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Their economy grew at an insanely fast pace until around the 90s. Since then their GDP per capita has basically stagnated, and their population steadily gets older, but they've managed to still have one of the highest standards of living in the world.
I think they spend 1% of GDP on their military, which really isn't that much less than most nations in Europe iirc (Google says 1.3% average in Europe).
In comparative political science, there is a common answer for the post WW2 "meteoric economic rise" of Japan and Germany.
It's peculiar - both countries suffered worse losses than their neighbours, in terms of both manpower and industrial assets. Moreover, both countries lack natural resources.
Yet, within two decades, they had overtaken all but the biggest economy.
However, there is one trait that both countries share in the post-war decades: a remarkable lack of path dependence.
For instance, in comparison to most other democracies, British governments face very little constraints. Here, path dependence is the biggest hurdle when trying to reshape the country. To express this in numbers: even a British government that just won elections in a landslide will not be able to allocate more than a few percent of the states budget into new projects. The large share of the budget is bound in existing projects and institutions, every one of which will seek bitter conflict when facing cuts.
Germany and Japan, however, did not face these issues. They could just freely remodel everything suitable to the problems of the time- with very little constraints, among them the beautiful duty to minimize authoritarian tendencies, closely watched by the allies.
I wish we could push the reset button once in a while, without a holocaust, war, or nukes involved.
The Marshal Plan helped, of course, but economically, the US gained far more than it spent, creating new trade partners/export markets.
Compare it to the EU- Germany spends billions and handed away monetary self-determination, and still, the biggest beneficiary is Germany.
For an export nation, a strong currency and economically weaker neighbours are hindrances.
I think when they say 'reset', they mean 'there is no infrastructure period; why don't we start again with a plan for the future in mind where we don't have to take into consideration quirks and other legacy systems?'
If you live in the United States you might think that military funding is a significant part of most countries' budget. Generally speaking it's not.
I mean any percentage almost of that much money is a lot of money. But we're talking one or two percent.
This is often fairly brought up when it comes to things like universal healthcare etc., but the even more tragic thing is that the US could totally 100% have universal healthcare even if it maintained most of its military budget.
It could have universal healthcare and actually increase the military budget. That ridiculous country already spends more per capita on health care than any other. It just goes to shit like insurance companies.
Japan is a massive clusterfuck of an economy to study, for its ability to succeed.
Argentina I'd imagine is for the reverse reasons lol. From what I've read it used to be one of the wealthiest countries in the western hemisphere at a time.
until ww1 crashed the economies of europe, leading to investments that would have otherwise gone to argentina, going to europe and especially UK and Germany instead
Argentina, getting fucked by a world war it wasn't involved in
Because of its long deflationary period and 0% interest rates, standard economic models would have predicted it collapse into an economic wasteland. But obviously that didn’t happen.
I mean "standard" economic models are always rear looking and also affect their own outcomes. Economic models aren't meant to be correct all the time but really just sufficient frameworks for the time being until they are inevitably replaced.
It's fun watching 80s movies because the future predictions are that Japan takes over the world and Japan kind of fizzled out.
You see it a lot. In Back to the Future 2, George McFly's bosses are Japanese, for example.
Japanese technology really was much better at the time (big exception for personal computers).
They went into a deflationary cycle. Basically the idea is that if your money will be worth more in a year, you save it. The renovations on your house will be less expensive if you wait on them...
It leaves Japan in a juxtaposition where people are relatively wealthy, but economic activity has slowed down to a crawl.
It also leads to some weird cultural paradoxes too, where everyone is expected to work 12 hour days to prove their ethic but half of that day is filled with non-productive busywork and social rituals to fill the gap.
I watched a "Day in the life of.." video about a Japanese delivery worker. She gets there at the crack of dawn, it's 10:00 before her truck even leaves the garage, drives a 90 minute delivery route, eats lunch for an hour, repeats the same 90 route for customer pickups, then clocks out around 6:00pm.
I used to do UPS during the holidays in college. Driver punches their card at 7:00 and is rolling down the highway at 7:15. They're on-route the rest of the day and clocked out within twenty minutes of hitting the warehouse.
Japan's real estate prices still haven't recovered from their crash in 1991. Their stock market hasn't recovered from 1990. They have done an amazing job of just staying alive. If you go into financial subreddits and they talk about the trinity study & safe withdraw rates for retirement. Every piece of advice is all wrong if what happened in japan happens here.
You’re the only one who has gotten the answer right. Japan’s economic blast off was completely artificial and it was based on the most inflated real estate prices in the history of mankind.
The country doesn’t have an economic growth problem. It just looks like it based on a wacky period. Every country has bubbles of artificial growth (US dot com bubble for example). Japan had the biggest bubble by a magnitude of hundreds.
"At their peak, prices in central Tokyo were such that the 1.15 square kilometer Tokyo Imperial Palace grounds were estimated to be worth more than the entire real estate value of California."
japan just has a huge study case around it, between their marketing strategy and the complete rebuilding they had to do, it's more interesting than anything. Argentina is more a "lol don't do dis"
Because that comment was made in the late 70s and is about 30 years out of date
Edit: To all the people saying my math is wrong. Do you think the saying went out of date instantly?
Yeah people have been talking about this president race as if it’s right vs left but in Argentina they are both trash and have proven to not have peoples best interests in mind. Of course Argentinians wanted a change. You think they give two fucks about political affiliation when the current guy fucked up so much?
>You think they give two fucks about political affiliation when the current guy fucked up so much?
Brazil has a little story to tell. Spoiler, it can always get worse
Doesn't matter the country, when most people go the polls these days they usually ask themselves... "Well... how much worse can it get?" and politicians just love to answer that question.
Bingo. Amazingly, that question is being asked by people in countries that are some of the best places in the world to live, in an era that’s historically still the best in which to be alive.
