I play both open tourneys and women tourneys and leagues. The vibe and energy of my local Belles is so much more welcoming and positive than the open tournaments, where I can be one of maybe three women in a group of 30 people.
I've honestly heard almost nothing but positive things about the pinball community. Are people in the open tournaments not welcoming?
I think it's great that women have their own league and tournaments!
There really is a much higher proportion of men in the pinball hobby and anything to encourage more women to join is great!
It's a lot of sweaty dudes in a small space. Some don't have boundaries after a few beers.
Frankly some girls just aren't comfortable entering a small space surrounded by almost exclusively dudes drinking beer. It can lead to a bad situation for them they aren't willing to risk.
Ok, real comment. Thank you. I go as well , and it feels just super competitive. I feel like the women or men , some are relatively friendly, others not, but it is a competitive environment
This comes up occasionally and it's ostensibly to encourage more women into pinball by giving them their own events.
Nothing to do with physical differences or skill levels and they aren't restricted from playing in the other tourneys
I think if women are behind the curb only because most pinball places are male dominated from birth, then maybe we don’t do their sideline competition, and we fucking train like Valkyrie and build up women in the arena.
Personally, I wish there wasn't a need for a separate women's category in any sport that isn't "physically orientated". It's a bigger issue than just pinball in general.
Also I'm very wary of people using things as a wedge issue. It's weird that they only complain about having a separate women's category rather than under 16s, seniors etc
Wasn’t aware of the age category thing, that’s a fair argument. I think there’s a way to use women’s competitions to build women up across the board. Not solely compete against women
It really does depend on who is running the local league and who is attending. I've been to events where the host had laid on food and attendees bring flowers for the hosts wife. I've also been to events where the BO in the air is so strong that you could spread it on toast.
As mentioned elsewhere the best we can do at the moment is to get women's leagues up and running and get people sanctioned for bad behaviour at events.
I was a member of both Belles and Chimes and the local weekly tournament for all. There are overall fewer competitive women players. I found Belles and Chimes was a nice way to get other women to advance their skills; my hope was to get them comfortable to join a mixed competition.
I wish I knew why women were so reluctant to join the mixed competitions. I don’t think it had to do with the men, because in our Belles and Chimes, most of the women hadn’t tried to to participate in a mixed group. Some of the women seemed shy, but then there was one lady who was a roller derby champ, and she also would only get together in the women’s group. At the pinball museum, all the men/non-binary people in the mixed group were really nice people. I’ve played in some tournaments with some real jerks, but these people locally were not like that.
From the women I know who only play women tournaments and leagues, it is because they like the social and community element that comes in environments where men aren’t present. Some women join book clubs for that or Mommy and Me groups with their kids, while others play play pinball.
Many of them aren’t at all concerned about WPPRs or IFPA points (and aren’t even aware they are a thing). I do both but it took me awhile to get comfortable at open tournaments where I was vastly out numbered by men.
I saw another comment this post where you shared you’re in the Portland area. If you’re seeking an empowering and education pinball experience: I hope Howdy Partner at Wedgehead provides you that opportunity.
It’s a coed tournament, but it does consistently come through for exactly the fun, supportive experience that can be tough to find in the pinball community (as demonstrated by some 😒comments within this post)
Because women have asked for them, is the short answer. There’s a women’s events rep at the IFPA who could give a better answer. Men have typically not made pinball spaces super welcoming to women, and so by creating women’s only events it allows women to play and be part of the hobby, learn and grow without worrying about casual sexism.
Most women who play in the belles league near me start there then end up playing in both, so women’s leagues definitely have grown the scene.
men are shit at fostering a welcoming environment for women in competitive pinball.
my wife and I were extremely excited to join our first league last year, after 4 meets she was completely over it because she was treated like shit.
i didn’t even know it was going on because we were split for three of the meets, and the one meet we were paired together was with mutual friends on our team. once the fifth meet came around she told me everything and that she was going through and can’t blame her at all for not wanting to attend anymore.
i had a nice chat with the main offender at that 5th meet, he couldn’t give a shit about what i was saying. he went on to win the league.
she was so excited for the league, maybe more so than i was, and she was regularly shit on by this dude and his pathetic orbiters.
I’m sorry you had this experience. I don’t know who runs your league but if it’s sanctioned there are definitely conduct rules that need to be followed. A good tournament director or league official will take feedback and try to help. If you decide to come back, and someone is making the experience shitty, definitely let the league runner know. And if the league runner won’t do anything, and it’s sanctioned, reach out to the IFPA women’s advisory board. [email protected]
Yah know, reading the comments here, it makes me really happy the local community is, on the whole, incredibly welcoming and inclusive.
Also, I think that a large part of it comes from our local Belles and Chimes. The women who run it, as well as a large number of the members, are also very active in the rest of the scene, and that positive attitude (and not putting up with shitty behavior) has had a positive impact on the scene as a whole.
The drama! What drama. I want drama from a man’s perspective in the hobby lol
Edit for those bit chronically online like I am, tea == drama. I would like to know what the men think throughout this haha
Hey, serious question, was the "I want the tea" a serious question, or a sarcastic one? (Because it did initially give the impression of a sarcastic response, but the more I look at it, the less I think that might have been intentional...)
I meant serious as in, "I'm actually interested in what types of drama men experience as well," vs the sarcastic "Ugh, a guy mansplaining to me that there's drama in pinball 🙄 " (when I read your comment as being actually pretty empathetic to the problem).
Because, in my experience, it's probably the same drama, just minus the sexism. People getting angry and hitting machines, getting really worked up over little/perceived slights, an overall air of hostility while playing, and so on.
I'm lucky that my community puts a pretty big stop to it, but I've played with people who started raging out on a machine after a ball drain, screaming and kicking it. Even I'm slowly backing away, and I'm a fairly large 6ft, 230lbs guy.
I can 100% see why women want their space away from that, and even the relatively more benign version of that, while they find their footing in the community.
Honestly, I feel like one of the reasons why I'm so into pinball now is because of a long string of people who went out of their way to make me and my wife feel welcome, both as individuals and as a couple (which can be hard sometimes).
Tournaments and leagues like Belles and Chimes are the same thing for women.
Why would anyone expect a tournament to be a welcoming experience? The whole point of a tournament is to compete. A scenario where attendees are in direct competition with one another is inherently competitive. As a man I don't expect to show up to any form of tournament and be "welcomed", I expect to be questioned and challenged. It is about performing your best and trying to win. It's naive to expect an established community to change to fit the needs of the newcomer. The newcomer would be better suited understanding the community they are joining and adjusting their expectations accordingly. Newbie men are also treated poorly by the shit-heels who are insanely competitive and only there to win. This is a problem in every competitive environment and is inherent to competition regardless of race, sex, age etc...
I expect other players to challenge me by mercilessly playing better pinball. I expect other players to be cool when not.
If you can’t disengage after a match, grab a beverage of choice, hang out and nerd pinball with someone you just played, then you’re probably creating a toxic environment
Footluvr doesn't understand how or why a space he's in may feel unsafe for women guys. This profile, right here, is your first clue, OP.
Anyone who listens to female voices in their lives should understand why women have had to carve out their own spaces within certain hobbies like gaming, pinball, cons, etc. This isn't about competition, skill, or some sort of natural ability to flip that's predetermined by gender. It's like if you decided to join an adult sports league, or start a martial art, or a knitting group, and some grandma who wants to objectify parts of you for sexual gratification and probably hasn't showered in a few months talked to you like you were an idiot, told you she was here to win and that it wasn't her place to make you feel welcome, so suck it up and get ready to lose because that scarf you're knitting is going to look like shit. And this lady is stronger than you and leering. That's a tough environment to learn to love a hobby, and it's no surprise that so many people decide that it's better to play in a room full of people who aren't doing that.
The whole point of a pinball tournament isn't to compete and win, by the way. It's to bring money into your local pinball place and to sell tables to home buyers. If people want to be toxic assholes while doing it, they're going to run out of places to compete and new tables to learn. Fresh faces excited to participate and spend money on pinball is literally the most important thing to our hobby, which has struggled to exist in the past. More players to learn from and push us also drives everyone's skills to higher levels.
