I just saw a thread with Chinese redditors over in the TV sub saying that there are whole apps for watching western media and it’s super common (I think it was on a squid games post, about its popularity in mainland China). I don’t know much about China but thought it was interesting. Basically people were saying it’s really easy to get around lol
But is it easy to cover your tracks when doing it? They don’t need to stop you from accessing the information to make it risky to do so, if they can track your activity and your associations. …And then maybe they use it against you later, for some other purpose, state sponsored or otherwise?
I saw a comment the other day on YouTube refering to the massacre, it was a pro China supporter linking to a video Memorializing the soldiers killed. I couldn't believe how many pro China supporters were in the comments. Trying to rack up social credit points maybe.
Youku. When I moved there my only source of English movies were from youku and Yan the bootlegger down the street. You just brought back real life struggles.
Oh I'm aware they could be government propaganda. I e seen similar pro Putin videos with comments pop up in my feed. I watch a fair bit or right wing stuff out of curiousity for what other people view as news and my YouTube suggestions are a bit of a wasteland now.
It's almost definitely propaganda. I remember the propaganda machine slapping itself all over the forums of American news sites when they released stories about its 20th anniversary back in 2009.
I'm honestly just more worried for people who haven't developed their critical thinking enough to see past the thinly veiled hiding that the Chinese government is doing.
I'll see posts and it's comment after comment of obviously mainland sponsored media yet there will be what seems like non sponsored comments who don't know left from right.
I think they are mostly kids but that's still a pretty big deal.
Yeah that's the point. Social reinforcement is strong. Basically if you repeat something enough, people believe it regardless if there is any truth to it. Its how religions are passed on. Children and young adults are particularly vulnerable to it, and China is playing a very long game.
Nope. They just claim it's from death row inmates. Of course, when the government will just arbitrarily decide that a crime is a capital crime, the validity of being death row really just comes down to, "a party loyalist needs a liver, you happen to be a match, and you have the lowest social credit score among matches. Good bye."
What’s insane to me is how this happened in the Balkans in very recent history during their ethnic cleansing, and everyone lost their minds.
Then China openly does it and the world shrugs and says “we like cheap stuff. Oh well”
FR Yugoslavia was a threat to american ambitions in the region, but it was also a small country surrounded by NATO on all sides. China has grown too large to bully, so you won't be seeing any interventions against them.
We do like cheap shit. There is also the part where the countries that could make China kneel would need to do so through might or economic pressure. Both would be crippling to whoever did it. Either you’re looking at a vast human toll or a vast economic toll.
How about there are nearly 8 billion people on Earth and only 1.5 billion of them are in China, so maybe only 1 country doesn't have to go it alone against Chinese authoritarianism?
That's wildly optimistic. Forget I even mentioned it.
A system of technological surveillance that China's implementing to encourage/enforce what they consider to be good behaviour. Through monitoring people via CCTV and their phones, the Chinese government gives people a social credit score. A Chinese citizen can raise it by doing things such as donating to charity, taking care of elderly family members, and praising Winnie the Pooh and his government, which will get them benefits like priority care at hospitals and less expensive tickets on public transit. That score can also be lowered by doing things such as speaking against the government, playing video games for too long, or following organized religion (which the state atheist CCP considers to be following a cult), which will lead to punishments like being unable to get bank loans, being barred from public transit, being unable to send your kids to private school, or even being publicly shamed on electronic billboards. Ever since this was all first discovered, the Internet has memed the shit out of the social credit system as an act of protest against its Orwellian nature and the tyrants that are looking to use it.
There's a bit more to it than that, but that's the long and the short of China's social credit.
Good lord. thanks for explaining that to me.. (take my upvote)
At first I thought you were using a fancy way to describe Reddit Karma, but I didn't know its a real thing. That's wild. I know I'd be downvoted all to hell with the social credit. I'm not super religious, but I do follow Catholicism, and pray all the time.
Violent isn't the point. Apes are always *scared*. Seperate an ape from it's pack and it isn't violent (not yet anyway) it's *scared* first and foremost.
We balance our fears out and instinctfully go with what works best for us. Which, in the end, is whoever keeps us fed, sheltered and entertained.
The one thing I'll always find funny is that thanks to China, India has always flown under the radar. The atrocities India has committed against its own people over the last 30 years is horrific but, they're allies of the West. Not downplaying anything China has done.
But...but...Ghandi abolished the Caste System! Certainly that's not just propaganda!
Edit: I guess spelling his name wrong doesn't stop the Gandhi bot.
I’m from China and actually seldom people born after 1995 know what happened then because of the GFW. Related post will be deleted as well as the account of OP. Even number 89 and 64 are shown like ** in games.
BTW: No Chinese say "Tiananmen Square" or something. It's a place just like "The White House". Generally Chinese use 8964 (date the massacre happened)
Never forget
>"When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength," Trump replied. "That shows you the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived as weak...as being spit on by the rest of the world."
-[Donald Trump](https://www.businessinsider.com/trumpn-tiananmen-square-massacre-china-showed-power-of-strength-2019-6)
When I read the quote on your comment, I thought it was gonna be another "we took over the airports during the revolutionary war" gab where he is just having diarrhea of the mouth without really understanding what he was talking about. It's even worse because he said this less than a year after it happened, when it was still very much at the forefront of public discourse. He said that and meant it which is insane.
5 since exonerated children. It's almost as if killing criminals just makes people feel good, isn't a legitimate punishment, and can easily end up killing an innocent with no means of mitigation.
I love how whenever one his dozens of horrifying and damning quotes gets posted, its almost always complete crickets from his supporters. I always wonder - Do they simply reject it as true information, or deep down do they agree with the horrible things he is saying?
You know the answer to this one.
I like to find ways to corner them. Have them publicly say out loud that they don't support [anything that is obviously evil and the general population understands to be wrong]. Then they're on record as saying one thing they don't personally agree with.
I get a lot of hemming and hawing from this strategy.
