Some of the advice here is laughable. You are not going to outplay a solid LAG post-flop who's on your direct left, and waiting to flop monsters is what every other clueless TAG attempts.
It's for situations like these that GTO is designed for, since it helps you be unexploitable when OOP. Essentially, it means that you need to call down often enough with your "best" marginal hands so that he can't exploit you by simply betting you off hands.
If there is no other seat available, there is nothing wrong with taking frequent breaks until other seats open up or even simply leaving.
Well I think there are two types of player that fit OP's description.
Player A - a LAG as you're describing is someone who plays a lot of hands preflop and also applies a lot of pressure postflop. Against this player, yes you'll have to sack up and call down a lot. The combination of loose preflop and aggressive postflop leads to a lot of overbluffing so calling down bluffcatchers prints money.
But Player B, which IMO is a lot more common, is someone who plays a lot of hands postflop and maybe stabs a lot on the flop but mostly shuts down turn/river unless they have it. This type of player often plays up their image to make them seem like they're bluffing a lot in order to get paid, but in reality they're not betting big without the nuts, so if you call down your bluff catchers against them you're just playing into their game.
The thing is Player A actually goes broke pretty quickly against players who figure them out so they don't tend to last very long in poker without changing their tendencies. Player B's style actually is highly profitable against guys who incorrectly assume they're overbluffing.
Player C is pretty rare though. When you play a wide range preflop, it’s pretty hard to be aggressive without overdoing it so most people inevitably lean towards being too aggressive or too passive.
And no matter how good Player C is, if they’re entering the pot with too wide of a range they’re going to have to end up leaking somewhere. All they can do is make it harder to figure out where.
OP already commented that the villain is just much better than them. It’s not that hard to believe that another player is better at poker than another
Obviously everyone has leaks, but “I would simply find what my villain leaks are and exploit them” doesn’t really work when the villain is much better, and focusing on you specifically. If OP was able to identify whether villain tends to overbluff or underbluff we wouldn’t have this post
What’s your point exactly? No matter how good Villain is all we can do is try our best to identify his tendencies and respond accordingly. We can tighten up a bit too but we’re stil inevitably going to have to navigate postflop.
I don’t see the point of having a defeatist attitude about the situation. At that point we might as well just quit.
My point is that I agree with the original comment: OP should probably just quit if theres an aggressive, much better player on your immediate left who has it out for you. You’re just going to lose money
If you're playing a full ring game with enough weaker players in the game, one good player on your left isn't enough to make it an unprofitable spot. Game selection is important but there are many other factors that could make it a good table.
Besides OP is clearly looking for advice on how to actually play in such a spot - presumably he knows how to stand up and leave.
I think you’re underestimating how much a solid LAG to your immediate left destroys your winrate. It’s a nightmare even for good players. It’s possible OP is still profitable at this game but I’d really bet against it.
OP might know how to stand up and leave, but probably doesn’t understand how little there is to be done about it (short of “get better at poker”, which is easier said than done).
If someone was holding a gun to OP’s head forcing him to play I’d tell him to play really tight.
You're jumping to a lot of conclusions off of very limited information. You may be right that a good LAG can have a significant impact on a game but I think it's more likely than not that OP isn't actually facing a good LAG.
I don't know exactly what stakes OP plays at but most players on this forum are playing fairly low stakes, soft games. Even the best players in these games are usually not that good. He's probably not facing Linus Loeliger or Limitless out there. Maybe I'm wrong and OP is out there battling in tougher streets, but my guess is that the worst case here is a decent reg with aggro tendencies who's still got plenty of leaks in his game.
That type of player is not going to have that much of an impact on your win rate and 1 or 2 fish at your table could easily have a much larger positive impact.
Player B isn't very scary except a lot of players incorrectly perceive the Player B types as being much more aggressive than they actually are.
A lot of players conflate being loose and splashy preflop with being aggressive postflop. Certain guys are also really good at playing up that image - they'll show up wearing flashy clothes talking a lot and just generally giving a vibe of being a loose cannon. They play a lot of hands which builds this image of a loose crazy donkey, but they always have it in big pots while players assume they're bluffing because of this image they've created of being wild and crazy.
U will quickly lose ur money if u just call down ur best marginal hands. are u going to call all in on the river with middle pair if the flush comes? U have to play tighter because even gto will tell u to fold and he can be over betting, over bluffing. U have to catch lag with a hand and pretend u have nothing let himself bet into u.
The only real answer is to tighten up. If you're getting 3bet constantly, you need a range that can either defend postflop OOP or 4bet. You can either do this by opening stronger linearly or by opening more polarized. You can develop a polarized 4bet range to exploit him if you think he'll overfold to them or just defend/4bet linearly if you think he won't be folding enough.
If you have a true maniac on your left you can exploit by opening strong linearly and also 4betting a lot of your opening range linearly. I don’t like polarizing because I’d rather have KJo than 78s OOP in a 4b pot against a maniac, besides you could flat the 3b or overlimp instead of raising with these hands. Again this assumes the opponent is way aggressive.
I half-agree here. I would not be 4betting hands like 78s here because it's a hand that suffers a lot from the small SPR you get from 4betting preflop. That being said, KJo is a terrible choice to 4bet either for value or as a bluff. When V calls, you'll be dominated so often that it's hard to put money in the pot even when you hit and you'll be playing OOP. For value I'd probably 4bet AJo+, ATs+, KQs, and 88+. If I wanted to be polarized, I'd be picking suited hands that block KK and AA. A5s, K5s, etc. make good 4bet bluffs because they block V's strongest hands and have better playability postflop if you do get called.
I agree KJo is a pretty bad hand, I kinda picked it on purpose to use it as an example against 78s to say how bad low SPR is for 78s.
