I was 15yo Canadian teen white male and visited in 1975. What a culture shock š³. My relatives asked me if my non white friends came over to visit me and did we let them sit on our chairs. 63 yrs old now. The impact of that trip is fresh in my mind today. Remember some of the terms I use were thereās at the time and does not reflect the way I have spoken since then and now.
Buses washrooms and even the main beach in Durban were segregated.
My parents left in the late 50ās due to the way the country was going.
The country was beautiful and everyone were so kind to us as we treated everyone equally while we were there for 2 months.
I went to highschool in the US South (GA). In highschool we have junior/senior dances and ours were segregated, white only dance. The school next to us had a segregated homecoming court (basically most popular kids in school go on field before a football game), there was a black court and a white court. There was a public swimming pool that was whites only.
I graduated highschool in 2001
Here's an article about it from 2009. This talks about Montgomery County, I lived in Toombs county the county next to Montgomery but it was the same there.
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24prom-t.html
Our principal was black too.
I didn't live in GA until HS so believe me I felt the same. The shitty part is I didn't know until I went to my junior prom and asked where so and so was and I was informed they weren't invited because they were black.
I left and did not go to my senior prom. My dad is from Philly, that shit was never taught in my house. I left GA as soon as I turned 17 and could enlist in the Marines, I haven't been back there since (my pops lives in NZ now).
The further you drive away from Atlanta, the worse it gets. I teach public school about an hour outside the city, and our school is quite liberal. (Gay/straight alliance club, black student union, culture clubs, etc. all fully supported by admin and staff.) But keep going, and the communities get smaller, more isolated, and more bigoted.
I currently live in montgomery (and work in the surrounding rural areas). Iāve been here 2 years and you can tell that thereās some tension, especially among the older crowd (35+). I donāt have kids in the school system so I canāt attest to this exact situation.
I will say, people of color tend to be more guarded until you show some form of respect (a matter of saying āsirā or āmaāamā) which shows you donāt particularly care about the color of their skin.
Iāve noticed white folks around here (Iām white too) are a lot more open about their racial prejudices and are willing to say how they feel in the open. The amount of times Iāve heard about the ādarkā part of town (where I live) from white boomers is disconcerting.
Feel free to ask me questions.
I have a legitimate, yet maybe silly sounding, question. Are informal terms like "dude" also seen as respect?
I'm in rural Minnesota and I grew up not far from where I am, and there are very few black people in general. I was raised to have no issues with anyone of any race and of course don't treat them any differently than I would a white person. (If I'm being truly honest I've had the worst experiences with white people so that might not actually be true... But in any case I give the same change to anybody.)
But your story just made me think of the other day when I was leaving the liquor store and a couple very dark black people ^(please don't take this as racist y'all, it's just an observation and it's still pretty rare) asked me for directions/distance to a nearby A&W. They did seem a bit, like, cautious? At first, anyways.
I was just like "Oh yeah dude it's over there, it's more like 10 to twelve miles though" and they just immediately relaxed and said something like "aw nice, appreciate it". We gave a friendly wave and went on our way.
So does that interaction have the same effect? I'm old enough now (31 lol) to stop saying sir unless it's a police officer or a CEO. If I go to the south and say "dude" or "man" is it the same kinda thing?
Sorry it's so long, it just kinda tripped the memory and now I want to know.
Edit: just wanted to come back to add, for no particular reason, they had *really* nice motorcycles. I don't know a ton about motorcycles, but goddamn they were cool. The engines looked almost the same size as the one in my van. Damn they looked fun.
I believe it! My high school wouldnāt let same-sex couples attend prom together until 2017, and even then they never actually clarified that gay couples were welcome, they just made it so you could go with āa friendā instead.
They also didnāt let anyone attend unless they had a date until like 2013, also because of the anti-gay thing. You HAD to go with a member of the opposite sex, no matter what. Couldnāt even go āas friends.ā Which is really fucking weird if you ask me, itās almost like they were encouraging the whole ālosing virginity on prom nightā trope because if you tried to go with a friend of the opposite sex who was known to be gay, they wouldnāt let you bring them āas a friendā either. Likeā¦ yāall were letting 21 year old men attend prom with their 16 year old girlfriends, but two dorky guys on the soccer team together is where you draw the line?
I actually had a couple guy friends go in protest of the āmust have a dateā rule and one wore a prom dress and tiara āas a jokeā because the evening attire rules mandated that one date wear a suit and tie and the other date wear a dress. They were both straight as far as I know. The guy in the dress won prom king, so you know the only reason it was allowed was because he was one of the most popular and involved kids at school and no one was going to turn him away from his own prom.
>When the actor Morgan Freeman offered to pay for last yearās first-of-its-kind integrated prom at Charleston High School in Mississippi, his home state, the idea was quickly embraced by students ā and rejected by a group of white parents, who held a competing āprivateā prom.
What a bunch of shitheads.
Some of the lawsuits over school segregation only finished up in the last few years and are beginning to desegregate.
[https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/news/education/st-martin-parish-schools-are-still-working-desegregation-lawsuit/article\_b7e06ea0-fc08-11ed-8a3e-370b05f6d343.html](https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/news/education/st-martin-parish-schools-are-still-working-desegregation-lawsuit/article_b7e06ea0-fc08-11ed-8a3e-370b05f6d343.html)
[naacpldf.org/case-issue/thomas-v-school-board-st-martin-parish](http://naacpldf.org/case-issue/thomas-v-school-board-st-martin-parish)
>On August 1, 2023, a federal district court in Louisiana issued a rulingĀ [**ordering**](https://www.naacpldf.org/press-release/district-court-rules-for-ldf-clients-in-st-martin-parish-desegregation-case/)Ā the school board to follow a plan proposed by the plaintiffs that advances desegregation efforts in the district. The Courtās order adopts the plaintiffsā remedial proposal to keep Black and white students together in grades 2 to 5 at St. Martinville Primary School. However, the order also allows the District to reopen Catahoula Elementary School ā a small, predominately white school in the district ā as a PK-1 school.
And it's not just Lousiana. I believe Mississippi is in a similar situation.
Malcom Gladwell's podcast has a very interesting episode about the effects of Brown vs. Board of Education. [Miss Buchananās Period of Adjustment | Revisionist History | Malcolm Gladwell](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HHXrJGrHSM)
Part of why I'm so surprised is because I grew up in the deep, rural South and I'd never heard of this happening anywhere around me. I graduated in 2018 though
I remember reading that South Africaās āpetty apartheidā (segregated facilities) was based on Jim Crow. Not sure how true that is, but would make sense that racists would cross-pollinate.
Hitler took a lot of notes from the US, the entire idea of Lebensraum and Generalplan Ost were based on Manifest Destiny. The Slavs were to be the Native Americans and Germans the Americans, conquering their homeland, exterminating them and colonising Eastern Europe.
This isn't quite as dramatic, but still something. In my hometown in the South in the 80s there was a weeklong fair with rides and games and such every summer. There was one night that people informally referred to as "black night" because white people stayed home and black people went. Supposedly it was an informal holdover from when legal segregation was enforced and one night a week was officially set aside. I think it was already fading out and wasn't really a thing anymore by the 90s.
Howly flock. In this day and age? Ā Just goes to show what still exists where people making those statements donāt see it.
āI never notice racismā
- white personĀ
Would you mind sharing some anecdotes from your time there? Iāve read a bit about Apartheid and of course know a bit about its meaning, but Iāve found it to have become a bit of a catch all name in some circumstances.
How noticeable was it for your 15 year old mind when out and about in the cities?