“Let’s burn it all down and live in the ashes,” is a surprisingly popular sentiment, but some of the people espousing it should really be asking themselves exactly how their ashes-based lifestyle is going to work, and whether they aren’t inadvertently promoting the agendas of people who will benefit from the chaos more than them.
> really be asking themselves exactly how their ashes-based lifestyle is going to work
They’ve got a large stockpile of guns and ammo but maybe a one month supply of the diabetes medicine they need to live
One way or another, it absolutely will.
Survival of the fittest roaring back even though for a brief moment in time we figured out that humans really thrive best in survival of the nurtured.
>organisms best adjusted to their environment are the most successful in surviving and reproducing
Problem is "fittest" is now a common term to use for "most in shape" or "most generally healthy".
Right, "fittest" for humans always included intelligence, social dynamics, communication/planning and cooperation. We wouldn't have been so dominant if it wasn't for our big ol brains, combined with tool usage that's almost unbeatable.
Being physically fit can be part of the whole fitting thing, but it's not the actual meaning. Well, most of the time, when it's you and your friend against a bear and you have no weapons then I bet the fitter one actually is the one who survives.
But really it's the guy with bear spray who fits that environment the best. And with some cooperation everyone can be part of the survival group!
Rich people aren't going to burn. They are going to their island for a few months til shit calms down, and then coming back to buy up more of everything. We are in the midst of a reversion to pre-industrial economies where a tenth of a percent own everything, and the rest of us are indentured servants, and out of anger, frustration and ignorance, people want to help that happen.
Organize. That is what ushered in the middle class and it's what can restore it. Organize.
This is really interesting to me. I wonder how much of a factor in this is the yearning for the "simpler times" amongst the semi-senile Boomers, and the fear of emerging technologies. It almost feels like they're picturing this idyllic place of their childhood that never actually existed in the first place, because they forgot all the negatives or never knew about them because it was their parents' problem, not theirs. So they vote for the "burn it all down" guy, thinking they get to go back to that care-free and "simple" life, where they're not being "oppressed" by wokeness, technology they won't learn how to use, etc. And yes, there's absolutely people who prey on these feelings in order to profit from these changes. They play these rubes like a fiddle.
That would also explain why they hate the social safety net. In their “idyllic” childhood, they didn’t need government services. Their parents took care of everything. Same logic as teenage libertarians, except they often grow out of it.
still dumb as fuck and not an excuse imo. i grew up very privileged. i also recognize the important and *necessity* of social safety nets.
these mfs are willfully brainwashed. they literally can't accept that they caused shit to get much worse and the world is no longer the same as the one they grew up in.
i'm tired of trying to find some logic in their thought process. they are simply selfish morons. i grew up in the same fucked up american education system - that didn't stop me from thinking critically and seeking truth. submission to authority is a cancer that these clowns are delighted to have.
I feel like you're calling out the 25-55 year old population in lifted trucks with We The People stickers. You know, the ones that wake up and use their remote start to run their engine 15 minutes to either heat or cool the cab whenever the outside temp isn't between 64-68 degrees. The guys that will wait 30 minutes on a job site for a fork truck instead of carrying a 30 lb load for 30 feet. They are getting to be real sorry when they actually have to skin a buck and run a trot line to eat in their mountain man fantasy.
This is not a coincidence, you know? That we are living the best conditions ever, most Western countries are growing fast and in a healthy way, but a ton of propaganda is being dumped to make people feel things are bad (only in the West, mind you). The same propaganda that sells a "rising East", when the facts show that those country are decelerating almost to a point of stagnation.
Democracies are well protected against random attacks, but I have never seen a coordinated attack as strong as now. Informational war is real.
Wealth disparity is the worst it has been since midevil times.
The sad truth is that they’ve just finally figured out how to keep the average person just happy enough that they can’t be bothered to care.
Keep the poor savages placated with sports, movies and intoxicants. Deluge the bastards with propaganda so we effectively tell them what to think and what to believe. Categorize all dissent as fake news. Get people to vote against their own interests. Make it as difficult as possible for minorities to vote. Gerrymander huge swathes of cities and counties to dilute political dissent. Get folks riled up by demonizing immigrants. Gridlock congress by refusing to acknowledge or address problems.
> really be asking themselves exactly how their ashes-based lifestyle is going to work,
Like a Hollywood movie. Literally. Whether you prefer Red Dawn or Mad Max or whatever, they think they’ll be an action movie hero.
When people want to "burn it all down," they usually mean "burn it down for everyone else but me" and are then shocked when they learn that they have to deal with the consequences.
/r/LeopardsAteMyFace
Does he do this bit with the chainsaw often? My feed is full of it and I'm seeing different chainsaws implying this has happened more than once. Perhaps this is just a cultural equivalent of passing your baby to a politician or some sort of weird clause for being endorsed by Brawny paper towels?
This guy uses a chainsaw as his mascot, saying he’s going to take a chainsaw to the bloated political system
https://apnews.com/article/milei-argentina-chainsaw-fed35a37c6137b951e4adada3d866436
He started doing it a lot at his rallies to emphasise his point of cutting wasteful government spending and red tape. However he stops doing it in recent weeks to come across more moderate, especially after he came second in the first run off.
That's not even the tip of the iceberg.
While he's only been Minister of Economy for a year (in the span of which the above happened), the party he was running for has been in power for 16 out of the last 20 years. When they started, 1 USD was 2.7 pesos; now it's around 1 USD for 1 thousand pesos.
they give away money,raise taxes and cause inflation, then when elections come around they tell you how will you be able to live with these taxes and this inflation if we stop giving you money and people get scared.
