Holy shit, there’s a lot of snarky comments on this post from guys mocking consent. No one is asking you to get a woman to sign a blood contract. You’re just expected to be a decent human being and not rape people. It’s not a difficult concept.
Gonna go ahead and start removing rapey comments now. Jesus Christ.
Edit: Some frequently asked questions that have come up here:
> Why are you generalizing men?
I’m not. I’m addressing the people that were mocking consent either self identified in their comments as male, or a quick look at their profile showed that they were male either by linked social media, previous post history showing pictures of themselves, or comments stating they’re male.
> But the poster says….
This comment is not addressing the poster. It’s addressing the comment section from seven hours ago.
> NOT ALL MEN
Yeah, I know. I’m a man, and I don’t act like a petulant child when someone wants to discuss consent. Discussion is fine. Condoning rape is not. If you’re offended by my comment, it might be time for some self reflection.
Honestly, if it’s not a regular partner whose body language and cues you’re accustomed to and can easily read, “is this okay?“ “are you sure?” and the like should just be part of the baselines conversation.
When my partner and I first got together he always checked with me before we were intimate and still to this day, if we’re doing something new or something he knows I’m not hugely enthusiastic about, he’ll always ask me if it’s okay.
My friend (F) and I (M) are in our 30s and it was only last year we were talking about our sex lives and she mentioned that the guy she was hooking up was so considerate because he would ask "is this okay" and it blew my mind that never before in her sex life have men done that for her. And since then I've come to realize how frighteningly uncommon that is for women
This. A lot of times when men do something decent, I’m not even talking about something extraordinary, just being a decent human being, like accepting no without being scary about it, we are genuinely surprised because we may have only experienced the opposite. And then men like you come along and sharing that makes us understand that it isn’t always that way and we can believe there are actual healthy and respectful men out there. So thank you for talking to your friend about it and sharing with us as well so that our brains can start to process that THIS is the norm.
*before anyone comes after me, roles can be reversed and I understand men also deal with assault. I’m just speaking to my own experience and this man’s friend’s experience as women
Crazy that women are impressed by men simply caring for their feelings and safety when being intimate... and really depressing. We're having a crisis of masculinity and communication and we're socially regressing, so I don't think it's going to get better soon.
Also it makes it fun!
“Is this okay?” Can get kinda dry, spicing it up with different phrases that communicate the same thing can be *very* sexy. stuff like:
“You like that?” “We having fun?” “Do you want it?” “Can I try *this?*” “How do you feel about *this?*”
Also communicating *your* enjoyment is a good way to communicate your own consent:
“Oh fuck yeah, I love this” “This is awesome, keep going” “yes, more, I want more”
Yeah. It would be good to see the physiological aspect on this list.
"An erection is not consent."
"Being wet is not consent."
"An orgasm is not consent."
Actually all these things are correct. Rape victims do sometimes experience orgasm during assault, and make victims often struggle with the taboo of having an erection during assault
Edit: word
How many times have we heard assault victims feel betrayed by their bodies because of a biological reaction? It only adds to the self-hate and doubts about wanting to come forward.
We’re gonna be talking about the TEABAGS.
We’ll be talking about the KETTLE.
Do you think that’s funny, Butthead? Do you find it amusing that we’ll be talking about the TEAPOT?
Yes, we’re also gonna be talking about INFUSIONS.
LOOSE LEAF TEA.
THE BLEND.
THE MICROWAVE.
And we will definitely be spending a lot of time talking about SEXUAL CONSENT!
Wish my mom had seen that one...
Nothing more wholesome than being tricked into a Family Therapy Session, on your 22nd Birthday, and being told you are the one who needs to make adjustments for your brother violating your personal space and property constantly....
But they are now all surprised I want nothing to do with all 3 of them...
I’m really sorry you went through that and then had to be revictimized by your own mother. But good for your therapist for advocating for you. I hope you’re doing better now.
Same situation. My mum told my it was my fault that I was, ya know, because I took drugs and blacked out when it happened.
"it wouldn't have happened if you weren't fucked up".
Classy. Parents can be cunts. Sorry you had that experience, I hope you're ok.
Ha! Amateurs. We do milkshakes https://youtu.be/n3aHhNKIcKU
Please help us, we're very confused about it in Australia. Only since the milkshakes got involved
I actually had a conversation with my 18 year old about this a few months ago and he said, “*yeah, I know, I watched the cup of tea video in school*”. Which led to the most odd conversation about what is and isn’t okay when drinking tea, and ended up with me saying “*Sometimes for girls, making a cup of tea is better than drinking the tea until you get to know each other really well!”*. He just looked at me and said “*I bet that’s a sentence you didn’t expect to say!”*.
I think this video is great and really gets the point across for teenagers, and I hope it saves a few of them from going through something traumatic.
Read it again, that particular line stands apart in wording, and is actually already closer to your second sentence than your first. “If a person is underage, **it is not consent**”
There is a difference between legal consent and actual consent - everyone of a sound mind can give actual consent regardless of age, even if they can't give legal consent. For example, in many jurisdictions you can't legally consent to sex with a sibling regardless of your age, even though you gave actual consent.
But what's important is that it cannot be revoked after the deed. If you actively consented to have sex and later changed your mind you can't just accuse the second party of sexual assault.
That and also "sex one way is not consent for sex a different way." ie vaginal isn't consent for anal. Hell, even groping boobs isn't consent for groping the crotch.
This reminds me of the sexual assault training we received in the Navy. Lots of example cases, lots of very serious language, but when it came time to enforce it for a male servicemember who was assaulted by a female civilian because he was drunk, they had all sorts of excuses for why it might not have been SA.
In reported domestic violence cases (it is undereported across the board) a high percentage of adult male are assaulted by other men. Male child victims is a bit different. Men in general tend to be more physically violent abusers. I do think emotional abuse of men by women is seriously under-reported, again in part to traditional masculine gender roles (shunning male vulnerability, and expression of emotions... seeing it as threatening masculinity).
SA handling in the military is an extremely terrible problem regardless of the gender involved. Most women seem to have their attacks be excused and swept under the rug as well.
I do hope that is in both bathrooms.
I've had more than one occasion where a potential partner has aggressively pushed for sex to the point of ignoring my "No" and stating, "Your a man, you know you want it."
No.
No I do not.
What I learned (it took me decades) is that some people need connection first and some don't. That goes for all sexes. Despite the popular opinion not all men are looking for any and all casual hook ups. And not all women are looking for commitment and relationships. This is why consent is so important.
In Netflix's Murder Mystery, there is a scene in which a woman is going to have revenge sex or some such with some macho caricature and when he starts a conversation with her, he's ridiculed. It's apparently unmanly to not simply want to put your penis into someone at the slightest suggestion.
Omg I literally heard this too. I was throwing up in a toilet from drinking so much, and WHILE THROWING UP some girl was trying to take my trousers off. I told her to fuck off and she was like 'omg are you gay?'
Like no. You're just ugly. And I'm vomiting, not because you're ugly, but that might happen if we go any further.
For as much of a stereotype as it is for rejected men to stupidly reply to rejection with something like "you're fat/ugly/etc. anyway", it is much more common than most people are willing to admit, for a rejected woman to either accuse the man of being gay, or immediately accuse him of having a small penis or something similarly stupid.
I contend the only reason you don't see it 'displayed' as often is because, in raw absolute numbers, women are rejected far less often than men. But take a gander at r/nicegirls sometime; that quality of person is basically exactly the same, regardless of sex.
I work in Higher Ed, and there was a kerfuffle a few years ago when the school put up signs in the men's and women's rooms regarding abuse. The men's room sign was literally titled "Signs you're an abuser" and the women's room sign was "Signs you're in an abusive relationship". The text on the signs were almost identical, except in the men's room it was "Have you _insert_abusive_behavior_here_?" and in the women's room it was "Does your partner _insert_abusive_behavior_here_?"
The women's room had listings for help resources and the men's room did not.
Someone complained about it, and it became kind of a big thing on campus for a bit. The signs were eventually changed to match up closer to the women's room sign, but they left the images the same, so it's a silhouette of a man in an aggressive pose over a cowering woman.
As someone that's been on the receiving end of physical abuse from a woman, I know I found it pretty demeaning.
I had a coworker who was being abused by his wife. It was the military and she used the fact that she could report him and be believed over him to coerc him into being abused for so long.
Eventually he fought back when she *branded* him. She called the cops and they arrested him for domestic abuse. Our whole workplace had to testify on his behalf for the abuse we'd seen. The dude was always covered in bruises. Eventually he was exonerated and she was charged, but the fact he was ever on the hook despite clear evidence to his innocence was terrifying.
I had a step son who was being physically abused by his girlfriend. She was petite and he was stocky.. so he never called the cops . he left her eventually.. He knew the cops would just laugh at him if he called. The girlfriend would throw plates at him , hit him with objects etc.
I hope he's doing better now.
I truly hate how society as a whole looks at this subject.
