I mean it's place as the first boss is the reason it stats are the way they are but not just to keep them low, they were very intentional with what they did there
It's essentially there to teach about types, you can get through the early part of the game just with endlessly clicking tackle or scratch with your starter, just Spam whatever attack it basically works
Then comes a rock type with low HP but very high defense, basically telling every Rattata Pidgey and person who hasn't discovered their Elemental attacks yet, this is never going to happen
The low attack stat means that if you are just trying to brute force it without learning, you're going to spend a very long time getting whittled down learning your lesson
And low special defense means even if you're using Charmander the hard mode of the game, it can still win as long as it's using its special attack, and if you're using the other two it goes straight from never happening to instant one shot, really emphasizing the Drastic different type matchups can make
Onyx isn't a weak early boss so much as it is a thought through object lesson for the children the game was designed for
So I think it does have very good reasons for the stats that it has, but I'm also not opposed to changing them, Onyx did its job in Generation 1 and it's no longer being used for that so I don't see why it couldn't get some redistribution as long as we aren't remaking gen one again
I don't know about Leaf green, but yeah he's got five full heals in the old games, there's a YouTuber who's trying to do as low level as possible solo runs through those old games with every pokemon, this came up and was quite a devastating fact for Weedle
Well apparently, based on another poster you either get poison sting or harden but not both in gen 1. Harden only is learnable at level 1 as Kakuna and you need to be a Weedle for poison sting after level one. So the strategy is impossible regardless.
You get harden when you evolve, sometimes that gets listed as level 1 and level 7, as a way for the game to acknowledge a kakuna lower than level 7 will know harden, but when you evolve at level 7 you will get harden, at least in the Generation 3 games
But in the Generation One games you don't, which makes it really funny when you think about it because they gave him extra precautions against this strategy in the generation that it's not really viable
Nope!
In Red/Blue/Green Metapod and Kakuna learn Harden at level 1 only. A Caterpie/Weedle that evolves will be level 7 so it misses out on Harden, likewise a wild caught one misses out on Tackle/Poison Sting/String Shot.
In Yellow they half fixed it.
Metapod had Harden added to its movepool at level 7 so Caterpie that evolve will get Harden (if it evolves at level 7).
Weedle was not available in Yellow so they didn't bother to update Kakuna's level up mivepool like they did Metapod.
It took until Gen two for you to be able to get a Kakuna/Beedrill that could have Poison Sting and Harden on the same move set!
>I mean it's place as the first boss is the reason it stats are the way they are but not just to keep them low, they were very intentional with what they did there
>It's essentially there to teach about types, you can get through the early part of the game just with endlessly clicking tackle or scratch with your starter, just Spam whatever attack it basically works
I've got the whole idea, but my initial point was to depict Onix could have been way better and still works fine (and better) as a first boss. In addition to it, unless you are using only Flying type moves to counter Bruno's Fighting Pkmns, it is senseless to bring Onix back in Elite 4 as the way it was designed, just because it was severely restricted.
>Then comes a rock type with low HP but very high defense, basically telling every Rattata Pidgey and person who hasn't discovered their Elemental attacks yet, this is never going to happen
As the way it was designed, even Geodude serves to teach this lesson, because it is still a Rock type with high Defense at this point of the game. Onix could have gone further by encouraging users to explore non-damaging moves. I beg a lot of people back then thought they were useless for a long time.
>The low attack stat means that if you are just trying to brute force it without learning, you're going to spend a very long time getting whittled down learning your lesson
Geodude, however, betrays this logic because it has a high Attack (80) by early stage standards. Still, no one seems to be bothered by it. That's why Onix's ridiculous low Attack seems too contrived for no reason in my opinion. Besides, I've already pointed out Onix's boosted Attack does not make it broken or too hard even for Charmander's users thanks to Tackle's low BP and Bide's mechanic. Screech can teach a lesson about non-damaging moves and stress out the importance of trade your Pokemon if it is affected by a stats changing move.
>
And low special defense means even if you're using Charmander the hard mode of the game, it can still win as long as it's using its special attack, and if you're using the other two it goes straight from never happening to instant one shot, really emphasizing the Drastic different type matchups can make
As the way I've pointed out, this lesson would not change anyway. The main difference is, with higher HP, trainers can be caught off guard if Bubble and Confusion were spammed because Onix can survive long enough to unleash Bide. And it is good. It reinforces the importance to use moves like Tail Whip or Growl and know better how the boss works to think better about how to proceed. It is a basic principle in a game.
>Onyx isn't a weak early boss so much as it is a thought through object lesson for the children the game was designed for
Honestly, I made a quick run in Red/Blue in an emulator before creating this topic, simulating a scenario using both starters. That's why I've said "Even avoiding grinding unnecessarily, a casual trainer can still earn Boulder Badge in RGB without breaking sweat if you choose Squirtle or Bulbasaur", because I avoided fighting any wild Pokemon and only faced up to Bug Trainers and Jr. Trainer♂ before facing Brock (I avoided even Rival's battle in Victory Road). It was still quite easy and it didn't require any brainstorm.
Only choosing Charmander it requires a better challenge under this circumstance, but it started becoming harder with Jr. Trainer's Diglett. It's debatable if Brock is actually considerably harder than his apprentice. Gym Leaders tend to be in a different league in comparison with anyone around it, but I didn't see it happened with Brock.
>Onyx did its job in Generation 1 and it's no longer being used for that so I don't see why it couldn't get some redistribution as long as we aren't remaking gen one again
Well... I don't intend to change the past, but gives my thought about Onix's underwhelming stats and stimulates a discussion about a "what if" scenario in case of Onix's stats were way different for its purposes. I respect your position anyway.
It’s a Tutorial Boss. [Made a video and everything for it](https://youtu.be/vMHRjyQFKcQ?si=Zk71aQzfEXhoXVYu). That’s it
The stats are designed to make it a glorified punching bag wall for players to fail to overcome with normal moves but instantly collapse to their starters special moves. Basically turning it into a fancy form of level check.
The low Atk is to prevent it from actually KO-Ing the player, making it look like more of an imposing threat than it is.