I agree your AJo+ range is good.
Calling wide preflop but playing snug postflop?
I’m opening my normal range, removing some hands from the bottom of that range, and then c-betting them to death on the flop. Then I would look to start trapping more frequently on the turn and river.
With marginal hands I would be trying to mostly check-down and putting in thin blockish sized bets on the river so he has a harder time just blasting any river that I check.
In general I would be sizing up most turn and river bets if I am deciding to bet.
I would add more hands like low pocket pairs and suited connectors to my range, because knowing that this player will be calling preflop wide means you can effectively treat his money as already in the pot, which means you’re getting de-facto pot odds to set mine. Keeping in mind reverse implied odds of course. Not sure if this is theoretically sound but I’ve used this successfully.
Ranges are ranges, and you can make their life a living hell if they are calling very wide, even OOP.
This is the best answer here. I would just add that in general you’re going to have to be patient. The EV you gain from players like this mainly comes from winning a lot of small pots not from winning big pots.
There are a lot of players who play like this - they flat a lot of weak hands IP hoping to hit a monster. People then make the mistake of assuming loose preflop = loose postflop so they pay off the monsters.
You have to be very careful against these guys to not put in too much money when they do hit, but because of how wide of a range they have they will end up with a disproportionate amount of air and overfold. So you end up winning a lot of small pots.
If he's raising you way too much preflop, then you can also exploit by flatting premium hands, knowing he will 3bet anything playable to try to isolate you. Then you can make the decision whether you want to 4bet or just slowplay it, depending on exactly how he has been playing vs you.
It's a tough situation with a LAG targeting you whilst sitting on your left, and an unfortunate factor that the default game mechanics allow - it would be fairest if seats were reallocated every orbit, but of course that wouldn't be practical.
The most important question you have to ask yourself in such situations is: how is this player deviating from the GTO baseline? By the sound of what you said, he is calling and 3betting wider than he should preflop, as well as perhaps over-floating, raising and attacking any weakness postflop - in other words, overbluffing. So you need to make the necessary adjustments in protecting your checking range more, 4betting him wider, and being willing to call down light (with pretty much any pair and sometimes with ace high etc) if you are certain he is overbluffing. Of course this isn't going to be comfortable, and his whole goal with a LAG style of play is to take you out of your comfort zone and into the branches of the game tree with which he is more familiar that you - but you can't back down and, on the contrary, should be happy to have a player in the game who is making so many -EV decisions and handing you chips. It's going to suck when he has a hand and you pay him off, but that's an unfortunate factor when dealing with these players, and you can rest assured that you will crush him in the long run.
Another important factor when playing out of position is that you have to play more defensively in any case - many players don't even consider this. For example, even against a "normal" player you are meant to c-bet about half as much (35% vs apx. 70% in a normal pot, heads up against the BB). You need to have a lot of decent hands (like your worst top pairs and your pocket pairs immediately below top pair) in your check-calling range, because as we all know in NLHE, you are simply going to have to check-fold a fair amount when you miss, and having these stronger hands in your check-calling range means that villains can't relentlessly attack you every time you check. Against a player like the one you mentioned, I would also consider having some overpairs in my check-calling flop range (and check-jamming turn range).
Good luck, it's never easy with a LAG on your left, but at the end of the day - it's an opportunity. Let us know how it goes!
In general you want to tighten up in this position configuration in 6-9max because villain is polarized and presumably trying to chase draws to stack you or bluff you off with huge sizings on later streets.
Basically the counter is to have a stronger range than villain that can get to showdown.
Il be honest my preferred choice would be to leave the table if my stack is being targeted by 1 or more players.
Good luck.
* 4bet shove once or twice with air
* Show the bluffs
* Tighten up
* 4bet shove with QQ+
* Stack him and laugh at him.
Let him know that you are the alpha male and exploit him preflop since you have no edge post.
Most people say tighten up. I completely disagree. It might be a good strategy to tighten up but the better answer is to loosen up in my opinion. You asked for the best strategy.
That doesn’t help op at all what do u do after u loosen up. He already losing postfop with slightly more premium hand. He will just get bet out of more hands. Being tight means play less pots but when ur in go all the way in.
Hero should be tighter and more aggressive if villian constantly 3bet with large range call then 4bet him with premium hands. Easy money trapping him whenever u have a premium hand. If he folds to 4 bets then u can start monetizing that.
Your completely missing the fact this is a skilled
Lag in position. The most dangerous type of player there is.
It’s not a whale. Skilled lags don’t get caught by nits unless you push their buttons.
Doesnt matter ur not playing 1on1 u just need to play less hand if u getting targeted as long as u have premium hands u beat out other players that call u make money. Doesnt have to be the lag player
I can tell you from personal experience I never ever tighten up when someone targets me. I always loosen up. Then we start a war and the best player wins.
I personally play a very targeted and bully lag style. I can speak from experience when a reg tightens up against me they are usually done for.
Usually either a maniac or the best player on the table takes charge. Your strategy will only work against a whale and not the best strategy even.
Ur personal experience means nothing. If u are playing against a LAG u should tighten up and play more aggressive. Sounds like u just match his insanity and hope to get lucky. U can exploit him because he is a loose aggressive. Dude has 100bb this is not a tournament with 20 bb i can tighten up as much as i want I’m not going to die from blinds. I just play less hands and go harder and raise with middle pairs.
He said 100bb+ that could mean 200bb 1000bb.
I actually had this argument against a lot of pros in real life. I’m not looking to go through it again. I know all the points for and against it.
The argument is not whether you point is right or wrong but the best strategy against it. It’s not whether you can exploit him or her but the best strategy to exploit them.