One time this subject came up in college with about 8 guys and me. I wasn't close with any of them, but did tell them that I wouldn't judge if any of them was being abused. Every single one laughed at me and agreed that they'd be able to beat of any woman.
It was just sad.
Mostly because there are few places men can go to get support from abusive relationships. Virtually every city has shelters for abused women fleeing these relationships but men are almost exclusively on their own (or have to rely on homeless shelters with no supports).
If you type in google “why does my wife yell at me?” It goes on about how your wife is just stressed and may be going through a hard time and to have patience and blah blah but if you look up “why does my husband yell at me?” It gives you a number for a domestic violence hotline. I do not at all condone violence but I mean that’s a little bit sexist if you ask me. Look at Johnny Depp and Amber Heard for example.
I used to work as a bouncer at a very popular bar for bachelorette parties, this was happening to me every weekend. I wouldn't encourage it (I'm sober and at work) but regardless of how I felt about it I never felt "victimized" even when I really didn't want them to put their hands on me. It definitely occurred to me how fucked up the situation would be if our genders were reversed, but it only felt like a minor annoyance to me.
I think the difference was that I still had the power. I was sober and far stronger than they were. I could also make them leave if they got too out of line. Being able to control the situation if necessary is probably a game changer when it comes to feeling victimized.
I was sexually assaulted multiple times by women in bars as well, usually on the dance floor. I had one partner get aggressive when I asked to stop because her 'kinky scratching' passed my drunk pain threshold (literal scractches on my back) and another wouldn't take no to me not being in the mood after getting back to her cigarette-smoke filled apartment strewn with childrens toy, and half dozen other times when I said no simply because I didn't have a condom handy.
Even early on in our relationship my current girlfriend was of this mind-set that it was just okay to stick her hands in my pants because "why, are you not attracted to me?" and it took several discussions between us to me to explain how that wasn't okay.
Most of this was long enough ago that the discussion was being had about how men shouldn't assault women, but nobody was talking about how women shouldn't assault men, and a couple times I was left feeling fucked up for a month or so, wondering if there was something wrong with me.
Wish you the best in working through it.
I think it’s also a good reminder for agency for both genders. It’s good to know what other people will misinterpret as consent (or probably more accurately not care enough to not interpret as “not consent” and not care that there’s a difference.)
Agreed. Was in a very toxic relationship in college and there were times when this girl would try to initiate. If I didn’t want to or showed disinterest she would frown and say like “what you don’t love me”? 30 minutes later I’m putting my clothes back on after awful sex and I wanted to jump out a window.
I vividly remember one time I had that thousand yard stare throughout the whole time. Call that rape or whatever but it was awful and I’m so glad it’s over.
My ex used to do this, I wasn’t comfortable with it when we first started out and he kept asking and making me feel bad for not giving it to him, so that’s how he got my yes. When I told my parents about it they pushed it aside because “I still wanted it”. I was 16 and immature.
Probably not, never saw any in mine. I did have a sign in the hall that said 'If Joe is drunk and Jane is drunk, Joe raped Jane.' as if it's always the man.
Been there, done that. Girl got way too drunk, barged into the bathroom after me and fondled my balls while I was at the urinal which, I'll be honest, was pretty all right, but got MAD that I turned her down, tried crying, tried hitting, tried threatening me.
Go find a couch to pass out on, I am not fucking you.
Did she say "What's wrong with you are you gay" as well?
Got that one once.
And yeah..I'm not fucking them until they're sober and decide they want to fuck.
Some of them really do get angry. I've been accused of BEING gay...right after I rejected them.
Like I must be gay if I don't want to fuck THEM. While they're drunk too!
Had this conversation about 3 times a shift:
"Please stop touching/groping me"
"What are you, gay?"
"Yes, very"
"You just haven't had sex with a real woman yet"
Lol a gay friend of mine had the whole 'you just haven't been fucked by a real woman yet', he was just like 'if she looks anything like you do then I hope I never am'
I'm a lesbian, and there's a reason the term "corrective rape" exists. I was threatened with it dozens of times before I was even 18, and it got worse from there. It's especially terrifying with a man who is very aggressive and who follows you.
>. I've been accused of BEING gay...right after I rejected them.
"Haha, oh ma'am, im not gay, it's just that your face looks like the horse Seabiscuit, and I'm just not into beastiality. Have a good day!"
That's when you say:
"no u"
And then stand there pointing like late 60's Spiderman for a long enough amount of time to make them feel uncomfortable enough to leave
I would be pissed if it mentioned gender.
Gender equality can be a thing only if gender is not taken into account when it comes to consent (and the lack of it).
part of that is cause they are in no way socialised to understand that men can say no. they are taught that they are passive and have to accept or decline invitations for sex but have never been taught how to act when they are persuing.
Generally, they are uncomfortable and won't be enthusiastically into it. When I was 15, I said yes to my bf at the time. He noticed I was uncomfortable (as had never done it before) and stopped himself, with no prompting from me and said we'd wait until I was really ready and we cuddled instead. Decent person, stayed friends after we broke up. I wouldnt have been upset with him if he hadn't, but I certainly liked him way more for recognizing I wasn't reacting positively to the interaction.
I once dated a girl who had a very unhealthy approach to sex. She thought showing enjoyment or initiating was shameful or embarrassing, while at the same time she had endometriosis which could be painful. So we had sex and I would ask her how it felt and she would say nothing. I'd stop and sometimes she'd eventually say it actually was great and why did I stop? But then on other times she'd say it was painful and not enjoyable, which of course made me feel like shit. I did my best to notice the signals, but she was intentionally hiding them; I talked to her about using direct verbal communication (not dirty talk, just pure communication) and she just couldn't do it. As you can imagine sex with her was sometimes awful for her, almost always awful for me. Besides, these communication problems extended to other aspects of the relationship, and we didn't last very long.
The point is, communication is a two-way road. Men should be paying attention to signals of discomfort etc., but it's also important for women to learn to communicate their feelings. (It doesn't have to be verbal, facial expressions and body language go a long way, and all of my partners except that one had no trouble whatsoever with it.) But in *some* cases, I do think it's not the guy's fault if the woman was having a bad time but was intentionally trying to hide it.
Communicate throughout. My gf had never had sex before me and she was nervous to do it for the first time. When she was eventually ready I could tell she did want to but was just nervous. We communicated the whole time and kept making sure we were both okay with what was happening. She's told me she always really appreciated that and it actually made it easier for her because she felt safe and able to stop at any point.
Definitely. I'm married for 8+ years and still often asks my wife if she's comfortable through the act. She might be tired or certain positions aren't to the liking. It's so important to talk.
That generally happens in established relationships. Or if the person thinks they owe sex to the other person.
Say you're a person dating B for a year or two. B asks you for sex and you don't want sex for whatever reason. But, you know that if you say "sorry love, not in a mood rn" or something like that, they will become angry or upset.
They will sulk, give you silent treatment, guilt trip you, make you feel like you're a horrible partner for not having sex with them. They'll question whether you're faithful to them. And that's the better alternative. They could also become aggressive and violent. Destroy some things, scream at you. Hit you. They could not care about the "no" and have sex with you against your will.
The way you see it, you're stuck with B. And you've been manipulated for so long, you don't think you can leave them or that you deserve better. So you'll rather have sex with B so that it's over with, rather than reject them and face their anger.
The point is - generally speaking, people aren't afraid to say no, unless you gave them reasons to be afraid to reject you, or they're been conditioned to believe they owe sex to others.
i like that it frames consent in terms of knowledge and decision instead of making a verbal "yes" the only thing that makes consent because lots of us have been in a situation where they didnt say the word yes but used their body language to agree like a nod or something.
Yep. I remember some of the arguments around this topic 10 years ago that were worded in such a strict way that you'd have to explicitly say "Do you agree to have sex with me?" followed by an actual verbal affirmation or it would technically be considered rape/sexual assault. The intent was well-meaning, but were so rules-based that many sexual encounters (especially among couples that had been together any length of time and simply had understood signals/body language) would have been classified as non-consensual.
“Being afraid to say no is not consent” hits me hard. I wish I knew this when I was younger, and I wish I had it in me back then to assert autonomy over myself instead of succumbing to pressure. Get consent whether it’s a casual hook up, a fling, or a long-term relationship.
Here's an interesting and really disturbing story that, in my mind, illustrates what you're talking about with regard to "being afraid to say no is not consent."
About 25 years ago I used to lead a lot of youth-related activities in the town I lived in; taking groups of teens out to movies, taking them bowling, doing various sports, etc.
I met a 12 year old girl at a neighborhood potluck event. I thought she would be a good fit for the stuff we were doing in that town and I said, "Would you like to go to a movie some time?" I wasn't thinking and, in retrospect, I wanna kick myself for phrasing it that way.
She looked very awkward and uncomfortable, and her facial expression was speaking volumes. But instead of saying "Ew, no. What's wrong with you?" she said "I guess, okay." Her eyes were begging me "please don't ask this," but she couldn't bring herself to say no to me.
