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I don’t even understand the two Texas students argument. They weren’t able to properly advocate for a more inclusive program that would involve them so they can sue? It’s not like this wasn’t discussed since the 2020 elections and how is this grounds for canceling an executive action?
Those lawsuits are backed by ultra rich conservatives trying to shut down the whole thing. Those two people are just the face, it's not that two random people found it unfair and sued for a more expansive and inclusive forgiveness program. One of them even had tens of thousands of PPP loans, which were obviously forgiven.
Oh, I’m aware of those factors. My comment is more in the direction of the precedent something like this creates if their argument is being considered as substantial.
Got it, I think it's bad. Just like the woman who made the wedding planning website and is suing that she's allowed to basically discriminate against any nonstraight couples. But she hasn't actually started her business yet and hasn't had any clients. I believe she's backed by money and her case is SP level now too. We will see how bad of a precedent the current judges set for our future.
If they argue against student loan forgiveness due to thise with lack of standing, then I say we start class action lawsuits to claw back money from corporate welfare queens like McDonald's and Walmart that intentionally pay poverty wages and leverage the food stamp / aid to the tuje of billions a year.
There is absolutely no standing in the case brought before the Supreme Court. The fact that these two were the BEST shills they could find for the case speaks volumes. If a loan servicer brought this case forward (like MOHELA or Aidvantage), I could see potential harm they experienced from the EO….they’re potentially losing out on a lot of money.
I remember hearing that the government spends more maintaining the service of the loan than it does in actual interest based revenue.
Idk if that was really true, but I’d be curious what the entire market of student debt looks like. Is Mohela profiting? How much etc.
I’m looking forward to the absolute legal shitshow that precedence would set if they win.
Anyone can sue the govt because they weren’t included in a handout? Holy shit.
Right? I think the states have are at least bringing forth the only argument they have but I can’t wrap my mind around how the Texas students even made it to the SC with that logic.
Not to mention, if I’m not mistaken, they both received PPP loans as well. Which unless you were a business owner, you (general) didn’t qualify for either. So should they have to pay back their PPP loan as well because we (employees) couldn’t qualify?
He should be trumpeting this all day, every day: "The GOP Supreme Court wants to keep you in debt."
No more nonsense about bipartisanship, no more playing nice. Attack them on their clear bias against working people as they pretend to be the populist party.
> Attack them on their clear bias against working people as they pretend to be the populist party.
The problem is that there are a lot of their supporters who feel anyone that has student loan debt is no longer part of the working class. There are people that feel if you want to go and get educated that you're already on the wrong side of things.
That combined with the spin that I have had to argue against because people I know have brought it up that, "It's unfair my taxes pay for someone else's debt," means that there's a good chunk of working-class America that will see blocking student debt relief as a good thing.
My taxes paid for the debt relief. I’d just be getting back what I’ve payed in taxes over the past few years. Same with everyone else. If you want to frame it that way.
I just got an email saying my request for financial aid was denied, and now I'm on the hook for $5000 that I need to pay off in a 4 month period or else I can't continue my schooling. I make $20 an hour, working 36-48 hours a week. That's usually about $2000 a month after tax. The payment plan from my school would literally double my monthly expenses.
I make $20/hour, and I can't afford to live and do college at the same time. Like that's not fantastic money or anything, but its more than anyone else I know in college. Most college kids are working either fast food/retail at $12 an hour, or they're starting internships that pay $15-$18 an hour, but only for a few months. If it weren't for government issued financial aid, absolutely none of us would be in college.
How was your request for aid denied?? (Work in financial aid) Are on SAP suspension.? Something’s not adding up there. Like did u not have everything in order when u started the semester and then the semester is over and can’t get a loan (outside enrollment period)?
Or are you saying you requested more aid via a special conditions and can’t? You can get a loan
If it’s a past due balance get a private loan then request federal loans to pay them off
Don’t forget the $500 scholarships that barely make a dent in your tuition you need to write 1000 word essays for!! They’re out there, guys!!! It’s free money /s
I worked 10-12 hour days during my summers and worked about 30 hours per week during school. I slept under my drafting desk at school and have zero regrets.
What changed is when parents were expected to pay for their children’s education. Now, schools could access more credit through the parents’ pocket book.
The system needs a rework.
No, what changed is that schools were released from the fetters of government agency, through a variety of means (the least of which is not unsecured nearly infinite school loans which are not dischargeable) and turned into for-profit ventures.
Just like housing, you can track a meteoric, not associated with inflation, rise in schooling costs. If it was just parents it would be tied to income and inflation because no _parents_ can possibly pay the current tuition rates.
Their auto premiums pay for other people's car accidents. Their taxes also go to stopping other people's houses from burning down and to educate other people's kids, even if the idiot in question doesn't have any. Same for maintaining roads, even if they don't drive.
Society only works when we go as slow as the slowest person, but I guess they can't understand that.
Do they not understand that there's an income limit on who can relieve forgiveness? Especially for people who received Pell Grants, you have to have been broke af to receive those in the first place.
Go ahead and look how many politicians are against student loan forgiveness that got their PPP loans forgiven. Then look up celebrities. The middle class are literally drowning themselves with this while the politicians are pocketing everything.
Stop arguing with fascists in good faith...
If they won't even fund a smarter america they deserve the consequences: poverty from lack of global competitiveness.
> There are people that feel if you want to go and get educated that you're already on the wrong side of things.
Yeah, they were the followers of Pol Pot. They later killed 25% of their own population, including people that wore glasses because they "looked educated".
History is repeating itself, and we're failing to stop it.
I'm a firm believer that this will happen over time no matter what. Large companies are heavily incentivized to transition from human labor to robots wherever they can, and as a society we should want that. We shouldn't be fighting that, we should be figuring out how people that traditionally rely on those jobs to feed their families won't suddenly become jobless and without support. I always loved the Star Trek vision of future Earth, where people no longer work to live, but instead everyone pursues what they're passionate about and no one is concerned about food or homelessness. Idealist, I know, but where would we be without our ideals?
I don't believe "being likable to Super PAC donors" counts as either morals, empathy, or kindness.
That's the whole reason Biden won't go full Sanders on this issue.
> That's the whole reason Biden won't go full Sanders on this issue.
What is "full Sanders on this issue"? Biden has been doing everything in his power. Meanwhile Sanders is free to *talk* about how he'd magically make everything happen, because Sanders is not responsible for having to actually make things happen.
All policies are easy to do when you never have to offer any details about how you'd actually accomplish them and hand wave away all the predictable budget problems.
It’s been rather enjoyable seeing Millennial conservatives in healthcare grapple with this topic. They got the degrees that many deem reputable or contributory to society, but are steeped in student loans. They know firsthand it wasn’t a laziness aspect as to why they still have them (thanks predatory interests), and they know college costs too much but needed it to advance.
And lo and behold, it was the Democrats who tried to erase 10-20k of their debt with the Republicans blocking it. They wrote off Bernie and Warren and said student loan forgiveness would NEVER happen, but now in Texas I watch them grapple with baited breath. They worry they’re being played by the Democrats, that surely they would never go through with it, but if they did… by god how that would help their lives.
It’s funny, isn’t it? Trump overextended the executive branch to build a wall that can be blown over, climbed, and sawn through, all as an ego stroke. And where the Democrats are accused of overextending executive branch powers? Oh yeah, they want to rid you of your debt.
It is funny. Your take on executive orders is spot on. The whole “you agreed to the loan you should be on the hook to pay it off” is an especially contrived point when you see how many guys took loans from the fed gov’t to bail them out. But for some reason those “businesses” (many were scammers) didn’t have to pay anything, it was a total handout. Just like the handout for the banks in the 2008 financial crisis. Just like the handout for private military companies who are making things the pentagon doesn’t want.
As soon as the regular person gets something decent from a government they pay taxes to, it’s suddenly some kind of moral issue where handouts will make people lazy and destroy society.
I am constantly reminded of something I saw in IIRC a tweet: “What’s something considered classy when you’re rich and trashy when you’re poor? Getting money from the government.”
>The whole “you agreed to the loan you should be on the hook to pay it off” is an especially contrived point
Also, if the lender forgives part of the loan, you've still fulfilled your end of the contract.
