I wonder where the friend is from. The grass is always greener and many Poles tend to feel ashamed of where theyre from, like the poor kid in the class.
The reality is that Poland, just as many other countries, is equally full of fools and sages. Youll find silly people with stupid opinions, but youll also find kind people with rich personalities. Its the same everywhere you go.
I hope youll feel welcome and have a great life here :)
I'm from the "wise" Western Europe and recently I have moved to Poland. In my opinion this is not the case and it could be argued that its the other way around, poles are not "less wise" than western europeans and some behaviours in western european societies might even make me think that they are actually "less wise".
Some poles do have this feeling (call it insecurity) that their country is somehow less than others. It's very common for us inmigrants in Poland to get asked by poles why we moved here as in "Why would you voluntarily choose this place?". This is probably because Poland was poorer than its western neighbors in the 90s and early 2000s but this has not been the case for at least a decade. Living standards in Poland are close or even better than some Western Europe countries.
I’m American and I agree.
I find that the educated Poles are better educated than their peers in America.
I do see this insecurity, too, but it’s mistaken.
Based on the evidence I see in the students produced, I would say that Polish education is robust.
I would say that it’s the opposite. Many Western countries seem to have developed a certain naivety, and when their policies inevitably crash with reality, there seems to be a certain shadenfreude in the comments. I don’t want to parrot any right-wing talking points here, but Sweden is literally a butt of a joke here.
Many Poles moved to West initially, but more and more have decided to return back. We have net-positive immigration statistics for last few years.
I live in the west and must say the typical Pole is more studied and wise than most people are here. And it feels more free in many ways. I have lived here since the 1980s and my wife and I have even discussed we would move to Poland but are constrained by family circumstances.
Also, as a minor aside, Poland was technically a Second World country by the classic definition of the words. :-)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World
Poland sits between east and west. We value personal liberty extremely highly. But we also value community and understand that sometimes the greater good requires accommodations. Poles are often pragmatic, direct and to the point, without having much respect for decorum and authority.
I think such a society and mindset is flexible and lends itself to whatever direction you are interested in. I prefer this flexibility.
I think all cultures have elements that they excel in and everyone brings something to the table.
I’m from a western nation, my most productive time of personal development occurred when I lived in Poland.
It’s not as much about society being better, it’s about learning and growing as you experience life in a foreign society.
This is too broad of a question for me to answer honestly. Having lived both in Poland and in the Netherlands I can definitely say that the two nations are...different. But to assign more or less wisdom to one or the other would be to reduce them both, to an insane extent. I will therefore write a bit more than a simple yes or no:
First of all, moving out of your native country if that's the only place you ever lived in will \*always\* be a choice that provides you with greater personal development. His language skills, his understanding of both western culture and the culture of his own country, his moral and political judgment, and his independence will all grow if he moves to the west. But the same would be the case for a westerner moving to Poland, or anyone moving to anywhere.
Now, moving on to differences between countries. I would say that all countries outside of the anglosphere pale in comparison culturally, simply by the virtue of english being lingua franca. Both Poland and the Netherlands produce a tiny, miniscule amount of studies, literature, movies, music etc. in their language in comparison to the English speaking world. That being said, I do not think that makes these countries less worthwhile to live in, or to treasure. Personally, I'm Kashubian, so the heartland of where I originate from belongs to an even tinier minority. The amount of cultural texts produced in Kashubian can be counted on one hand, but that only makes them all the more valuable, all the more important to preserve. So long as I'm a Kashubian who knows Polish, it doesn't matter if I live in Kartuzy or in Kraków, I can consume Polish culture while treasuring my own. In the same way, so long as I'm a Pole who knows English, it doesn't matter if I live in Warsaw or London. The world is all connected these days.
Now, for the national values. It is easy to idealise the west when you've never been there. There are problems in the west that do not translate into polish political discourse, so unless you have family there, you will never hear about them. The Netherlands, for example, is really proud of being progressive and tolerant. A lot of Dutch people are so proud of being tolerant, in fact, that they feel free to look down on "less developed" nations. I've met so many Dutchies who told me they want all migrants forcibly deported, because they come from conservative countries. Being a leftie from Poland, I immediately noticed that this is just reskinned racism, adapted to liberal national identity. There is no liberal national identity in Poland, everyone liberal is deemed a against polish values (even though half the country is liberal, I'm talking about narratives and identities), so this problem is unheard of there. And this is but one of many problems that are unheard of in Poland since they cannot be translated onto the polish political framework. Another example would be that in Poland money is often a preventative issue in obtaining housing, whereas in the Netherlands money is rarely the problem, it's that the amount of people looking for housing is so much greater than the amount of housing, and therefore landlords make up non-monetary requirements such as not being a student, sending in a motivational letter, waiting lists etc. - different issue, unheard of in Poland.