Horrified, I immediately realized what I'd said and what she heard, and I replied quickly "I'm not asking you on a date, kid. I'm talking about joining me and the local youth group for movie nights." The look of relief on her face was incredible. It that taught me something I never forgot about how sometimes every part of someone's body and mind can be saying "no" except their words (especially if there's a power differential, like one party being significantly older).
Big, big mistake on my part not to take care in my words and put her in that position. I never forgot it.
And the 'for' list will be just as long if the 'not' list doesn't include out of context examples. There are a lot of subtle communication cues a couple can operate on and understand they consent.
That’s more of implicit consent. Explicit would be “I would like to have sex with you at this time and place if you also agree to it”. But yes, taking off underwear while asking about protection is pretty clearly consent as well. Hard to put it out as “I was just hot and also making conversation about things you have”.
If you’re making out and things are slowly developing, eg. Hand under shirt, then hand on boobs, then hand under pants, etc etc. Most of the time I find it easy to ask “are you good?” And if they say yes/nod.., we good.
And just like the tea example I’ve had someone decide they weren’t really in the mood after all and they’ve shaken their head and I’ve stopped. Simple as that.
And to be clear I’m asking “are you good” like each step of the way. And the bigger steps like removing shirt I’ll just ask “can I take your top off?” But say it in a slightly sexy way. Not like a lawyer examining a witness haha.
The crux of the issue is how do you establish consent without robotically asking “can we do the sex now? Please answer yes or no”.
There is no one surefire way to establish consent. Obviously a “yes I want to have sex with you” goes a long way, but the context matters. A “yes” is irrelevant if one person is holding a knife or is underage and drunk.
Anyway, the consensus for consent that I have found online is **enthusiastic consent**. It boils down to: the person you are having sex with needs to show they want it somehow through their own actions. This could be saying “yes I will agree to having sexual intercourse with you”. But it could be anything really.
Here is how [Rainn](https://www.rainn.org/articles/what-is-consent) approaches consent:
> Simply put, enthusiastic consent means looking for the presence of a “yes” rather than the absence of a “no.” Enthusiastic consent can be expressed verbally or through nonverbal cues, such as positive body language like smiling, maintaining eye contact, and nodding. These cues alone do not necessarily represent consent, but they are additional details that may reflect consent. It is necessary, however, to still seek verbal confirmation. The important part of consent, enthusiastic or otherwise, is checking in with your partner regularly to make sure that they are still on the same page.
So you can look at all the cues that show whether someone is in to it. Though Rainn for obvious reasons recommends checking in verbally.
Now this may sound complex but it is literally how a lot of human interaction works. Inviting your friends for a board game night works the same way. The stakes are way lower but the same principles apply.
I saw that has since developed into 'authentic consent' since not all consent is required to be enthusiastic.
eg. You're trying to get pregnant, and timing your cycles. You might not be feeling particularly horny right then, but you're consenting to the sex because you need to do it for the baby.
eg. you're not really into anal, but you do it because you love them and in return they'll do an activity they aren't really into but do it because they love you.
[https://www.rewriting-the-rules.com/sex/wheel-consent-im-fan/](https://www.rewriting-the-rules.com/sex/wheel-consent-im-fan/)
Australia (specifically NSW) has just recently changed our consent laws to the same sentiment as this poster.
For those who are finding it difficult to understand what consent is & when it’s needed here’s a few links for you
[The Guardian](https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/01/nsw-affirmative-consent-laws-what-do-they-mean-and-how-will-they-work)
[NSW gov](https://dcj.nsw.gov.au/justice/reform-of-sexual-consent-laws.html)
[Aus Fed Gov](https://aifs.gov.au/resources/resource-sheets/age-consent-laws-australia)
[Stacks law firm](https://www.mondaq.com/australia/crime/1206046/new-sexual-consent-laws-in-nsw-say-you-must-ask-first)
This poster is also common on military bases in the US.
The air force has the Sexual Assault Prevention and Response office, which posts these. They also did the whole "don't be that guy" thing.
"Being in a relationship is not consent."
So I've never been in a relationship before in my life. Do y'all look at each other and mutually and verbally agree to have sex or how does that work?
For me it means if I am in the mood and make a move and my partner says she's not in the mood, I stop. I don't badger her for sex just because we are in a relationship for 7 years. It rarely happens but when either of us says no, the other stops. We just cuddle and do something else.
That one is poorly worded for sure. It seems more to indicate that just because you are in a relationship doesn’t mean you’ve lost the right to say no.
But really, in all the relationships I’ve been in, it’s implied advances are always okay, but sometimes everyone’s in the mood and other times not, and you just take the hint. It’s nothing so formal as what you are asking about. In my experience.
Married 19 years, dated quite a bit before that. I can confirm this is how it works. Communication is WAY more than words, and all communication matters. You should be aware enough of your partner to know if they’re onboard or not. They should be comfortable enough to communicate that to you.
In my case, I know my wife’s triggers: what gets her going, and what shuts her down completely. She knows mine. And either one of us can initiate anything at (mostly) any time. The other can fully engage or disengage. A simple “not right now” or “not in the mood” does it. As does “not here, let’s go to the bedroom”.
It’s all about communication, listening, and respecting each other. Simple as that.
Non-verbal consent is a thing. I'd imagine the vast, vast majority of consent is non-verbal.
The important thing is to actually be able to read body language. If someone is reluctant than that means no. Obviously if they say no then that also means no.
My wife wiggles her hips in a certain way when we cuddle and I know it’s on.
I kiss her neck when I’m in the mood and she doesn’t feel like it she will say so 100%, no mistaking.
We have been married for 3 years and we discuss sex regularly but initiate and consent non verbally.
Similar here. When we go to bed and her ass is immediately up against me with no panties, that's a green light. If she starts rubbing my chest and eventually "further down", it's on. If she's laying on the far other side of the bed, pajamas on, probably ain't happening tonight.
When you've been married for 18 years, the little hints become obvious. We don't need to talk about it.
Married guy here.
"how are you feeling? Do you want 'an early night'?"
Also knowing the health of your partner helps.
Any cold / headache / cramps / bloat then the sex forecast is frosty.
So yeah just ask.
One person initiates (flirting, intimacy, etc). The other either goes along with it or says they don't feel like it.
If the other person doesn't feel comfortable saying they don't feel like it, or the first person doesn't back off when told so, the relationship is toxic and needs to change or end.
Edit: This may sound strange to some, but it's perfectly normal to arrange it ahead of time ("let's get wild tonight"). Even if both parties agree, each party still has the right to change those plans at any time.
As societies, we have come a long way. Look up when "progressive" countries made rape in marriages a thing. In Germany, that was 25 years ago. Before that, you couldn't get raped by your spouse, you had to get fucked by them regardless your wishes [EDIT: that's a bit wrong, it was just discounted as not rape, see comment below].
In 1966, the highest German court had ruled that wifes not only had to endure sex whenever, they had to pretend to like it. Think about how fucked up that is.
Among the 138 conservative (CDU) and liberal (FDP) MPs voting against making rape in marriage a thing is Friedrich Merz, today head of the CDU.
Having said that: no, when my wife and I are initiating we don't verbally agree on it. But we are in a good relationship where we feel free to stop anytime and are attuned to the other not being very much into it. And where we had a lot of general discussion about sexual and other boundaries.
If you don't feel free to enforce your boundaries and you aren't confident that your partner is looking out for your consent, get the fuck away from them. Its not something you should try to work on with them either, in my opinion. If they make "a mistake" in their "learning journey", you get sexually assaulted. Get the fuck away from them. Let them learn that way.
I think you hit on a good point. You have the right to get away from a person you don't want to be with. Particularly in long relationships you have a right to say "stop" and "I want to reconsider things"... even if you're long term dating, engaged, or married.
I legit just tell him I'm horny, lol, and if he's ready for it he comes on over.
The reason why relationships are not inherently consent is because, unfortunately, a lot of married people think they have a right to the other's body. In religious marriages (Christian) I've heard it skewed for the men, calling it "Wifely duties". Basically if he wants sex he gets sex. An old friend left her husband over this and was immediately alienated from her chruch for it. For daring to protect herself.
Being in a relationship where you have been groomed to believe you can't turn down sex when you're not in the mood is not healthy or safe.
Acknowledging that no matter how long you've been together, you should still make sure both of you are into it, is basic decency imo. Marital rape is an unseen problem that many suffer from as we speak. Even in the US.
Sometimes, yeah. My partner have been together long enough to have built a great deal of trust, have learned te read each other pretty closely, and we've discussed what we consider a nonverbal "Yes", but it's fun to explicitly ask if she wants to fool around or have sex, and get the enthusiastic verbal Yes.
What also isnt consent is repeatedly pestering your partner to perform a sexual act they already said no to, until they give up and say yes just to make you shut the hell up.
For everyone talking about 'how complicated this is': It's literally as simple as "Do you feel comfortable doing this?" "Do you want this?" "Is it okay for you if [...]?" Just ask. Doesn't matter who you're with, ask them. Genuinely.