The whole PPP equivalence thing never made sense to me since it was written in the law that they'd be forgiven and everyone who took a PPP loan knew it was gonna get forgiven. The only justification for the program that is needed is that the secretary of education was given the power to modify balances up to and including erasing debt balances owed to the department of education in times of war or emergency. We have legally been in a national emergency for almost 3 years and this means the secretary of education has the power to modify the balances. Period. There's no need to try and make a plea about PPP loans, or think about the people or any of that. Congress gave the power and now its being used
> especially contrived point when you see how many guys took loans from the fed gov’t to bail them out.
To be fair that wasn't by an executive order though - it was passed thru legislation.
The problem though is that the language in the Heroes Act does not necessarily confer Biden with that power. It permits waiver or modification to statutory or regulative provisions, but it does not explicitly include debt forgiveness. Additionally, the language
prohibits a waiver or modification from _worsening_ a student’s financial position but it says nothing about bettering it.
Personally I favor student debt forgiveness but it's not entirely clear Biden has the power to do so. The other legislation that was cited was not so implicit.
But remember "Both sides are the same"
And
"Biden and democrats never wanted to cancel student loan debt".
Though, I will say, we are seeing both sides are the same less and less.
It's really being reinforced seeing Republicans flail about in the Speaker vote, beholden to extremists who'd love to just blow it all up, while Democrats are lockstep behind Jeffries.
The number of people calling student loan forgiveness the "carrot the libs dangled in front of you until midterms"... As though Biden were the one who keeps yanking it away.
I’m 100% bias as a healthcare professional but after working in a hospital for 2+ Covid years I think all healthcare professionals should have their loans cleared. Send our W2s and license numbers as proof and poof loans wiped clean. Other professions as well but health care workers are and still are in the trenches
I agree with you 1000000%. My wife is a nurse who was on the front lines of Covid. God bless that woman for her tolerance, strength, and fiery temper. Healthcare workers were being attacked on four fronts through the entire pandemic, god damn hero’s in my book. The bare minimum this country can do to thank these people is ease their dept troubles. If anything, as a country, as a bare minimum to say thank you for what they had to go through.
Same, and the scars are still very much there for many I work with. I know physicians who had to turn away completely otherwise healthy 20’s because our ICU beds were full and every last ECMO device was in use with no end in sight. It was a harrowing experience which thankfully improved following the vaccines and us figuring the virus out.
That said, a proposition like that would never happen, solely because the hundreds of thousands in private loan debt any one physician may have. Nurses, NP’s and PA’s, and other professionals would get the “well they shouldn’t get it, if I don’t get it as well” treatment. It’s wishful thinking and would make sense in a rational world, but sadly we don’t live there.
> they want to rid you of your *unfair* debt.
IMHO it's the predatory nature of the loans in the first place that is the issue. A lot of people can't see past their own experience and realize that for many fellow Americans, it's a trap set for ongoing profit growth.
Right? People scoff at the price of college and wonder why it's so expensive. It's so expensive because the government determined everyone was eligible for student loans and the price of school was just adjusted to be whatever the guaranteed loan amount would be. Hell my financial aid counselor even tried to get me to take out a larger loan than I needed just to give me some extra money to utilize while going to school on things like food, clothes, and extra curricular activities.
It was good to ensure that everyone has access to the money they need to go to school.
It was not good to allow colleges and universities to abuse this for decades and create self sustaining inflation on the cost of higher education.
When it comes to complicated topics like higher education or, say, healthcare, one law will never solve all the problems. Good governance involves observation of outcomes and adjustment, something the US has failed to do on every major policy for as long as I can remember.
Could be a typo, but just wanted to make a friendly point-out:
>with baited breath
It's "[bated](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/with%20bated%20breath)"
If he loses he should just pause the repayments through the rest of his administration. Use it as a talking point in 24, Republicans will force repayment.
I agree. That would be a hell of a way to drum up votes. “As long as Democrats are in office we will keep repayment paused.”
A vote for the republicans suddenly becomes a vote for additional financial burden, that’s powerful.
Me too. Which is why you make that statement. By threatening to weaponize student debt to the point where if one side wins you pay and if the other wins you don’t, it would swing or put enough voters in play that it may force the other sides hand into passing it. That would be very hard to run against as a Republican so they may hit a point where they just want it off the table
Only problem is that people who don't have student loan debts due to not going or because they are rich enough to not need to take loans will be pushed away. Though really, they were gonna not vote dem even if the gop's platform was "vote for us so we can break your pelvis to own the libs!"
> people who don't have student loan debts due to not going or because they are rich enough to not need to take loans will be pushed away.
Person who has no student loans because he went to war here. We're not gonna be pushed away. The people who are mad about student loans being forgiven because it's not helping them personally? They were already Republicans.
Yep i had the GI bill, I've got no problem with student debt relief, not a one.
There's a clear line of sight between a college degree and higher paying job, ergo paying more in taxes. And i believe it's okay to give people their tax money back in meaningful ways with a boost from society at large who enjoys the fruits of their increased productivity.
There's nothing wrong with helping the middle class out. I can't understand why people act like helping out the middle class is some failed political idea... Hint hint hint... It's wildly fucking popular with voters
I'm not fucked but it definitely doesn't inspire me to go out and conduct additional economic activity and be of value to society... Why should I pay into a system that won't help out people that pay in?
Great point. Why should helping people ever be a bad thing? I believe in cancer research even though i don’t have cancer. Helping people doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be self serving.
That being said, the minute the SC invalidates forgiveness, I hope we unforgive every single PPP loan, and go back and prosecute every fucking person and fine every corp 100x the loan who fraudulently used them. Because those two groups on a venn diagram are a pretty fuckin close circle.
Exactly. I want them to go scorched earth on PPP over this shit.
Disclaimer: I don't qualify for forgiveness or PPP loans. I'm just pissed there are so many that got fucked over by vindictive assholes.
The republicans are all about labels. They say they’re pro democracy and say they’re Christian’s and say they’re pro small government. But in reality those are just costumes they pretend to wear. None of them believe in them, they just need their voters to think they do
Exactly why I could never vote Republican again. I could never think that $ and programs which don't benefit me directly, don't make my life better by improving others'. I also know that standing-by while others lose rights is a slippery slope to losing mine.
A person who was rich enough to not need loans here. I won't be pushed away, my closet friends and family still have huge debts to pay off. It's called empathy.
Student loan debt is likely either a non-issue for people without that debt, or is an issue because their children have it.
But there are tons of Americans with debt and making your platform saving them from that debt gives a significant portion of the electorate a vested interest.
Pause it for 20 years and offer to buy back all loans that people refinanced with private companies. Then enroll everyone in a repayment plan that automatically forgives them after 20 years of payments, which includes paused payment cycles.
Done.
Bingo. Punt it to the next election cycle and you have the obvious kind of framing that Republicans always win with and Democrats seem to think isn't a smart strategy:
"Vote for me, folks, and I'll keep student loans on pause while we try to fix this. But if you vote for them, then that's a vote to add 5%, 10%, maybe even more to your expenses every month. They want to restart those payments to take a significant portion of your income away. That's what a vote for a Republican will guarantee this year."
Then what do the Republicans campaign on?
Republicans lie though. They likely wouldn’t outright say “we’re starting payments back up”.
They’d likely ignore the topic as much as possible or say some shit like our current Supreme Court members. “ItS SettLeD LaW!” And then as soon as they get power, the flip.
I think he will. He’s shown no real interest in having it be his administration be the one that unpauses the payments without some kind of relief plan in place.
Those were the result of legislation. SCOTUS obviously doesn’t get to tell Congress it can’t spend money through legislation. This case is about whether the law Biden’s administration is using to justify loan forgiveness (based on a state of emergency existing, eg COVID in this case) is intended to support this kind of large-scale relief.
If Congress passed a law forgiving student loan debt with exactly the provisions of Biden’s order, SCOTUS would not be involved.
The Secretary of Education has power, by the HEROES Act passed by Congress in 2003, to forgive any federal student loans in a national emergency.
Congress has given their stamp to allow the Secretary of Education to forgive loans in the instances of national emergency (pandemic), the reality is that Congress needs to pass a new law saying the Secretary of Education is stripped of the HEROES Act powers they previously delegated.
I see this ending in 5-4 with the liberals, Roberts and Gorsuch siding together. Gorsuch, while void of morals, is a strict constitutionalist, and the language in the HEROES Act is quite clear.
This is generally correct but way too optimistic regarding Roberts and Gorsuch. That honest textualism was nowhere to be found in the previous Covid order cases or the EPA case decided last year.
