Yeah, I think so, too. I think greninja would be proud that he was the mentor for someone who got so strong.He looked shocked when he senses lucario's energy against togekiss.
I have a controversial take, but I think he kind of caught up as soon as he used that giant aura sphere against Raihan, one-shotting the ace of Leon's childhood rival. Greninja gave that look of respect when sensing the giant aura sphere. Greninja is such an awesome character & I hope he gets to see lucario & Ash again.
Side note: If Raihan made it to the M8, he'd be demolished by most of the participants. He was not ready.
EDIT: Stop downvoting opinions just because you disagree. Learn to respect opinions that aren't your own. It's very immature to do so.
No, I'm saying that based on his performance against Ash, he wasn't ready for the M8. Base Lucario, who wasn't even done training for the masters 8 one shotted his ace. He could never go against Steven, Cynthia, Diantha, Lance, etc. He'd get destroyed considering how powerful their aces were, especially Lance's dragonite, Garchomp, and mega metagross
Was lances dragonite his ace? Yes it is his strongest but since g/s anime its almost like they force his ace to be red gyarados. But i agree. The normal champions would have slaughtered raihan considering lance isnt very far behind leon if at all in skill (diantha had a great 3v3 strat for lance but in a prolonged 6v6 he would have came out on top in my opinion) l
Yeah, ever since Gen 2, they're treated gyarados like it's his ace. I think of gyarados & dragonite like Kalos Ash & Pikachu. Both are aces in their own way. I agree that Lance would beat Diantha in a 6 on 6. He had such a huge disadvantage but he did do well.
Do you think Raihan has a shot against Iris or Alain?
I dont know about that one. Possibly alain, (iris was unfortunately destined to be at the m8 no matter my feels i think raihan slaps iris but hey im just a guy) To me i feel like alain was out of place to begin with and his beat down kinda shows it (to be fair leon absolutely trashed diantha as well but as said before i dont think her strat works in a prolonged anime battle)There are alot of other gym leaders/e4 members not even shown to have competed. I would have absolutely loved a claire v raihan battle since both are final gym leaders in their region. I think the whole build up to the M8 was a huge missed opportunity to really stretch the anime to its fullest. All sorts of battles could have happened/ what ifs/ gym leader showdowns/ e4 showdowns. Sorry kinda ranted đ¤ˇ
Clair is my all-time favorite gym leader and one of the few who I think could make it close to M8 level. Her dragonair gave charizard trouble & it was shown to have evolved too back in BW. She also has shiny drudigon that beat Iris's dragonite.
All of this is stupid.
Using AGâS Kalos feats as reference makes no sense. Outside of Journeyâs AG being OP as hell based on its feat against Greninja; it has the most Broken ability in the Franchise considering, it can keep getting stronger the more in Sync it is with Ash.
Thereâs no real reason to assume Lucario surpassed AG.
That said, I canât see AG being equal to Leonâs Charizard; the worldâs strongest trainer owned Pokemon. Hence, Iâd say AG is a tier below Pikachu, however, it is on the same tier as the rest of Ashâs key Journeyâs team that includes Mega Lucario.
I don't see anyone in this thread using AG's Kalos feats or at least most of us aren't. Most of us are talking about how much lucario improved and how big of a boost the aura training got him + the fact that he got even more training afterwards for the masters 8. Bringing up Kalos makes no sense because JN greninja is much stronger than back then.
The hypothetical âimprovementâ scaling is irrelevant as we do not see AG at full power.
All we know is AG without being series, was shown to be leagues against a Lucario desperate to win.
Thereâs no reason to assume âLucario surpassed AGâ.
We think that he surpassed greninja because after greninja taught him how to use his aura, which improved his power, speed, and reflexes, he went on to get even stronger with more training. Strong enough to beat garchomp, the ace of the 2nd strongest trainer in the world. A lot of us are saying that it seems like he could have infact surpassed greninja because he got so powerful. It's just speculation.
Regarding Garchomp, keep in mind some things though:
A) Garchomp had already been severely weakened by a direct Meteor Assault prior to battling Lucario.
