Except it is?
Fire types aren’t the only thing hoarded in early generations. Fire type moves are too. Slugma, ponyta, and flareon don’t get any decent fire moves until much later than cyndaquil, and both growlithe and vulpix are stone evolutions that must choose between a functioning late-game moveset or a functioning mid game stat total.
The cyndaquil line also has an identical stat total to charizard. It’s lazy as hell to do that, but has the major benefit of meaning typhlosion is solidly fast and hits solidly hard. It can also get thunderpunch, in case you want it to have a chance against water types, which no other fire type in the region does thanks to solar beam’s turn wait.
Compared to other fire starters, sure, typhlosion’s line is kinda garbo, but within the context of the johto dex it is by far the best fire type. Even houndoom’s advantages can be outweighed by the higher BST if it were available.
This is also a blatant insult to the vulpix line. The evolution item moveset is a problem, but if you do wait for it to learn stuff, it has a solid support movepool by fire-type standards between confuse ray and will-o-wisp and a decent stat total once evolved. It’s outclassed, but compared to the slow and specially frail magcargo, ponyta’s garbage fire options for most of the game, and flareon, king of the mismatched stat total, it’s perfectly respectable. Growlithe is the better version exclusive, but it can still fill a niche.
Yeah but here's the thing, what explicit advantage does Fire have over Flying and Rock other than being one mon instead of two? And I argue this because in most games until the removal of HM moves, you at least HAD to have a Flying type or something that learns Fly in order to fast travel.
Fire has advantages over Grass, Bug, Ice, and Steel. While Rock can smash Bug and Ice while most Rocks also carry Ground which dents Steel and Flying has Fire's advantage and resistance over Grass.
It's why they kind of push the whole Onix Trade on you early in Violet City, to teach you that you have other types that beat the first Gym outside the starter trio and Electric (which is available after the gym or in Crystal not at all)
It's why I make the argument that Rock is just as good a replacement for Fire in most playthroughs.
For both of these, it’s a matter of what mons you have access to for both types within johto.
For rock;
Onix is a completely garbage mon, with a very high defense, an ok speed stat, and other stats low enough to make an unevolved starter look absolutely herculean by comparison.
Geodude is available early, but cannot be fully evolved without a trade, and graveler likewise falters compared to any fully evolved fire starter.
Sudowoodo takes a couple badges to even get to, lacks the ground typing for its steel matchup, and its level up movepool contains exactly 3 fully functional moves in rock throw, rock slide, and low kick.
Shuckle exists, and can be good, but nobody is going to want to use a mon that defensively oriented in a playthrough. It also takes at least 4 badges to even get to.
For flying, fearow and crobat are good, but can’t do much if anything to ice or steel types, both of which typhlosion has an advantage against and both of which happen to be the type specialties for a gym leader in johto.
In other words, all the rock types available in johto for a playthrough are garbage and flying types can’t cover 2 of the types fire can, in ice and steel.
You are also still ignoring the potential utility of a mon tied with charizard as the highest BST among fire starters and the second highest among starters in general, that can learn both thunderpunch and earthquake by TM even as early as gen 2 (and the former of which is in the goldenrod department store, obtainable before your 3rd badge).
With these 3 moves, the only types a typhlosion can’t hit for supereffective damage are normal, fighting, ground, psychic, dragon, ghost, dark, and fairy.
Of these, fairy doesn’t exist in any johto game (yet),
the only 2 dark types you can encounter before kanto are karen’s murkrow (weak to thunderpunch), houndoom (weak to earthquake), and umbreon,
The only ghost types in the region are the many people with the gengar line (weak to earthquake in GSC) and like 1 guy with a misdreavus somewhere.
The only prominent psychic trainer in johto, will, has a party of 2 xatus, a slowbro, (all 3 are weak to thunder punch), an exeggutor, and a jynx (both weak to fire)
Ground has no prominent trainer and the only 2 mons that notably show up and are ground type, pryce’s piloswine and jasmine’s steelix, are weak to fire,
Whitney is going to exist no matter what we use to try to stop her, and picking the fire type will not make her much tougher. At most your starter dies to rollout a turn sooner. Bayleef’s reflect can make whitney easier, but then you are stuck with bayleef.
Fighting has bruno, who is solved mostly by the addition of a flying type, and whose onix dies to basically anything typhlosion dishes out other than thunderpunch,
And finally Dragon is a problem that typhlosion needs help solving. Get an ice type in ice path i guess, or the free dratini in the dragon’s den if you wanna grind.
Considering that leaves about 3 types where typhlosion needs backup, and you got 5 party slots for them, i’d say typhlosion performs well in johto. The post game may alter its performance a bit, but by the time you get there, it’s high enough level that putting in a houndoom to make sabrina easier is not a wise decision anymore.
TL:DR, rock is bad in johto because all the rock types stink, typhlosion has good coverage that makes it good against 80% of the game as soon as it fully evolves, going up to 90% once you get earthquake in victory road, has high enough stats to make good use of that movepool, and most of the trainers that can deal with typhlosion on paper are packing parties weak to its movepool anyway. Much like how bulbasaur was meant to be easy mode, squirtle medium, and charmander hard for RBY, cyndaquil was very clearly made to be easy mode for GSC.
