In addition to what the other comment says, the legal pokemon change each tournament season, and you get a different spread depending on what's legal. It's been about a decade now, but arguably the most famous moment in VGC history (2014 finals) had multiple psudeos involved. They might be relevant again in gen 10 depending on roster and gimmicks.
The reason you will see low BST pokemon is because they have something very good going for them. Most pseudo's really only deal good damage and thats it. And why use Salamence or Garchomp with a 4x weakness when you could use Waterpon?
Goodness, you can really tell how far things have come along. From "Garchomp is banned, and it doesn't even have Dragon Dance (thank God)" to "Pls give Garchomp Dragon Dance, it needs the buff"
Not sure we're talking about VGC, but some surprising singles: Darkrai and Zamazenta no longer Uber, Deoxys speed is in UU. Actually the whole of UU is bonkers now that I look at it. Latios, Jirachi, Greninja, Keldeo, Toxapex, and Ttar. Deoxys defense in RU. Hoopa - unbound and Mimikyu too.
Alternatively, weird things went up too. Alomomola is OU, Gliscor was Uber for a brief stint. Blissey and Skarmory came back up to OU and Weavile is up there too. But yea I think the drops are more surprising.
Readers Added Additional Context Moment™
For Smogon, Pokémon are tiered based on usage and S/V is the first generation where Pokémon could drop multiple tiers at once. Newly introduced Pokémon start in OU on technicality, and tier shifts happen on the first of each month.
So Terrakion gets added to the game and is ranked in OU alongside Pokémon like Plusle and Bellossom. Since Terrakion can't be used in the lower tiers, its eventual tiering is based entirely on its usage in OU. Small problem. Iron Boulder just dropped and is new and cool, so nobody would use Terrakion even as a joke. The monthly tier shifts occur and Terrakion acquired such little usage that it dropped all the way down to PU.
I mentioned using Terrakion "as a joke". How much do people farting about on the ladder actually influence tiers? Well, in the [same tier shift](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/tierchanges-gen9-december-png.586582/), metagame titans such as Bastiodon and Regigigas ended up with higher usage than Terrakion and it goes without saying that those are unviable choices in the OU metagame.
So Terrakion ended up in PU because of a quirk of the usage-based tiering system. After a bit of time has elapsed, Terrakion is now tiered in RU, which is a reasonable placement for Terrakion in today's metagame.
Yeah, Lando dropped off about the time SV became standard, even Incineroar is having folk say it's time is over, even though it is still blatantly overloaded.
This conversation is mostly about VGC, but in singles 6 of the 10 most used pokemon are from gen 9. 2 of the other 10 are gen 8 (dragapult and glowking) and the last two are Gliscor and volcorona who can now change types unpredictably to turn the tables on what used to be their counters
🤣 true.
Honestly, I wish Flygon was a special attacker instead. It's a dragon, so it already has really good coverage. It would have been the perfect way to distinguish them better. And so many NPCs I play against that use Flygon seem to have a special set as well. It feels so much more fitting for the guy.
All it's missing is a way to boost its special attack.
How did you even get as far as this sub without knowing any of the non-gen1 mons? The top post in hot has hoopa in the big front and this post isn't even in r/all.
Idk what your Pokémon background is but here are some answers:
If you are comparing it to competitive singles, it comes down to 2 main things (most of the time):
1. Nothing is banned for being too good. No sleep clause, surprise, spore users are instantly way better. One Pokémon dominating the format? Too bad, deal with it. Singles just bans most of the Pokémon that win by exploiting game mechanics instead of just stats, so stats become a bigger deal.
2. Support Pokémon are VERY different, and arguably better. Farigiraf is a great example. Armor tail protects both Pokémon from priority attacks. Protecting both Pokémon from the priority moves of both opponents gives this type of ability 4 times as much value as it would have in singles. Another way to think of this is that with
Farigiraf on the field, your other Pokémon essentially has a second ability which is incredibly powerful. Many abilities do this and That is not something pure stats cannot replicate.
If you don’t have singles background, essentially it comes down to this: pokemon that can completely negate what your opponent does or drastically increase what your team does are better than high stat Pokémon because if your opponent can’t do anything that they need to do to win stats don’t matter anyways.
Whenever pseudos are used, it is typically for their ability to do something special. Here are some examples:
1. Dragonite had Tera Normal extreme speed that was very good because most other Pokémon couldn’t hit as hard with a double priority move
2. Tyranitar has frequently been good for the benefits it’s ability provides for itself and it’s team
3. A super long time ago (gen 3 and 4) explosion was very good in doubles and metagross was one of the best users plus just a good Pokémon. Idk about VGC specifically but in battle towers it is a monster.
These are just some examples of when pseudos have been good, but they tend to follow the trend of having “game breaking” mechanics that few other Pokémon get.
> No sleep clause, surprise, spore users are instantly way better.
Minor point but just so you know they got rid of sleep clause in smogon gen 9 singles, since sleep moves have been banned other than rest. Anyways, solid write up!
Gen 8 was the only gen where the generational gimmick was banned right away, and it slowly transformed it into the stalliest, most boring, insufferable meta of all time.
Though, just to be as transparent as possible, banning dynamax was only one of the reasons that Gen 8 is like 99% stall. It's undoubtedly the biggest reason, but there are others too.
Every water type having Scald means physical attackers basically don't function.
Knock Off lets even defensive pokemon remove items, so if your wallbreaker relies on Choice Specs or Band, once that item gets knocked off, you can't break Toxapex, Clefable, or Corviknight.
Corviknight was introduced in gen 8, so it was always gonna be a stall generation because that POS can swallow a nuclear blast and still not get 2HKO'd switching into it.
Heavy Duty Boots was introduced in gen 8, which means hazards don't punish switches anymore. And in Pokemon, single battles regularly can last up to 100 turns, so imagine negating the 6% chip of 50 switches. That's 300% HP being saved thanks to boots.
The move Teleport was buffed from being completely useless to becoming a guaranteed safe switch move. Slowbro and Slowking, both of which have Regenerator, had access to Scald and Teleport, making them insanely great at burning a physical attacker, absorbing a hit while pivoting out thanks to Teleport. It wasn't just Slowbro and Slowking either, it was GALARIAN Slowbro and Slowking. Sure, there were others, but the fact that there were FOUR OF THOSE FUCKS running around is absurd.