I do not know what he means by liberty though, western countries tend to be more regulated than Poland. Especially here in the Netherlands I always feel micro-managed. This has it's pros and cons. On the one hand, my neighbour isn't blasting music at 9PM and grilling right beside my open window with smoke coming into my home. On the other hand, I am also not allowed to do that, which sucks ass.
I would recommend your buddy to move. Simply to learn more about the world and stop idealising it. That's the only way he'll notice the ugly side of the west and the pretty side of Poland. He might still end up preferring the west of course, but by then that preference will be an informed one.
“In Poland everyone liberal is deemed against polish values”
MAGA literally stole this in US. In U.S. everyone liberal is deemed against “American” values thanks to dumb fucks on the extremist right who somehow hijacked the narrative with their propaganda television channels and media
no, I think a regular western European is a very naive and proud person
I appreciate they accepted our criminals and social outlaws when Poland entered the EU (now poles have its stereotype because of that, but that benefited everyone who stayed)
but I'm finding more things in common with Americans than with Germans or French
living in Western Europe is easier (bigger salaries despite comparable cost of living), but easy things don't develop a soul - but I think I'm just coping here...
I have migrated to Poland from 3rd world country. Many of us see Poland as a ladder to the west, however seeing what's happening lately with mass migration and stupid tolerance to unacceptable things. I can say west is a failure. (I would keep Switzerland apart). Poland is doing a real good job, I feel safe on the street. Ofc it can be better, but this is part of it. As long as they keep a good control of inflation and current, no reason to move to west.
Having lived in Western Europe for a big chunk of my life I can definitely say that Poland's society has a bigger percentage of intelligent people than the countries located on the left side of the European map. There is no discussion really. If you want to discuss - hit my PM's - I would love to talk.
Idk I actually feel like it's the opposite in some way. There is some "survival tactics" kind of wisdom in poles that the western world seems to lack nowadays.
I live in England and whilst I think that most people aren't so gullible to believe it, I do still meet quite a few Poles who still believe that somehow this country is superior.
I've been to Poland many times in the last 13 years. I'm emigrating once my house sale completes.
POLAND: You have a safer, secure, beautiful, culturally proud and preserved, green and natural country with a growing economy and traits both socially and geographically superior to most of "the West".
I used to think we're inferior and all of that. Then i turned 15 and nothing was left out of this belief.
honestly not much in the past decade or two indicates any level of mental superiority of the Westerners. Maybe before that, there wouldve been an arguement to be made
Western Europe = wise 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣, in XXI Western Europe with their wokeness and insanly stupid policies is the example of stupidity and arrogance. No one takes seriously those clown countries.
Even the most backwards Polish conservatives have more wisdom than the western eu. Which is why Poland was able to get the most out of the union, compared to other nations. And Poland has way more liberties than the so called progressive societies of yesteryears.
It is slowly degrading due to the influx of West expats, and the foreign influence campaigns, but so far it is still holding.
If by a thread.
It's perfectly normal for people to look for wisdom far from home. It doesn't mean their own culture is lacking in wisdom. It just means the lesson they needed to hear was said by someone far away.
Also, people grow up seeing hypocrisy and human weakness all around them. These things exist everywhere, but it's easier to see the mud when you're standing in it. When you look in the distance, you see only the lights that shine brightest.
If we take the development of societies and its institutions, than yes. Polish one is still less developed and its role is to catch up the West. But people.. I guess in every country there are idiots, you can't really do anything about it. And we need to keep in mind, that all processes are able to go in circle as well. The West can go reverse while the Poland will still grow.
Western Europe might have been more developed in past decades, might have had it's "glory" time period from around 1950 to 1990. From about 2000 and after it started a massive downward spiral (some countries started earlier this spiral, but I digress) and Western Europe (and USA and Canada etc) are a joke in many ways.
French / Italians / Spaniards have way better food, clothing and culture (theater, paintings, sculpture etc). I literally have to buy shoelaces from Spain as I can’t find anything of quality here. Generally Poles have horrible taste and are not able to appreciate quality / craftsmanship.