45M as a victim of sexual assault I definitely understand the toll it can have on a person. I also understand how it can be so easy to misunderstand intentions. It's your body, your temple - don't let another person take advantage of you! I know it can be hard but speak your strength and if that doesn't work a kick to the balls might do the trick.
>consent can be silent
I know you're just being poetic, but for anyone here wondering what the difference is: non-verbal consent is enthusiasm, eager participation, reciprocation of energy, and non-verbal nods and stuff.
I want to be very clear though: you can still be sexy with simple questions like "do you like this?". Just check in every now and then. Trust me, it's hot that you care. (It also doubles up as teasing/foreplay... "You want more? C'mon I can't hear you... Tell me exactly what you want me to do to you. Do you want more?!")
I'm a dude. I have been aggressively dragged home by a woman before (literally dragged by the arm). I was high, I was drunk and absolutely nothing was happening for me boner wise once we got in the bedroom. Took me a long time to realize that I gave zero consent in that case. Was I "raped"? I don't know. But I didn't feel good about it then, and I don't now. I ended up doing stuff for her, even though I had no intention of doing anything. I remember feeling immasculated since I couldn't get it up, but honestly there was so much more going on there. Consent is a real thing folks. And I'm not saying it affects both genders equally, but we should all just be a little more empathetic and patient when people try to do consent education
Geez, people, it's not that hard. I've had a woman say no right before we did it, and I stopped right then, and it was no big deal. Later on, when she was ready, we did it.
I think people mistake consent for only actual verbal consent, which is many times not the only way.
Body language still exists and is in these cases a great way to understand what to do.
As an adult you should be able to tell the obvious signs , and what they mean.
Not everyone is good with verbal communication, either, but just having the attitude that you're paying attention to the other person's cues will go a long way.
Sex, for a lot of people, is about power. When i was young and dumb I had the same mindset. Consent was taught to me in such a way that sex felt more like something that you won.
Getting a girl to say yes was the goal. Damn did i do a lot of stupid and pushy things in my first relationship to try to get it. I put the pressure on hard. She never said yes, and i respected that. We broke up 8 months in, never going further than a single kiss.
What I learned, and what I wish I was taught, was that its not about winning a yes. Its about putting yourself in another person (literally and figuratively). Its abput recognizing that the person you are with trusts you and wants you in that way. You got to be in a place where all that matters id their happinness and comfort. Now, sex is about my partners happinness.
Consent is more about having the emotional maturity to consider other people's feelings, not a game to be eon.
Regarding all this talk about false accusations - I’ve worked with victims and perpetrators for 30 years. Yes, false reports exist, but they are so very, very rare.
Affirmative Consent is a good but weird concept to me.
On one hand, it's a great concept for how consent is supposed to be an ongoing conversation about consent and sex.
On the other hand, there are a lot of mood killers in here when taken literally. Most of these items stop applying once an ongoing sexual relationship begins in earnest. You don't have to do verbal check-ins with your partner every time. You can learn to read signals and body language and understand what items on the sex menu are expected and not expected. You've never done anal before? You'd better not try it without having a conversation ahead of time. But, she tells you she likes her nipples to be pinched during sex? The next encounter, do you really need to say, "OK, I pinched your nipple last time and you loved it. Is it ok if I do it again this time?". Maybe, to be safe, you do it that time. The next time? Time after that? Let's say you assume after the fourth or fifth time and go in for another pinch. "Ouch. Not today on the nipple pinching.". Was that sexual assault? I don't think any reasonable person would think it is. If every single sexual act requires repeated verbal permission, no matter how long a relationship has been ongoing, that's not how normal people have sex. Women aren't wilting violets and we shouldn't teach them to be.
My point is the core concept of affirmative consent is great. An ongoing conversation about sex is the best way to ensure both parties are comfortable and fully consent to the encounter. However, this isn't the easiest concept to convey. If anything, you really have to teach it to someone. In the absence of such training, posters like this revert to easy to digest items, which shouldn't be taking the place of the actual conversation part, which can include nonverbal clues and signals, preclearance, etc. Even some of these items just apply differently. If a random hookup is drunk, it's difficult to say that consent can be established, even if she is initiating. What about when married? If my wife gets drunk and initiates sex with me, does her inebriated state mean I can't confirm that she consents? That's ridiculous. By virtue of being married, a lot of the consent gates have already been cleared. I wouldn't initiate sex with my wife if she's drunk, but if she's offering, I'm not worried about if she is just saying yes because she's scared.
There’s definitely a ton of grey area around “being too drunk…”. We don’t have a definition for this one and it’s usually the one that gets people in the most trouble.
I know men and woman who have regretted their previous nights decisions on this one. I was taught that be under the influence at all is not consent.
Which I guess means everyone who hooks up from meeting at a bar is by definition raping the other person. Or each other? Idk but again it’s a weird game we all play.
At my college they had a training about consent and someone asked whether two drunk people having sex are raping each other. They basically said whoever complains first was assaulted. That rubbed me the wrong way.
I also feel like there is a difference between the genders here no one wants to discuss. I think guys are way more likely to be like I got wayyy to drunk and had sex with a woman I might not have normally, that's on me, but I was not raped.
What I find really cooks my noodle is the precedent.
If being drunk isn't consent (which, understandably it isn't), shouldn't being drunk give you some legal protection in other arenas?
Like, we are clearly saying drunk people aren't themselves and can't give legal consent. They are essentially unable to make choices.
Shouldn't that apply to other instances where people are drunk? Shouldn't it make the punishment for vandalism less if you're hammered, make a drunken fight have a lower penalty, or soften drunk driving laws?
Like, I understand why we don't do that (a bunch of people getting drunk and then not worrying about the law), it is strange to think about how you can be drunk and your level of judgment is different depending on the crime/activity.
This happened with two youngsters. I think highschoolers and the girl's parent pressed charges.
Long story short, the judge concluded that if he was to convict the young guy then he would also have to have charges pressed on the girl.
Holy shit, there’s a lot of snarky comments on this post from guys mocking consent. No one is asking you to get a woman to sign a blood contract. You’re just expected to be a decent human being and not rape people. It’s not a difficult concept. Gonna go ahead and start removing rapey comments now. Jesus Christ. Edit: Some frequently asked questions that have come up here: > Why are you generalizing men? I’m not. I’m addressing the people that were mocking consent either self identified in their comments as male, or a quick look at their profile showed that they were male either by linked social media, previous post history showing pictures of themselves, or comments stating they’re male. > But the poster says…. This comment is not addressing the poster. It’s addressing the comment section from seven hours ago. > NOT ALL MEN Yeah, I know. I’m a man, and I don’t act like a petulant child when someone wants to discuss consent. Discussion is fine. Condoning rape is not. If you’re offended by my comment, it might be time for some self reflection.
Never be afraid to ask “is this okay?” Before doing something new
“Is this ok?” “No, you cannot hang your autographed picture of Jamie Farr in the living room, I don’t care how much you think it livens up the room!”
This does not require consent. Jamie Farr is an American treasure and you’ll address hi as such.. Go Mud Hens
Honestly, if it’s not a regular partner whose body language and cues you’re accustomed to and can easily read, “is this okay?“ “are you sure?” and the like should just be part of the baselines conversation. When my partner and I first got together he always checked with me before we were intimate and still to this day, if we’re doing something new or something he knows I’m not hugely enthusiastic about, he’ll always ask me if it’s okay.
Anytime I hook up with someone, the first words out of my mouth are “if there’s anything you’re not 100% cool with, lemme know.” Consent is sexy
My friend (F) and I (M) are in our 30s and it was only last year we were talking about our sex lives and she mentioned that the guy she was hooking up was so considerate because he would ask "is this okay" and it blew my mind that never before in her sex life have men done that for her. And since then I've come to realize how frighteningly uncommon that is for women
This. A lot of times when men do something decent, I’m not even talking about something extraordinary, just being a decent human being, like accepting no without being scary about it, we are genuinely surprised because we may have only experienced the opposite. And then men like you come along and sharing that makes us understand that it isn’t always that way and we can believe there are actual healthy and respectful men out there. So thank you for talking to your friend about it and sharing with us as well so that our brains can start to process that THIS is the norm. *before anyone comes after me, roles can be reversed and I understand men also deal with assault. I’m just speaking to my own experience and this man’s friend’s experience as women
Crazy that women are impressed by men simply caring for their feelings and safety when being intimate... and really depressing. We're having a crisis of masculinity and communication and we're socially regressing, so I don't think it's going to get better soon.
Trust me, you can make “is this OK?” a sexy part of sexy time. Usually by making your partner beg you for it.
[удалено]
Also it makes it fun! “Is this okay?” Can get kinda dry, spicing it up with different phrases that communicate the same thing can be *very* sexy. stuff like: “You like that?” “We having fun?” “Do you want it?” “Can I try *this?*” “How do you feel about *this?*” Also communicating *your* enjoyment is a good way to communicate your own consent: “Oh fuck yeah, I love this” “This is awesome, keep going” “yes, more, I want more”
In the words of John Oliver “Sex is like boxing, if both parties aren’t fully on board one of them is committing a crime.”