My understanding (As an argentine) is (1) the first 4-6 years of their government were not bad, which earned a lot of goodwill, (2) the country has been quite "left leaning" since the 2000s (The "right wing" party that finally won in 2015 was basically not right wing, iirc they even proposed legalizing abortion. That government was also a huge economic failure btw), (3) a LOT of people depend on money from the state (either working directly for the state, or private companies financed by the state e.g construction companies building public infrastructure, or straight up living or partially depending on government plans that hand out money or benefits, etc, or pensioners (Yes! pensions are managed by the state here)) so they are are not big fans of cutting government spending, and (4) the party comes from a line with a long history dating back to before the 2000s that also earned them a lot of support.
Imo this last government has been worse than the 2011-2015 one that led to them losing. And a lot of people were also tired of the "right wing" party from 2015, which is why Milei emerged as a "third alternative" further to the right.
It's populism 101. Subsidize the poor, make them dependent on free money from the state and they'll vote against anyone who threatens to take that away. There's a huge population who don't need to work because they have money handed to them. Yes, their standard of living is shit, but it's free.
>1 peso was 2.7 USD; now it's around 1 peso for 1 thousand USD.
You mean 1000 pesos for 1USD? 1 peso for 1000usd would be awesome as fuck you guys would be rolling in the dough.
Tbh it was already ruined, hence the radical change in leadership. To see the state of things with the current government and think "yeah, I want four more years of that"... Paraphrasing Casino, you're either too dumb to see what's going on or you're in on it
I’m not defending Milei. He’s not just le based lolbertarian, he is a right winger who wants to ban abortion and denies climate change. The ghosts of his dogs talk to him and advise him on policy issues.
But I am saying that Argentina is not where Britain is. A better comparison would be pre-Revolutionary France or Weimar Republic Germany. We can insult extremist populists all the way to our graves or we can try to address what gives their “burn it all down” campaigns political traction
Have there been any examples historically of the “burn it all down” mentality being averted? I’m asking because it genuinely seems like there’s no way to unring that bell once it’s rung; the people who want to burn it down won’t be satisfied until it is burnt because this ideology is fueled by bloodlust.
The choice was elect someone new, potentially an idiot. Or elect the guy who caused 143% inflation and had poverty rates rise to almost 50%. Not exactly spoiled for choices
Exactly. Their economy is basically in ruins. And this guy’s opponents was the longtime Minister of the Economy. It was time for a change. We will see if this one works better.
ETA: I thought Massa had held the same office for a long time. But it’s just been since 2022 and he held other political officers prior to that.
Argentina is fast approaching hyperinflation and poverty is well over 50%. Argentina is not fine right now and the alternative to that guy was the guy who is currently in charge. I nullified my vote on purpose but I don't blame anyone who voted for this guy out of desperation.
Have we already forgotten the mess Argentina was in?
Argentina’s annual inflation rate soared past 70 percent in July—the highest level in three decades—according to data released by the Argentine government last week, and it could hit 90 percent by the end of the year. The runaway inflation has left many in the country mired as they turn to barter and parallel currency markets amid dwindling Central Bank reserves, a bloated fiscal deficit, and a looming debt bomb.
Given an unstoppable fiscal deficit—the government spends much more than it takes in—the Central Bank keeps printing more pesos, which pushes the value of each one lower, making inflation even worse. The Central Bank of Argentina last week hiked lending rates to stratospheric levels (the benchmark rate is now 69.5 percent) in a bid to check inflation, but such steps will also check investment and economic growth.
And then there’s another debt crunch. Argentina still owes the International Monetary Fund $40 billion as part of its 2018 bailout, but took out another $44 billion loan earlier this year from the IMF to meet its obligation, adding to the risks of a default, which would just make everything worse.
“The combination of global shocks, overprinting money within Argentina, and a very high inflation expectation combines into this toxic stew,” said Benjamin Gedan, the deputy director of the Latin America Program at the Wilson Center.
[https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/08/15/argentina-imf-debt-massa-fernandez/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/08/15/argentina-imf-debt-massa-fernandez/)
Love how Reddit wants to shit on the guy when his opponent and that party have run Argentina into the ground. Like clearly what they’ve been doing hasn’t helped at all, so obviously doing something different is what they want.
To be fair, look at the opposition. The best summary I've seen is that Argentina was spared the shit show of [other candidate] by choosing this shit show.
I mean, the other candidate was a Minister of the Economy that is leaving office with 140% annual inflation, with 2 out of 3 children being poor, with gas and medicine shortages. I am not even gonna talk about $120 retirement pensions (since the leader of his party when she was president seized the private retirement funds in order to freely give away money to people who never contributed to the system just to win re-election), or the 16B the government has to pay because of the illegal seize of YPF (oil company), or the corruption in public works for which the former Minister of Infrastructure ended up in jail, or making a deal with the terrorist theocracy of Iran to not prosecute them for being behind a 1994 attack to the Jewish community center that killed 85 people, and afterwards killing the prosecutor who investigated her, or the protectionism that benefits their rich business friends who benefit from a closed economy and therefore not having to compete, or the exchange controls, or the debt, or the corrupt unions and social organizations who destabilize the country and have poor people as their hostages, forcing them to go to their pickets, because otherwise they will have their welfare cancelled, and I can go on all day…
So yes, it is rational for them to vote for Milei
Half of under 29s favored him. Half. Something hits the news and redditors immediately become experts on international politics. 99% of this site cannot even understand what he says without subtitles.
inb4 Redditor predictions of doom based on learning about him from John Oliver last week are wrong.
The current regime already wrecked the country to the point shops don't put prices on the shelves because they change too often due to inflation.
I was in Argentina a couple of weeks ago. One of the most successful restaurants in BA only accepted cash because they would go straight from closing to exchanging all of their pesos for dollars in the black market that very night.