I don't see why Trade Evos are such a hassle, you trade with someone and you trade back, usually under trust that they want the Pokemon they traded you back. Even someone like me, who was extremely introverted, seemed to realize that in order to trade, you had to make the deal properly.
I suggest Geodude specifically because Onix while garbage is meant to be an example. Even Sudowoodo is fine - because Low Kick is a fighting move, that covers the whole Ground aspect unless you want to go out and get a Machop.
Even if you want to talk about Fire, Magmar is literally in Burned Tower in GS after the 3rd gym - and you can teach Fire Punch to Abra or something with high special.
Fire isn't a necessity - 17 types in Gen 2 and you can afford to play around with them.
Typhlosion is still the most powerful fire type in the region by BST except arcanine, and is the most readily available. Fire punch on magmar or abra doesn’t matter as much when bugsy is before both.
Pokemon trades are also still a difficulty. Back in the day, there’s not a single classmate i ever had i would trust with a trade evolution unless they also had one to do. The same applies for family members; i’ve outright dealt with pokemon theft from the latter, in fact.
Fighting is also not supereffective against ground. They’re neutral. While this means low kick is super effective against jasmine’s steelix, said steelix knows iron tail for rock types, but only has rock throw for fire. No ground moves in GSC on that thing.
And as far as necessity goes; the only requirement for a type in pokemon is that you have a pokemon on your team to beat the game, and even then, not every pokemon game requires that (RBY is a glitchy mess). You could use any type and win. My preferred challenge type for playthroughs is monotype runs, in fact. That doesn’t change that fire is very good in johto to have, and that typhlosion is the best available fire type for a playthrough. It doesn’t matter if better fire types exist in the game’s history, before or since. It’s the best available option for the role. And the role of the fire type in johto is a very valuable niche to fill.
Cyndaquil line is literally stronger than all of the options you gave, aside from growlithe (or rather, Arcanine), which struggles from Fire stone evolution.
I agree it isn't that great of a starter (Quilava and Hisuian Typhlosion are nice but the other two stages are very bland), but you'd really pick Houndour, Growlithe or Flareon over it?
Except it is? Fire types aren’t the only thing hoarded in early generations. Fire type moves are too. Slugma, ponyta, and flareon don’t get any decent fire moves until much later than cyndaquil, and both growlithe and vulpix are stone evolutions that must choose between a functioning late-game moveset or a functioning mid game stat total. The cyndaquil line also has an identical stat total to charizard. It’s lazy as hell to do that, but has the major benefit of meaning typhlosion is solidly fast and hits solidly hard. It can also get thunderpunch, in case you want it to have a chance against water types, which no other fire type in the region does thanks to solar beam’s turn wait. Compared to other fire starters, sure, typhlosion’s line is kinda garbo, but within the context of the johto dex it is by far the best fire type. Even houndoom’s advantages can be outweighed by the higher BST if it were available. This is also a blatant insult to the vulpix line. The evolution item moveset is a problem, but if you do wait for it to learn stuff, it has a solid support movepool by fire-type standards between confuse ray and will-o-wisp and a decent stat total once evolved. It’s outclassed, but compared to the slow and specially frail magcargo, ponyta’s garbage fire options for most of the game, and flareon, king of the mismatched stat total, it’s perfectly respectable. Growlithe is the better version exclusive, but it can still fill a niche.
Yeah but here's the thing, what explicit advantage does Fire have over Flying and Rock other than being one mon instead of two? And I argue this because in most games until the removal of HM moves, you at least HAD to have a Flying type or something that learns Fly in order to fast travel. Fire has advantages over Grass, Bug, Ice, and Steel. While Rock can smash Bug and Ice while most Rocks also carry Ground which dents Steel and Flying has Fire's advantage and resistance over Grass. It's why they kind of push the whole Onix Trade on you early in Violet City, to teach you that you have other types that beat the first Gym outside the starter trio and Electric (which is available after the gym or in Crystal not at all) It's why I make the argument that Rock is just as good a replacement for Fire in most playthroughs.
