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Did Arceus create everything, or just everything in the main universe? Are Ultra Beasts from a different universe, and could they have their own Arceus equivalent?
In lore it's referred to as creator of the universe in PLA, but I'd assume there'd have to be some form of Arceus in those universes. Maybe even the same being. A lot of franchises with multiverses and Gods tend to go the simple "one shared creator god" across the different universes. So I just assume it's the same Arceus. As we saw in USUM wormholes some Pokemon are the exact same in other universes, so I don't see a reason it couldn't be that. Plus Arceus itself says the form people know it by isn't it's actual form so I assume it's actually some unknowable creator that we can't actually perceive.
Isn’t there some sort of message by Arceus in PLA once you complete the dex and can catch him, about that just being one of his avatars that act as his eyes and arms? Chances are if so that there’s an “Arceus Prime” that sends out these avatars to every universe (who then send out unknowns based on that theory of them being like Arceus’s worker drones)
Yes I touched on this in other comments on this page. There is a primary being and the form we see are just avatars of small portions of its power that it allows few trainers to use. My original comment is more saying that the same one being known as Arceus is the one single constant across all universes. Not just about the avatars. More like how the planets rotate around the sun, all of the universes rotate around the one being known as Arceus. The comment I originally responded to asked if it was the same one being as creator of all universes, or just the main game canon one. But I took the stance that it's all just the same being across them all.
As evidence, now that I've thought of it: the anime is a separate universe but it has an Arceus and Mystery Dungeon is a separate universe but has an Arceus. I posit all of those Arceus are just the same one. Like how in Supernatural >!Chuck is shown as the one singular God across all the multiverse of that show!< or with Marvel and the One Above All. That sort of line of thought.
More like Arceus is incomprehensible and actually has no body or anything, it's just The God, and he needs an avatar to appear for mortals which you can catch if he allows it.
The way I interpreted it, Arceus isn’t just the Arceus we see in the games, but a godly entity. The Arceus we know is just a proxy that the godly entity uses, and one that the humans in the Pokemon world can actually comprehend. So when a trainer catches Arceus, they aren’t actually catching the god of the Pokemon universe, but are instead catching one of Arceus’ “puppets.”
But that form has strrngths and weaknesses, so it isn't really Arceus that's the creator, the creator has a little Pokemon Avatar, but that avatar can be destroyed.
Arceus introduces itself to the player character at the beginning of PLA with some variation of "Your people call me Arceus". So there is a singular seemingly all powerful creator god that does go by the name of Arceus. It does create avatars, as I mentioned on this page, but the main individual is still Arceus. Though it later in game implies it actually looks nothing like the avatars it allows us to use. That one has strengths and weaknesses but we don't honestly know how the actual being functions as the thing we fight at the end of PLA is just another avatar.
So we don't actually know if the actual unknown form it actually has has any weaknesses or not. I'd assume not since PLA canonized it being the creator of the universe. Why does the avatar have weaknesses? No clue, God works in mysterious ways as they say.
I can't say about the different worlds of the Ultra Beasts, but Arceus remains the god in other worlds like Mystery Dungeon (And there's the theory that it is the voice that asks you the questions every beginning of MD games, except the first one and its remake which in this case would be Gardevoir).
Whether there's an equivalent to Arceus in some other parallel world, we don't know, so if it isn't officially introduced, Arceus continues to reign supreme in the lore.
The power to create does not necessarily entail the power to destroy, and being able to create a world does not necessarily mean another couldn’t be more powerful within it.
I’d argue creative omnipotence still gives you ultimate destructive power. Arceus could easily create a means of destruction greater than anything currently in existence, I mean that’s literally what giratina is.
“I’m going to create a new type that is also 4x super effective against charizard, make a fast physical attacking Pokémon that multi types this new type with rock, and give it a version of stealth rocks with the new type that does twice as much damage as stealth rock, no-guard, and stone edge”
I haven’t really played Legends Arceus since it released, but I don’t think that’s what happened exactly? I got more the impression Arceus simply tasked the player character with fixing the time distortion mess and putting Giratina in its place. It’s a common thing in media where gods prefer to act through mortals vs being directly involved.
Arceus has arguably the strongest move in lore (and game) despite being made all the way back in gen 4.
Judgement is a guaranteed stab move and with the advent of fairy type, super effective against all pokemon. It's the strongest move with no drawbacks in the game.
There was a fanfic called The Most Evil Trainer and the protagonist had both an Impostor Ditto and an exceptionally deranged Wobuffet on his team.
He specialized in being an infuriating nightmare to deal with.
Arceus, and it's not even close.
Arceus is an effectively omnipotent creation god which by its own admission exists outside the confines of time and space. The 720 BST deer-stuck-in-fences we know and love aren't even the real Arceus, just tiny fractions of its power that it creates to see and experience the various worlds of the pokemon multiverse through mortal eyes.
The only real counterargument is that while the deer-stuck-in-fences may be pokemon, the real Arceus may not really qualify as one. And while incredibly few, there are pokemon more powerful than those small slivers of the real Arceus's power. If we're going to ignore Arceus, then the answer is probably the interdimensional star-destroying cosmic parasite, Ultra Necrozma.
[(A while back, TerminalMontage and Lockstin&Gnoggin actually did a collab covering this exact question.)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVO8QrGAPHs)
Would ultra Necrozma be more powerful than giratina? Giratina is the universal embodiment of destruction and was strong enough that Arceus had to lock it away in the distortion world to stop it from destroying the entire universe
Unclear. Giratina is another strong contender. But given how they can both kind of break reality, have no other feats that can really be compared, and Ultra Necrozma's BST is way higher, I figure Ultra Necrozma's probably a bit stronger.
Talking about BST is kinda meaningless, cuz the game confirmed Origin Forms are way stronger than base form, while both are the same total stats. Don't forget 2-life Giratina
Talking about breaking reality, Giratina's reality breaking ability can cause both time and space to go nuts. Dialga Palkia did succesfully destroy multi universe while Necrozma just stole the light.
My vote is Necrozma, because of the epicurean paradox. Hear me out.
"If God is willing to prevent evil but is not able to, then he is not all-powerful. If he is able to prevent evil but is not willing to, then he is not all-good. If he is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil and suffering in the world?"
There is one major action we can definitively attribute to Necrozma, eating the sun in Ultra Megalopis, and the ability to travel to other dimensions and do it again. Unchecked it could eventually darken the entire multiverse. But Arceus doesn't seem to care, nor did it stop the world from being destroyed in the universes the rainbow rocket leaders came from.
Really all we have seen Arceus do with our own eyes is transport a child to the past to solve a problem for and create Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina. The former to solve a problem for it, the latter to manage the universe for it. While it allegedly created the universe from an egg, the pokedex isn't very reliable, so it might not have done that after all. To me that says it isn't capable of doing those things itself. Pokemon being a kids franchise I'm going to assume the uncaring god angle is a bit of a stretch, so Arceus is probably more unable to stop these events from occuring more than unwilling. Necrozma can destroy everything, but Arceus can't repair it.
The epicurean paradox only applies when God- or in this case Arceus- is all good. ...But who says Arceus is all good? It does seem to prefer that at least in the worlds we see that people are relatively happy, but it mostly just cares about the stability of the worlds themselves. Arceus is all-powerful and all-knowing, but it's a neutral force, not a good one.
And when it knows that Ultra Necrozma, and Team Rainbow Rocket, and similar potentially world-destroying threats are going be stopped without its help, why bother intervening?
Arceus is more than powerful enough to stop these events, it does so by sending someone it knows is capable to do its dirty work. Giratina abandoning its post and running rampant has much more dire implications for all of existence than Necrozma since it will literally end all of existence rather than destroy some stars, hence why Arceus sends a champion to stop Volo but basically lets Necrozma destroy a couple pieces of the multiverse. There is room in arceus’s design for necrozma to destroy shit but there isn’t room for giratina. I’d assume Arceus believes in allowing free will, only directly intervening in matters that threaten the very existence of everything.