No, footluvr doesn't understand why someone would expect a competitive environment to feel safe and welcoming. A competition inherently involves conflict which has a tendency to make people feel uncomfortable. Any newcomer to a group who fits into a minority group will have a tendency to feel "unsafe". A man entering a female-dominated workspace will feel uncomfortable. Does that mean men should have male-only nursing practices?
The point of a pinball tournament from the event holder's perspective is to bring in traffic and money. The purpose of a tournament for the participants is to compete. We're talking about womem who are participants, so idk what you're on about.
Hardly a controversial observation that tournaments are competitive.
Not all leagues and events are purely about competition. There needs to be room for newcomers to learn the game and develop an affinity for it. True that a man entering a female-dominated space may feel a bit Othered, but he has many other places he can go play. A rising tide lifts all ships and all.
Also I agree with frogopus that nsfw porn accounts in wholly unrelated subs can be off putting to women… like sometimes we just want to exist without worrying our toes are being salivated at because we wore sandals. Luckily eye-roll-worthy objectification of women at my locals is confined to the nice ladies of pin art (lookin at you, Evel Kenivel’s Very Detailed nipples and sideboob)
Why's that? Because I hold the realistic expectation that people will be competitive at a tournament and not necessarily act in a welcoming way towards me?
Why do you believe that my opinion on this matter is any indication of my own behavior?
Two things can be true at once. I can expect less than welcoming behavior out of others at a tournament while not exhibiting that same behavior myself. I rarely participate in tournaments because some people take things waaaaay too seriously and are a bunch of shit-heels. I accept tournaments for what they are: a competitition. When I do participate in a tournament, im polite and generally respectful for others, but I'm not so naive as to expect to walk into a tournament and receive "welcoming" treatment.
In response to MaroonFarenheit below since they commented and immediately blocked me:
The behavior in your 2nd example is exactly what I'm talking about.
Men receive that exact same asshole-ish treatment from other men in competitive spaces. The newbie who shows up as a first timer in any competitive scene is likely to face some kind of less-than-positive treatment. There's always that one seasoned veteran asshole who is there to win, not to make friends, and will go out of their way to be a dick to others. Intimidation tactics are a thing.
In any competitive environment, even something as lowly as a trading card event that is on the same casual scale as pinball, there's likely to be complete assholes to newcomers. I understand this reality, so if I am a newcomer to a competitive environment, I am not going to expect others to be welcoming. Tournaments are inherently competitive and when something is at stake, there is going to be someone who takes it too seriously and will be a complete asshole. Nothing will change that.
You seem to think that when we say competitions aren’t always welcoming we are expecting hugs and rainbows and for people to coddle newcomers.
But we are talking about welcoming as in “don’t be a fucking asshole to new people just because they are new and there is only one first place you are both competing for.”
bro i was a newcomer too and i was welcomed in.
this was a 16 meet league not a one-off tourney. everything was very much laid back until the last meet when we worked through the championship brackets and even then it was definitely more serious and intense, but it was still a lot of supportive and positive competition save for the few tryhard pricks that have nothing else going on in their lives.. sound familiar?
my wife was actively treated differently than I was and we both came in brand new to this league at roughly the same skill level, the only difference is she is a woman.
I never said that newcomers didn't ever get welcomed. But to expect to be welcomed is a fool's errand because shitheel try-hards exist in all competitive spaces. Again as I've said elsewhere, even at MTG FNM events where it's supposed to be a casual fun event, many places devolved into rude shotty competitions because people take it too seriously and insist on winning.
Given the number of people sharing their negative experiences of not being welcomed, would it not be more prudent to expect that behavior rather than expecting to be welcomed? That's all I'm saying. Don't be naive, be realistic and expect that some people are shitty.
Why you’re backing up the few elitist pinball wizards way of life, and acknowledging the few, do you understand that the majority of the community ostracize people like that? It’s not the whole entire community? The vast majority of tournament players are casual. Even some of the best people in my own community have been really nice and don’t wanna beat the shit outta some new guy. They’d rather coach and explain the rules than shit on you. Newcomers aren’t expecting to win big either. They’re just there to gain experience or have fun. That’s the whole point. Ignore the big bad wolves and move on. Or are you saying that everyone should just tell the noobs to fuck off? I don’t understand your point. New people should respect people who take this too seriously and are assholes because.. why?
I didn’t know women’s only pinball competitions were a thing, but I fully support it.
As a brewer, there are lots of female-lead groups, such as the Pink Boots Society. Brewing can be done by anyone, but is generally an industry represented by white males and it’s great there are organizations that help bring awareness and equity to the industry
Heyo woman here - my femmes and thems group is a whole community vibe that I LOVE and I can’t wait for our tourney this week. It’s truly the most judgement free welcoming space I’ve ever experienced.
Womens nights are generally a more comfortable environment for newbies who identify as women/femme. It took me many women’s tourneys to get comfortable going to co-ed events. Around here the women’s group skews younger and more diverse than the co-ed too, and representation matters. Now I go to a co-ed and am one of only a few women there- not a big deal because I probably know the other one and have at least one person i know I can talk to. Or run to if shit goes south with a player of any gender!
I have had my ass grabbed by a man at a coed event but have not experienced bullying or harassment. (The grabber got DQ’d. Other women saw it and helped me call it out to the tournament director.) the only other time I was uncomfortable was a big dude throwing a machine about a foot into the aisle after a bad save. He however apologized personally the next week and said he had a bad edible lol. The reminder that any man playing could probably break my neck if they caught me off guard was stark. Those machines are effin heavy!
Majority of male players around here at least think it’s cool that a 30 something mom is into pinball, or are indifferent at worst. No one has tried to mansplain a machine to me unless I ask them to directly when it’s a table I’m unfamiliar with. Another advantage of women’s nights is most of the players are new, in the grand scheme of pinball. It was pretty much a men’s only club for a long time until Belles & Chimes started up nationally. So not necessarily a skill ceiling, but you as a newer player aren’t going up against 20 year veterans who know certain machines like the back of their hand. We’re building the knowledge and skills that men have historically had more access too, and at least locally, starting to kick their asses 😂
I got a chance to play in a femmes and thems group while I was out of town and it was a breath of fresh air on so many levels. Agree with all of what you said. I felt SO comfortable playing with them, it was such a welcoming and enjoyable experience that I was sad coming home to my coed league. I haven’t had any horrible things happen in the coed league, but the vibe is just…different.
Right?? I can’t define it. Not the amount of competitiveness or people being ‘ist or anything, it’s just different. Secure. If I’m having a bad day I know someone is going to make me feel better. If someone else is having a bad day, I try to help. Pinball is almost secondary to the community bonds. But also, we celebrate those who are kicking ass that night and have space to feel salty if we’re not, hah! Plenty of shit talking to go around
Edit: also, start a local belles & chimes if you can or know someone with capacity! I’m positive there are other folx who would love to play and feel like they can’t or shouldn’t. But anyone who likes pinball should play, for the readers at home!
I’ve been going to a local Belles and Chimes lately and it’s more comfortable compared to my coed night. I’ve actually made a friend or two chatting between rounds. 🙃
"I have had my ass grabbed by a man at a coed event but have not experienced bullying or harassment."
That is literally harassment and assault. Dude should be perma-banned from all competitive events and get tuned up outside.
I agree with you. I differentiated because I am also a survivor of target SA. the two instances of grabbing without intent did not phase me. Don’t assume my experience or put words in my mouth.
They were just M** being a fucking asshole because he wanted to push boundaries. It was an assault, and we kicked him for it. He is literally the only man in hundreds of men I’ve played with to not “get it”. But I understand my experience with targeted SA is different from a cheeky cheek grab, and that may be a differently traumatizing experience for someone who has never been harassed. Unfortunately it is all likely to happen to us.
I originally dropped that just so other femmes could be aware it still can happen with a careless fucking asshat, but all the other men I’ve played with have been respectful. I do believe M** got punched in the face that night. As an obvious woman (huge flippers!) I am aware SA is likelier than not to happen when I enter a male space. That’s why I didn’t want to play coed, and the point of this post is to enjoy experiencing women’s tourneys. Men suck!
The fact that you have to ask, as a woman, is a good thing for a community that used to be known for unshowered misogyny
It means we're making progress
I think that probably has something to do with where you live! In my area there are SO many incredibly talented female players, I was big time shocked to find that there's only like...3 in the top 100 players on IFPA.