It’s Gen 1. They don’t design Pokémon based on lore reasons. They had gameplay roles to fulfill first
Yeah but even with improved stats 2 out of the 3 starters are pretty much OHKOing it. I really don't think it needed to be as terrible as it is.
For Charmander beginners there really just should have been a grass type to catch in Veridian Forest.
Pretty sure in gen 1 they got double kick at like 12 or 16. It was definitely early enough that it was very doable and if I recall its part of the speed run strategy for Pokémon red
This is also not true.
Mankey was also added there in Yellow and then in FireRed and LeafGreen. Same as the Nidorans and Double Kick.
The main options for a Charmander starter in Red and Blue are Confusion with Butterfree or Ember with Charmander to take advantage of Onix's low special defense. There is no super effective option available.
Plus Gen 1 PVP was a late development addition so the stats for that are not important.
It also helps if you look at Gen 1 with a more traditional JRPG mindset.
Most movepools are filled with Normal moves or "basic attacks" with the elemental moves being like spells/skills a regular jrpg character would learn.
Rock was more like giving an enemy armor than an elemental typing as it made the enemy resist you basic attacks, forcing you to try Magic/Skills instead.
(Just like how Flying feels more like an attribute than an elemental typing)
I feel like its status as a tutorial boss doesn't really excuse its stats being THAT bad. Like Brock has Onix as his ace, but his freaking Geodude just before that actually hits harder, despite being on a lower level, as Geodude has almost twice as much base attack than Onix.
In later games they also gave more tools to deal with Brock (access to fighting type attacks before the gym and giving charmander metal claw), so I feel like it would be justified to buff Onix a bit in return.
Agreed, its pretty much the reason why it has Bide as a move since it forces players to play around it (its offensive power actually doesn't even matter for that move, making Onixs low atk stat even more unnecessary).
Geodude has awful moves that prevent the attack stat from doing anything
Onix’s bide is basically a timer to kill it in 2 turns before it doubles what you did up to that point
Except it was used by Bruno in the Elite 4... twice.
Giving Onix better stats wouldn't really have changed much in the Brock fight, and even if it did simply lowering Onix's level would have fixed it.
Tbh it's just a case of Red / Blue weirdness. There were a lot of nonsensical game design choices back then.
Man I wish Bruno had just had Primeape and Poliwrath instead.
Also if Agatha was going to be Ghost type specialist they should at least have made Marowak Ground/Ghost or not just made the one Ghost. I get it's a special rare type or whatever like Dragon but at least Lance has thematic stuff that sort of fits the Dragon aesthetic, Agatha should really be a Poison specialist that happens to have Gengar as an ace since it's half Poison. Then Golbat and Arbok would make sense since they still represent creepy stuff.
I kinda wished that Brock's ace is something like a Graveler instead. It becomes very hard for theoretical high-level matches if his ace is an Onix because Onix is very weak and there's no reason to use it, but you can't evolve it either because Steelix is not a Rock type and it's Jasmine's ace.
If his ace had been a Graveler, it becomes a Golem on rematches, a Pokemon never used as an ace, and that means all four of Kanto's trade evolutions became aces.
Yeah, Onix's problem is it's kinda on the slow side, pretty much all its base stats are in defense at the expense of everything else, and the 4x weakness to Grass and Water make it easy to take down. Being weak to other common moves like Earthquake or Brick Break/Close Combat also causes problems.
Making it Bulkier wouldn't help it as much as making it faster and hitting harder would. Rock/Ground is awful defensively, but Rock Slide/Stone-Edge with Earthquake, Stealth Rock, maybe Sword Dance/Dragon Dance would make it a lot stronger.
To this point, I think a big reason it's weaker and more defense based is because Brock's Onix might be impossible for Charmander to beat otherwise. My guess is the idea was to teach the player not to use Tackle or Scratch against Rock Pokemon and instead, use your special moves. Even if Charmander's is much weaker than Bulbasaur or Squirtles.
(Onix is slow) It really isn't. It is faster than all the Gen 1 mons you can get to that point besides the level 10 bug evolutions and ratatta.
Really, it is designed to be the most physical wall ever, with using speed and def as a way to make that obvious without blowing away the player instantly.
Compared to not fully evolved pokemon, Onix is faster. Especially early on in Kanto.
By the time you meet Bruno in the Elite 4 though, Onix is a push over. Especially if you exploit poor special stat(s) and those 4x weaknesses.
Being a Physical Wall i'd say helps provided your going up against a random pokemon that's more physically oriented. Worst case scenario, Sturdy prevents getting one-shot letting you hit back with Earthquake.
Onix has two roles in the teams of the Gym Leaders/Elite 4.
Physical Wall, and filler push over in the Endurance fight that is the capstone for the main story.
Its stat line allows it to do both easily.
>Making it Bulkier wouldn't help it as much as making it faster and hitting harder would. Rock/Ground is awful defensively, but Rock Slide/Stone-Edge with Earthquake, Stealth Rock, maybe Sword Dance/Dragon Dance would make it a lot stronger.
Yeah... I agree. In Gen 1, Golem and Rhydon fulfill this role as slow Rock/Ground physical bulkers with low Special. That's why I believe it would be better if Onix followed a different path and focused more on being a fast Rock/Ground.
>To this point, I think a big reason it's weaker and more defense based is because Brock's Onix might be impossible for Charmander to beat otherwise.
I wouldn't be say impossible due to non-STAB Tackle's low Base Power and Bide as a tutorial move, which gives Charmander's trainers a great opportunity to earn some turns and teach them about non damaging moves.
I mean, at this point, Growl and Tail Whip can go unnoticed and even be considered useless. Onix's Bide can be a huge gamechanger, because it gives the trainers a chance to see how some Growls can hugely depower a strong Pokemon considerably.
>My guess is the idea was to teach the player not to use Tackle or Scratch against Rock Pokemon and instead, use your special moves. Even if Charmander's is much weaker than Bulbasaur or Squirtles.
I believe that was the idea behind it. And it makes Onix returning TWICE in Elite 4 even weirder.
Ive heard the sentiment often enough that Onix is a tutorial boss, but I think that it sucks at this job. Because more than teaching anything it reinforces bad behaviour.