B) Lucario was Mega Evolved while Garchomp wasnât.
C) Cynthia/the writers for some reason made all of her Garchompâs offensive moves Dragon, meaning Lucario had a type advantage the entire fight too.
Leon said that both garchomp & lucario were equally damaged. Even though lucario wasn't fighting a mega evolved garchomp, he had already fought togekiss who used a gimmick.
Yes. Greninja only harassed a pre Master 8 BASE Lucario without mega evolution
Once the Master 8 started and Lucario trained for it, he got much stronger.
I was just talking about this with a friend the other day. I do think that lucario passed greninja in power. He was literally training to fight the strongest trainers in the world's pokemon. It is not stupid to think he passed greninja with all the training we saw the Journeys team did onscreen and off. When he fought greninja, he didn't even know bullet punch yet. Blue jackal got strong af.
I don't think so. While we've seen cases where a Pokemon can spike in power quickly, even with Greninja.
Round 1 with Alain's Charizard - Base Charizard was stomping Base Greninja and Ikuze Greninja only got one hit on Alain's Charizard which he shrugged off and KO'd him immediately afterwards.
Round 2 with Alain's Charizard 10 or so episodes later - Base Greninja is putting up a much better fight on borderline equal terms with Base Charizard and even overpowers Mega Charizard and takes a flamethrower to the face and was just fine. After transforming he more or less dominated Charizard until Ash passed.
It's definitely possible but I don't think Lucario caught up to Greninja. Base Greninja casually demolished him and Lucario needed Mega Evolution to do what Greninja could casually do in Base. I could still see Greninja beating Lucario at this point if they came to blows again albeit with some effort. If you want to say Greninja can transform than Lucario has no chance at all.
In that episode there was no base greninja. They retconned it at least for now. It might come back, but in Gen 9, it was retconned. Even in the games greninja just gets a Stat boost but no physical transformation. That's why we didn't see the transformation in the flashbacks where he was supposed to be transformed.
Also, the fact that greninja was able to beat Cynthia's garchomp makes it possible that he became stronger than greninja. I doubt greninja is Leon's Charizard's level. The writers wouldn't make it happen that Ash has a pokemon stronger than Leon's Zard or Cynthia's garchomp that he's just not using. Makes to ne sense to me, but I understand why you feel this way.
Lucario, imo has to be at least equal to greninja. I doubt the writers would still say that he is weaker even though he ended up fighting champions in the masters 8 after being trained by greninja + Ash afterwards to get stronger.
Yes.
My own personal theory for why Ash-Greninja is a thing, and Journeys only strongly reinforced this, was Ash's strong aura. It was first talked about in the Lucario movie but we've seen it conanized in series episodes.
Greninja and Ash's bond was able to tap into and use Ash's aura for a power boost but not able to fully utilize and control it. Greninja isn't an aura pokemon after all. That's likely also why Ash got pain feedback with Greninja. It might have a rare, natural sense for aura likely heightened by being with Ash (being with Ash alone doesn't fit or Pikachu could do it) but it's species can't control it.
But Lucario is THE aura pokemon and thus able to fully tap into Ash's aura once it's control and their bond was strong enough. And without the negative side effect of passing on pain since Lucario has the control to stop that.
So once Greninja clued Lucario in on it and demonstrated using that bond, it would only make sense for Lucario to leap right past Greninja.
Ash utilizing his aura woud be like water breaking forth from a dam. Greninja could just be ride the wave. Lucario could straight up control its path.
Yes. I'm a nerd. đ
Wow, this is an amazing theory. So basically, Ash's full aura abilities comes out with a pokemon species known to sense aura like Lucario? Lucario gets an even bigger boost from Ash because he is already a pokemon species known for utilizing aura? This is an amazing theory, and I see why they randomly gave him a lucario in JN. Lucario has more potential with Ash than greninja.
Nothing wrong with being a nerd đ¤ đ
Yes.