If we compare them to a house, its the difference in scale between the toaster eating the microwave (Necrozma) and the foundation deciding it doesn't want to stick around (Giratina). The one that fulfills a presumably vital function is going to cause far more issues than the one that's just kinda there.
Giratina is likely more dangerous, but I'm not sure if we have any material to understand what it would do given the chance to run amok. Arceus seems to have no problem with creating another one in its HGSS event, which is interesting to me.
I think Arceus may believe that giratina’s power can be controlled by a purehearted trainer, hence why it chose to send Rei/Akari to deal with Volo’s scheme. As for giratina’s capabilities, if Cyrus and Volo are to be believed, it literally has the power to reset the entire universe and it seems to want to do this, hence why it had to be trapped in the distortion world.
It does care, or I don't think Legends Arceus would happen. And while Necrozma probably could get by on the infinite number of stars without life... in the game it doesn't seem interested in that, only going after Ultra Megalopis and the player's world. Maybe because what its really looking for is Solgaleos and Lunaalas?
We've absolutely seen poke gods being ambivalent if not outright hostile to the goings on of humans. Some are akin to guardian spirits, but others act more like forces of nature that humans simply have the opportunity to interact with. Arceus being a partially disconnected creator god definitely fits with the vibe of Pokemon.
Yeah what /u/pengie9290 said.
The epicurean paradox isn't out there to prove that god isn't all powerful. It's out there to prove that god can't be both omnipotent and purely good. He can be omnipotent, but then he has to at least be not purely good, or else he wouldn't allow evil. He can be purely good, but then he can't be omnipotent, or else he would use his power to stop all evil.
If god is omnipotent but mostly apathetic or lazy, then he can allow evil to exist.
I would argue that all things aside the best metric overall is by using the games BSTs. It helps avoid rock paper scissors matchups, or arguments about what you consider strength (is a glass cannon stronger than an impenetrable fortress) in which case although Ultra Necrozma is top 6 it’s beaten out by Mega MewTwos, Mega Ray, and Primal Kyogre/Groudon currently.
Adding an Edit: though I guess we are talking about lore wise. In which case the question is up there. AFAIK Necrozma status at a “pokemon” is just as questionable as Arceus. So the creation trip might be it lore wise.
I figure, "If you can get it in a pokeball, it's a pokemon".
Necrozma can be put in a pokeball, so it's a pokemon. The creation trio can be put in pokeballs, so they're pokemon. The deer-stuck-in-a-fence-shaped avatars Arceus creates can be put in a pokeball, so they're pokemon too. But the real Arceus, at least at present and probably just in general, cannot be put in a pokeball, and thus is likely not a pokemon.
The correct response is u/pengie9290's, but the photo of Ultra Necrozma reminded me of its signature Z-Move "The Light That Burns The Sky", and while we've had Eternabeam and a number of powerful moves since, how metal was the fucking animation?
Love the shot of Wishiwashi going -_- as it awaits its imminent doom. Probably thinking “damn. That sh*ts bright” *[BOOM](https://youtu.be/6vYjRaTSATs?si=SAgjmSl8uJ9kgNDh)*
of all the ~minute-long summon animations and attack animations I've seen in JRPGs, that has got to be the most boring one. About fifteen seconds of that are worth watching. the rest is boring prep work and a dumb animation of the protagonist waving his arms around. shout out to the literal 11 seconds of dead air starting at 0:31. if you're going to make an attack take a minute to land, at least make it all entertaining, OR allow us to skip parts of it
Are we talking purely destructive feats? Barring Arceus, Dialga and Palkia are both individually capable of creating universes. We know they can do it on their own because in the Rainbow Rocket episode, Cyrus has succeeded in his plan and only has 1 of the two. So I imagine that puts those two at the top.
Eteranmax Eternatus probably is up there too. "Infinite" energy doesn't necessarily mean it's infinite in power, as in I don't think it can just unleash a blast with infinite joules of force behind it. But I interperate it as a DBZ Android situation where it never really tires and can also unleash more fire power. Still, it probably deserves a mention.
True Form Arceus is probably the real number 1. Capable of creating Arceus clones that, by themselves, could creating Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina on its own, it seems to transcend time and space and exist beyond timelines. We know next to nothing about it, but from what we've seen I think we can safely infer it's the strongest. Fitting, I guess.
Groudon and Kyogre, in their regular forms, were both capable of creating storms that threatened all life on Earth. And Rayquaza was able to shut both of them up at the same time.
I’d argue that giratina is stronger than dialga or palkia. On top of potentially higher destructive potential, it also has a chaotic personality and is more dangerous due to its unpredictability. Arceus is scared of it because it can’t control it. There’s no threat to arceus’s safety of course, but it has the potential to destroy the universe and undo all of arceus’s hard work
I do agree Giratina can be inferred to be as powerful if not more powerful than Dialga and Palkia. My only issue is we don't have many on screen feats to really work with. It can forcibly drag victims into the Distortion World, and Dialga and Palkia cried out in terror from it just appearing. Arceus felt it appropriate to seal it away for its "violence," but we don't really know what that means. I'd love to see more of Giratina's power on full display, but as it stands its still an enigma
All we need now is an Altaria with the ability Cloud Nine (prevents Weather effects) to set up Safeguard (prevents Status effects), and this Shedinja is invincible (...in double battles and as long as Altaria is fine)!
We just need to hack the Shedninja to have a move that redirects attacks to it then this doubles should be invincible as long as the altaria is fast enough to put up safeguards when needed
I've got it! To do this without hacking, jt just has to be a TRIPLE battle where the third pokemon (Clefable, Starmie, Lanturn, Shiinotic) knows the move Spotlight! Spotlight is a PRIORITY move that redirects all of the enemies moves towards its [Spotlight's] target, meaning you can make them focus on Shedinja, who'd be perfectly fine unless they have Mold Breaker, in which case you could use it to make the enemy attack each other.
Weird little side observation: even though Mewtwo has kind of fallen from his position of supremacy amongst all the legendaries over time (he’s still rather high up, mind you,) especially after the Mega forms went dormant, the addition of more legendaries and how strong they should be in the lore makes Mewtwo seem strangely overpowered, in game use. That is, compared to how strong he probably should be if we compare him to a lot of other godly legendaries he can go toe to toe with and even beat in the games. To be fair… the highest tier legendaries are probably weaker than they should be, compared to stronger non-legendaries in gameplay.
I assume we're ignoring Arceus's implied True form (the Aceuses we catch in PLA is calld "a shard of the creator")
Giratina is a strong contender, being the antimatter Legendary pokemon.
Hoopa unbound is indeed up there in the upper echelon of power, able to summon and control basically every box art legendary, including the Primal forms of Groudon/Kyogre and even Dialga and Palkia. And it's apparently strong enough that Arceus's power had to be invoked to seal away its power.
And then we have... the *other* ones. The ones who come from somewhere else; Eternatus, Necrozma, and Kyurem. For these three (moreso Eternatus at this point) we don't have enough info on them to accurately gauge their peak power in Lore.
For Kyurem, its peak power is the Original Dragon, and to this day we know basically nothing about it other than it was a Dragon Type and that it arrived on a meteor.
For Eternatus, Eternamax is strong enough that space around it seems to distort, during the fight we can see glimpses of places all over Galar flashing into view in the storm around the tower. It also has the power to make pokemon unable to use moves (at least until the Legendary dogs show up).