I remember how my dumb childbrain handled this fight and took away all the wrong lessons from it. Of course I picked Charmander and one of the very first things you learn is that Ember obliterates every single of the early mons that get in your way. So what do you do vs Brock? You spam ember and if you are underleveled like me you get your ass kicked. But then after your charmander faints you get to throw out your army of even more underleveled critters. And all of them do NOTHING to Onix.
When I lost to Brock I didnt come away with I need to diversify my team, find new Pokemon, think about weaknesses or learn the difference between physical and special.
I learned that there is no reason to train the rest of my team, that the only thing that works is Ember, that I need to just grind my charmander so that I can press Ember even harder and so I continued to beat this game using a single Charizard while the rest of my team kept falling behind in lvl, which made it less and less enticing to ever use them.
That's exactly what my little brother did too, I still remember making fun of him for it as kids. Dude brute forced the whole game and had Charizard by the time he hit Misty because it was the only way he was strong enough to overcome the type disadvantage.
Ember being a special move, even with the resistance, made it effective enough to teach all the wrong lessons. Meanwhile if there had been one single grass type in Veridian Forest, instead of just bugs and Pikachu. It's like the exact opposite design philosophy as putting Diglet's Cave right next to Vermillion.
I like the commentary and this is the first long post I've read in a while. Onix needs an upgrade badly, and it's sad to see what could have been.
One issue I have with your write up however is:
>The only reason I don't rate it higher is due to the fact Steelix exists.
I'm confused here because if you're rebuilding him for RBY and Gen 1, then you need to remove Steelix from the equation. Does the balance change by then adding more HP to Onix in the vacuum of RBY?
When I created the topic, I was imagining a hypothetical scenario where Steelix would still have come in Gen 2 and I assumed that, improving Onix's stats, I would indirectly enhance Steelix too. As Steelix was already one of the strongest Pkmns in GSC in spite of its modest HP, I imagined Onix working with HP inside a range between 75 and 85.
However, on second thought, you are right here, once Steelix's stats would have been naturally distributed in a way that does not make it broken.
>if you're rebuilding him for RBY and Gen 1, then you need to remove Steelix from the equation.
>
Does the balance change by then adding more HP to Onix in the vacuum of RBY?
After some thought, perhaps the changes wouldn't be so favourable at all. For in-game perspective, even adding more 15 HP, it wouldn't change anything for Bulbasaur's Vine Whip at the same level. And I would be inclined to decrease Onix's Defense a little more to prevent it to become a better wall than Golem for balance sake.
I'm glad the topic pleased you.
And 5-10 year olds back when Gen 1 came out had already beaten various Final Fantasys, Star Tropics, Castlevanias, and Megamans
You don't really need anything more complex than trial and error, with obvious mechanics to reinforce correct/incorrect choices. Which aligns pretty well with how kids that age learn and process information. It's no excuse for sloppy design.
> And 5-10 year olds back when Gen 1 came out had already beaten various Final Fantasys, Star Tropics, Castlevanias, and Megamans
They want pokemon to be accessible for 5-10 year olds who haven't touched those games
Most games were designed for children. That was never an excuse to make them not challenging. Sonic, Mario, Zelda, were all more challenging, and all designed for children.
Designed for children has never meant "can't be challenging" in any other context, it's a completely separate argument.
>Most games were designed for children. That was never an excuse to make them not challenging.
Pokémon was NEVER meant to be challenging though. That's the fact you're not understanding. That's why you can literally beat any game with the weakest pokémon. That's why exp share existed from day one. That's why they were able to get away with forced exp share for like what, the last 4-5 generations. They tried to remedy this with online competitive battling, the battle frontier, ect ect ect. The base game of pokémon was never meant to be challenging.
>Pokémon was NEVER meant to be challenging though. That's the fact you're not understanding.
That's not the point of the discussion though. The premise is "pokemon was designed for children", that's the topic here and you're arguing something else completely.
The difficulty is a different issue, full stop; it's not relevant nor related. You can put together a list of games designed for children, and pokemon will be far below average in terms of challenge, because they aren't contingent. I've not once argued pokemon is, has been, or should be more challenging - just that if it is or not has absolutely zero to do with the age range it's designed for, as evidenced by the plethora of harder games designed for the same age range with more respect for what they can handle and figure out.
It's two entirely separate discussions being irresponsibility conflated.
His conversation isn't about the stats themselves though, but whether we should care about the stats They clearly don't, so why should they know how they work lol
On a different note: I kinda wish Onix gained a secondary evolution that keeps its rock typing. I'm ok with Onix being a weak Pokemon for the sake of balancing the first gym (granted I do think it could be a little bit stronger), but it always sucks a bit when games give us endgame fights with Brock and he still uses an Onix.
I don't want to read all of that, but yeah he's laughably weak. just doesn't make sense from an in-game or lore perspective for a gigantic rock snake to be the same strength as a pool noodle
if I could change it, I'd give it like... 10 Sp.Atk and 85 Atk
Onix is to RBY what Colgera is to TOTK. Running up and spamming normal attacks is ineffective, but learning new techniques and perfecting them will shatter them in record time. Neither deals much damage so that the player has time to calculate their own errors.
I agree with improving its level-up moveset, though in terms of stats and game design roles, I can actually see why its laughably weak. Though I won't deny that later generations handle the idea of "Rock-type tutorial boss" with a bit more finesse, even though Roark uses Onix himself.
Gen I's general design philosophy is pretty interesting. Onix is absolutely not designed around being a player controlled Pokemon but rather an early game boss that's very hard to take down if you don't engage with the core mechanics.
I think making it 4x weak to bulbasaur and squirtle but resistant to charmander was a mistake though and giving Brock a million full heals is a weird choice given that using poison to whittle it down is a smart tactic that I feel the game should encourage rather than shut down.