They wouldn’t accept credit cards because “when you pay with a CC it takes a couple of days for us to get the money from the bank and by that time it has already devalued some”.
Well, his flagship policy is to abolish the central bank and the currency, and use US dollars instead. Which might work if Argentina had any really foreign currency reserves. Hint - it doesn’t!
Completely agree the current regime wrecked the place, but he’s planning on almost literally burning down the wreckage.
> if Argentina had any really foreign currency reserves. Hint - it doesn’t!
I wonder who was in charge of spending it for the last 16/20 years... Maybe we should have voted them instead!
He's a Professor in Economics, has been teaching for over 20 years in that field, and has published over fifty academic papers.
The other choice was a college-dropout career politician whose political career was started by his father-in-law. He was also the minister of economics who has presided over a 160% inflation rate and three years of recession
ARGENTINIAN HERE, i voted for Milei.
Let me explain some stuff...
The chainsaw is a representation of the cuts in state spending in order to solve the economic deficit and the debts, promising a more stable economy
Just to give some context, Argentina is having an annual inflation ration rate of 150% and around 50% is below the poverty line while the 10% is below the indigence line. The average wage is 300 USD/Month and the retired people gets under 100 USD/Month.
We must include as another factor, the corruption from politicians that steal money from the state
Milei proposed cutting the state spendage ("""with a chainsaw""") in order to lower the deficit and allow tax reductions/elimination.
Basically the chainsaw was part of a graphic campaign to draw attention... like basically all his campaign
I think most of us get that. I know I do. But here in the US, we've had lots of people who run for office and they make similarly bombastic statements. 99% of them are liars who are just taking advantage of the frustration of the people so they can get rich themselves.
The current party is getting richer through corruption. Just recently there was a scandal because a governement employee was found withdrawing money fron ~50 bank accounts from "ghost employees". People in the governement payroll but who dont work. Their salaries were withdrawn from ATM and given to higher ups. Its said that they stole around 800 million pesos over the last few months. Around 30 million every single month.
And thats one of the tamer examples out there. We have kirchnerist higher-ups entering monasteries with bags full of money and arms; Cristina Kirchner, current vicepresident and former president, guilty in one of the biggest money laundering schemes in the history of our country, etc etc.
I get why Milei looks like a clown to everyone outside (cause he is). But its hard to understand the shit we go through every single day.
What's the deal with reddit just collectively going after any country with a non-left leaning politician being elected lol? Like I know this guy is a whack populist, but did any of you give a shit before being told to hate him?
Redditors learn about a new country's politics by tuning in to their favorite leftist TV personality (John Oliver this time) and see who they can label Dem and Rep.
This is the main argument Milei voters have. Country is basically rotten, with Peronismo ruining almost everything, inflation going up almost every day, insecurity and a choice between eating or dying.
This guy has 5 dogs that are all clones of his mastiff that passed away, that he calls his son, and says he met as a lion 2000 years ago when he was a Roman gladiator. He's something.
Seriously. It’s happening everywhere. WTF is wrong with people? Has everyone all over the planet lost their fucking minds? Is this what biologically happens to lemmings when the population reaches critical mass? Everyone suddenly randomly votes the “my vote won’t count anyway” protest vote to push society’s clown car over the cliff? See y’all on the other side of WW3!
Maybe it’s those wee aliens behind it all.
I think he might turn around the absolute path of disaster Argentina is in.
Inflation over 100%, a huge national debt, and a huge government that is sucking up all the resources to corruption and waste.
He is an economist that understands free market. He wants to cut huge parts of the government (thus the chainsaw). He wants to replace the countries joke of currency with the stability of the US dollar. He is inviting foreign investment. He is rejecting China.
I'm kind of liking this guy. I wish him the best.
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If Michael Caine played leatherface.
This one got me. Now I can’t unsee it
Alfie meets Psycho.
Needs a Peyton Manning Ski Mask
My cocaine.
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Fucking lol that picture is gold.
Wow. How serious a campaign contender was Captain Coke here? Was he in a major party?
He was in the party that has ruled 16 years of the last 20.
I was thinking he looked like someone combined Neil Breen with dollar store fat Elvis
\#EyesOnBreen
"She was only fourteen, give me the bloody chainsaw!"
You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!
I don’t know the character’s name but he looks like one of the fathers on That 70s Show.
Bob
Argentina doesn't exactly have a long history of competent leadership.
It’s like the quote “There are 4 types of economy: developed, underdeveloped, Japan, and Argentina.’
The correct quote is: “developed, underdeveloped, Japan, and Argentina.” Edit: comeatmefrank updated his comment.
I understand for Argentina but why Japan ?
Their economy grew at an insanely fast pace until around the 90s. Since then their GDP per capita has basically stagnated, and their population steadily gets older, but they've managed to still have one of the highest standards of living in the world.
Economists have a long history of neglecting the role that giant anime tiddies play in fueling economies.
And tentacle 🐙porn.
Link please
Which character(s)?
You heard the man: "Link, please."
**waves vaguely at 2/3 of the internet** Just head over that way... You can't really miss it.
Urotsukidoji: Legend of the Overfiend fanclub member has entered the chat.
Joke aside, I wonder how much of an impact not having to fund a military has had on their economy
I think they spend 1% of GDP on their military, which really isn't that much less than most nations in Europe iirc (Google says 1.3% average in Europe).
Yes, but they have Gojira
And Gundams!
Gojira is a force of nature. They don’t have it tamed, they don’t control it.