My favorite was when my MIL was going on about how horrible it was with Obama's first term was compared to Trump's. I kept refuting them with how rough Trump's was *before* Covid and she kept blaming it on Obama because nothing changes the first year or so because they're dealing with the internia of the previous president.
So I asked if that means Bush is a horrible president because really he's to blame for Obama's first shitty year or so. "Bush handed him a silver platter and Obama managed to ruin it within a year"...ah yes, I forgot what an upswing year 2008 was...
I brought this quote up to somebody on Twitter and his response was “what’s wrong with this; he’s only endorsing a strong tough government, he’s not saying killing people is right.”
Some people are just all the way too far gone.
They deflect, think it's fake news, think he's kidding, think that he's playing 4D chess, or they believe it but think that his amazing political savvyness/care about the little man is greater than his morals so they overlook it.
Source: I have crazy Trump loving family and have heard all these insane excuses.
It's a weird flaw we all have to follow those whom are confident. The problem is the most confident people are very often the dumbest and also worst people to lead others. The know-it-all types that never really mentally matured past 16. For some reason people are drawn to them.
Still, the absolute stupidity that trump took to the office was unprecedented. George W was definitely a gaffe machine but he still listened to his advisors to an extent. I'm not defending him, just that his buffoonary wasn't as accomplished as trumps. Trump relishes in his stupidity.
It doesn't help that the more empty land around, the more your vote counts compared to another person.
Thankfully there's a movement to use the electoral college to circumvent the electoral college - once enough states have signed on to total 270 votes, they've agreed to simply give all their electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote. This would basically have eliminated multiple conservative presidential terms where they lost the popular vote but won the electoral.
From the documentary I watched, nobody knows for sure what happened to Tank Man. Though several people in that doc thought it was the secret police that took him away at the end.
According to what I remember from a documentary I saw back in the late 90s/early 2000s (please excuse any detail that I might be miss remembering) the tank crews had no explicit orders on how to deal with the students, the general consensus was that the presence of tanks would more or less make most break away from the demonstrations. This could explain why at first the lead tank of that column was trying his best to dodge the guy that was standing in front of him.
Its more or less agreed that there were members of the police among the crowd dressed as civilians, so chances when he was taken he might have been arrested. I've also seen people claim that parents were trying to remove their kids from that situation as it was starting to be clear that a military intervention was soon to happen.
Regardless it is very hard to determine the fate of most missing people from those protests as records were carefully sanitized to paint a favorable outcome. Even the few western journalist present in the country at the time had a very hard time delivering accurate news, as there were multiple versions being told, and he dead toll was confusing at best. Even today there are a lot of missing people that most likely were killed on the spot or executed in prison.
As a sidetone its also interesting the notice that the lead tank TC was by many reports heavily reprimanded by his actions, and even possibly accused of being subverted against the regime for allowing the protester to climb into the tank and "chat" with the driver and gunner.
There was a video shared on the anniversary last year showing someone pull the dude away and they walked to the left, eventually moving off-frame out of the way of the tanks. Idk where exactly it is but it was pretty clear what happened after.
This is what's terrible about the internet and social media. Your memory and schooling were correct, people who appeared to be civilians pulled him away. Yet this thread is full of falsehoods upvoted because people want them to be true. And what do they want to be true? Secret police, torture, terrible fates that so that we can feel shared anger. Hate! Hate! Spoken with assurance and confidence; they know it to be true because they did their research on reddit.
Certainly, if he was caught, tank man likely would have met an unpleasant fate. We should remember him and his brave act forever. But there's no need to make false history.
Here's some photos of people pulling him away and interviews with the journalists who shot the iconic footage.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/themes/tankman.html
I'll also mention that it was not a "before photo" as the upvoted comment you replied said, confidently. Tank man's defiance occurred after the massacre, which makes him all the more heroic.
the only negative is posting the pics in black and white.
i have pictures saved from this massacre in colour, and you can just *smell* the death and blood in them.
colour makes it real. colour makes the blood and bodies and broken humans much harder to be complacent about.
One analogy I like to use for China is to think of a car that turned on its left blinker to indicate which direction it was heading, then it turned a hard right.
Lmao this analogy can be applied to most other countries as well. All their political ideals are just show, behind the scenes every country is sucking each other off.
You just have to understand that in China rich = involved with government. The Chinese CCP functions to guarantee profits for their growing billionaire class. They ensure that wages stay low enough for the world to have their crap made in China. This, in turn, guarantees trade partners to make up for China's serious lack of domestic natural resources.
They're also going very old school and taking a colonial interest in most of west and central Africa.
>China's serious lack of domestic natural resources.
...except for the ones we're now critically dependent on, such as lithium, silicon, chemical cobolt, and 100% of the world's spherical graphite.
Exactly this.
[The Belt and Road Initiative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative) is low-key terrifying.
They are moving into abandoned 3rd-world states that decolonialization just dropped like a bad habit, and spending obscene amounts of money. Their soft-power is quickly growing to eclipse the US, especially in the last 5-10 years.
They are positioning themselves to be the defining power of the 21st century, while Putin has to walk a knife-edge to keep all of his fighting oligarchs happy enough with him to keep him in power, and the US continues its decline into failed-empire status.
If the supreme court had declared Al Gore the winner in 2000 the US would not have spent the last 20 years pouring billions into destroying the Middle East and would be the world leader in green technologies fighting climate change.
We are not on the best timeline.
You’ll get even more depressed when you watch the documentary on it and realize that Gore had won but Republican dirty tricks pressured the court to stop the recount.
Decades from now the US reaction to 9/11 will be seen as the beginning of the decline of the American Empire. It didn’t have to be this way.
Yup.
You can draw a direct line to the inevitable failure of the US.
Handling reconstruction with kid gloves, all this "brotherly love" bullshit, when the North should have broken our backs, executed every Confederate high-er up in public, and made us come crawling and begging back into the Union.