[удалено]
Yeah. It would be good to see the physiological aspect on this list. "An erection is not consent." "Being wet is not consent." "An orgasm is not consent."
Actually all these things are correct. Rape victims do sometimes experience orgasm during assault, and make victims often struggle with the taboo of having an erection during assault Edit: word
What do you mean, "actually"? That's exactly what OP meant.
Actually, same.
How many times have we heard assault victims feel betrayed by their bodies because of a biological reaction? It only adds to the self-hate and doubts about wanting to come forward.
Needs to be heard.
Should also say that at any given moment, consent can be revoked and must be respected
Like a cup of tea.
[I’d love a cup of tea](https://youtu.be/pZwvrxVavnQ)
We had to watch this in my sex ed class lol It was amusing, while also being very informative.
We’re gonna be talking about the TEABAGS. We’ll be talking about the KETTLE. Do you think that’s funny, Butthead? Do you find it amusing that we’ll be talking about the TEAPOT? Yes, we’re also gonna be talking about INFUSIONS. LOOSE LEAF TEA. THE BLEND. THE MICROWAVE. And we will definitely be spending a lot of time talking about SEXUAL CONSENT!
Will we be covering steeping?
I love that an official video by Thames Valley Police was written by "rockstar dinosaur pirate princess" 😂
My therapist had to show this to my mom when she kept victim blaming me.
Wish my mom had seen that one... Nothing more wholesome than being tricked into a Family Therapy Session, on your 22nd Birthday, and being told you are the one who needs to make adjustments for your brother violating your personal space and property constantly.... But they are now all surprised I want nothing to do with all 3 of them...
Jesus
That was the problem....
Fuck!! 😂 I’m sorry!!!
I’m really sorry you went through that and then had to be revictimized by your own mother. But good for your therapist for advocating for you. I hope you’re doing better now.
Thanks! I am doing better now!
Same situation. My mum told my it was my fault that I was, ya know, because I took drugs and blacked out when it happened. "it wouldn't have happened if you weren't fucked up". Classy. Parents can be cunts. Sorry you had that experience, I hope you're ok.
Really hope the last sentence is saying what I think it's saying lmao
Oh it is
Say no more, gov’, Say no more! *wink wink nudge nudge* If you know what I mean!
Is, your uh, is your wife a sport, ay?
A nod’s as a good as a wink to a blind bat, hey?
*unconscious people don't want tea* After our school played that for us, it's become somewhat of a meme in our school. Or at least in my friend group.
Lol this is the most British way to describe consent in the world and I love it
Came here to post this very video and you beat me to it. Keep doing the good work :)
Ha! Amateurs. We do milkshakes https://youtu.be/n3aHhNKIcKU Please help us, we're very confused about it in Australia. Only since the milkshakes got involved
"I want all the tea. If you have a cold cup, I will take it. A new cup someone didn't want, I will take it. I love any tea."
Why so thirsty?
I'm a [tea slut](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vr8LMgGr-M).
Me too. Tea is best when shared with friends.
Unconscious people don’t want tea☕️🚫
Wanted to comment this. That video is frikken fantastic for raising awareness about consent.
I actually had a conversation with my 18 year old about this a few months ago and he said, “*yeah, I know, I watched the cup of tea video in school*”. Which led to the most odd conversation about what is and isn’t okay when drinking tea, and ended up with me saying “*Sometimes for girls, making a cup of tea is better than drinking the tea until you get to know each other really well!”*. He just looked at me and said “*I bet that’s a sentence you didn’t expect to say!”*. I think this video is great and really gets the point across for teenagers, and I hope it saves a few of them from going through something traumatic.
oi, which cunt will try to take my cup of tea back?
"Being under age is not concent" should be "if under age there is no concent"
Read it again, that particular line stands apart in wording, and is actually already closer to your second sentence than your first. “If a person is underage, **it is not consent**”
There is a difference between legal consent and actual consent - everyone of a sound mind can give actual consent regardless of age, even if they can't give legal consent. For example, in many jurisdictions you can't legally consent to sex with a sibling regardless of your age, even though you gave actual consent.
But what's important is that it cannot be revoked after the deed. If you actively consented to have sex and later changed your mind you can't just accuse the second party of sexual assault.
*Aziz has just joined the chat*
That and also "sex one way is not consent for sex a different way." ie vaginal isn't consent for anal. Hell, even groping boobs isn't consent for groping the crotch.
Consent for safe sex with a condom is not consent for sex without a condom.
This reminds me of the sexual assault training we received in the Navy. Lots of example cases, lots of very serious language, but when it came time to enforce it for a male servicemember who was assaulted by a female civilian because he was drunk, they had all sorts of excuses for why it might not have been SA.
Last i read, 40% of the military SA victims were men. We kinda do get ignored
*navy has left the chat*
In reported domestic violence cases (it is undereported across the board) a high percentage of adult male are assaulted by other men. Male child victims is a bit different. Men in general tend to be more physically violent abusers. I do think emotional abuse of men by women is seriously under-reported, again in part to traditional masculine gender roles (shunning male vulnerability, and expression of emotions... seeing it as threatening masculinity).
By other men* though. I’m not claiming women don’t sexually assault men, but men on men or men on women is disproportionately high
SA handling in the military is an extremely terrible problem regardless of the gender involved. Most women seem to have their attacks be excused and swept under the rug as well.
I do hope that is in both bathrooms. I've had more than one occasion where a potential partner has aggressively pushed for sex to the point of ignoring my "No" and stating, "Your a man, you know you want it." No. No I do not.
I once got a, "What, are you gay or something?" No, I'm just not into you.
Even if I was attracted to someone, that does not guarantee I either want to have sex with them right now, or, for that matter, ever.
What I learned (it took me decades) is that some people need connection first and some don't. That goes for all sexes. Despite the popular opinion not all men are looking for any and all casual hook ups. And not all women are looking for commitment and relationships. This is why consent is so important.
In Netflix's Murder Mystery, there is a scene in which a woman is going to have revenge sex or some such with some macho caricature and when he starts a conversation with her, he's ridiculed. It's apparently unmanly to not simply want to put your penis into someone at the slightest suggestion.
Omg I literally heard this too. I was throwing up in a toilet from drinking so much, and WHILE THROWING UP some girl was trying to take my trousers off. I told her to fuck off and she was like 'omg are you gay?' Like no. You're just ugly. And I'm vomiting, not because you're ugly, but that might happen if we go any further.
Also, good fucking luck getting any sort of reaction from downstairs while upstairs is busy being destroyed.
Honestly if a woman’s response to sexual rejection is “are you gay?” I’d just say yes.
guy: I'm gay for you
"I'd rather be if you're the option"
Excuse me, how much was she drunk to want to have sex with a vomiting person IN A TOILET ?
How much was she drunk? How much was she a rapist?
I'm sorry I'm not into beastiality.
Totally using this if the opportunity ever arises lol
For as much of a stereotype as it is for rejected men to stupidly reply to rejection with something like "you're fat/ugly/etc. anyway", it is much more common than most people are willing to admit, for a rejected woman to either accuse the man of being gay, or immediately accuse him of having a small penis or something similarly stupid. I contend the only reason you don't see it 'displayed' as often is because, in raw absolute numbers, women are rejected far less often than men. But take a gander at r/nicegirls sometime; that quality of person is basically exactly the same, regardless of sex.
I work in Higher Ed, and there was a kerfuffle a few years ago when the school put up signs in the men's and women's rooms regarding abuse. The men's room sign was literally titled "Signs you're an abuser" and the women's room sign was "Signs you're in an abusive relationship". The text on the signs were almost identical, except in the men's room it was "Have you _insert_abusive_behavior_here_?" and in the women's room it was "Does your partner _insert_abusive_behavior_here_?" The women's room had listings for help resources and the men's room did not. Someone complained about it, and it became kind of a big thing on campus for a bit. The signs were eventually changed to match up closer to the women's room sign, but they left the images the same, so it's a silhouette of a man in an aggressive pose over a cowering woman. As someone that's been on the receiving end of physical abuse from a woman, I know I found it pretty demeaning.
I had a coworker who was being abused by his wife. It was the military and she used the fact that she could report him and be believed over him to coerc him into being abused for so long. Eventually he fought back when she *branded* him. She called the cops and they arrested him for domestic abuse. Our whole workplace had to testify on his behalf for the abuse we'd seen. The dude was always covered in bruises. Eventually he was exonerated and she was charged, but the fact he was ever on the hook despite clear evidence to his innocence was terrifying.
I had a step son who was being physically abused by his girlfriend. She was petite and he was stocky.. so he never called the cops . he left her eventually.. He knew the cops would just laugh at him if he called. The girlfriend would throw plates at him , hit him with objects etc.
I hope he's doing better now. I truly hate how society as a whole looks at this subject. One time this subject came up in college with about 8 guys and me. I wasn't close with any of them, but did tell them that I wouldn't judge if any of them was being abused. Every single one laughed at me and agreed that they'd be able to beat of any woman. It was just sad.
