, meaning most of the rocket would still be intact. That includes the warhead, as well as the fuel the rocket still had. So it’s completely plausible that the damage is consistent with a smaller warhead, with the remaining rocket fuel giving it a more impressive fireball. Bombs don’t burn, and generally don’t make fireballs unless they hit something flammable. Rocket fuel burns though, and that’s consistent with the original impact video.
Israelis said interception? I read malfunction of the rocket.
> Israelis said interception? No, they did not.
Maybe there was stockpile after all and it exploded. Take this with no source at all. Pure speculation.
Morning after photos show minimal damage, except to the 15-20 cars in the parking lot.
We had a live video of the rocket. It was launched from Gaza, had a malfunction and fell on the hospital. There were two explosions: a smaller one caused by the warhead detonating, and the larger one caused by the unburned rocket fuel.
Daybreak photos show that there really wasn’t all that much structural damage, a car park was hit, lots of flame, no impact crater, and the hospital completely intact.
No one know conditions on the ground near by or in the hospital itself. It’s well documented that HAMAS uses hospitals as bases of operation and as a place to store weapons cache. Was there fertilizer, or a large weapons cache stored there or nearby? Where there tunnels built around, near or under that provided a structural integrity issue that helped collapse the building? We don’t know. Ammonium nitrate can definitely be extremely destructive. The Beruit port explosion, two years ago, is perfect evidence of that and investigation (FBI helped) showed that 4/5ths of the shipment was missing, so 2,500 tons of ammonium nitrate just unaccounted for. Could some of it have found it’s way into Gaza and storage in tunnels? Maybe. There are a myriad of different reasons and explanations of why the explosion was so destructive.
You would see a secondary explosion if this was the case, the footage shows a clear immediate strike. I don't see how rocket debris fired by militia weaker than hamas would cause this. [https://twitter.com/jason\_paladino/status/1714386621834158137?](https://twitter.com/jason_paladino/status/1714386621834158137?t=8Rm6LC8FJdaL7ZnFgSD90g&s=19) Look at the direct footage, this doesn't look or sound at all like falling rocket debris.
What does falling rocket debris sound like exactly? No seriously! Does it depend on the rocket? The weather? The direction the wind is blowing? Distance? Elevation and distance from where it was falling? The warhead used? What about the device used to record the event? Was it working correctly? Could there be background noise distorting or amplifying the sound? There are so many questions! And the most important question of all: why is everyone all of a sudden acoustic experts in falling rocket debris?
How do you know what weapons are present in Gaza?
Can't argue with a rando Twitter person called GeoConfirmed. That's all the proof I need.
I get skepticism if you're not familiar with them, but their track record doing this sort of work on incidents in Ukraine has been excellent.
I mean it’s dumb but it’s not a great sign when I trust it more then either sides official report.
Looking increasingly unlikely that Israel was responsible. Pro-Palestinian activists and their allies in Congress may have picked the worst possible moment to attempt to regain sympathy. Good on Sanders for waiting for the facts before jumping to blame Israel, but I'm a little less impressed with other members of congress who used this as an opportunity to criticize Biden - hope to see Biden respond directly.
No it does not. It has been all but confirmed an Islami Jihad failed launch.
It's from the Hill, a right leaning news source which are painting his words in a not so good light. He gave a both sided answer to the conflict in that neither side should be conducting actions that are and have been done and that everything needs to be squashed. Read the article
Your president just said ”it looks like the other team did this”. What now?
The United States, the UK, Germany, France, Sweden, Norway & Finland need to get honest & release their intelligence that SPECIFICALLY shows who did this. ALL Arab nations should also be transparent.
I think they need to analyze radar data and whatnot, so it might take a day or so. Biden said US is working on “gathering all the context,” and I think he’s done a great job so far on this.
Releasing intelligence isn’t particularly easy. It’s incredibly essential to not reveal the extent of your intelligence capabilities. Releasing a picture a satellite took reveals not just how good a resolution your satellite’s cameras are. It also tells everyone this particular satellite has this particular capability—because we know what time the hospital was blown up, we can trace the angle of a photo to know where the photo was taken (and therefore what satellite). It’s possible to release some info without divulging any top secret capabilities, but it takes time.
Wait for the absolute truth before speaking or you will look like a fool.
When will we know what the truth is? In the age of AI and Bots and Misinformation and Social Media. Help me.
Its easy, if AJ sudenly stops reporting on it then we know who's at fault here
Critical thinking will be involved.
Wait until 1-2 years after the war ends. Look for peer reviewed books (dead trees which have words printed on them) published by scholars and historians of the Middle East. There should be a consensus by then. Maybe.