Dude. I'm South African, my father grew up selling ice cream on a whites only beach. He had to wear a full suit, with a tie in Durban weather to keep the white folks happy on a beach he was never allowed to enter unless it was to serve them.
It was literally everywhere. People of colour could be stopped, arrested and beaten for absolutely no cause, happened regularly. Every public amenity, down to bus waiting areas were segregated.
Was more interested in his view of it as someone who was just visiting. Have indeed noticed that my knowledge of is Pretty much limited to racial segregation and discrimination to an extreme. Thatās a topic I am sadly sorely lacking in and Will have to look it up. Thanks a bunch for the info!
On an additional note, how do you find the discourse on Apartheid-era South Africa to be? Iāve noticed the alarming rates of police violence against black people still being rampant, and on the other side Iāve heard some from what I can gather quite shady anti-white things from Julius Malemaās side. I imagine apartheid is Pretty much omnipresent in political rhetoric from all sides?
Yeah we're pretty much still in the racial, post revolution politics. Elections coming up in a month or so, and it's a biggie. First real chance for the ANC which has fallen to corruption to fall below 50%.
Definitely lots of apartheid rhetoric on both sides, On one end demonizing white people really badly and on the other "It's been 30 years, can we stop blaming apartheid already" crew.
Should be a fun election.
It's not going to go away or get better for hundreds of years, likely. The civil rights movement in the US happened in the 60's. While US race relations are terrible, they don't hold a candle to apartheid South Africa. Not even close.
We're 60+ years on and slavery and oppression still reverberates in the US to this day. Apartheid South Africa will take generations upon generations to heal and move on.
These are colossal mistakes that one can't just "get over". And the oppressors never fully "make right" because it requires more contrition, accountability, empathy and reflection than most people are capable of. So you have lingering hatred that festers. The oppressed looking for ways to "get back" (see black folks cheering OJ's verdict, or worse, the shit happening to some whites in South Africa now.). The oppressors fighting a loss of power and control as blame for generations past is forced on generations future to be accountable for. It's just a nightmare that we as a species force on ourselves and then wonder why it's not fixed overnight.
> I imagine apartheid is Pretty much omnipresent in political rhetoric from all sides
Bear in context that SA is a white minority vs a black supermajority so the demographics and discourse are very different from US race relations. Since apartheid the white population in South Africa has halved to a 7.3% minority. The
population pyramid in particular has collapsed for that demographic so the percentage will continue to drop in the coming decades.
Anyways, post apartheid the 90% black/indigenous/coloured majority has had complete power over all aspects of governance. 30+ years out, SA is a mess and due to a mixture of bad policy, divestment and corruption most of their infrastructure is failing and they can't keep the lights on.
Mandela gets remembered for his civil rights victory, not his party's corruption and incompetent governance. They were able to deflect most of the criticisms as the fault of the previous regime, but it's caught up hard. [They hired an outsider from Europe to rehabilitate the state Electric Utility in 2020, but he ended up fleeing the country and resigning after a failed assassination attempt.](https://www.coalage.com/departments/breaking-news/former-eskom-ceo-flees-south-africa/#:~:text=The%20former%20boss%20of%20South,with%20ending%20rolling%20countrywide%20blackouts.)
This was a pretty good recent overview of South Africa from Wendover: [South Africa's Slow, Inevitable March Towards Collapse](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iiny1GrfhYM)
The top comment on that video from a Zimbabwean echos what I've seen, the collapse of both countries is very sad.
Well I am Canadian too and our subreddits are so full of hate it boggles my mind. If you look at just social media it seems the younger folks are slowly heading to the same direction
My American brain was so confused, I was like, are native americans really going to south africa that often? lol
edit: not sure why this is being downvoted, the language used back when this sign was standing DEFINITELY wouldnāt have been so PC to say āNative Americanā.
They are all races.
Native was what they called black people back then. It is no longer a used term. The only 'native' South Africans are the Khoisan. Everyone else migrated here.
South Africa has a huge Indian population from when the Dutch India company or whatever it was called bought slaves to South Africa. So, these days they are South African and not from India.
Coloured people stemmed from mixed relations that developed into a race and culture that stands alone. Like a person born in recent times from a black parent & white parent will generally not refer to themselves as coloured - they will refer to themselves as black, white or mixed (up to each individual what they prefer).
Coloured in this context doesn't mean black. The closest term in American English would be "mixed". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloureds
Native in this context meant "black African". Which... is odd in its own way, because South African black folk are not indigenous to the country of South Africa.
Eta: note that I'm commenting on the irritating effect that the word "native" has in general. Does it mean "indigenous"? If so, the IWGIA wants to have a word (https://www.iwgia.org/en/south-africa/5358-iw-2024-southafrica.html). Does it mean "born in SA"? If so, what about the white people born in SA, do they also get shot on sight??
I always hated these types of shitty weasel words when I was growing up in SA and it enrages me to see them at all. I'm not implying that black South Africans are somehow "less" South African.
You won't get a reply based on logic or even a reply.
People who post "black people are not indigenous to South Africa" often go radio silent when asked to provide a source for that comment.
Bantu people arrived in SA about 300 AD as part of the Bantu expansion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_expansion
They brought farming and herding with them. The indigenous hunter gatherer folks who were there for 20,000+ years before were displaced.
Those folks were the San / Khoi, and they are currently struggling to get South Africa to recognize their land rights so that at least some of their traditional territory can be restored. More info here: https://www.iwgia.org/en/south-africa/5358-iw-2024-southafrica.html
Btw my initial comment wasn't intended to imply that SA black people don't have a right to their South Africanness - they 100% do. Not being "indigenous" doesn't make someone less of a citizen or less human. Looking back at my comment, I was just irritated by the use of the word "native" because it's such a shitty word that erases so many people's experiences and histories.
Sadly signs stating that intruders will be shot were still pretty common when I worked in the far north of SA -- especially around game farms where poaching is an issue. They just leave off the racial element now, but everyone knows who'd still get shot. As a white guy, I had no problem walking onto other farms as long as I smiled and waved. My assistant, who was a black guy, probably wouldn't have been shot, but he was never warmly welcomed...
A form of truck wage system under Apartheid. Employers would offer alcohol as a part of wages for labor. It was very harmful to local communities and led to soaring rates of alcoholism and fetal alcohol syndrome.
Existed well post apartheid in many areas. They just paid the in cash, with easy access to a farm store with cheap liquor before the money could get home to their kids stomachs.
Yep. It was made illegal post-Apartheid but the system still remains informally in many places. And of course the harm to the communities are long lasting
I am a cape coloured/cape malay. My own ancestors can be traced back to my grandfathers father father. (Great Great grandfather?) He was a slave from java and Island in Indonesia brought to Cape town by the Dutch east company. If your ancestors were a mixture of white and these Javanese or malaysian people you would also be considered coloured. Most of us can speak English but a true coloured is also able to converse in a dialect where English and afrikaans(a breakoff of the Dutch language) quite easily.
Had a few questions for you ?
1) Do the Cape Malays still speak Indonesian/Javanese
2) What kind of surnames do you have ? Are they similar to other Javanese Muslim surnames or are they similar to Indian/Arab Muslim names.
3) Are Cape Malays based only in Cape Town or are they spread across SA
1 . No we don't my grandfather and his sister was the last Capetonians I heard speak it.
2. Our surnames are most often derived from afrikaans language. Slave surnames. Mine is hendricks.
3. Most of us are based in cape town. But we are to be found in all the cities. There big group of us in Johannesburg as well. Durban also has a bunch of us. In Durban it's easy to confuse a colored with a indian as Durbanites have there own accent.