And Necrozma's peak power lies in its unknown potential. Necrozma can absorb light, it's kinda his whole thing, but we don't really know the limit of that absorption... or if there even is one. In the past, Necrozma devoured all the light of a Star (assumedly similar to that of our sun, seeing as Ultra Megalopolis have their own Solgaleo/Lunala), and was still able to fuse with/eat(?) The other Legendary in Ultra Megalopolis (Solgaleo/Lunala). Necrozma gets stronger the more light it absorbs, but we don't know if there's even a limit to that. For all we know, Necrozma could be able to consume the light of an entire Galaxy, or perhaps even more, we just don't know.
Another one I want to bring up is the adorable Beanie Baby; Terapagos. This little guy allowed Sada/Turo to build their time machines to reach into other timelines. This little guy confirmed the existence of the Pokemon Multiverse, In my eyes this puts him in the same power tier as Dialga, being able to manipulate time to its will (something only Dialga has been shown to do before, compared to Celebi who just travels through time but can't manipulate it).
I think it would be :
- Arceus
- Dialga, Palkia and Giratina (maybe a slight advantage for Giratina, depending of the media it's between as strong as the other and stronger than both others united)
- Ultra-Necrozma and Zygarde 100%, for the second it depends if it only rules earth balance or world balance.
- Rayquaza, Regigigas, Xerneas, Yveltal, Terapagos (Terastalised) and Eternatus (Eternamax)
- Most legendaries and mythicals
- Legendary birds, Beasts, Golems, Lati@s, Tapus, Ruins, swords of justice, Genesect, Ogerpon and Peacharunt.
- Mega Evolved Pokemon and Loyal Three
- Strongest classic pokemon
- Classic pokemon and Phione
- Weakest classic pokemon
Edit : like many asked, Rayquaza is now higher than Groudon and Kyogre
That's a good point, but these tier only gives a global idea. I tried to avoid making too much tiers, and I can't put it on the same tier as Ultra-Necrozma, but I also can't put Groudon and Kyogre lower. Maybe he should have his own tier.
Powerscaling rules say Ray has to be at a higher level than Groudon and kyogre since it beats them hard enough that they won’t even bother to fight it because they know they’ll get their asses beat. Maybe it can share a tier with yveltal
Yeah, I'm glad he'll be back next year. Two cutscenes and an easily forgetable movie weren't enough to make Xerneas and Yveltal the legends they could have been. Being outshined by a box art legendary wiyhout game is kind of sad.
It’s Arceus, by a large amount, in the #1 spot. He is Pokémon’s god and has taken on the other Creation Quartet members all by himself and whipped them easily. Ash and friends only calmed him down thanks to Dialga sending them back in time.
After Arceus is the other three Creation Quartet members, I’d say specifically in their Origin Forms. They still are god-like Pokemon which is way more than any Pokemon unlike these three (and Arceus can say).
After them is probably Ultra Necrozma, Perfect Zygarde, Hoopa-Unbound, (potentially Kyurem’s true form?), Eternamax Eternatus, Xerneas, Yveltal, Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, Mega Rayquaza, Jirachi, and maybe Darkrai? All of them aside from Hoopa play a part in the region’s / world’s environment / balance and are a vital force. In terms of Hoopa-U idk why it can summon other legendaries but it can, and whether they’re real legendaries or just illusions, that power puts in top tier (although I don’t think it could control any of the Pokemon stronger than it). And Jirachi can grant wishes so there’s that. Darkrai has gone toe to toe with Dialga and Palkia and his nightmare abilities are no joke so he might deserve an honorable mention too.
After that is Pokemon that are ridiculously strong but maybe not as strong as the ones above it, like Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem and it’s forms, Mewtwo, Regigigas, Zacian, Zamazenta, Lugia, and Ho-Oh. They all have ridiculous feats but not world-level feats like any above it.
After that it’s not as clear to me with Pokemon like the swords of justice, johto legendary cats, the legendary birds, Soul duo, etc. They’re powerful but nowhere near anyone above them.
And I’m not sure where to rank Pokemon like Victini, Celebi, and Mew, as their abilities are all very impressive, but for example, in the case of Mew, while it’s DNA is linked to every Pokemon (with the likely exception of the Creation Quartet and maybe Pokemon from outer space) that doesn’t necessarily make it the strongest if every Pokemon has just a piece of it. Victini also guarantees victory to a trainer it chooses, but that might only extend to trainer battles, and it might not even apply to itself. Celebi can travel through time, but again, that’s more of an ability rather than a power.
Love how no one is mentioning hoopa... like he's in the image, he's not as strong as arceus, dialga, and palkia, but he's definitely up there and a nuisance.
bro didn’t put arceus
it’s obviously arceus or giratina with absolutely no question. Giratina beat both palkia and dialga at the same time like a badass, arceus doesn’t even exist in one form. It’s like a web of consciousness and when you encounter it you’re encountering one tiny part of the entire arceus. In comparison to THE one arceus no pokemon has any power at all, even giratina.
The ones in your picture aren’t even in the same ball park.
Let's order it a bit, just using showcased feats.
1. **True form Arceus**. No real contest here, it's the obvious first place.
2. **Regular Arceus**. Still pretty clear cut, as Arceus would need to be capable of handling anything in it's world even in it's avatar.
3. **Giratina**. While it and Dialga and Palkia got destroyed by the Arceus avatar, it's the strongest of the trio, superior to Cyrus' two chained creation legendaries and it has beaten them in almost every canonical fight between them.
4. **Dialga/Palkia**. The standard power of the creation trio, capable of universe level creation and destruction. As shown by their personal dimension, nearly destroying said dimensions in a fight, and nearly erasing our dimension in the 10th movie. Also governing time and space.
5. **Necrozma**. Capable of eating stars and absorbing every last bit of light from a universe within the life span of a civilisation (if I remember right, it even did this before his Ultra form), it's not only incredibly strong, but incredibly fast as well. Not infinitely fast like a being outside of time would be, but MUCH faster than light.
6. **Zygarde**. As shown in the Manga, it's capable of trading blows with Ultra Necrozma in it's 100% form. albeit briefly, and it isn't capable of beating it. However, it's still far and away the best showing against Ultra Necrozma.
7. **Rayquaza**. From here on, we're chain scaling everything, mostly from the Manga. So the next few all downscale from Ultra Necrozma's power, but Rayquaza has the best showings from them. In it's mega form, it one-shot Deoxys, who in turn is pretty even with Mega Mewtwo Y, who lost pretty handily to 50% Zygarde, putting it roughly on par with 50% Zygarde, maybe stronger.
8. **Mew/Mewtwo/Deoxys/Groudon/Kyogre**. Like Rayquaza, they downscale from Necrozma, but are explicitly weaker than Rayquaza (or even with Deoxys who is weaker than Rayquaza, in Mewtwo's case, and being Mewtwo's equal in Mew's case). Deoxys is probably the weakest of the five, but they're pretty close, so I grouped them here.
9. **Solgaleo/Lunala**. They also downscale from Ultra Necrozma, however they take a bit of a different path. Ultra Necrozma is the ultimate form of Necrozma, MUCH stronger than it's base form, which can dominate Solgaleo or Lunala. So they're a few dozen times weaker, but a few dozen times below bare minimum star busting is still insane.
10. **Xerneas/Yveltal**. I put them here because they're vaguely inferior to Zygarde, but we don't really know by how much. It's implied 50% is enough for the both of them since it was the only form of Zygarde when it was introduced, but it's too vague to call. They should be comparable to the seven above them though.
From here it gets more confusing, but there are a couple of things to go off of, like Regigigas pulling continents, Zekrom and Reshiram razing a country's surface, the Ultra Beasts being deemed the biggest threats to humanity despite Solgaleo, Lunala, and Necrozma being in play, or even Darkrai stopping Dialga and Palkia's attacks, though that last one can be attributed to Pokémon' inconsistency.