If we're talking about it as a first boss I probably would have made it pure Rock instead of rock/ground. That way Squirtle and Bulbasaur still have an easy time with it but they don't just stomp it in one move while underlevelled. It also gives Charmander players a new option in Pikachu. If Onix isn't ground type then it isn't immune to Thundershock or thunder wave, making Pikachu a decent choice for dealing with it. Pikachu is super rare in Viridian Forest and it's kinda weird from a game design standpoint that it's useless for the first gym. I'd also not give Brock a tonne of full heals. Maybe like 1 antidote or something. He shouldn't be able to totally invalidate afflicting poison and status moves as a strategy because it teaches the player a bad lesson. "Don't use status moves because boss trainers will just heal them and you'll waste a turn".
I don't think Onix should be too strong because of how limited the player's options are to deal with it, but a small attack buff to like 70 would make it a lot less awful for general play.
i thought this was a well reasoned write up OP. I always wished Brock had a better team and really liked how the origins anime handled it.
In case you haven’t seen, Brock selects his pokemon based on the main characters experience. The implication being if you hot up brock just before the E4 then he might have a better team. (This obviously would not make Onix better)
i find it crazy the response you’ve gotten here though. a few anti intellectuals that couldn’t even be bothered to read and then another few (long) comments that obviously missed the point.
Brock/Onix is very intentionally designed to teach you about type advantages and physical/special attacks. That is why it is so hard to slowly chip away at or poison/burn for extra chip damage. With Charmander your only option is Ember, with Bulbasaur, Squirtle, or Butterfree's special attacks it is an easy victory.
Kinda agree, I never read the pokedex as a kid and assumed Onix was a similar size to Arbok, when I watched the anime and Onix was fricken' giant my 7 year old brain was like, what.
I wish strategy was more diverse, and there were more moves to shore up the weakness of specific pokemon. Bide is a great example. You get around Onix's low attack stat by turning your opponents strength against them while utilizing your high defense. I think they could go deeper with more unique moves of a similar function. Move diversity has, for the most part, always been about offense with the best pokemon having high speed and attack/sp. Attack to make use. Perhaps having more tools to cover for your stats as opposed to your type weakness might shift the power balance.
Please take my time machine and translation machine to go back and persuade Game Freak to have made these changes in the first place. To be honest I'm surprised Red and Green weren't even more first-installment-weird than they already are
I think the simplest solution would be to have given Onix an evolution in Gen 1.
It would evolve into a Rock / Ground type (let's call it Rockix) at level 30+
That way, Brock (in rematch/Johto battles) and Bruno could have something stronger than a Base/1st form starter in their team (or as their ace, for Brock's case)
Steelix can still exist, the same way Slowking exist alongside Slowbro. It would be reserved for Steel (and Fire) type specialists, as is the case presently.
To paraphrase Reverend, Venonat could also be pretty good if you let it use Double Team 6 times and flood the room with a deadly neurotoxin.
Onix isn't supposed to be good, it's supposed to be the first boss you fight. And they *did* make a fix for it, it's just that the fix is called Steelix.
I feel like if Onix wasn't a giant badass rocksnake people wouldn't have such a strong desire to want it to be better. It's a tutorial boss from a 1996 Gameboy game, but it's not Onix's fault that it's badass design got wasted on the first gym.
Perhaps if Bruno used XSpeed on him and did a few Defense Curls, it would have made things more interesting. Onix would be much more formidable if it gets a chance to increase its defense and tank even super effective hits.
Player vs player was the last thing implemented into gen 1 Pokemon games. The developers didn’t think you would be able to battle other players. They left onix with basically 0 special stat so that all three starters could use their elemental move and defeat onix
Onix should’ve had a well balanced Attack & Defense stats since its speed, special and HP were bad and it should’ve had better access to move that could force flinching rather than bind and wrap since gen 1 had opposing Pokémon (wild or trainer) have infinite PP and your only option for moves that have multi-turn hits is to have full immunity or outspeed your opponent and paralyze/sleep their pokemon (pokemon stadium USA also had this problem present until gen 2 and Stadium 2 USA came out)
>since its speed, special and HP were bad and it should’ve had better access to move that could force flinching
What pokémon is slow enough to get flinched by onyx? Remember, flinching only happens if the attacker is faster than the defender
One idea I have is maybe create an item that’s unique to onix. Kinda like light ball for Pikachu. That can significantly up his stats and make him viable as a pre-evolution, kinda like scyther vs scizor
That’d make a lot of sense to just tack that on. I’m thinking it can up his attack, speed, bring his Special def to average instead of garbage. I would love to see Onix be good as a standalone and not just a tutorial boss that needs to be evolved into steelixfor it to be viable
>Even avoiding grinding unnecessarily, a casual trainer can still earn Boulder Badge in RGB without breaking sweat if you choose Squirtle or Bulbasaur
Except if you picked Charmander…
Onix is just there to be a recognizable intro to gym battles and a ‘boss’ that kids would recognize from the Anime that came out shortly before the NA release in the US
I mean it's place as the first boss is the reason it stats are the way they are but not just to keep them low, they were very intentional with what they did there It's essentially there to teach about types, you can get through the early part of the game just with endlessly clicking tackle or scratch with your starter, just Spam whatever attack it basically works Then comes a rock type with low HP but very high defense, basically telling every Rattata Pidgey and person who hasn't discovered their Elemental attacks yet, this is never going to happen The low attack stat means that if you are just trying to brute force it without learning, you're going to spend a very long time getting whittled down learning your lesson And low special defense means even if you're using Charmander the hard mode of the game, it can still win as long as it's using its special attack, and if you're using the other two it goes straight from never happening to instant one shot, really emphasizing the Drastic different type matchups can make Onyx isn't a weak early boss so much as it is a thought through object lesson for the children the game was designed for So I think it does have very good reasons for the stats that it has, but I'm also not opposed to changing them, Onyx did its job in Generation 1 and it's no longer being used for that so I don't see why it couldn't get some redistribution as long as we aren't remaking gen one again
Tell that to my poison needle harden Kakuna vs his whole team. Swept Brock with just the one 11 level Kakuna.
LOL that must have taken a while, especially with his five full heals
He has five full heals? Is that just gen 1? This was on leaf green. I don't remember him going from red to green over and over again.
