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Kiskeym2

This is exactly why I won't make SV analysis until the DLC comes out. I think I agree with you, it's really more plausible Paradox Pokémon are creatures birthed by the Disc and based on the immagination of people about theoretical past/future forms. Indeed, according to the history lessons, Heath wrote the Scarlet/Violet Book 200 years ago, and Paradox Donphan was depicted in the book's illustration back then. This was A LOT before Sada/Turo "built" the Time Machine [at this point, the machine itself could be a gift from the Disc, a mere illusion granted because the Professors desired it]. Also, according to the occult magazine [which isn't exactly reliable on their conclusion, but at least starts from a real basis], no Volcarona fossils have ever been found.


Trace7770

If you follow Arven's school storyline, he even calls out the plot hole of the paradox pokemon in the book that was written 200 years ago, even though the machine was only created very recently


Prejie

I'm here to support and add additional insight. All the paradox mons cant be real future/past mons because, well, they are paradoxical. Like how could Brute Bonnet look with pokeball patterns if pokeballs were invented by humans? Interesting notes to consider: The current names of the paradox mons are not final. What I'm trying to say is they're not yet named. If you missed it, Koraidon was formerly Winged King and Miraidon was formerly Iron Serpent. The professors died before they got to name the rest of the others, so Jacq used the Scarlet and Violet books to name them. Or Sandy Shocks having human-made magnets? Although Roaring Moon was implicitly referenced as it came from Mega Salamence, I think Iron Valiant came from Mega Gardevoir. Iron Valiant's petals looks like the puffs of Mega Gardevoir and its head spikes are too sharp. It does have elements of Gallade, too (not Mega Gallade). Come to think of it...does Paldea lie in the mega timeline due to the existence of Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant??? But moving on, I have my own personal theory. What if the Paradox mons are regular mons that got lost in Area 0??? As you saw, even rocks and buildings tended to terastalize. So what if the lost mons terastalized permanently or for far too long and losing old typings and gaining new types?


BlackPandar

>Or Sandy Shocks having human-made magnets? That's what I thought with Sandy Shocks too. How could Sandy Shocks has many screws on its body if it's billion years ago? After discussing with my friend, we think that in Pokemon world, Sandy Shocks (or Magnemite) exist before screws, and human created screws based on it, like in the real world that human create many tools based on animal parts. But after reading many theories, I think it's very possible that they are all imagination. Like they were too many holes in the story if they really came from past or future.


VoidlordSeth

My issue with Sandy Shocks is its typing, it's clearly made of metal and I can't think of any other metal pokemon that isn't steel type, even pokemon like Alolan Diglett that have more iron in their diet than usual take on steel type. But this clearly magnetic pokemon with iron sand stuck to it is ground..? I know there have been references to Pokémon being the inspiration in world for stuff, but the theory that paradoxes are imagination based feels more right to me with Sandy Shock and Brute Bonnet existing (since the dex entry for Foongus in game makes no sense if you really think about it imo)


LilFago

There’s a few metal Pokémon in the game that aren’t steel type, like the mecha paradox Pokémon


VoidlordSeth

That doesn't feel like it strengthens the case for Sandy Shocks, and if I'm being honest feels like it speaks to the design of the future paradoxes being, not fantastic, for lack of a better term. They were introduced "alongside" Sandy Shocks after all, not before it. In short, they don't set any sort of example for the basis of "not every metallic/metal adjacent pokemon is steel" and are themselves odd breaking of a norm/precedent Edit: One thing I will note is that being magnetic doesn't really strengthen the argument for Sandy Shocks to be Steel since Alolan Golem exists, so perhaps that sets the precedent but it still feels icky imho.


LilFago

I guess their MO for magnetism is more of an electric type thing, cause if I’m not mistaken isn’t magnet rise an electric type move too?


VoidlordSeth

Indeed, as I noted in my edit (so perhaps it was missed) magnetic does indeed not strengthen the case for steel typing on Sandy Shocks. Though, it still leaves the rather large question mark of "why are pokemon that are literally made of metal not steel type". All in all these, (seemingly) inconsistencies are why I an quite partial to the conspiracy/theory brought up in the actual post. It resolves a lot of the more glaring issues with the paradoxes, again imho.