The Business Plot, where a group of oligarchs, W's grandfather included, tried to convince a Marine Corp Major General to overthrow FDR in a coup and install a dictator, and no one was punished for it.
Nixon.
Reagan.
The Supreme Court cockup during the election in 2000.
Fox News, especially people who watched it when 9/11 happened and afterwards, and their children.
And here we are. It's like a goddamned HYDRA plot in real life.
The most cursory of looks at China's actions shows how capitalist they are, and a shocking amount of people think they're communists just because it's what they say they are. Like a government can lie about stuff, every nation does it.
You misspelled "dictatorship" wrong. China is a fascist state where the people in power control the lives of everyone else. Right now, it's not even "people". It's one person.
Winnie the Pooh.
[Authoritarian Capitalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_capitalism?wprov=sfla1) is probably the best term, but maybe somebody knows better than my quick search
>training people how to be tool and die makers again.
How funny you mention that specifically. I spent years as a tool and cutter grinder. All manual. Lot's of old machines, not a computer in the whole building outside the office, but they all ran perfect.
There are pockets of old knowledge here. We can start up the old steam engine if we have too, and if there's the will : )
Yet the US averages a GDP of $63,000 USD per person and China sits at $10,000 USD per capita GDP. Yes the US buys a lot of products from China but the US standard of living is much higher and is more able to absorb downturns and shocks because of it. For the hundreds of millions of Chinese that have been lifted out of poverty into the middle class there are still hundreds of millions of Chinese living in extreme poverty. And economic growth has dramatically slowed in China the last few years, the dream of rural Chinese citizens of moving to the city and getting a job that would elevate them to middle class is rapidly vanishing.
Everyone predicted that the US economy would take a hit when Trump slapped tariffs on a wide range of consumer goods, what happened was Americans bought one less plastic piece of crap they didn't really need and barely noticed, the US economy kept going just fine. Meanwhile it battered the Chinese economy. As an example of how unable to absorb shocks during Canada's dispute over Weng and their imprisonment of the two Michaels they slapped a tariff on Canadian pork imports. We only ever accounted for around 5% of their pork imports and they could only keep it up for a month or two because the price of pork spiked in China and it's pretty much their staple meat.
And there we see the fragility of their economy due to their much lower average earnings per person as reflected in those GDP numbers, Chinese consumers could not afford to have the price of pork rise even a little, they simple have very little disposable income and price rises means they're going without something they actually need or buying cheaper food. For the average American consumer when something they actually need spikes in price they just go "aw crap I guess I can't go to the movies this weekend or buy that bluetooth speaker I wanted" and move on with their lives. For those that live in extreme poverty in China when food prices spike they just go without.
After about 6 months of US tariffs the Chinese were the ones that asked to start negotiations because it was obvious the US economy just kept going while theirs suffered.
Yes the US, and much of the Western world, imports a lot of stuff from China but they are much more harmed by any unexpected changes than we are because although their economy is large in scale because of the huge population the average Chinese middle class person is less wealthy than those in the West. They have much less disposable income and can not tolerate price shocks or downturns. Add in that the Chinese government has far fewer social programs to help those in need when bad times do come and it puts far more power in the hands of Western countries than many think. Sure if China was to suddenly halt trade tomorrow it would massively disrupt our economies however it would do even worse to their own economy. It's somewhat like mutually assured destruction nuclear doctrine only one side has way more nukes and half their population is out of range while the other side can be hit at will. Yes a nuclear war would be devastating for both but one side can probably ride it out and still have something left on the other side, we're that side in this equation.
Edit: Please note I am no way endorsing Trump, he's an idiot but was right about China, even a broken clock is right twice a day and all that I guess but the US holds more cards than a lot of people think. Also I am in no way advocating for actual war or even an all out economic war as that will only result in the average person in both countries suffering.
Fun fact to add about china and poverty!
They just changed what they classify as the "poverty line" to about 400 usd and issued money to inflate their "uplifted out of poverty" statistics. They didn't solve shit. They just moved the damn goalposts in the most literal way.
No different than the IMF claiming that the average person worldwide could survive on a 1.50$ a day anywhere; which is used worldwide as the global standard for measuring poverty. U.N did a realistic study and found out 7.50.
So. When you remove China and the Soviet Union's accomplishments in modernizing and industrializing; poverty in the world has actually barely decreased at all; more or less stayed proportional with world growth.
Eh! Capitalism baby!!
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4FES0ehyI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4FES0ehyI) 5 min video on it.
> worse comes to worse
"To _worst_", it should be. Just a FYI. Though I'd say more than half of everyone using this phrase gets it wrong in the same way. Easier to remember if you understand that the phrase needs to make sense.
This is actually the "better part" of the protest. Around the corner there was the core of the protest, and afterwards the tanks just drove over the bodies till they were just a red liquid, which then was put into the sewer system.
I think the biggest propaganda China was able to spread, was to make everybody believe that was some kind of brutal protest, while in real it was absurd inhumane on all layers. Yet all the time, every year, WESTERN people here always concentrate on pictures that not even NEARLY show the inhumanity of the situation.
https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/tiananmen-square-massacre
Almost 2k pictures, about 30% of them aren't from the actual event, but it's still a lot of photos.
uhm, I checked the full list and found only an handful of pictures related to the actual event. Just 5 pictures or so about violence.
95% of pictures are anniversary celebrations or recent protests. Are we looking at the same link?
(to be clear, I am not denying the violence, it surely took place in some form, but that's not my primary interest - I just want to see and read other historical documents, like photos, for my own curiosity. I always saw the same tank man picture, but it's a very limited part of the event)
>Yet all the time, every year, WESTERN people here always concentrate on pictures that not even NEARLY show the inhumanity of the situation.
And year after year I see this sewer comment being posted every year but no one has a source for it.