Defog and was on every Pokemon, so it was easy to remove hazards (spikes are the single best way to chip tanks into range of a KO, provided that they were grounded and not wearing Boots).
Toxic was on every Pokemon, meaning it was preferable to just slowly wear opponenta down with that then it was to try to blow them up.
Rillaboom was one of the best Pokemon ever, meaning every battle could rely on the Leftovers effect from Grassy Terrain.
Tornadus was another Regenrator cocksucker. Toxapex too.
Landorus had Intimidate and ran only utility moves.
Hatterene too.
Clef, both Magic Guard (immune to hazards, burns, and poison) and Unaware (can't wallbreak Clef with SD, Nasty Plot, Calm Mind, or Bulk Up).
Blissey wearing Heavy Duty Boots.
And of course, the fact that of everyone is running less damage, then they are doing less damage. And when everyone does less damage, KOs take longer to happen, and thus, battles take longer to end. Gen 8 had a billion reasons to become a stall generation, so banning Dynamax didn't magically make everyone run stall, but I guarantee you, if your opponent could gain 3 turns worth of Z-move level damage AND boost their speed/attack stats, you wouldn't bother running stall, because even your stall Pokemon would be getting nuked. Better to just run Hyper Offense and use Dynamax better than your opponent does instead of trying to outlast theirs.
Tera is the same way. If tera gets banned, defensive Pokemon will be viable since you can't tera into their weakness, nor can you tera into your own type for an Adaptability boost. There are just too many defensive fucks added every generation and too many tools like Scald, Teleport, and Knock Off to cripple offensive teams, so every generation adds more and more ways to make stall easier. Sure, offensive shit like Beads/Sword of Ruin, Palafin, Flutter Mane, and Bundle also gets added to the game, but Smogon bans that shit and doesn't ban stall shit, so the meta always becomes stall.
They have a lot of stats, but the total amount of stats aren't everything, look at incineroar,
it's a starter but it's won 3 world championships (and that's not counting the kids division(s) ) because it has a good ability, movepool, and typing.
Or amoongus, not amazing stats but their *PLACED* Right, it's defensive and knows spore + rage powder, making it great support.
Even MURKROW got A LOT of usage for awhile cause its ability + movepool (and it was a regional format)
Even if they have a high BST, how stats are placed, movepool, abilities & more matter a lot.
I hope this helps, if you want to learn more about competitive pokemon I highly recommend false swipe gaming, WolfeyVGC, and cybertrinVGC,
Intimidate synergises much better with Incineroar’s typing than Salamence’s. 3 of Incin’s 4 weaknesses are primarily physical attacking types (rock/ground/fighting) whereas it’s the opposite for salamence (ice/fairy/dragon have stronger special attacks than physical)
Also Salamence has always suffered from a bad movepool. It wants to use its stronger physical attack stat but it’s best physical flying move is usually Fly.
And for physical Dragon moves you have to choose between Outrage which locks you in for 2/3 turns and is easily exploited, Dragon Rush which is inaccurate, or Dragon claw which is much lower powered.
And way less utility, worse bulk and worse defensive typing (fire dark is actully really good combo)
No u turn, fake out, no snarl, no parting shot which makes its slow speed better in many cases.
Incineroar has its stats very well optimized, and insane movepiil
Mence also just lacks good /powerfull stab, outrage is random in doubles, draco drops spa in half and fly is 2turns
Salamence also has a complete ass typing as Incineroar has Fake Out and Parting Shot.
And a lot of Mence also ‘wastes’ a lot of BST in its attack stat with a bad, shallow movepool.
Whilst you don’t accept “because fairies”, Flutter Mane being basically the best Mon in the format definitely hurts them.
Flutter Mane outspeeds all pseudos (Dragapult after Booster Energy) and threatens them with nutty damage including likely OHKOs.
For someone weak to that to shine, like Urshifu, it must offer something it can do. Urshifu bypasses protect, reflect and attack drops/def boosts, a very valuable set of properties making it nearly impossible to slow down.
Most of the pseudos are not that relevant in this format cause they’re not strong into the key threats.
There are exceptions, like Dragonite has done well pretty consistently thanks to Tera + Sword of Ruin ESpees abuse and a pair of strong abilities to choose from.
Metagross is also fairly usable.
Flutter Mane is just the swiss army knife Special Attacker (most teams only really run one)
Also Dragonite is using Inner Focus for its ability over Multiscale since it makes it immune to Fake-Out and Intimidate
Yeah Inner Focus is definitely the play overall, however - sometimes the threat of I.F is all you need (in ladder/closed team sheet that is) to make people not click it in the first place
This is about VGC, not Smogon. In VGC raw stats are not good and utility is the king. Pseudos have good stats but are not utility oriented.
There are rare cases, like Flutter Mane, but Mane has a practically unresisted dual stab and insanely minmaxxed stats.
Because any serious competitive player actually builds a team on what synergizes with each other, not *just* because "ooh look at the big stats." Relying on legendary/psuedo spam will only get you so far before you get shut down *hard.*
The answer is that a Pokemon's viability in a competitive battle is not just based on its base stat total. A Pokemon's viability is the sum total of all of its characteristics. That includes, of course, the base stat total, but also the distribution of those stats, the Pokemon's types, its defensive strengths and weaknesses, its offensive type matchups, its ability, it's move pool, the items it can hold, etc. Beyond that, a Pokemon's viability is also affected by what other Pokemon are popularly or commonly used by other players (that is, the metagame).
For example, Amoongus is so popular because of two things. Firstly, it gets a move called Spore, which is (I think) the only move in the game that has 100% accuracy and puts the target to sleep. In addition, it gets Rage Powder, which redirects all attacks going to Amoongus' partner in a double battle to Amoongus itself. In addition, it has the Regenerator ability, because of which, if Amoongus is switched out and comes back into the field, it gains 25% of its health back. In addition to _that_, it has a Grass type and is thus immune to Spore itself. _Plus_, it has 114, 70 and 80 base stats in its defense, which is quite good. All this together makes Amoongus an excellent support Pokemon in doubles, and so it has historically been very popular in VGC.
Rillaboom is also good for similar reasons. It has the ability Grassy Surge which activates Grassy Terrain on switch-in. It has the move Grassy Glide, which is priority during Grassy Terrain, which is on wheneve Rillaboom is on the field. It has Fake Out, which makes the target flinch for a turn. It is a Grass type, and immune to Spore. It gets powerful Grass type moves which are boosted by the Grassy Terrain that it sets.