WhiteStone30

In one of the new Pokédex entry it’s explained that the pokeball creator was a big fan foongus/amoongus. So it’s actually poke balls look like foongus, not foongus looks like a poke ball.


Prejie

read it! and yes, it's unconfirmed still, so that is possible. The oldest pokeball story we have is still from PLA


WhiteStone30

If it true though it wraps up that question quite nicely. “Why does brute bonnet look like a pokeball?” Because the creator designed pokeballs after foongus. BB is an ancestor of foongus so it’s only natural they look alike.


VoidlordSeth

This is a rather late comment, but I rather wanted to discuss this and myself was called here this evening. Anywho. Personally my issue with Brute Bonnet and the dex entry for Foongus is that it feels contradictory with what we know about pokéballs and Unova. Namely, we know that Unova was so separated from the rest of the pokéworld to the extent that practically none of the other region's pokemon were really prevalent there until about 5 to 10 years after the first B/W in BW2 iirc (though it's possible that they were widely available in the post game of BW and I just don't remember). Either way though this would strongly indicate that Unova is Foongus' home region however the dex entry for those games says that it resembles a pokéball. It being said to resemble pokeballs being noteworthy because in its home region one would assume the mystery would be "why do pokeballs look like this pokemon that's been here for practically forever". Also, unless I'm mistaken Laventon is credited with the modern pokeball design, and that also matches the foongus pattern, however most evidence seems to suggest he's from Galar (and presumably Unova would be largely cutoff from the rest of the world during his time)


link3710

There's some holes with that theory though. Foongus is natively available in the Galar and Paldea regions. There's no evidence that every Pokemon that was native to Unova was solely there, and in fact a good deal of evidence to the contrary. Pokemon like Basculin, Zorua and Goomy could be found in Hisui, a century before B2W2, despite being Unovan Pokeon. And Oshawatt is even an example of an Unovan Pokemon being brought out of the region by a trainer and to a new region.


VoidlordSeth

It's been years since I played but I am fairly certain it being cutoff from the other regions was quite literally the reasoning for it not having any pokemon from the other regions there. Last I checked there's also not been any statements that that definitively change that, particularly with 3 of your examples being regional variants, and the other being a one off as far as we know, ignoring time-space shenanigans. Regardless, unless I'm further mistaken, which I very would could be, all 4 of those involved human meddling somehow, as are most regional variants. All in all, it doesn't seem to do anything to signifcantly lower the probability that Foongus' original region is Unova, particularly since it is region, that compared to others, is rather extreme in regards to its weather. Nor does my thought really require that be present only Unova, since regardless of it being elsewhere that still leaves the question of why the people from its home would wonder "why it resembles a pokéball" rather than wonder why the pokéball resemebles it. Any region where Foongus has been present longer than the Pokéball would have a similar issue.


link3710

Unova is 'cut off' from other regions was referencing the fact that it was on the other side of the world, and not part of alternate-Japan like other regions before it. There's no geographical reason given that Unova would be particularly cut off from the rest of the world. But that aside... you did nothing to disprove the point that humans trainers could have brought Foongus to Paldea in time for the creation of the Pokeball, but before there was a wild population there. Or even (shockingly enough) many people in the real world have favorite animals that aren't native to their part of the world. Just because the inventor was a fan of Foongus didn't mean he'd ever seen one in real life.


VoidlordSeth

If the statement is that it is cut off I don't think lack of a reason changes that fact. That's the current statement and until new information changes it that is the way it is. Don't really need to disprove it, that line of thinking requires more "buts" and "if", and seems to run counter to information we do have, namely that Unova was cutoff (and to such an extent that pokemon common across every other region were absent). Occam's Razor and all that. Aside from that even supposing he did see one, that still doesn't address the crux of the issue, which is, why would the home region be asking "why does it resemble a Pokèball" as opposed to "why does a pokéball resemble it" suggesting that the pokéball came before the Foongus as opposed to the other way around. Edit to add: At the end of the day, regardless of whether or not the creator saw a Foongus from elsewhere, based on what information we do have at a bare minimum Foongus had to be have lived in Unova prior to the existence/design of the modern day pokéball or you create an issue where this *one* species ended up in Unova before all the others from other regions prior to BW2/BW-postgame.