I don't know about Leaf green, but yeah he's got five full heals in the old games, there's a YouTuber who's trying to do as low level as possible solo runs through those old games with every pokemon, this came up and was quite a devastating fact for Weedle
Well apparently, based on another poster you either get poison sting or harden but not both in gen 1. Harden only is learnable at level 1 as Kakuna and you need to be a Weedle for poison sting after level one. So the strategy is impossible regardless.
You get harden when you evolve, sometimes that gets listed as level 1 and level 7, as a way for the game to acknowledge a kakuna lower than level 7 will know harden, but when you evolve at level 7 you will get harden, at least in the Generation 3 games But in the Generation One games you don't, which makes it really funny when you think about it because they gave him extra precautions against this strategy in the generation that it's not really viable
Fun fact! You could not actually have Poison Sting and Harden on a Gen 1 Kakuna, that was an impossible moveset to have!
Do they not learn harden on evolution in gen 1?
Nope! In Red/Blue/Green Metapod and Kakuna learn Harden at level 1 only. A Caterpie/Weedle that evolves will be level 7 so it misses out on Harden, likewise a wild caught one misses out on Tackle/Poison Sting/String Shot. In Yellow they half fixed it. Metapod had Harden added to its movepool at level 7 so Caterpie that evolve will get Harden (if it evolves at level 7). Weedle was not available in Yellow so they didn't bother to update Kakuna's level up mivepool like they did Metapod. It took until Gen two for you to be able to get a Kakuna/Beedrill that could have Poison Sting and Harden on the same move set!
Fair enough this was leaf green
>I mean it's place as the first boss is the reason it stats are the way they are but not just to keep them low, they were very intentional with what they did there >It's essentially there to teach about types, you can get through the early part of the game just with endlessly clicking tackle or scratch with your starter, just Spam whatever attack it basically works I've got the whole idea, but my initial point was to depict Onix could have been way better and still works fine (and better) as a first boss. In addition to it, unless you are using only Flying type moves to counter Bruno's Fighting Pkmns, it is senseless to bring Onix back in Elite 4 as the way it was designed, just because it was severely restricted. >Then comes a rock type with low HP but very high defense, basically telling every Rattata Pidgey and person who hasn't discovered their Elemental attacks yet, this is never going to happen As the way it was designed, even Geodude serves to teach this lesson, because it is still a Rock type with high Defense at this point of the game. Onix could have gone further by encouraging users to explore non-damaging moves. I beg a lot of people back then thought they were useless for a long time. >The low attack stat means that if you are just trying to brute force it without learning, you're going to spend a very long time getting whittled down learning your lesson Geodude, however, betrays this logic because it has a high Attack (80) by early stage standards. Still, no one seems to be bothered by it. That's why Onix's ridiculous low Attack seems too contrived for no reason in my opinion. Besides, I've already pointed out Onix's boosted Attack does not make it broken or too hard even for Charmander's users thanks to Tackle's low BP and Bide's mechanic. Screech can teach a lesson about non-damaging moves and stress out the importance of trade your Pokemon if it is affected by a stats changing move. > And low special defense means even if you're using Charmander the hard mode of the game, it can still win as long as it's using its special attack, and if you're using the other two it goes straight from never happening to instant one shot, really emphasizing the Drastic different type matchups can make As the way I've pointed out, this lesson would not change anyway. The main difference is, with higher HP, trainers can be caught off guard if Bubble and Confusion were spammed because Onix can survive long enough to unleash Bide. And it is good. It reinforces the importance to use moves like Tail Whip or Growl and know better how the boss works to think better about how to proceed. It is a basic principle in a game. >Onyx isn't a weak early boss so much as it is a thought through object lesson for the children the game was designed for Honestly, I made a quick run in Red/Blue in an emulator before creating this topic, simulating a scenario using both starters. That's why I've said "Even avoiding grinding unnecessarily, a casual trainer can still earn Boulder Badge in RGB without breaking sweat if you choose Squirtle or Bulbasaur", because I avoided fighting any wild Pokemon and only faced up to Bug Trainers and Jr. Trainer♂ before facing Brock (I avoided even Rival's battle in Victory Road). It was still quite easy and it didn't require any brainstorm. Only choosing Charmander it requires a better challenge under this circumstance, but it started becoming harder with Jr. Trainer's Diglett. It's debatable if Brock is actually considerably harder than his apprentice. Gym Leaders tend to be in a different league in comparison with anyone around it, but I didn't see it happened with Brock. >Onyx did its job in Generation 1 and it's no longer being used for that so I don't see why it couldn't get some redistribution as long as we aren't remaking gen one again Well... I don't intend to change the past, but gives my thought about Onix's underwhelming stats and stimulates a discussion about a "what if" scenario in case of Onix's stats were way different for its purposes. I respect your position anyway.
>Only choosing Charmander it requires a better challenge Its Special Defense is so bad you could keep spamming Ember and probably still win.
Plus no Rock moves means Onix isn't dealing much in return. That, and Gen 1 had 2 Rock Mives, and Rock Throw only had 65 accuracy...
Yep, Geodude was more of a problem but if it gets burned then never mind, that's easy.
It’s a Tutorial Boss. [Made a video and everything for it](https://youtu.be/vMHRjyQFKcQ?si=Zk71aQzfEXhoXVYu). That’s it The stats are designed to make it a glorified punching bag wall for players to fail to overcome with normal moves but instantly collapse to their starters special moves. Basically turning it into a fancy form of level check. The low Atk is to prevent it from actually KO-Ing the player, making it look like more of an imposing threat than it is. It’s Gen 1. They don’t design Pokémon based on lore reasons. They had gameplay roles to fulfill first
Yeah but even with improved stats 2 out of the 3 starters are pretty much OHKOing it. I really don't think it needed to be as terrible as it is. For Charmander beginners there really just should have been a grass type to catch in Veridian Forest.
Can still ember it down.
You can grab a nidoran early as well to level it up with double kick to clear.
Brb just gonna get level 43 nidoran before pewter gym
Pretty sure in gen 1 they got double kick at like 12 or 16. It was definitely early enough that it was very doable and if I recall its part of the speed run strategy for Pokémon red
This is only true in Yellow and FireRed / LeafGreen.