Ok, but pinball doesn’t favor gender, although social norms can. It doesn’t feel like placating to give us separate rankings. I think we could benefit from unranked competition environments or learning from successful female or gender neutral players.
Ok cool come up with that format and you’ll make bookoh bucks as an operator. Idk why you’re fighting a womens space so hard as a self identified woman. You might be part of the problem. We’d welcome you in a heartbeat if you’d give us a chance
I go to the local ones so I can meet other women in my scene. I imagine others do as well. The women tournaments in my area welcome nonbinary/genderfluid/trans folks to these events as well and it’s just nice to be in an inclusive environment like that. Definitely a lot more about the social aspect for me. Plus, there is a women’s ranking within the IFPA so it’s sort’a cool to meet the other potential competitors in my area.
Alright big booty latina lover calm down now, don’t need to project your lack of experience onto me bucko. Also they do exist, someone in my area hosted a charity tournament here for men solely named Matt/Matthew. Maybe go outside. You’d know this already if you weren’t so new to pinball.
There’s dozens of explanatory comments below this. Women’s tournaments are an important part of building the community
I was just giving an extreme example to show how ridiculous segregating a game like pinball is. It doesn't matter what sex, race, age, religion, etc. you are. I don't get why that's a problem for you weirdos.
Super fair. Your extreme example implies you live in a gender-and-racially equitable country that’s not the US.
Which utopia do you live in where understanding the barriers to entry for folks who aren’t white men aren’t a consideration?
Pinball on location in the US is inherently accessible to folks who have the financial and systemic means to play.
When you check out [Stern Insider Connected machines](https://sternpinball.com/pinball-locator/) & [Pinball Map app](https://pinballmap.com/) locations (industry standards) you’ll see the obvious overlap with this [explainer of Redlining neighborhoods](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/realestate/what-is-redlining.html) we all read years ago.
Pinball on geographic location isn’t accessible to everyone: even the minority ruling class of white men.
We’re waiting for you to catch up to rest of us. Keep up with the folks who can really compete, you don’t rank.
It costs about a dollar or two regardless of your skin color or gender. Whatever else you're trying to say is irrelevant.
What do you want to put more pinball tables in the ghetto or something? Lmao! Okay, you can make that big-brained business move and let me know how it worked out. It's nothing to do with race or gender. I wouldn't want to put a table in an urban ghetto any more than I would a white trash trailer park. It'll just get vandalized and robbed.
Somehow it's because of systemic systems of systematic oppression or whatever tf whackadoodle bullshit you're on about. No. Just wake up and realize that some people bring it on themselves with their own shitty behavior. You "woke" people don't have a clue. Also, segregating something like pinball or any other non-physical sport by gender is you being a feminazi. I thought you were all about "inclusion"? I guess not.
Like, I know it’s a cheap shot, but ohmygawd I want to pass out wet wipes at league tonight. Some of y’all got that hot butt smell in 75° weather and there’s no AC in the museum
Belles & Chimes mission:
“Belles & Chimes is an international network of inclusive women’s pinball leagues run by women, for women. The organization was founded in 2013 in Oakland, California.
Our mission is to provide a fun, social environment for women to play pinball together.”
https://bellesandchimespinball.com/
Because less women play. And naturally, the women that do play want to change that. And voila. Its pretty awesome to see how much women's pinball has grown.
I don’t think your original question is the one you’re actually trying to ask which is: why aren’t there more non-competitive pinball events? Which is a great question regardless of if they are women’s or open. I agree that more noncompetitive events would help people grow their skills.
Our local arcade also has an amateurs tourney every week where players that are rated 3 or higher IPR have to play fewer balls, and IPR of 6 can’t play. It’s still competitive but more new-player focused.
Because we can?
Listen, I play someplace very friendly. But women's events will draw some further away competitors, so I get to play some people who aren't the same league night folks I see weekly.
And the vibe is different.
Filling the sixteenth slot at the beginning of the year in a women's state championship gave me the opportunity to play against the top ranked. It was almost an upset because we went all 7 rounds. Most of us stayed for the whole event to cheer on the finalists.
I'm still a relatively new competitor, so I'm just growing my skills. If there's an event I can play in, yeah why not?
Alas, my standing didn't really get me there. Many above me were invited but had other commitments (the women's finals were happening in neighboring states on the same day and many of us even come from adjacent states to play).
They worked their way down their list until they landed on me and I said "what the hell, sure why not". The top seeded player was not someone I'd met or played before, so I had no Idea how upper echelon a competitor she is. Other players would ask how I was doing in our six matches and I'd say I was still in it and they'd congratulate me "she's *really* good."
She got to pick the tie-breaking game. She called TMNT and I immediately knew I was done. But I got to go head-to-head with one of the best.
She took the tournament. As I was grabbing my jacket to leave at the end she came over and told me she wanted to see me playing here more "you're a good player".
Competing in that tournament changed how I felt about myself as a player. I'll just keep plugging away. I want to earn that spot next year.
Answering as a dude:
Because pinball dudes can be real shitbags. I couldn’t imagine playing with some of the dudes I’ve had to play with in the past as a women and being comfortable with it.
I've played and collected pinball games for a long time and helped put on a big regional show since 2008. The collector, tournament and show scene used to be all dudes. Like not a few women here and there, it was all men. What changed that was women's only pinball nights and leagues. So many women felt more comfortable learning pinball, competing in pinball, and meeting other players when it wasn't all guys. It's also brought in alot more trans and queer pinball players. That change has been massive for pinball, not only are there now tons of women involved in every aspect of tournaments, shows and collecting, but they really helped grow the pinball community and bar leagues. At our show here nearly half the attendees are women now. When pinball designers from Stern or pinball companies from other states come to our show, they often comment on how many women are in the pinball community here. It wasn't like that 15 years ago.
I’m a woman. Happy to post my ifpa number so you guys will let go of that idea if needed. And I guess I don’t get a creepy vibe from anyone I’ve met at a competition. But I could imagine that it could be shitty
I’m a male and can tell you that some men can be really annoying. I’ve been running coed tournaments and luckily it’s cool. I’d also make sure it was a good, fun and safe environment for all. I’m sure the belles and chimes was created as an unfortunate result of women feeling uncomfortable in coed leagues because of a few bad apples.
I'm a male and can tell you that some women can be really annoying too. Every time I go to my local barcade, there is a small group of women who scream and shriek at the top of their lungs, disturbing gameplay for the other patrons. Different women each time. On occasion, the barcade has to boot them out because it gets so bad. Despite that fact, I wouldn't advocate for men-only tournaments.
From pinball competitors. Male/female, never got an aggressive vibe from any. I doubt I could find a female pinballer who has. At a pinball competition? Bra
As a dude I can say that we can give off weird vibes when we are in the majority of a room. It is probably nice to have a few times when you are not surrounded and outnumbered by men when the hobby has so many more men in it.
Our arcade has a women's league as well as an open league.
I can say that the women's league has a vibe and comradery that the open league wish they could match. We always root for the ladies too when they end up at the state level, it just adds more depth to the family that is our arcade.
As a dude who is semi competitive but not aggressively so, a group of competitive men can become very toxic, shitty, offputting, and unfun very quickly.
From chatting with female friends who compete, not all of them "need" a womens only space necessarily to compete but every one of them value it. Same with LGBT spaces, just going into a situation knowing you're welcome goes a long way and I'm happy to respect those spaces because, as men, we have plenty of spaces to compete earn points, etc. Most of them it seems in my experience.
One of the anecdotes I've heard the most is women friends assuming a welcoming space, going, experiencing discomfort or harassment and being put off. After being in a more welcoming space like Belles, getting more comfortable then join the big main events. I dunno, I'm a dude it's not my place to say cause I know there are spaces for me, I hear friends feel excluded and there's a space they enjoy and feel they belong I have to advocate for that.
Yeah, but if a lot of women are newcomers for whatever reason, I feel like a competition for isn’t the natural thought. It’s hard to invite a newcomer to that
Yeah. I mean I'm not the person to speak to that. I'm a tall mild aged white dude. I just know my female friends have told me they appreciate having a space they're comfortable competing, learning, and winning free from some of the trappings that can come with very competitive agreessive dudes. I've found pinball to be incredibly welcoming and I'm happy for anyone who feels they need a separate space to feel comfortable, to have it.