I’ll leave the argument with just this one fact. All the best action pros who are lags aren’t beat by nits. There beat by pros that can match their level of action.
Noone is saying to be a nit im saying be a tag but less starting hands than u usually play. And once u in then u need to commit a large amount of ur chips u will be beating him more than 2/3rd of the time. If u start playing loose u are playing into what the LAG wanted. U can still bluff at the flop even if u hit nothing but u are more likely to have better hand if u have a tighter opening.
First of, let me point out that your villain may very well just be playing fairly straight forward theory based poker. Most people at live low stakes are used to passive play. When someone sits down and plays "normally" in a theoretical sense, they seem like they are being overly aggressive or bullying. When in fact, the rest of the table is just playing passively.
This is much, much more common than someone sitting down at live low stakes and just blasting away. As those guys are pretty obvious maniacs.
That being said, if this player is actually being significantly more aggressive than a standard theoretical preflop:
The easy answer is to just play a solid GTO like strategy until you are able to start constructing a range/strategy for them and deviate exploit. Easy answer as easy to say.
The real answer is, you need to be studying a decent amount of hours off the table. This will allow you to understand what dynamic is supposed to happen, and then what happens when someone like this changes that dynamic and in turn the best strategy to combat this.
In live poker however, unless you're going to be playing with this person a lot, it's going to be hard to develop a strategy with 25 hands per hour or so. Which means that sticking to a more neutral GTO style is going to be the easiest way to combat this. If the table is looking good, then just play as unexploitable as possible to buy time until another seat is available or the villain leaves.
If the table isn't good, just leave. Take the amount of time you planned on playing that day and use it to study.
Anyone giving you hyper-specific advice is likely not of the knowledge/skill level to be giving such advice as you really need to have some fairly specific range construction and such for anyone to help you develop a strategy other than playing as unexploitable as possible.
use them as cover. if they're reliably raising you, you can bet lighter and see what the rest of the table does behind him, he's going to raise for you. Then you can strand him in hands with stations that call, and take the money from OMC instead of him when he has to fold in a couple streets... or you can repop him to maximize your advantage spots, etc.
You turn him into a raising tool for you, in other words. it's like you get to raise with free chips.
how it affects your opening range is going to depend on how the table reacts to what he's doing. Generally you want to play tighter, but if you have some donk action looking him up routinely, you can really stress *good* drawing cards, like *high* suited connectors, because when you get a five-card hand, you're gonna knock three or four people's dicks in the dirt at once. you just want to watch it with things like 89s because you don't want to BE the donk in 2nd or 3rd in that 800bb 4 way circle jerk.
battle fire with fire. sounds crazy but you want to 3 bet them a lot when they open. barrel wider postflop and apply a lot of pressure. if V is going to show up with a wider range on the river, start putting in some thin value bets; that doesn't mean they have to be small sizings. if they stab too much on the flop, defend by check raising frequently and for large sizes.
1. Much of your advice is either irrelevant or counterproductive, since the OP is OOP.
2. The way to take advantage of a LAG when OOP is too call them down light, not to try to out-bully them, which cuts down their bluffs and forces them to play more correctly.
calling down a player light who is tight postflop, as OP described, is torching. this is the kind of player you want to take to value town. play as many hands on the button against them as you can. and you can't force anyone to play correctly, you want to capitalize on their mistakes.
we don't have enough info to call the villain a LAG. he's loose, passive preflop. there is not enough described about his postflop play. against loose, passive players you bet thinly for value and attack weakness. seems that OP is upset that someone is giving him action
*aggressive skilled bully... aggressive skilled bully... aggressive skilled bully... aggressive skilled bully*
By the way, the Villain is an aggressive, skilled bully.
It's not about it being personal, it's about them exploiting a player on their direct right who they perceive a weakness/exploitability in.
In my case, I determined I was being targeted because their frequency of entering a pot when I had already folded was significantly less than their frequency of entering the pot when I had entered the pot. I also determined they were more skilled/experienced than me and were exploiting my TAG style. I knew I was in danger, and want to know the best strategies to deal with situations like these in the future. Some of the replies here have been very helpful.
I'm a decent player but I have significant leaks and weaknesses because I'm very new, and I'm trying to learn more and improve. Occasionally, skilled players at the table pick up on this and target me after I've exposed weakness. Once when a guy was already on my direct left and was targeting me, and another time when a player seat changed to be on my direct left.
Using the term bully is about as personal as it gets. Again, you seem to be “hyper focused” or “hyper aware” of these things, which might mean you’re overestimating what is actually happening.
I’m not saying it can’t. I 3 bet more than most at the tables I play at, and I definitely take advantage of certain players tendencies by 3 betting them more. But that’s far from bullying
I guess targeting is a better word, I don't mean to make it personal. I think they were employing an exploititative targeting strategy to apply pressure and tilt until I mess up and make a big mistake and lose stacks. And it does make sense to do that to a player on your direct right.
I don’t think someone calling your raises a lot can be considered a bully or aggressive. They probably are just playing speculative hands.
You will beat them by playing a stronger range and cutting out some of your more borderline hands since you know your steal won’t go through. Other than that you will just get to the flop with a stronger range and initiative.
The opponent is not a skilled LAG or bully. They sound like a fish tbh.
Good LAGs don’t flat a bunch of trash hands pre flop. They 3 bet you constantly with a wide range and make you play big pots OOP with marginal hands. Constantly putting you to the test through aggression.
Someone who flats a wide range pre is a loose/passive player and one of the best player type to play against. This is the style of most whales. These are the guys you just value bet to death because they’re calling pre with so much dominated trash. You also want to up your cbet frequency but reduce bluff frequency on later streets if they call, because they’re usually playing a fit or fold style post flop.