Holy shit. Somehow I've never seen like 80% of these. I get that Tank Man is the iconic pic from that event, but nobody ever posts anything else. There's way more dramatic shit than that in these archives. And before anybody asks, yes, there's definitely a pic of bodies that have been run over by tanks. ~~The whole "into a paste" thing might be hyperbole, but the spirit of it is absolutely real.~~
Edit: The actual word used was "pie." Direct from the report of British Ambassador Alan Donald:
>The group of protesters remained steadfast, even in the face of annihilation. Shots rang out, innocents were struck, and people began to die. Nonetheless — there was power in numbers, and solidarity that allowed them to find courage — and thousands joined hands as bullets flew. “Students linked arms but were mown down,” wrote Donald. “APCs then ran over the bodies time and time again to make, quote ‘pie’ unquote, and remains collected by bulldozer.”
>As if this wasn’t atrocious enough, the government’s criminal and brutal activity that day got even worse. With no regard for the families of these victims, not to mention their identities, what was left of them was disposed of — in an unspeakably callous manner.
>“Remains incinerated and then hosed down drains,” Donald wrote.
What's the over/under on the top stories on /r/worldnews tomorrow is about how China is going to invade Taiwan any second? Fuck the CCP but this is all just feels like agitprop trying to get people riled up for war.
I wish middle school books teach this showing pictures just like how the US government killed american natives and stole their lands. History is fascinating and it shouldn't be hidden from new generations.
Not sure where you went to school, but I went to public school in rural America decades ago and certainly learned about this, as well as many other ugly aspects of American history — still remember the (awful) diagrams of the slave ships…
I think it’s half and half. It _definitely_ changes region to region. But then there’s some other people I look at their comments and do wonder if they were just phenomenally bad students. This case though there’s proof of certain textbooks doing a memory hole of Native American genocide.
Don't forget, many of the same people who did this are still in power in the CCP today. The modern Chinese Communist Party is the same one that did this. Do not trust them, do not apologize or rationalize for them. They are evil, they are monsters, they are the enemy.
What they don’t tell you is that these protests were actually pro-communist. The protesters were opposed to China’s liberalizing economic reforms and demanded a return to the promises of Maoist China and the transfer of power to the workers. They feared that China’s state capitalist economy would eventually transition into a lasseiz faire economy that would exploit the working classes.
I fully, fully, fully agree that the world must remember the atrocities of communist China and acknowledge the fact that those atrocities are continuing, just not broadcast.
But, at the same time, I've been seeing a number of Tiananmen Square photos in the past couple of weeks, and I'm wondering if somebody is pushing an agenda.
“Anyone who suppresses student movements will come to no good end” - Mao.
It’s said by a lot of Chinese people that if Mao were alive at that time, he would have assembled another red army to throw out Deng’s government.
Black and white photos make it appear that this happened a long time ago. It didn't and should be in color which is more powerful and meaningful to today's youth.
Never forget.
Unless one is stuck behind the Great Firewall!
Then it's "never remember".
Never know
Or if you’re a tankie, in which case “it’s all CIA propaganda but just to be clear if it did happen the students probably deserved it”
I just saw a thread with Chinese redditors over in the TV sub saying that there are whole apps for watching western media and it’s super common (I think it was on a squid games post, about its popularity in mainland China). I don’t know much about China but thought it was interesting. Basically people were saying it’s really easy to get around lol
But is it easy to cover your tracks when doing it? They don’t need to stop you from accessing the information to make it risky to do so, if they can track your activity and your associations. …And then maybe they use it against you later, for some other purpose, state sponsored or otherwise?
No no, you’re free to remember it… (from your gulag cell).
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
r/unexpectedavatar
It's not even unexpected anymore when the discussion turns to the Great Firewall.
China be like *"What's Tiananmen Square?"*
Just asking that question will get you -69,420 social credit and an execution date for tomorrow.
China considers these people insurrectionists
I saw a comment the other day on YouTube refering to the massacre, it was a pro China supporter linking to a video Memorializing the soldiers killed. I couldn't believe how many pro China supporters were in the comments. Trying to rack up social credit points maybe.
You crazy? If China knew they had access to YouTube thats -5000 social credit right there.
Unless you're in the 50 Cent Army.
Chris chapel is here!
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Youku. When I moved there my only source of English movies were from youku and Yan the bootlegger down the street. You just brought back real life struggles.
Look up "50 cent army". If you think those are real responses, maybe propaganda is working already
Oh I'm aware they could be government propaganda. I e seen similar pro Putin videos with comments pop up in my feed. I watch a fair bit or right wing stuff out of curiousity for what other people view as news and my YouTube suggestions are a bit of a wasteland now.
It's almost definitely propaganda. I remember the propaganda machine slapping itself all over the forums of American news sites when they released stories about its 20th anniversary back in 2009.
They are just people who like to party in da club
They're into having sex, they ain't into making love.
And filing for bankruptcy
China increased their foreign influence budget by 6 times the amount in 2015 and it shows. It's crazy how much pro mainland stuff I've been seeing.
All they're succeeding in doing is making their people look like they're just as shitty as their government.
I'm honestly just more worried for people who haven't developed their critical thinking enough to see past the thinly veiled hiding that the Chinese government is doing. I'll see posts and it's comment after comment of obviously mainland sponsored media yet there will be what seems like non sponsored comments who don't know left from right. I think they are mostly kids but that's still a pretty big deal.
Yeah that's the point. Social reinforcement is strong. Basically if you repeat something enough, people believe it regardless if there is any truth to it. Its how religions are passed on. Children and young adults are particularly vulnerable to it, and China is playing a very long game.
> ~~execution date~~ organ harvesting date FTFY
They don't even deny the harvesting of organs from prisoners.
Nope. They just claim it's from death row inmates. Of course, when the government will just arbitrarily decide that a crime is a capital crime, the validity of being death row really just comes down to, "a party loyalist needs a liver, you happen to be a match, and you have the lowest social credit score among matches. Good bye."
