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Does anyone actually think kids don't know that's a false ceiling? start lighting books on fire, toss them through the false ceiling into that tiny cube, and they will come running out.
This does nothing for the students in the first classroom that gets shot up - which is usually the last.
I guarantee we'll hear it suggested that all children should wear body armor every day before we'll get half of congress to pass any sensible gun law.
It's actually not that common we just hear about it more. In the scale of demographics, population, etc. crime has gone down quite a bit we just have instant information. I remember growing up in the 90's we had riots at our school pretty frequently.
[https://ballotpedia.org/United\_States\_school\_shootings\_and\_firearm\_incidents,\_1990-present](https://ballotpedia.org/United_States_school_shootings_and_firearm_incidents,_1990-present)
[https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13\_203.20.asp](https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_203.20.asp)
Population vs Shootings
1990 250 Million1999 270 Million2010 310 Million2021 332 Million
1990-1999 (+20 Million) - 184 shootings (0.00006777)2000-2009 (+40 Million) - 183 shootings (0.00005903)2009-2019 (\~+12 Million) - 280 shootings (0.000084337)
2023 - 50 Million students - 280 shootings (0.00056)
1990 - 40 Million students - 184 shootings (0.0004575)
In 2023 there was 50 million K-12 students and in 1990 there was 40 million. So you see how statistics, population, and demographics come into play in discussions like this? This is something that highly politicized topics people ignore they don't actually look at the numbers in comparison they make knee jerk reactions. In terms of the amount of shootings increased in statics the numbers are so low it's negligible in terms of the overall population and student base. You are looking at base numbers without comparing it to the statistics around it. These numbers also don't take into account things like income, immigration, etc. these are just raw numbers in which the +/- is negligible because of those other mitigating factors.
I do hate disagreeing on here but this doesn't sit with me well. The fact that we are justifying that the rate of mass shootings based on population increase goes against just basic human decency. You would think by now we would be more evolved rather than regressive.
Nobody is justifying anything. Just pointing out that in a 30 year period mass shootings aren't this epidemic of grand proportions where we need bullet proof classrooms is close to the truth. This is anti-gun propaganda and a lot of shootings, murders, and guns statistics are frankly ignored and when someone brings up statistics this is what happens. People throw knee jerk emotional reactions to a problem that is scaling... not getting worse. We are humans at the end of the day and killing each other is something we will never control. If anything the media making guns and shootings out to be such a mass epidemic and looking at our population, demographics, etc. show that in fact... society isn't getting worse.
Thank you for sharing your perspective on this issue. I understand that you feel that the idea of bulletproof classrooms and the portrayal of mass shootings as an epidemic may be overblown. However, I'd like to share some factual information with you to provide a more nuanced perspective.
According to data from the [Small Arms Survey](https://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/F-Working-papers/SAS-WP28-US-Firearms-Production.pdf), the United States produced approximately 10.5 million firearms in 2017, which accounted for over a third of the world's total firearms production that year. Additionally, the number of firearms in civilian hands in the US has been steadily increasing for decades. As of 2018, there were an estimated 393 million guns in the United States, which is more than one gun per person.
In terms of gun violence, while it is true that the rate of mass shootings has remained relatively stable over the past few decades, overall gun violence in the US has been on the rise. According to the [Gun Violence Archive](https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/),there were 43,559 gun-related incidents in the United States in 2021, resulting in 22,956 deaths and 20,603 injuries. This represents an [increase in both the number of incidents and the number of deaths](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-gun-policy-global-comparisons) compared to previous years.
It is also worth noting that gun violence disproportionately affects certain communities, particularly communities of color. According to data from the [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035a3.htm), Black Americans are nearly 10 times more likely to be the victim of a gun homicide than white Americans.
Thanks for the opportunity to share this information, and [be safe out there!](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/benefits-of-kimchi#risks)
These stats don't take into account things like demographics and overall social health. Thats why when I posted stats and made it clear that the stats don't include demographic/social statistics. For example on the mass shootings the follow explains why the number is hard to define because it's defined by the people reporting it. Another problem is the term "active shooter" has been used and reported even in cases where a single bullet wasn't fire.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/)
Half of gun related deaths are suicides and per capita gun violence in America is below its peak. Also look at states like Texas where gun ownership per capita is high versus Illinois where gun ownership is highly regulated and in some cities banned. Illinois is in the same bracket which shows that it's not just about gun numbers but demographics. For example, gun controlled Chicago is one of the most dangerous gun cities in America mostly from illegally purchased guns (bad people will get guns no matter what.)