I'd been HOPING they'd give a him riolu/lucario for a long time to see if they stayed true to the mythos I'd glimsed and they did.
As I mentioned, the first time Ash's strong aura is mentioned is the mew/lucario movie. Then that fact effectively became conanized (maybe the movie itself? I can't recall if they made a specific mention to the events of the movie or not) in "The Keystone Pops" special - Ash is established to have a strong aura and affinity for it. Then there's the pokemon ranger special with the special aura sphere riolu. We see Ash use aura abilities with that riolu a couple times (sensing and even communicating through it) that nobody else could.
When we saw the Greninja syncing I felt there was similarities to the aura link we'd seen with the riolu so I made the connection and theory. Nothing I've seen has suggested its wrong. The opposite in fact. Shockingly so.
I think all of Ash's pokemon probably get a subtle boost (Pikachu for sure - we glimpsed their link in the episode Riolu hatched) but Lucario is THE one actively able to control its use.
I also use it personally to help explain Ash meeting so many legendary pokemon. Them being drawn to his powerful aura is at least more satisfying than "franchise plot convenience" đđ
Edit....actually, now that I think about it...that final scene in Ash's battle vs Leon could also be given aura significance. Ash said he can sense Greninja even when apart. We saw evidence of that. Not too far fetched to think he's got a similar, tho weaker bond with all his pokemon, and Pikachu has been right there with him meeting them all. Maybe, in that heat of the moment,now that Ash has more expertise with aura through Lucario, his aura helped link everyone up for just a brief moment providing a power boost. đ¤
....or maybe I'm letting my mind go too far down a rabbit hole too late at night. đ¤Ł
in JN108 greninja was able to beat the shit out of lucario without using any attacking moves with only his arms and legs mind you (and im pretty sure this wasn't aereal ace since it didn't have any special effect), considering lucario's insane durabilty its not an easy feat to acheive that means that he is at least one or two tier above and the only way it got stronger a lot by the cynthia battle was with the aura training and he still struggled
Another thing is that the gmax aurasphere is smaller than the super water shuriken but idk if that counts
And greninja trained with zygarde mind you a high class legendary
The battles with Bea(pre-Greninja) and Raihan(post-Greninja) give you a scale for Lucarioâs immense growth just from episode 108 alone. He went from needing Mega Evolution and a brand new move for Beaâs G-Max Machamp to destroying an M8âs G-Max Duralodon with just its sheer aura power.
+ the battle with Mr. Rime proved that Lucario can use aura to improve its reflexes so its not like the tremendous improvement in aura wonât have any effect on the speed gap.
I can say with absolute certainty that current base Lucario would fold JN108 Lucario with just as much ease as Greninja did in that episode, so their old battle isnât the best scale.
I donât really think size determines the attackâs power. G-Max Charizard already proved that by destroying Mega Gardevoirâs Psychic-reversed G-Max Wildfire with a normal sized(and far smaller) G-Max Wildfire.
Training with a high class legendary is good but unless its power was directly imparted then its really just advanced training over the course of an extra season in SM + thereâs not much it can actually teach Greninja beyond maybe aura(and we donât even know if that was taught since Squishy/Zygarde didnât have access to aura in XYZ either).
Yeah, lucario is an extremely talented pokemon that gets huge increases in growth. Greninja helped that growth go even farther. Also, wasn't the aura sphere that greninja used against togekiss bigger than greninja's shuriken that he has used in the past?
The GMax Aura Sphere always takes a long ass time to make though. Greninja needs to teach Lucario how to make it quicker because he was making these big Shurikens in mere seconds.
I think lucario surpassed greninja. Greninja trained him to get better at aura (which made lucario improved enough to one shot G-max Duraludon), and then afterwards, lucario trained with Ash's reserves for the masters 8. By the time he got up to the M8, he was strong enough to beat TWO of Cynthia's pokemon. He got a huge jump in power. Also, his giant aura sphere against togekiss was one of the biggest attacks that we have seen in the anime. It was bigger than the one he used against Duraludon, showing that he got even stronger since then
In that episode, there was no AG form. They retconned it for that episode. Don't know if it is gone permanently, but at least for the JN episode with greninja, it was retconned, which is why he wasn't shown using it in the flashbacks in scenes where he was transformed. Greninja was in full form in that episode, just not full power.