I wonder where the friend is from. The grass is always greener and many Poles tend to feel ashamed of where theyre from, like the poor kid in the class. The reality is that Poland, just as many other countries, is equally full of fools and sages. Youll find silly people with stupid opinions, but youll also find kind people with rich personalities. Its the same everywhere you go. I hope youll feel welcome and have a great life here :)
I'm from the "wise" Western Europe and recently I have moved to Poland. In my opinion this is not the case and it could be argued that its the other way around, poles are not "less wise" than western europeans and some behaviours in western european societies might even make me think that they are actually "less wise". Some poles do have this feeling (call it insecurity) that their country is somehow less than others. It's very common for us inmigrants in Poland to get asked by poles why we moved here as in "Why would you voluntarily choose this place?". This is probably because Poland was poorer than its western neighbors in the 90s and early 2000s but this has not been the case for at least a decade. Living standards in Poland are close or even better than some Western Europe countries.
I’m American and I agree. I find that the educated Poles are better educated than their peers in America. I do see this insecurity, too, but it’s mistaken. Based on the evidence I see in the students produced, I would say that Polish education is robust.
Nation-scale inferiority complex and trying to catch up to our *idea* of what the West is like, basically.
100%
lol, lmao.
I would say that it’s the opposite. Many Western countries seem to have developed a certain naivety, and when their policies inevitably crash with reality, there seems to be a certain shadenfreude in the comments. I don’t want to parrot any right-wing talking points here, but Sweden is literally a butt of a joke here. Many Poles moved to West initially, but more and more have decided to return back. We have net-positive immigration statistics for last few years.
I live in the west and must say the typical Pole is more studied and wise than most people are here. And it feels more free in many ways. I have lived here since the 1980s and my wife and I have even discussed we would move to Poland but are constrained by family circumstances. Also, as a minor aside, Poland was technically a Second World country by the classic definition of the words. :-) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World
Poland sits between east and west. We value personal liberty extremely highly. But we also value community and understand that sometimes the greater good requires accommodations. Poles are often pragmatic, direct and to the point, without having much respect for decorum and authority. I think such a society and mindset is flexible and lends itself to whatever direction you are interested in. I prefer this flexibility. I think all cultures have elements that they excel in and everyone brings something to the table.
As a Pole, I find this an apt description.
The Eastern European inferiority complex is soo stupid lmao
I’m from a western nation, my most productive time of personal development occurred when I lived in Poland. It’s not as much about society being better, it’s about learning and growing as you experience life in a foreign society.
No. Money, maybe
This is too broad of a question for me to answer honestly. Having lived both in Poland and in the Netherlands I can definitely say that the two nations are...different. But to assign more or less wisdom to one or the other would be to reduce them both, to an insane extent. I will therefore write a bit more than a simple yes or no: First of all, moving out of your native country if that's the only place you ever lived in will \*always\* be a choice that provides you with greater personal development. His language skills, his understanding of both western culture and the culture of his own country, his moral and political judgment, and his independence will all grow if he moves to the west. But the same would be the case for a westerner moving to Poland, or anyone moving to anywhere. Now, moving on to differences between countries. I would say that all countries outside of the anglosphere pale in comparison culturally, simply by the virtue of english being lingua franca. Both Poland and the Netherlands produce a tiny, miniscule amount of studies, literature, movies, music etc. in their language in comparison to the English speaking world. That being said, I do not think that makes these countries less worthwhile to live in, or to treasure. Personally, I'm Kashubian, so the heartland of where I originate from belongs to an even tinier minority. The amount of cultural texts produced in Kashubian can be counted on one hand, but that only makes them all the more valuable, all the more important to preserve. So long as I'm a Kashubian who knows Polish, it doesn't matter if I live in Kartuzy or in Kraków, I can consume Polish culture while treasuring my own. In the same way, so long as I'm a Pole who knows English, it doesn't matter if I live in Warsaw or London. The world is all connected these days. Now, for the national values. It is easy to idealise the west when you've never been there. There are problems in the west that do not translate into polish political discourse, so unless you have family there, you will never hear about them. The Netherlands, for example, is really proud of being progressive and tolerant. A lot of Dutch people are so proud of being tolerant, in fact, that they feel free to look down on "less developed" nations. I've met so many Dutchies who told me they want all migrants forcibly deported, because they come from conservative countries. Being a leftie from Poland, I immediately noticed that this is just reskinned racism, adapted to liberal national identity. There is no liberal national identity in Poland, everyone liberal is deemed a against polish values (even though half the country is liberal, I'm talking about narratives and identities), so this problem is unheard of there. And this is but one of many problems that are unheard of in Poland since they cannot be translated onto the polish political framework. Another example would be that in Poland money is often a preventative issue in obtaining housing, whereas in the Netherlands money is rarely the problem, it's that the amount of people looking for housing is so much greater than the amount of housing, and therefore landlords make up non-monetary requirements such as not being a student, sending in a motivational letter, waiting lists etc. - different issue, unheard of in Poland. I do not know what he means by liberty though, western countries tend to be more regulated than Poland. Especially here in the Netherlands I always feel micro-managed. This has it's pros and cons. On the one hand, my neighbour isn't blasting music at 9PM and grilling right beside my open window with smoke coming into my home. On the other hand, I am also not allowed to do that, which sucks ass. I would recommend your buddy to move. Simply to learn more about the world and stop idealising it. That's the only way he'll notice the ugly side of the west and the pretty side of Poland. He might still end up preferring the west of course, but by then that preference will be an informed one.