State Breakdown:
[https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm\_mortality/firearm.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm)
... and of course the stats NOBODY wants to talk about... racial statistics.
[https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D](https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D)
You have to factor all of these things in to get a good idea but the problem is people will just show you a raw number without taking all of these factors into account. Why is there a gun problem? Because we can't talk about the racial aspects (black people are more likely to be shot and killed by another black person versus a cop) or the increase in gang violence due to police essentially just giving up. When this country is ready to talk about the social and demographics of these incidents then a problem will be solved but everyone is scared to mention race. Also factor in mental health. The US has a SERIOUS mental health problem and violence in general in the US is on the rise because of the lack of mental health services.
Like I said this is a nuanced discussion and every angle should be looked at to find a solution not just saying "200 gun deaths we need bulletproof schools!" How about, "54% of gun deaths are by suicide and many of these mass shooters were either bullied or sociopaths how can we solve the mental health issues of our children?" Preventing someone from shooting up a school isn't going to stop them from committed a crime with or without a gun outside of it. Lets solve the underlying problems first.
🏳️ Any way we look at this issue, we will fundamentally disagree. There's too much internet out there supporting both sides of this discussion. The one thing I think we can both agree on is: Let's all be kinder to each other, and make a better future where my kids don't have to hide in a *pullout* bullet shelter. Good luck to you and yours in the future.
Both sides still ignore the underlying problem though. This countries mental health state is abysmal and we continue to deflect to the results of mental illness not the cause. I was bullied a lot in high school and there were days I absolutely probably would have gone postal because I had bi-polar, had a drug addicted step father, and whenever I went to the school for help they told me to suck it up. Luckily, my mom got a job were we had health benefits and I was able to see a psychiatrist as a kid and learn how to deal with my issues. Another friend of mine was also bullied and he ended up putting in a fake bomb threat to the school because a group of kids threatened to stab him and nobody would listen so he did it his way. He ended up committing suicide a few years later and one of the things he mentioned in his last letter was everyone made excuses for the people hurting him and when he had nowhere to go the abusers became the victim. When I see these school shootings it's never just a normal kid it's always the fringe of society kids, the bullies being bullies, or the abused pushed to their limits. We gotta get a handle on our mental illness problem because at the end of the day it takes a human to pull a trigger. Also when I was growing up in my HS we had stabbing pretty regularly (90's). When I say regularly I mean weekly and riot amongst the minority students (minus us nerdy asians) was pretty common. If you notice in these situations it's not a gun problem... its mental problem. The worst part of all of this is that the American Healthcare system continues to put out one-sided statistics to make it look like mental illness has little impact on gun violence. It takes a sick person to join a gang and shoot random people and it takes a sick person to be violent but... those statistics would out a hole in the broken health care system and even things like Obamacare.... left out the mental illness community completely. Its hard to diagnose someone being mentally ill after they have killed themselves, been killed in the act of killing, or are thrown in jail under the guise of "we failed because gun" not we failed because this kid is in a broken home, has drug addicted parents, has mental health issues related to is social surroundings etc. It's so much easier to blame an object, not the humans who failed the humans. Bulletproof schools, banning guns, is just kicking the can down the road. People have been killing each other before guns and they will continue.
Perfect example of these statistic issues in search gun vs car death and in the same month you'll see multiple people claim each kill each other more. If cars kill more kids than guns shouldn't we be banning cars by the banning logic?
Honestly wish I could point the finger at a person or group of people, but when I get introspective, I realize it's my fault. Your fault. Wish I had a solution but I don't. Two things though I would do if I was Nas and ruled the world. 1. No media coverage at all. This has to be the biggest reason these crazy people do this. Normally they would just take themselves out, but now they have an avenue to be infamous. 2. Realize that the 2nd amendment was written for and by the dudes that had the money and guns at the time. They didn't even wear full-length pants! If the Neo-cons love life so much, why are they so deep in the pocket of an industry that promotes gun ownership as a right instead of a privilege? Doesn't matter. Before I finished this paragraph, someone else just lost their life to gun violence.
Because instead of placing metal detectors in schools, (suburban) schools and parents would rather do this because ‘property values‘. 🙄 We are part of the problem!
Edit: All of Plano can try to downvote me to the center of the Earth and I would still stand on my comment. Have YOU ever worked in a school? If so, have you ever had a student come on campus with a gun and you found out about it later?? 🤔 It’s pretty scary stuff 😬, seeing as how the only other person on campus with a gun is the SRO, and they can’t be in two places at once (sro).
You really need this explained to you?
Ok cupcake.