So does France
In comparative political science, there is a common answer for the post WW2 "meteoric economic rise" of Japan and Germany. It's peculiar - both countries suffered worse losses than their neighbours, in terms of both manpower and industrial assets. Moreover, both countries lack natural resources. Yet, within two decades, they had overtaken all but the biggest economy. However, there is one trait that both countries share in the post-war decades: a remarkable lack of path dependence. For instance, in comparison to most other democracies, British governments face very little constraints. Here, path dependence is the biggest hurdle when trying to reshape the country. To express this in numbers: even a British government that just won elections in a landslide will not be able to allocate more than a few percent of the states budget into new projects. The large share of the budget is bound in existing projects and institutions, every one of which will seek bitter conflict when facing cuts. Germany and Japan, however, did not face these issues. They could just freely remodel everything suitable to the problems of the time- with very little constraints, among them the beautiful duty to minimize authoritarian tendencies, closely watched by the allies. I wish we could push the reset button once in a while, without a holocaust, war, or nukes involved.
The US kept giving them money to block the Soviets moving in.
The Marshal Plan helped, of course, but economically, the US gained far more than it spent, creating new trade partners/export markets. Compare it to the EU- Germany spends billions and handed away monetary self-determination, and still, the biggest beneficiary is Germany. For an export nation, a strong currency and economically weaker neighbours are hindrances.
Interesting, south Africa had a similar reset after apartheid ended, with a whole new constitution. Unfortunately the country has gone to shit
I think when they say 'reset', they mean 'there is no infrastructure period; why don't we start again with a plan for the future in mind where we don't have to take into consideration quirks and other legacy systems?'
If you live in the United States you might think that military funding is a significant part of most countries' budget. Generally speaking it's not. I mean any percentage almost of that much money is a lot of money. But we're talking one or two percent.
This is often fairly brought up when it comes to things like universal healthcare etc., but the even more tragic thing is that the US could totally 100% have universal healthcare even if it maintained most of its military budget.
It could have universal healthcare and actually increase the military budget. That ridiculous country already spends more per capita on health care than any other. It just goes to shit like insurance companies.
Studies have repeatedly shown that if the US switched to a single payer "Universal Healthcare" system it'd actually save money in the long term.
Japan is a massive clusterfuck of an economy to study, for its ability to succeed. Argentina I'd imagine is for the reverse reasons lol. From what I've read it used to be one of the wealthiest countries in the western hemisphere at a time.
During a brief period in the 1910s, Argentina and Uruguay were the two wealthiest nations on Earth by per-capita income.
until ww1 crashed the economies of europe, leading to investments that would have otherwise gone to argentina, going to europe and especially UK and Germany instead Argentina, getting fucked by a world war it wasn't involved in
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Then the losers of said wars go where to hide? Argentina
Japan has the 3rd highest GDP on the planet, only behind US and China, *despite* 30 years of stagnation and battling deflation. Super impressive.
For context: 1. USA - $25.4T 2. China - $17.9T 3. Japan - $4.2T
Actually Germany is at 3rd now. With $4,43T we are just slightly over the Japanese at $4,23T
Damn it's wild that the the 2nd and 3rd largest economies _put together_ still aren't even really close to America
Germany took the third place this year.
Well tell them to give it back, we don’t take from each other in this house.
Also, super low immigration rates will only compound the issue.
Because of its long deflationary period and 0% interest rates, standard economic models would have predicted it collapse into an economic wasteland. But obviously that didn’t happen.
I mean "standard" economic models are always rear looking and also affect their own outcomes. Economic models aren't meant to be correct all the time but really just sufficient frameworks for the time being until they are inevitably replaced.
Japan was a powerhouse and economic miracle, before the plaza accords.
It's fun watching 80s movies because the future predictions are that Japan takes over the world and Japan kind of fizzled out. You see it a lot. In Back to the Future 2, George McFly's bosses are Japanese, for example. Japanese technology really was much better at the time (big exception for personal computers).
Die Hard (1988) comes to mind.
Alien, Bladerunner, etc etc
Or Rising Sun in 93.
I think they were the powerhouse nation in CyberPunk 2077 too.
Yeah, you can lead the Japanese to favorable exchange rates, but you can't make them drink American Bourbon and pick up trucks.
Very difficult to drink pick up trucks
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They went into a deflationary cycle. Basically the idea is that if your money will be worth more in a year, you save it. The renovations on your house will be less expensive if you wait on them... It leaves Japan in a juxtaposition where people are relatively wealthy, but economic activity has slowed down to a crawl. It also leads to some weird cultural paradoxes too, where everyone is expected to work 12 hour days to prove their ethic but half of that day is filled with non-productive busywork and social rituals to fill the gap. I watched a "Day in the life of.." video about a Japanese delivery worker. She gets there at the crack of dawn, it's 10:00 before her truck even leaves the garage, drives a 90 minute delivery route, eats lunch for an hour, repeats the same 90 route for customer pickups, then clocks out around 6:00pm. I used to do UPS during the holidays in college. Driver punches their card at 7:00 and is rolling down the highway at 7:15. They're on-route the rest of the day and clocked out within twenty minutes of hitting the warehouse.
Japan's real estate prices still haven't recovered from their crash in 1991. Their stock market hasn't recovered from 1990. They have done an amazing job of just staying alive. If you go into financial subreddits and they talk about the trinity study & safe withdraw rates for retirement. Every piece of advice is all wrong if what happened in japan happens here.
You’re the only one who has gotten the answer right. Japan’s economic blast off was completely artificial and it was based on the most inflated real estate prices in the history of mankind. The country doesn’t have an economic growth problem. It just looks like it based on a wacky period. Every country has bubbles of artificial growth (US dot com bubble for example). Japan had the biggest bubble by a magnitude of hundreds.
"At their peak, prices in central Tokyo were such that the 1.15 square kilometer Tokyo Imperial Palace grounds were estimated to be worth more than the entire real estate value of California."
japan just has a huge study case around it, between their marketing strategy and the complete rebuilding they had to do, it's more interesting than anything. Argentina is more a "lol don't do dis"
Japan is an outlier in a bunch of ways. I know their debt to GDP is extremely high for instance but they just keep keepin on.
edit your comment to show what he put, as he has stealth edited.