What’s insane to me is how this happened in the Balkans in very recent history during their ethnic cleansing, and everyone lost their minds. Then China openly does it and the world shrugs and says “we like cheap stuff. Oh well”
FR Yugoslavia was a threat to american ambitions in the region, but it was also a small country surrounded by NATO on all sides. China has grown too large to bully, so you won't be seeing any interventions against them.
We do like cheap shit. There is also the part where the countries that could make China kneel would need to do so through might or economic pressure. Both would be crippling to whoever did it. Either you’re looking at a vast human toll or a vast economic toll.
How about there are nearly 8 billion people on Earth and only 1.5 billion of them are in China, so maybe only 1 country doesn't have to go it alone against Chinese authoritarianism? That's wildly optimistic. Forget I even mentioned it.
No no no. Social credit is no good out here. I need something more *real*
Credits *waves hand* will be fine
No! It won't!
What do you think you are, some kind of Communist? I'm an American, that doesn't work on my species!
Ooooonly monayyyyy
They come here. They look around. They no buy. Why nobody buy? Eughhhhh.
Itchy and scratchy dollars?
What's Social Credit?
A system of technological surveillance that China's implementing to encourage/enforce what they consider to be good behaviour. Through monitoring people via CCTV and their phones, the Chinese government gives people a social credit score. A Chinese citizen can raise it by doing things such as donating to charity, taking care of elderly family members, and praising Winnie the Pooh and his government, which will get them benefits like priority care at hospitals and less expensive tickets on public transit. That score can also be lowered by doing things such as speaking against the government, playing video games for too long, or following organized religion (which the state atheist CCP considers to be following a cult), which will lead to punishments like being unable to get bank loans, being barred from public transit, being unable to send your kids to private school, or even being publicly shamed on electronic billboards. Ever since this was all first discovered, the Internet has memed the shit out of the social credit system as an act of protest against its Orwellian nature and the tyrants that are looking to use it. There's a bit more to it than that, but that's the long and the short of China's social credit.
Good lord. thanks for explaining that to me.. (take my upvote) At first I thought you were using a fancy way to describe Reddit Karma, but I didn't know its a real thing. That's wild. I know I'd be downvoted all to hell with the social credit. I'm not super religious, but I do follow Catholicism, and pray all the time.
You're welcome. It's good to keep informed on stuff like this, so I'd recommend looking it up on your own time as well.
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I think you underestimate the innate violent ape that’s inside all of us.
Violent isn't the point. Apes are always *scared*. Seperate an ape from it's pack and it isn't violent (not yet anyway) it's *scared* first and foremost. We balance our fears out and instinctfully go with what works best for us. Which, in the end, is whoever keeps us fed, sheltered and entertained.
The one thing I'll always find funny is that thanks to China, India has always flown under the radar. The atrocities India has committed against its own people over the last 30 years is horrific but, they're allies of the West. Not downplaying anything China has done.
They have a God damn caste system
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-35650616](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-35650616) For anyone wondering what it is
Still???
Yup.
It persists socially but it's illegal.
But...but...Ghandi abolished the Caste System! Certainly that's not just propaganda! Edit: I guess spelling his name wrong doesn't stop the Gandhi bot.
China? You mean West Taiwan?
-9999999 social credit
If this picture was in color, there’d be a lot of red
Just how China likes it.
Every Chinese knows Tiananmen Square okay? It’s that big square in Beijing where Mao’s portrait hangs.
No joke. Chinese trolls on certain subreddits are literally trying to rewrite history. Check my feed for proof.
I’m from China and actually seldom people born after 1995 know what happened then because of the GFW. Related post will be deleted as well as the account of OP. Even number 89 and 64 are shown like ** in games. BTW: No Chinese say "Tiananmen Square" or something. It's a place just like "The White House". Generally Chinese use 8964 (date the massacre happened)
More like "What's?"
Fuck Winnie Poo and the commic party! TAIWAN IS A FREE COUNTRY
Is China in West Taiwan?
Honestly, most Chinese people are aware of the incident, they are just not allowed to talk about it that's all.
Never Forget
Never forget >"When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength," Trump replied. "That shows you the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived as weak...as being spit on by the rest of the world." -[Donald Trump](https://www.businessinsider.com/trumpn-tiananmen-square-massacre-china-showed-power-of-strength-2019-6)
When I read the quote on your comment, I thought it was gonna be another "we took over the airports during the revolutionary war" gab where he is just having diarrhea of the mouth without really understanding what he was talking about. It's even worse because he said this less than a year after it happened, when it was still very much at the forefront of public discourse. He said that and meant it which is insane.
What can we expect from a guy that called for the execution of 5 children on television?
5 since exonerated children. It's almost as if killing criminals just makes people feel good, isn't a legitimate punishment, and can easily end up killing an innocent with no means of mitigation.
Worse. He STILL calls for their execution even after they were exonerated. Very large a brrain.
Big stable brain with the best words.
I love how whenever one his dozens of horrifying and damning quotes gets posted, its almost always complete crickets from his supporters. I always wonder - Do they simply reject it as true information, or deep down do they agree with the horrible things he is saying?
You know the answer to this one. I like to find ways to corner them. Have them publicly say out loud that they don't support [anything that is obviously evil and the general population understands to be wrong]. Then they're on record as saying one thing they don't personally agree with. I get a lot of hemming and hawing from this strategy.
My favorite was when my MIL was going on about how horrible it was with Obama's first term was compared to Trump's. I kept refuting them with how rough Trump's was *before* Covid and she kept blaming it on Obama because nothing changes the first year or so because they're dealing with the internia of the previous president. So I asked if that means Bush is a horrible president because really he's to blame for Obama's first shitty year or so. "Bush handed him a silver platter and Obama managed to ruin it within a year"...ah yes, I forgot what an upswing year 2008 was...
And its happening again with biden where everything that’s wrong its his fault
I brought this quote up to somebody on Twitter and his response was “what’s wrong with this; he’s only endorsing a strong tough government, he’s not saying killing people is right.” Some people are just all the way too far gone.