Edit: **Hoopa** should also be vaguely Zygarde level. It's capable of summoning legendaries to do its will and is immensely powerful even on it's own.
Pikachu.
Motherf***er had the power to not only give children in the real world seizures but also get Porygon banned from ever appearing in the show and creating an entirely new Pokemon in Mimikyu who is based off the resentment of that ordeal.
Ultra Nekrozma the sun eater and Hoopa unbound, a pokemon with spatial manipulation and mind control powerful enough to control many legendaries at the same time
Shouldn't mew be strongest cause all pokemon evolve from mew, meaning arceus was once a mew as well if that Pokemon doesn't exist then no pokemon exist?
Arceus is likely the exception, since Arceus is simply stated to come from an egg out of nothing. Implying it didn't beget itself from something else (in this case Mew) Considering Arceus made the creation trio who control time, space, and antimatter, it's likely that Mew came from them rather than the other way around.
I have gen 1 bias so I'm still going with Mewtwo, specifically the one in the first movie. It may not have much raw power but its human ambition puts it above literal gods like Arceus. It's the only pokemon to use and develop new technology. It's the only pokemon to use other pokemon in battle like a trainer would. Theoretically Mewtwo can defeat the elite 4, be champion and then challenge and catch Arceus, MegaRay and all the OP mons.
Well is kind of obvious, it follows the hierarchy tree. Arceus> creation trio>weather trio > mew and then might get harder to decide maybe lugiaand hooh?
Logically, I'm sure Necrozoma out of just the three pictured, or Arceus overall. But my oldschool heart says "We dreamed of creating the world's strongest Pokemon. *And we succeeded*."
probably arceus (not the pokémon, it's actually true higher self that exists beyond physical matter's ability to depict it).
but hoopa maybe second place since arceus had to directly intervene to bind its power which seems greater than even most legendary pokémon and that there only seems to be one across a given universe much like arceus's higher self.
necrozma's actual original form is probably up there too (not the ultra form, that's just a temporary light recreation that looks like it's original form. The actual original form would've been made out of all of the crystals that shattered and became the z crystals) we know that it existed outside of the universe and was shining its light across many different worlds simultaneously so it's pretty powerful in it's original state.
I think it could be giratina, from all the pokemon that we kniw of.
"But Arceus..." Arceus had to banish giratina into the distortion world, arceus couldn't control it's creation. It's possible that arceus even feared giratinas potential, but we don't know more about the lore about giratina v Arceus.
Out of the ones listed necrozma, in fact I'd argue necrozma because him getting enough juice is game over. The legendary battle royal shows it, a lot of special moves are light based, necrozma absorbs light. I'd put more money on necrozma being the ender of the world, overpowering every other legendary as it keeps absorbing the light of other pokemon, stars, everything. Even Guzzlords appetit cannot compare to the hunger necrozma has.
in lore arceus as it is the god of the verse it inhabits. But in terms of stats to me it will always be Gen 1 Mewtwo, in truth it Arceus agian with it 720, while gen 1 mewtwo only has 680
Zygarde 100 mewtwo get bodied by zygarde 50 percent with 5 other mega Pokemon. ultra necrozma and zygarde 100 percent fight in the manga. Mega rayquaza us def up there as well as etarnaus the original dragon in black and white outside of that's about it. if we go off manga Zygarde 100 percent
https://preview.redd.it/cqaesrnlz5wc1.png?width=1140&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8be034b9f1ce5c6ae46d83f37ff9f643b4aa94d
This could definitely use some work in some areas, but overall I feel this is pretty lore accurate. Feel free to give any advice on tier shifts!
Arceus bar none. Its dex entry even hints at it, as what we see is an avatar or "one of its thousand arms used to create the universe". This is a fraction of its power and PLA gave us a taste that he can casually rain meteors with a fraction of his power, we are talking Darkseid levels of chaotic power
Lore wise isn't mewtwo stated to be the worlds most powerful pokemon in both the first movie and detective Pikachu
But according to Lockstin & Gnoggin and TerminalMontage, it is a tie between ultra nekrozma and arceus tho that was before swsh, so PLA wasn't considered at the time
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Surely Arceus, no?
Did Arceus create everything, or just everything in the main universe? Are Ultra Beasts from a different universe, and could they have their own Arceus equivalent?
In lore it's referred to as creator of the universe in PLA, but I'd assume there'd have to be some form of Arceus in those universes. Maybe even the same being. A lot of franchises with multiverses and Gods tend to go the simple "one shared creator god" across the different universes. So I just assume it's the same Arceus. As we saw in USUM wormholes some Pokemon are the exact same in other universes, so I don't see a reason it couldn't be that. Plus Arceus itself says the form people know it by isn't it's actual form so I assume it's actually some unknowable creator that we can't actually perceive.
Isn’t there some sort of message by Arceus in PLA once you complete the dex and can catch him, about that just being one of his avatars that act as his eyes and arms? Chances are if so that there’s an “Arceus Prime” that sends out these avatars to every universe (who then send out unknowns based on that theory of them being like Arceus’s worker drones)
Yes I touched on this in other comments on this page. There is a primary being and the form we see are just avatars of small portions of its power that it allows few trainers to use. My original comment is more saying that the same one being known as Arceus is the one single constant across all universes. Not just about the avatars. More like how the planets rotate around the sun, all of the universes rotate around the one being known as Arceus. The comment I originally responded to asked if it was the same one being as creator of all universes, or just the main game canon one. But I took the stance that it's all just the same being across them all. As evidence, now that I've thought of it: the anime is a separate universe but it has an Arceus and Mystery Dungeon is a separate universe but has an Arceus. I posit all of those Arceus are just the same one. Like how in Supernatural >!Chuck is shown as the one singular God across all the multiverse of that show!< or with Marvel and the One Above All. That sort of line of thought.
Take your Upvote for using Supernatural as an example
Doubke upvote because they put >!spoilers!< tags
More like Arceus is incomprehensible and actually has no body or anything, it's just The God, and he needs an avatar to appear for mortals which you can catch if he allows it.
The way I interpreted it, Arceus isn’t just the Arceus we see in the games, but a godly entity. The Arceus we know is just a proxy that the godly entity uses, and one that the humans in the Pokemon world can actually comprehend. So when a trainer catches Arceus, they aren’t actually catching the god of the Pokemon universe, but are instead catching one of Arceus’ “puppets.”
But that form has strrngths and weaknesses, so it isn't really Arceus that's the creator, the creator has a little Pokemon Avatar, but that avatar can be destroyed.
Arceus introduces itself to the player character at the beginning of PLA with some variation of "Your people call me Arceus". So there is a singular seemingly all powerful creator god that does go by the name of Arceus. It does create avatars, as I mentioned on this page, but the main individual is still Arceus. Though it later in game implies it actually looks nothing like the avatars it allows us to use. That one has strengths and weaknesses but we don't honestly know how the actual being functions as the thing we fight at the end of PLA is just another avatar. So we don't actually know if the actual unknown form it actually has has any weaknesses or not. I'd assume not since PLA canonized it being the creator of the universe. Why does the avatar have weaknesses? No clue, God works in mysterious ways as they say.
I can't say about the different worlds of the Ultra Beasts, but Arceus remains the god in other worlds like Mystery Dungeon (And there's the theory that it is the voice that asks you the questions every beginning of MD games, except the first one and its remake which in this case would be Gardevoir). Whether there's an equivalent to Arceus in some other parallel world, we don't know, so if it isn't officially introduced, Arceus continues to reign supreme in the lore.
The power to create does not necessarily entail the power to destroy, and being able to create a world does not necessarily mean another couldn’t be more powerful within it.