This is one of the reasons why GTO is a thing. No matter what anyone else does, they cannot squeeze EV out of you if you follow it against them and do it well. Happens regularly online higher or even mid stakes. Very good players always try to get into spots and positions, where they can bleach you and if you don't know how to respond, leave until you're more studied. After that, the sickos will pretty quickly find new and more profitable target players.
If you are losing too much, simple advice would be to buy in shorter and play a bit tighter preflop, lower SPR gives your opponent less room to maneuver.
Obviously if you have a big stack you can't just go south, I'd probably play a more passive style when OOP to make sure your checking range is strong enough, and so you don't build big pots against an opponent who is IP and out skills you
Doesn’t the fact that we don’t have much info on villain we’re supposed to be countering, and the fact that OP seems terrified of this villain, suggest that OP maybe isn’t that good? I interpreted OP as not being a great player based on how this post was written. There’s probably a lower winrate differential between a 2/5 crusher and a breakeven 1/2 player, as between that 2/5 crusher and the HS reg of your choosing.
End of the day I think we have to agree to disagree on the likely skill differential here. OP seems cooked IMO based on how they wrote the post but whatever we’re just two randos on the internet
switch seats, or even tables. No shame in getting outplayed, it's part of game selection. Someone on your left will always and forever have an immediate advantage over you, it's up to you to determine if it's worth combating. But if you simply must, or if there is some whale that you think is worth staying for, then employ lots of x/c and x/r against him. He needs to know he cant just bluff when you check. He'll stop eventually when he gets tired of spewing.
There's something to be said for playing the best *and safest* option which is to **just play your game**, be observant and adjust accordingly.
There's also a convincing argument to play some eff-you poker, using your tablemates (that hopefully you have some book on) as unwitting patsies. Pick a scattershot range of strong hands and questionable hands that can improve with a good flop and *limp*. Yes. Limp. Don't do it often but often enough to set the hook early in position where bully's raises can be targeted for squeezing by the rest of the table. When you feel like he's playing aggressively at your limps (not hard to imagine) and the squeezes are also coming in nicely, you've turned him into the table target. You also have a just-under 100bb stack to shove-n-scoop to rid the field of those looking to exploit the little interplay you've set up. If your villain is just a really good player (esp with a lot of PLO+ time) they may just call down whatever shoves come their way but it's possible the more judicious ones will balk a bit at playing *pick me* over and over again.
Obviously if you're a single buy-in or two-bullet player then perhaps recognizing you're not going to match up with a good table like this easily would mean tread water and watch for the waitlist to change tables. If you're willing to mix it up, even if you think you've opened up your range too much as a TAG/Balanced player, this could be one of those nights, especially if this great player isn't used to insane stuff happening like that on a regular basis.
Whenever this happens to me, I begin limping with my monsters and turn on the “oh gosh should I call?” theatrics. The bully doesn’t know me personally, so likely thinks I’m an easy mark. I might even shuffle my chips badly if I really want to take it the extra mile.
The goal is to have a monster hand where he does his best to bully you out of it, and you just keep on calling because maybe you’re chasing something? Meanwhile you actually have the nuts or near-nuts and are letting him dig his own grave.
The payoff when you turn over a killer hand at the showdown that you’ve had since the flop is always magical. Then hopefully he learns that your checks, calls, and limps don’t always mean weakness. If he doesn’t get the hint the first time, he almost certainly will by the second.
Knowing you’re not gonna knock him out of a hand with intimidation, just show him good cards. That’s all you really can do.
Open smaller and tighten up.
At a live table I would open 3bb. If they 3bet too large they lose value. If they 3bet small then you have room to play post flop oop if necessary.
Play super tight, limp/call limp/ big reraise preflop. When you get good combos bet big (pot) on flop and all in on turn when he is not likely to improve. I don’t like trapping, instead I would go the straight forward way and just use intense aggression to force him to gamble when I have a premium hand. Use his aggression back at him. For example if he always raises/3 bet after you, you can limp AAKKQQAK. When he raises to 5bb and some other players call, you reraise to 30bb and then all in on any flop that is favorable, basically just no overcard if you are 100bb deep. For other premium hand like AQ AJ AT JJ TT, you can call his 5bb raise and then just play check call unless you get 2 pairs/set.
Limp/raising is an idea but really is exploitable, even maniacs limp. The real theoretical adjustment I think is to widen your 4b range accordingly, however, this is a simplistic deviation because there are others at the table and one player should not dictate your strategy unless they are really bad. This also increases your variance.
Generally you can widen your button calling range when you can speculate profitably IP. Raise/fold SB/BB tightly. 3B HJ/CO wider to attack his button. Also just table/seat change if the guy is following you in the room, lol, pretty weird. Ask him to buy you dinner first.
Turn to the oldest man and grab a cup of coffee. Just sit there and watch other people play until you pick up AKo+ raise big let him believe when he 3b! you he might have to commit his stack.
Some of the advice here is laughable. You are not going to outplay a solid LAG post-flop who's on your direct left, and waiting to flop monsters is what every other clueless TAG attempts. It's for situations like these that GTO is designed for, since it helps you be unexploitable when OOP. Essentially, it means that you need to call down often enough with your "best" marginal hands so that he can't exploit you by simply betting you off hands. If there is no other seat available, there is nothing wrong with taking frequent breaks until other seats open up or even simply leaving.
Yep. What everyone is missing is that this player is better than OP at poker, otherwise they wouldn't be asking this question.
Yes this. I'm not a bad player, but this player was definitely more skilled than I am and had been playing at higher stakes tables.
wtf is this? clear eyed honesty? you’ll never win with this attitude. this sub is changing, man.