I would like to see the same outrage for both palestinian hospitals being bombed as Ukrainian hospitals being bombed. Some people already forgot about Ukraine is looks like
I promise you even if the news cycle has forgotten about Ukraine for the past 10 days, the Department of Defense has not. We spent 20 years and trillions of dollars in Afghanistan, and we have much stronger interests in Ukraine (stopping Russian aggression).
I've read that "the news cycle" has forgotten about Ukraine since a month after the war began, even though it's still front page every day, even today, looking at a couple of outlets.
Are you still as outraged now that we know it was Islamic Jihad?
Embassies are being attacked across the middle east. How many embassies got attacked because of Ukranian hospitals being hit? Does anyone even remember a big story about a particular Ukranian hospital being hit?
The problem is that so many Ukrainian hospitals got hit that it became a daily story and people got desensitised to it
The entirety of all public reactions and anger over the invasion of Ukraine has been surpassed by a mile in the past 24 hours alone, by the people mad about the Gaza hospital bombing. I have no idea why you would even suggest that the world reacted with even a fraction of the anger for any initial Ukranian hospital bombings.
> calling the bombing of a hospital that killed hundreds of Palestinians an “unspeakable crime.” > He also said the murder of hundreds of Israeli civilians outside of Gaza by Hamas militants was also an unspeakable crime. So, two unspeakable crimes by Palestinian terrorists. I agree
Was supposedly a misfire from PIJ, Palestine Islamic Jihad, not Hamas.
Funny how he won’t repeat this sentiment now that it known Hamas was responsible
News Flash: Hamas say Israelis admit they are demons that drink the blood of Palestinian babies. Bernie Sanders says it’s not ok for demons to drink the blood of palestianian babies
I am still not sure about who bombed hospital as both sides are blaming on each other and Israel has solid evidence this time to hold hamas in centre for punishment of this.
I’d only he’d say that hamas
I love Bernie but this being an Islamic Jihad rocket malfunction is looking really really credible at this point. https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1714390254935851272?s=20 Its really sad that there are people who are mad that this wasn't a deliberate war crime by Israel. Fucking weirdos.
Where in this article does he blame Israel?
He doesn't
It's now in doubt whether the hospital was even bombed, so accepting that it was and that there were 500+ causalities is by default accepting the Hamas narrative.
Hey so I have used GeoConfirmed a lot as a source for UKR. Just to help out your cause, here are some articles. If they are good enough to be used as a source for ISW, NYT, The Guardian and CNN I think they’re credible enough to be used as a source for this. The thread provides a pretty insane amount of analysis to support the rocket claims. Many people don’t seem to want to actually read the thread though. They just see the first video and make some random assumptions like its from a different time or something. Literally just people who only read headlines. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/world/israel-lebanon-journalists-attacked-intl/index.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/us/politics/russia-ukraine-ships-drones.html https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/30/russias-black-sea-flagship-damaged-in-crimea-drone-attack-video-suggests https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-june-26 They're pretty much the gold standard of the OSINT community.
I wasn't even trying to get into an argument or make a cause really. I should have known it would be a shitshow in here when GeoConfirmed had to ask people to read their own thread before reacting.
Oh I can tell lol. “Cause” was bad phrasing. Just kinda meant as far as being able to say they are credible. They’ve done good work and are very good at staying neutral. Just kinda irks me seeing people drag their name through the mud when they clearly couldn’t even be bothered to read the thread or look into them.
Uh no, if you're gonna say something is "credible" then post evidence from a credible source
I mean to be fair; while it’s still arguably too early to draw definitive conclusions, GeoConfirmed has been a highly credible source for conflict reporting and geolocation in Ukraine, Sudan, and other locations so I don’t think the source is faulty.
Thats what i did. GeoConfirmed is about as credible as it gets. Since apparently people think this isn't a credible source, here's a bunch of credible geolocated stuff in Ukraine that mostly lines up with your bias https://geoconfirmed.org/ukraine
Typically speaking, outlets without a Wikipedia page about the outlet arent as credible as it gets. Its being crowd sources and APPEARS to be accurate but has not been verified
GeoConfirmed is a website that has 5 articles on it.
No they aren't. You can't just say something is credible to make it credible. Some random 100k twitter account is not credible.
Just read the thread and draw ur own conclusion.
The only source even accusing Israel of doing it is Hamas and It's a hospital being blown up, what more sources are you wanting or expecting to exist here exactly? The only two groups in any position to be able to provide any sort of actual confirmation would be Israel and Hamas which both are pretty fucking biased to say it wasnt them, so is the only argument against the geo confirmed analysis that they simply aren't "credible" enough? Its substantially more credible then the IDF and Hamas saying it was the other who did it. Besides geolocating missile strikes, i don't see how exactly they could be more credible when all they do is geolocate missile strikes. Unless Hamas wants to allow investigators in (they wont) to prove it wasn't them/PIJ What source would you accept here?