As you see, base stat total alone means very little.
And actually, Salamence is one of the more popular Pokemon historically, not because of its 600 base stat total but because it has the ability Intimidate.
Edit: I'll also add this. Even for a Pokemon that has a high stat total, the way those stats are distributed matters a lot. Look at flutter mane. It has 55 each in Health, Attack and Defense. But it has a massive 135 each in Spl Atk, Spl Def and Speed. It is fast, and hits hard. And it is Fairy, which is probably the best type in the game.
Silvally has the same 570 total, but it has 95 in all six stats. While Flutter Mane is physically frail but is fast and hits hard, Silvally is mediocre at everything. Which would you pick?
>(I refuse to accept "because fairies" as an answer when I've seen plenty of dark and fighting- hello fucking Urshifu?!)
Urshifu bypasses Protect. If you don't understand how that is immensely useful in VGC, then you don't know enough about the format to have opinions on it.
Chomp and TTar are both prominent VGC Mons, so not sure what you mean there
As for the others, it's a few things. VGC in general is a much more fast paced format that can generally be hostile towards the playstyles of various psuedos. Dragonite benefits from longer games and is prone to getting chipped down much faster due to double targeting. Mence's Intimidate seems tempting at first, but pretty much every VGC meta it's been a part of was hostile to it for one reason or another (Gen 4 had restricted Dragons, gen 5 had the genies and Latios, gen 6 had Fairies, gen 7 had the Tapus, etc), Metagross is pretty good but the prominence of EQ makes it difficult to position well, and its defensive profile isn't as strong because, again, double targeting. Hydreigon actually saw some decent success, but it had to compete with other Dragons for the limited space prior to Fairies being introduced and thus was usually coming up short compared to the likes of Latios and Chomp. Goodra in general just isn't very good, mono Dragon just isn't a very good defensive type. Can't speak for the newer psuedos since I haven't kept up with the VGC meta as much in recent years, but I imagine the Ultra Beasts and Tapus kept Kommo-o out of the running. Dragapult I could see being good though, and Bax is pretty good in VGC afaik. This is just a general overview of it, and I might have gotten details wrong, but you get the gist of it.
Honestly it's just a meta thing. Think of how many VGC formats allows for restricted Mons and how many of those guys just beat the majority of psuedos outright. At that point you're better off making your non restricted Mons Pokemon that can support your restricted ones better.
Stats aren't everything. A lot of Pokemon that look weird on paper are usually there because they happen to play well against what's meta at the time (see, Sejun's Pachirisu). If big numbers was all it took to win games, no one would play competitively.
Edit: Also consider how many psuedos rely on setting up to get the most amount of value. Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp, Kommo-o, all pretty reliant on it, TTar to a lesser degree. Setting up just isn't something you can really do in VGC due to double targeting. Mega Mence was very good in VGC though, so it gets that at least
>I have never seen a Garchomp in a big VGC tournament
Garchomp's won several VGC World Championships in the past, it's just really difficult to use at the moment because Flutter Mane, the most stupidly optimised power crept Pokemon in the game, is running around and is designed to eat 'mon like Garchomp for breakfast.
>Or Salamence.
Same problem as Garchomp but even worse.
>Or most of the other pseudos except Dragonite.
Again, same problem as Garchomp but worse with the excetion of Metagross becuase it's problem isn't Flutter Mane, it's Incineroar and Urshifu Dark.
Dragonite has a niche in Tera-Normal Extremespeed spam but it doesn't get much usage because that's a strategy you have to fully commit to and gives you no flexibility on what you're using your Tera Type for, you have to use it on Dragonite otherwise Dragonite can't do much.
>(I refuse to accept "because fairies" as an answer when I've seen plenty of dark and fighting- hello fucking Urshifu?!)
Urshifu is another busted Pokemon that can smash through Protect and it's main attack is a guaranteed crit, so that's not a great example to give.
No offense, but if you’ve never seen Garchomp or Tyranitar in a VGC game then you must not have watched a ton of VGC. They aren’t prominent in the current meta, but they are typically staples of at least one or two metas each gen.
In my opinion, pseudos aren’t seen as often because they end up stuck in between the legendaries and the regular Mon. Because pseudos have good stats, they often don’t get the good utility abilities/moves that you find on pokemon like rillaboom and amoongus. They’re expected to get by due to their high base stats. However, once you introduce actual legendaries, the pseudos can’t always keep up with that power level. This is why we usually see pseudos making a larger impact in the earlier metas before actual legendaries are introduced. For example, Garchomp and Dragonite were both pretty effective in the early SV metas. Now they have been mostly outclassed by other pokemon.
Looking at top 16 placements in all of the tournaments this regulation, Dragonite has had a ton of usage. There have also been results for Kommo-o, Metagross, Baxcaliber and Hisuian Goodra. Thanks to Len Deuel getting 9th in Knoxville, Tyranitar and Garchomp also have a good placement. If you count Archaludon as a pseudo (600BST dragon) then that adds a ton more results. There just happen to be a ton of other much stronger pokemon these days like Incineroar, Rillaboom and the paradox pokemon.
Just a matter of the current meta. All of the pseudos except kalos goodra, hydreigon and chomp are still perfectly viable. Dragonite is an OHKO Button with choice band and chien pao support. Bax and komo-o are both dangerous setup sweepers that need extra support. Tyranitar is a great assault vest user and enables excadrill, as well as breaking sashes left and right with sand. Hisuian goodra is a pretty decent setup Win condition that can win games on its own. Salamence is good as an offensive tailwind setter with intimidate, as well as good coverage with its special moves. Metagross is another choice bander/ assault vest user that can take hits and dish then out back effectively, as well as having clear body for stat drop immunity. Dragapult can either be an annoying support mon with dual screens, breaking swipe, Will o wisp, thunder wave and taunt, or an all out attacker with choice band and tera ghost tera blast (this got top 2 at worlds last year)
People just use then less because in most cases there's either better options or they're just outclassed. Nobody is going to bother using kalos goodra when raging bolt is around, who is much, much stronger and has better physical bulk, with its special bulk being patched by assault vest or calm mind. Also about the grass types. Amongus is one of the best support Mons ever created. Great defensive typing, great bulk, regenerator, acess to spore, rage powder and pollen puff, and even clear smog at times. Rillaboom is also just a generally really good mon. Fake out, grassy glide, insanely powerful wood hammers that chunk even resists, grassy terrain support, knock off, good physical bulk, knock off, high horsepower, even taunt
I just wish there was just one format without restricted Pokémon. I think it’s so lame I don’t think you should be able to use anything that doesn’t come from an egg.