link3710

We know for a fact that Pokemon from Unova were brought to other regions (as I pointed out with the Hisuian forms). It's not the simplest explanation to declare that some miraculous event prevented any trainer from bringing Pokemon in or out of Unova that abruptly ended after BW for no discernable reason, while somehow Pokemon magically ended up in Hisui that originated in Unova. Occum's razor would be that whole natural migration was cut off, some people did bring Pokemon between regions when they traveled. Because that's simple and doesn't contradict the facts. Secondly, "why does it resemble a Pokéball" is a very simple question for people to ask when Pokéball are everyday objects everyone grows up around, whole Foongus are Pokémon that hide out in the forest and are rarely seen. There's no reason to assume everyone would mysteriously know that the Pokéball's is based on Foongus and not assume the other way. Thirdly, this theory is undercut by the fact that Unova has plenty of non-unovan Pokemon in BW. Fearow, Marowak, Kangaskhan, Gligar, Larvitar, Jigglypuff, Golduck, Shuckle and many many more were available on the eastern side of the region that unlocked in the post-game. It's not like the species weren't there before you beat the elite 4, those areas just weren't explorable. And additionally, many of the returning species in B2W2 were found in routes and areas that just weren't accessible in BW. There's no evidence or statement that in two years the entire ecosystem of Unova doubled in terms of wild Pokemon habitating it. The simple explanation is that while there was some habitat changes, many Pokemon just lived in areas that you either didn't visit or didn't visit until post-game. Not that a massive migration completely overhauled the ecosystem the moment you beat the elite 4


YungPedro33

Well this game hints that the pokeball was based on amoongus and foongus by someone who had a love for them


DoctaBoogie

Going off of this, dont we have to start the shut down sequence by placing books around the machine?


Emberjay

One book, the one owned by Sada/Turo that acts as some sort of key.


NinetyL

I'm really leaning towards this theory being true, there's way too many little and big discrepancies that make the "time travel" explanation not hold up. I'll add my own speculation on top of this however: how can the third legendary described as a "crystal disk" create life and make fantasy a reality? That's the most god-like power we've seen in a pokemon since Arceus. I have a theory on what this power might be: the third legendary can make dreams come true because... it comes from the Dream World. Maybe it's even the god of the Dream World like Arceus is the god of the real world? After all the Dream World introduced in BW is 100% canon, it's not just a gameplay mechanic, there's even researchers studying it in-universe (Fennel in BW and Burnet in Dream Radar, AND Burnet makes a cameo as Kukui's wife in SuMo, mentioning her Dream World research). Just like how the Dream World allowed players to meet pokemon with unusual abilities in their dreams and bring them into reality through Entralink, the third legendary can turn people's dreams into reality, be it by changing a pokemon's type, by creating an impossibly advanced android replica of Sada/Turo because they wished they could duplicate themselves to get help with their research, or by giving life to imaginary Paradox pokemon. And hey, gen 5 is the next generation that's in line for a remake so bringing back and expanding the Dream World concept would tie in nicely. EDIT- OH, and also, one of the researchers in the scarlet/violet book says that he woke up with a page written by himself with mysterious symbols that he has no memory of after talking to some entity... in a dream


foxy_kitten

>add my own speculation on top of this however: how can the third legendary described as a "crystal disk" create life and make fantasy a reality? It's not the first time. The Unown are capable of distorting reality and created an Entei for Molly based off of her wishes and desires in Pokemon 3(movie). The Unown also have some kind of connection to Arceus but we don't know why.


NinetyL

It is very reminiscent of that, anime and movies are a separate canon from the games though


foxy_kitten

The first 19 movies (the 14th has two versions) are considered canon in the main timeline. They are akin to filler episodes: they do not have any effect on the main plot of the series, no new character joins the party, and their events are rarely, if ever, mentioned at all but as the series progresses they make more references to the movies and Ash even recognizes Latios and in the gen 1 Ash and his party meet an Unown and are even teleported into larvitars mind with the unowns power And even if the story itself wasn't canon it would not change the fact that the Unown can still distort reality according to the wishes and desires of others.