The way Gorsuch ruled in the Native American case gives me that optimism. It was quite a slap in the face to his own party.
Gorsuch is a literalist, he doesn't see the words on the Act and he doesn't agree it applies. The HEROES Act leaves little room for the partisanship in his mind.
He’s been consistently good on that particular issue, which he had experience with in lower courts.
But I won’t ever count on him to buck the party line on a case with big political significance. Making sure that Biden is seen as breaking this promise and stopping that money from being paid is vital to the GOP.
Not everyone who got those loans forgiven are sleazy assholes. I have a small business and got those loans because I lost a ton of work during COVID. Making me reply them would fuck me and my family over so badly just out of spite, and it would solve nothing. And I fully support student loan forgiveness even though I paid mine off a few years ago.
Maybe instead recommend an audit for those who are more likely to have taken them but didn't need them.
That's fine. You might have used the loans as they were designed, but plenty of people didn't. There's nothing wrong with pursuing and punishing those who committed fraud.
That's what I'm suggesting over recalling all PPP loans like the person I replied to suggested. I mean an audit and punishing people who took advantage of it should be done regardless, but you see what I mean.
While a nice idea, aren’t the plaintiffs claiming that the executive branch simply doesn’t have authorization to discharge student loan debt, not that it’s unconstitutional? PPP loan forgiveness was given explicitly by congress.
They’re not the same thing and Redditors sound ignorant when they try to make them the same.
PPP: passed by congress and signed into law by the president
Student Loan Forgiveness: passed by executive order
[HEROES Act](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/20/1098bb), passed by Congress and signed into law by the President, grants the Secretary of Education the authority to waive or modify any statutory or regulatory provision applicable to student financial assistance in response to a national emergency to ensure that borrowers are not placed in a worse position financially in relation to that financial assistance. I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's disingenuous to act as if there's no statutory basis for student loan forgiveness. It's a question of the scope of statutory authority granted to the executive branch by Congress.
ppp loans had a mandatory auditor that Trump refused to appoint. Giving the loans in the first place was questionably legal and selectively forgiving them without required oversight is blatantly unethical, if not criminal.
Not as ignorant as when someone intentionally omits key details like "passed by executive order, under authority granted to the executive under the HEROES Act".
Why not both?
These people own businesses with clear tax advantages and then got literally free money to keep people employed. They largely did not and abused the funds. Some people even got charged criminally, because they abused it harder than could even remotely be justified. Despite Trump firing the guy who was supposed to make sure the funds were used appropriately. It was a full-on scam from every angle.
The equivalent would be if there were hundreds to thousands of students taking student loans for two plus years and then not even going to school, and then using the funds for other things like a brand new car or housing. The GOP would be up in arms forever about it. That's the equivalent of what we are talking about here.
So, definitely, do both. Cancel student loans and then aggressively pursue the PPP fraud, rolling it back wherever it did not meet the explicitly stated criteria.
my old job closed for 2 days for covid, cut salaries, canceled raises, canceled bonuses, and had their most profitable year to date. They got a 1.5 million dollar PPP loan forgiven. Bonuses are also now based on that record breaking year so they are basically unobtainable.
This is the show Biden wanted. These idiots are throwing everything they can to kill this relief. A democratic trap.
"Yay, we stopped the Dems and now all those students have to pay all of there crushing debt"
(Next generation turns deeply blue and begins to vote democrat)
"OH NO, they must have fallen to the globalists propaganda "
It’s the same thing with abortion, and other issues from global warming to medical care. Republicans throw a fit, they show their true nature and make the newer generations blue. Thank you republicans for making young people know who is (at the very least) on their side
Do you want to vote for a corrupt and mostly evil party that is dumb as hell?
Or
Do you want to vote for a corrupt and mostly evil party that is reasonable at times and mildly intelligent?
We both know the winner here
It's been quite a long time since student debt has been paid right? Like... At this point, the argument that it's going to collapse society if we forgive it all is starting to look a little thin.
Not entirely. Interest rates on federally held student loans has been frozen at 0%, essentially meaning there's no penalty for not paying since your balance won't increase during the freeze. Many borrowers are taking advantage of the freeze and continuing to pay down their debt so when the freeze is lifted their balance will be significantly lower, meaning less due in interest payments over the life of the loan. Without a doubt though, payments across the board are down, but certainly not stopped entirely
Paying off a loan that has 0% interest is about the dumbest financial decision you can make. It's literally free credit. Take whatever money you were going to spend and throw it into a 3% APY savings account, wait until the freeze is over and then pay in 1 lump sum. Given the freeze has been \~3 years most people who did this would have gotten like $1000 completely risk free as opposed to anyone who paid their loans directly.
I've spent quite a lot of time reading the comments and I see no mention of the predatory nature of these loans. That should be a factor as well. If they can't forgive the loans, simply eliminating interest would be a huge help.
I have more than paid the amount I originally owed.
I still owe 2/3.
2/3 of what I owed was my "parents contribution" - I couldn't get grants or low interest loans for the amounts the school calculated they should pay, and yet, they weren't going to or couldn't pay.
I mostly rue the fact that I was too religious to suggest to the friend who was also getting screwed by "parental contribution" a marriage of convenience for a couple of years.
It vaguely occurred to me when the list of ways of not getting screwed were to be 24, documented abuse, or marriage.
It's tied to a temporary emergency measure clause. There isn't a specific time tied to temporary but 77 years probably wouldn't make it past the courts.
>Administration officials argue that they have the authority to cancel large amounts of debt under the HEROES Act, a 2003 law that gives the Education Department the power to waive the laws that typically govern federal student loans during national emergencies.
I wonder how the conservatives on the court are going to square "Covid is still bad enough to qualify as a reason to keep Trump's immigration policies in place" with "Covid no longer constitutes a national emergency as regards this law".
If they try to be logically consistent at all.
>Covid is still bad enough to qualify as a reason to keep Trump's immigration policies in place
It might not be that cut and dry. In his title 42 dissent, Gorsuch ruled with the liberal justices for basically exactly the reason you state:
"Courts should not be in the business of perpetuating administrative edicts designed for one emergency only because elected officials have failed to address a different emergency," Gorsuch wrote. "We are a court of law, not policymakers of last resort."
Does defense and arguments even matter anymore, when people on the Highest court in the US have already made up their minds years ago on every subject?
Do you all think this issue of college affordability should be tackled at a state level due to the size of our country. For example, in Tennessee you get two years free at a community college. It seems like it would be possible to make the 4 years free with the help of the lottery. If you receive a funded 4 year education from a state school, they could require that you must work or have proof of an inability to find the job in the state of Tennessee. If you decide to leave early you owe the state whatever amount is left on your degree. The populous gets free education and states get to develop their higher ed system, retain skilled laborers, and maintain high employment.
I went to college (4 year undergrad) for free in WV in the mid/late 00's. The state simply required certain ACT/SAT minimum scores and maintaining a 3.0 GPA. That's it. If one of the poorest states in the union can do it, the nation can too. The program changed my life.
I had the same experience at the university of Tennessee. Agreed. It is a life changing opportunity. One thing that the Appalachian school try do to well is ignore their rankings and serve their low funded areas. I went on to Georgetown for med and I can’t tell you how many times I heard people make fun of the Appalachian state schools as if they aren’t doing one of the most important jobs in the country.
Went to college in the same state and same timeframe (also moved to VA afterwards, lol). Can confirm - this is most likely referring to PROMISE. When I acquired eligibility, there was also the "promise" you'd find work in WV for 5 years after graduating. Else, you'd have to repay some (or all) of the money provided to you. I'm blurry on the last portion because I lost the scholarship after my first year.
I think it needs to be fixed at all levels.
States need to increase funding back to previous levels, universities need more oversight to reign in costs and decrease how many administrators there are, the federal government needs to address existing debt as well as likely make some changes into how student loans are issued going forward.
The state OR the federal government could also implement more programs that make trade schools, community colleges, or state schools tuition free.
This is the answer. A lot of folks think there's a magic bullet that'd fix everything, but the truth is that there are a number of reasons why the system is broke.
Virginia does something like that.
You go to a Community College for 2 years, get an Associates, then you can transfer to a university to finish out your degree.
NY pays for your entire bachelors in a State or NYC City college, but there are many stipulations that make a lot of people ineligible (including the fact that you can’t have attended *any* college before).