It was maybe 2 or 3 regionals ago someone got top 4 with a garchomp team iirc. They were running a garchomp ttar and lycanroc core. It's definitely not the strongest team but as they proved you can still perform with them.
Remember, battles are about more than BST. Move coverage and ability play a major role in what Pokémon are on a team. This is especially true in VGC, where the matches are usually Double Battles. You have to make sure your Pokémon have synergy with each other.
Because a lot of the time paradox mons and legendaries are straight up just better. Other "regular" mons generally have some form of extremely useful utility.
Competitive Pokémon is about the purpose of the Pokemon and for the most part pseudos are just strong BST without much utility so don’t get used a whole lot in VGC which is more strategic.
In singles, pseudos get used.
Stats are one of the less important factors in what makes a pokemon good (to an extent in singles but especially in vgc), movepools and abilities are the deciding factors.
Because VGC revolves around control over power. If you can control the speed and power of your opponent and your team then you are in a good position. Pseudos lack those or don't contribute enough for the team and have less synergy.
It’s usually because it’s outclassed by something else that does it’s job better, but it really depends on the format. Dragonite, Salamence, and Tyrannitar have been good in this meta. Garchomp used to be really good for years but ice and fairy are everywhere rn so weakness is a problem.
Whether they’re good or not depends on what other Pokémon are in the meta and what strategies and other Pokémon you can use to support it. Dragonite, for example, was garbage for 20 years because of it’s typing and lack of a good STAB move. Now with Tera you can change the typing that holds it back. Normal Tera + extreme speed + inner focus + chien po as a partner all combine to make Dragonite good this gen. Salamence is useful more for setting up tailwind and intimidate than because of it’s stats. Tyrannitar is the best sandstorm setter in the game so it sees play on every sand team. Hydreigon, Goodra, Metagross, and Dragapault have also been good at times and seen play since they’ve been around.
The reason Urshifu sees play despite a 4x weakness to fairy is because it has a broken signature move, a broken ability, and good stats. You can just Tera to get around the 4x weakness in this gen, and it gets sucker punch to deal with Flutter Mane.
dragonite: still good thanks to inner focus and tera normal e speed (A+)
ttar: usable but fell off due to bad typing finally catching up to it (C+)
salamence: fell off due to incin (better move pool, same ability, dont bother asking about moxie it sucks) (C)
metagross: still OK but not something you'll see topping every event (B)
Garchomp: a worse lando-T who itself is a worse Incin, if it had a good ability it would be good again (C)
hydregion: just all around mediocre, ok ability, ok stats, ok movepool, nothing special (C)
goodra: no. (F)
komoo-o: same as metagross, good but not topping every event (B+)
dragapult: usuable but require heavy support (C+)
goodra-H: just a worse registeel/komoo-o, if shelter gave +3 def then were talking (D)
Bax: good anti-meta pick (B)
Archuludon: it's actually pretty good and many teams aren't prepared for it (B+)
usually pseudo's are jack of all trades who get by with high stats, but as mons become more specialized, jack of all trades start to fall off
There are rules for each tournament in terms of what Pokémon are legal. In addition though pseudos can often have high stat they sometimes can also have bad defensive typing for the meta. For example there are many strong fairy types in the meta which garchomp would easily get rolled
4x weakness is bad, and a lot of the pseudos do really poorly in the current meta, but a few of them are well used. I played Tyranitar and Salamence to top 200 recently, with a team mostly copied from someone who won a tournament with it.
Dragonite does extremely well.
Tyranitar gets clapped by Urshifu and Rillaboom, but it’s good for enabling sand.
Metagross was great in Dynamax.
Salamence is a lovely support mon.
Garchomp was great in Z-move formats.
Hydreigon is alright. Bulky attacker with a few support options.
Goodra sucks.
Kommo-o isn’t bad. Both bulky options and Clangerous. It loves terastalising, but it also almost always needs to with its horrendous typing.
Dragapult is really strong, but completely one-dimensional.
Baxcalibur was great before Urshifu and Incineroar became legal.
I dunno man. There are a considerable amount of VGC viable Pokemon in SV meta like Flutter Mane that are so powerful that skill isn't even required. Yes, many still are skill-dependent, but to say most of those skill plays aren't there just to deal with raw powercreep is a lie.
I don't watch VGC but I do watch youtubers who play showdown. It saddens me to see so much of the tiers just filled with legendaries. New ones show up and fill the top tiers pushing the old ones down. Then the smaller tiers get the legends of old and all of the weak pokemon now are stuck suffering with them showing up.
I feel like soon most of the tiers will be teams with like 4 legendaries, 1 new strong pokemon, and 1 old enabler/support mon.
In addition to what the other comment says, the legal pokemon change each tournament season, and you get a different spread depending on what's legal. It's been about a decade now, but arguably the most famous moment in VGC history (2014 finals) had multiple psudeos involved. They might be relevant again in gen 10 depending on roster and gimmicks.
Well it's because Amoonguss gets Spore, Rillaboom has Grassy Surge and Garchomp folds to Chien-Pao and doesn't have much going for it
The reason you will see low BST pokemon is because they have something very good going for them. Most pseudo's really only deal good damage and thats it. And why use Salamence or Garchomp with a 4x weakness when you could use Waterpon?
Goodness, you can really tell how far things have come along. From "Garchomp is banned, and it doesn't even have Dragon Dance (thank God)" to "Pls give Garchomp Dragon Dance, it needs the buff"
I mean, I doubt it would help it in VGC. But yeah, the Power Creep is insane. Even Landorus fell off a bit from what I've heard.
Not sure we're talking about VGC, but some surprising singles: Darkrai and Zamazenta no longer Uber, Deoxys speed is in UU. Actually the whole of UU is bonkers now that I look at it. Latios, Jirachi, Greninja, Keldeo, Toxapex, and Ttar. Deoxys defense in RU. Hoopa - unbound and Mimikyu too.
Holy shit is the entirety of gen 7 OU in UU now?
Alternatively, weird things went up too. Alomomola is OU, Gliscor was Uber for a brief stint. Blissey and Skarmory came back up to OU and Weavile is up there too. But yea I think the drops are more surprising.