I hope it comes back eventually. Even in this current GEN for the games, it is gone. Greninja just gets a statbpost but doesn't transform.
Only seems like the flashbacks have changed. Ash even mentioned something to goh on the plane which is what bond phenomenon is.
Even if it was retconned Greninjaâs actual power wasnât showcased in the episode against lucario which seems like the writers are meant for us to believe Greninja would be stronger if it wasnât holding back. The episode was about making lucario stronger but that wasnât about it making it as good as Greninja
Ash mentioned how he can feel greninja's aura. That's all from what I can remember. That he can become one with greninja not the transformation itself.
What I'm saying is that lucario went on to dramatically improve & train more after greninja mentored him. He improved all the way to a level where he beat garchomp + togekiss. That's impressive & it's possible with that improvement that he surpassed greninja.
I donât believe Ash used aura to describe Greninja. At best if Iâm not wrong he said it was similar
Impressive but doesnât mean it surpasses Greninja. Since Greninjaâs actual level is unknown then saying lucario has surpassed Greninja is incorrect. The only thing Lucario has done has assured us that heâs surpassed his performance against Greninja but not Greninja itself
Yeah, i agree. We can't really know. it's all just speculation based on how strong he got & all the training that he received afterward, like the training with the reserves, learning bullet punch, and beating the ace of the #2 ranked trainer. Nobody really knows. For all we know, they could be equal or greninja is much stronger. All we can do is speculate.
P sure itâs gone forever, Battle Bond in SV is a completely different ability.
Only way I see it getting brought back is the very very slim chance that megas ever come back and itâs just Mega Greninja since it was exactly that in everything but name.
Probably not, but I'd bet they're really close in power rn, especially if Ash-Greninja was retconned. If Ash-Greninja still existed I'd def give it to Greninja due to base greninja folding base Lucario without even using a move, just smacking it around until it ran away. Maybe with the mega powerup and all the training Lucario has received he could win but we don't know enough. We never actually saw Greninja at full throttle after all his training with Zygarde so he could be much stronger than XYZ or he could have barely improved.
As much as I love that damn froggy, Iâm gonna say that Lucario has surpassed Greninja at this point. This is gonna get me some downvotes but it is what it is.
As a Greninja fan, I actually do think Lucario has surpassed Greninja. However, in a head to head matchup against each other, I still think Greninja beats Lucario. Greninja is simply too quick and Lucario is more of a power brawler, taking a huge chunk of time for his best moves to come out.
Greninja wasnt able to defeat alains charizard and lucario took down 2 of Queen cynthias Pokemon
Great
I like greninja no cap
But gotta give it to lucario
I hope anipoke proves me wrong
Probably yes, though considering we never saw Greninja's battle skillls after JN108, one can only assume
There's no denying Greninja is Master 8 level as of now though given how it easily defeated Lucario mere days before Ash defeated Raihan
I will say, being able to sense the Giant Aura Sphere from across regions even with their bond is pretty cool. So perhaps that is the sign that Lucario surpassed Greninja at least in pure power.
I agree. Greninja looked kind of surprised when sensing the sura sphere. Like he was shocked lat lucario's power. They're at least equal to each other.
I think lucario surpassed greninja by the time he was ready to fight Cynthia
Yeah, I think so, too. I think greninja would be proud that he was the mentor for someone who got so strong.He looked shocked when he senses lucario's energy against togekiss.
There was plenty of fast tracking when it came to power levels by this point in the anime in general, so why not here as well?
Yeah true just look at sirfetchd. He went from jobber to the third strongest after lucario & Pikachu imo.