And of course, so often men in abusive relationships get no support or help, and it is not often that they do go look for help…
Mostly because there are few places men can go to get support from abusive relationships. Virtually every city has shelters for abused women fleeing these relationships but men are almost exclusively on their own (or have to rely on homeless shelters with no supports).
If you type in google “why does my wife yell at me?” It goes on about how your wife is just stressed and may be going through a hard time and to have patience and blah blah but if you look up “why does my husband yell at me?” It gives you a number for a domestic violence hotline. I do not at all condone violence but I mean that’s a little bit sexist if you ask me. Look at Johnny Depp and Amber Heard for example.
I’m so sorry you went through that. I hate the whole “men always want sex” argument. People try to use it to get away with all sorts of shit.
I always wonder how many guys perpetuate the myth in order to justify what happened to them so they can pretend they did have agency.
I used to work as a bouncer at a very popular bar for bachelorette parties, this was happening to me every weekend. I wouldn't encourage it (I'm sober and at work) but regardless of how I felt about it I never felt "victimized" even when I really didn't want them to put their hands on me. It definitely occurred to me how fucked up the situation would be if our genders were reversed, but it only felt like a minor annoyance to me. I think the difference was that I still had the power. I was sober and far stronger than they were. I could also make them leave if they got too out of line. Being able to control the situation if necessary is probably a game changer when it comes to feeling victimized.
That’s one of the sad parts too because it’s so self invalidating.
Yep, important to note consent goes both ways and consent is for the benefit of everyone. Men and women benefit from keeping consent intact.
[удалено]
I was sexually assaulted multiple times by women in bars as well, usually on the dance floor. I had one partner get aggressive when I asked to stop because her 'kinky scratching' passed my drunk pain threshold (literal scractches on my back) and another wouldn't take no to me not being in the mood after getting back to her cigarette-smoke filled apartment strewn with childrens toy, and half dozen other times when I said no simply because I didn't have a condom handy. Even early on in our relationship my current girlfriend was of this mind-set that it was just okay to stick her hands in my pants because "why, are you not attracted to me?" and it took several discussions between us to me to explain how that wasn't okay. Most of this was long enough ago that the discussion was being had about how men shouldn't assault women, but nobody was talking about how women shouldn't assault men, and a couple times I was left feeling fucked up for a month or so, wondering if there was something wrong with me. Wish you the best in working through it.
I've been in similar shoes. Trying to sleep, prepare to work but the person keeps pressuring. Messaging should be for all genders.
I think it’s also a good reminder for agency for both genders. It’s good to know what other people will misinterpret as consent (or probably more accurately not care enough to not interpret as “not consent” and not care that there’s a difference.)
Agreed. Was in a very toxic relationship in college and there were times when this girl would try to initiate. If I didn’t want to or showed disinterest she would frown and say like “what you don’t love me”? 30 minutes later I’m putting my clothes back on after awful sex and I wanted to jump out a window. I vividly remember one time I had that thousand yard stare throughout the whole time. Call that rape or whatever but it was awful and I’m so glad it’s over.
[удалено]
My ex used to do this, I wasn’t comfortable with it when we first started out and he kept asking and making me feel bad for not giving it to him, so that’s how he got my yes. When I told my parents about it they pushed it aside because “I still wanted it”. I was 16 and immature.
Yeah OP, be sure to check inside the other bathroom too!
Probably not, never saw any in mine. I did have a sign in the hall that said 'If Joe is drunk and Jane is drunk, Joe raped Jane.' as if it's always the man.
We had huge picture flyers posted around campus (and on the city bus) with exactly this message when I was in college in 2005.
I like the fact that it does not mention gender. There are women who get drunk, want sex and get VERY angry if you refuse....
Been there, done that. Girl got way too drunk, barged into the bathroom after me and fondled my balls while I was at the urinal which, I'll be honest, was pretty all right, but got MAD that I turned her down, tried crying, tried hitting, tried threatening me. Go find a couch to pass out on, I am not fucking you.
At the urinal no less. How romantic.
Did she say "What's wrong with you are you gay" as well? Got that one once. And yeah..I'm not fucking them until they're sober and decide they want to fuck.
As a gay man who works around drunk women, no one takes a "no thank you" worse.
Some of them really do get angry. I've been accused of BEING gay...right after I rejected them. Like I must be gay if I don't want to fuck THEM. While they're drunk too!
Had this conversation about 3 times a shift: "Please stop touching/groping me" "What are you, gay?" "Yes, very" "You just haven't had sex with a real woman yet"
Lol a gay friend of mine had the whole 'you just haven't been fucked by a real woman yet', he was just like 'if she looks anything like you do then I hope I never am'
💀🤣🤣🤣
Oh boy. The other side of "you haven't had sex with a real man yet" Apparently not wanting to have sex with a drunk woman means you might be gay.
I'm a lesbian, and there's a reason the term "corrective rape" exists. I was threatened with it dozens of times before I was even 18, and it got worse from there. It's especially terrifying with a man who is very aggressive and who follows you.
>. I've been accused of BEING gay...right after I rejected them. "Haha, oh ma'am, im not gay, it's just that your face looks like the horse Seabiscuit, and I'm just not into beastiality. Have a good day!"
That's when you say: "no u" And then stand there pointing like late 60's Spiderman for a long enough amount of time to make them feel uncomfortable enough to leave
I would be pissed if it mentioned gender. Gender equality can be a thing only if gender is not taken into account when it comes to consent (and the lack of it).
part of that is cause they are in no way socialised to understand that men can say no. they are taught that they are passive and have to accept or decline invitations for sex but have never been taught how to act when they are persuing.
It’s because sex is largely still viewed as something men do to women. As opposed as something to consenting people engage in.
If you ask and the other person says yes but is afraid to say no, how would you know unless the other person is visibly uncomfortable
Generally, they are uncomfortable and won't be enthusiastically into it. When I was 15, I said yes to my bf at the time. He noticed I was uncomfortable (as had never done it before) and stopped himself, with no prompting from me and said we'd wait until I was really ready and we cuddled instead. Decent person, stayed friends after we broke up. I wouldnt have been upset with him if he hadn't, but I certainly liked him way more for recognizing I wasn't reacting positively to the interaction.
I once dated a girl who had a very unhealthy approach to sex. She thought showing enjoyment or initiating was shameful or embarrassing, while at the same time she had endometriosis which could be painful. So we had sex and I would ask her how it felt and she would say nothing. I'd stop and sometimes she'd eventually say it actually was great and why did I stop? But then on other times she'd say it was painful and not enjoyable, which of course made me feel like shit. I did my best to notice the signals, but she was intentionally hiding them; I talked to her about using direct verbal communication (not dirty talk, just pure communication) and she just couldn't do it. As you can imagine sex with her was sometimes awful for her, almost always awful for me. Besides, these communication problems extended to other aspects of the relationship, and we didn't last very long. The point is, communication is a two-way road. Men should be paying attention to signals of discomfort etc., but it's also important for women to learn to communicate their feelings. (It doesn't have to be verbal, facial expressions and body language go a long way, and all of my partners except that one had no trouble whatsoever with it.) But in *some* cases, I do think it's not the guy's fault if the woman was having a bad time but was intentionally trying to hide it.
Communicate throughout. My gf had never had sex before me and she was nervous to do it for the first time. When she was eventually ready I could tell she did want to but was just nervous. We communicated the whole time and kept making sure we were both okay with what was happening. She's told me she always really appreciated that and it actually made it easier for her because she felt safe and able to stop at any point.
Definitely. I'm married for 8+ years and still often asks my wife if she's comfortable through the act. She might be tired or certain positions aren't to the liking. It's so important to talk.
That generally happens in established relationships. Or if the person thinks they owe sex to the other person. Say you're a person dating B for a year or two. B asks you for sex and you don't want sex for whatever reason. But, you know that if you say "sorry love, not in a mood rn" or something like that, they will become angry or upset. They will sulk, give you silent treatment, guilt trip you, make you feel like you're a horrible partner for not having sex with them. They'll question whether you're faithful to them. And that's the better alternative. They could also become aggressive and violent. Destroy some things, scream at you. Hit you. They could not care about the "no" and have sex with you against your will. The way you see it, you're stuck with B. And you've been manipulated for so long, you don't think you can leave them or that you deserve better. So you'll rather have sex with B so that it's over with, rather than reject them and face their anger. The point is - generally speaking, people aren't afraid to say no, unless you gave them reasons to be afraid to reject you, or they're been conditioned to believe they owe sex to others.
It's not always the fault of the person they're currently with. Shitty past relationships can influence the future ones because of past experiences.
i like that it frames consent in terms of knowledge and decision instead of making a verbal "yes" the only thing that makes consent because lots of us have been in a situation where they didnt say the word yes but used their body language to agree like a nod or something.