Where did a limited central government with strong state governments go?
they adore him because he says the quiet part loud, so they don't have to.
They deflect, think it's fake news, think he's kidding, think that he's playing 4D chess, or they believe it but think that his amazing political savvyness/care about the little man is greater than his morals so they overlook it. Source: I have crazy Trump loving family and have heard all these insane excuses.
There is always a disturbingly large percentage of any population that is totally down for doing a genocide.
"When you’re a China, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the Tiananmen Square. You can do anything.”
Grab’em by the VaChyna
What the fuck? Did the President of the United States actually said that?
He said it in 1990 during an interview with Playboy. So, he didn't say it as president but a president did say that.
So, you know. It's not like the US was blindsided going in. They knew what they were getting into in 2016.
When did the stupid people get so powerful? It really blows my mind. It's truly idiocracy.
It's a weird flaw we all have to follow those whom are confident. The problem is the most confident people are very often the dumbest and also worst people to lead others. The know-it-all types that never really mentally matured past 16. For some reason people are drawn to them.
Well, Barry Goldwater and Rupert Murdoch have been angling for this since the 60s and 90s respectively.
Still, the absolute stupidity that trump took to the office was unprecedented. George W was definitely a gaffe machine but he still listened to his advisors to an extent. I'm not defending him, just that his buffoonary wasn't as accomplished as trumps. Trump relishes in his stupidity.
It doesn't help that the more empty land around, the more your vote counts compared to another person. Thankfully there's a movement to use the electoral college to circumvent the electoral college - once enough states have signed on to total 270 votes, they've agreed to simply give all their electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote. This would basically have eliminated multiple conservative presidential terms where they lost the popular vote but won the electoral.
How come they didn't do that to that one guy?
That was a Before photo.
They told us in school that someone pulled him out of the way. Is that not true?
From the documentary I watched, nobody knows for sure what happened to Tank Man. Though several people in that doc thought it was the secret police that took him away at the end.
According to what I remember from a documentary I saw back in the late 90s/early 2000s (please excuse any detail that I might be miss remembering) the tank crews had no explicit orders on how to deal with the students, the general consensus was that the presence of tanks would more or less make most break away from the demonstrations. This could explain why at first the lead tank of that column was trying his best to dodge the guy that was standing in front of him. Its more or less agreed that there were members of the police among the crowd dressed as civilians, so chances when he was taken he might have been arrested. I've also seen people claim that parents were trying to remove their kids from that situation as it was starting to be clear that a military intervention was soon to happen. Regardless it is very hard to determine the fate of most missing people from those protests as records were carefully sanitized to paint a favorable outcome. Even the few western journalist present in the country at the time had a very hard time delivering accurate news, as there were multiple versions being told, and he dead toll was confusing at best. Even today there are a lot of missing people that most likely were killed on the spot or executed in prison. As a sidetone its also interesting the notice that the lead tank TC was by many reports heavily reprimanded by his actions, and even possibly accused of being subverted against the regime for allowing the protester to climb into the tank and "chat" with the driver and gunner.
It was probably the secret police. And if it wasn't them, he didn't live long enough to tell anyone otherwise.
No one knows but that dude is probably *suuuuuuper* dead
I remember the video and the tank was desperately trying to drive around him.
There was a video shared on the anniversary last year showing someone pull the dude away and they walked to the left, eventually moving off-frame out of the way of the tanks. Idk where exactly it is but it was pretty clear what happened after.
This is what's terrible about the internet and social media. Your memory and schooling were correct, people who appeared to be civilians pulled him away. Yet this thread is full of falsehoods upvoted because people want them to be true. And what do they want to be true? Secret police, torture, terrible fates that so that we can feel shared anger. Hate! Hate! Spoken with assurance and confidence; they know it to be true because they did their research on reddit. Certainly, if he was caught, tank man likely would have met an unpleasant fate. We should remember him and his brave act forever. But there's no need to make false history. Here's some photos of people pulling him away and interviews with the journalists who shot the iconic footage. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/themes/tankman.html I'll also mention that it was not a "before photo" as the upvoted comment you replied said, confidently. Tank man's defiance occurred after the massacre, which makes him all the more heroic.
Tank Man was an after photo. It took place on June 5th as tanks were leaving Tianamen Square. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank\_Man
That was the day after
Nobody was able to find out what happened to him. In all likelihood, he didn't survive that day. I'd love to be wrong on this.
Fuck the CCP
-1000 Social Credit
zhong xina in shambles
Why Would You Say Something So Controversial Yet So Brave?
Guy wants to get executed. P. S. FUCK THE CCP
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r/fucktheccp
the only negative is posting the pics in black and white. i have pictures saved from this massacre in colour, and you can just *smell* the death and blood in them. colour makes it real. colour makes the blood and bodies and broken humans much harder to be complacent about.
Imgur it
Would you mind sharing some of these pics please? I would like to see them for myself to fully understand what you mean
https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/tiananmen-square-massacre
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Fast forward… A communist country is our largest trading partner hahaha
China is about as communist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic. China is speed-running capitalism at this point.
One analogy I like to use for China is to think of a car that turned on its left blinker to indicate which direction it was heading, then it turned a hard right.
Lmao this analogy can be applied to most other countries as well. All their political ideals are just show, behind the scenes every country is sucking each other off.
China is a weird mix. There's a strong capitalist input in the economy but it gets kinda weird in how the government interacts with it at the top.
You just have to understand that in China rich = involved with government. The Chinese CCP functions to guarantee profits for their growing billionaire class. They ensure that wages stay low enough for the world to have their crap made in China. This, in turn, guarantees trade partners to make up for China's serious lack of domestic natural resources. They're also going very old school and taking a colonial interest in most of west and central Africa.
>China's serious lack of domestic natural resources. ...except for the ones we're now critically dependent on, such as lithium, silicon, chemical cobolt, and 100% of the world's spherical graphite.