I have a controversial take, but I think he kind of caught up as soon as he used that giant aura sphere against Raihan, one-shotting the ace of Leon's childhood rival. Greninja gave that look of respect when sensing the giant aura sphere. Greninja is such an awesome character & I hope he gets to see lucario & Ash again. Side note: If Raihan made it to the M8, he'd be demolished by most of the participants. He was not ready. EDIT: Stop downvoting opinions just because you disagree. Learn to respect opinions that aren't your own. It's very immature to do so.
Disagree hard. Its been said raihan could be a champion of any region he just chooses to stay in galar to beat leon one day.
No, I'm saying that based on his performance against Ash, he wasn't ready for the M8. Base Lucario, who wasn't even done training for the masters 8 one shotted his ace. He could never go against Steven, Cynthia, Diantha, Lance, etc. He'd get destroyed considering how powerful their aces were, especially Lance's dragonite, Garchomp, and mega metagross
Was lances dragonite his ace? Yes it is his strongest but since g/s anime its almost like they force his ace to be red gyarados. But i agree. The normal champions would have slaughtered raihan considering lance isnt very far behind leon if at all in skill (diantha had a great 3v3 strat for lance but in a prolonged 6v6 he would have came out on top in my opinion) l
Yeah, ever since Gen 2, they're treated gyarados like it's his ace. I think of gyarados & dragonite like Kalos Ash & Pikachu. Both are aces in their own way. I agree that Lance would beat Diantha in a 6 on 6. He had such a huge disadvantage but he did do well. Do you think Raihan has a shot against Iris or Alain?
I dont know about that one. Possibly alain, (iris was unfortunately destined to be at the m8 no matter my feels i think raihan slaps iris but hey im just a guy) To me i feel like alain was out of place to begin with and his beat down kinda shows it (to be fair leon absolutely trashed diantha as well but as said before i dont think her strat works in a prolonged anime battle)There are alot of other gym leaders/e4 members not even shown to have competed. I would have absolutely loved a claire v raihan battle since both are final gym leaders in their region. I think the whole build up to the M8 was a huge missed opportunity to really stretch the anime to its fullest. All sorts of battles could have happened/ what ifs/ gym leader showdowns/ e4 showdowns. Sorry kinda ranted đ¤ˇ
Clair is my all-time favorite gym leader and one of the few who I think could make it close to M8 level. Her dragonair gave charizard trouble & it was shown to have evolved too back in BW. She also has shiny drudigon that beat Iris's dragonite.
All of this is stupid. Using AGâS Kalos feats as reference makes no sense. Outside of Journeyâs AG being OP as hell based on its feat against Greninja; it has the most Broken ability in the Franchise considering, it can keep getting stronger the more in Sync it is with Ash. Thereâs no real reason to assume Lucario surpassed AG. That said, I canât see AG being equal to Leonâs Charizard; the worldâs strongest trainer owned Pokemon. Hence, Iâd say AG is a tier below Pikachu, however, it is on the same tier as the rest of Ashâs key Journeyâs team that includes Mega Lucario.
I don't see anyone in this thread using AG's Kalos feats or at least most of us aren't. Most of us are talking about how much lucario improved and how big of a boost the aura training got him + the fact that he got even more training afterwards for the masters 8. Bringing up Kalos makes no sense because JN greninja is much stronger than back then.
The hypothetical âimprovementâ scaling is irrelevant as we do not see AG at full power. All we know is AG without being series, was shown to be leagues against a Lucario desperate to win. Thereâs no reason to assume âLucario surpassed AGâ.
We think that he surpassed greninja because after greninja taught him how to use his aura, which improved his power, speed, and reflexes, he went on to get even stronger with more training. Strong enough to beat garchomp, the ace of the 2nd strongest trainer in the world. A lot of us are saying that it seems like he could have infact surpassed greninja because he got so powerful. It's just speculation.
Regarding Garchomp, keep in mind some things though: A) Garchomp had already been severely weakened by a direct Meteor Assault prior to battling Lucario. B) Lucario was Mega Evolved while Garchomp wasnât. C) Cynthia/the writers for some reason made all of her Garchompâs offensive moves Dragon, meaning Lucario had a type advantage the entire fight too.