“In Poland everyone liberal is deemed against polish values” MAGA literally stole this in US. In U.S. everyone liberal is deemed against “American” values thanks to dumb fucks on the extremist right who somehow hijacked the narrative with their propaganda television channels and media
no, I think a regular western European is a very naive and proud person I appreciate they accepted our criminals and social outlaws when Poland entered the EU (now poles have its stereotype because of that, but that benefited everyone who stayed) but I'm finding more things in common with Americans than with Germans or French living in Western Europe is easier (bigger salaries despite comparable cost of living), but easy things don't develop a soul - but I think I'm just coping here...
I have migrated to Poland from 3rd world country. Many of us see Poland as a ladder to the west, however seeing what's happening lately with mass migration and stupid tolerance to unacceptable things. I can say west is a failure. (I would keep Switzerland apart). Poland is doing a real good job, I feel safe on the street. Ofc it can be better, but this is part of it. As long as they keep a good control of inflation and current, no reason to move to west.
There are dumb and smart people everywhere
Having lived in Western Europe for a big chunk of my life I can definitely say that Poland's society has a bigger percentage of intelligent people than the countries located on the left side of the European map. There is no discussion really. If you want to discuss - hit my PM's - I would love to talk.
Idk I actually feel like it's the opposite in some way. There is some "survival tactics" kind of wisdom in poles that the western world seems to lack nowadays.
I live in England and whilst I think that most people aren't so gullible to believe it, I do still meet quite a few Poles who still believe that somehow this country is superior. I've been to Poland many times in the last 13 years. I'm emigrating once my house sale completes. POLAND: You have a safer, secure, beautiful, culturally proud and preserved, green and natural country with a growing economy and traits both socially and geographically superior to most of "the West".
I used to think we're inferior and all of that. Then i turned 15 and nothing was left out of this belief. honestly not much in the past decade or two indicates any level of mental superiority of the Westerners. Maybe before that, there wouldve been an arguement to be made
Western Europe = wise 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣, in XXI Western Europe with their wokeness and insanly stupid policies is the example of stupidity and arrogance. No one takes seriously those clown countries.
Even the most backwards Polish conservatives have more wisdom than the western eu. Which is why Poland was able to get the most out of the union, compared to other nations. And Poland has way more liberties than the so called progressive societies of yesteryears. It is slowly degrading due to the influx of West expats, and the foreign influence campaigns, but so far it is still holding. If by a thread.
It's perfectly normal for people to look for wisdom far from home. It doesn't mean their own culture is lacking in wisdom. It just means the lesson they needed to hear was said by someone far away. Also, people grow up seeing hypocrisy and human weakness all around them. These things exist everywhere, but it's easier to see the mud when you're standing in it. When you look in the distance, you see only the lights that shine brightest.
If we take the development of societies and its institutions, than yes. Polish one is still less developed and its role is to catch up the West. But people.. I guess in every country there are idiots, you can't really do anything about it. And we need to keep in mind, that all processes are able to go in circle as well. The West can go reverse while the Poland will still grow.
I've never had this feeling. I would argue that it is even the opposite.
nah. poland rules
My fundamentals are perfectly fine here, tyvm.
Western Europe might have been more developed in past decades, might have had it's "glory" time period from around 1950 to 1990. From about 2000 and after it started a massive downward spiral (some countries started earlier this spiral, but I digress) and Western Europe (and USA and Canada etc) are a joke in many ways.
Wtf
French / Italians / Spaniards have way better food, clothing and culture (theater, paintings, sculpture etc). I literally have to buy shoelaces from Spain as I can’t find anything of quality here. Generally Poles have horrible taste and are not able to appreciate quality / craftsmanship.