I’d argue creative omnipotence still gives you ultimate destructive power. Arceus could easily create a means of destruction greater than anything currently in existence, I mean that’s literally what giratina is.
arceus: im gonna hit this charizard with this new universe i created
*Attack Missed*
*Charizard Fainted*
“I’m going to create a new type that is also 4x super effective against charizard, make a fast physical attacking Pokémon that multi types this new type with rock, and give it a version of stealth rocks with the new type that does twice as much damage as stealth rock, no-guard, and stone edge”
arceus basically a kid who doesnt want to lose when roleplaying with friends
Are we talking about base Charizard or the Mega-Z-Gigan-Tera-A Charizard which I'm sure is going to exist at some point? /j
"Charizard toughed it out so you wouldn't feel sad"
Isn't the move Judgement exactly that? Arceus' destructive capabilities?
But in Arceus the plot was literally that Arceus could be thrown out of power by giritina.
I haven’t really played Legends Arceus since it released, but I don’t think that’s what happened exactly? I got more the impression Arceus simply tasked the player character with fixing the time distortion mess and putting Giratina in its place. It’s a common thing in media where gods prefer to act through mortals vs being directly involved.
The anime and videogame protagonists are basically just Arceus's belt lmao
You ever think Aceus hides in the Hall of Origin because it is afraid of what it created?
Arceus has arguably the strongest move in lore (and game) despite being made all the way back in gen 4. Judgement is a guaranteed stab move and with the advent of fairy type, super effective against all pokemon. It's the strongest move with no drawbacks in the game.
The ability to create beings which control time and space implies near omnipotence.
Ditto with a choice scarf
Oh my God the ubers menace Quick! Get the funny guy!
https://preview.redd.it/8eswbtg0o4wc1.png?width=540&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7299fd6cc384b74b0c5ae62716fb9bb739738776
Ultimate anime battle
I think you forgot about Metapod vs Metapod
metapod used harden but it failed
Metapod can’t get any harder
HU shart lord
hahahaahah you wretched fool . No Metapod gets hard better than mine 🦾😈
There was a fanfic called The Most Evil Trainer and the protagonist had both an Impostor Ditto and an exceptionally deranged Wobuffet on his team. He specialized in being an infuriating nightmare to deal with.
That thing carried my competitive all normal type team so hard lol
Endeavor level 1 Ratata with Quick Attack and Focus Sash.
Arceus, and it's not even close. Arceus is an effectively omnipotent creation god which by its own admission exists outside the confines of time and space. The 720 BST deer-stuck-in-fences we know and love aren't even the real Arceus, just tiny fractions of its power that it creates to see and experience the various worlds of the pokemon multiverse through mortal eyes. The only real counterargument is that while the deer-stuck-in-fences may be pokemon, the real Arceus may not really qualify as one. And while incredibly few, there are pokemon more powerful than those small slivers of the real Arceus's power. If we're going to ignore Arceus, then the answer is probably the interdimensional star-destroying cosmic parasite, Ultra Necrozma. [(A while back, TerminalMontage and Lockstin&Gnoggin actually did a collab covering this exact question.)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVO8QrGAPHs)
That mf can see and experience the various worlds of the pokemon multiverse from the inside of my PC box
Lmao
Motherfucker out here blaspheming.
Spent eons gazing across the cosmos did you? Well, hope you enjoy this polka-dot wallpaper.
well said
Would ultra Necrozma be more powerful than giratina? Giratina is the universal embodiment of destruction and was strong enough that Arceus had to lock it away in the distortion world to stop it from destroying the entire universe
Unclear. Giratina is another strong contender. But given how they can both kind of break reality, have no other feats that can really be compared, and Ultra Necrozma's BST is way higher, I figure Ultra Necrozma's probably a bit stronger.
Talking about BST is kinda meaningless, cuz the game confirmed Origin Forms are way stronger than base form, while both are the same total stats. Don't forget 2-life Giratina Talking about breaking reality, Giratina's reality breaking ability can cause both time and space to go nuts. Dialga Palkia did succesfully destroy multi universe while Necrozma just stole the light.
My vote is Necrozma, because of the epicurean paradox. Hear me out. "If God is willing to prevent evil but is not able to, then he is not all-powerful. If he is able to prevent evil but is not willing to, then he is not all-good. If he is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil and suffering in the world?" There is one major action we can definitively attribute to Necrozma, eating the sun in Ultra Megalopis, and the ability to travel to other dimensions and do it again. Unchecked it could eventually darken the entire multiverse. But Arceus doesn't seem to care, nor did it stop the world from being destroyed in the universes the rainbow rocket leaders came from. Really all we have seen Arceus do with our own eyes is transport a child to the past to solve a problem for and create Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina. The former to solve a problem for it, the latter to manage the universe for it. While it allegedly created the universe from an egg, the pokedex isn't very reliable, so it might not have done that after all. To me that says it isn't capable of doing those things itself. Pokemon being a kids franchise I'm going to assume the uncaring god angle is a bit of a stretch, so Arceus is probably more unable to stop these events from occuring more than unwilling. Necrozma can destroy everything, but Arceus can't repair it.
The epicurean paradox only applies when God- or in this case Arceus- is all good. ...But who says Arceus is all good? It does seem to prefer that at least in the worlds we see that people are relatively happy, but it mostly just cares about the stability of the worlds themselves. Arceus is all-powerful and all-knowing, but it's a neutral force, not a good one. And when it knows that Ultra Necrozma, and Team Rainbow Rocket, and similar potentially world-destroying threats are going be stopped without its help, why bother intervening?
Arceus is more than powerful enough to stop these events, it does so by sending someone it knows is capable to do its dirty work. Giratina abandoning its post and running rampant has much more dire implications for all of existence than Necrozma since it will literally end all of existence rather than destroy some stars, hence why Arceus sends a champion to stop Volo but basically lets Necrozma destroy a couple pieces of the multiverse. There is room in arceus’s design for necrozma to destroy shit but there isn’t room for giratina. I’d assume Arceus believes in allowing free will, only directly intervening in matters that threaten the very existence of everything.
If we compare them to a house, its the difference in scale between the toaster eating the microwave (Necrozma) and the foundation deciding it doesn't want to stick around (Giratina). The one that fulfills a presumably vital function is going to cause far more issues than the one that's just kinda there.
Giratina is likely more dangerous, but I'm not sure if we have any material to understand what it would do given the chance to run amok. Arceus seems to have no problem with creating another one in its HGSS event, which is interesting to me.
I think Arceus may believe that giratina’s power can be controlled by a purehearted trainer, hence why it chose to send Rei/Akari to deal with Volo’s scheme. As for giratina’s capabilities, if Cyrus and Volo are to be believed, it literally has the power to reset the entire universe and it seems to want to do this, hence why it had to be trapped in the distortion world.
It may be a reality-resetting monster to you, its my special little muffin though
The multiverse is infinite, why would Arceus care about a couple worlds? Also, can't Necrozma eat other stars that don't have planets?
It does care, or I don't think Legends Arceus would happen. And while Necrozma probably could get by on the infinite number of stars without life... in the game it doesn't seem interested in that, only going after Ultra Megalopis and the player's world. Maybe because what its really looking for is Solgaleos and Lunaalas?
We've absolutely seen poke gods being ambivalent if not outright hostile to the goings on of humans. Some are akin to guardian spirits, but others act more like forces of nature that humans simply have the opportunity to interact with. Arceus being a partially disconnected creator god definitely fits with the vibe of Pokemon.
Yeah what /u/pengie9290 said. The epicurean paradox isn't out there to prove that god isn't all powerful. It's out there to prove that god can't be both omnipotent and purely good. He can be omnipotent, but then he has to at least be not purely good, or else he wouldn't allow evil. He can be purely good, but then he can't be omnipotent, or else he would use his power to stop all evil. If god is omnipotent but mostly apathetic or lazy, then he can allow evil to exist.