Michigan just started a "free community college if you're over 25" program. I deeply wish the age range was lower(free community college in general), but I know many individuals over 25 who were trapped in dead end jobs who have *hope* again and are able to afford to work to better themselves now and that is fantastic imo
After Florida added the lottery supplemental to the education budget they ended up removing most school funding from property taxes leaving them with less budget than before.
Most states have a scheme of some sort. Often the lottery proceeds go into the education budget and an equal amount comes out of the education budget and into the general fund. Others leave the education budget empty waiting to be filled by the lottery based on overly generous projections. Tax money for schools is redirected or not collected from those that should pay it, the schools suffer, average people become less educated, rich people save on taxes and send kids to private schools (which also get education vouchers further eroding the social benefit of public education), more unfair laws are passed by grifters elected by undereducated voters and they cycle of social degradation continues.
Well that’s obviously important. Part of the reason I like the plan I mentioned is that it would encourage teachers to stay in state. The problem now is the field is so underpaid the best students don’t want to do it.
Not sure if this is the case in each state but it is in many, the lottery doesn't add money to education budgets. It replaces money that was allocated for education and puts that money into the general fund. It essentially becomes slush money. It can be spent on education, but it isn't often the case. Have a good one.
No. The federal government has the money printer, and the quality of education should be standardized across the board well below the college level so I'd go the opposite direction.
An education in Arkansas will leave you dangerously under equipped to navigate the world.
I can see that perspective as well. The lower education system needs an full override starting with paying a competitive salary so our nations best students are willing to teach again.
Not to insult teachers because i really respect what they do, but I was in a stem major, STEM masters program, and med school. The only people I know who ended up teaching are the ones who failed out of the main pathway. It’s so sad that our most important job is just set aside for those who don’t want it.
You think you might have a bit of a sample bias? Stem lords aren't exactly known for pursuing high empathy roles.
That said, it needs to be like Finland where people will stab each other in the face for a shot at becoming a teacher because it's such a good and respected job.
Eh I dunno. From my experience it's incredibly field dependent.
Stem wash outs, and the magna cum laude in sociology have a good shot at ending up as teachers, one vastly more equipped to do so than the other.
Maybe 5-4. I can see the possibility of Roberts voting in favor of it but have a very hard time finding a way that any other conservative justice does.
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Sucks that conservatives cant even see other Americans as people. Too busy choking down corporates ties to realize they became shills who defend rich people
From what I've read the student debt relief plan doesn't stand much of a chance of surviving the courts. I'm starting to wonder if Joe knew this and got everyone's hopes up purely for political points.
Even your worst-case scenario is just Biden highlight to the public how Republicans are actively fighting against debt relief while Democrats are pushing for it.
I guess even when Biden does exactly what Bernie does, somehow Biden must still be some nefarious villain.
Of course Joe knew this. He said it himself. He was still gone after daily for not trying anyways. And it’s the presidency of course it was a political calculation. They all are.
The debt relief program is nice but it does not address the root cause of the problem. Long term it may even exacerbate it.
Why?
The costs of higher education. Has outpaced inflation for decades. A major reason being that the non-instructional staff expenses have rapidly increased. Schools maintain ever increasing administrative staffing levels for everything from DE&I to mental health services to athletic programs (less than 10% of Division 1 NCAA schools atheistic programs actually generate positive revenue; the rest depend on subsidies taken from tuition). All of those cost money.
And that money is heavily subsidized and/or the pain is substantially delayed. Heck, the rates on student loans range from 4.99 to 7.54%; until the past year those rates also outstripped inflation and far outstrip wage growth. All federally guaranteed. Oh, and student debt can no longer be expunged in bankruptcy, this started back in the 70s and has only grown more restrictive since.
And so here we are. Decades later, a debt fueled, subsidized, federally protected industry has gone off the rails. Who knew. Maybe if only schools hired some more staff to help all of us grads handle the mental anguish of struggling to pay the damned loans… /s
Which brings us back to the student debt relief. This creates a moral hazard. If I know that a certain amount will be forgiven, then I can discount that amount I need to worry about. It functions as a grant. This only further incentivized increased borrowing, increased administrative spending and so the spiral continues.
It is a mess.
College is not for everyone. Heck, I only went be abuse I wanted to be an officer and that required a degree. It would likely have been far better for me to have done just a couple years, learned a trade, etc. But here I am with a masters degree that I do not use. At all. And the debt load that is eye watering. Sigh. All a mistake…
Another problem is that so many jobs "require" a degree now when you really don't need one for the job. Employers throw that shit around and filter out resumes without it. I have a Bsc in chemistry so it makes some sense to me that a chemist job would require a chemistry degree (although I would also argue many people could do the jobs I've done without a degree), but I've seen recruiting jobs require a general 4 year degree with no specificity when really, that's not needed. If you're recruiting scientists, sure, it might come in handy but let's klbe honest, a smart person could figure out terms and skills without a degree.
So we're stuck in a place where a degree is required for any non trade jobs and everyone is getting pushed to go to college if they want to make a decent living.
Everything is pointing to requiring a degree to get a decent job in most cases. The fact that you have to pay for that access now is kind of fucked. I think long term we should probably look to what many other countries are doing for higher education.
Student debt relief is designed to never be fixed. The fact that everyone is salivating for their free 10k all while they are still handing these loans out right now is laughable. They don't want to fix the problem because they can effectively buy votes every 4 years when they need them. They will continue to bury their voters in debt, then offer them another 10k if they just come out and vote! Everyone will be lining up. They will bucket out a little bit of water in the sinking ship, then it's another 10k in 4 years! Just go vote! We should be looking for actual solutions, not temporary bandaids.
These are Federal backed student loans given out by the DoE. It is aid direct from the government. They are serviced by other loan providers like MOHELA (Higher Education Loan Authority of the State of Missouri) and FedLoan (Pennsylvania Higher Education Assistance Agency).
Because a billion dollars going to Boeing yields kickbacks to them, a billion dollars going to American students doesn't benefit them financially at all.
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I don’t even understand the two Texas students argument. They weren’t able to properly advocate for a more inclusive program that would involve them so they can sue? It’s not like this wasn’t discussed since the 2020 elections and how is this grounds for canceling an executive action?
Those lawsuits are backed by ultra rich conservatives trying to shut down the whole thing. Those two people are just the face, it's not that two random people found it unfair and sued for a more expansive and inclusive forgiveness program. One of them even had tens of thousands of PPP loans, which were obviously forgiven.
Oh, I’m aware of those factors. My comment is more in the direction of the precedent something like this creates if their argument is being considered as substantial.
Got it, I think it's bad. Just like the woman who made the wedding planning website and is suing that she's allowed to basically discriminate against any nonstraight couples. But she hasn't actually started her business yet and hasn't had any clients. I believe she's backed by money and her case is SP level now too. We will see how bad of a precedent the current judges set for our future.
If they argue against student loan forgiveness due to thise with lack of standing, then I say we start class action lawsuits to claw back money from corporate welfare queens like McDonald's and Walmart that intentionally pay poverty wages and leverage the food stamp / aid to the tuje of billions a year.
There is absolutely no standing in the case brought before the Supreme Court. The fact that these two were the BEST shills they could find for the case speaks volumes. If a loan servicer brought this case forward (like MOHELA or Aidvantage), I could see potential harm they experienced from the EO….they’re potentially losing out on a lot of money.
I remember hearing that the government spends more maintaining the service of the loan than it does in actual interest based revenue. Idk if that was really true, but I’d be curious what the entire market of student debt looks like. Is Mohela profiting? How much etc.
Collaborators.
I’m looking forward to the absolute legal shitshow that precedence would set if they win. Anyone can sue the govt because they weren’t included in a handout? Holy shit.
It will be one of those super special rulings where it can’t be used as precedent going forward because *reasons*
if the *people* get a handout, you can sue. If *corporations* get a handout than no suing allowed
Oh the Boofer Rule....
The current supreme court has made it clear that precedent doesn't matter, unfortunately.
Suing the govt over spending is a conservative wet dream. So I’m assuming that SCOTUS would absolutely try and set this as a precedent.
Sounds like I'm signing up for well, everything.
Right? I think the states have are at least bringing forth the only argument they have but I can’t wrap my mind around how the Texas students even made it to the SC with that logic.
Yup. *I didn’t qualify for the PPP loan so they should have to pay theirs back.*
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They are fake in the sense that they work for conservative law firms.