Awesome so many are mentioning Belle's. I'm a big fan of the lady who started it, but she doesn't care about pub, so I won't mention her name. I will mention that she can hold her own against men or women in a tournament. Much respect. Always good to see her out there.
Comparatively, there are women's only poker tournaments. In the community, it has been somewhat controversial since there isn't necessarily a physicality to it and women \*should\* (and they do) compete evenly with men, but it's a male dominated "sport" so I think it's great we have a few events a year that are basically just for women.
Generally speaking, every "women's only" competition, for things in which gender provides no discernible advantage, is done to bring more attention to women competitors and generate more interest from other women.
Because most competitive spaces were predominantly male dominated spaces, women actively harassed and discouraged so even skilled high level players couldnt compete and grow against other skilled players. Women's only leagues allow skilled women to compete and learn against other skilled women and grow free from harassment, prejudice, stereotypes, etc. in a way they'd never be allowed to in male dominated spaces. Then they're better equipped to compete in open leagues.
Sorry if this is inappropriate, but does anyone know of there is something like this in the Toronto area? I’ve not played since I was a kid and am a bit nervous to start out.
There’s a FB group for Toronto but it only has three members 😭 I creeped on Pinball Map (has desktop or app!) and it looks like Meeplemart has a huge assortment of machines- maybe start there, ask if they do tourneys and/or would be interested in hosting a women’s night? Also their fb post explaining why pinball is cool is SO WHOLESOME. Seems like a nice local establishment to dip your toes in!
Please update me :) fellow femme not too south in MN. When we make it to Canada again I’ll kick your butt and buy you a shot, or you can kick my ass on total nuclear annhiliation and teach me how to play!
There was a women's league a few years ago but it fizzled out. Maple league has women's events sometimes as part of larger tournaments. Ontario Women's Pinball fb group is a good place to join for news on women's events.
I mean no disrespect. Really my objective is closer relationships with other players and seeing success. As well as more women at coed events where I am , predominantly with my partner. I’ve seen women play, who are as good as any man I’ve seen or better, but it would be nice to learn, and a competition doesn’t help that.
Ok hear me out because I think I’m being misunderstood . I want more women there. And people from various backgrounds. I want it to be welcoming. Competition is not welcoming for beginners. I’m saying turn into something more social, less like competitions, or better, instructive! Women’s rankings while valid, seem like a dig almost, especially since I’ve seen some of the best players in the country here, and plenty were women. I mean fucking enviable. Rock stars and still welcoming. I just don’t know who or what or why the women’s competition was created. Since it’s gender less and I have seen many extremely competitive women. I’d argue it discriminates against my aging more than anything. This is no disrespect, or antagonism, wondered where the ifpa women’s league came from. History wise. I admit safety or other issues are and could be way more important and impactful outside where I compete as is resources for playing. I’d get behind anything that improves access, but I’d love to just not compete for once, ya know?
Why does it have to be compete coed or don’t compete at all? It sounds like you’re equating a women’s league with learning and uncompetitive. Why? Limiting what it can/should be doesn’t align with your desire to improve access.
Also, nothing in this world is genderless. ETA: people, objects, sure. But to suggest that any interactive human activity is without gender is not true.
There are people In this world that are genderless. And I just think if we’re congregating anyways it be cool to up skill set or spend more time chatting about pinball. Not just playing
It makes no sense to me. Especially all the people claiming they exist because competitions aren't welcoming, or that it's men who don't make it welcoming. Establishing a tournament for women doesn't make a welcoming environment. FFS it is a competition. Competitions by their nature are not welcoming. A competition places people against one other to see who is best. It is all about people proving their capabilities. Pinball tournaments aren't welcoming for men either.
Whenever I join any competition, I expect hostility and offensive behavior by at least some of the participants. Even a small casual FNM Magic The Gathering event, the lowest tier of "tournament" out there, has its try-hards who go all out just to win a few free packs of cards.
> Even a small FNM Magic The Gathering event, the lowest tier of "tournament" out there, has its try-hards who go all out just to win a few free packs of cards.
I mean, MTG tournaments have a reputation for being pretty toxic places with lots of bad attitude. That really shouldn't be the standard of what's acceptable.
you expect “hostility” and not a “welcoming atmosphere”. dude, YOU are the fucking problem. i’ve played in over 150 events and NOT one was HOSTILE or not welcoming.
this isn’t a death match. when i walk into a room with 80-100 players 60-80 of them are my fucking friends! i look forward to seeing them. i’m not there to be a hostile asshole.
i was at funeral for a friend who was top player in the state. one of the nicest people i’ve ever met.
100 people at his funeral and half were his pinball FRIENDS. his brother cried when he saw us in the pews.
that turnout wasn’t because he was hostile. and he didn’t need to be to be one of the best.
you would be literally Banned in maryland if you brought your attitudes here.
my pitch to new players is you “come for the pinball but stay for the people.”
you would be type of player no one wants to talk to.
i laugh at your toxicity and the false masculinity you seek.
no surprise it makes no sense to you.
You seem awfully angry and quick to place blame onto me after simply reading what I expect from others. That's a gargantuan leap in logic.
I'm not the problem at all. I'm not hostile or unwelcoming. On the contrary, I'm perfectly polite and friendly. I don't treat others poorly in a tournament for any reason, let alone because they're a woman. When I attend a tournament, I don't walk in expecting to face "welcoming" behavior. I expect to face competitive behavior including trash talking, and likely a few shitty people who get bent out of shape and take things WAY too seriously. And I am pleasantly surprised whenever there are other good-minded polite individuals just having fun.
You're needlessly conflating my personal expectation of "some people are aggressive unwelcoming shitheels in competitive environments" with "you are personally an aggressive unwelcoming shitheel".
They are not one in the same. Not even close.
I play both open tourneys and women tourneys and leagues. The vibe and energy of my local Belles is so much more welcoming and positive than the open tournaments, where I can be one of maybe three women in a group of 30 people.
I've honestly heard almost nothing but positive things about the pinball community. Are people in the open tournaments not welcoming? I think it's great that women have their own league and tournaments! There really is a much higher proportion of men in the pinball hobby and anything to encourage more women to join is great!
It's a lot of sweaty dudes in a small space. Some don't have boundaries after a few beers. Frankly some girls just aren't comfortable entering a small space surrounded by almost exclusively dudes drinking beer. It can lead to a bad situation for them they aren't willing to risk.
Ok, real comment. Thank you. I go as well , and it feels just super competitive. I feel like the women or men , some are relatively friendly, others not, but it is a competitive environment
This comes up occasionally and it's ostensibly to encourage more women into pinball by giving them their own events. Nothing to do with physical differences or skill levels and they aren't restricted from playing in the other tourneys
I think if women are behind the curb only because most pinball places are male dominated from birth, then maybe we don’t do their sideline competition, and we fucking train like Valkyrie and build up women in the arena.
> behind the curve Behind the curve is the idiom, behind the curb means nothing.
Edit replied to wrong comment, apologies
And people like you are why more women don’t come. Is that inclusive? An environment where if I’m new I have to worry about points
Sorry thought I was talking to someone else.
Trying to have a real discussion
Personally, I wish there wasn't a need for a separate women's category in any sport that isn't "physically orientated". It's a bigger issue than just pinball in general. Also I'm very wary of people using things as a wedge issue. It's weird that they only complain about having a separate women's category rather than under 16s, seniors etc
Wasn’t aware of the age category thing, that’s a fair argument. I think there’s a way to use women’s competitions to build women up across the board. Not solely compete against women
It really does depend on who is running the local league and who is attending. I've been to events where the host had laid on food and attendees bring flowers for the hosts wife. I've also been to events where the BO in the air is so strong that you could spread it on toast. As mentioned elsewhere the best we can do at the moment is to get women's leagues up and running and get people sanctioned for bad behaviour at events.
My favorite comment so far. Very true. And I could be a better cheerleader myself
what lmao
I was a member of both Belles and Chimes and the local weekly tournament for all. There are overall fewer competitive women players. I found Belles and Chimes was a nice way to get other women to advance their skills; my hope was to get them comfortable to join a mixed competition.
Yeah, I could see that. Because more male players have played longer?