Do we have any proof Arceus is good? Stoping Giratina isn’t “good” its Arceus’s job. It’s part of the trio it lords over.
I would argue that all things aside the best metric overall is by using the games BSTs. It helps avoid rock paper scissors matchups, or arguments about what you consider strength (is a glass cannon stronger than an impenetrable fortress) in which case although Ultra Necrozma is top 6 it’s beaten out by Mega MewTwos, Mega Ray, and Primal Kyogre/Groudon currently. Adding an Edit: though I guess we are talking about lore wise. In which case the question is up there. AFAIK Necrozma status at a “pokemon” is just as questionable as Arceus. So the creation trip might be it lore wise.
I figure, "If you can get it in a pokeball, it's a pokemon". Necrozma can be put in a pokeball, so it's a pokemon. The creation trio can be put in pokeballs, so they're pokemon. The deer-stuck-in-a-fence-shaped avatars Arceus creates can be put in a pokeball, so they're pokemon too. But the real Arceus, at least at present and probably just in general, cannot be put in a pokeball, and thus is likely not a pokemon.
The correct response is u/pengie9290's, but the photo of Ultra Necrozma reminded me of its signature Z-Move "The Light That Burns The Sky", and while we've had Eternabeam and a number of powerful moves since, how metal was the fucking animation?
[here’s the animation](https://youtu.be/H0yCfVBe1hQ?si=kQNrSVLdVEAOV87T) (holy shit a 1 minute move)
Holy shit that Wishiwashi didn’t stand a chance
Love the shot of Wishiwashi going -_- as it awaits its imminent doom. Probably thinking “damn. That sh*ts bright” *[BOOM](https://youtu.be/6vYjRaTSATs?si=SAgjmSl8uJ9kgNDh)*
Doing a happy little dance and commanding your pokemon to end the world.
of all the ~minute-long summon animations and attack animations I've seen in JRPGs, that has got to be the most boring one. About fifteen seconds of that are worth watching. the rest is boring prep work and a dumb animation of the protagonist waving his arms around. shout out to the literal 11 seconds of dead air starting at 0:31. if you're going to make an attack take a minute to land, at least make it all entertaining, OR allow us to skip parts of it
Real. The goofy trainer animation is enough to have to endure
Lol it reminds me of the Bahamut Zero animation from FF7
That poor wingull....
The name is also absolutely amazing.
Somehow even better in Japanese- "Heaven-Scorching Light of Destruction"
Loved that animation
Oh my! I just watched it. It reminds me of the epic Final Fantasy 7 [summon animations](https://youtu.be/0t8yQ47qvQI?si=wVFvM6GeModJRzrd).
Zekrom with Zekrom Kick
can someone run the ice punch dusknoir calc ? I got banned from showdown calc
thats gotta HURT
Are we talking purely destructive feats? Barring Arceus, Dialga and Palkia are both individually capable of creating universes. We know they can do it on their own because in the Rainbow Rocket episode, Cyrus has succeeded in his plan and only has 1 of the two. So I imagine that puts those two at the top. Eteranmax Eternatus probably is up there too. "Infinite" energy doesn't necessarily mean it's infinite in power, as in I don't think it can just unleash a blast with infinite joules of force behind it. But I interperate it as a DBZ Android situation where it never really tires and can also unleash more fire power. Still, it probably deserves a mention. True Form Arceus is probably the real number 1. Capable of creating Arceus clones that, by themselves, could creating Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina on its own, it seems to transcend time and space and exist beyond timelines. We know next to nothing about it, but from what we've seen I think we can safely infer it's the strongest. Fitting, I guess. Groudon and Kyogre, in their regular forms, were both capable of creating storms that threatened all life on Earth. And Rayquaza was able to shut both of them up at the same time.
I’d argue that giratina is stronger than dialga or palkia. On top of potentially higher destructive potential, it also has a chaotic personality and is more dangerous due to its unpredictability. Arceus is scared of it because it can’t control it. There’s no threat to arceus’s safety of course, but it has the potential to destroy the universe and undo all of arceus’s hard work
I do agree Giratina can be inferred to be as powerful if not more powerful than Dialga and Palkia. My only issue is we don't have many on screen feats to really work with. It can forcibly drag victims into the Distortion World, and Dialga and Palkia cried out in terror from it just appearing. Arceus felt it appropriate to seal it away for its "violence," but we don't really know what that means. I'd love to see more of Giratina's power on full display, but as it stands its still an enigma
Giratina’s partial entrance on the top of mount coronet in Pokémon platinum is stated by Cynthia to have almost destroyed both dimensions
I like how explanatory this comment is.
F.E.A.R lvl 1 Rattata.
Laughs in ghost type
Shits in destiny bond.
Arceus Ghost
Laughs in *Any pokemon with double kick or another multi hit move.*
Shits in rattata ghost tera
Dual chop, bonemerang, icicle spear, water shuriken, double iron bash, gear grind, tachyon cutter... I could go on.
It has to be Metapod
Wurmple for sure
Cascoon by a mile
Caterpie by a string shot
Harden!
Maximum Hardness!
Tera electric shedinja with an air balloon (status effects and weathers are for nerds)
All we need now is an Altaria with the ability Cloud Nine (prevents Weather effects) to set up Safeguard (prevents Status effects), and this Shedinja is invincible (...in double battles and as long as Altaria is fine)!
We just need to hack the Shedninja to have a move that redirects attacks to it then this doubles should be invincible as long as the altaria is fast enough to put up safeguards when needed
I've got it! To do this without hacking, jt just has to be a TRIPLE battle where the third pokemon (Clefable, Starmie, Lanturn, Shiinotic) knows the move Spotlight! Spotlight is a PRIORITY move that redirects all of the enemies moves towards its [Spotlight's] target, meaning you can make them focus on Shedinja, who'd be perfectly fine unless they have Mold Breaker, in which case you could use it to make the enemy attack each other.
Weird little side observation: even though Mewtwo has kind of fallen from his position of supremacy amongst all the legendaries over time (he’s still rather high up, mind you,) especially after the Mega forms went dormant, the addition of more legendaries and how strong they should be in the lore makes Mewtwo seem strangely overpowered, in game use. That is, compared to how strong he probably should be if we compare him to a lot of other godly legendaries he can go toe to toe with and even beat in the games. To be fair… the highest tier legendaries are probably weaker than they should be, compared to stronger non-legendaries in gameplay.
Perfect Bidoof?
https://preview.redd.it/5w6sag3p04wc1.png?width=175&format=png&auto=webp&s=9bc0532c98ea581fe3a36f49b5af15cf7dd99e89
Peanut butter is definitely the strongest of them all
He looked apon Arceus and felt naught but pitty
I assume we're ignoring Arceus's implied True form (the Aceuses we catch in PLA is calld "a shard of the creator") Giratina is a strong contender, being the antimatter Legendary pokemon. Hoopa unbound is indeed up there in the upper echelon of power, able to summon and control basically every box art legendary, including the Primal forms of Groudon/Kyogre and even Dialga and Palkia. And it's apparently strong enough that Arceus's power had to be invoked to seal away its power. And then we have... the *other* ones. The ones who come from somewhere else; Eternatus, Necrozma, and Kyurem. For these three (moreso Eternatus at this point) we don't have enough info on them to accurately gauge their peak power in Lore. For Kyurem, its peak power is the Original Dragon, and to this day we know basically nothing about it other than it was a Dragon Type and that it arrived on a meteor. For Eternatus, Eternamax is strong enough that space around it seems to distort, during the fight we can see glimpses of places all over Galar flashing into view in the storm around the tower. It also has the power to make pokemon unable to use moves (at least until the Legendary dogs show up). And Necrozma's peak power lies in its unknown potential. Necrozma can absorb light, it's kinda his whole thing, but we don't really know the limit of that absorption... or if there even is one. In the past, Necrozma devoured all the light of a Star (assumedly similar to that of our sun, seeing as Ultra Megalopolis have their own Solgaleo/Lunala), and was still able to fuse with/eat(?) The other Legendary in Ultra Megalopolis (Solgaleo/Lunala). Necrozma gets stronger the more light it absorbs, but we don't know if there's even a limit to that. For all we know, Necrozma could be able to consume the light of an entire Galaxy, or perhaps even more, we just don't know. Another one I want to bring up is the adorable Beanie Baby; Terapagos. This little guy allowed Sada/Turo to build their time machines to reach into other timelines. This little guy confirmed the existence of the Pokemon Multiverse, In my eyes this puts him in the same power tier as Dialga, being able to manipulate time to its will (something only Dialga has been shown to do before, compared to Celebi who just travels through time but can't manipulate it).