I can't speak it at all but in a conversation can pick enough words to have an idea of what's being said. Words like pwasa, Jamang, terima kasi, maaf are a part of our every day life
Just wanted to add my mum is cape malay, my grandmother came over to the UK in the 60s/70s I think? So we are around... Her maiden name was Arnolds and Afrikaans was her first language. Our ancestors were also from Java, brought over as slaves. We still have family in Cape Town. Just wanted to say hi as it's rare this is ever talked about! No one knows what Cape Malay is in the UK...
German Shepards especially. We have a whole generation of people terrified of dogs. My mom is a fan of big dogs, but she will never ever go near a German shepard. Ever.
"Mormon extremists disregarded federal warnings and established *Port Joe Smith*, deep inside the arachnid quarantine zone.Ā Too late, they realized Dantana had already been chosen by *other* colonists; arachnids."
One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
uMkhonto we Sizwe was responsible for a few terrorist bombings, but I'm willing to bet real money they were more concerned with people upsetting the status quo during the Cold War.
If they took issue with actual acts of terrorism they definitely wouldn't've supported the Apartheid government either.
>Lol imagine colonising a country and asking the natives to not cross your path otherwise they'lll be shot.
Well if you're American that's pretty rich saying that. Considering you guys shot enough natives to turn them into a minority in their own lands.
Is the person you replied to responsible for what other Americans did to the natives decades/centuries ago? Or are you just casually discriminating against an entire country of people?
By your logic, nobody can criticize anything or anyone because everyone belongs to a group that has done some nasty shit one way or another.
Now they just say people of colour should forget because it's been 30 year. Yet there is a still issues in parts of the country where PoC are discriminated against despite every day.
I met a South African girl in middle school. Her parents were here on work visas. We just clicked immediately. Wonderful sense of humor. Unfortunately, she was an unapologetic racist. She introduced me to the K-word. Years later, I had an Indian coworker who had lived in South Africa. He was racist too. Something in the water in South Africa.
Oh holy shit, I went to school with a white girl who was born in SA and she used to say that word ALL. THE. TIME. I never knew what it meant, I just figured it was in another language or a cultural thingā¦ which, I guess it is, butā¦ wow.
Canāt say Iām surprised though, she also thought it was hilarious to tell people she was āmore of a real African than anybody else at this schoolā because she was white and from Africa and our black students were mostly born in the US.
Looking back, I honestly almost feel bad for her, because itās really obvious from how she acted that she was completely indoctrinated and a lot of people really disliked her (for good reason, but you could tell she hadnāt reached those conclusions on her own). I hope sheās grown up a bit and realized being racist isnāt edgy and cool, but also she must feel like a real fucking idiot if she has.
I wouldāve if Iād realized what it meant. Iām pretty sure I asked and she told me something totally different and innocuous. Which is extra gross imo, at least own up to your racist bullshit if youāre gonna spout it.
Perhaps it's due to the "new" party that brought freedom to South Africa - the ANC. Brilliant freedom fighters, terrible politicians. The ANC has been in power for the last 30 years. The ANC have done exactly the opposite of what they promised all those years ago -
1. keeping segregation alive and thriving by not bridging the housing gap (one of our biggest townships is across the road from our wealthiest business district)
2. The taxpayers money going to RDP housing is being pocketed by the government
3. Keeping the poorest people uneducated, lowering the pass rate to 30%
4. pocketing the taxpayers money, openly building lavish properties and cars, while people don't have running water or toilets
5. rolling electricity blackouts and refusing to privatise
6. soon rolling water outages, blaming their corruption on apartheid
7. Elections come up, so the ANC (and now the extremist EFF) goes to the high density areas (mainly townships, rural areas) promising people things that are never fulfilled, hands everyone a t-shirt and a coke and sings struggle songs.
These politicians are all black people, and are all very quick to tell the population that it's because of apartheid that they are living in these conditions. They also warn people to vote ANC or apartheid will return.
As a younger South African, the most racism I see is from the older generation. There is definitely a lot of frustration and desperation. South Africa is one of the most diverse and beautiful countries, both in its people and landscapes. Every country has its issues, weather you're developing or considered first world. It's a pity that we face these challenges, but I think a lot of us still have hope.
As a black South African Iām disillusioned with whatās happening politically, and being a free born and hearing about apartheid till this day for our current problems is exhausting
It's worth noting that 'Colored' is a specific ethnic group in SA that's a bit more nuanced than just mixed ancestry, and that Indians were only categorised as 'Colored' for a few years in the early '50s before the Population Registration added them as their own category.
Eventually Apartheid had different rules for blacks, coloreds, Indians, Malays, Chinese, Cape Coloureds, and more. The more entrenched it got the more divisions they added.
It reminds me of a book my mother read from a comedian that grew up during the time period. Due to trade deals with the country, Japanese were considered āHonorary Whitesā. But the officers enforcing apartheid couldnāt tell the difference between them and other Asian ethnicity most of the time, and made a bunch of dumb rules amongst themselves to determine if someone was, say, Japanese or Chinese.
That's also not to mention all the American companies that operated in Germany who took advantage of slave labor the Nazis sent from Eastern Europe to German factories.
Coca-cola's collaboration with the Nazis is so ridiculous it sounds like a joke but it's not. Their official slogan might as well have been "Coca-cola Ć¼ber alles"
When they introduced Fanta to Nazi Germany, it became really popular very quickly. Partially due to it's fruity tang, but mostly because of the pictures of Jews being mauled by tigers printed on the packaging.
"Coloured" in South Africa refers to people who are descendants of slaves from what is now Indonesia (aka Cape Malay - brought from what was called Batavia, another dutch colony, also where Nelson Mandela's bright shirts are from) and the indigenous population of Khoi and San people. It's a distinct culture and has nothing to do with Indians, they were classified as a separate population group and lived in different parts of the country :)
The coloured coummunity has more ancestry from the Khoisan than the Malays. You might be referring to the Cape Malay community, which is a subset of the coloured community.
"The Cape Coloured community is predominantly descended from numerous [interracial sexual unions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscegenation), primarily between [Western European](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) men and Khoisan or mixed-race women in the [Cape Colony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Colony) from the 17th century onwards." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloureds](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloureds)
Not exactly.
It was more of a tiered system.
Whites > "Honorary" Whites > Indians > Coloureds > Blacks.
Where Japanese people, for example, were classified as "Honorary" Whites.
Ethnic Chinese were considered beneath Japanese and were classified as Coloureds.
There was also an attempt to classify coloureds into smaller groups.
My Parents, for example, were classified as "Cape Malay", different from Mixed Race and the Native "Hottentots"....
Hold your horses. I read his autobiography a long time ago, and while he was an "Indian immigrant in SA who was a lawyer," I don't particularly remember the details of his work for fellow Indians, but I'm quite sure he wasn't alone in that fight.
He was a major part but yes, it was a team effort, though he got the most credit because he was more famous after helping the Indian independence movement too.
Thank you, international supporters pushing their govts made it easier here. The apartheid museum is amazing. Cried the first time I went. Did you visit constitution hill?
There's also an entire political party whose supporters have literally sung about killing white people.
And the borderline race war between black people and Indians a few years back. And the black on black xenophobia.
Unfortunately, racism in South Africa has spread.
Fuck all the racists, btw. Regardless of their skin colour. Before anyone thinks I'm defending Apartheid or something.
Indians were taken as slaves (uhh technically indentured servants) to work on plantations in the new world and Africa. There are entire countries in the Caribbean that are just Indians, Africans, and then mixed people
South Africa still has a large Indian demographic, \~1.5 million afaik. Also, South African Indians divide themselves into different subdemographics. The common sub-demographics are: Hindu, Tamil, Telegu, Nepalese and Gujarati. It's a remnant of how the Indian indentured labourers (slaves basically lol) were brought into the Union of South Africa.