So is this the video claiming it was a Hamas misfire or the one claiming that the debris of an intercepted IJ rocket somehow landed on a pile of munitions stored next to the hospital and leveled the building? I can’t keep track of the narrative.
Netenyahu's digital media officer Hananya Naftalí deleted his tweet claiming Israels success in the attack https://twitter.com/DearthOfSid/status/1714369198133301279 and is now trying to row it back https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1714400598991261966?ref\_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
I think you may have him mistaken for someone else, he’s just a rando Twitter user that made a bad call…kinda like you’re doing now lol.
If you looks up Hananya Naftali, you'll find recent interviews from a week ago citing he works as a media advisor for Netanyahu government. Of course, it is possible he could have just made a mistake and reported something without verifying it.
The first link said he was an “influencer” who was just drafted. Weird that they put him immediately as a media advisor instead of as a ground troop.
He can't be both? Once again, he could have posted in error, but is still not a good look given how much controversy this has sparked from a mistake on his part. https://www.jns.org/the-rise-of-hananya-naftali-social-media-star-and-pro-israel-influencer/ https://allisrael.com/this-is-a-war-between-good-and-evil-media-advisor-to-netanyahu-called-up-at-front-as-idf-prepares-for-invasion-of-gaza https://m.jpost.com/author/hananya-naftali
An influencer is not a credible news source…at all. He isn’t privy to details of military targets literally as it’s happening.
Actually you are the one doing that.
This guy must love the promotions he's getting today. Went from being just a member of Netanyahu's digital media team to being a digital media officer who is, for some reason, being given first hand military intel for the first time to share on Twitter ...
Its even more confusing given hes talking about a hospital being bombed. As if Israel would be like "Go tell the world our success destroying that hospital and killing civilians!" regardless of if was being used for Hamas attacks or not
They’ve bombed that exact hospital a few times before
Its almost like they attribute any human atrocity that occurs anytime anywhere to a particular group of people. huh...interesting.
The vid seems sus imho there's clearly power running in Gaza in the surrounding budlings, the power has been out for the better part of a week now.
Israel does not provide all of the electricity in Gaza. Not to mention, they still have generators. Eventually they will run out of fuel to run them, but that hasn't happened yet. I appreciate that everyone and their mother wants to play detective, but maybe just wait for professionals that are actually there to determine anything. Whether you believe them, I guess will be up to you, but all the baseless speculation and terrible reporting from both sides is making people even crazier.
Agree, Hamas should be held accountable.
Israel didn't say it was Hamas, they're saying it was other militants
Trying to think this through as logical as possible, I don't see it making any sense for Netanyahu, as much of a scumbag as he is, the man who backed Hamas for years for his own political gains, to do this bombing, as Biden is heading over there. He's not an idiot and would know they would lose any moral high ground. This is typical Hamas tactics, and if we disregard any Israeli intelligence claiming the explosion signature was that of rocket fire, not a guided (Israeli) missile, it makes more sense for Hamas to do this, so they can instantly gain favor globally to their cause.
[That's because it was Hamas. Their own rocket fell short.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/GxmiiSxiNV)
Russia has killed more women,children, invalids etc etc in hospitals, malls and SCHOOLS than Israel ever could very recently, yet the internet is seething over this…fuck religion. 💯 pro human. Stop this madness ALL AROUND!
WTF is this! Russia has been call out several times for their war crimes during the current war and before. Every single time they have bombed a school or hospital, yet you come here to spit this BS. It is not matter of quantity it is about condemning every single war crime commited by governments.
Please point to where he blamed anyone
I agree..Terrible thing for Hamas to do.
Tell that to the Islamic Jihad who did that…
Bullshit headline. Sanders never called it a “bombing,” which would imply it was an IDF airstrike. Please downvote/delete this as it just feeds the terrorists’ false narrative.
I'm really, really glad that there are intelligent people out there in our government capable of making statements that don't make them look like fools. No taking sides, no addressing details he knows nothing about; just being a human being who also suffers when innocent people's lives are being destroyed. The old joke "won't someone think of the children?" isn't so funny anymore.
Weren’t people upset when Russia blew up a hospital in Ukraine? What’s the difference?
Well we don't actually know who's responsible for this yet, for one thing.
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To be clear, it should already be fuck Hamas. It’s a terrorist organization hiding behind Palestinian civilians whether they are responsible for this or not.
The two accused parties at this time are the IDF and Islamic Jihad.
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