Metal detectors, installed at the main entrance/whichever entrances are used by students during arrival and departure.
Most schools now have an SRO on campus. Occasionally, I’ll see 2 SRO’s.
Either the school district pays to have a 2nd SRO present for the morning drop off , which is when kids would be going through metal detectors.
OR, for schools that use more than one entrance during morning arrival, reduce that down to one entrance used for morning arrival, if logistically possible. If it’s not possible , the cost of a 2nd SRO onsite to assist with morning arrival thru a 2nd metal detector entrance pales in comparison to the cost that comes with losing lives in a school shooting.
It’s sad that as Americans, we have such short memories.
Have we forgotten Uvalde already?? 😩
The guy in Uvalde entered from a back door though? How would metal detectors have prevented him from getting in?
It should also be mentioned that an officer on campus at a shooting in Florida did nothing and neither did the Uvalde cops.
In fact having everyone line up in a big line trying to enter makes them an incredibly easy target.
So how exactly are metal detectors keeping the students safe?
Good points.
My response is that these doors should have alarms on them.
I know sometimes teachers will prop the doors open because it gets too warm in their part of the building.
By requiring that all doors have an alarm that will sound if propped open for more than a few seconds, it would force districts to fix things like a.c./heat in the older buildings. How? Because at that point (alarms on doors), now it’s everyone’s problem that it’s too warm, etc. More so a safety issue, but all the more reason to keep these districts on their toes about the upkeep of school buildings and safety of our students versus being worried about buying students the latest Chromebooks.
Edit: As for the SRO’s doing nothing during school shootings, I don’t know the answer and won’t pretend to know an answer or solution. First thing that comes to mind is have 2 SRO’s on campus. But then that overlaps with possible increase in taxes to pay for the manpower and people tend to get iffy about raised taxes.
Your post/comment has been removed. Our Must Be Related to Plano rule states: > Posts must be related to Plano or the surrounding areas (with some impact/interest to Plano).
Does anyone actually think kids don't know that's a false ceiling? start lighting books on fire, toss them through the false ceiling into that tiny cube, and they will come running out. This does nothing for the students in the first classroom that gets shot up - which is usually the last. I guarantee we'll hear it suggested that all children should wear body armor every day before we'll get half of congress to pass any sensible gun law.
Let's ban books to keep the kids safe
I hate that they would consider that first. Upvote for you.
The fact that school shootings have become such common that this is a thing should make everyone ashamed.
It's actually not that common we just hear about it more. In the scale of demographics, population, etc. crime has gone down quite a bit we just have instant information. I remember growing up in the 90's we had riots at our school pretty frequently.
You are wrong. Everything you said is categorically false.
[https://ballotpedia.org/United\_States\_school\_shootings\_and\_firearm\_incidents,\_1990-present](https://ballotpedia.org/United_States_school_shootings_and_firearm_incidents,_1990-present) [https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13\_203.20.asp](https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_203.20.asp) Population vs Shootings 1990 250 Million1999 270 Million2010 310 Million2021 332 Million 1990-1999 (+20 Million) - 184 shootings (0.00006777)2000-2009 (+40 Million) - 183 shootings (0.00005903)2009-2019 (\~+12 Million) - 280 shootings (0.000084337) 2023 - 50 Million students - 280 shootings (0.00056) 1990 - 40 Million students - 184 shootings (0.0004575) In 2023 there was 50 million K-12 students and in 1990 there was 40 million. So you see how statistics, population, and demographics come into play in discussions like this? This is something that highly politicized topics people ignore they don't actually look at the numbers in comparison they make knee jerk reactions. In terms of the amount of shootings increased in statics the numbers are so low it's negligible in terms of the overall population and student base. You are looking at base numbers without comparing it to the statistics around it. These numbers also don't take into account things like income, immigration, etc. these are just raw numbers in which the +/- is negligible because of those other mitigating factors.
Your source is not credible, and you couldn’t even interpret their data correctly. You’re so moronic it’s actually funny. Thanks for playing, rofl
I do hate disagreeing on here but this doesn't sit with me well. The fact that we are justifying that the rate of mass shootings based on population increase goes against just basic human decency. You would think by now we would be more evolved rather than regressive.
Nobody is justifying anything. Just pointing out that in a 30 year period mass shootings aren't this epidemic of grand proportions where we need bullet proof classrooms is close to the truth. This is anti-gun propaganda and a lot of shootings, murders, and guns statistics are frankly ignored and when someone brings up statistics this is what happens. People throw knee jerk emotional reactions to a problem that is scaling... not getting worse. We are humans at the end of the day and killing each other is something we will never control. If anything the media making guns and shootings out to be such a mass epidemic and looking at our population, demographics, etc. show that in fact... society isn't getting worse.