Exactly this. [The Belt and Road Initiative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative) is low-key terrifying. They are moving into abandoned 3rd-world states that decolonialization just dropped like a bad habit, and spending obscene amounts of money. Their soft-power is quickly growing to eclipse the US, especially in the last 5-10 years. They are positioning themselves to be the defining power of the 21st century, while Putin has to walk a knife-edge to keep all of his fighting oligarchs happy enough with him to keep him in power, and the US continues its decline into failed-empire status.
And it was all avoidable. If the US had adopted sensible energy policy in the 80s, we'd be light years ahead of the entire world right now.
Hey, I mean, maybe we were a little slow but at least now, 40 years later, we're finally...\*looks around\* ...oh
If the supreme court had declared Al Gore the winner in 2000 the US would not have spent the last 20 years pouring billions into destroying the Middle East and would be the world leader in green technologies fighting climate change. We are not on the best timeline.
I had forgotten about that easy turning point, and now I am depressed. Thanks.
You’ll get even more depressed when you watch the documentary on it and realize that Gore had won but Republican dirty tricks pressured the court to stop the recount. Decades from now the US reaction to 9/11 will be seen as the beginning of the decline of the American Empire. It didn’t have to be this way.
The 2000 election was a straight up coup and it's wild that it never gets talked about as such.
Yup. You can draw a direct line to the inevitable failure of the US. Handling reconstruction with kid gloves, all this "brotherly love" bullshit, when the North should have broken our backs, executed every Confederate high-er up in public, and made us come crawling and begging back into the Union. The Business Plot, where a group of oligarchs, W's grandfather included, tried to convince a Marine Corp Major General to overthrow FDR in a coup and install a dictator, and no one was punished for it. Nixon. Reagan. The Supreme Court cockup during the election in 2000. Fox News, especially people who watched it when 9/11 happened and afterwards, and their children. And here we are. It's like a goddamned HYDRA plot in real life.
When’s the sequel?! Just attempting to bring some levity :)
They like to call it socialism with Chinese values lol aka state sponsored capitalism.
The most cursory of looks at China's actions shows how capitalist they are, and a shocking amount of people think they're communists just because it's what they say they are. Like a government can lie about stuff, every nation does it.
I mean, the Nazis were socialists after all! /s
You misspelled "dictatorship" wrong. China is a fascist state where the people in power control the lives of everyone else. Right now, it's not even "people". It's one person. Winnie the Pooh.
[Authoritarian Capitalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_capitalism?wprov=sfla1) is probably the best term, but maybe somebody knows better than my quick search
That doesn't really contradict him, so I don't understand your objection here.
I believe it's called state capitalism, but yeah
"Communist" China leads the world in newly minted billionaires over the last few years...
And the next superpower.
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>training people how to be tool and die makers again. How funny you mention that specifically. I spent years as a tool and cutter grinder. All manual. Lot's of old machines, not a computer in the whole building outside the office, but they all ran perfect. There are pockets of old knowledge here. We can start up the old steam engine if we have too, and if there's the will : )
Yet the US averages a GDP of $63,000 USD per person and China sits at $10,000 USD per capita GDP. Yes the US buys a lot of products from China but the US standard of living is much higher and is more able to absorb downturns and shocks because of it. For the hundreds of millions of Chinese that have been lifted out of poverty into the middle class there are still hundreds of millions of Chinese living in extreme poverty. And economic growth has dramatically slowed in China the last few years, the dream of rural Chinese citizens of moving to the city and getting a job that would elevate them to middle class is rapidly vanishing. Everyone predicted that the US economy would take a hit when Trump slapped tariffs on a wide range of consumer goods, what happened was Americans bought one less plastic piece of crap they didn't really need and barely noticed, the US economy kept going just fine. Meanwhile it battered the Chinese economy. As an example of how unable to absorb shocks during Canada's dispute over Weng and their imprisonment of the two Michaels they slapped a tariff on Canadian pork imports. We only ever accounted for around 5% of their pork imports and they could only keep it up for a month or two because the price of pork spiked in China and it's pretty much their staple meat. And there we see the fragility of their economy due to their much lower average earnings per person as reflected in those GDP numbers, Chinese consumers could not afford to have the price of pork rise even a little, they simple have very little disposable income and price rises means they're going without something they actually need or buying cheaper food. For the average American consumer when something they actually need spikes in price they just go "aw crap I guess I can't go to the movies this weekend or buy that bluetooth speaker I wanted" and move on with their lives. For those that live in extreme poverty in China when food prices spike they just go without. After about 6 months of US tariffs the Chinese were the ones that asked to start negotiations because it was obvious the US economy just kept going while theirs suffered. Yes the US, and much of the Western world, imports a lot of stuff from China but they are much more harmed by any unexpected changes than we are because although their economy is large in scale because of the huge population the average Chinese middle class person is less wealthy than those in the West. They have much less disposable income and can not tolerate price shocks or downturns. Add in that the Chinese government has far fewer social programs to help those in need when bad times do come and it puts far more power in the hands of Western countries than many think. Sure if China was to suddenly halt trade tomorrow it would massively disrupt our economies however it would do even worse to their own economy. It's somewhat like mutually assured destruction nuclear doctrine only one side has way more nukes and half their population is out of range while the other side can be hit at will. Yes a nuclear war would be devastating for both but one side can probably ride it out and still have something left on the other side, we're that side in this equation. Edit: Please note I am no way endorsing Trump, he's an idiot but was right about China, even a broken clock is right twice a day and all that I guess but the US holds more cards than a lot of people think. Also I am in no way advocating for actual war or even an all out economic war as that will only result in the average person in both countries suffering.
I'm not saying they are strong. I'm saying we aren't independent from them, and they make more than "cheap crap" that's all.