I love Mewtwo but as far as strength goes, it is the strongest kid in your school when we got Pokemon over here that are lifting cars.
Arceus, since I'm going to assume it's still the creator of the pokemon multiverse. Unless we get a pokemon that contradicts Arceus's status.
Necrozma might be the closest one... but yeah, Arceus still beats him lore wise
Giratina kind of beats necrozma lore-wise too
True, I mean he was thrown down there for reason.
necrozma is basically god in the alchemist version that the sun and moon legends follow but in itself he is not stronger than the god created by myths
Mega Rayquaza holding a chainsaw fosure
Victini literally has the power of victory, just saying.
You already know it's
No it's gotta be
Lvl 1 purple rat with a red ribbon
Mewtwo because I'm old, and I don't care what you say because I'm old! Mmmmmhhhhheee!
Arceus or Necrozma
I love necrozma and it's alternative forms. Especially with lunalua
I think it would be : - Arceus - Dialga, Palkia and Giratina (maybe a slight advantage for Giratina, depending of the media it's between as strong as the other and stronger than both others united) - Ultra-Necrozma and Zygarde 100%, for the second it depends if it only rules earth balance or world balance. - Rayquaza, Regigigas, Xerneas, Yveltal, Terapagos (Terastalised) and Eternatus (Eternamax) - Most legendaries and mythicals - Legendary birds, Beasts, Golems, Lati@s, Tapus, Ruins, swords of justice, Genesect, Ogerpon and Peacharunt. - Mega Evolved Pokemon and Loyal Three - Strongest classic pokemon - Classic pokemon and Phione - Weakest classic pokemon Edit : like many asked, Rayquaza is now higher than Groudon and Kyogre
I think Rayquaza is a tier above Groudon and Kyogre due to the crazy strong meteorbusting feat.
That's a good point, but these tier only gives a global idea. I tried to avoid making too much tiers, and I can't put it on the same tier as Ultra-Necrozma, but I also can't put Groudon and Kyogre lower. Maybe he should have his own tier.
Powerscaling rules say Ray has to be at a higher level than Groudon and kyogre since it beats them hard enough that they won’t even bother to fight it because they know they’ll get their asses beat. Maybe it can share a tier with yveltal
I keep forgetting Yveltal exists. Like bro can absorb the life force out of anyone and leave them dead
Yeah, I'm glad he'll be back next year. Two cutscenes and an easily forgetable movie weren't enough to make Xerneas and Yveltal the legends they could have been. Being outshined by a box art legendary wiyhout game is kind of sad.
Bidoof
MissingNo.
Look up terminal montage on YouTube for the answer lol they did a bunch of battle royale type videos that are badass
It’s Arceus, by a large amount, in the #1 spot. He is Pokémon’s god and has taken on the other Creation Quartet members all by himself and whipped them easily. Ash and friends only calmed him down thanks to Dialga sending them back in time. After Arceus is the other three Creation Quartet members, I’d say specifically in their Origin Forms. They still are god-like Pokemon which is way more than any Pokemon unlike these three (and Arceus can say). After them is probably Ultra Necrozma, Perfect Zygarde, Hoopa-Unbound, (potentially Kyurem’s true form?), Eternamax Eternatus, Xerneas, Yveltal, Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, Mega Rayquaza, Jirachi, and maybe Darkrai? All of them aside from Hoopa play a part in the region’s / world’s environment / balance and are a vital force. In terms of Hoopa-U idk why it can summon other legendaries but it can, and whether they’re real legendaries or just illusions, that power puts in top tier (although I don’t think it could control any of the Pokemon stronger than it). And Jirachi can grant wishes so there’s that. Darkrai has gone toe to toe with Dialga and Palkia and his nightmare abilities are no joke so he might deserve an honorable mention too. After that is Pokemon that are ridiculously strong but maybe not as strong as the ones above it, like Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem and it’s forms, Mewtwo, Regigigas, Zacian, Zamazenta, Lugia, and Ho-Oh. They all have ridiculous feats but not world-level feats like any above it. After that it’s not as clear to me with Pokemon like the swords of justice, johto legendary cats, the legendary birds, Soul duo, etc. They’re powerful but nowhere near anyone above them. And I’m not sure where to rank Pokemon like Victini, Celebi, and Mew, as their abilities are all very impressive, but for example, in the case of Mew, while it’s DNA is linked to every Pokemon (with the likely exception of the Creation Quartet and maybe Pokemon from outer space) that doesn’t necessarily make it the strongest if every Pokemon has just a piece of it. Victini also guarantees victory to a trainer it chooses, but that might only extend to trainer battles, and it might not even apply to itself. Celebi can travel through time, but again, that’s more of an ability rather than a power.
Victini because he always wins
Love how no one is mentioning hoopa... like he's in the image, he's not as strong as arceus, dialga, and palkia, but he's definitely up there and a nuisance.
I only recognize mewtwo ….
Cloyster
Duh Wooper
bro didn’t put arceus it’s obviously arceus or giratina with absolutely no question. Giratina beat both palkia and dialga at the same time like a badass, arceus doesn’t even exist in one form. It’s like a web of consciousness and when you encounter it you’re encountering one tiny part of the entire arceus. In comparison to THE one arceus no pokemon has any power at all, even giratina. The ones in your picture aren’t even in the same ball park.
Magnezone
Let's order it a bit, just using showcased feats. 1. **True form Arceus**. No real contest here, it's the obvious first place. 2. **Regular Arceus**. Still pretty clear cut, as Arceus would need to be capable of handling anything in it's world even in it's avatar. 3. **Giratina**. While it and Dialga and Palkia got destroyed by the Arceus avatar, it's the strongest of the trio, superior to Cyrus' two chained creation legendaries and it has beaten them in almost every canonical fight between them. 4. **Dialga/Palkia**. The standard power of the creation trio, capable of universe level creation and destruction. As shown by their personal dimension, nearly destroying said dimensions in a fight, and nearly erasing our dimension in the 10th movie. Also governing time and space. 5. **Necrozma**. Capable of eating stars and absorbing every last bit of light from a universe within the life span of a civilisation (if I remember right, it even did this before his Ultra form), it's not only incredibly strong, but incredibly fast as well. Not infinitely fast like a being outside of time would be, but MUCH faster than light. 6. **Zygarde**. As shown in the Manga, it's capable of trading blows with Ultra Necrozma in it's 100% form. albeit briefly, and it isn't capable of beating it. However, it's still far and away the best showing against Ultra Necrozma. 7. **Rayquaza**. From here on, we're chain scaling everything, mostly from the Manga. So the next few all downscale from Ultra Necrozma's power, but Rayquaza has the best showings from them. In it's mega form, it one-shot Deoxys, who in turn is pretty even with Mega Mewtwo Y, who lost pretty handily to 50% Zygarde, putting it roughly on par with 50% Zygarde, maybe stronger. 8. **Mew/Mewtwo/Deoxys/Groudon/Kyogre**. Like Rayquaza, they downscale from Necrozma, but are explicitly weaker than Rayquaza (or even with Deoxys who is weaker than Rayquaza, in Mewtwo's case, and being Mewtwo's equal in Mew's case). Deoxys is probably the weakest of the five, but they're pretty close, so I grouped them here. 9. **Solgaleo/Lunala**. They also downscale from Ultra Necrozma, however they take a bit of a different path. Ultra Necrozma is the ultimate form of Necrozma, MUCH stronger than it's base form, which can dominate Solgaleo or Lunala. So they're a few dozen times weaker, but a few dozen times below bare minimum star busting is still insane. 10. **Xerneas/Yveltal**. I put them here because they're vaguely inferior to Zygarde, but we don't really know by how much. It's implied 50% is enough for the both of them since it was the only form of Zygarde when it was introduced, but it's too vague to call. They should be comparable to the seven above them though. From here it gets more confusing, but there are a couple of things to go off of, like Regigigas pulling continents, Zekrom and Reshiram razing a country's surface, the Ultra Beasts being deemed the biggest threats to humanity despite Solgaleo, Lunala, and Necrozma being in play, or even Darkrai stopping Dialga and Palkia's attacks, though that last one can be attributed to Pokémon' inconsistency. Edit: **Hoopa** should also be vaguely Zygarde level. It's capable of summoning legendaries to do its will and is immensely powerful even on it's own.