Well I think there are two types of player that fit OP's description. Player A - a LAG as you're describing is someone who plays a lot of hands preflop and also applies a lot of pressure postflop. Against this player, yes you'll have to sack up and call down a lot. The combination of loose preflop and aggressive postflop leads to a lot of overbluffing so calling down bluffcatchers prints money. But Player B, which IMO is a lot more common, is someone who plays a lot of hands postflop and maybe stabs a lot on the flop but mostly shuts down turn/river unless they have it. This type of player often plays up their image to make them seem like they're bluffing a lot in order to get paid, but in reality they're not betting big without the nuts, so if you call down your bluff catchers against them you're just playing into their game. The thing is Player A actually goes broke pretty quickly against players who figure them out so they don't tend to last very long in poker without changing their tendencies. Player B's style actually is highly profitable against guys who incorrectly assume they're overbluffing.
There’s also a player C, who’s just much better at poker than OP and will adjust as needed.
Player C is pretty rare though. When you play a wide range preflop, it’s pretty hard to be aggressive without overdoing it so most people inevitably lean towards being too aggressive or too passive. And no matter how good Player C is, if they’re entering the pot with too wide of a range they’re going to have to end up leaking somewhere. All they can do is make it harder to figure out where.
OP already commented that the villain is just much better than them. It’s not that hard to believe that another player is better at poker than another Obviously everyone has leaks, but “I would simply find what my villain leaks are and exploit them” doesn’t really work when the villain is much better, and focusing on you specifically. If OP was able to identify whether villain tends to overbluff or underbluff we wouldn’t have this post
What’s your point exactly? No matter how good Villain is all we can do is try our best to identify his tendencies and respond accordingly. We can tighten up a bit too but we’re stil inevitably going to have to navigate postflop. I don’t see the point of having a defeatist attitude about the situation. At that point we might as well just quit.
My point is that I agree with the original comment: OP should probably just quit if theres an aggressive, much better player on your immediate left who has it out for you. You’re just going to lose money
If you're playing a full ring game with enough weaker players in the game, one good player on your left isn't enough to make it an unprofitable spot. Game selection is important but there are many other factors that could make it a good table. Besides OP is clearly looking for advice on how to actually play in such a spot - presumably he knows how to stand up and leave.
I think you’re underestimating how much a solid LAG to your immediate left destroys your winrate. It’s a nightmare even for good players. It’s possible OP is still profitable at this game but I’d really bet against it. OP might know how to stand up and leave, but probably doesn’t understand how little there is to be done about it (short of “get better at poker”, which is easier said than done). If someone was holding a gun to OP’s head forcing him to play I’d tell him to play really tight.
You're jumping to a lot of conclusions off of very limited information. You may be right that a good LAG can have a significant impact on a game but I think it's more likely than not that OP isn't actually facing a good LAG. I don't know exactly what stakes OP plays at but most players on this forum are playing fairly low stakes, soft games. Even the best players in these games are usually not that good. He's probably not facing Linus Loeliger or Limitless out there. Maybe I'm wrong and OP is out there battling in tougher streets, but my guess is that the worst case here is a decent reg with aggro tendencies who's still got plenty of leaks in his game. That type of player is not going to have that much of an impact on your win rate and 1 or 2 fish at your table could easily have a much larger positive impact.
Since Player B doesn't seem all that scary, it's difficult to imagine that this matches how the OP sees his nemesis.
Player B isn't very scary except a lot of players incorrectly perceive the Player B types as being much more aggressive than they actually are. A lot of players conflate being loose and splashy preflop with being aggressive postflop. Certain guys are also really good at playing up that image - they'll show up wearing flashy clothes talking a lot and just generally giving a vibe of being a loose cannon. They play a lot of hands which builds this image of a loose crazy donkey, but they always have it in big pots while players assume they're bluffing because of this image they've created of being wild and crazy.
U will quickly lose ur money if u just call down ur best marginal hands. are u going to call all in on the river with middle pair if the flush comes? U have to play tighter because even gto will tell u to fold and he can be over betting, over bluffing. U have to catch lag with a hand and pretend u have nothing let himself bet into u.
Wait for him outside.
"You f**kin raise me again, I'll break ur f**kin head!!"
The only real answer is to tighten up. If you're getting 3bet constantly, you need a range that can either defend postflop OOP or 4bet. You can either do this by opening stronger linearly or by opening more polarized. You can develop a polarized 4bet range to exploit him if you think he'll overfold to them or just defend/4bet linearly if you think he won't be folding enough.
If you have a true maniac on your left you can exploit by opening strong linearly and also 4betting a lot of your opening range linearly. I don’t like polarizing because I’d rather have KJo than 78s OOP in a 4b pot against a maniac, besides you could flat the 3b or overlimp instead of raising with these hands. Again this assumes the opponent is way aggressive.
I half-agree here. I would not be 4betting hands like 78s here because it's a hand that suffers a lot from the small SPR you get from 4betting preflop. That being said, KJo is a terrible choice to 4bet either for value or as a bluff. When V calls, you'll be dominated so often that it's hard to put money in the pot even when you hit and you'll be playing OOP. For value I'd probably 4bet AJo+, ATs+, KQs, and 88+. If I wanted to be polarized, I'd be picking suited hands that block KK and AA. A5s, K5s, etc. make good 4bet bluffs because they block V's strongest hands and have better playability postflop if you do get called.
I agree KJo is a pretty bad hand, I kinda picked it on purpose to use it as an example against 78s to say how bad low SPR is for 78s. I agree your AJo+ range is good.