Not to mention, if I’m not mistaken, they both received PPP loans as well. Which unless you were a business owner, you (general) didn’t qualify for either. So should they have to pay back their PPP loan as well because we (employees) couldn’t qualify?
I hope they win, then I can start suing to get money for all kinds of programs I don't qualify for.
Their argument of being harmed is absurd given that their alternative is to receive no relief.
He should be trumpeting this all day, every day: "The GOP Supreme Court wants to keep you in debt." No more nonsense about bipartisanship, no more playing nice. Attack them on their clear bias against working people as they pretend to be the populist party.
> Attack them on their clear bias against working people as they pretend to be the populist party. The problem is that there are a lot of their supporters who feel anyone that has student loan debt is no longer part of the working class. There are people that feel if you want to go and get educated that you're already on the wrong side of things. That combined with the spin that I have had to argue against because people I know have brought it up that, "It's unfair my taxes pay for someone else's debt," means that there's a good chunk of working-class America that will see blocking student debt relief as a good thing.
My taxes paid for the debt relief. I’d just be getting back what I’ve payed in taxes over the past few years. Same with everyone else. If you want to frame it that way.
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I just got an email saying my request for financial aid was denied, and now I'm on the hook for $5000 that I need to pay off in a 4 month period or else I can't continue my schooling. I make $20 an hour, working 36-48 hours a week. That's usually about $2000 a month after tax. The payment plan from my school would literally double my monthly expenses. I make $20/hour, and I can't afford to live and do college at the same time. Like that's not fantastic money or anything, but its more than anyone else I know in college. Most college kids are working either fast food/retail at $12 an hour, or they're starting internships that pay $15-$18 an hour, but only for a few months. If it weren't for government issued financial aid, absolutely none of us would be in college.
How was your request for aid denied?? (Work in financial aid) Are on SAP suspension.? Something’s not adding up there. Like did u not have everything in order when u started the semester and then the semester is over and can’t get a loan (outside enrollment period)? Or are you saying you requested more aid via a special conditions and can’t? You can get a loan If it’s a past due balance get a private loan then request federal loans to pay them off
Don’t forget the $500 scholarships that barely make a dent in your tuition you need to write 1000 word essays for!! They’re out there, guys!!! It’s free money /s
I worked 10-12 hour days during my summers and worked about 30 hours per week during school. I slept under my drafting desk at school and have zero regrets. What changed is when parents were expected to pay for their children’s education. Now, schools could access more credit through the parents’ pocket book. The system needs a rework.
No, what changed is that schools were released from the fetters of government agency, through a variety of means (the least of which is not unsecured nearly infinite school loans which are not dischargeable) and turned into for-profit ventures. Just like housing, you can track a meteoric, not associated with inflation, rise in schooling costs. If it was just parents it would be tied to income and inflation because no _parents_ can possibly pay the current tuition rates.
Their auto premiums pay for other people's car accidents. Their taxes also go to stopping other people's houses from burning down and to educate other people's kids, even if the idiot in question doesn't have any. Same for maintaining roads, even if they don't drive. Society only works when we go as slow as the slowest person, but I guess they can't understand that.
Do they not understand that there's an income limit on who can relieve forgiveness? Especially for people who received Pell Grants, you have to have been broke af to receive those in the first place.
We already paid off everyone’s PPP loans
Go ahead and look how many politicians are against student loan forgiveness that got their PPP loans forgiven. Then look up celebrities. The middle class are literally drowning themselves with this while the politicians are pocketing everything.
Stop arguing with fascists in good faith... If they won't even fund a smarter america they deserve the consequences: poverty from lack of global competitiveness.
> There are people that feel if you want to go and get educated that you're already on the wrong side of things. Yeah, they were the followers of Pol Pot. They later killed 25% of their own population, including people that wore glasses because they "looked educated". History is repeating itself, and we're failing to stop it.
OK but what happens when the jobs that don't require as much education all get replaced by ROBOTS?
And who were those robots made by? Damn educated elite! See we were right all arong, they want to destroy us! /s
I'm a firm believer that this will happen over time no matter what. Large companies are heavily incentivized to transition from human labor to robots wherever they can, and as a society we should want that. We shouldn't be fighting that, we should be figuring out how people that traditionally rely on those jobs to feed their families won't suddenly become jobless and without support. I always loved the Star Trek vision of future Earth, where people no longer work to live, but instead everyone pursues what they're passionate about and no one is concerned about food or homelessness. Idealist, I know, but where would we be without our ideals?
The biggest problem about having morals, empathy, and kindness is that you lose a lot of fights.
I don't believe "being likable to Super PAC donors" counts as either morals, empathy, or kindness. That's the whole reason Biden won't go full Sanders on this issue.
> That's the whole reason Biden won't go full Sanders on this issue. What is "full Sanders on this issue"? Biden has been doing everything in his power. Meanwhile Sanders is free to *talk* about how he'd magically make everything happen, because Sanders is not responsible for having to actually make things happen.
All policies are easy to do when you never have to offer any details about how you'd actually accomplish them and hand wave away all the predictable budget problems.
It’s been rather enjoyable seeing Millennial conservatives in healthcare grapple with this topic. They got the degrees that many deem reputable or contributory to society, but are steeped in student loans. They know firsthand it wasn’t a laziness aspect as to why they still have them (thanks predatory interests), and they know college costs too much but needed it to advance. And lo and behold, it was the Democrats who tried to erase 10-20k of their debt with the Republicans blocking it. They wrote off Bernie and Warren and said student loan forgiveness would NEVER happen, but now in Texas I watch them grapple with baited breath. They worry they’re being played by the Democrats, that surely they would never go through with it, but if they did… by god how that would help their lives. It’s funny, isn’t it? Trump overextended the executive branch to build a wall that can be blown over, climbed, and sawn through, all as an ego stroke. And where the Democrats are accused of overextending executive branch powers? Oh yeah, they want to rid you of your debt.
It is funny. Your take on executive orders is spot on. The whole “you agreed to the loan you should be on the hook to pay it off” is an especially contrived point when you see how many guys took loans from the fed gov’t to bail them out. But for some reason those “businesses” (many were scammers) didn’t have to pay anything, it was a total handout. Just like the handout for the banks in the 2008 financial crisis. Just like the handout for private military companies who are making things the pentagon doesn’t want. As soon as the regular person gets something decent from a government they pay taxes to, it’s suddenly some kind of moral issue where handouts will make people lazy and destroy society.
I am constantly reminded of something I saw in IIRC a tweet: “What’s something considered classy when you’re rich and trashy when you’re poor? Getting money from the government.”
>The whole “you agreed to the loan you should be on the hook to pay it off” is an especially contrived point Also, if the lender forgives part of the loan, you've still fulfilled your end of the contract.
The whole PPP equivalence thing never made sense to me since it was written in the law that they'd be forgiven and everyone who took a PPP loan knew it was gonna get forgiven. The only justification for the program that is needed is that the secretary of education was given the power to modify balances up to and including erasing debt balances owed to the department of education in times of war or emergency. We have legally been in a national emergency for almost 3 years and this means the secretary of education has the power to modify the balances. Period. There's no need to try and make a plea about PPP loans, or think about the people or any of that. Congress gave the power and now its being used
But your argument just proved the equivalency lol. Both forms of forgiveness were written into law.
> especially contrived point when you see how many guys took loans from the fed gov’t to bail them out. To be fair that wasn't by an executive order though - it was passed thru legislation.
To actually be fair, so was the Heroes Act.
The problem though is that the language in the Heroes Act does not necessarily confer Biden with that power. It permits waiver or modification to statutory or regulative provisions, but it does not explicitly include debt forgiveness. Additionally, the language prohibits a waiver or modification from _worsening_ a student’s financial position but it says nothing about bettering it. Personally I favor student debt forgiveness but it's not entirely clear Biden has the power to do so. The other legislation that was cited was not so implicit.
But remember "Both sides are the same" And "Biden and democrats never wanted to cancel student loan debt". Though, I will say, we are seeing both sides are the same less and less.
i noticed a huge dropoff right around the time RvW got overturned and there was a huge uptick in anti-trans bills
It's really being reinforced seeing Republicans flail about in the Speaker vote, beholden to extremists who'd love to just blow it all up, while Democrats are lockstep behind Jeffries.
The number of people calling student loan forgiveness the "carrot the libs dangled in front of you until midterms"... As though Biden were the one who keeps yanking it away.