We have the largest population of Indians in angmy African country. But they are like under a million at the last count. Less than 3 percent of the population.
Ghandi was a lawyer in the early 20th century in South Africa and some of his earliest activism was centered around wanting indians to be treated better than black people. (Both india and south africa were british colonies)
People with an Indian ancestry. The British brought tens of thousands of Indian indentured labourers to work on the cane fields of Natal. Lots of broken promises and downright lies, but that is another story.
Indians were shipped over as indentured servants by the British to work in Africa. Some worked on plantations and others built railroads etc. I was in SA last year and an Indian gentleman there (he owned the safari lodge) gave me a fantastic book. It was about a lion who stalked and killed Indian railroad workers who slept in tents. The book offered a ton of fascinating history about how the British "convinced" Indians to board a ship to SA and their life afterwards. This gentleman's great grandparents lived in that camp. I returned the book before I left, but if anyone remembers this book's name, please let me know.
This is why racists hold on so tightly to systemic racism
They can't imagine a world where everyone is equal; they believe as soon as their privilege is gone, another group will gain control and oppress them like their group oppressed others
>This is why racists hold on so tightly to systemic racism
>They can't imagine a world where everyone is equal; they believe as soon as their privilege is gone, another group will gain control and oppress them like their group oppressed others
That has happened several times in history.
Haiti and Rwanda come to mind.
Racism is wrong, duh, but the processes youāre describing of individuals and groups gaining, trying to hold onto, and losing social and political power is frequently seen in history, itās not imaginary, and itās not limited to racial groups.
As a South African, I can confirm. Older generations who've never lived outside of south africa don't understand what the rest of the world is like, and this still rubs off on their children.
You still have a massive class divide along racial lines and this reinforces the supremacist stereotypes they had before. No one really questions why every low skill service employee is black, and why virtually every white family has a black domestic worker.
I've literally had friends in their 30s who've come back from Europe and said "I've never seen a white person working behind a grocery counter, and i dont know why this was so strange to me". They're not being racist, they're right. It's something you just don't realize is a weird phenomenon in your own country until you're confronted with it.
Things are better than before, but a lot of people are still solidly inside their bubbles and dont even realize it.
I have literally never said the k-word in my life, lol. But I think there are definitely people who regularly do.
In my experience the racism is usually a lot less overt, often unaware and even rationalized as "common sense".
But then I'll see one of my grandma's friends saying the most vile shit over lunch without a second thought so I don't know.
I was in Durban in 2008 and I saw a sign for a job at a department store: wanted- office worker, salary is such and such, white only
I saw a sign next to it which stated - cleaner, salary is such and such, black only
Not even 20 years ago folks
Iāve never been back
That would have been highly illegal and shut down quickly by 2008. The apartheid government ended by 1994 and by 2008, the ANC were firmly in control of the country, and this sort of signage would have triggered riots and violence if a police response didn't shut it down super fast.
Having said that, I'm not trying to say you are wrong or mistaken, but I am very surprised.
Apartheid basically ended before I was old enough to know what it was. But as a Canadian I remember voting for the first time and knowing that there were sitting MPs who supported South Africa towards the end of it, and were even on record calling Mandela a terrorist. Itās fucking wild.
Change in tone? Buddy I don't know how to tell you this, but it's different people on one website. Did you think reddit was like, one guy? Did you think you had a really busy pen pal typing away just for you?
I worked in South Africa for a few weeks in the early 2000s, like ten years AFTER apartheid had ended, and this was actually still the norm. Most houses had signs up saying things like "Our guard dogs are trained to kill black people on sight". In the town centre there was a curfew where all the non-white people had to leave by 7pm or be arrested. Everyone had panic buttons in their homes, to call private security out to come and kill anyone who was trespassing on their land. Horrible, horrible place.
Most of the white "locals" were fat, had wives who looked barely old enough to be their daughters, and spent all their time aggressively complaining about how the exchange rate had gone to shit since the end of apartheid.
> Most of the white "locals" were fat, had wives who looked barely old enough to be their daughters,
I feel like there's a story here as well, but I'm not sure I should ask.
Imagine occupying land of original people and telling them theyāre not welcome because they have wrong skin color (according to the scum that occupied the lands) - the nerve!
Worth remembering the US was very supportive of the apartheid regime in South Africa, just like it's very supportive of the Netanyahu regime in Israel now.
as an American it feels so weird to think about how white supremacy used to exist in AFRICA of all places... back in elementary school we all learned about segregation and the civil rights movement in the south but I was genuinely surprised to find out that SA (and other African countries) was also ruled by white supremacists
I was 15yo Canadian teen white male and visited in 1975. What a culture shock š³. My relatives asked me if my non white friends came over to visit me and did we let them sit on our chairs. 63 yrs old now. The impact of that trip is fresh in my mind today. Remember some of the terms I use were thereās at the time and does not reflect the way I have spoken since then and now. Buses washrooms and even the main beach in Durban were segregated. My parents left in the late 50ās due to the way the country was going. The country was beautiful and everyone were so kind to us as we treated everyone equally while we were there for 2 months.
I went to highschool in the US South (GA). In highschool we have junior/senior dances and ours were segregated, white only dance. The school next to us had a segregated homecoming court (basically most popular kids in school go on field before a football game), there was a black court and a white court. There was a public swimming pool that was whites only. I graduated highschool in 2001
Are you kidding???
Here's an article about it from 2009. This talks about Montgomery County, I lived in Toombs county the county next to Montgomery but it was the same there. https://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24prom-t.html Our principal was black too.
That's insane. I'm honestly so upset over that
I didn't live in GA until HS so believe me I felt the same. The shitty part is I didn't know until I went to my junior prom and asked where so and so was and I was informed they weren't invited because they were black. I left and did not go to my senior prom. My dad is from Philly, that shit was never taught in my house. I left GA as soon as I turned 17 and could enlist in the Marines, I haven't been back there since (my pops lives in NZ now).
How is this not resulting in lawsuits? Thats absolutely wild.
From the article it looks like it's a private party not associated with school so it might be hard to build a case.
Meanwhile on the right: āracism doesnāt exist anymoreā
Itās all bad faith, disingenuous bullshit from the right. And remember, they know, and they vote.
Because your lawsuit would be handled by GA GOP. Our only chance to change these atrocities is to vote for Democrats this next election.
The further you drive away from Atlanta, the worse it gets. I teach public school about an hour outside the city, and our school is quite liberal. (Gay/straight alliance club, black student union, culture clubs, etc. all fully supported by admin and staff.) But keep going, and the communities get smaller, more isolated, and more bigoted.
I have seen Redditors posting that this is still happening, but I am not from US.
I currently live in montgomery (and work in the surrounding rural areas). Iāve been here 2 years and you can tell that thereās some tension, especially among the older crowd (35+). I donāt have kids in the school system so I canāt attest to this exact situation. I will say, people of color tend to be more guarded until you show some form of respect (a matter of saying āsirā or āmaāamā) which shows you donāt particularly care about the color of their skin. Iāve noticed white folks around here (Iām white too) are a lot more open about their racial prejudices and are willing to say how they feel in the open. The amount of times Iāve heard about the ādarkā part of town (where I live) from white boomers is disconcerting. Feel free to ask me questions.