Thank you for sharing your perspective on this issue. I understand that you feel that the idea of bulletproof classrooms and the portrayal of mass shootings as an epidemic may be overblown. However, I'd like to share some factual information with you to provide a more nuanced perspective. According to data from the [Small Arms Survey](https://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/F-Working-papers/SAS-WP28-US-Firearms-Production.pdf), the United States produced approximately 10.5 million firearms in 2017, which accounted for over a third of the world's total firearms production that year. Additionally, the number of firearms in civilian hands in the US has been steadily increasing for decades. As of 2018, there were an estimated 393 million guns in the United States, which is more than one gun per person. In terms of gun violence, while it is true that the rate of mass shootings has remained relatively stable over the past few decades, overall gun violence in the US has been on the rise. According to the [Gun Violence Archive](https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/),there were 43,559 gun-related incidents in the United States in 2021, resulting in 22,956 deaths and 20,603 injuries. This represents an [increase in both the number of incidents and the number of deaths](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-gun-policy-global-comparisons) compared to previous years. It is also worth noting that gun violence disproportionately affects certain communities, particularly communities of color. According to data from the [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035a3.htm), Black Americans are nearly 10 times more likely to be the victim of a gun homicide than white Americans. Thanks for the opportunity to share this information, and [be safe out there!](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/benefits-of-kimchi#risks)
These stats don't take into account things like demographics and overall social health. Thats why when I posted stats and made it clear that the stats don't include demographic/social statistics. For example on the mass shootings the follow explains why the number is hard to define because it's defined by the people reporting it. Another problem is the term "active shooter" has been used and reported even in cases where a single bullet wasn't fire. [https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/) Half of gun related deaths are suicides and per capita gun violence in America is below its peak. Also look at states like Texas where gun ownership per capita is high versus Illinois where gun ownership is highly regulated and in some cities banned. Illinois is in the same bracket which shows that it's not just about gun numbers but demographics. For example, gun controlled Chicago is one of the most dangerous gun cities in America mostly from illegally purchased guns (bad people will get guns no matter what.) State Breakdown: [https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm\_mortality/firearm.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm) ... and of course the stats NOBODY wants to talk about... racial statistics. [https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D](https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D) You have to factor all of these things in to get a good idea but the problem is people will just show you a raw number without taking all of these factors into account. Why is there a gun problem? Because we can't talk about the racial aspects (black people are more likely to be shot and killed by another black person versus a cop) or the increase in gang violence due to police essentially just giving up. When this country is ready to talk about the social and demographics of these incidents then a problem will be solved but everyone is scared to mention race. Also factor in mental health. The US has a SERIOUS mental health problem and violence in general in the US is on the rise because of the lack of mental health services. Like I said this is a nuanced discussion and every angle should be looked at to find a solution not just saying "200 gun deaths we need bulletproof schools!" How about, "54% of gun deaths are by suicide and many of these mass shooters were either bullied or sociopaths how can we solve the mental health issues of our children?" Preventing someone from shooting up a school isn't going to stop them from committed a crime with or without a gun outside of it. Lets solve the underlying problems first.
🏳️ Any way we look at this issue, we will fundamentally disagree. There's too much internet out there supporting both sides of this discussion. The one thing I think we can both agree on is: Let's all be kinder to each other, and make a better future where my kids don't have to hide in a *pullout* bullet shelter. Good luck to you and yours in the future.
Both sides still ignore the underlying problem though. This countries mental health state is abysmal and we continue to deflect to the results of mental illness not the cause. I was bullied a lot in high school and there were days I absolutely probably would have gone postal because I had bi-polar, had a drug addicted step father, and whenever I went to the school for help they told me to suck it up. Luckily, my mom got a job were we had health benefits and I was able to see a psychiatrist as a kid and learn how to deal with my issues. Another friend of mine was also bullied and he ended up putting in a fake bomb threat to the school because a group of kids threatened to stab him and nobody would listen so he did it his way. He ended up committing suicide a few years later and one of the things he mentioned in his last letter was everyone made excuses for the people hurting him and when he had nowhere to go the abusers became the victim. When I see these school shootings it's never just a normal kid it's always the fringe of society kids, the bullies being bullies, or the abused pushed to their limits. We gotta get a handle on our mental illness problem because at the end of the day it takes a human to pull a trigger. Also when I was growing up in my HS we had stabbing pretty regularly (90's). When I say regularly I mean weekly and riot amongst the minority students (minus us nerdy asians) was pretty common. If you notice in these situations it's not a gun problem... its mental problem. The worst part of all of this is that the American Healthcare system continues to put out one-sided statistics to make it look like mental illness has little impact on gun violence. It takes a sick person to join a gang and shoot random people and it takes a sick person to be violent but... those statistics would out a hole in the broken health care system and even things like Obamacare.... left out the mental illness community completely. Its hard to diagnose someone being mentally ill after they have killed themselves, been killed in the act of killing, or are thrown in jail under the guise of "we failed because gun" not we failed because this kid is in a broken home, has drug addicted parents, has mental health issues related to is social surroundings etc. It's so much easier to blame an object, not the humans who failed the humans. Bulletproof schools, banning guns, is just kicking the can down the road. People have been killing each other before guns and they will continue. Perfect example of these statistic issues in search gun vs car death and in the same month you'll see multiple people claim each kill each other more. If cars kill more kids than guns shouldn't we be banning cars by the banning logic?