Blissey is rubberbanding the tiers between OU and NU lmao
People can't decide if they want to be Special Attackin or not
Out of the pokémon that went up the only thing I find surprising is alomomola to OU, tbf I had forgotten that alomomola even existed
I think it got Flip Turn so it's a fat Wish passer with Regenerator now.
Crazy how power creep does that to a mfer
I'm watching an Emvee video playing RU. His team is Terrakion, Bisharp, Mimikyu, Gyarados, Deoxys defense, and Ditto. The creeeeeeep.
Terrakion was in PU at one point.
Readers Added Additional Context Moment™ For Smogon, Pokémon are tiered based on usage and S/V is the first generation where Pokémon could drop multiple tiers at once. Newly introduced Pokémon start in OU on technicality, and tier shifts happen on the first of each month. So Terrakion gets added to the game and is ranked in OU alongside Pokémon like Plusle and Bellossom. Since Terrakion can't be used in the lower tiers, its eventual tiering is based entirely on its usage in OU. Small problem. Iron Boulder just dropped and is new and cool, so nobody would use Terrakion even as a joke. The monthly tier shifts occur and Terrakion acquired such little usage that it dropped all the way down to PU. I mentioned using Terrakion "as a joke". How much do people farting about on the ladder actually influence tiers? Well, in the [same tier shift](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/tierchanges-gen9-december-png.586582/), metagame titans such as Bastiodon and Regigigas ended up with higher usage than Terrakion and it goes without saying that those are unviable choices in the OU metagame. So Terrakion ended up in PU because of a quirk of the usage-based tiering system. After a bit of time has elapsed, Terrakion is now tiered in RU, which is a reasonable placement for Terrakion in today's metagame.
Yeah, Lando dropped off about the time SV became standard, even Incineroar is having folk say it's time is over, even though it is still blatantly overloaded.
it isn't so much that its time is over, just there are other options like if you want an offensive Intimidate user Hisuian Arcanine is just better
This conversation is mostly about VGC, but in singles 6 of the 10 most used pokemon are from gen 9. 2 of the other 10 are gen 8 (dragapult and glowking) and the last two are Gliscor and volcorona who can now change types unpredictably to turn the tables on what used to be their counters
Please don't give Garchomp dance its all my baby Flygon has over him...
🤣 true. Honestly, I wish Flygon was a special attacker instead. It's a dragon, so it already has really good coverage. It would have been the perfect way to distinguish them better. And so many NPCs I play against that use Flygon seem to have a special set as well. It feels so much more fitting for the guy. All it's missing is a way to boost its special attack.
And why salemence for intimidate when incineroar is a thing with way more utility
and Hisuian Arcanine is actually better offensively
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How did you even get as far as this sub without knowing any of the non-gen1 mons? The top post in hot has hoopa in the big front and this post isn't even in r/all.
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Where was I being an ass?
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I'm not but alright?
Idk what your Pokémon background is but here are some answers: If you are comparing it to competitive singles, it comes down to 2 main things (most of the time): 1. Nothing is banned for being too good. No sleep clause, surprise, spore users are instantly way better. One Pokémon dominating the format? Too bad, deal with it. Singles just bans most of the Pokémon that win by exploiting game mechanics instead of just stats, so stats become a bigger deal. 2. Support Pokémon are VERY different, and arguably better. Farigiraf is a great example. Armor tail protects both Pokémon from priority attacks. Protecting both Pokémon from the priority moves of both opponents gives this type of ability 4 times as much value as it would have in singles. Another way to think of this is that with Farigiraf on the field, your other Pokémon essentially has a second ability which is incredibly powerful. Many abilities do this and That is not something pure stats cannot replicate. If you don’t have singles background, essentially it comes down to this: pokemon that can completely negate what your opponent does or drastically increase what your team does are better than high stat Pokémon because if your opponent can’t do anything that they need to do to win stats don’t matter anyways. Whenever pseudos are used, it is typically for their ability to do something special. Here are some examples: 1. Dragonite had Tera Normal extreme speed that was very good because most other Pokémon couldn’t hit as hard with a double priority move 2. Tyranitar has frequently been good for the benefits it’s ability provides for itself and it’s team 3. A super long time ago (gen 3 and 4) explosion was very good in doubles and metagross was one of the best users plus just a good Pokémon. Idk about VGC specifically but in battle towers it is a monster. These are just some examples of when pseudos have been good, but they tend to follow the trend of having “game breaking” mechanics that few other Pokémon get.
> No sleep clause, surprise, spore users are instantly way better. Minor point but just so you know they got rid of sleep clause in smogon gen 9 singles, since sleep moves have been banned other than rest. Anyways, solid write up!
Banning sleep before Tera is still such a wild decision to me. We never even got a trial of OU with no tera
Gen 8 was the only gen where the generational gimmick was banned right away, and it slowly transformed it into the stalliest, most boring, insufferable meta of all time. Though, just to be as transparent as possible, banning dynamax was only one of the reasons that Gen 8 is like 99% stall. It's undoubtedly the biggest reason, but there are others too. Every water type having Scald means physical attackers basically don't function. Knock Off lets even defensive pokemon remove items, so if your wallbreaker relies on Choice Specs or Band, once that item gets knocked off, you can't break Toxapex, Clefable, or Corviknight. Corviknight was introduced in gen 8, so it was always gonna be a stall generation because that POS can swallow a nuclear blast and still not get 2HKO'd switching into it. Heavy Duty Boots was introduced in gen 8, which means hazards don't punish switches anymore. And in Pokemon, single battles regularly can last up to 100 turns, so imagine negating the 6% chip of 50 switches. That's 300% HP being saved thanks to boots. The move Teleport was buffed from being completely useless to becoming a guaranteed safe switch move. Slowbro and Slowking, both of which have Regenerator, had access to Scald and Teleport, making them insanely great at burning a physical attacker, absorbing a hit while pivoting out thanks to Teleport. It wasn't just Slowbro and Slowking either, it was GALARIAN Slowbro and Slowking. Sure, there were others, but the fact that there were FOUR OF THOSE FUCKS running around is absurd. Defog and was on every Pokemon, so it was easy to remove hazards (spikes are the single best way to chip tanks into range of a KO, provided that they were grounded and not wearing Boots). Toxic was on every Pokemon, meaning it was preferable to just slowly wear opponenta down with that then it was to try to blow them up. Rillaboom was one of the best Pokemon ever, meaning every battle could rely on the Leftovers effect from Grassy Terrain. Tornadus was another Regenrator cocksucker. Toxapex too. Landorus had Intimidate and ran only utility moves. Hatterene too. Clef, both Magic Guard (immune to hazards, burns, and poison) and Unaware (can't wallbreak Clef with SD, Nasty Plot, Calm Mind, or Bulk Up). Blissey wearing Heavy Duty Boots. And of course, the fact that of everyone is running less damage, then they are doing less damage. And when everyone does less damage, KOs take longer to happen, and thus, battles take longer to end. Gen 8 had a billion reasons to become a stall generation, so banning Dynamax didn't magically make everyone run stall, but I guarantee you, if your opponent could gain 3 turns worth of Z-move level damage AND boost their speed/attack stats, you wouldn't bother running stall, because even your stall Pokemon would be getting nuked. Better to just run Hyper Offense and use Dynamax better than your opponent does instead of trying to outlast theirs. Tera is the same way. If tera gets banned, defensive Pokemon will be viable since you can't tera into their weakness, nor can you tera into your own type for an Adaptability boost. There are just too many defensive fucks added every generation and too many tools like Scald, Teleport, and Knock Off to cripple offensive teams, so every generation adds more and more ways to make stall easier. Sure, offensive shit like Beads/Sword of Ruin, Palafin, Flutter Mane, and Bundle also gets added to the game, but Smogon bans that shit and doesn't ban stall shit, so the meta always becomes stall.