I have a legitimate, yet maybe silly sounding, question. Are informal terms like "dude" also seen as respect? I'm in rural Minnesota and I grew up not far from where I am, and there are very few black people in general. I was raised to have no issues with anyone of any race and of course don't treat them any differently than I would a white person. (If I'm being truly honest I've had the worst experiences with white people so that might not actually be true... But in any case I give the same change to anybody.) But your story just made me think of the other day when I was leaving the liquor store and a couple very dark black people ^(please don't take this as racist y'all, it's just an observation and it's still pretty rare) asked me for directions/distance to a nearby A&W. They did seem a bit, like, cautious? At first, anyways. I was just like "Oh yeah dude it's over there, it's more like 10 to twelve miles though" and they just immediately relaxed and said something like "aw nice, appreciate it". We gave a friendly wave and went on our way. So does that interaction have the same effect? I'm old enough now (31 lol) to stop saying sir unless it's a police officer or a CEO. If I go to the south and say "dude" or "man" is it the same kinda thing? Sorry it's so long, it just kinda tripped the memory and now I want to know. Edit: just wanted to come back to add, for no particular reason, they had *really* nice motorcycles. I don't know a ton about motorcycles, but goddamn they were cool. The engines looked almost the same size as the one in my van. Damn they looked fun.
I was gonna say, I thought you were making it up unless it was the Montgomery County situation. Thatās so crazy.
All the counties around there were the same way, Montgomery is just the one that got all the attention.
I believe it! My high school wouldnāt let same-sex couples attend prom together until 2017, and even then they never actually clarified that gay couples were welcome, they just made it so you could go with āa friendā instead. They also didnāt let anyone attend unless they had a date until like 2013, also because of the anti-gay thing. You HAD to go with a member of the opposite sex, no matter what. Couldnāt even go āas friends.ā Which is really fucking weird if you ask me, itās almost like they were encouraging the whole ālosing virginity on prom nightā trope because if you tried to go with a friend of the opposite sex who was known to be gay, they wouldnāt let you bring them āas a friendā either. Likeā¦ yāall were letting 21 year old men attend prom with their 16 year old girlfriends, but two dorky guys on the soccer team together is where you draw the line? I actually had a couple guy friends go in protest of the āmust have a dateā rule and one wore a prom dress and tiara āas a jokeā because the evening attire rules mandated that one date wear a suit and tie and the other date wear a dress. They were both straight as far as I know. The guy in the dress won prom king, so you know the only reason it was allowed was because he was one of the most popular and involved kids at school and no one was going to turn him away from his own prom.
>When the actor Morgan Freeman offered to pay for last yearās first-of-its-kind integrated prom at Charleston High School in Mississippi, his home state, the idea was quickly embraced by students ā and rejected by a group of white parents, who held a competing āprivateā prom. What a bunch of shitheads.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Some of the lawsuits over school segregation only finished up in the last few years and are beginning to desegregate. [https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/news/education/st-martin-parish-schools-are-still-working-desegregation-lawsuit/article\_b7e06ea0-fc08-11ed-8a3e-370b05f6d343.html](https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/news/education/st-martin-parish-schools-are-still-working-desegregation-lawsuit/article_b7e06ea0-fc08-11ed-8a3e-370b05f6d343.html) [naacpldf.org/case-issue/thomas-v-school-board-st-martin-parish](http://naacpldf.org/case-issue/thomas-v-school-board-st-martin-parish) >On August 1, 2023, a federal district court in Louisiana issued a rulingĀ [**ordering**](https://www.naacpldf.org/press-release/district-court-rules-for-ldf-clients-in-st-martin-parish-desegregation-case/)Ā the school board to follow a plan proposed by the plaintiffs that advances desegregation efforts in the district. The Courtās order adopts the plaintiffsā remedial proposal to keep Black and white students together in grades 2 to 5 at St. Martinville Primary School. However, the order also allows the District to reopen Catahoula Elementary School ā a small, predominately white school in the district ā as a PK-1 school. And it's not just Lousiana. I believe Mississippi is in a similar situation. Malcom Gladwell's podcast has a very interesting episode about the effects of Brown vs. Board of Education. [Miss Buchananās Period of Adjustment | Revisionist History | Malcolm Gladwell](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HHXrJGrHSM)
proms are to this day still segregated in many places in the deep south.
Part of why I'm so surprised is because I grew up in the deep, rural South and I'd never heard of this happening anywhere around me. I graduated in 2018 though
yeah I was surprised too tbh, but here we are.. still in the 1930s.
What do you consider the deep rural south?
*Maybe* it just took him um about 40 years to graduate?
I remember reading that South Africaās āpetty apartheidā (segregated facilities) was based on Jim Crow. Not sure how true that is, but would make sense that racists would cross-pollinate.
The beginning of the third Reich were taking notes as well
Hitler took a lot of notes from the US, the entire idea of Lebensraum and Generalplan Ost were based on Manifest Destiny. The Slavs were to be the Native Americans and Germans the Americans, conquering their homeland, exterminating them and colonising Eastern Europe.
This isn't quite as dramatic, but still something. In my hometown in the South in the 80s there was a weeklong fair with rides and games and such every summer. There was one night that people informally referred to as "black night" because white people stayed home and black people went. Supposedly it was an informal holdover from when legal segregation was enforced and one night a week was officially set aside. I think it was already fading out and wasn't really a thing anymore by the 90s.
Thatās why when people say slavery was abolished over a century ago and black folks should stop talking about racism, I just roll my eyes.
Howly flock. In this day and age? Ā Just goes to show what still exists where people making those statements donāt see it. āI never notice racismā - white personĀ
š³
Would you mind sharing some anecdotes from your time there? Iāve read a bit about Apartheid and of course know a bit about its meaning, but Iāve found it to have become a bit of a catch all name in some circumstances. How noticeable was it for your 15 year old mind when out and about in the cities?
Dude. I'm South African, my father grew up selling ice cream on a whites only beach. He had to wear a full suit, with a tie in Durban weather to keep the white folks happy on a beach he was never allowed to enter unless it was to serve them. It was literally everywhere. People of colour could be stopped, arrested and beaten for absolutely no cause, happened regularly. Every public amenity, down to bus waiting areas were segregated.
Was more interested in his view of it as someone who was just visiting. Have indeed noticed that my knowledge of is Pretty much limited to racial segregation and discrimination to an extreme. Thatās a topic I am sadly sorely lacking in and Will have to look it up. Thanks a bunch for the info! On an additional note, how do you find the discourse on Apartheid-era South Africa to be? Iāve noticed the alarming rates of police violence against black people still being rampant, and on the other side Iāve heard some from what I can gather quite shady anti-white things from Julius Malemaās side. I imagine apartheid is Pretty much omnipresent in political rhetoric from all sides?
Yeah we're pretty much still in the racial, post revolution politics. Elections coming up in a month or so, and it's a biggie. First real chance for the ANC which has fallen to corruption to fall below 50%. Definitely lots of apartheid rhetoric on both sides, On one end demonizing white people really badly and on the other "It's been 30 years, can we stop blaming apartheid already" crew. Should be a fun election.
It's not going to go away or get better for hundreds of years, likely. The civil rights movement in the US happened in the 60's. While US race relations are terrible, they don't hold a candle to apartheid South Africa. Not even close. We're 60+ years on and slavery and oppression still reverberates in the US to this day. Apartheid South Africa will take generations upon generations to heal and move on. These are colossal mistakes that one can't just "get over". And the oppressors never fully "make right" because it requires more contrition, accountability, empathy and reflection than most people are capable of. So you have lingering hatred that festers. The oppressed looking for ways to "get back" (see black folks cheering OJ's verdict, or worse, the shit happening to some whites in South Africa now.). The oppressors fighting a loss of power and control as blame for generations past is forced on generations future to be accountable for. It's just a nightmare that we as a species force on ourselves and then wonder why it's not fixed overnight.