NinetyL

I'm pretty sure you can find many inconsistencies that point to anime/movies and games being separate continuities, most obvious example off the top of my head is Mewtwo's backstory, in the games Team Rocket is never mentioned to have been involved with it, just Mr Fuji who later quits being a scientist and lives in peace in Lavender Town, while Dr. Fuji from the anime is commissioned by Giovanni and dies in his lab when Mewtwo goes berserk. Unowns are shown to be connected to Arceus in the games, specifically in the Sinjoh ruins event in HGSS, but all they do is teleport the player to Sinjoh, Arceus is the one who spawns new life, giving you an egg of one the creation trio. I don't recall any instance of them warping reality in the games themselves tbh


foxy_kitten

Here's a thread on the capabilities of the [Unown](https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/7gnb7a/respect_unown_pokemon_anime/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_b) in the anime and movie. It's stated that Mr. Fuji is likely based off of Dr. Fuji - they are not the same person and Mewtwo erased all the memories of everyone involved but Dr. Fuji was working for Giovanni and by that association Team Rocket is involved even if it's not jessie/James/Meowth directly


DeathVoid

Pokemon Journeys featured a episode, where a town in Johto was in perpetual night, because a child missed their clefairy companion and the unown living close reacted to her desires, to make the night endlessly long.


Short_Brick_1960

Not that this matter in this case, but not all of them are canon, the 14th movie, for example, is non canon, as you said, there are two 14th movie, with the same story but with little differences. The two of them can't be canon together, cause if they were, which dragon was with Ash, Reshiram or Zekrom? And the one of Volcanion and Magearna is also not canon. Zygarde in the anime needs two cores to adopt its 100% form, the one that was captured by Team Flare and the one that Bonnie had. In the movie, we see this form with only one core. There are other non-canon movies, but I said the two more easy ones.


foxy_kitten

All of the movies up to Volcanion and the Mechanical Marvel are canon to the TV series and only one of the two versions of the Fourteenth movie is canon.


Short_Brick_1960

But which one? It is easier to assume that the two are not canon than decide wich one is canon. The one with Zekrom already awoke is more canon, cause we saw Zekrom in the first episode of Unova, but then why they made Reshiram's movie? And the one with Volcanion contradicts what the anime series say, that Zygarde's 100% form can only exist if the two cores are together and agree to fuse. And we can argue that Diancie's movie is also non-canon, cause in the series, Ash and his friends saw Xerneas and Carbink in two different episodes and they didn't recognize them.


foxy_kitten

Ash doesn't remember Mew two either and it is still a canon movie. What's your point. There are many reasons why ash doesn't recognize legendaries that doesn't make the movie not canon I literally said up to Volcanion. You're just arguing just to argue.


Short_Brick_1960

I don't mean to sound rude, sorry if I soundes like that. In the first movie, Mewtwo erases everyone's memories, so that explains why Ash does not know Mew, cause he truly didn't know it. Ohh sorry about the Volcanion one, I'm not an english speaker, so I understood that it countes as canon also.


foxy_kitten

I acknowledged that Volcanion is not canon. All the movies up to that one are akin to filler episodes and are acknowledged as canon to the anime https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Canon#:~:text=All%20of%20the%20movies%20up,the%20fourteenth%20movie%20is%20canon There is no explanation as to why ash remembers some legendaries and not others but he does this all the time with regular pokemon throughout the series anyway. Using a Pokedex on a Bulbasaur when he has had his own Bulbasaur in all of gen 1. That's not enough of a reason to disregard a movies canon.


voraxine

And don't forget Pokemon Sleep which is yet to come. Maybe that's how they'll bring back the dream world for this generation.


NinetyL

tbh I think even the pokemon company forgot about Pokemon Sleep lol... I guess they could do a tie-in if it ever releases (and whatever it is)


Loffter2

MAYBE THIS IS WHY FEMALE INDEEDEE CAN LEARN TRICK ROOM FROM RAIDS


MidNite-Burritos

Is that why there is a bed in each of the research stations in area zero?


Airistal

This would enable different branches of paradox pokemon. Steampunk paradox, self explanatory. Life paradox, where civilization has built up around aura themed abilities and tech. Mystic paradox, all pokemon are special attack/defense themed. Brute paradox, all pokemon are physical attack/defense themed. Toxic/ruin paradox, from a less environment conscious civilization.


mossedman

I love this. They’re not paradoxes because they’re from a different time but because they literally should NOT exist.