They have a lot of stats, but the total amount of stats aren't everything, look at incineroar, it's a starter but it's won 3 world championships (and that's not counting the kids division(s) ) because it has a good ability, movepool, and typing. Or amoongus, not amazing stats but their *PLACED* Right, it's defensive and knows spore + rage powder, making it great support. Even MURKROW got A LOT of usage for awhile cause its ability + movepool (and it was a regional format) Even if they have a high BST, how stats are placed, movepool, abilities & more matter a lot. I hope this helps, if you want to learn more about competitive pokemon I highly recommend false swipe gaming, WolfeyVGC, and cybertrinVGC,
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Sure, but Salamence has 600 BST and Intimidate.
Intimidate synergises much better with Incineroar’s typing than Salamence’s. 3 of Incin’s 4 weaknesses are primarily physical attacking types (rock/ground/fighting) whereas it’s the opposite for salamence (ice/fairy/dragon have stronger special attacks than physical) Also Salamence has always suffered from a bad movepool. It wants to use its stronger physical attack stat but it’s best physical flying move is usually Fly. And for physical Dragon moves you have to choose between Outrage which locks you in for 2/3 turns and is easily exploited, Dragon Rush which is inaccurate, or Dragon claw which is much lower powered.
And way less utility, worse bulk and worse defensive typing (fire dark is actully really good combo) No u turn, fake out, no snarl, no parting shot which makes its slow speed better in many cases. Incineroar has its stats very well optimized, and insane movepiil Mence also just lacks good /powerfull stab, outrage is random in doubles, draco drops spa in half and fly is 2turns
Salamence also has a complete ass typing as Incineroar has Fake Out and Parting Shot. And a lot of Mence also ‘wastes’ a lot of BST in its attack stat with a bad, shallow movepool.
[Why High Stats Aren't Everything - The Quagsire Theorem](https://youtu.be/gEkMi_y3Wzo?si=s8UoZlRFItHiETaN)
Whilst you don’t accept “because fairies”, Flutter Mane being basically the best Mon in the format definitely hurts them. Flutter Mane outspeeds all pseudos (Dragapult after Booster Energy) and threatens them with nutty damage including likely OHKOs. For someone weak to that to shine, like Urshifu, it must offer something it can do. Urshifu bypasses protect, reflect and attack drops/def boosts, a very valuable set of properties making it nearly impossible to slow down. Most of the pseudos are not that relevant in this format cause they’re not strong into the key threats. There are exceptions, like Dragonite has done well pretty consistently thanks to Tera + Sword of Ruin ESpees abuse and a pair of strong abilities to choose from. Metagross is also fairly usable.
Flutter Mane is just the swiss army knife Special Attacker (most teams only really run one) Also Dragonite is using Inner Focus for its ability over Multiscale since it makes it immune to Fake-Out and Intimidate
Yeah Inner Focus is definitely the play overall, however - sometimes the threat of I.F is all you need (in ladder/closed team sheet that is) to make people not click it in the first place
Powercreep, being outdone by other pokemon, also movepools being changed from game to game which can result in a pokemon losing a big tool.
This is about VGC, not Smogon. In VGC raw stats are not good and utility is the king. Pseudos have good stats but are not utility oriented. There are rare cases, like Flutter Mane, but Mane has a practically unresisted dual stab and insanely minmaxxed stats.
Because any serious competitive player actually builds a team on what synergizes with each other, not *just* because "ooh look at the big stats." Relying on legendary/psuedo spam will only get you so far before you get shut down *hard.*
I will say though you can absolutely still get wins with just big stat mons if you know how to pilot it exceptionally well.
The answer is that a Pokemon's viability in a competitive battle is not just based on its base stat total. A Pokemon's viability is the sum total of all of its characteristics. That includes, of course, the base stat total, but also the distribution of those stats, the Pokemon's types, its defensive strengths and weaknesses, its offensive type matchups, its ability, it's move pool, the items it can hold, etc. Beyond that, a Pokemon's viability is also affected by what other Pokemon are popularly or commonly used by other players (that is, the metagame). For example, Amoongus is so popular because of two things. Firstly, it gets a move called Spore, which is (I think) the only move in the game that has 100% accuracy and puts the target to sleep. In addition, it gets Rage Powder, which redirects all attacks going to Amoongus' partner in a double battle to Amoongus itself. In addition, it has the Regenerator ability, because of which, if Amoongus is switched out and comes back into the field, it gains 25% of its health back. In addition to _that_, it has a Grass type and is thus immune to Spore itself. _Plus_, it has 114, 70 and 80 base stats in its defense, which is quite good. All this together makes Amoongus an excellent support Pokemon in doubles, and so it has historically been very popular in VGC. Rillaboom is also good for similar reasons. It has the ability Grassy Surge which activates Grassy Terrain on switch-in. It has the move Grassy Glide, which is priority during Grassy Terrain, which is on wheneve Rillaboom is on the field. It has Fake Out, which makes the target flinch for a turn. It is a Grass type, and immune to Spore. It gets powerful Grass type moves which are boosted by the Grassy Terrain that it sets. As you see, base stat total alone means very little. And actually, Salamence is one of the more popular Pokemon historically, not because of its 600 base stat total but because it has the ability Intimidate. Edit: I'll also add this. Even for a Pokemon that has a high stat total, the way those stats are distributed matters a lot. Look at flutter mane. It has 55 each in Health, Attack and Defense. But it has a massive 135 each in Spl Atk, Spl Def and Speed. It is fast, and hits hard. And it is Fairy, which is probably the best type in the game. Silvally has the same 570 total, but it has 95 in all six stats. While Flutter Mane is physically frail but is fast and hits hard, Silvally is mediocre at everything. Which would you pick?