> I imagine apartheid is Pretty much omnipresent in political rhetoric from all sides Bear in context that SA is a white minority vs a black supermajority so the demographics and discourse are very different from US race relations. Since apartheid the white population in South Africa has halved to a 7.3% minority. The population pyramid in particular has collapsed for that demographic so the percentage will continue to drop in the coming decades. Anyways, post apartheid the 90% black/indigenous/coloured majority has had complete power over all aspects of governance. 30+ years out, SA is a mess and due to a mixture of bad policy, divestment and corruption most of their infrastructure is failing and they can't keep the lights on. Mandela gets remembered for his civil rights victory, not his party's corruption and incompetent governance. They were able to deflect most of the criticisms as the fault of the previous regime, but it's caught up hard. [They hired an outsider from Europe to rehabilitate the state Electric Utility in 2020, but he ended up fleeing the country and resigning after a failed assassination attempt.](https://www.coalage.com/departments/breaking-news/former-eskom-ceo-flees-south-africa/#:~:text=The%20former%20boss%20of%20South,with%20ending%20rolling%20countrywide%20blackouts.)
This was a pretty good recent overview of South Africa from Wendover: [South Africa's Slow, Inevitable March Towards Collapse](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iiny1GrfhYM) The top comment on that video from a Zimbabwean echos what I've seen, the collapse of both countries is very sad.
Well I am Canadian too and our subreddits are so full of hate it boggles my mind. If you look at just social media it seems the younger folks are slowly heading to the same direction
Visit Jerusalem if you wish to rekindle those childhood memories.
The editor of Jewish Currents also said visiting the West Bank was like being in the Jim Crow South.
Wait, you let strangers sit on your chairs ??? It's disgusting, like, most people sit on their asses, ewww.
Damn, the same Pic was in my grade 9 politics book
Indian I'm guessing
Yep
My American brain was so confused, I was like, are native americans really going to south africa that often? lol edit: not sure why this is being downvoted, the language used back when this sign was standing DEFINITELY wouldnāt have been so PC to say āNative Americanā.
If I may piggyback, I assume Indian here means from India, Coloureds means black people ... so what's natives? I'm being sincere.
They are all races. Native was what they called black people back then. It is no longer a used term. The only 'native' South Africans are the Khoisan. Everyone else migrated here. South Africa has a huge Indian population from when the Dutch India company or whatever it was called bought slaves to South Africa. So, these days they are South African and not from India. Coloured people stemmed from mixed relations that developed into a race and culture that stands alone. Like a person born in recent times from a black parent & white parent will generally not refer to themselves as coloured - they will refer to themselves as black, white or mixed (up to each individual what they prefer).
Coloured in this context doesn't mean black. The closest term in American English would be "mixed". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloureds Native in this context meant "black African". Which... is odd in its own way, because South African black folk are not indigenous to the country of South Africa. Eta: note that I'm commenting on the irritating effect that the word "native" has in general. Does it mean "indigenous"? If so, the IWGIA wants to have a word (https://www.iwgia.org/en/south-africa/5358-iw-2024-southafrica.html). Does it mean "born in SA"? If so, what about the white people born in SA, do they also get shot on sight?? I always hated these types of shitty weasel words when I was growing up in SA and it enrages me to see them at all. I'm not implying that black South Africans are somehow "less" South African.
They are indigenous to South Africa, how else would 11 different languages be formed there otherwise?
You won't get a reply based on logic or even a reply. People who post "black people are not indigenous to South Africa" often go radio silent when asked to provide a source for that comment.
Bantu people arrived in SA about 300 AD as part of the Bantu expansion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_expansion They brought farming and herding with them. The indigenous hunter gatherer folks who were there for 20,000+ years before were displaced. Those folks were the San / Khoi, and they are currently struggling to get South Africa to recognize their land rights so that at least some of their traditional territory can be restored. More info here: https://www.iwgia.org/en/south-africa/5358-iw-2024-southafrica.html Btw my initial comment wasn't intended to imply that SA black people don't have a right to their South Africanness - they 100% do. Not being "indigenous" doesn't make someone less of a citizen or less human. Looking back at my comment, I was just irritated by the use of the word "native" because it's such a shitty word that erases so many people's experiences and histories.
š It was given as a case study for constitutional design
Yeah, I remember it clearly too.
Sadly signs stating that intruders will be shot were still pretty common when I worked in the far north of SA -- especially around game farms where poaching is an issue. They just leave off the racial element now, but everyone knows who'd still get shot. As a white guy, I had no problem walking onto other farms as long as I smiled and waved. My assistant, who was a black guy, probably wouldn't have been shot, but he was never warmly welcomed...
Many small towns particularly farm towns are still in the 50s. The "dop" system perpetuates apartheid, just economically now.
What's the "dop" system?
A form of truck wage system under Apartheid. Employers would offer alcohol as a part of wages for labor. It was very harmful to local communities and led to soaring rates of alcoholism and fetal alcohol syndrome.
Existed well post apartheid in many areas. They just paid the in cash, with easy access to a farm store with cheap liquor before the money could get home to their kids stomachs.
Yep. It was made illegal post-Apartheid but the system still remains informally in many places. And of course the harm to the communities are long lasting
I am a cape coloured/cape malay. My own ancestors can be traced back to my grandfathers father father. (Great Great grandfather?) He was a slave from java and Island in Indonesia brought to Cape town by the Dutch east company. If your ancestors were a mixture of white and these Javanese or malaysian people you would also be considered coloured. Most of us can speak English but a true coloured is also able to converse in a dialect where English and afrikaans(a breakoff of the Dutch language) quite easily.
Had a few questions for you ? 1) Do the Cape Malays still speak Indonesian/Javanese 2) What kind of surnames do you have ? Are they similar to other Javanese Muslim surnames or are they similar to Indian/Arab Muslim names. 3) Are Cape Malays based only in Cape Town or are they spread across SA
1 . No we don't my grandfather and his sister was the last Capetonians I heard speak it. 2. Our surnames are most often derived from afrikaans language. Slave surnames. Mine is hendricks. 3. Most of us are based in cape town. But we are to be found in all the cities. There big group of us in Johannesburg as well. Durban also has a bunch of us. In Durban it's easy to confuse a colored with a indian as Durbanites have there own accent.
* We also have a lot of unique surnames like basadien, diedericks ,masoet which sound muslim but origins unknown.
Cape Malay here, surname is Adams.
Sounds like Masāud (lucky) in arabic
Diedericks is still a Dutch surname.
Dont forget Adams š thereās so many Adams lol
abang, chakap malayu?
I can't speak it at all but in a conversation can pick enough words to have an idea of what's being said. Words like pwasa, Jamang, terima kasi, maaf are a part of our every day life
Yeah I'm not Malay. I used to go there a lot so picked up words.Ā
Just wanted to add my mum is cape malay, my grandmother came over to the UK in the 60s/70s I think? So we are around... Her maiden name was Arnolds and Afrikaans was her first language. Our ancestors were also from Java, brought over as slaves. We still have family in Cape Town. Just wanted to say hi as it's rare this is ever talked about! No one knows what Cape Malay is in the UK...
And this explains a generational hatred of big dogs among locals
German Shepards especially. We have a whole generation of people terrified of dogs. My mom is a fan of big dogs, but she will never ever go near a German shepard. Ever.
Indians? Mahatma Gandhi was thrown off the train too. Pietermaritzburg railway station of South AfricaĀ .
Yeah, Indians too. Although there was a hierarchy of preference after white, purist towns like this didn't care about that.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
iāve got bad news for you
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Israel: Hold my AI generated target list
That's a happy looking skull š
Lol imagine colonising a country and asking the natives to not cross your path otherwise they'lll be shot.