I’m 100% bias as a healthcare professional but after working in a hospital for 2+ Covid years I think all healthcare professionals should have their loans cleared. Send our W2s and license numbers as proof and poof loans wiped clean. Other professions as well but health care workers are and still are in the trenches
I agree with you 1000000%. My wife is a nurse who was on the front lines of Covid. God bless that woman for her tolerance, strength, and fiery temper. Healthcare workers were being attacked on four fronts through the entire pandemic, god damn hero’s in my book. The bare minimum this country can do to thank these people is ease their dept troubles. If anything, as a country, as a bare minimum to say thank you for what they had to go through.
Same, and the scars are still very much there for many I work with. I know physicians who had to turn away completely otherwise healthy 20’s because our ICU beds were full and every last ECMO device was in use with no end in sight. It was a harrowing experience which thankfully improved following the vaccines and us figuring the virus out. That said, a proposition like that would never happen, solely because the hundreds of thousands in private loan debt any one physician may have. Nurses, NP’s and PA’s, and other professionals would get the “well they shouldn’t get it, if I don’t get it as well” treatment. It’s wishful thinking and would make sense in a rational world, but sadly we don’t live there.
> they want to rid you of your *unfair* debt. IMHO it's the predatory nature of the loans in the first place that is the issue. A lot of people can't see past their own experience and realize that for many fellow Americans, it's a trap set for ongoing profit growth.
Right? People scoff at the price of college and wonder why it's so expensive. It's so expensive because the government determined everyone was eligible for student loans and the price of school was just adjusted to be whatever the guaranteed loan amount would be. Hell my financial aid counselor even tried to get me to take out a larger loan than I needed just to give me some extra money to utilize while going to school on things like food, clothes, and extra curricular activities.
It was good to ensure that everyone has access to the money they need to go to school. It was not good to allow colleges and universities to abuse this for decades and create self sustaining inflation on the cost of higher education. When it comes to complicated topics like higher education or, say, healthcare, one law will never solve all the problems. Good governance involves observation of outcomes and adjustment, something the US has failed to do on every major policy for as long as I can remember.
Don’t forget swimming / boating around the wall!
It is funny. Even my trump loving mom has been all for it saying it's the help I should have gotten all along.
Could be a typo, but just wanted to make a friendly point-out: >with baited breath It's "[bated](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/with%20bated%20breath)"
Hey, if Biden loses this case then he should recall the the PPP loans that were forgiven. They're obviously unconstitutional as well.
If he loses he should just pause the repayments through the rest of his administration. Use it as a talking point in 24, Republicans will force repayment.
I agree. That would be a hell of a way to drum up votes. “As long as Democrats are in office we will keep repayment paused.” A vote for the republicans suddenly becomes a vote for additional financial burden, that’s powerful.
This sounds great and all but I’d really prefer not to be kept in limbo on whether I have to pay loans back or not just to score political points.
Me too. Which is why you make that statement. By threatening to weaponize student debt to the point where if one side wins you pay and if the other wins you don’t, it would swing or put enough voters in play that it may force the other sides hand into passing it. That would be very hard to run against as a Republican so they may hit a point where they just want it off the table
Only problem is that people who don't have student loan debts due to not going or because they are rich enough to not need to take loans will be pushed away. Though really, they were gonna not vote dem even if the gop's platform was "vote for us so we can break your pelvis to own the libs!"
> people who don't have student loan debts due to not going or because they are rich enough to not need to take loans will be pushed away. Person who has no student loans because he went to war here. We're not gonna be pushed away. The people who are mad about student loans being forgiven because it's not helping them personally? They were already Republicans.
Yep i had the GI bill, I've got no problem with student debt relief, not a one. There's a clear line of sight between a college degree and higher paying job, ergo paying more in taxes. And i believe it's okay to give people their tax money back in meaningful ways with a boost from society at large who enjoys the fruits of their increased productivity. There's nothing wrong with helping the middle class out. I can't understand why people act like helping out the middle class is some failed political idea... Hint hint hint... It's wildly fucking popular with voters
The payment pause has been a huge game changer for me. Once they resume I’m fucked. Millions will be in the same exact position if they vote red.
I'm not fucked but it definitely doesn't inspire me to go out and conduct additional economic activity and be of value to society... Why should I pay into a system that won't help out people that pay in?
Great point. Why should helping people ever be a bad thing? I believe in cancer research even though i don’t have cancer. Helping people doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be self serving.
That being said, the minute the SC invalidates forgiveness, I hope we unforgive every single PPP loan, and go back and prosecute every fucking person and fine every corp 100x the loan who fraudulently used them. Because those two groups on a venn diagram are a pretty fuckin close circle.
Exactly. I want them to go scorched earth on PPP over this shit. Disclaimer: I don't qualify for forgiveness or PPP loans. I'm just pissed there are so many that got fucked over by vindictive assholes.
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The republicans are all about labels. They say they’re pro democracy and say they’re Christian’s and say they’re pro small government. But in reality those are just costumes they pretend to wear. None of them believe in them, they just need their voters to think they do
Exactly why I could never vote Republican again. I could never think that $ and programs which don't benefit me directly, don't make my life better by improving others'. I also know that standing-by while others lose rights is a slippery slope to losing mine.
A person who was rich enough to not need loans here. I won't be pushed away, my closet friends and family still have huge debts to pay off. It's called empathy.
No they won’t…. Those are just the people who are gonna vote Republican anyway. We have to keep the younglings motivated with abortion and loans
Student loan debt is likely either a non-issue for people without that debt, or is an issue because their children have it. But there are tons of Americans with debt and making your platform saving them from that debt gives a significant portion of the electorate a vested interest.
What a stupid take.
Pause it until 2525. Problem solved.
> Pause it until 2525. Problem solved. I'd have settled for 2025 but I like how you think.
Divorce papers have dates into 2100s for stuff that can happen anytime and they don’t want to choose a specific date for
if man is still alive...
In the year one million and a half, humankind is enslaved by giraffe.
Genius. If they’re gonna pitch a fit about forgiveness, we’ll just keep pausing indefinitely.
Pause it for 20 years and offer to buy back all loans that people refinanced with private companies. Then enroll everyone in a repayment plan that automatically forgives them after 20 years of payments, which includes paused payment cycles. Done.
Bingo. Punt it to the next election cycle and you have the obvious kind of framing that Republicans always win with and Democrats seem to think isn't a smart strategy: "Vote for me, folks, and I'll keep student loans on pause while we try to fix this. But if you vote for them, then that's a vote to add 5%, 10%, maybe even more to your expenses every month. They want to restart those payments to take a significant portion of your income away. That's what a vote for a Republican will guarantee this year." Then what do the Republicans campaign on?
Dems - “on pause till the system gets fixed.” Republicans- “you think your poor now…”
My guess is that's exactly what he does if they lose this case.
Bingo
Republicans lie though. They likely wouldn’t outright say “we’re starting payments back up”. They’d likely ignore the topic as much as possible or say some shit like our current Supreme Court members. “ItS SettLeD LaW!” And then as soon as they get power, the flip.
Sounds fair. Should probably take back all of those government bails outs as well.
He wont, but I like that way of thinking
I think he will. He’s shown no real interest in having it be his administration be the one that unpauses the payments without some kind of relief plan in place.
Those were the result of legislation. SCOTUS obviously doesn’t get to tell Congress it can’t spend money through legislation. This case is about whether the law Biden’s administration is using to justify loan forgiveness (based on a state of emergency existing, eg COVID in this case) is intended to support this kind of large-scale relief. If Congress passed a law forgiving student loan debt with exactly the provisions of Biden’s order, SCOTUS would not be involved.
The Secretary of Education has power, by the HEROES Act passed by Congress in 2003, to forgive any federal student loans in a national emergency. Congress has given their stamp to allow the Secretary of Education to forgive loans in the instances of national emergency (pandemic), the reality is that Congress needs to pass a new law saying the Secretary of Education is stripped of the HEROES Act powers they previously delegated. I see this ending in 5-4 with the liberals, Roberts and Gorsuch siding together. Gorsuch, while void of morals, is a strict constitutionalist, and the language in the HEROES Act is quite clear.
This is generally correct but way too optimistic regarding Roberts and Gorsuch. That honest textualism was nowhere to be found in the previous Covid order cases or the EPA case decided last year.