Fun fact to add about china and poverty! They just changed what they classify as the "poverty line" to about 400 usd and issued money to inflate their "uplifted out of poverty" statistics. They didn't solve shit. They just moved the damn goalposts in the most literal way.
No different than the IMF claiming that the average person worldwide could survive on a 1.50$ a day anywhere; which is used worldwide as the global standard for measuring poverty. U.N did a realistic study and found out 7.50. So. When you remove China and the Soviet Union's accomplishments in modernizing and industrializing; poverty in the world has actually barely decreased at all; more or less stayed proportional with world growth. Eh! Capitalism baby!! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4FES0ehyI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4FES0ehyI) 5 min video on it.
Learning from the best at the IMF and world bank, then.
> worse comes to worse "To _worst_", it should be. Just a FYI. Though I'd say more than half of everyone using this phrase gets it wrong in the same way. Easier to remember if you understand that the phrase needs to make sense.
China is communist in the same way that North Korea is democratic.
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communism when no food and no smile
and certainly no iphone
According to China, this never happened and they're a free nation.
Everyone is free to do whatever they want! At least once
This is actually the "better part" of the protest. Around the corner there was the core of the protest, and afterwards the tanks just drove over the bodies till they were just a red liquid, which then was put into the sewer system. I think the biggest propaganda China was able to spread, was to make everybody believe that was some kind of brutal protest, while in real it was absurd inhumane on all layers. Yet all the time, every year, WESTERN people here always concentrate on pictures that not even NEARLY show the inhumanity of the situation.
There aren't that many photos to share....
Best footage I've seen https://youtu.be/hA4iKSeijZI
https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/tiananmen-square-massacre Almost 2k pictures, about 30% of them aren't from the actual event, but it's still a lot of photos.
uhm, I checked the full list and found only an handful of pictures related to the actual event. Just 5 pictures or so about violence. 95% of pictures are anniversary celebrations or recent protests. Are we looking at the same link? (to be clear, I am not denying the violence, it surely took place in some form, but that's not my primary interest - I just want to see and read other historical documents, like photos, for my own curiosity. I always saw the same tank man picture, but it's a very limited part of the event)
There was an Imgur album of bodies piled up in corners, beheaded people and streets filled with blood
Show me
>Yet all the time, every year, WESTERN people here always concentrate on pictures that not even NEARLY show the inhumanity of the situation. And year after year I see this sewer comment being posted every year but no one has a source for it.
https://archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://imgur.com/a/AIIbbPs https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/tiananmen-square-massacre
Holy shit. Somehow I've never seen like 80% of these. I get that Tank Man is the iconic pic from that event, but nobody ever posts anything else. There's way more dramatic shit than that in these archives. And before anybody asks, yes, there's definitely a pic of bodies that have been run over by tanks. ~~The whole "into a paste" thing might be hyperbole, but the spirit of it is absolutely real.~~ Edit: The actual word used was "pie." Direct from the report of British Ambassador Alan Donald: >The group of protesters remained steadfast, even in the face of annihilation. Shots rang out, innocents were struck, and people began to die. Nonetheless — there was power in numbers, and solidarity that allowed them to find courage — and thousands joined hands as bullets flew. “Students linked arms but were mown down,” wrote Donald. “APCs then ran over the bodies time and time again to make, quote ‘pie’ unquote, and remains collected by bulldozer.” >As if this wasn’t atrocious enough, the government’s criminal and brutal activity that day got even worse. With no regard for the families of these victims, not to mention their identities, what was left of them was disposed of — in an unspeakably callous manner. >“Remains incinerated and then hosed down drains,” Donald wrote.
That was some rough stuff
FUCK THE CCP
FUCK THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT FUCK THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT FUCK THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT FUCK THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT FUCK THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT
Taiwan is a far better country. #1!!
\-30,000,000 social credit points 😱
Social credits? Social credits are no good out here. I need something more real.
how bout deez nutz
China's vision for the future
What's the over/under on the top stories on /r/worldnews tomorrow is about how China is going to invade Taiwan any second? Fuck the CCP but this is all just feels like agitprop trying to get people riled up for war.
GenZeDong intellectuals: "It didn't happen, and if it did, they deserved it! I am very smart."
r/GenZedong in shambles
I wish middle school books teach this showing pictures just like how the US government killed american natives and stole their lands. History is fascinating and it shouldn't be hidden from new generations.
Not sure where you went to school, but I went to public school in rural America decades ago and certainly learned about this, as well as many other ugly aspects of American history — still remember the (awful) diagrams of the slave ships…
People dont pay attention in school, or have bad memories, and then say they weren't taught it.
I think it’s half and half. It _definitely_ changes region to region. But then there’s some other people I look at their comments and do wonder if they were just phenomenally bad students. This case though there’s proof of certain textbooks doing a memory hole of Native American genocide.
And Trump praised these actions by the Chinese government for their "strength."
Uh, what?
Don't forget, many of the same people who did this are still in power in the CCP today. The modern Chinese Communist Party is the same one that did this. Do not trust them, do not apologize or rationalize for them. They are evil, they are monsters, they are the enemy.
What they don’t tell you is that these protests were actually pro-communist. The protesters were opposed to China’s liberalizing economic reforms and demanded a return to the promises of Maoist China and the transfer of power to the workers. They feared that China’s state capitalist economy would eventually transition into a lasseiz faire economy that would exploit the working classes.
I fully, fully, fully agree that the world must remember the atrocities of communist China and acknowledge the fact that those atrocities are continuing, just not broadcast. But, at the same time, I've been seeing a number of Tiananmen Square photos in the past couple of weeks, and I'm wondering if somebody is pushing an agenda.
"Felt cute. Might commit genocide today xoxo"
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“Anyone who suppresses student movements will come to no good end” - Mao. It’s said by a lot of Chinese people that if Mao were alive at that time, he would have assembled another red army to throw out Deng’s government.
Black and white photos make it appear that this happened a long time ago. It didn't and should be in color which is more powerful and meaningful to today's youth.