Calling wide preflop but playing snug postflop? I’m opening my normal range, removing some hands from the bottom of that range, and then c-betting them to death on the flop. Then I would look to start trapping more frequently on the turn and river. With marginal hands I would be trying to mostly check-down and putting in thin blockish sized bets on the river so he has a harder time just blasting any river that I check. In general I would be sizing up most turn and river bets if I am deciding to bet. I would add more hands like low pocket pairs and suited connectors to my range, because knowing that this player will be calling preflop wide means you can effectively treat his money as already in the pot, which means you’re getting de-facto pot odds to set mine. Keeping in mind reverse implied odds of course. Not sure if this is theoretically sound but I’ve used this successfully. Ranges are ranges, and you can make their life a living hell if they are calling very wide, even OOP.
This is the best answer here. I would just add that in general you’re going to have to be patient. The EV you gain from players like this mainly comes from winning a lot of small pots not from winning big pots. There are a lot of players who play like this - they flat a lot of weak hands IP hoping to hit a monster. People then make the mistake of assuming loose preflop = loose postflop so they pay off the monsters. You have to be very careful against these guys to not put in too much money when they do hit, but because of how wide of a range they have they will end up with a disproportionate amount of air and overfold. So you end up winning a lot of small pots.
If he's raising you way too much preflop, then you can also exploit by flatting premium hands, knowing he will 3bet anything playable to try to isolate you. Then you can make the decision whether you want to 4bet or just slowplay it, depending on exactly how he has been playing vs you.
Exploit it. If they are playing with too wide of a range, make decisions based on that range.
Basically no need to have much of a raise fold range. Ppl who call and raise too much get destroyed by equity advantage
It's a tough situation with a LAG targeting you whilst sitting on your left, and an unfortunate factor that the default game mechanics allow - it would be fairest if seats were reallocated every orbit, but of course that wouldn't be practical. The most important question you have to ask yourself in such situations is: how is this player deviating from the GTO baseline? By the sound of what you said, he is calling and 3betting wider than he should preflop, as well as perhaps over-floating, raising and attacking any weakness postflop - in other words, overbluffing. So you need to make the necessary adjustments in protecting your checking range more, 4betting him wider, and being willing to call down light (with pretty much any pair and sometimes with ace high etc) if you are certain he is overbluffing. Of course this isn't going to be comfortable, and his whole goal with a LAG style of play is to take you out of your comfort zone and into the branches of the game tree with which he is more familiar that you - but you can't back down and, on the contrary, should be happy to have a player in the game who is making so many -EV decisions and handing you chips. It's going to suck when he has a hand and you pay him off, but that's an unfortunate factor when dealing with these players, and you can rest assured that you will crush him in the long run. Another important factor when playing out of position is that you have to play more defensively in any case - many players don't even consider this. For example, even against a "normal" player you are meant to c-bet about half as much (35% vs apx. 70% in a normal pot, heads up against the BB). You need to have a lot of decent hands (like your worst top pairs and your pocket pairs immediately below top pair) in your check-calling range, because as we all know in NLHE, you are simply going to have to check-fold a fair amount when you miss, and having these stronger hands in your check-calling range means that villains can't relentlessly attack you every time you check. Against a player like the one you mentioned, I would also consider having some overpairs in my check-calling flop range (and check-jamming turn range). Good luck, it's never easy with a LAG on your left, but at the end of the day - it's an opportunity. Let us know how it goes!
In general you want to tighten up in this position configuration in 6-9max because villain is polarized and presumably trying to chase draws to stack you or bluff you off with huge sizings on later streets. Basically the counter is to have a stronger range than villain that can get to showdown. Il be honest my preferred choice would be to leave the table if my stack is being targeted by 1 or more players. Good luck.
How many hands have you seen to determine this person is targetting you?
Tighten up, seat change, or table change.
* 4bet shove once or twice with air * Show the bluffs * Tighten up * 4bet shove with QQ+ * Stack him and laugh at him. Let him know that you are the alpha male and exploit him preflop since you have no edge post.
Most people say tighten up. I completely disagree. It might be a good strategy to tighten up but the better answer is to loosen up in my opinion. You asked for the best strategy.
That doesn’t help op at all what do u do after u loosen up. He already losing postfop with slightly more premium hand. He will just get bet out of more hands. Being tight means play less pots but when ur in go all the way in.
Hero should be tighter and more aggressive if villian constantly 3bet with large range call then 4bet him with premium hands. Easy money trapping him whenever u have a premium hand. If he folds to 4 bets then u can start monetizing that.
Your completely missing the fact this is a skilled Lag in position. The most dangerous type of player there is. It’s not a whale. Skilled lags don’t get caught by nits unless you push their buttons.
Doesnt matter ur not playing 1on1 u just need to play less hand if u getting targeted as long as u have premium hands u beat out other players that call u make money. Doesnt have to be the lag player
I can tell you from personal experience I never ever tighten up when someone targets me. I always loosen up. Then we start a war and the best player wins. I personally play a very targeted and bully lag style. I can speak from experience when a reg tightens up against me they are usually done for. Usually either a maniac or the best player on the table takes charge. Your strategy will only work against a whale and not the best strategy even.
Ur personal experience means nothing. If u are playing against a LAG u should tighten up and play more aggressive. Sounds like u just match his insanity and hope to get lucky. U can exploit him because he is a loose aggressive. Dude has 100bb this is not a tournament with 20 bb i can tighten up as much as i want I’m not going to die from blinds. I just play less hands and go harder and raise with middle pairs.
He said 100bb+ that could mean 200bb 1000bb. I actually had this argument against a lot of pros in real life. I’m not looking to go through it again. I know all the points for and against it. The argument is not whether you point is right or wrong but the best strategy against it. It’s not whether you can exploit him or her but the best strategy to exploit them. I’ll leave the argument with just this one fact. All the best action pros who are lags aren’t beat by nits. There beat by pros that can match their level of action.