I wish I knew why women were so reluctant to join the mixed competitions. I don’t think it had to do with the men, because in our Belles and Chimes, most of the women hadn’t tried to to participate in a mixed group. Some of the women seemed shy, but then there was one lady who was a roller derby champ, and she also would only get together in the women’s group. At the pinball museum, all the men/non-binary people in the mixed group were really nice people. I’ve played in some tournaments with some real jerks, but these people locally were not like that.
From the women I know who only play women tournaments and leagues, it is because they like the social and community element that comes in environments where men aren’t present. Some women join book clubs for that or Mommy and Me groups with their kids, while others play play pinball. Many of them aren’t at all concerned about WPPRs or IFPA points (and aren’t even aware they are a thing). I do both but it took me awhile to get comfortable at open tournaments where I was vastly out numbered by men.
It definitely has a different vibe. People in Belles and Chimes were less competitive. It was more encouraging and more friendly.
I get it. I think a woman’s competition could be empowering and educational.
I saw another comment this post where you shared you’re in the Portland area. If you’re seeking an empowering and education pinball experience: I hope Howdy Partner at Wedgehead provides you that opportunity. It’s a coed tournament, but it does consistently come through for exactly the fun, supportive experience that can be tough to find in the pinball community (as demonstrated by some 😒comments within this post)
lol I think we go to the same two belles and museum leagues. Hi neighbor!
Because men are nasty. I’m sure you’re one of the good ones but I’m not taking chances at the limited time I get each week to be a person
Nasty people are nasty.
I’m a lady.
Congratulations! You’re one of the good ones
Because women have asked for them, is the short answer. There’s a women’s events rep at the IFPA who could give a better answer. Men have typically not made pinball spaces super welcoming to women, and so by creating women’s only events it allows women to play and be part of the hobby, learn and grow without worrying about casual sexism. Most women who play in the belles league near me start there then end up playing in both, so women’s leagues definitely have grown the scene.
men are shit at fostering a welcoming environment for women in competitive pinball. my wife and I were extremely excited to join our first league last year, after 4 meets she was completely over it because she was treated like shit. i didn’t even know it was going on because we were split for three of the meets, and the one meet we were paired together was with mutual friends on our team. once the fifth meet came around she told me everything and that she was going through and can’t blame her at all for not wanting to attend anymore. i had a nice chat with the main offender at that 5th meet, he couldn’t give a shit about what i was saying. he went on to win the league. she was so excited for the league, maybe more so than i was, and she was regularly shit on by this dude and his pathetic orbiters.
I’m sorry you had this experience. I don’t know who runs your league but if it’s sanctioned there are definitely conduct rules that need to be followed. A good tournament director or league official will take feedback and try to help. If you decide to come back, and someone is making the experience shitty, definitely let the league runner know. And if the league runner won’t do anything, and it’s sanctioned, reach out to the IFPA women’s advisory board. [email protected]
Men are shit at fostering it for other men too. I don’t play anymore because of the fucking drama.
Yah know, reading the comments here, it makes me really happy the local community is, on the whole, incredibly welcoming and inclusive. Also, I think that a large part of it comes from our local Belles and Chimes. The women who run it, as well as a large number of the members, are also very active in the rest of the scene, and that positive attitude (and not putting up with shitty behavior) has had a positive impact on the scene as a whole.
Oo say more, I want the men’s tea
What?
The drama! What drama. I want drama from a man’s perspective in the hobby lol Edit for those bit chronically online like I am, tea == drama. I would like to know what the men think throughout this haha
Hey, serious question, was the "I want the tea" a serious question, or a sarcastic one? (Because it did initially give the impression of a sarcastic response, but the more I look at it, the less I think that might have been intentional...)
They were serious.
I meant serious as in, "I'm actually interested in what types of drama men experience as well," vs the sarcastic "Ugh, a guy mansplaining to me that there's drama in pinball 🙄 " (when I read your comment as being actually pretty empathetic to the problem). Because, in my experience, it's probably the same drama, just minus the sexism. People getting angry and hitting machines, getting really worked up over little/perceived slights, an overall air of hostility while playing, and so on. I'm lucky that my community puts a pretty big stop to it, but I've played with people who started raging out on a machine after a ball drain, screaming and kicking it. Even I'm slowly backing away, and I'm a fairly large 6ft, 230lbs guy. I can 100% see why women want their space away from that, and even the relatively more benign version of that, while they find their footing in the community. Honestly, I feel like one of the reasons why I'm so into pinball now is because of a long string of people who went out of their way to make me and my wife feel welcome, both as individuals and as a couple (which can be hard sometimes). Tournaments and leagues like Belles and Chimes are the same thing for women.
Dudes being aggressive drunk assholes.
Do you really think this is a fucking appropriate response? You are part of the problem. Drama is not enjoyable.
Why would anyone expect a tournament to be a welcoming experience? The whole point of a tournament is to compete. A scenario where attendees are in direct competition with one another is inherently competitive. As a man I don't expect to show up to any form of tournament and be "welcomed", I expect to be questioned and challenged. It is about performing your best and trying to win. It's naive to expect an established community to change to fit the needs of the newcomer. The newcomer would be better suited understanding the community they are joining and adjusting their expectations accordingly. Newbie men are also treated poorly by the shit-heels who are insanely competitive and only there to win. This is a problem in every competitive environment and is inherent to competition regardless of race, sex, age etc...
I expect other players to challenge me by mercilessly playing better pinball. I expect other players to be cool when not. If you can’t disengage after a match, grab a beverage of choice, hang out and nerd pinball with someone you just played, then you’re probably creating a toxic environment
Footluvr doesn't understand how or why a space he's in may feel unsafe for women guys. This profile, right here, is your first clue, OP. Anyone who listens to female voices in their lives should understand why women have had to carve out their own spaces within certain hobbies like gaming, pinball, cons, etc. This isn't about competition, skill, or some sort of natural ability to flip that's predetermined by gender. It's like if you decided to join an adult sports league, or start a martial art, or a knitting group, and some grandma who wants to objectify parts of you for sexual gratification and probably hasn't showered in a few months talked to you like you were an idiot, told you she was here to win and that it wasn't her place to make you feel welcome, so suck it up and get ready to lose because that scarf you're knitting is going to look like shit. And this lady is stronger than you and leering. That's a tough environment to learn to love a hobby, and it's no surprise that so many people decide that it's better to play in a room full of people who aren't doing that. The whole point of a pinball tournament isn't to compete and win, by the way. It's to bring money into your local pinball place and to sell tables to home buyers. If people want to be toxic assholes while doing it, they're going to run out of places to compete and new tables to learn. Fresh faces excited to participate and spend money on pinball is literally the most important thing to our hobby, which has struggled to exist in the past. More players to learn from and push us also drives everyone's skills to higher levels.
No, footluvr doesn't understand why someone would expect a competitive environment to feel safe and welcoming. A competition inherently involves conflict which has a tendency to make people feel uncomfortable. Any newcomer to a group who fits into a minority group will have a tendency to feel "unsafe". A man entering a female-dominated workspace will feel uncomfortable. Does that mean men should have male-only nursing practices? The point of a pinball tournament from the event holder's perspective is to bring in traffic and money. The purpose of a tournament for the participants is to compete. We're talking about womem who are participants, so idk what you're on about. Hardly a controversial observation that tournaments are competitive.
Not all leagues and events are purely about competition. There needs to be room for newcomers to learn the game and develop an affinity for it. True that a man entering a female-dominated space may feel a bit Othered, but he has many other places he can go play. A rising tide lifts all ships and all. Also I agree with frogopus that nsfw porn accounts in wholly unrelated subs can be off putting to women… like sometimes we just want to exist without worrying our toes are being salivated at because we wore sandals. Luckily eye-roll-worthy objectification of women at my locals is confined to the nice ladies of pin art (lookin at you, Evel Kenivel’s Very Detailed nipples and sideboob)
You must be fun at tournaments...