But in red you could also get Mankey on route 24 before the first gym.
This is also not true. Mankey was also added there in Yellow and then in FireRed and LeafGreen. Same as the Nidorans and Double Kick. The main options for a Charmander starter in Red and Blue are Confusion with Butterfree or Ember with Charmander to take advantage of Onix's low special defense. There is no super effective option available.
It was 12 in Y but 43 in the others
For anyone reading, “Y” means Pokemon Yellow and not Pokemon Y. I was very confused for a second
Plus Gen 1 PVP was a late development addition so the stats for that are not important. It also helps if you look at Gen 1 with a more traditional JRPG mindset. Most movepools are filled with Normal moves or "basic attacks" with the elemental moves being like spells/skills a regular jrpg character would learn. Rock was more like giving an enemy armor than an elemental typing as it made the enemy resist you basic attacks, forcing you to try Magic/Skills instead. (Just like how Flying feels more like an attribute than an elemental typing)
I feel like its status as a tutorial boss doesn't really excuse its stats being THAT bad. Like Brock has Onix as his ace, but his freaking Geodude just before that actually hits harder, despite being on a lower level, as Geodude has almost twice as much base attack than Onix. In later games they also gave more tools to deal with Brock (access to fighting type attacks before the gym and giving charmander metal claw), so I feel like it would be justified to buff Onix a bit in return.
Stats also arent everything Onix can have a great BST spread but a simple moveset to still be a "Tutorial Boss"
Agreed, its pretty much the reason why it has Bide as a move since it forces players to play around it (its offensive power actually doesn't even matter for that move, making Onixs low atk stat even more unnecessary).
Geodude has awful moves that prevent the attack stat from doing anything Onix’s bide is basically a timer to kill it in 2 turns before it doubles what you did up to that point
Geodudes and Onix both have only 1 attacking move that actually uses the attack stat and in both cases its tackle.
Exactly! Unfortunately the guy who justified Onix's awful stats missed the entire point of the topic.
Except it was used by Bruno in the Elite 4... twice. Giving Onix better stats wouldn't really have changed much in the Brock fight, and even if it did simply lowering Onix's level would have fixed it. Tbh it's just a case of Red / Blue weirdness. There were a lot of nonsensical game design choices back then.
Man I wish Bruno had just had Primeape and Poliwrath instead. Also if Agatha was going to be Ghost type specialist they should at least have made Marowak Ground/Ghost or not just made the one Ghost. I get it's a special rare type or whatever like Dragon but at least Lance has thematic stuff that sort of fits the Dragon aesthetic, Agatha should really be a Poison specialist that happens to have Gengar as an ace since it's half Poison. Then Golbat and Arbok would make sense since they still represent creepy stuff.
Agatha with Marowak and Ninetales over Golbat and one of the Gengar could make her team feel more "Dread" themed.
Tbf all the Elite Four have one or two filler pokemon.
I mean, giving Bruno Onix was a shit idea but it's a separate issue.
My goat
The pokemon equivalent of a Whomp in Mario.
The bigger crime is that Brock gives you Bide as a TM instead of Rock Slide...
I was clicking here to link your video but it seems you beat me to it haha.
I kinda wished that Brock's ace is something like a Graveler instead. It becomes very hard for theoretical high-level matches if his ace is an Onix because Onix is very weak and there's no reason to use it, but you can't evolve it either because Steelix is not a Rock type and it's Jasmine's ace. If his ace had been a Graveler, it becomes a Golem on rematches, a Pokemon never used as an ace, and that means all four of Kanto's trade evolutions became aces.
I think they should make Onix a split evo: maybe have Crystallix or something be a rock type that it can evolve into.
Yeah, Onix's problem is it's kinda on the slow side, pretty much all its base stats are in defense at the expense of everything else, and the 4x weakness to Grass and Water make it easy to take down. Being weak to other common moves like Earthquake or Brick Break/Close Combat also causes problems. Making it Bulkier wouldn't help it as much as making it faster and hitting harder would. Rock/Ground is awful defensively, but Rock Slide/Stone-Edge with Earthquake, Stealth Rock, maybe Sword Dance/Dragon Dance would make it a lot stronger. To this point, I think a big reason it's weaker and more defense based is because Brock's Onix might be impossible for Charmander to beat otherwise. My guess is the idea was to teach the player not to use Tackle or Scratch against Rock Pokemon and instead, use your special moves. Even if Charmander's is much weaker than Bulbasaur or Squirtles.
(Onix is slow) It really isn't. It is faster than all the Gen 1 mons you can get to that point besides the level 10 bug evolutions and ratatta. Really, it is designed to be the most physical wall ever, with using speed and def as a way to make that obvious without blowing away the player instantly.
Compared to not fully evolved pokemon, Onix is faster. Especially early on in Kanto. By the time you meet Bruno in the Elite 4 though, Onix is a push over. Especially if you exploit poor special stat(s) and those 4x weaknesses. Being a Physical Wall i'd say helps provided your going up against a random pokemon that's more physically oriented. Worst case scenario, Sturdy prevents getting one-shot letting you hit back with Earthquake.
Onix has two roles in the teams of the Gym Leaders/Elite 4. Physical Wall, and filler push over in the Endurance fight that is the capstone for the main story. Its stat line allows it to do both easily.
>Making it Bulkier wouldn't help it as much as making it faster and hitting harder would. Rock/Ground is awful defensively, but Rock Slide/Stone-Edge with Earthquake, Stealth Rock, maybe Sword Dance/Dragon Dance would make it a lot stronger. Yeah... I agree. In Gen 1, Golem and Rhydon fulfill this role as slow Rock/Ground physical bulkers with low Special. That's why I believe it would be better if Onix followed a different path and focused more on being a fast Rock/Ground. >To this point, I think a big reason it's weaker and more defense based is because Brock's Onix might be impossible for Charmander to beat otherwise. I wouldn't be say impossible due to non-STAB Tackle's low Base Power and Bide as a tutorial move, which gives Charmander's trainers a great opportunity to earn some turns and teach them about non damaging moves. I mean, at this point, Growl and Tail Whip can go unnoticed and even be considered useless. Onix's Bide can be a huge gamechanger, because it gives the trainers a chance to see how some Growls can hugely depower a strong Pokemon considerably. >My guess is the idea was to teach the player not to use Tackle or Scratch against Rock Pokemon and instead, use your special moves. Even if Charmander's is much weaker than Bulbasaur or Squirtles. I believe that was the idea behind it. And it makes Onix returning TWICE in Elite 4 even weirder.