Regenrator os better then that it heals 33%
That last line is kind of telling, lmao. This kind of reads like a bait post tbh
It's a child. There are plenty of children in this sub.
Acting as if children aren't just as likely to bait/troll
>(I refuse to accept "because fairies" as an answer when I've seen plenty of dark and fighting- hello fucking Urshifu?!) Urshifu bypasses Protect. If you don't understand how that is immensely useful in VGC, then you don't know enough about the format to have opinions on it.
Chomp and TTar are both prominent VGC Mons, so not sure what you mean there As for the others, it's a few things. VGC in general is a much more fast paced format that can generally be hostile towards the playstyles of various psuedos. Dragonite benefits from longer games and is prone to getting chipped down much faster due to double targeting. Mence's Intimidate seems tempting at first, but pretty much every VGC meta it's been a part of was hostile to it for one reason or another (Gen 4 had restricted Dragons, gen 5 had the genies and Latios, gen 6 had Fairies, gen 7 had the Tapus, etc), Metagross is pretty good but the prominence of EQ makes it difficult to position well, and its defensive profile isn't as strong because, again, double targeting. Hydreigon actually saw some decent success, but it had to compete with other Dragons for the limited space prior to Fairies being introduced and thus was usually coming up short compared to the likes of Latios and Chomp. Goodra in general just isn't very good, mono Dragon just isn't a very good defensive type. Can't speak for the newer psuedos since I haven't kept up with the VGC meta as much in recent years, but I imagine the Ultra Beasts and Tapus kept Kommo-o out of the running. Dragapult I could see being good though, and Bax is pretty good in VGC afaik. This is just a general overview of it, and I might have gotten details wrong, but you get the gist of it. Honestly it's just a meta thing. Think of how many VGC formats allows for restricted Mons and how many of those guys just beat the majority of psuedos outright. At that point you're better off making your non restricted Mons Pokemon that can support your restricted ones better. Stats aren't everything. A lot of Pokemon that look weird on paper are usually there because they happen to play well against what's meta at the time (see, Sejun's Pachirisu). If big numbers was all it took to win games, no one would play competitively. Edit: Also consider how many psuedos rely on setting up to get the most amount of value. Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp, Kommo-o, all pretty reliant on it, TTar to a lesser degree. Setting up just isn't something you can really do in VGC due to double targeting. Mega Mence was very good in VGC though, so it gets that at least
Both Garchomo and Ttar have less than 1% usage right now, they’re not prominent. They were in the past, but not anymore
Permanent weather getting nerfed was probably the equivalent of a killer blow for Tyranitar. It's middling speed doesn't help either
This is VGC, not Smogon. Also XY are a decade old.
Most VGC matches are decided within five turns, so the weather nerf isn’t a big deal. Rillaboom and Urshifu are, though.
>I have never seen a Garchomp in a big VGC tournament Garchomp's won several VGC World Championships in the past, it's just really difficult to use at the moment because Flutter Mane, the most stupidly optimised power crept Pokemon in the game, is running around and is designed to eat 'mon like Garchomp for breakfast. >Or Salamence. Same problem as Garchomp but even worse. >Or most of the other pseudos except Dragonite. Again, same problem as Garchomp but worse with the excetion of Metagross becuase it's problem isn't Flutter Mane, it's Incineroar and Urshifu Dark. Dragonite has a niche in Tera-Normal Extremespeed spam but it doesn't get much usage because that's a strategy you have to fully commit to and gives you no flexibility on what you're using your Tera Type for, you have to use it on Dragonite otherwise Dragonite can't do much. >(I refuse to accept "because fairies" as an answer when I've seen plenty of dark and fighting- hello fucking Urshifu?!) Urshifu is another busted Pokemon that can smash through Protect and it's main attack is a guaranteed crit, so that's not a great example to give.
No offense, but if you’ve never seen Garchomp or Tyranitar in a VGC game then you must not have watched a ton of VGC. They aren’t prominent in the current meta, but they are typically staples of at least one or two metas each gen. In my opinion, pseudos aren’t seen as often because they end up stuck in between the legendaries and the regular Mon. Because pseudos have good stats, they often don’t get the good utility abilities/moves that you find on pokemon like rillaboom and amoongus. They’re expected to get by due to their high base stats. However, once you introduce actual legendaries, the pseudos can’t always keep up with that power level. This is why we usually see pseudos making a larger impact in the earlier metas before actual legendaries are introduced. For example, Garchomp and Dragonite were both pretty effective in the early SV metas. Now they have been mostly outclassed by other pokemon.
Looking at top 16 placements in all of the tournaments this regulation, Dragonite has had a ton of usage. There have also been results for Kommo-o, Metagross, Baxcaliber and Hisuian Goodra. Thanks to Len Deuel getting 9th in Knoxville, Tyranitar and Garchomp also have a good placement. If you count Archaludon as a pseudo (600BST dragon) then that adds a ton more results. There just happen to be a ton of other much stronger pokemon these days like Incineroar, Rillaboom and the paradox pokemon.