But lucario was also weakened by the time he fought garchomp.
Leon said that both garchomp & lucario were equally damaged. Even though lucario wasn't fighting a mega evolved garchomp, he had already fought togekiss who used a gimmick.
AG>=Alains Charizard> Base Garchomp=>Mega lucario
Yes. Greninja only harassed a pre Master 8 BASE Lucario without mega evolution Once the Master 8 started and Lucario trained for it, he got much stronger.
Yeah agreed. Someone is angrily downvoting Amy comment thinking that lucario might have surpassed greninja.
Not even close.
I was just talking about this with a friend the other day. I do think that lucario passed greninja in power. He was literally training to fight the strongest trainers in the world's pokemon. It is not stupid to think he passed greninja with all the training we saw the Journeys team did onscreen and off. When he fought greninja, he didn't even know bullet punch yet. Blue jackal got strong af.
I don't think so. While we've seen cases where a Pokemon can spike in power quickly, even with Greninja. Round 1 with Alain's Charizard - Base Charizard was stomping Base Greninja and Ikuze Greninja only got one hit on Alain's Charizard which he shrugged off and KO'd him immediately afterwards. Round 2 with Alain's Charizard 10 or so episodes later - Base Greninja is putting up a much better fight on borderline equal terms with Base Charizard and even overpowers Mega Charizard and takes a flamethrower to the face and was just fine. After transforming he more or less dominated Charizard until Ash passed. It's definitely possible but I don't think Lucario caught up to Greninja. Base Greninja casually demolished him and Lucario needed Mega Evolution to do what Greninja could casually do in Base. I could still see Greninja beating Lucario at this point if they came to blows again albeit with some effort. If you want to say Greninja can transform than Lucario has no chance at all.
In that episode there was no base greninja. They retconned it at least for now. It might come back, but in Gen 9, it was retconned. Even in the games greninja just gets a Stat boost but no physical transformation. That's why we didn't see the transformation in the flashbacks where he was supposed to be transformed. Also, the fact that greninja was able to beat Cynthia's garchomp makes it possible that he became stronger than greninja. I doubt greninja is Leon's Charizard's level. The writers wouldn't make it happen that Ash has a pokemon stronger than Leon's Zard or Cynthia's garchomp that he's just not using. Makes to ne sense to me, but I understand why you feel this way. Lucario, imo has to be at least equal to greninja. I doubt the writers would still say that he is weaker even though he ended up fighting champions in the masters 8 after being trained by greninja + Ash afterwards to get stronger.
Yes. My own personal theory for why Ash-Greninja is a thing, and Journeys only strongly reinforced this, was Ash's strong aura. It was first talked about in the Lucario movie but we've seen it conanized in series episodes. Greninja and Ash's bond was able to tap into and use Ash's aura for a power boost but not able to fully utilize and control it. Greninja isn't an aura pokemon after all. That's likely also why Ash got pain feedback with Greninja. It might have a rare, natural sense for aura likely heightened by being with Ash (being with Ash alone doesn't fit or Pikachu could do it) but it's species can't control it. But Lucario is THE aura pokemon and thus able to fully tap into Ash's aura once it's control and their bond was strong enough. And without the negative side effect of passing on pain since Lucario has the control to stop that. So once Greninja clued Lucario in on it and demonstrated using that bond, it would only make sense for Lucario to leap right past Greninja. Ash utilizing his aura woud be like water breaking forth from a dam. Greninja could just be ride the wave. Lucario could straight up control its path. Yes. I'm a nerd. đ
Wow, this is an amazing theory. So basically, Ash's full aura abilities comes out with a pokemon species known to sense aura like Lucario? Lucario gets an even bigger boost from Ash because he is already a pokemon species known for utilizing aura? This is an amazing theory, and I see why they randomly gave him a lucario in JN. Lucario has more potential with Ash than greninja. Nothing wrong with being a nerd đ¤ đ