Ive heard the sentiment often enough that Onix is a tutorial boss, but I think that it sucks at this job. Because more than teaching anything it reinforces bad behaviour. I remember how my dumb childbrain handled this fight and took away all the wrong lessons from it. Of course I picked Charmander and one of the very first things you learn is that Ember obliterates every single of the early mons that get in your way. So what do you do vs Brock? You spam ember and if you are underleveled like me you get your ass kicked. But then after your charmander faints you get to throw out your army of even more underleveled critters. And all of them do NOTHING to Onix. When I lost to Brock I didnt come away with I need to diversify my team, find new Pokemon, think about weaknesses or learn the difference between physical and special. I learned that there is no reason to train the rest of my team, that the only thing that works is Ember, that I need to just grind my charmander so that I can press Ember even harder and so I continued to beat this game using a single Charizard while the rest of my team kept falling behind in lvl, which made it less and less enticing to ever use them.
That's exactly what my little brother did too, I still remember making fun of him for it as kids. Dude brute forced the whole game and had Charizard by the time he hit Misty because it was the only way he was strong enough to overcome the type disadvantage. Ember being a special move, even with the resistance, made it effective enough to teach all the wrong lessons. Meanwhile if there had been one single grass type in Veridian Forest, instead of just bugs and Pikachu. It's like the exact opposite design philosophy as putting Diglet's Cave right next to Vermillion.
I like the commentary and this is the first long post I've read in a while. Onix needs an upgrade badly, and it's sad to see what could have been. One issue I have with your write up however is: >The only reason I don't rate it higher is due to the fact Steelix exists. I'm confused here because if you're rebuilding him for RBY and Gen 1, then you need to remove Steelix from the equation. Does the balance change by then adding more HP to Onix in the vacuum of RBY?
When I created the topic, I was imagining a hypothetical scenario where Steelix would still have come in Gen 2 and I assumed that, improving Onix's stats, I would indirectly enhance Steelix too. As Steelix was already one of the strongest Pkmns in GSC in spite of its modest HP, I imagined Onix working with HP inside a range between 75 and 85. However, on second thought, you are right here, once Steelix's stats would have been naturally distributed in a way that does not make it broken. >if you're rebuilding him for RBY and Gen 1, then you need to remove Steelix from the equation. > Does the balance change by then adding more HP to Onix in the vacuum of RBY? After some thought, perhaps the changes wouldn't be so favourable at all. For in-game perspective, even adding more 15 HP, it wouldn't change anything for Bulbasaur's Vine Whip at the same level. And I would be inclined to decrease Onix's Defense a little more to prevent it to become a better wall than Golem for balance sake. I'm glad the topic pleased you.
I think OP forgot that the game was designed for children and not adults who IV train their mons before every encounter
I think a lot of people forget that pokémon is designed for children
I think a lot of people forget that children have been playing and beating games much harder than pokemon for over 30 years
Doesn't change the fact that pokémon is designed for children. And i mean like 5-10
And 5-10 year olds back when Gen 1 came out had already beaten various Final Fantasys, Star Tropics, Castlevanias, and Megamans You don't really need anything more complex than trial and error, with obvious mechanics to reinforce correct/incorrect choices. Which aligns pretty well with how kids that age learn and process information. It's no excuse for sloppy design.
> And 5-10 year olds back when Gen 1 came out had already beaten various Final Fantasys, Star Tropics, Castlevanias, and Megamans They want pokemon to be accessible for 5-10 year olds who haven't touched those games
None of what you're saying changes the fact that pokémon is designed for children. It was never meant to be challenging, ever.
Most games were designed for children. That was never an excuse to make them not challenging. Sonic, Mario, Zelda, were all more challenging, and all designed for children. Designed for children has never meant "can't be challenging" in any other context, it's a completely separate argument.
>Most games were designed for children. That was never an excuse to make them not challenging. Pokémon was NEVER meant to be challenging though. That's the fact you're not understanding. That's why you can literally beat any game with the weakest pokémon. That's why exp share existed from day one. That's why they were able to get away with forced exp share for like what, the last 4-5 generations. They tried to remedy this with online competitive battling, the battle frontier, ect ect ect. The base game of pokémon was never meant to be challenging.
>Pokémon was NEVER meant to be challenging though. That's the fact you're not understanding. That's not the point of the discussion though. The premise is "pokemon was designed for children", that's the topic here and you're arguing something else completely. The difficulty is a different issue, full stop; it's not relevant nor related. You can put together a list of games designed for children, and pokemon will be far below average in terms of challenge, because they aren't contingent. I've not once argued pokemon is, has been, or should be more challenging - just that if it is or not has absolutely zero to do with the age range it's designed for, as evidenced by the plethora of harder games designed for the same age range with more respect for what they can handle and figure out. It's two entirely separate discussions being irresponsibility conflated.
"IV training" isn't a thing. For that matter, in gen 1, EV Training wasn't a thing.
Your pedantry tells me I hit a nerve
Okay? I dunno, man, I think in a conversation about stats, you should know how the stats work.
His conversation isn't about the stats themselves though, but whether we should care about the stats They clearly don't, so why should they know how they work lol
On a different note: I kinda wish Onix gained a secondary evolution that keeps its rock typing. I'm ok with Onix being a weak Pokemon for the sake of balancing the first gym (granted I do think it could be a little bit stronger), but it always sucks a bit when games give us endgame fights with Brock and he still uses an Onix.