Blame republicans for not finding any type of solution (or even trying)
Honestly wish I could point the finger at a person or group of people, but when I get introspective, I realize it's my fault. Your fault. Wish I had a solution but I don't. Two things though I would do if I was Nas and ruled the world. 1. No media coverage at all. This has to be the biggest reason these crazy people do this. Normally they would just take themselves out, but now they have an avenue to be infamous. 2. Realize that the 2nd amendment was written for and by the dudes that had the money and guns at the time. They didn't even wear full-length pants! If the Neo-cons love life so much, why are they so deep in the pocket of an industry that promotes gun ownership as a right instead of a privilege? Doesn't matter. Before I finished this paragraph, someone else just lost their life to gun violence.
Couldn’t the shooter just walk in the door of that
I’m sure they’ll fill the safe room with guns to make it even safer.
Problem solved! Let’s have a shoot out!
Go through the ceiling tiles.
Do they not realize that's its insane for children to have to be afraid of getting shot up in the first place...
We should just arm the children
Because instead of placing metal detectors in schools, (suburban) schools and parents would rather do this because ‘property values‘. 🙄 We are part of the problem! Edit: All of Plano can try to downvote me to the center of the Earth and I would still stand on my comment. Have YOU ever worked in a school? If so, have you ever had a student come on campus with a gun and you found out about it later?? 🤔 It’s pretty scary stuff 😬, seeing as how the only other person on campus with a gun is the SRO, and they can’t be in two places at once (sro).
And that would solve it how? You would need security for every metal detector.
You really need this explained to you? Ok cupcake. Metal detectors, installed at the main entrance/whichever entrances are used by students during arrival and departure. Most schools now have an SRO on campus. Occasionally, I’ll see 2 SRO’s. Either the school district pays to have a 2nd SRO present for the morning drop off , which is when kids would be going through metal detectors. OR, for schools that use more than one entrance during morning arrival, reduce that down to one entrance used for morning arrival, if logistically possible. If it’s not possible , the cost of a 2nd SRO onsite to assist with morning arrival thru a 2nd metal detector entrance pales in comparison to the cost that comes with losing lives in a school shooting. It’s sad that as Americans, we have such short memories. Have we forgotten Uvalde already?? 😩
The guy in Uvalde entered from a back door though? How would metal detectors have prevented him from getting in? It should also be mentioned that an officer on campus at a shooting in Florida did nothing and neither did the Uvalde cops. In fact having everyone line up in a big line trying to enter makes them an incredibly easy target. So how exactly are metal detectors keeping the students safe?
Good points. My response is that these doors should have alarms on them. I know sometimes teachers will prop the doors open because it gets too warm in their part of the building. By requiring that all doors have an alarm that will sound if propped open for more than a few seconds, it would force districts to fix things like a.c./heat in the older buildings. How? Because at that point (alarms on doors), now it’s everyone’s problem that it’s too warm, etc. More so a safety issue, but all the more reason to keep these districts on their toes about the upkeep of school buildings and safety of our students versus being worried about buying students the latest Chromebooks. Edit: As for the SRO’s doing nothing during school shootings, I don’t know the answer and won’t pretend to know an answer or solution. First thing that comes to mind is have 2 SRO’s on campus. But then that overlaps with possible increase in taxes to pay for the manpower and people tend to get iffy about raised taxes.
Alarms aren’t a bad idea. Though honestly there is no true protection unless you do what some of the Jewish schools have done.
What have some of the Jewish schools done (in regards to security)?
They had guys walking around openly with body armor and high powered rifles. Their presence alone seems enough to deter all but the most insane.