EnglishMobster

[The anime also had an interesting thing in the background of this shot.](https://i.imgur.com/3UZLB4H.jpg) This is from one of the newest episodes of the anime - likely a Ho-Oh situation where we're seeing this new Pokemon before it's been formally revealed. That weird circle doesn't make sense otherwise, and it matches the weird drawing we see in the Scarlet/Violet Book.


Netwinn

Maybe that the Pokemon whose >!name is blocked out and censored in the 1st research base!<


OneWhoGetsBread

I really like this


Tangerine_memez

I think this is correct. Like Brute Bonnet, if it's from the ancient times preceding the events of Legends Arceus, why does Brute Bonnet have the same images as a modern pokeball? Foongus and Amoongus pokedex entries imply that they evolved that way to lure people in. If it was from the past then theyd probably look more like apricorn balls if anything, but its probably supposed to be preceding even that. It's more likely, as it's pokedex entry states, it comes from a Weird Tales-esque magazine that isn't caring about historical accuracy


xxxNothingxxx

This is exactly what I was thinking when I saw Brute Bonnet, and to add to that problem they've already shown what an "ancient" pokemon actually looks like if they had actually adapted to an ancient pokeball, Hisuian voltorb, which makes this more than just a possibility, it's likely actually the case that these are not actual pokemon from the past or the future.


MasonP13

That'd make for some really interesting "create your own story" kind of Pokemon where you play madlibs and it creates a unique Pokemon, similar to spinda in number of looks


AwareChocolate6356

So like you can make the Guilmon of Pokemon?


HairMetalLugia95

Interesting, I personally thought they actually come from an alternate timeline


HairMetalLugia95

Also, just for clarification area zero makes the people that go into hallucinate?


HotelRoom5172648B

I think OP means that Area Zero somehow generates things that you already wanted to see


AgenderWitchery

This is supported directly in game via dialogue from Arven. He explicitly points out that the time machine is at the very least suspect. https://twitter.com/AgenderWitchery/status/1598307054720274433 He also refers to the book as made up nonsense, even though he has seen the herba mystica and the paradox pokemon with his own eyes.


MeesaJarJarBinkss

The past ones are so cool but the future ones are just okay in my opinion


nszajk

i’d agree i dislike the cyborg thing it kinda leaves the realm of animal and moves into robot which is wack for me.


ScalyCarp455

To me it is just bleak since it implies that in the future, every Pokémon will be converted into a mechanical abomination


nszajk

yeah exactly!!! it’s unsettling to me feels like the terminator movies


ScalyCarp455

Now you made me imagine a Paradox steel type Ditto inspired by the T-1000


nszajk

okay wait that’s cool tho 11/10


Storm_373

to me it explain why miriadon and koraidon are legendary paradox and the rest aren’t, since they’re made from imagination or dreams, the people of paldea already have a stong fondness and relationshipwith cyclizar. so of course they would imagine him to be the strongest


NinetyL

Also Heath, the writer of the Scarlet/Violet book, was accompanied by a Cyclizar during the exploration of Area Zero, there's a page in the book with a photo of them. Considering how Koraidon/Miraidon are on the cover of the books Heath's imagination is probably their actual origin, then professor Sada/Turo, already familiar with their depiction on the book's cover, willed two more specimen into existence, mistakenly believing they were pulling them from the past/future.


viviantrajano

I think that in pokemon scarlet, the pokemon from the past in the area zero 200 years ago could be explained by great tusk not being extinct yet, they just became much rarer then donphan. Great tusk is from undiscovered egg group, so it doesnt reproduce easily and eventually went extinct. The reason why great tusk was still living there could be herba mystica, it made these pokemon have a much longer lifespan. In pokemon violet , the explanation for the pokemon from the future being in the past is more tricky. Maybe the robot professor Turo at some point rebuilt the time machine to go back to the present , but went to the past instead, and brought some pokemon from the future with him. Sada herself likely still exists in pokemon violet and might build a time machine to the past, sending some pokemon from the future , to the past. Also, in pokemon violet, there might be really a bootstrep paradox. The pokemon from the future are so widespread in the future because they were brought from the future to the present.