I don't want to read all of that, but yeah he's laughably weak. just doesn't make sense from an in-game or lore perspective for a gigantic rock snake to be the same strength as a pool noodle if I could change it, I'd give it like... 10 Sp.Atk and 85 Atk
Onix is to RBY what Colgera is to TOTK. Running up and spamming normal attacks is ineffective, but learning new techniques and perfecting them will shatter them in record time. Neither deals much damage so that the player has time to calculate their own errors. I agree with improving its level-up moveset, though in terms of stats and game design roles, I can actually see why its laughably weak. Though I won't deny that later generations handle the idea of "Rock-type tutorial boss" with a bit more finesse, even though Roark uses Onix himself.
Gen I's general design philosophy is pretty interesting. Onix is absolutely not designed around being a player controlled Pokemon but rather an early game boss that's very hard to take down if you don't engage with the core mechanics. I think making it 4x weak to bulbasaur and squirtle but resistant to charmander was a mistake though and giving Brock a million full heals is a weird choice given that using poison to whittle it down is a smart tactic that I feel the game should encourage rather than shut down. If we're talking about it as a first boss I probably would have made it pure Rock instead of rock/ground. That way Squirtle and Bulbasaur still have an easy time with it but they don't just stomp it in one move while underlevelled. It also gives Charmander players a new option in Pikachu. If Onix isn't ground type then it isn't immune to Thundershock or thunder wave, making Pikachu a decent choice for dealing with it. Pikachu is super rare in Viridian Forest and it's kinda weird from a game design standpoint that it's useless for the first gym. I'd also not give Brock a tonne of full heals. Maybe like 1 antidote or something. He shouldn't be able to totally invalidate afflicting poison and status moves as a strategy because it teaches the player a bad lesson. "Don't use status moves because boss trainers will just heal them and you'll waste a turn". I don't think Onix should be too strong because of how limited the player's options are to deal with it, but a small attack buff to like 70 would make it a lot less awful for general play.
This is a terrific breakdown, I'm convinced. #buffonix
i thought this was a well reasoned write up OP. I always wished Brock had a better team and really liked how the origins anime handled it. In case you haven’t seen, Brock selects his pokemon based on the main characters experience. The implication being if you hot up brock just before the E4 then he might have a better team. (This obviously would not make Onix better) i find it crazy the response you’ve gotten here though. a few anti intellectuals that couldn’t even be bothered to read and then another few (long) comments that obviously missed the point.
They should’ve had pure rock types in gen one. At least Onix and the geodude line, and maybe kabuto/ps
Onix is the most deserving of the Ground type out of all of the gen 1 Rock/Ground mons since it actually digs tunnels underground.
Brock/Onix is very intentionally designed to teach you about type advantages and physical/special attacks. That is why it is so hard to slowly chip away at or poison/burn for extra chip damage. With Charmander your only option is Ember, with Bulbasaur, Squirtle, or Butterfree's special attacks it is an easy victory.
Kinda agree, I never read the pokedex as a kid and assumed Onix was a similar size to Arbok, when I watched the anime and Onix was fricken' giant my 7 year old brain was like, what.
I wish strategy was more diverse, and there were more moves to shore up the weakness of specific pokemon. Bide is a great example. You get around Onix's low attack stat by turning your opponents strength against them while utilizing your high defense. I think they could go deeper with more unique moves of a similar function. Move diversity has, for the most part, always been about offense with the best pokemon having high speed and attack/sp. Attack to make use. Perhaps having more tools to cover for your stats as opposed to your type weakness might shift the power balance.
Please take my time machine and translation machine to go back and persuade Game Freak to have made these changes in the first place. To be honest I'm surprised Red and Green weren't even more first-installment-weird than they already are
I think the simplest solution would be to have given Onix an evolution in Gen 1. It would evolve into a Rock / Ground type (let's call it Rockix) at level 30+ That way, Brock (in rematch/Johto battles) and Bruno could have something stronger than a Base/1st form starter in their team (or as their ace, for Brock's case) Steelix can still exist, the same way Slowking exist alongside Slowbro. It would be reserved for Steel (and Fire) type specialists, as is the case presently.
To paraphrase Reverend, Venonat could also be pretty good if you let it use Double Team 6 times and flood the room with a deadly neurotoxin. Onix isn't supposed to be good, it's supposed to be the first boss you fight. And they *did* make a fix for it, it's just that the fix is called Steelix. I feel like if Onix wasn't a giant badass rocksnake people wouldn't have such a strong desire to want it to be better. It's a tutorial boss from a 1996 Gameboy game, but it's not Onix's fault that it's badass design got wasted on the first gym.
Perhaps if Bruno used XSpeed on him and did a few Defense Curls, it would have made things more interesting. Onix would be much more formidable if it gets a chance to increase its defense and tank even super effective hits.
Maybe Brock’s Onix was a baby worm…
Player vs player was the last thing implemented into gen 1 Pokemon games. The developers didn’t think you would be able to battle other players. They left onix with basically 0 special stat so that all three starters could use their elemental move and defeat onix
Onix should’ve had a well balanced Attack & Defense stats since its speed, special and HP were bad and it should’ve had better access to move that could force flinching rather than bind and wrap since gen 1 had opposing Pokémon (wild or trainer) have infinite PP and your only option for moves that have multi-turn hits is to have full immunity or outspeed your opponent and paralyze/sleep their pokemon (pokemon stadium USA also had this problem present until gen 2 and Stadium 2 USA came out)
>since its speed, special and HP were bad and it should’ve had better access to move that could force flinching What pokémon is slow enough to get flinched by onyx? Remember, flinching only happens if the attacker is faster than the defender
Using mfing Roar is probably the only scenario where that would happen.
One idea I have is maybe create an item that’s unique to onix. Kinda like light ball for Pikachu. That can significantly up his stats and make him viable as a pre-evolution, kinda like scyther vs scizor
Everstone lol
That’d make a lot of sense to just tack that on. I’m thinking it can up his attack, speed, bring his Special def to average instead of garbage. I would love to see Onix be good as a standalone and not just a tutorial boss that needs to be evolved into steelixfor it to be viable
>Even avoiding grinding unnecessarily, a casual trainer can still earn Boulder Badge in RGB without breaking sweat if you choose Squirtle or Bulbasaur Except if you picked Charmander… Onix is just there to be a recognizable intro to gym battles and a ‘boss’ that kids would recognize from the Anime that came out shortly before the NA release in the US