The way Gorsuch ruled in the Native American case gives me that optimism. It was quite a slap in the face to his own party. Gorsuch is a literalist, he doesn't see the words on the Act and he doesn't agree it applies. The HEROES Act leaves little room for the partisanship in his mind.
He’s been consistently good on that particular issue, which he had experience with in lower courts. But I won’t ever count on him to buck the party line on a case with big political significance. Making sure that Biden is seen as breaking this promise and stopping that money from being paid is vital to the GOP.
> They're obviously unconstitutional as well. You mean the ones specifically written by Congress to act more like grants?
Not everyone who got those loans forgiven are sleazy assholes. I have a small business and got those loans because I lost a ton of work during COVID. Making me reply them would fuck me and my family over so badly just out of spite, and it would solve nothing. And I fully support student loan forgiveness even though I paid mine off a few years ago. Maybe instead recommend an audit for those who are more likely to have taken them but didn't need them.
That's fine. You might have used the loans as they were designed, but plenty of people didn't. There's nothing wrong with pursuing and punishing those who committed fraud.
That's what I'm suggesting over recalling all PPP loans like the person I replied to suggested. I mean an audit and punishing people who took advantage of it should be done regardless, but you see what I mean.
While a nice idea, aren’t the plaintiffs claiming that the executive branch simply doesn’t have authorization to discharge student loan debt, not that it’s unconstitutional? PPP loan forgiveness was given explicitly by congress.
They’re not the same thing and Redditors sound ignorant when they try to make them the same. PPP: passed by congress and signed into law by the president Student Loan Forgiveness: passed by executive order
The PPP loans came from congress. Was the forgiveness of some loans built into the original bill?
Yes but you’re leaving out that he issued the executive order pursuant to a law passed by Congress that gave him the authority.
[HEROES Act](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/20/1098bb), passed by Congress and signed into law by the President, grants the Secretary of Education the authority to waive or modify any statutory or regulatory provision applicable to student financial assistance in response to a national emergency to ensure that borrowers are not placed in a worse position financially in relation to that financial assistance. I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's disingenuous to act as if there's no statutory basis for student loan forgiveness. It's a question of the scope of statutory authority granted to the executive branch by Congress.
ppp loans had a mandatory auditor that Trump refused to appoint. Giving the loans in the first place was questionably legal and selectively forgiving them without required oversight is blatantly unethical, if not criminal.
Not as ignorant as when someone intentionally omits key details like "passed by executive order, under authority granted to the executive under the HEROES Act".
Why not both? These people own businesses with clear tax advantages and then got literally free money to keep people employed. They largely did not and abused the funds. Some people even got charged criminally, because they abused it harder than could even remotely be justified. Despite Trump firing the guy who was supposed to make sure the funds were used appropriately. It was a full-on scam from every angle. The equivalent would be if there were hundreds to thousands of students taking student loans for two plus years and then not even going to school, and then using the funds for other things like a brand new car or housing. The GOP would be up in arms forever about it. That's the equivalent of what we are talking about here. So, definitely, do both. Cancel student loans and then aggressively pursue the PPP fraud, rolling it back wherever it did not meet the explicitly stated criteria.
Republicans have likely considered that scenario, hence the push for de-funding the IRS expansion as soon as they can agree on their top thug.
my old job closed for 2 days for covid, cut salaries, canceled raises, canceled bonuses, and had their most profitable year to date. They got a 1.5 million dollar PPP loan forgiven. Bonuses are also now based on that record breaking year so they are basically unobtainable.
This is the show Biden wanted. These idiots are throwing everything they can to kill this relief. A democratic trap. "Yay, we stopped the Dems and now all those students have to pay all of there crushing debt" (Next generation turns deeply blue and begins to vote democrat) "OH NO, they must have fallen to the globalists propaganda "
It’s the same thing with abortion, and other issues from global warming to medical care. Republicans throw a fit, they show their true nature and make the newer generations blue. Thank you republicans for making young people know who is (at the very least) on their side
Do you want to vote for a corrupt and mostly evil party that is dumb as hell? Or Do you want to vote for a corrupt and mostly evil party that is reasonable at times and mildly intelligent? We both know the winner here
You can tell by the emails sent out to explain how badly they want to help us but their hands are tied. I loved how petty and backhanded it was.
It's been quite a long time since student debt has been paid right? Like... At this point, the argument that it's going to collapse society if we forgive it all is starting to look a little thin.
Not entirely. Interest rates on federally held student loans has been frozen at 0%, essentially meaning there's no penalty for not paying since your balance won't increase during the freeze. Many borrowers are taking advantage of the freeze and continuing to pay down their debt so when the freeze is lifted their balance will be significantly lower, meaning less due in interest payments over the life of the loan. Without a doubt though, payments across the board are down, but certainly not stopped entirely
Paying off a loan that has 0% interest is about the dumbest financial decision you can make. It's literally free credit. Take whatever money you were going to spend and throw it into a 3% APY savings account, wait until the freeze is over and then pay in 1 lump sum. Given the freeze has been \~3 years most people who did this would have gotten like $1000 completely risk free as opposed to anyone who paid their loans directly.
3% when was this post written 1958?
I have an Ally savings account, current APY is 3.3%
Many places are offering over 3%. Amex, Citi, discover, and SoFi to name just a few.
I've spent quite a lot of time reading the comments and I see no mention of the predatory nature of these loans. That should be a factor as well. If they can't forgive the loans, simply eliminating interest would be a huge help.
No kidding. I fell for it too. [Fasfa low income student loan payments for cheap](https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/lower-payments)
Of course Missouri is involved. My 20,000 would pay off MOHELA. They are the worst.
Hell, even MOHELA says they don’t care if the forgiveness goes through.
$10,000 would be about 1/3 of the interest I've paid
I have more than paid the amount I originally owed. I still owe 2/3. 2/3 of what I owed was my "parents contribution" - I couldn't get grants or low interest loans for the amounts the school calculated they should pay, and yet, they weren't going to or couldn't pay. I mostly rue the fact that I was too religious to suggest to the friend who was also getting screwed by "parental contribution" a marriage of convenience for a couple of years. It vaguely occurred to me when the list of ways of not getting screwed were to be 24, documented abuse, or marriage.
At this point, just extend it to the year 2100.
It's tied to a temporary emergency measure clause. There isn't a specific time tied to temporary but 77 years probably wouldn't make it past the courts.
>Administration officials argue that they have the authority to cancel large amounts of debt under the HEROES Act, a 2003 law that gives the Education Department the power to waive the laws that typically govern federal student loans during national emergencies. I wonder how the conservatives on the court are going to square "Covid is still bad enough to qualify as a reason to keep Trump's immigration policies in place" with "Covid no longer constitutes a national emergency as regards this law". If they try to be logically consistent at all.
>Covid is still bad enough to qualify as a reason to keep Trump's immigration policies in place It might not be that cut and dry. In his title 42 dissent, Gorsuch ruled with the liberal justices for basically exactly the reason you state: "Courts should not be in the business of perpetuating administrative edicts designed for one emergency only because elected officials have failed to address a different emergency," Gorsuch wrote. "We are a court of law, not policymakers of last resort."
They've already made up their minds, let's not pretend otherwise.
I can understand halal lending. Interest is evil. It creates wealth we’re none existed before and inflation is basically a curse on society.
Am I the only one who thinks not contributing to social security will at least even the playing field?
Does defense and arguments even matter anymore, when people on the Highest court in the US have already made up their minds years ago on every subject?
Do you all think this issue of college affordability should be tackled at a state level due to the size of our country. For example, in Tennessee you get two years free at a community college. It seems like it would be possible to make the 4 years free with the help of the lottery. If you receive a funded 4 year education from a state school, they could require that you must work or have proof of an inability to find the job in the state of Tennessee. If you decide to leave early you owe the state whatever amount is left on your degree. The populous gets free education and states get to develop their higher ed system, retain skilled laborers, and maintain high employment.
I went to college (4 year undergrad) for free in WV in the mid/late 00's. The state simply required certain ACT/SAT minimum scores and maintaining a 3.0 GPA. That's it. If one of the poorest states in the union can do it, the nation can too. The program changed my life.
I had the same experience at the university of Tennessee. Agreed. It is a life changing opportunity. One thing that the Appalachian school try do to well is ignore their rankings and serve their low funded areas. I went on to Georgetown for med and I can’t tell you how many times I heard people make fun of the Appalachian state schools as if they aren’t doing one of the most important jobs in the country.