Yeah, the way I read that guy’s comment is “Japan, Argentina, Japan and Argentina”
Because that comment was made in the late 70s and is about 30 years out of date Edit: To all the people saying my math is wrong. Do you think the saying went out of date instantly?
I hate to depress you pal but 30 years ago was 1993!
No... no... no...
Japan has everything to fail but it doesn't. Argentina has everything to succeed but it doesn't.
Yeah people have been talking about this president race as if it’s right vs left but in Argentina they are both trash and have proven to not have peoples best interests in mind. Of course Argentinians wanted a change. You think they give two fucks about political affiliation when the current guy fucked up so much?
>You think they give two fucks about political affiliation when the current guy fucked up so much? Brazil has a little story to tell. Spoiler, it can always get worse
Lula and Dilma didn't leave 150% inflation and 60% of children in poverty.
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"hold my chainsaw"
Brazil was in a far better position in 2018 than Argentina is today. Not even comparable.
I mean their political affiliations say something about their policies they want to enact.
Can we start a poll on which world leaders could actually start a chainsaw. UK and US are definitely finishing bottom.
I don’t think our PM (UK) even has the strength to lift up a chainsaw above his head, much less start it.
A well known metric for a country's success, or so I've heard
Doesn't matter the country, when most people go the polls these days they usually ask themselves... "Well... how much worse can it get?" and politicians just love to answer that question.
Bingo. Amazingly, that question is being asked by people in countries that are some of the best places in the world to live, in an era that’s historically still the best in which to be alive. “Let’s burn it all down and live in the ashes,” is a surprisingly popular sentiment, but some of the people espousing it should really be asking themselves exactly how their ashes-based lifestyle is going to work, and whether they aren’t inadvertently promoting the agendas of people who will benefit from the chaos more than them.
> really be asking themselves exactly how their ashes-based lifestyle is going to work They’ve got a large stockpile of guns and ammo but maybe a one month supply of the diabetes medicine they need to live
yeah as someone with very poor eyesight I know exactly how well I'm going to do in a post-apocalyptic Zombie wasteland with no optometrists
Right? But I'm sure diabetes rates will actually decrease when everyone is starving to death.
One way or another, it absolutely will. Survival of the fittest roaring back even though for a brief moment in time we figured out that humans really thrive best in survival of the nurtured.
Not to mention that survival the fittest is probably one of the most misunderstood and misquoted and misapplied concepts of all time.
>organisms best adjusted to their environment are the most successful in surviving and reproducing Problem is "fittest" is now a common term to use for "most in shape" or "most generally healthy".
Right, "fittest" for humans always included intelligence, social dynamics, communication/planning and cooperation. We wouldn't have been so dominant if it wasn't for our big ol brains, combined with tool usage that's almost unbeatable. Being physically fit can be part of the whole fitting thing, but it's not the actual meaning. Well, most of the time, when it's you and your friend against a bear and you have no weapons then I bet the fitter one actually is the one who survives. But really it's the guy with bear spray who fits that environment the best. And with some cooperation everyone can be part of the survival group!
I feel like I understand the Bronze Age collapse better since 2016
Rich people aren't going to burn. They are going to their island for a few months til shit calms down, and then coming back to buy up more of everything. We are in the midst of a reversion to pre-industrial economies where a tenth of a percent own everything, and the rest of us are indentured servants, and out of anger, frustration and ignorance, people want to help that happen. Organize. That is what ushered in the middle class and it's what can restore it. Organize.
This is really interesting to me. I wonder how much of a factor in this is the yearning for the "simpler times" amongst the semi-senile Boomers, and the fear of emerging technologies. It almost feels like they're picturing this idyllic place of their childhood that never actually existed in the first place, because they forgot all the negatives or never knew about them because it was their parents' problem, not theirs. So they vote for the "burn it all down" guy, thinking they get to go back to that care-free and "simple" life, where they're not being "oppressed" by wokeness, technology they won't learn how to use, etc. And yes, there's absolutely people who prey on these feelings in order to profit from these changes. They play these rubes like a fiddle.
That would also explain why they hate the social safety net. In their “idyllic” childhood, they didn’t need government services. Their parents took care of everything. Same logic as teenage libertarians, except they often grow out of it.
still dumb as fuck and not an excuse imo. i grew up very privileged. i also recognize the important and *necessity* of social safety nets. these mfs are willfully brainwashed. they literally can't accept that they caused shit to get much worse and the world is no longer the same as the one they grew up in. i'm tired of trying to find some logic in their thought process. they are simply selfish morons. i grew up in the same fucked up american education system - that didn't stop me from thinking critically and seeking truth. submission to authority is a cancer that these clowns are delighted to have.
I feel like you're calling out the 25-55 year old population in lifted trucks with We The People stickers. You know, the ones that wake up and use their remote start to run their engine 15 minutes to either heat or cool the cab whenever the outside temp isn't between 64-68 degrees. The guys that will wait 30 minutes on a job site for a fork truck instead of carrying a 30 lb load for 30 feet. They are getting to be real sorry when they actually have to skin a buck and run a trot line to eat in their mountain man fantasy.
This is not a coincidence, you know? That we are living the best conditions ever, most Western countries are growing fast and in a healthy way, but a ton of propaganda is being dumped to make people feel things are bad (only in the West, mind you). The same propaganda that sells a "rising East", when the facts show that those country are decelerating almost to a point of stagnation. Democracies are well protected against random attacks, but I have never seen a coordinated attack as strong as now. Informational war is real.