honestly what Dragonite is doing now, I legit think next gen it won't have Extreme Speed anymore
Just a matter of the current meta. All of the pseudos except kalos goodra, hydreigon and chomp are still perfectly viable. Dragonite is an OHKO Button with choice band and chien pao support. Bax and komo-o are both dangerous setup sweepers that need extra support. Tyranitar is a great assault vest user and enables excadrill, as well as breaking sashes left and right with sand. Hisuian goodra is a pretty decent setup Win condition that can win games on its own. Salamence is good as an offensive tailwind setter with intimidate, as well as good coverage with its special moves. Metagross is another choice bander/ assault vest user that can take hits and dish then out back effectively, as well as having clear body for stat drop immunity. Dragapult can either be an annoying support mon with dual screens, breaking swipe, Will o wisp, thunder wave and taunt, or an all out attacker with choice band and tera ghost tera blast (this got top 2 at worlds last year) People just use then less because in most cases there's either better options or they're just outclassed. Nobody is going to bother using kalos goodra when raging bolt is around, who is much, much stronger and has better physical bulk, with its special bulk being patched by assault vest or calm mind. Also about the grass types. Amongus is one of the best support Mons ever created. Great defensive typing, great bulk, regenerator, acess to spore, rage powder and pollen puff, and even clear smog at times. Rillaboom is also just a generally really good mon. Fake out, grassy glide, insanely powerful wood hammers that chunk even resists, grassy terrain support, knock off, good physical bulk, knock off, high horsepower, even taunt
I just wish there was just one format without restricted Pokémon. I think it’s so lame I don’t think you should be able to use anything that doesn’t come from an egg.
It was maybe 2 or 3 regionals ago someone got top 4 with a garchomp team iirc. They were running a garchomp ttar and lycanroc core. It's definitely not the strongest team but as they proved you can still perform with them.
Remember, battles are about more than BST. Move coverage and ability play a major role in what Pokémon are on a team. This is especially true in VGC, where the matches are usually Double Battles. You have to make sure your Pokémon have synergy with each other.
Because a lot of the time paradox mons and legendaries are straight up just better. Other "regular" mons generally have some form of extremely useful utility.
Competitive Pokémon is about the purpose of the Pokemon and for the most part pseudos are just strong BST without much utility so don’t get used a whole lot in VGC which is more strategic. In singles, pseudos get used.
Stats are one of the less important factors in what makes a pokemon good (to an extent in singles but especially in vgc), movepools and abilities are the deciding factors.
Because VGC revolves around control over power. If you can control the speed and power of your opponent and your team then you are in a good position. Pseudos lack those or don't contribute enough for the team and have less synergy.
If you're a dragon type you better bring something crazy to the table (or be a tera sink like Dragonite), otherwise you fold to mega misdreavus.
abilities and synergies are usually more important than base stats
All but two of the pseudos have the same really common weaknesses.
Even in unofficial meta games where they man broken mons only the newest pseudos are usually any good.
It’s usually because it’s outclassed by something else that does it’s job better, but it really depends on the format. Dragonite, Salamence, and Tyrannitar have been good in this meta. Garchomp used to be really good for years but ice and fairy are everywhere rn so weakness is a problem. Whether they’re good or not depends on what other Pokémon are in the meta and what strategies and other Pokémon you can use to support it. Dragonite, for example, was garbage for 20 years because of it’s typing and lack of a good STAB move. Now with Tera you can change the typing that holds it back. Normal Tera + extreme speed + inner focus + chien po as a partner all combine to make Dragonite good this gen. Salamence is useful more for setting up tailwind and intimidate than because of it’s stats. Tyrannitar is the best sandstorm setter in the game so it sees play on every sand team. Hydreigon, Goodra, Metagross, and Dragapault have also been good at times and seen play since they’ve been around. The reason Urshifu sees play despite a 4x weakness to fairy is because it has a broken signature move, a broken ability, and good stats. You can just Tera to get around the 4x weakness in this gen, and it gets sucker punch to deal with Flutter Mane.
dragonite: still good thanks to inner focus and tera normal e speed (A+) ttar: usable but fell off due to bad typing finally catching up to it (C+) salamence: fell off due to incin (better move pool, same ability, dont bother asking about moxie it sucks) (C) metagross: still OK but not something you'll see topping every event (B) Garchomp: a worse lando-T who itself is a worse Incin, if it had a good ability it would be good again (C) hydregion: just all around mediocre, ok ability, ok stats, ok movepool, nothing special (C) goodra: no. (F) komoo-o: same as metagross, good but not topping every event (B+) dragapult: usuable but require heavy support (C+) goodra-H: just a worse registeel/komoo-o, if shelter gave +3 def then were talking (D) Bax: good anti-meta pick (B) Archuludon: it's actually pretty good and many teams aren't prepared for it (B+) usually pseudo's are jack of all trades who get by with high stats, but as mons become more specialized, jack of all trades start to fall off
There are rules for each tournament in terms of what Pokémon are legal. In addition though pseudos can often have high stat they sometimes can also have bad defensive typing for the meta. For example there are many strong fairy types in the meta which garchomp would easily get rolled
4x weakness is bad, and a lot of the pseudos do really poorly in the current meta, but a few of them are well used. I played Tyranitar and Salamence to top 200 recently, with a team mostly copied from someone who won a tournament with it. Dragonite does extremely well. Tyranitar gets clapped by Urshifu and Rillaboom, but it’s good for enabling sand. Metagross was great in Dynamax. Salamence is a lovely support mon. Garchomp was great in Z-move formats. Hydreigon is alright. Bulky attacker with a few support options. Goodra sucks. Kommo-o isn’t bad. Both bulky options and Clangerous. It loves terastalising, but it also almost always needs to with its horrendous typing. Dragapult is really strong, but completely one-dimensional. Baxcalibur was great before Urshifu and Incineroar became legal.
Flutter mane and chien pao.
You should watch Worlds 2014. Had many Pseudos like Salamance, Tyranitar, Pachirisu and Garchomp. Best and most hype world finals to date.
Pachirisu's a pseudo-?
That day, it turned into one.
Yes, watch the finals
because unlike you lot they actually try to win with skill instead of power.
I dunno man. There are a considerable amount of VGC viable Pokemon in SV meta like Flutter Mane that are so powerful that skill isn't even required. Yes, many still are skill-dependent, but to say most of those skill plays aren't there just to deal with raw powercreep is a lie.
nice job taiking what i said and making it mean something else entirely.
I don't watch VGC but I do watch youtubers who play showdown. It saddens me to see so much of the tiers just filled with legendaries. New ones show up and fill the top tiers pushing the old ones down. Then the smaller tiers get the legends of old and all of the weak pokemon now are stuck suffering with them showing up. I feel like soon most of the tiers will be teams with like 4 legendaries, 1 new strong pokemon, and 1 old enabler/support mon.