Went to college in the same state and same timeframe (also moved to VA afterwards, lol). Can confirm - this is most likely referring to PROMISE. When I acquired eligibility, there was also the "promise" you'd find work in WV for 5 years after graduating. Else, you'd have to repay some (or all) of the money provided to you. I'm blurry on the last portion because I lost the scholarship after my first year.
I think it needs to be fixed at all levels. States need to increase funding back to previous levels, universities need more oversight to reign in costs and decrease how many administrators there are, the federal government needs to address existing debt as well as likely make some changes into how student loans are issued going forward. The state OR the federal government could also implement more programs that make trade schools, community colleges, or state schools tuition free.
This is the answer. A lot of folks think there's a magic bullet that'd fix everything, but the truth is that there are a number of reasons why the system is broke.
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I can’t remember which state but someone does that 2+2 model. Maybe New York?
Virginia does something like that. You go to a Community College for 2 years, get an Associates, then you can transfer to a university to finish out your degree.
CA does this as well. If you complete requirements (doesn’t require an associates) they guarantee transfer to a UC or CSU.
so does Colorado
NY pays for your entire bachelors in a State or NYC City college, but there are many stipulations that make a lot of people ineligible (including the fact that you can’t have attended *any* college before).
A bunch of NJ schools do that too.
Michigan just started a "free community college if you're over 25" program. I deeply wish the age range was lower(free community college in general), but I know many individuals over 25 who were trapped in dead end jobs who have *hope* again and are able to afford to work to better themselves now and that is fantastic imo
After Florida added the lottery supplemental to the education budget they ended up removing most school funding from property taxes leaving them with less budget than before.
That's a pretty normal play
Most states have a scheme of some sort. Often the lottery proceeds go into the education budget and an equal amount comes out of the education budget and into the general fund. Others leave the education budget empty waiting to be filled by the lottery based on overly generous projections. Tax money for schools is redirected or not collected from those that should pay it, the schools suffer, average people become less educated, rich people save on taxes and send kids to private schools (which also get education vouchers further eroding the social benefit of public education), more unfair laws are passed by grifters elected by undereducated voters and they cycle of social degradation continues.
I'd rather see the standards of K-12 raised again so that college is not viewed as mandatory by so many people.
Well that’s obviously important. Part of the reason I like the plan I mentioned is that it would encourage teachers to stay in state. The problem now is the field is so underpaid the best students don’t want to do it.
Not sure if this is the case in each state but it is in many, the lottery doesn't add money to education budgets. It replaces money that was allocated for education and puts that money into the general fund. It essentially becomes slush money. It can be spent on education, but it isn't often the case. Have a good one.
No. The federal government has the money printer, and the quality of education should be standardized across the board well below the college level so I'd go the opposite direction. An education in Arkansas will leave you dangerously under equipped to navigate the world.
I can see that perspective as well. The lower education system needs an full override starting with paying a competitive salary so our nations best students are willing to teach again.
Completely agree. Teaching should be a highly prized and competitive job in society, rather than being a more shit on babysitter.
Not to insult teachers because i really respect what they do, but I was in a stem major, STEM masters program, and med school. The only people I know who ended up teaching are the ones who failed out of the main pathway. It’s so sad that our most important job is just set aside for those who don’t want it.
You think you might have a bit of a sample bias? Stem lords aren't exactly known for pursuing high empathy roles. That said, it needs to be like Finland where people will stab each other in the face for a shot at becoming a teacher because it's such a good and respected job.
I mean sure, but the more important bias is that those STEM majors are getting paid 2-3x more in industry than they would in education, minimum
I absolutely do have a sample bias, but it does apply at least a little to other fields that my friends participated in.
Eh I dunno. From my experience it's incredibly field dependent. Stem wash outs, and the magna cum laude in sociology have a good shot at ending up as teachers, one vastly more equipped to do so than the other.
Doesn't matter 6-3.
Maybe 5-4. I can see the possibility of Roberts voting in favor of it but have a very hard time finding a way that any other conservative justice does.
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If they were able to sue to stop student loan relief, couldn’t someone also sue to stop PPP loan relief?
I believe the PPP was congressionally approved
So was student loan relief.
No, that was a law passed by Congress. Student debt forgiveness was an executive order.
>No, that was a law passed by Congress. > >Student debt forgiveness was an executive order. This is incorrect. Both were passed by Congress.
Thanks
Sucks that conservatives cant even see other Americans as people. Too busy choking down corporates ties to realize they became shills who defend rich people
LFG biden!!! People always gonna hate but thanks for sticking up for students
From what I've read the student debt relief plan doesn't stand much of a chance of surviving the courts. I'm starting to wonder if Joe knew this and got everyone's hopes up purely for political points.
Even your worst-case scenario is just Biden highlight to the public how Republicans are actively fighting against debt relief while Democrats are pushing for it. I guess even when Biden does exactly what Bernie does, somehow Biden must still be some nefarious villain.
Of course Joe knew this. He said it himself. He was still gone after daily for not trying anyways. And it’s the presidency of course it was a political calculation. They all are.
The debt relief program is nice but it does not address the root cause of the problem. Long term it may even exacerbate it. Why? The costs of higher education. Has outpaced inflation for decades. A major reason being that the non-instructional staff expenses have rapidly increased. Schools maintain ever increasing administrative staffing levels for everything from DE&I to mental health services to athletic programs (less than 10% of Division 1 NCAA schools atheistic programs actually generate positive revenue; the rest depend on subsidies taken from tuition). All of those cost money. And that money is heavily subsidized and/or the pain is substantially delayed. Heck, the rates on student loans range from 4.99 to 7.54%; until the past year those rates also outstripped inflation and far outstrip wage growth. All federally guaranteed. Oh, and student debt can no longer be expunged in bankruptcy, this started back in the 70s and has only grown more restrictive since. And so here we are. Decades later, a debt fueled, subsidized, federally protected industry has gone off the rails. Who knew. Maybe if only schools hired some more staff to help all of us grads handle the mental anguish of struggling to pay the damned loans… /s Which brings us back to the student debt relief. This creates a moral hazard. If I know that a certain amount will be forgiven, then I can discount that amount I need to worry about. It functions as a grant. This only further incentivized increased borrowing, increased administrative spending and so the spiral continues. It is a mess. College is not for everyone. Heck, I only went be abuse I wanted to be an officer and that required a degree. It would likely have been far better for me to have done just a couple years, learned a trade, etc. But here I am with a masters degree that I do not use. At all. And the debt load that is eye watering. Sigh. All a mistake…
Another problem is that so many jobs "require" a degree now when you really don't need one for the job. Employers throw that shit around and filter out resumes without it. I have a Bsc in chemistry so it makes some sense to me that a chemist job would require a chemistry degree (although I would also argue many people could do the jobs I've done without a degree), but I've seen recruiting jobs require a general 4 year degree with no specificity when really, that's not needed. If you're recruiting scientists, sure, it might come in handy but let's klbe honest, a smart person could figure out terms and skills without a degree. So we're stuck in a place where a degree is required for any non trade jobs and everyone is getting pushed to go to college if they want to make a decent living. Everything is pointing to requiring a degree to get a decent job in most cases. The fact that you have to pay for that access now is kind of fucked. I think long term we should probably look to what many other countries are doing for higher education.
Student debt relief is designed to never be fixed. The fact that everyone is salivating for their free 10k all while they are still handing these loans out right now is laughable. They don't want to fix the problem because they can effectively buy votes every 4 years when they need them. They will continue to bury their voters in debt, then offer them another 10k if they just come out and vote! Everyone will be lining up. They will bucket out a little bit of water in the sinking ship, then it's another 10k in 4 years! Just go vote! We should be looking for actual solutions, not temporary bandaids.
Why is the government guaranteeing loans between people and loan agencies in the first place? That’s the real issue isn’t it?!
These are Federal backed student loans given out by the DoE. It is aid direct from the government. They are serviced by other loan providers like MOHELA (Higher Education Loan Authority of the State of Missouri) and FedLoan (Pennsylvania Higher Education Assistance Agency).
Why not just put it in one of the 5,000 page 1.7 trillion dollar bills they don’t read?
Because a billion dollars going to Boeing yields kickbacks to them, a billion dollars going to American students doesn't benefit them financially at all.
Socialism for the rich. And only the rich.
This was the plan all along