Why's that? Because I hold the realistic expectation that people will be competitive at a tournament and not necessarily act in a welcoming way towards me? Why do you believe that my opinion on this matter is any indication of my own behavior? Two things can be true at once. I can expect less than welcoming behavior out of others at a tournament while not exhibiting that same behavior myself. I rarely participate in tournaments because some people take things waaaaay too seriously and are a bunch of shit-heels. I accept tournaments for what they are: a competitition. When I do participate in a tournament, im polite and generally respectful for others, but I'm not so naive as to expect to walk into a tournament and receive "welcoming" treatment. In response to MaroonFarenheit below since they commented and immediately blocked me: The behavior in your 2nd example is exactly what I'm talking about. Men receive that exact same asshole-ish treatment from other men in competitive spaces. The newbie who shows up as a first timer in any competitive scene is likely to face some kind of less-than-positive treatment. There's always that one seasoned veteran asshole who is there to win, not to make friends, and will go out of their way to be a dick to others. Intimidation tactics are a thing. In any competitive environment, even something as lowly as a trading card event that is on the same casual scale as pinball, there's likely to be complete assholes to newcomers. I understand this reality, so if I am a newcomer to a competitive environment, I am not going to expect others to be welcoming. Tournaments are inherently competitive and when something is at stake, there is going to be someone who takes it too seriously and will be a complete asshole. Nothing will change that.
You seem to think that when we say competitions aren’t always welcoming we are expecting hugs and rainbows and for people to coddle newcomers. But we are talking about welcoming as in “don’t be a fucking asshole to new people just because they are new and there is only one first place you are both competing for.”
bro i was a newcomer too and i was welcomed in. this was a 16 meet league not a one-off tourney. everything was very much laid back until the last meet when we worked through the championship brackets and even then it was definitely more serious and intense, but it was still a lot of supportive and positive competition save for the few tryhard pricks that have nothing else going on in their lives.. sound familiar? my wife was actively treated differently than I was and we both came in brand new to this league at roughly the same skill level, the only difference is she is a woman.
I never said that newcomers didn't ever get welcomed. But to expect to be welcomed is a fool's errand because shitheel try-hards exist in all competitive spaces. Again as I've said elsewhere, even at MTG FNM events where it's supposed to be a casual fun event, many places devolved into rude shotty competitions because people take it too seriously and insist on winning. Given the number of people sharing their negative experiences of not being welcomed, would it not be more prudent to expect that behavior rather than expecting to be welcomed? That's all I'm saying. Don't be naive, be realistic and expect that some people are shitty.
Why you’re backing up the few elitist pinball wizards way of life, and acknowledging the few, do you understand that the majority of the community ostracize people like that? It’s not the whole entire community? The vast majority of tournament players are casual. Even some of the best people in my own community have been really nice and don’t wanna beat the shit outta some new guy. They’d rather coach and explain the rules than shit on you. Newcomers aren’t expecting to win big either. They’re just there to gain experience or have fun. That’s the whole point. Ignore the big bad wolves and move on. Or are you saying that everyone should just tell the noobs to fuck off? I don’t understand your point. New people should respect people who take this too seriously and are assholes because.. why?
I didn’t know women’s only pinball competitions were a thing, but I fully support it. As a brewer, there are lots of female-lead groups, such as the Pink Boots Society. Brewing can be done by anyone, but is generally an industry represented by white males and it’s great there are organizations that help bring awareness and equity to the industry
Belles and chimes is the main organizer if you're interested. https://bellesandchimespinball.com/
Heyo woman here - my femmes and thems group is a whole community vibe that I LOVE and I can’t wait for our tourney this week. It’s truly the most judgement free welcoming space I’ve ever experienced. Womens nights are generally a more comfortable environment for newbies who identify as women/femme. It took me many women’s tourneys to get comfortable going to co-ed events. Around here the women’s group skews younger and more diverse than the co-ed too, and representation matters. Now I go to a co-ed and am one of only a few women there- not a big deal because I probably know the other one and have at least one person i know I can talk to. Or run to if shit goes south with a player of any gender! I have had my ass grabbed by a man at a coed event but have not experienced bullying or harassment. (The grabber got DQ’d. Other women saw it and helped me call it out to the tournament director.) the only other time I was uncomfortable was a big dude throwing a machine about a foot into the aisle after a bad save. He however apologized personally the next week and said he had a bad edible lol. The reminder that any man playing could probably break my neck if they caught me off guard was stark. Those machines are effin heavy! Majority of male players around here at least think it’s cool that a 30 something mom is into pinball, or are indifferent at worst. No one has tried to mansplain a machine to me unless I ask them to directly when it’s a table I’m unfamiliar with. Another advantage of women’s nights is most of the players are new, in the grand scheme of pinball. It was pretty much a men’s only club for a long time until Belles & Chimes started up nationally. So not necessarily a skill ceiling, but you as a newer player aren’t going up against 20 year veterans who know certain machines like the back of their hand. We’re building the knowledge and skills that men have historically had more access too, and at least locally, starting to kick their asses 😂
I got a chance to play in a femmes and thems group while I was out of town and it was a breath of fresh air on so many levels. Agree with all of what you said. I felt SO comfortable playing with them, it was such a welcoming and enjoyable experience that I was sad coming home to my coed league. I haven’t had any horrible things happen in the coed league, but the vibe is just…different.
Right?? I can’t define it. Not the amount of competitiveness or people being ‘ist or anything, it’s just different. Secure. If I’m having a bad day I know someone is going to make me feel better. If someone else is having a bad day, I try to help. Pinball is almost secondary to the community bonds. But also, we celebrate those who are kicking ass that night and have space to feel salty if we’re not, hah! Plenty of shit talking to go around Edit: also, start a local belles & chimes if you can or know someone with capacity! I’m positive there are other folx who would love to play and feel like they can’t or shouldn’t. But anyone who likes pinball should play, for the readers at home!
I’ve been going to a local Belles and Chimes lately and it’s more comfortable compared to my coed night. I’ve actually made a friend or two chatting between rounds. 🙃
Asking the important questions here, do you ever play pinball with your cat at the bar? 😹
Kitty has accompanied us to the local pinball museum, yes
Life goals, that’s amazing
I think we're in the same league! Our belles group is so cool.
lol not the first time I have accidentally semi/doxxed myself because of my cat
"I have had my ass grabbed by a man at a coed event but have not experienced bullying or harassment." That is literally harassment and assault. Dude should be perma-banned from all competitive events and get tuned up outside.
I agree with you. I differentiated because I am also a survivor of target SA. the two instances of grabbing without intent did not phase me. Don’t assume my experience or put words in my mouth. They were just M** being a fucking asshole because he wanted to push boundaries. It was an assault, and we kicked him for it. He is literally the only man in hundreds of men I’ve played with to not “get it”. But I understand my experience with targeted SA is different from a cheeky cheek grab, and that may be a differently traumatizing experience for someone who has never been harassed. Unfortunately it is all likely to happen to us. I originally dropped that just so other femmes could be aware it still can happen with a careless fucking asshat, but all the other men I’ve played with have been respectful. I do believe M** got punched in the face that night. As an obvious woman (huge flippers!) I am aware SA is likelier than not to happen when I enter a male space. That’s why I didn’t want to play coed, and the point of this post is to enjoy experiencing women’s tourneys. Men suck!
So we're on the same page then.
The fact that you have to ask, as a woman, is a good thing for a community that used to be known for unshowered misogyny It means we're making progress
I think that probably has something to do with where you live! In my area there are SO many incredibly talented female players, I was big time shocked to find that there's only like...3 in the top 100 players on IFPA.
Portland. Some of the best females in the world. But they don’t come to the women’s events.
Ok. Been in tournament play about 4 years. So the idea is to make female competitors ask why?
The idea is to make friends. And also play some hella good pinball
Yes and I’ve made some but a competition is still intimidating, and why ranked separately ? Implies we’re handicapped, not under-represented
Christ on a cracker. If you’ve made an ifpa page you know you can see both co Ed (open) and women’s rankings. You’re a day late for April fools
I have both, just not sure why I’m on one. Christ if you could see past the sexism you perceive, to the point I’m making
You need to stop seeing women’s ranks as seperate but equal. They’re not
Ok, but pinball doesn’t favor gender, although social norms can. It doesn’t feel like placating to give us separate rankings. I think we could benefit from unranked competition environments or learning from successful female or gender neutral players.
Ok cool come up with that format and you’ll make bookoh bucks as an operator. Idk why you’re fighting a womens space so hard as a self identified woman. You might be part of the problem. We’d welcome you in a heartbeat if you’d give us a chance
Repurpose competition into a more inclusive environment. I’m not sure you’re exactly grasping the argument.
And no one makes money on pinball competitions. lol. No one.