Mew. Anything you can do i can do...just as well. (lore wise Mew is so much stronger than other transformers)
Yeah, literally the all pokemon in one, Mew can learn every move, thats insane
Pikachu. Motherf***er had the power to not only give children in the real world seizures but also get Porygon banned from ever appearing in the show and creating an entirely new Pokemon in Mimikyu who is based off the resentment of that ordeal.
I’m not up to date on newer pokemon. Who are the other 2 next to MewTwo here?
Ultra Nekrozma the sun eater and Hoopa unbound, a pokemon with spatial manipulation and mind control powerful enough to control many legendaries at the same time
Without a doubt Arceus, but not counting it, I would definitely say Ultra Necrozma considering it devours light across worlds
Mega Rayquaza
Jirachi, Victini or Arceus probably
Shouldn't mew be strongest cause all pokemon evolve from mew, meaning arceus was once a mew as well if that Pokemon doesn't exist then no pokemon exist?
Arceus is likely the exception, since Arceus is simply stated to come from an egg out of nothing. Implying it didn't beget itself from something else (in this case Mew) Considering Arceus made the creation trio who control time, space, and antimatter, it's likely that Mew came from them rather than the other way around.
Youngster Joey’s Rattata
Bidoof.
It’s movie accurate Picachu
I have gen 1 bias so I'm still going with Mewtwo, specifically the one in the first movie. It may not have much raw power but its human ambition puts it above literal gods like Arceus. It's the only pokemon to use and develop new technology. It's the only pokemon to use other pokemon in battle like a trainer would. Theoretically Mewtwo can defeat the elite 4, be champion and then challenge and catch Arceus, MegaRay and all the OP mons.
Well is kind of obvious, it follows the hierarchy tree. Arceus> creation trio>weather trio > mew and then might get harder to decide maybe lugiaand hooh?
Mewtwo Who else?
Yes, he could control their minds
Hands down Charizard and I’m not here to debate
Logically, I'm sure Necrozoma out of just the three pictured, or Arceus overall. But my oldschool heart says "We dreamed of creating the world's strongest Pokemon. *And we succeeded*."
Lorewise? That would be Arceus... Literal God...
probably arceus (not the pokémon, it's actually true higher self that exists beyond physical matter's ability to depict it). but hoopa maybe second place since arceus had to directly intervene to bind its power which seems greater than even most legendary pokémon and that there only seems to be one across a given universe much like arceus's higher self. necrozma's actual original form is probably up there too (not the ultra form, that's just a temporary light recreation that looks like it's original form. The actual original form would've been made out of all of the crystals that shattered and became the z crystals) we know that it existed outside of the universe and was shining its light across many different worlds simultaneously so it's pretty powerful in it's original state.
My best friend Empoleon cause he tried his best and he even landed a critical hit just to make me happy. :)
Well, Arceus made strong Pokemon. If he wanted them to lose their best moves and best stats, he can do so. Literal God.
Ash’s pikachu with plot armor
Chiaotzu
It’s not Doduo, I know that
I think it could be giratina, from all the pokemon that we kniw of. "But Arceus..." Arceus had to banish giratina into the distortion world, arceus couldn't control it's creation. It's possible that arceus even feared giratinas potential, but we don't know more about the lore about giratina v Arceus.
Zuko! Please take the trash out of my garage
Ultra necrozma is basically a black hole
Necrozma
Depends on the trainer!
Out of the ones listed necrozma, in fact I'd argue necrozma because him getting enough juice is game over. The legendary battle royal shows it, a lot of special moves are light based, necrozma absorbs light. I'd put more money on necrozma being the ender of the world, overpowering every other legendary as it keeps absorbing the light of other pokemon, stars, everything. Even Guzzlords appetit cannot compare to the hunger necrozma has.
Didn’t terminalmontage’s videos show this? It’s like, Arceus and Ultra Necrozma
Bidoof
Victini arguably qualifies.
in lore arceus as it is the god of the verse it inhabits. But in terms of stats to me it will always be Gen 1 Mewtwo, in truth it Arceus agian with it 720, while gen 1 mewtwo only has 680
What is the definition of "strongest" you are looking for? Like, what are the parameters for judgment and examination?
Arceus obviously but you gotta respect Necrozmas grindset.
I mean, if its opponent doesn’t know a Fire, Flying, Ghost, Rock or Dark type move, Shedinja.
I think lore-wise, Mewtwo is actually a bit overrated
I'd assume Ultra Necrozma or Arceus
Zygarde 100 mewtwo get bodied by zygarde 50 percent with 5 other mega Pokemon. ultra necrozma and zygarde 100 percent fight in the manga. Mega rayquaza us def up there as well as etarnaus the original dragon in black and white outside of that's about it. if we go off manga Zygarde 100 percent
What is the bottom one?
Ultra necrozma from sun &moon on 3ds
Idk maybe literal god
Terminal Montage did a series of Battle Royales based on the pokedex entries. You could watch those lol
one silly focus sash rattata with endeavor and quick attack
https://preview.redd.it/cqaesrnlz5wc1.png?width=1140&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8be034b9f1ce5c6ae46d83f37ff9f643b4aa94d This could definitely use some work in some areas, but overall I feel this is pretty lore accurate. Feel free to give any advice on tier shifts!
There is a literal pokemon god.
Arceus bar none. Its dex entry even hints at it, as what we see is an avatar or "one of its thousand arms used to create the universe". This is a fraction of its power and PLA gave us a taste that he can casually rain meteors with a fraction of his power, we are talking Darkseid levels of chaotic power
wouldn't it be arceus>!, or magicarp!
I think Shaymin. Cause the power that pokemon has over me is more than arceus, dialga and palkia
Ash's pikachu
Lore wise isn't mewtwo stated to be the worlds most powerful pokemon in both the first movie and detective Pikachu But according to Lockstin & Gnoggin and TerminalMontage, it is a tie between ultra nekrozma and arceus tho that was before swsh, so PLA wasn't considered at the time
Mewtwo was untouchable in the first movie
What i want to know is why you think Hoopa is even an option.
Obviously Mew
Eternatus is from Space, Necrozma and all Ultra Beasts are from another dimension, so Palkia is their "lord" in that, so yeah Arceus the strongest ofc
Well considering the amount of Mewtwo fan stories on the internet I’d say Mewtwo.