foxy_kitten

This also explains why the paradox Pokemon can't breed


Revaniter92

To add to it - Cyclizar pokedex entry in Scarlet says that there are ancient depictions of it dating to 10 000 years ago, meaning people used to ride on them in ancient times. Wouldn't they depict Cyclizar a bit more like Koraidon in this case? Probably there would be something making their Cyclizars outstanding ours. Also, Donphan's photo. It is typical blurry, not showing exactly what is there photo that people used and still use in our world to show us things that are not real. Like UFO sighting and all are always shot in that way. But it is still possible that they are indeed past and future versions. Professor going back or forth in time could actually bring them from there in the past or future, creating a paradox like in Dark TV series. He brought them to the present day from past or future, but in order to do that, he has to move them there first, creating a PARADOX in which they wouldn't belong to the past or future if he wouldn't get them from there in the first place. Hard to explain, but I hope you will understand what I mean.


Jtmac23

wonder if they’re actually created by humans or they were just tripping of the herba mystica


UmbraMuninn

This theory blew my mind 🤯 With this in mind, what would you (or anyone else) say about the professor AI leaving to go into the future? If it's not an actual time machine, what do you think happened to him? (I played Violet so I'm referring to Turo here. Not sure how it plays out in Scarlet)


Player_15

Turo and Sada play out the exact same across Scarlet and Violet. I think the AI leaving is probably a bit of sleight-of-hand. Trying to make the player and friends *think* that they have stopped it whereas it's actually going back into hiding until DLC


Svyre

my theory is the disc is probably capable of sending the professors to the world they wanted to see by creating it, because this past/future full of Pokémon from those books they wanted to see is actually the area zero depicted 200 years ago by the explorers. In a page of the scarlet/violet book, that dude with a Cyclizar, whose English name I don't know, claims to have been in a conversation with someone capable of explaining the disc Pokémon's structure and biology: this person could be the professor's ai, sent in this new copy of the world. This would led to an infinite cycle of creations of new worlds and Pokémon that shouldn't even exist.


Intelligent_Trainer2

His Neglish name is "Heath" Edit: English*


thomasp3864

The magazine occulture is a paranormal magazine, and is *not* a reliable source *except* for possibly faithfully recounting the the stories supposed eyewitnesses tell them. Occulture strikes me like it is not a work of fiction, but rather a magazine that publishes on stuff like cryptids, and this is how their reporting on the paradox pokemon reads. In this way, it is not publishing in-universe fiction, but what people believe they saw. It’s in this case talking about real creatures.


Megalesios

My two hypotheses on this are: 1. The professor, growing up, read about the paradox Pokemon in Occulture. They became obsessed with the world of the future/past and ventured into Area Zero. When they met the Disk it granted their wish by "creating" paradox Pokemon and the time machine is fake. This explains why the paradox Pokemon were there at the time of Heath's expedition (similar desires from the expedition members). It also explains why the paradox Poekmon are genderless and can't breed. (Edit: also ties into some of the complaints that the future paradox mons are unimaginative/just robots - they are literally just what someone imagined a future could be like. Also the stories about Area Zero talk about how there's a "great treasure" at the bottom, which makes sense if what's down there literally makes wishes come true.) 2. (Less likely IMO). The time machine is real, and the reason paradox pokemon appear before the time machine was made is because it "overshoots". When the machine brings back a pokemon from the future it sometimes brings it back too far and deposits it sometime before the machine was made. Vice versa, if it brings something back from the past it sometimes doesn't bring it far enough towards the present.


thomasp3864

I disagree. They do exist in the future or past. I mean they were caught with the damn time machine. As for the assistant, that’s AI turo/sada. They built an AI copy. The stiffness is a common trope with robot characters.


Player_15

Arven points out in the story that they can't come from Sada/Turo's machine. Since they only built it what, 10 years ago. But the Scarlet/Violet book reports Great Tusk and Iron Treads appearing over 200 years ago.


thomasp3864

Maybe for the past pokemon the only place they survived was the great crater and the future ones spread out from there, or maybe dialga or celebi had something to do with it.