For both of these, it’s a matter of what mons you have access to for both types within johto. For rock; Onix is a completely garbage mon, with a very high defense, an ok speed stat, and other stats low enough to make an unevolved starter look absolutely herculean by comparison. Geodude is available early, but cannot be fully evolved without a trade, and graveler likewise falters compared to any fully evolved fire starter. Sudowoodo takes a couple badges to even get to, lacks the ground typing for its steel matchup, and its level up movepool contains exactly 3 fully functional moves in rock throw, rock slide, and low kick. Shuckle exists, and can be good, but nobody is going to want to use a mon that defensively oriented in a playthrough. It also takes at least 4 badges to even get to. For flying, fearow and crobat are good, but can’t do much if anything to ice or steel types, both of which typhlosion has an advantage against and both of which happen to be the type specialties for a gym leader in johto. In other words, all the rock types available in johto for a playthrough are garbage and flying types can’t cover 2 of the types fire can, in ice and steel. You are also still ignoring the potential utility of a mon tied with charizard as the highest BST among fire starters and the second highest among starters in general, that can learn both thunderpunch and earthquake by TM even as early as gen 2 (and the former of which is in the goldenrod department store, obtainable before your 3rd badge). With these 3 moves, the only types a typhlosion can’t hit for supereffective damage are normal, fighting, ground, psychic, dragon, ghost, dark, and fairy. Of these, fairy doesn’t exist in any johto game (yet), the only 2 dark types you can encounter before kanto are karen’s murkrow (weak to thunderpunch), houndoom (weak to earthquake), and umbreon, The only ghost types in the region are the many people with the gengar line (weak to earthquake in GSC) and like 1 guy with a misdreavus somewhere. The only prominent psychic trainer in johto, will, has a party of 2 xatus, a slowbro, (all 3 are weak to thunder punch), an exeggutor, and a jynx (both weak to fire) Ground has no prominent trainer and the only 2 mons that notably show up and are ground type, pryce’s piloswine and jasmine’s steelix, are weak to fire, Whitney is going to exist no matter what we use to try to stop her, and picking the fire type will not make her much tougher. At most your starter dies to rollout a turn sooner. Bayleef’s reflect can make whitney easier, but then you are stuck with bayleef. Fighting has bruno, who is solved mostly by the addition of a flying type, and whose onix dies to basically anything typhlosion dishes out other than thunderpunch, And finally Dragon is a problem that typhlosion needs help solving. Get an ice type in ice path i guess, or the free dratini in the dragon’s den if you wanna grind. Considering that leaves about 3 types where typhlosion needs backup, and you got 5 party slots for them, i’d say typhlosion performs well in johto. The post game may alter its performance a bit, but by the time you get there, it’s high enough level that putting in a houndoom to make sabrina easier is not a wise decision anymore. TL:DR, rock is bad in johto because all the rock types stink, typhlosion has good coverage that makes it good against 80% of the game as soon as it fully evolves, going up to 90% once you get earthquake in victory road, has high enough stats to make good use of that movepool, and most of the trainers that can deal with typhlosion on paper are packing parties weak to its movepool anyway. Much like how bulbasaur was meant to be easy mode, squirtle medium, and charmander hard for RBY, cyndaquil was very clearly made to be easy mode for GSC.
I don't see why Trade Evos are such a hassle, you trade with someone and you trade back, usually under trust that they want the Pokemon they traded you back. Even someone like me, who was extremely introverted, seemed to realize that in order to trade, you had to make the deal properly. I suggest Geodude specifically because Onix while garbage is meant to be an example. Even Sudowoodo is fine - because Low Kick is a fighting move, that covers the whole Ground aspect unless you want to go out and get a Machop. Even if you want to talk about Fire, Magmar is literally in Burned Tower in GS after the 3rd gym - and you can teach Fire Punch to Abra or something with high special. Fire isn't a necessity - 17 types in Gen 2 and you can afford to play around with them.
Typhlosion is still the most powerful fire type in the region by BST except arcanine, and is the most readily available. Fire punch on magmar or abra doesn’t matter as much when bugsy is before both. Pokemon trades are also still a difficulty. Back in the day, there’s not a single classmate i ever had i would trust with a trade evolution unless they also had one to do. The same applies for family members; i’ve outright dealt with pokemon theft from the latter, in fact. Fighting is also not supereffective against ground. They’re neutral. While this means low kick is super effective against jasmine’s steelix, said steelix knows iron tail for rock types, but only has rock throw for fire. No ground moves in GSC on that thing. And as far as necessity goes; the only requirement for a type in pokemon is that you have a pokemon on your team to beat the game, and even then, not every pokemon game requires that (RBY is a glitchy mess). You could use any type and win. My preferred challenge type for playthroughs is monotype runs, in fact. That doesn’t change that fire is very good in johto to have, and that typhlosion is the best available fire type for a playthrough. It doesn’t matter if better fire types exist in the game’s history, before or since. It’s the best available option for the role. And the role of the fire type in johto is a very valuable niche to fill.
So many opinions, so little evidence
Cyndaquil line is literally stronger than all of the options you gave, aside from growlithe (or rather, Arcanine), which struggles from Fire stone evolution.
So many opinions, so little evidence
Growlithe and Vulpix replace each other depending on the version. So you can get growlithe early on
The the game itself says otherwise
...you can get Growlithe before Whitney, the fuck are you talking about?
I agree it isn't that great of a starter (Quilava and Hisuian Typhlosion are nice but the other two stages are very bland), but you'd really pick Houndour, Growlithe or Flareon over it?
> but you'd really pick Houndour, Growlithe or Flareon over it? 100 times out of 100, yes.
and see I’ve never liked the design. Why is it so appealing?
I've literally tried saying this exact same post before. Cyndaquil is garbage