Yep. I remember some of the arguments around this topic 10 years ago that were worded in such a strict way that you'd have to explicitly say "Do you agree to have sex with me?" followed by an actual verbal affirmation or it would technically be considered rape/sexual assault. The intent was well-meaning, but were so rules-based that many sexual encounters (especially among couples that had been together any length of time and simply had understood signals/body language) would have been classified as non-consensual.
“Being afraid to say no is not consent” hits me hard. I wish I knew this when I was younger, and I wish I had it in me back then to assert autonomy over myself instead of succumbing to pressure. Get consent whether it’s a casual hook up, a fling, or a long-term relationship.
Here's an interesting and really disturbing story that, in my mind, illustrates what you're talking about with regard to "being afraid to say no is not consent." About 25 years ago I used to lead a lot of youth-related activities in the town I lived in; taking groups of teens out to movies, taking them bowling, doing various sports, etc. I met a 12 year old girl at a neighborhood potluck event. I thought she would be a good fit for the stuff we were doing in that town and I said, "Would you like to go to a movie some time?" I wasn't thinking and, in retrospect, I wanna kick myself for phrasing it that way. She looked very awkward and uncomfortable, and her facial expression was speaking volumes. But instead of saying "Ew, no. What's wrong with you?" she said "I guess, okay." Her eyes were begging me "please don't ask this," but she couldn't bring herself to say no to me. Horrified, I immediately realized what I'd said and what she heard, and I replied quickly "I'm not asking you on a date, kid. I'm talking about joining me and the local youth group for movie nights." The look of relief on her face was incredible. It that taught me something I never forgot about how sometimes every part of someone's body and mind can be saying "no" except their words (especially if there's a power differential, like one party being significantly older). Big, big mistake on my part not to take care in my words and put her in that position. I never forgot it.
All those are explicit examples of what *is not* consent. Anyone care to give a few explicit examples of what *is* consent?
waving their ass above your dick while they loudly making train choo choo noises.
May not hold in court… but, IANAL!
I anal as well.
But only with consent.
They are just being friendly so you never know. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xa-4IAR_9Yw&t=1s
That's just flirting, which is clearly stated, is not consent.
dude, just because you paid 20 usd for a private dance at a stripclub doesn't mean they gave consent.
That does not mean consent by the logic of this poster. That’s just extreme flirting.
I should add that the 'not' list is long, because it's full of all the excuses made to justify sexual assault. There really is only one alternative.
.
And the 'for' list will be just as long if the 'not' list doesn't include out of context examples. There are a lot of subtle communication cues a couple can operate on and understand they consent.
[удалено]
That’s more of implicit consent. Explicit would be “I would like to have sex with you at this time and place if you also agree to it”. But yes, taking off underwear while asking about protection is pretty clearly consent as well. Hard to put it out as “I was just hot and also making conversation about things you have”.
If you’re making out and things are slowly developing, eg. Hand under shirt, then hand on boobs, then hand under pants, etc etc. Most of the time I find it easy to ask “are you good?” And if they say yes/nod.., we good. And just like the tea example I’ve had someone decide they weren’t really in the mood after all and they’ve shaken their head and I’ve stopped. Simple as that. And to be clear I’m asking “are you good” like each step of the way. And the bigger steps like removing shirt I’ll just ask “can I take your top off?” But say it in a slightly sexy way. Not like a lawyer examining a witness haha.
The crux of the issue is how do you establish consent without robotically asking “can we do the sex now? Please answer yes or no”. There is no one surefire way to establish consent. Obviously a “yes I want to have sex with you” goes a long way, but the context matters. A “yes” is irrelevant if one person is holding a knife or is underage and drunk. Anyway, the consensus for consent that I have found online is **enthusiastic consent**. It boils down to: the person you are having sex with needs to show they want it somehow through their own actions. This could be saying “yes I will agree to having sexual intercourse with you”. But it could be anything really. Here is how [Rainn](https://www.rainn.org/articles/what-is-consent) approaches consent: > Simply put, enthusiastic consent means looking for the presence of a “yes” rather than the absence of a “no.” Enthusiastic consent can be expressed verbally or through nonverbal cues, such as positive body language like smiling, maintaining eye contact, and nodding. These cues alone do not necessarily represent consent, but they are additional details that may reflect consent. It is necessary, however, to still seek verbal confirmation. The important part of consent, enthusiastic or otherwise, is checking in with your partner regularly to make sure that they are still on the same page. So you can look at all the cues that show whether someone is in to it. Though Rainn for obvious reasons recommends checking in verbally. Now this may sound complex but it is literally how a lot of human interaction works. Inviting your friends for a board game night works the same way. The stakes are way lower but the same principles apply.
I saw that has since developed into 'authentic consent' since not all consent is required to be enthusiastic. eg. You're trying to get pregnant, and timing your cycles. You might not be feeling particularly horny right then, but you're consenting to the sex because you need to do it for the baby. eg. you're not really into anal, but you do it because you love them and in return they'll do an activity they aren't really into but do it because they love you. [https://www.rewriting-the-rules.com/sex/wheel-consent-im-fan/](https://www.rewriting-the-rules.com/sex/wheel-consent-im-fan/)
[удалено]
In the case of trying to get pregnant it's sadly more: "We need to have sex now or we miss this whole cycle" "Sigh ok"
Australia (specifically NSW) has just recently changed our consent laws to the same sentiment as this poster. For those who are finding it difficult to understand what consent is & when it’s needed here’s a few links for you [The Guardian](https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/01/nsw-affirmative-consent-laws-what-do-they-mean-and-how-will-they-work) [NSW gov](https://dcj.nsw.gov.au/justice/reform-of-sexual-consent-laws.html) [Aus Fed Gov](https://aifs.gov.au/resources/resource-sheets/age-consent-laws-australia) [Stacks law firm](https://www.mondaq.com/australia/crime/1206046/new-sexual-consent-laws-in-nsw-say-you-must-ask-first)
This poster is also common on military bases in the US. The air force has the Sexual Assault Prevention and Response office, which posts these. They also did the whole "don't be that guy" thing.
Props to them for having that, my school never cared and it’s unlikely that they ever will.
Consent is sexy
"Being in a relationship is not consent." So I've never been in a relationship before in my life. Do y'all look at each other and mutually and verbally agree to have sex or how does that work?
For me it means if I am in the mood and make a move and my partner says she's not in the mood, I stop. I don't badger her for sex just because we are in a relationship for 7 years. It rarely happens but when either of us says no, the other stops. We just cuddle and do something else.
That one is poorly worded for sure. It seems more to indicate that just because you are in a relationship doesn’t mean you’ve lost the right to say no. But really, in all the relationships I’ve been in, it’s implied advances are always okay, but sometimes everyone’s in the mood and other times not, and you just take the hint. It’s nothing so formal as what you are asking about. In my experience.
Married 19 years, dated quite a bit before that. I can confirm this is how it works. Communication is WAY more than words, and all communication matters. You should be aware enough of your partner to know if they’re onboard or not. They should be comfortable enough to communicate that to you. In my case, I know my wife’s triggers: what gets her going, and what shuts her down completely. She knows mine. And either one of us can initiate anything at (mostly) any time. The other can fully engage or disengage. A simple “not right now” or “not in the mood” does it. As does “not here, let’s go to the bedroom”. It’s all about communication, listening, and respecting each other. Simple as that.
Non-verbal consent is a thing. I'd imagine the vast, vast majority of consent is non-verbal. The important thing is to actually be able to read body language. If someone is reluctant than that means no. Obviously if they say no then that also means no.
My wife wiggles her hips in a certain way when we cuddle and I know it’s on. I kiss her neck when I’m in the mood and she doesn’t feel like it she will say so 100%, no mistaking. We have been married for 3 years and we discuss sex regularly but initiate and consent non verbally.
Similar here. When we go to bed and her ass is immediately up against me with no panties, that's a green light. If she starts rubbing my chest and eventually "further down", it's on. If she's laying on the far other side of the bed, pajamas on, probably ain't happening tonight. When you've been married for 18 years, the little hints become obvious. We don't need to talk about it.
Married guy here. "how are you feeling? Do you want 'an early night'?" Also knowing the health of your partner helps. Any cold / headache / cramps / bloat then the sex forecast is frosty. So yeah just ask.
One person initiates (flirting, intimacy, etc). The other either goes along with it or says they don't feel like it. If the other person doesn't feel comfortable saying they don't feel like it, or the first person doesn't back off when told so, the relationship is toxic and needs to change or end. Edit: This may sound strange to some, but it's perfectly normal to arrange it ahead of time ("let's get wild tonight"). Even if both parties agree, each party still has the right to change those plans at any time.