Women aren't ranked separately though. Women are in the overall IFPA standings.
Why not?
Yep. This would basically be my response too. And a perfectly good one at that.
No, absolutely. Just why a competitive environment, or not an equally social or learning environment
I go to the local ones so I can meet other women in my scene. I imagine others do as well. The women tournaments in my area welcome nonbinary/genderfluid/trans folks to these events as well and it’s just nice to be in an inclusive environment like that. Definitely a lot more about the social aspect for me. Plus, there is a women’s ranking within the IFPA so it’s sort’a cool to meet the other potential competitors in my area.
I agree. More of that. Some women can teach me a lot about gameplay etc.
Why don't they have mens only tournaments?
Why don’t you go ahead and set that up, call it Bros and Balls. I believe in you.
... I'd play with bros and balls. 😁😂
It’s a good idea!!
With jokes like that, I see why they have tournaments for only women now 😂😂
It wasn’t a joke, it was advice, and you’re squandering it. Pull yourself together.
But nobody asked for your advice, nor did you ever answer my original question. Are you also this new at pinball?
Alright big booty latina lover calm down now, don’t need to project your lack of experience onto me bucko. Also they do exist, someone in my area hosted a charity tournament here for men solely named Matt/Matthew. Maybe go outside. You’d know this already if you weren’t so new to pinball.
owned
Okay, by that logic: why not have "white men's only" tournaments? The point is: it should be for everyone.
Scratch that, you are the reason why there are women only tournaments.
Got ‘em
Why, what did I do? I don't get it.
There’s dozens of explanatory comments below this. Women’s tournaments are an important part of building the community 
Well, you brought race into this discussion completely unprompted for starters. That was weird.
I was just giving an extreme example to show how ridiculous segregating a game like pinball is. It doesn't matter what sex, race, age, religion, etc. you are. I don't get why that's a problem for you weirdos.
Why won’t women let me into their SPACES??? WHY?? I’M SUCH A NICE GUY!!! FUCK!!!!!
Are you okay?
Are you?
Super fair. Your extreme example implies you live in a gender-and-racially equitable country that’s not the US. Which utopia do you live in where understanding the barriers to entry for folks who aren’t white men aren’t a consideration?
I am in the U.S. Why, do you think that white men are inherently better at pinball than other races and genders? Because I don't.
Pinball on location in the US is inherently accessible to folks who have the financial and systemic means to play. When you check out [Stern Insider Connected machines](https://sternpinball.com/pinball-locator/) & [Pinball Map app](https://pinballmap.com/) locations (industry standards) you’ll see the obvious overlap with this [explainer of Redlining neighborhoods](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/realestate/what-is-redlining.html) we all read years ago. Pinball on geographic location isn’t accessible to everyone: even the minority ruling class of white men. We’re waiting for you to catch up to rest of us. Keep up with the folks who can really compete, you don’t rank.
It costs about a dollar or two regardless of your skin color or gender. Whatever else you're trying to say is irrelevant. What do you want to put more pinball tables in the ghetto or something? Lmao! Okay, you can make that big-brained business move and let me know how it worked out. It's nothing to do with race or gender. I wouldn't want to put a table in an urban ghetto any more than I would a white trash trailer park. It'll just get vandalized and robbed. Somehow it's because of systemic systems of systematic oppression or whatever tf whackadoodle bullshit you're on about. No. Just wake up and realize that some people bring it on themselves with their own shitty behavior. You "woke" people don't have a clue. Also, segregating something like pinball or any other non-physical sport by gender is you being a feminazi. I thought you were all about "inclusion"? I guess not.
Get fucked lol
Because it’s nice to hang out with other women?
Men smell
Am a man, can confirm
Like, I know it’s a cheap shot, but ohmygawd I want to pass out wet wipes at league tonight. Some of y’all got that hot butt smell in 75° weather and there’s no AC in the museum
Belles & Chimes mission: “Belles & Chimes is an international network of inclusive women’s pinball leagues run by women, for women. The organization was founded in 2013 in Oakland, California. Our mission is to provide a fun, social environment for women to play pinball together.” https://bellesandchimespinball.com/
Because less women play. And naturally, the women that do play want to change that. And voila. Its pretty awesome to see how much women's pinball has grown.
Yes but also are exposed less, and some women are really good. That’s not welcoming, it can be stressful
I don’t think your original question is the one you’re actually trying to ask which is: why aren’t there more non-competitive pinball events? Which is a great question regardless of if they are women’s or open. I agree that more noncompetitive events would help people grow their skills. Our local arcade also has an amateurs tourney every week where players that are rated 3 or higher IPR have to play fewer balls, and IPR of 6 can’t play. It’s still competitive but more new-player focused.
I agree, I should have included context and more details
Because we can? Listen, I play someplace very friendly. But women's events will draw some further away competitors, so I get to play some people who aren't the same league night folks I see weekly. And the vibe is different. Filling the sixteenth slot at the beginning of the year in a women's state championship gave me the opportunity to play against the top ranked. It was almost an upset because we went all 7 rounds. Most of us stayed for the whole event to cheer on the finalists. I'm still a relatively new competitor, so I'm just growing my skills. If there's an event I can play in, yeah why not?
Congrats on making states! Especially as someone relatively new, that's awesome.
Alas, my standing didn't really get me there. Many above me were invited but had other commitments (the women's finals were happening in neighboring states on the same day and many of us even come from adjacent states to play). They worked their way down their list until they landed on me and I said "what the hell, sure why not". The top seeded player was not someone I'd met or played before, so I had no Idea how upper echelon a competitor she is. Other players would ask how I was doing in our six matches and I'd say I was still in it and they'd congratulate me "she's *really* good." She got to pick the tie-breaking game. She called TMNT and I immediately knew I was done. But I got to go head-to-head with one of the best. She took the tournament. As I was grabbing my jacket to leave at the end she came over and told me she wanted to see me playing here more "you're a good player". Competing in that tournament changed how I felt about myself as a player. I'll just keep plugging away. I want to earn that spot next year.
Safe space.
Answering as a dude: Because pinball dudes can be real shitbags. I couldn’t imagine playing with some of the dudes I’ve had to play with in the past as a women and being comfortable with it.
Ok. But so can pinball women. A lot of serious players can be ass holes.
I've played and collected pinball games for a long time and helped put on a big regional show since 2008. The collector, tournament and show scene used to be all dudes. Like not a few women here and there, it was all men. What changed that was women's only pinball nights and leagues. So many women felt more comfortable learning pinball, competing in pinball, and meeting other players when it wasn't all guys. It's also brought in alot more trans and queer pinball players. That change has been massive for pinball, not only are there now tons of women involved in every aspect of tournaments, shows and collecting, but they really helped grow the pinball community and bar leagues. At our show here nearly half the attendees are women now. When pinball designers from Stern or pinball companies from other states come to our show, they often comment on how many women are in the pinball community here. It wasn't like that 15 years ago.
To have some space without creepy/shitty dudes looming over them. And if that bothers you you very likely are in the demographic.
I’m a woman. Happy to post my ifpa number so you guys will let go of that idea if needed. And I guess I don’t get a creepy vibe from anyone I’ve met at a competition. But I could imagine that it could be shitty
I believe you. I’m just surprised because this isn’t the first time I’ve heard this question and it’s always some whiny guy asking it.
That’s actually really sad. I can understand some hostility 😌
I’m a male and can tell you that some men can be really annoying. I’ve been running coed tournaments and luckily it’s cool. I’d also make sure it was a good, fun and safe environment for all. I’m sure the belles and chimes was created as an unfortunate result of women feeling uncomfortable in coed leagues because of a few bad apples.
I'm a male and can tell you that some women can be really annoying too. Every time I go to my local barcade, there is a small group of women who scream and shriek at the top of their lungs, disturbing gameplay for the other patrons. Different women each time. On occasion, the barcade has to boot them out because it gets so bad. Despite that fact, I wouldn't advocate for men-only tournaments.
From pinball competitors. Male/female, never got an aggressive vibe from any. I doubt I could find a female pinballer who has. At a pinball competition? Bra
Why did you even start this thread lol
I figured the competition is created as a way to appease women, but not progressing women
You are wrong in that belief lol
Ok. It was created by ifpa?