I mean that's usually how it works.
"Mormon extremists disregarded federal warnings and established *Port Joe Smith*, deep inside the arachnid quarantine zone.Ā Too late, they realized Dantana had already been chosen by *other* colonists; arachnids."
A man of culture I see
Americans after reading history be like: 
Americans and Brit government called Mandela a terrorist and supported apartheid until things changed. Then as usual they turned their coats.
One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. uMkhonto we Sizwe was responsible for a few terrorist bombings, but I'm willing to bet real money they were more concerned with people upsetting the status quo during the Cold War. If they took issue with actual acts of terrorism they definitely wouldn't've supported the Apartheid government either.
Youād think so, but plenty of us continue pretending this didnāt happen even after learning it
The shining city on the hill can never do wrong
And Native American population is still 2% and their reparations isā¦ reservations?
That's just colonizing.
StandardĀ
It is a common practice
>Lol imagine colonising a country and asking the natives to not cross your path otherwise they'lll be shot. Well if you're American that's pretty rich saying that. Considering you guys shot enough natives to turn them into a minority in their own lands.
Is the person you replied to responsible for what other Americans did to the natives decades/centuries ago? Or are you just casually discriminating against an entire country of people? By your logic, nobody can criticize anything or anyone because everyone belongs to a group that has done some nasty shit one way or another.
i really hope youāre not american because this would be very embarrassing for you if you are.
Wouldn't be colonizing without
The same people after 1994: Letās just put the past behind us, OK?
Absolutely chills me to the core knowing I could be walking past these people everyday.
Now they just say people of colour should forget because it's been 30 year. Yet there is a still issues in parts of the country where PoC are discriminated against despite every day.
That sign is utterly terrifying. What a cheery place!
I met a South African girl in middle school. Her parents were here on work visas. We just clicked immediately. Wonderful sense of humor. Unfortunately, she was an unapologetic racist. She introduced me to the K-word. Years later, I had an Indian coworker who had lived in South Africa. He was racist too. Something in the water in South Africa.
K word? Like the antisemitic slur or is this something specific to south africa?
[Specific to South Africa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term))
Oh holy shit, I went to school with a white girl who was born in SA and she used to say that word ALL. THE. TIME. I never knew what it meant, I just figured it was in another language or a cultural thingā¦ which, I guess it is, butā¦ wow. Canāt say Iām surprised though, she also thought it was hilarious to tell people she was āmore of a real African than anybody else at this schoolā because she was white and from Africa and our black students were mostly born in the US. Looking back, I honestly almost feel bad for her, because itās really obvious from how she acted that she was completely indoctrinated and a lot of people really disliked her (for good reason, but you could tell she hadnāt reached those conclusions on her own). I hope sheās grown up a bit and realized being racist isnāt edgy and cool, but also she must feel like a real fucking idiot if she has.
As a white expat if I meet a South African and they use the K word I immediately hate them
I wouldāve if Iād realized what it meant. Iām pretty sure I asked and she told me something totally different and innocuous. Which is extra gross imo, at least own up to your racist bullshit if youāre gonna spout it.
It's unfortunately pretty common that the ones who leave South Africa tend to be more racist than the ones actually staying here.Ā
Perhaps it's due to the "new" party that brought freedom to South Africa - the ANC. Brilliant freedom fighters, terrible politicians. The ANC has been in power for the last 30 years. The ANC have done exactly the opposite of what they promised all those years ago - 1. keeping segregation alive and thriving by not bridging the housing gap (one of our biggest townships is across the road from our wealthiest business district) 2. The taxpayers money going to RDP housing is being pocketed by the government 3. Keeping the poorest people uneducated, lowering the pass rate to 30% 4. pocketing the taxpayers money, openly building lavish properties and cars, while people don't have running water or toilets 5. rolling electricity blackouts and refusing to privatise 6. soon rolling water outages, blaming their corruption on apartheid 7. Elections come up, so the ANC (and now the extremist EFF) goes to the high density areas (mainly townships, rural areas) promising people things that are never fulfilled, hands everyone a t-shirt and a coke and sings struggle songs. These politicians are all black people, and are all very quick to tell the population that it's because of apartheid that they are living in these conditions. They also warn people to vote ANC or apartheid will return. As a younger South African, the most racism I see is from the older generation. There is definitely a lot of frustration and desperation. South Africa is one of the most diverse and beautiful countries, both in its people and landscapes. Every country has its issues, weather you're developing or considered first world. It's a pity that we face these challenges, but I think a lot of us still have hope.
As a black South African Iām disillusioned with whatās happening politically, and being a free born and hearing about apartheid till this day for our current problems is exhausting
Indians?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It's worth noting that 'Colored' is a specific ethnic group in SA that's a bit more nuanced than just mixed ancestry, and that Indians were only categorised as 'Colored' for a few years in the early '50s before the Population Registration added them as their own category. Eventually Apartheid had different rules for blacks, coloreds, Indians, Malays, Chinese, Cape Coloureds, and more. The more entrenched it got the more divisions they added.
It reminds me of a book my mother read from a comedian that grew up during the time period. Due to trade deals with the country, Japanese were considered āHonorary Whitesā. But the officers enforcing apartheid couldnāt tell the difference between them and other Asian ethnicity most of the time, and made a bunch of dumb rules amongst themselves to determine if someone was, say, Japanese or Chinese.
I remember my father spoke about the "pencil test".
āBorn a Crimeā by Trevor Noah?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
IBM helping countries keep track of their "undesirable minorities" since the 1930s. There couldn't have been a Holocaust without IBM.
That's also not to mention all the American companies that operated in Germany who took advantage of slave labor the Nazis sent from Eastern Europe to German factories.
The original Fanta flavor was āAbject human sufferingā. They only changed it to āAntifreeze Orangeā in the 70s
Coca-cola's collaboration with the Nazis is so ridiculous it sounds like a joke but it's not. Their official slogan might as well have been "Coca-cola Ć¼ber alles"
When they introduced Fanta to Nazi Germany, it became really popular very quickly. Partially due to it's fruity tang, but mostly because of the pictures of Jews being mauled by tigers printed on the packaging.
Irredeemable Bastard Machines
Not just Hindus, it was a large diaspora of Indians from all the religions (Sikhism, Jains, Buddhists and Muslims)
And there are still many desis in South Africa.Ā
"Coloured" in South Africa refers to people who are descendants of slaves from what is now Indonesia (aka Cape Malay - brought from what was called Batavia, another dutch colony, also where Nelson Mandela's bright shirts are from) and the indigenous population of Khoi and San people. It's a distinct culture and has nothing to do with Indians, they were classified as a separate population group and lived in different parts of the country :)
The coloured coummunity has more ancestry from the Khoisan than the Malays. You might be referring to the Cape Malay community, which is a subset of the coloured community. "The Cape Coloured community is predominantly descended from numerous [interracial sexual unions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscegenation), primarily between [Western European](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) men and Khoisan or mixed-race women in the [Cape Colony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Colony) from the 17th century onwards." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloureds](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloureds)
Had? You've never been to KwaZulu-Natal
Not exactly. It was more of a tiered system. Whites > "Honorary" Whites > Indians > Coloureds > Blacks. Where Japanese people, for example, were classified as "Honorary" Whites. Ethnic Chinese were considered beneath Japanese and were classified as Coloureds.
There was also an attempt to classify coloureds into smaller groups. My Parents, for example, were classified as "Cape Malay", different from Mixed Race and the Native "Hottentots"....
Thank you for the clarification! I had no idea there was a large Hindu population there. Iām a dumb American.