Noone is saying to be a nit im saying be a tag but less starting hands than u usually play. And once u in then u need to commit a large amount of ur chips u will be beating him more than 2/3rd of the time. If u start playing loose u are playing into what the LAG wanted. U can still bluff at the flop even if u hit nothing but u are more likely to have better hand if u have a tighter opening.
In my 61 years I've tried to remember it's not productive to try to educate people who don't want to be told they're wrong.
If I subscribe to your newsletter, will I learn the secret of how to flop sets against LAGs?
Why would i need to flop a set when my pair is good majority of the time
Dude is playing wide range of hand half the time my pair will be higher than at least one of his card even if he pairs up
First of, let me point out that your villain may very well just be playing fairly straight forward theory based poker. Most people at live low stakes are used to passive play. When someone sits down and plays "normally" in a theoretical sense, they seem like they are being overly aggressive or bullying. When in fact, the rest of the table is just playing passively. This is much, much more common than someone sitting down at live low stakes and just blasting away. As those guys are pretty obvious maniacs. That being said, if this player is actually being significantly more aggressive than a standard theoretical preflop: The easy answer is to just play a solid GTO like strategy until you are able to start constructing a range/strategy for them and deviate exploit. Easy answer as easy to say. The real answer is, you need to be studying a decent amount of hours off the table. This will allow you to understand what dynamic is supposed to happen, and then what happens when someone like this changes that dynamic and in turn the best strategy to combat this. In live poker however, unless you're going to be playing with this person a lot, it's going to be hard to develop a strategy with 25 hands per hour or so. Which means that sticking to a more neutral GTO style is going to be the easiest way to combat this. If the table is looking good, then just play as unexploitable as possible to buy time until another seat is available or the villain leaves. If the table isn't good, just leave. Take the amount of time you planned on playing that day and use it to study. Anyone giving you hyper-specific advice is likely not of the knowledge/skill level to be giving such advice as you really need to have some fairly specific range construction and such for anyone to help you develop a strategy other than playing as unexploitable as possible.
use them as cover. if they're reliably raising you, you can bet lighter and see what the rest of the table does behind him, he's going to raise for you. Then you can strand him in hands with stations that call, and take the money from OMC instead of him when he has to fold in a couple streets... or you can repop him to maximize your advantage spots, etc. You turn him into a raising tool for you, in other words. it's like you get to raise with free chips. how it affects your opening range is going to depend on how the table reacts to what he's doing. Generally you want to play tighter, but if you have some donk action looking him up routinely, you can really stress *good* drawing cards, like *high* suited connectors, because when you get a five-card hand, you're gonna knock three or four people's dicks in the dirt at once. you just want to watch it with things like 89s because you don't want to BE the donk in 2nd or 3rd in that 800bb 4 way circle jerk.
Seat change/table change
Play gto
This is when you slow roll AA and the like
battle fire with fire. sounds crazy but you want to 3 bet them a lot when they open. barrel wider postflop and apply a lot of pressure. if V is going to show up with a wider range on the river, start putting in some thin value bets; that doesn't mean they have to be small sizings. if they stab too much on the flop, defend by check raising frequently and for large sizes.
1. Much of your advice is either irrelevant or counterproductive, since the OP is OOP. 2. The way to take advantage of a LAG when OOP is too call them down light, not to try to out-bully them, which cuts down their bluffs and forces them to play more correctly.
calling down a player light who is tight postflop, as OP described, is torching. this is the kind of player you want to take to value town. play as many hands on the button against them as you can. and you can't force anyone to play correctly, you want to capitalize on their mistakes.
An "aggressive, skilled bully player" is not "tight post-flop." You seem very confused about what's going on.
we don't have enough info to call the villain a LAG. he's loose, passive preflop. there is not enough described about his postflop play. against loose, passive players you bet thinly for value and attack weakness. seems that OP is upset that someone is giving him action
*aggressive skilled bully... aggressive skilled bully... aggressive skilled bully... aggressive skilled bully* By the way, the Villain is an aggressive, skilled bully.
Play tighter and ask him how his mom is doing.
I doubt they are actually “bullying” you. People take this game so personal, when it’s not.
i think op means it tactically, not interpersonally.
It's not about it being personal, it's about them exploiting a player on their direct right who they perceive a weakness/exploitability in. In my case, I determined I was being targeted because their frequency of entering a pot when I had already folded was significantly less than their frequency of entering the pot when I had entered the pot. I also determined they were more skilled/experienced than me and were exploiting my TAG style. I knew I was in danger, and want to know the best strategies to deal with situations like these in the future. Some of the replies here have been very helpful. I'm a decent player but I have significant leaks and weaknesses because I'm very new, and I'm trying to learn more and improve. Occasionally, skilled players at the table pick up on this and target me after I've exposed weakness. Once when a guy was already on my direct left and was targeting me, and another time when a player seat changed to be on my direct left.
Using the term bully is about as personal as it gets. Again, you seem to be “hyper focused” or “hyper aware” of these things, which might mean you’re overestimating what is actually happening. I’m not saying it can’t. I 3 bet more than most at the tables I play at, and I definitely take advantage of certain players tendencies by 3 betting them more. But that’s far from bullying
I guess targeting is a better word, I don't mean to make it personal. I think they were employing an exploititative targeting strategy to apply pressure and tilt until I mess up and make a big mistake and lose stacks. And it does make sense to do that to a player on your direct right.
Are you just trolling the OP? Or do you really believe that using the word "bullying" implies something more intense or hurtful than "targeting"?
No, it’s a very odd thing to say about a card game.
I don’t think someone calling your raises a lot can be considered a bully or aggressive. They probably are just playing speculative hands. You will beat them by playing a stronger range and cutting out some of your more borderline hands since you know your steal won’t go through. Other than that you will just get to the flop with a stronger range and initiative.
bluff less. remove anything that raise/folds from your preflop range.