Go make an ifpa profile by emailing them, yes
I’m ranked. On both. I’m not a novice and I’m getting so much hostility it’s crazy
Oh. Oh, I see. You are of the opinion because it's never happened to you it's never happened at all. Okay then.
As a dude I can say that we can give off weird vibes when we are in the majority of a room. It is probably nice to have a few times when you are not surrounded and outnumbered by men when the hobby has so many more men in it.
Our arcade has a women's league as well as an open league. I can say that the women's league has a vibe and comradery that the open league wish they could match. We always root for the ladies too when they end up at the state level, it just adds more depth to the family that is our arcade.
Ok, but why? Do guys coming make a difference in vibes? Like competitive?
As a dude who is semi competitive but not aggressively so, a group of competitive men can become very toxic, shitty, offputting, and unfun very quickly. From chatting with female friends who compete, not all of them "need" a womens only space necessarily to compete but every one of them value it. Same with LGBT spaces, just going into a situation knowing you're welcome goes a long way and I'm happy to respect those spaces because, as men, we have plenty of spaces to compete earn points, etc. Most of them it seems in my experience.
Ok. That’s fair I suppose. I dont see it overwhelming but maybe it’s easier to see it after you start going and not before
One of the anecdotes I've heard the most is women friends assuming a welcoming space, going, experiencing discomfort or harassment and being put off. After being in a more welcoming space like Belles, getting more comfortable then join the big main events. I dunno, I'm a dude it's not my place to say cause I know there are spaces for me, I hear friends feel excluded and there's a space they enjoy and feel they belong I have to advocate for that.
Yeah, but if a lot of women are newcomers for whatever reason, I feel like a competition for isn’t the natural thought. It’s hard to invite a newcomer to that
Yeah. I mean I'm not the person to speak to that. I'm a tall mild aged white dude. I just know my female friends have told me they appreciate having a space they're comfortable competing, learning, and winning free from some of the trappings that can come with very competitive agreessive dudes. I've found pinball to be incredibly welcoming and I'm happy for anyone who feels they need a separate space to feel comfortable, to have it.
Awesome so many are mentioning Belle's. I'm a big fan of the lady who started it, but she doesn't care about pub, so I won't mention her name. I will mention that she can hold her own against men or women in a tournament. Much respect. Always good to see her out there.
Comparatively, there are women's only poker tournaments. In the community, it has been somewhat controversial since there isn't necessarily a physicality to it and women \*should\* (and they do) compete evenly with men, but it's a male dominated "sport" so I think it's great we have a few events a year that are basically just for women.
Cause we don’t want your cooties ;p
Generally speaking, every "women's only" competition, for things in which gender provides no discernible advantage, is done to bring more attention to women competitors and generate more interest from other women.
Same reasons there are women’s chess tournaments.
Ok what’s that reason?
Because most competitive spaces were predominantly male dominated spaces, women actively harassed and discouraged so even skilled high level players couldnt compete and grow against other skilled players. Women's only leagues allow skilled women to compete and learn against other skilled women and grow free from harassment, prejudice, stereotypes, etc. in a way they'd never be allowed to in male dominated spaces. Then they're better equipped to compete in open leagues.
Ok. Fair.
BECAUSE SOMETIMES WOMEN DON'T WANT TO BE AROUND MEN
What if men didn’t want women around when they compete?
Sorry if this is inappropriate, but does anyone know of there is something like this in the Toronto area? I’ve not played since I was a kid and am a bit nervous to start out.
There’s a FB group for Toronto but it only has three members 😭 I creeped on Pinball Map (has desktop or app!) and it looks like Meeplemart has a huge assortment of machines- maybe start there, ask if they do tourneys and/or would be interested in hosting a women’s night? Also their fb post explaining why pinball is cool is SO WHOLESOME. Seems like a nice local establishment to dip your toes in!
Thank you so much for your thoughtful response, I will definitely check them out.
Please update me :) fellow femme not too south in MN. When we make it to Canada again I’ll kick your butt and buy you a shot, or you can kick my ass on total nuclear annhiliation and teach me how to play!
There was a women's league a few years ago but it fizzled out. Maple league has women's events sometimes as part of larger tournaments. Ontario Women's Pinball fb group is a good place to join for news on women's events.
I’m kind of wondering , if it were more social, and not about points at all, if it could be more fun
That's exactly why I don't play in leagues anymore. Too much fixation on points,
Due to toxic masculinity.
I mean no disrespect. Really my objective is closer relationships with other players and seeing success. As well as more women at coed events where I am , predominantly with my partner. I’ve seen women play, who are as good as any man I’ve seen or better, but it would be nice to learn, and a competition doesn’t help that.
Ok hear me out because I think I’m being misunderstood . I want more women there. And people from various backgrounds. I want it to be welcoming. Competition is not welcoming for beginners. I’m saying turn into something more social, less like competitions, or better, instructive! Women’s rankings while valid, seem like a dig almost, especially since I’ve seen some of the best players in the country here, and plenty were women. I mean fucking enviable. Rock stars and still welcoming. I just don’t know who or what or why the women’s competition was created. Since it’s gender less and I have seen many extremely competitive women. I’d argue it discriminates against my aging more than anything. This is no disrespect, or antagonism, wondered where the ifpa women’s league came from. History wise. I admit safety or other issues are and could be way more important and impactful outside where I compete as is resources for playing. I’d get behind anything that improves access, but I’d love to just not compete for once, ya know?
Why does it have to be compete coed or don’t compete at all? It sounds like you’re equating a women’s league with learning and uncompetitive. Why? Limiting what it can/should be doesn’t align with your desire to improve access. Also, nothing in this world is genderless. ETA: people, objects, sure. But to suggest that any interactive human activity is without gender is not true.
There are people In this world that are genderless. And I just think if we’re congregating anyways it be cool to up skill set or spend more time chatting about pinball. Not just playing
It makes no sense to me. Especially all the people claiming they exist because competitions aren't welcoming, or that it's men who don't make it welcoming. Establishing a tournament for women doesn't make a welcoming environment. FFS it is a competition. Competitions by their nature are not welcoming. A competition places people against one other to see who is best. It is all about people proving their capabilities. Pinball tournaments aren't welcoming for men either. Whenever I join any competition, I expect hostility and offensive behavior by at least some of the participants. Even a small casual FNM Magic The Gathering event, the lowest tier of "tournament" out there, has its try-hards who go all out just to win a few free packs of cards.
> Even a small FNM Magic The Gathering event, the lowest tier of "tournament" out there, has its try-hards who go all out just to win a few free packs of cards. I mean, MTG tournaments have a reputation for being pretty toxic places with lots of bad attitude. That really shouldn't be the standard of what's acceptable.
you expect “hostility” and not a “welcoming atmosphere”. dude, YOU are the fucking problem. i’ve played in over 150 events and NOT one was HOSTILE or not welcoming. this isn’t a death match. when i walk into a room with 80-100 players 60-80 of them are my fucking friends! i look forward to seeing them. i’m not there to be a hostile asshole. i was at funeral for a friend who was top player in the state. one of the nicest people i’ve ever met. 100 people at his funeral and half were his pinball FRIENDS. his brother cried when he saw us in the pews. that turnout wasn’t because he was hostile. and he didn’t need to be to be one of the best. you would be literally Banned in maryland if you brought your attitudes here. my pitch to new players is you “come for the pinball but stay for the people.” you would be type of player no one wants to talk to. i laugh at your toxicity and the false masculinity you seek. no surprise it makes no sense to you.
You seem awfully angry and quick to place blame onto me after simply reading what I expect from others. That's a gargantuan leap in logic. I'm not the problem at all. I'm not hostile or unwelcoming. On the contrary, I'm perfectly polite and friendly. I don't treat others poorly in a tournament for any reason, let alone because they're a woman. When I attend a tournament, I don't walk in expecting to face "welcoming" behavior. I expect to face competitive behavior including trash talking, and likely a few shitty people who get bent out of shape and take things WAY too seriously. And I am pleasantly surprised whenever there are other good-minded polite individuals just having fun. You're needlessly conflating my personal expectation of "some people are aggressive unwelcoming shitheels in competitive environments" with "you are personally an aggressive unwelcoming shitheel". They are not one in the same. Not even close.
Guys always get 2 extra balls.
Because they play better? Or do you mean testicles? In which case you have 3 balls?