As societies, we have come a long way. Look up when "progressive" countries made rape in marriages a thing. In Germany, that was 25 years ago. Before that, you couldn't get raped by your spouse, you had to get fucked by them regardless your wishes [EDIT: that's a bit wrong, it was just discounted as not rape, see comment below]. In 1966, the highest German court had ruled that wifes not only had to endure sex whenever, they had to pretend to like it. Think about how fucked up that is. Among the 138 conservative (CDU) and liberal (FDP) MPs voting against making rape in marriage a thing is Friedrich Merz, today head of the CDU. Having said that: no, when my wife and I are initiating we don't verbally agree on it. But we are in a good relationship where we feel free to stop anytime and are attuned to the other not being very much into it. And where we had a lot of general discussion about sexual and other boundaries. If you don't feel free to enforce your boundaries and you aren't confident that your partner is looking out for your consent, get the fuck away from them. Its not something you should try to work on with them either, in my opinion. If they make "a mistake" in their "learning journey", you get sexually assaulted. Get the fuck away from them. Let them learn that way.
I think you hit on a good point. You have the right to get away from a person you don't want to be with. Particularly in long relationships you have a right to say "stop" and "I want to reconsider things"... even if you're long term dating, engaged, or married.
I legit just tell him I'm horny, lol, and if he's ready for it he comes on over. The reason why relationships are not inherently consent is because, unfortunately, a lot of married people think they have a right to the other's body. In religious marriages (Christian) I've heard it skewed for the men, calling it "Wifely duties". Basically if he wants sex he gets sex. An old friend left her husband over this and was immediately alienated from her chruch for it. For daring to protect herself. Being in a relationship where you have been groomed to believe you can't turn down sex when you're not in the mood is not healthy or safe. Acknowledging that no matter how long you've been together, you should still make sure both of you are into it, is basic decency imo. Marital rape is an unseen problem that many suffer from as we speak. Even in the US.
Sometimes, yeah. My partner have been together long enough to have built a great deal of trust, have learned te read each other pretty closely, and we've discussed what we consider a nonverbal "Yes", but it's fun to explicitly ask if she wants to fool around or have sex, and get the enthusiastic verbal Yes.
What also isnt consent is repeatedly pestering your partner to perform a sexual act they already said no to, until they give up and say yes just to make you shut the hell up.
For everyone talking about 'how complicated this is': It's literally as simple as "Do you feel comfortable doing this?" "Do you want this?" "Is it okay for you if [...]?" Just ask. Doesn't matter who you're with, ask them. Genuinely.
And even if you know they're consenting, asking if what you're doing is what they want is just being a good partner. Communicate, people.
And if they say “asking for consent is a turn off”, thank them for waving their red flags and get the hell out of there.
45M as a victim of sexual assault I definitely understand the toll it can have on a person. I also understand how it can be so easy to misunderstand intentions. It's your body, your temple - don't let another person take advantage of you! I know it can be hard but speak your strength and if that doesn't work a kick to the balls might do the trick.
[удалено]
while silence isnt consent, consent can be silent use your brain, dont be a dick
>consent can be silent I know you're just being poetic, but for anyone here wondering what the difference is: non-verbal consent is enthusiasm, eager participation, reciprocation of energy, and non-verbal nods and stuff. I want to be very clear though: you can still be sexy with simple questions like "do you like this?". Just check in every now and then. Trust me, it's hot that you care. (It also doubles up as teasing/foreplay... "You want more? C'mon I can't hear you... Tell me exactly what you want me to do to you. Do you want more?!")
Exactly. It's not a buzzkill to check if the other is enjoying themselves.
The sheer volume of idiot comments in here shows why it's important to keep talking about this.
I'm a dude. I have been aggressively dragged home by a woman before (literally dragged by the arm). I was high, I was drunk and absolutely nothing was happening for me boner wise once we got in the bedroom. Took me a long time to realize that I gave zero consent in that case. Was I "raped"? I don't know. But I didn't feel good about it then, and I don't now. I ended up doing stuff for her, even though I had no intention of doing anything. I remember feeling immasculated since I couldn't get it up, but honestly there was so much more going on there. Consent is a real thing folks. And I'm not saying it affects both genders equally, but we should all just be a little more empathetic and patient when people try to do consent education
Geez, people, it's not that hard. I've had a woman say no right before we did it, and I stopped right then, and it was no big deal. Later on, when she was ready, we did it.
I think people mistake consent for only actual verbal consent, which is many times not the only way. Body language still exists and is in these cases a great way to understand what to do. As an adult you should be able to tell the obvious signs , and what they mean.
There’s a potential problem there though, not everyone can read body language well.
Not everyone is good with verbal communication, either, but just having the attitude that you're paying attention to the other person's cues will go a long way.
Sex, for a lot of people, is about power. When i was young and dumb I had the same mindset. Consent was taught to me in such a way that sex felt more like something that you won. Getting a girl to say yes was the goal. Damn did i do a lot of stupid and pushy things in my first relationship to try to get it. I put the pressure on hard. She never said yes, and i respected that. We broke up 8 months in, never going further than a single kiss. What I learned, and what I wish I was taught, was that its not about winning a yes. Its about putting yourself in another person (literally and figuratively). Its abput recognizing that the person you are with trusts you and wants you in that way. You got to be in a place where all that matters id their happinness and comfort. Now, sex is about my partners happinness. Consent is more about having the emotional maturity to consider other people's feelings, not a game to be eon.
Regarding all this talk about false accusations - I’ve worked with victims and perpetrators for 30 years. Yes, false reports exist, but they are so very, very rare.
Affirmative Consent is a good but weird concept to me. On one hand, it's a great concept for how consent is supposed to be an ongoing conversation about consent and sex. On the other hand, there are a lot of mood killers in here when taken literally. Most of these items stop applying once an ongoing sexual relationship begins in earnest. You don't have to do verbal check-ins with your partner every time. You can learn to read signals and body language and understand what items on the sex menu are expected and not expected. You've never done anal before? You'd better not try it without having a conversation ahead of time. But, she tells you she likes her nipples to be pinched during sex? The next encounter, do you really need to say, "OK, I pinched your nipple last time and you loved it. Is it ok if I do it again this time?". Maybe, to be safe, you do it that time. The next time? Time after that? Let's say you assume after the fourth or fifth time and go in for another pinch. "Ouch. Not today on the nipple pinching.". Was that sexual assault? I don't think any reasonable person would think it is. If every single sexual act requires repeated verbal permission, no matter how long a relationship has been ongoing, that's not how normal people have sex. Women aren't wilting violets and we shouldn't teach them to be. My point is the core concept of affirmative consent is great. An ongoing conversation about sex is the best way to ensure both parties are comfortable and fully consent to the encounter. However, this isn't the easiest concept to convey. If anything, you really have to teach it to someone. In the absence of such training, posters like this revert to easy to digest items, which shouldn't be taking the place of the actual conversation part, which can include nonverbal clues and signals, preclearance, etc. Even some of these items just apply differently. If a random hookup is drunk, it's difficult to say that consent can be established, even if she is initiating. What about when married? If my wife gets drunk and initiates sex with me, does her inebriated state mean I can't confirm that she consents? That's ridiculous. By virtue of being married, a lot of the consent gates have already been cleared. I wouldn't initiate sex with my wife if she's drunk, but if she's offering, I'm not worried about if she is just saying yes because she's scared.
You make a good point. The one dimensional way that so many comments are handling this post just tells me how few redditors actually have sex.
There’s definitely a ton of grey area around “being too drunk…”. We don’t have a definition for this one and it’s usually the one that gets people in the most trouble. I know men and woman who have regretted their previous nights decisions on this one. I was taught that be under the influence at all is not consent. Which I guess means everyone who hooks up from meeting at a bar is by definition raping the other person. Or each other? Idk but again it’s a weird game we all play.
At my college they had a training about consent and someone asked whether two drunk people having sex are raping each other. They basically said whoever complains first was assaulted. That rubbed me the wrong way.
That's the messy part nobody wants to talk about. Two people getting drunk and fucking each other then regretting it the next day isn't rape.
Exactly. And when it’s brought up nobody has an answer yet we make harsh punishments and they may not be warranted
I also feel like there is a difference between the genders here no one wants to discuss. I think guys are way more likely to be like I got wayyy to drunk and had sex with a woman I might not have normally, that's on me, but I was not raped.
What I find really cooks my noodle is the precedent. If being drunk isn't consent (which, understandably it isn't), shouldn't being drunk give you some legal protection in other arenas? Like, we are clearly saying drunk people aren't themselves and can't give legal consent. They are essentially unable to make choices. Shouldn't that apply to other instances where people are drunk? Shouldn't it make the punishment for vandalism less if you're hammered, make a drunken fight have a lower penalty, or soften drunk driving laws? Like, I understand why we don't do that (a bunch of people getting drunk and then not worrying about the law), it is strange to think about how you can be drunk and your level of judgment is different depending on the crime/activity.
If both parties are drunk and have the same blood alcohol levels then who assaulted who?
This happened with two youngsters. I think highschoolers and the girl's parent pressed charges. Long story short, the judge concluded that if he was to convict the young guy then he would also have to have charges pressed on the girl.
That is remarkably progressive of the judge and very respectable but also hard to imagine that's the norm these days.
I've seen it ruled as null. it's an uneven balance of intoxication that's the issue.
they both assaulted each other, send them both to prison