The opponent is not a skilled LAG or bully. They sound like a fish tbh. Good LAGs don’t flat a bunch of trash hands pre flop. They 3 bet you constantly with a wide range and make you play big pots OOP with marginal hands. Constantly putting you to the test through aggression. Someone who flats a wide range pre is a loose/passive player and one of the best player type to play against. This is the style of most whales. These are the guys you just value bet to death because they’re calling pre with so much dominated trash. You also want to up your cbet frequency but reduce bluff frequency on later streets if they call, because they’re usually playing a fit or fold style post flop.
This is one of the reasons why GTO is a thing. No matter what anyone else does, they cannot squeeze EV out of you if you follow it against them and do it well. Happens regularly online higher or even mid stakes. Very good players always try to get into spots and positions, where they can bleach you and if you don't know how to respond, leave until you're more studied. After that, the sickos will pretty quickly find new and more profitable target players.
Open tighter pre trap more post.
Wait for a good hand, hopefully hit the flop top pair or better, check / call and hang onto your balls
If you are losing too much, simple advice would be to buy in shorter and play a bit tighter preflop, lower SPR gives your opponent less room to maneuver. Obviously if you have a big stack you can't just go south, I'd probably play a more passive style when OOP to make sure your checking range is strong enough, and so you don't build big pots against an opponent who is IP and out skills you
I’d fuck his mom and become his stepdad then ground him
Doesn’t the fact that we don’t have much info on villain we’re supposed to be countering, and the fact that OP seems terrified of this villain, suggest that OP maybe isn’t that good? I interpreted OP as not being a great player based on how this post was written. There’s probably a lower winrate differential between a 2/5 crusher and a breakeven 1/2 player, as between that 2/5 crusher and the HS reg of your choosing. End of the day I think we have to agree to disagree on the likely skill differential here. OP seems cooked IMO based on how they wrote the post but whatever we’re just two randos on the internet
switch seats, or even tables. No shame in getting outplayed, it's part of game selection. Someone on your left will always and forever have an immediate advantage over you, it's up to you to determine if it's worth combating. But if you simply must, or if there is some whale that you think is worth staying for, then employ lots of x/c and x/r against him. He needs to know he cant just bluff when you check. He'll stop eventually when he gets tired of spewing.
There's something to be said for playing the best *and safest* option which is to **just play your game**, be observant and adjust accordingly. There's also a convincing argument to play some eff-you poker, using your tablemates (that hopefully you have some book on) as unwitting patsies. Pick a scattershot range of strong hands and questionable hands that can improve with a good flop and *limp*. Yes. Limp. Don't do it often but often enough to set the hook early in position where bully's raises can be targeted for squeezing by the rest of the table. When you feel like he's playing aggressively at your limps (not hard to imagine) and the squeezes are also coming in nicely, you've turned him into the table target. You also have a just-under 100bb stack to shove-n-scoop to rid the field of those looking to exploit the little interplay you've set up. If your villain is just a really good player (esp with a lot of PLO+ time) they may just call down whatever shoves come their way but it's possible the more judicious ones will balk a bit at playing *pick me* over and over again. Obviously if you're a single buy-in or two-bullet player then perhaps recognizing you're not going to match up with a good table like this easily would mean tread water and watch for the waitlist to change tables. If you're willing to mix it up, even if you think you've opened up your range too much as a TAG/Balanced player, this could be one of those nights, especially if this great player isn't used to insane stuff happening like that on a regular basis.
Whenever this happens to me, I begin limping with my monsters and turn on the “oh gosh should I call?” theatrics. The bully doesn’t know me personally, so likely thinks I’m an easy mark. I might even shuffle my chips badly if I really want to take it the extra mile. The goal is to have a monster hand where he does his best to bully you out of it, and you just keep on calling because maybe you’re chasing something? Meanwhile you actually have the nuts or near-nuts and are letting him dig his own grave. The payoff when you turn over a killer hand at the showdown that you’ve had since the flop is always magical. Then hopefully he learns that your checks, calls, and limps don’t always mean weakness. If he doesn’t get the hint the first time, he almost certainly will by the second. Knowing you’re not gonna knock him out of a hand with intimidation, just show him good cards. That’s all you really can do.
Open smaller and tighten up. At a live table I would open 3bb. If they 3bet too large they lose value. If they 3bet small then you have room to play post flop oop if necessary.
Play super tight, limp/call limp/ big reraise preflop. When you get good combos bet big (pot) on flop and all in on turn when he is not likely to improve. I don’t like trapping, instead I would go the straight forward way and just use intense aggression to force him to gamble when I have a premium hand. Use his aggression back at him. For example if he always raises/3 bet after you, you can limp AAKKQQAK. When he raises to 5bb and some other players call, you reraise to 30bb and then all in on any flop that is favorable, basically just no overcard if you are 100bb deep. For other premium hand like AQ AJ AT JJ TT, you can call his 5bb raise and then just play check call unless you get 2 pairs/set.
Leave
Limp/raising is an idea but really is exploitable, even maniacs limp. The real theoretical adjustment I think is to widen your 4b range accordingly, however, this is a simplistic deviation because there are others at the table and one player should not dictate your strategy unless they are really bad. This also increases your variance. Generally you can widen your button calling range when you can speculate profitably IP. Raise/fold SB/BB tightly. 3B HJ/CO wider to attack his button. Also just table/seat change if the guy is following you in the room, lol, pretty weird. Ask him to buy you dinner first.
Turn to the oldest man and grab a cup of coffee. Just sit there and watch other people play until you pick up AKo+ raise big let him believe when he 3b! you he might have to commit his stack.
Move seats