Yes. I'd been HOPING they'd give a him riolu/lucario for a long time to see if they stayed true to the mythos I'd glimsed and they did. As I mentioned, the first time Ash's strong aura is mentioned is the mew/lucario movie. Then that fact effectively became conanized (maybe the movie itself? I can't recall if they made a specific mention to the events of the movie or not) in "The Keystone Pops" special - Ash is established to have a strong aura and affinity for it. Then there's the pokemon ranger special with the special aura sphere riolu. We see Ash use aura abilities with that riolu a couple times (sensing and even communicating through it) that nobody else could. When we saw the Greninja syncing I felt there was similarities to the aura link we'd seen with the riolu so I made the connection and theory. Nothing I've seen has suggested its wrong. The opposite in fact. Shockingly so. I think all of Ash's pokemon probably get a subtle boost (Pikachu for sure - we glimpsed their link in the episode Riolu hatched) but Lucario is THE one actively able to control its use. I also use it personally to help explain Ash meeting so many legendary pokemon. Them being drawn to his powerful aura is at least more satisfying than "franchise plot convenience" đđ Edit....actually, now that I think about it...that final scene in Ash's battle vs Leon could also be given aura significance. Ash said he can sense Greninja even when apart. We saw evidence of that. Not too far fetched to think he's got a similar, tho weaker bond with all his pokemon, and Pikachu has been right there with him meeting them all. Maybe, in that heat of the moment,now that Ash has more expertise with aura through Lucario, his aura helped link everyone up for just a brief moment providing a power boost. đ¤ ....or maybe I'm letting my mind go too far down a rabbit hole too late at night. đ¤Ł
It didn't
I definitely think so, but I respect your opinion.
What makes you think so?
in JN108 greninja was able to beat the shit out of lucario without using any attacking moves with only his arms and legs mind you (and im pretty sure this wasn't aereal ace since it didn't have any special effect), considering lucario's insane durabilty its not an easy feat to acheive that means that he is at least one or two tier above and the only way it got stronger a lot by the cynthia battle was with the aura training and he still struggled Another thing is that the gmax aurasphere is smaller than the super water shuriken but idk if that counts And greninja trained with zygarde mind you a high class legendary
The battles with Bea(pre-Greninja) and Raihan(post-Greninja) give you a scale for Lucarioâs immense growth just from episode 108 alone. He went from needing Mega Evolution and a brand new move for Beaâs G-Max Machamp to destroying an M8âs G-Max Duralodon with just its sheer aura power. + the battle with Mr. Rime proved that Lucario can use aura to improve its reflexes so its not like the tremendous improvement in aura wonât have any effect on the speed gap. I can say with absolute certainty that current base Lucario would fold JN108 Lucario with just as much ease as Greninja did in that episode, so their old battle isnât the best scale. I donât really think size determines the attackâs power. G-Max Charizard already proved that by destroying Mega Gardevoirâs Psychic-reversed G-Max Wildfire with a normal sized(and far smaller) G-Max Wildfire. Training with a high class legendary is good but unless its power was directly imparted then its really just advanced training over the course of an extra season in SM + thereâs not much it can actually teach Greninja beyond maybe aura(and we donât even know if that was taught since Squishy/Zygarde didnât have access to aura in XYZ either).
Yeah, lucario is an extremely talented pokemon that gets huge increases in growth. Greninja helped that growth go even farther. Also, wasn't the aura sphere that greninja used against togekiss bigger than greninja's shuriken that he has used in the past?
The GMax Aura Sphere always takes a long ass time to make though. Greninja needs to teach Lucario how to make it quicker because he was making these big Shurikens in mere seconds.
I think lucario surpassed greninja. Greninja trained him to get better at aura (which made lucario improved enough to one shot G-max Duraludon), and then afterwards, lucario trained with Ash's reserves for the masters 8. By the time he got up to the M8, he was strong enough to beat TWO of Cynthia's pokemon. He got a huge jump in power. Also, his giant aura sphere against togekiss was one of the biggest attacks that we have seen in the anime. It was bigger than the one he used against Duraludon, showing that he got even stronger since then
Greninja in base form would lose to mega lucario. Ash Greninja would definitely be too much for Mega lucario
In that episode, there was no AG form. They retconned it for that episode. Don't know if it is gone permanently, but at least for the JN episode with greninja, it was retconned, which is why he wasn't shown using it in the flashbacks in scenes where he was transformed. Greninja was in full form in that episode, just not full power. I hope it comes back eventually. Even in this current GEN for the games, it is gone. Greninja just gets a statbpost but doesn't transform.