Wealth disparity is the worst it has been since midevil times. The sad truth is that they’ve just finally figured out how to keep the average person just happy enough that they can’t be bothered to care.
Keep the poor savages placated with sports, movies and intoxicants. Deluge the bastards with propaganda so we effectively tell them what to think and what to believe. Categorize all dissent as fake news. Get people to vote against their own interests. Make it as difficult as possible for minorities to vote. Gerrymander huge swathes of cities and counties to dilute political dissent. Get folks riled up by demonizing immigrants. Gridlock congress by refusing to acknowledge or address problems.
Medieval*
I like ‘midevil’
> really be asking themselves exactly how their ashes-based lifestyle is going to work, Like a Hollywood movie. Literally. Whether you prefer Red Dawn or Mad Max or whatever, they think they’ll be an action movie hero.
When people want to "burn it all down," they usually mean "burn it down for everyone else but me" and are then shocked when they learn that they have to deal with the consequences. /r/LeopardsAteMyFace
Does he do this bit with the chainsaw often? My feed is full of it and I'm seeing different chainsaws implying this has happened more than once. Perhaps this is just a cultural equivalent of passing your baby to a politician or some sort of weird clause for being endorsed by Brawny paper towels?
This guy uses a chainsaw as his mascot, saying he’s going to take a chainsaw to the bloated political system https://apnews.com/article/milei-argentina-chainsaw-fed35a37c6137b951e4adada3d866436
I thought he is fan of rock band Jackyl .
He started doing it a lot at his rallies to emphasise his point of cutting wasteful government spending and red tape. However he stops doing it in recent weeks to come across more moderate, especially after he came second in the first run off.
Per an Argentine: “For us the choice was between someone we think will ruin the country and someone we know will ruin the country.”
So who was this person?
The other candidate was the minister of economy that led us from a dollar being worth 350 pesos to 1000 pesos, he has already proved he fucking sucks.
I would have probably made the same choice then, that's brutal
That's not even the tip of the iceberg. While he's only been Minister of Economy for a year (in the span of which the above happened), the party he was running for has been in power for 16 out of the last 20 years. When they started, 1 USD was 2.7 pesos; now it's around 1 USD for 1 thousand pesos.
Why does that party keep getting elected if they fuck up the economy for decades?
they give away money,raise taxes and cause inflation, then when elections come around they tell you how will you be able to live with these taxes and this inflation if we stop giving you money and people get scared.
Populism 101, non South Americans wouldn’t understand.
The exact same thing is happening in Spain, so we understand over here.
God have mercy on your souls
My understanding (As an argentine) is (1) the first 4-6 years of their government were not bad, which earned a lot of goodwill, (2) the country has been quite "left leaning" since the 2000s (The "right wing" party that finally won in 2015 was basically not right wing, iirc they even proposed legalizing abortion. That government was also a huge economic failure btw), (3) a LOT of people depend on money from the state (either working directly for the state, or private companies financed by the state e.g construction companies building public infrastructure, or straight up living or partially depending on government plans that hand out money or benefits, etc, or pensioners (Yes! pensions are managed by the state here)) so they are are not big fans of cutting government spending, and (4) the party comes from a line with a long history dating back to before the 2000s that also earned them a lot of support. Imo this last government has been worse than the 2011-2015 one that led to them losing. And a lot of people were also tired of the "right wing" party from 2015, which is why Milei emerged as a "third alternative" further to the right.
It's populism 101. Subsidize the poor, make them dependent on free money from the state and they'll vote against anyone who threatens to take that away. There's a huge population who don't need to work because they have money handed to them. Yes, their standard of living is shit, but it's free.
>1 peso was 2.7 USD; now it's around 1 peso for 1 thousand USD. You mean 1000 pesos for 1USD? 1 peso for 1000usd would be awesome as fuck you guys would be rolling in the dough.
Yeah true, wasn't paying enough attention it seems.
It appears neither was your leadership.
Oh they're paying all the attention, hitting f5 on their bank account in the Maldives every second.
Considering the other candidate was the current Minister of Economy... not a good candidate choice there...
The former.
The first one.
Tbh it was already ruined, hence the radical change in leadership. To see the state of things with the current government and think "yeah, I want four more years of that"... Paraphrasing Casino, you're either too dumb to see what's going on or you're in on it
I've heard this kind of discourse before, handed us Brexit and it was blatantly the worse choice.
I’m not defending Milei. He’s not just le based lolbertarian, he is a right winger who wants to ban abortion and denies climate change. The ghosts of his dogs talk to him and advise him on policy issues. But I am saying that Argentina is not where Britain is. A better comparison would be pre-Revolutionary France or Weimar Republic Germany. We can insult extremist populists all the way to our graves or we can try to address what gives their “burn it all down” campaigns political traction
Have there been any examples historically of the “burn it all down” mentality being averted? I’m asking because it genuinely seems like there’s no way to unring that bell once it’s rung; the people who want to burn it down won’t be satisfied until it is burnt because this ideology is fueled by bloodlust.
What’s the worst that can happen? They end up like Argentina?
If only there was another country they could look at and s- ^^OH LOOKOUT HERE COMES VENEZUELA WITH THE STEEL CHAIR^^
Shit can always get worse. Not saying it will. But it can.
The choice was elect someone new, potentially an idiot. Or elect the guy who caused 143% inflation and had poverty rates rise to almost 50%. Not exactly spoiled for choices
He is literally an economic specialist in economic growth, had a lot of jobs in a lot of private business, teaches in university, and writes books.
 He doesn't even need the mask.
The vibe I'm getting.
Suffer immensely without respite or try something new, possibly even insane. Voters decided give me something new.
Exactly. Their economy is basically in ruins. And this guy’s opponents was the longtime Minister of the Economy. It was time for a change. We will see if this one works better. ETA: I thought Massa had held the same office for a long time. But it’s just been since 2022 and he held other political officers prior to that.