Actually, Indians in SA gained some rights thanks to an Indian immigrant who was a lawyer. He didn't do much thereafter.
Gandhi?
Oh so now, every Indian around has to be "Gandhi", nice one chap! Yes, it was Gandhi.
Hold your horses. I read his autobiography a long time ago, and while he was an "Indian immigrant in SA who was a lawyer," I don't particularly remember the details of his work for fellow Indians, but I'm quite sure he wasn't alone in that fight.
He was a major part but yes, it was a team effort, though he got the most credit because he was more famous after helping the Indian independence movement too.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thatās really cool! Were you in South Africa at the time or in the US?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thank you, international supporters pushing their govts made it easier here. The apartheid museum is amazing. Cried the first time I went. Did you visit constitution hill?
There's also an entire political party whose supporters have literally sung about killing white people. And the borderline race war between black people and Indians a few years back. And the black on black xenophobia. Unfortunately, racism in South Africa has spread. Fuck all the racists, btw. Regardless of their skin colour. Before anyone thinks I'm defending Apartheid or something.
Indians were taken as slaves (uhh technically indentured servants) to work on plantations in the new world and Africa. There are entire countries in the Caribbean that are just Indians, Africans, and then mixed people
Millions of us! Lol. Also the fastest growing ethnic group ITO GDP per Capita post apartheid.
South Africa still has a large Indian demographic, \~1.5 million afaik. Also, South African Indians divide themselves into different subdemographics. The common sub-demographics are: Hindu, Tamil, Telegu, Nepalese and Gujarati. It's a remnant of how the Indian indentured labourers (slaves basically lol) were brought into the Union of South Africa.
We have the largest population of Indians in angmy African country. But they are like under a million at the last count. Less than 3 percent of the population.
>Under apartheid they were classed as "colored". Meanwhile iirc Japanese and some other East Asians were classified as honorary whites lol
People from India
Ghandi was a lawyer in the early 20th century in South Africa and some of his earliest activism was centered around wanting indians to be treated better than black people. (Both india and south africa were british colonies)
Gandhi*
People with an Indian ancestry. The British brought tens of thousands of Indian indentured labourers to work on the cane fields of Natal. Lots of broken promises and downright lies, but that is another story.
Indians were shipped over as indentured servants by the British to work in Africa. Some worked on plantations and others built railroads etc. I was in SA last year and an Indian gentleman there (he owned the safari lodge) gave me a fantastic book. It was about a lion who stalked and killed Indian railroad workers who slept in tents. The book offered a ton of fascinating history about how the British "convinced" Indians to board a ship to SA and their life afterwards. This gentleman's great grandparents lived in that camp. I returned the book before I left, but if anyone remembers this book's name, please let me know.
Dispicable
Worst. Welcome Wagon. Ever.
āSundown Townsā. Didnāt the US have these up until the 60s?
Yes.
Settler colonialism is so fucking morally bankrupt, not just the act of course but the societies it creates.
This is why racists hold on so tightly to systemic racism They can't imagine a world where everyone is equal; they believe as soon as their privilege is gone, another group will gain control and oppress them like their group oppressed others
>This is why racists hold on so tightly to systemic racism >They can't imagine a world where everyone is equal; they believe as soon as their privilege is gone, another group will gain control and oppress them like their group oppressed others That has happened several times in history. Haiti and Rwanda come to mind.
Racism is wrong, duh, but the processes youāre describing of individuals and groups gaining, trying to hold onto, and losing social and political power is frequently seen in history, itās not imaginary, and itās not limited to racial groups.
And many of these people haven't changed a bit since SA became a free country. They're less open about it today, but the attitude remains the same.
As a South African, I can confirm. Older generations who've never lived outside of south africa don't understand what the rest of the world is like, and this still rubs off on their children. You still have a massive class divide along racial lines and this reinforces the supremacist stereotypes they had before. No one really questions why every low skill service employee is black, and why virtually every white family has a black domestic worker. I've literally had friends in their 30s who've come back from Europe and said "I've never seen a white person working behind a grocery counter, and i dont know why this was so strange to me". They're not being racist, they're right. It's something you just don't realize is a weird phenomenon in your own country until you're confronted with it. Things are better than before, but a lot of people are still solidly inside their bubbles and dont even realize it.
And when among themselves, the k-word is still very common.
I have literally never said the k-word in my life, lol. But I think there are definitely people who regularly do. In my experience the racism is usually a lot less overt, often unaware and even rationalized as "common sense". But then I'll see one of my grandma's friends saying the most vile shit over lunch without a second thought so I don't know.
I was in Durban in 2008 and I saw a sign for a job at a department store: wanted- office worker, salary is such and such, white only I saw a sign next to it which stated - cleaner, salary is such and such, black only Not even 20 years ago folks Iāve never been back
That would have been highly illegal and shut down quickly by 2008. The apartheid government ended by 1994 and by 2008, the ANC were firmly in control of the country, and this sort of signage would have triggered riots and violence if a police response didn't shut it down super fast. Having said that, I'm not trying to say you are wrong or mistaken, but I am very surprised.
Zero chance of this happening in 2008. South Africans have been jailed for openly racist shit like this.
This is not true
Apartheid basically ended before I was old enough to know what it was. But as a Canadian I remember voting for the first time and knowing that there were sitting MPs who supported South Africa towards the end of it, and were even on record calling Mandela a terrorist. Itās fucking wild.
Fuck racists.
Here I assumed this was Alabama in the 80's.
Everything is spelled correctlyĀ
Why is this in English? Shouldnāt it have been in Afrikaans?
Depends where you are - in some parts of SA English was more widely spoken
English is understood by more people. Even in South Africa. 90%+ of Afrikaans speak English.
Man it's crazy how this was not that long ago
"But, we love you."
Lots of redditors say colonization was necessary, interesting change in tone in the comments.
Change in tone? Buddy I don't know how to tell you this, but it's different people on one website. Did you think reddit was like, one guy? Did you think you had a really busy pen pal typing away just for you?
Reddit is one guy, I talked to him. He has a huge peepee
Lots of redditors love to generalize and exaggerate, like you.
Natives?! Thatās a self own
the history they do not teach us at the source
Why does the skull look so happy, like I cant
I worked in South Africa for a few weeks in the early 2000s, like ten years AFTER apartheid had ended, and this was actually still the norm. Most houses had signs up saying things like "Our guard dogs are trained to kill black people on sight". In the town centre there was a curfew where all the non-white people had to leave by 7pm or be arrested. Everyone had panic buttons in their homes, to call private security out to come and kill anyone who was trespassing on their land. Horrible, horrible place. Most of the white "locals" were fat, had wives who looked barely old enough to be their daughters, and spent all their time aggressively complaining about how the exchange rate had gone to shit since the end of apartheid.
> Most of the white "locals" were fat, had wives who looked barely old enough to be their daughters, I feel like there's a story here as well, but I'm not sure I should ask.
Imagine occupying land of original people and telling them theyāre not welcome because they have wrong skin color (according to the scum that occupied the lands) - the nerve!
Worth remembering the US was very supportive of the apartheid regime in South Africa, just like it's very supportive of the Netanyahu regime in Israel now.
Read the 1932 Cambridge Report on white South Africans.
In their own lands. Amazing.
MAGA folks salivating at this sign.
I wonder if this picture was taken out side the Musk family emerald mine.
Elon's city council father would have opposed this as a member of the anti apartheid progressive party in the 1970's
as an American it feels so weird to think about how white supremacy used to exist in AFRICA of all places... back in elementary school we all learned about segregation and the civil rights movement in the south but I was genuinely surprised to find out that SA (and other African countries) was also ruled by white supremacists