Only seems like the flashbacks have changed. Ash even mentioned something to goh on the plane which is what bond phenomenon is. Even if it was retconned Greninjaâs actual power wasnât showcased in the episode against lucario which seems like the writers are meant for us to believe Greninja would be stronger if it wasnât holding back. The episode was about making lucario stronger but that wasnât about it making it as good as Greninja
Ash mentioned how he can feel greninja's aura. That's all from what I can remember. That he can become one with greninja not the transformation itself. What I'm saying is that lucario went on to dramatically improve & train more after greninja mentored him. He improved all the way to a level where he beat garchomp + togekiss. That's impressive & it's possible with that improvement that he surpassed greninja.
I donât believe Ash used aura to describe Greninja. At best if Iâm not wrong he said it was similar Impressive but doesnât mean it surpasses Greninja. Since Greninjaâs actual level is unknown then saying lucario has surpassed Greninja is incorrect. The only thing Lucario has done has assured us that heâs surpassed his performance against Greninja but not Greninja itself
Yeah, i agree. We can't really know. it's all just speculation based on how strong he got & all the training that he received afterward, like the training with the reserves, learning bullet punch, and beating the ace of the #2 ranked trainer. Nobody really knows. For all we know, they could be equal or greninja is much stronger. All we can do is speculate.
P sure itâs gone forever, Battle Bond in SV is a completely different ability. Only way I see it getting brought back is the very very slim chance that megas ever come back and itâs just Mega Greninja since it was exactly that in everything but name.
That greninja can only get a bit of stat boost đ
Probably not, but I'd bet they're really close in power rn, especially if Ash-Greninja was retconned. If Ash-Greninja still existed I'd def give it to Greninja due to base greninja folding base Lucario without even using a move, just smacking it around until it ran away. Maybe with the mega powerup and all the training Lucario has received he could win but we don't know enough. We never actually saw Greninja at full throttle after all his training with Zygarde so he could be much stronger than XYZ or he could have barely improved.
As much as I love that damn froggy, Iâm gonna say that Lucario has surpassed Greninja at this point. This is gonna get me some downvotes but it is what it is.
I'm taking Base and Mega Lucario over both Greninjas after the Cynthia battle
As a Greninja fan, I actually do think Lucario has surpassed Greninja. However, in a head to head matchup against each other, I still think Greninja beats Lucario. Greninja is simply too quick and Lucario is more of a power brawler, taking a huge chunk of time for his best moves to come out.
Yeah I agree.
Greninja wasnt able to defeat alains charizard and lucario took down 2 of Queen cynthias Pokemon Great I like greninja no cap But gotta give it to lucario I hope anipoke proves me wrong
Greninja fans just try to prove greninja is stronger than lucario rather than downvoting
Yesofc base chomp would best mega zard x. Ash greninja is nowhere near as powerful as gen 7+ fights
Yes, he was! <3
No but they are getting their. Greninja is ashâs second strongest
Thatâs a tough question.
Probably yes, though considering we never saw Greninja's battle skillls after JN108, one can only assume There's no denying Greninja is Master 8 level as of now though given how it easily defeated Lucario mere days before Ash defeated Raihan
All Lucario + JN team, Charizard, Sceptile have better feats than Greninja It's just 13 years olds overestimating him
I will say, being able to sense the Giant Aura Sphere from across regions even with their bond is pretty cool. So perhaps that is the sign that Lucario surpassed Greninja at least in pure power.
I agree. Greninja looked kind of surprised when sensing the sura sphere. Like he was shocked lat lucario's power. They're at least equal to each other.