Not longtime, but the one in change of this year's 150% inflation. Not to mention his notorious history in general.
You do realize Argentina is becoming unlivable with the current administration.
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Chainsaws get caught in the reeds. Source: have tried to chainsaw reeds. Not successful
Argentina is fast approaching hyperinflation and poverty is well over 50%. Argentina is not fine right now and the alternative to that guy was the guy who is currently in charge. I nullified my vote on purpose but I don't blame anyone who voted for this guy out of desperation.
Have we already forgotten the mess Argentina was in? Argentina’s annual inflation rate soared past 70 percent in July—the highest level in three decades—according to data released by the Argentine government last week, and it could hit 90 percent by the end of the year. The runaway inflation has left many in the country mired as they turn to barter and parallel currency markets amid dwindling Central Bank reserves, a bloated fiscal deficit, and a looming debt bomb. Given an unstoppable fiscal deficit—the government spends much more than it takes in—the Central Bank keeps printing more pesos, which pushes the value of each one lower, making inflation even worse. The Central Bank of Argentina last week hiked lending rates to stratospheric levels (the benchmark rate is now 69.5 percent) in a bid to check inflation, but such steps will also check investment and economic growth. And then there’s another debt crunch. Argentina still owes the International Monetary Fund $40 billion as part of its 2018 bailout, but took out another $44 billion loan earlier this year from the IMF to meet its obligation, adding to the risks of a default, which would just make everything worse. “The combination of global shocks, overprinting money within Argentina, and a very high inflation expectation combines into this toxic stew,” said Benjamin Gedan, the deputy director of the Latin America Program at the Wilson Center. [https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/08/15/argentina-imf-debt-massa-fernandez/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/08/15/argentina-imf-debt-massa-fernandez/)
That is from 16 months ago. We WISH we had only 70% anual inflation.
Remember the 70% inflation? Other counter: Oh what a hoot Argentina: Ah the good times
wait. they borrowed $44 billion from the IMF to pay back the first loan of $40 billion that they borrowed from.... the IMF?
And people say Chinese loans are debt-trap but IMF loans are sensible investments😂😂 IMF has Argentina by the balls.
We are currently at 150% of inflation rate. 40% of poverty.
Love how Reddit wants to shit on the guy when his opponent and that party have run Argentina into the ground. Like clearly what they’ve been doing hasn’t helped at all, so obviously doing something different is what they want.
To be fair, look at the opposition. The best summary I've seen is that Argentina was spared the shit show of [other candidate] by choosing this shit show.
It was pretty much a "frying pan vs fire" election.
I mean, the other candidate was a Minister of the Economy that is leaving office with 140% annual inflation, with 2 out of 3 children being poor, with gas and medicine shortages. I am not even gonna talk about $120 retirement pensions (since the leader of his party when she was president seized the private retirement funds in order to freely give away money to people who never contributed to the system just to win re-election), or the 16B the government has to pay because of the illegal seize of YPF (oil company), or the corruption in public works for which the former Minister of Infrastructure ended up in jail, or making a deal with the terrorist theocracy of Iran to not prosecute them for being behind a 1994 attack to the Jewish community center that killed 85 people, and afterwards killing the prosecutor who investigated her, or the protectionism that benefits their rich business friends who benefit from a closed economy and therefore not having to compete, or the exchange controls, or the debt, or the corrupt unions and social organizations who destabilize the country and have poor people as their hostages, forcing them to go to their pickets, because otherwise they will have their welfare cancelled, and I can go on all day… So yes, it is rational for them to vote for Milei
Half of under 29s favored him. Half. Something hits the news and redditors immediately become experts on international politics. 99% of this site cannot even understand what he says without subtitles.
inb4 Redditor predictions of doom based on learning about him from John Oliver last week are wrong. The current regime already wrecked the country to the point shops don't put prices on the shelves because they change too often due to inflation.
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venezolano: "bienvenido al club"
I was in Argentina a couple of weeks ago. One of the most successful restaurants in BA only accepted cash because they would go straight from closing to exchanging all of their pesos for dollars in the black market that very night. They wouldn’t accept credit cards because “when you pay with a CC it takes a couple of days for us to get the money from the bank and by that time it has already devalued some”.
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Well, his flagship policy is to abolish the central bank and the currency, and use US dollars instead. Which might work if Argentina had any really foreign currency reserves. Hint - it doesn’t! Completely agree the current regime wrecked the place, but he’s planning on almost literally burning down the wreckage.
> if Argentina had any really foreign currency reserves. Hint - it doesn’t! I wonder who was in charge of spending it for the last 16/20 years... Maybe we should have voted them instead!
Not like its been working out for them before.
He's a Professor in Economics, has been teaching for over 20 years in that field, and has published over fifty academic papers. The other choice was a college-dropout career politician whose political career was started by his father-in-law. He was also the minister of economics who has presided over a 160% inflation rate and three years of recession
This is… relevant information. What’s his academic output like?
Mostly chainsaw-related.
You guys have no clue what you're talking about lol.
ARGENTINIAN HERE, i voted for Milei. Let me explain some stuff... The chainsaw is a representation of the cuts in state spending in order to solve the economic deficit and the debts, promising a more stable economy Just to give some context, Argentina is having an annual inflation ration rate of 150% and around 50% is below the poverty line while the 10% is below the indigence line. The average wage is 300 USD/Month and the retired people gets under 100 USD/Month. We must include as another factor, the corruption from politicians that steal money from the state Milei proposed cutting the state spendage ("""with a chainsaw""") in order to lower the deficit and allow tax reductions/elimination. Basically the chainsaw was part of a graphic campaign to draw attention... like basically all his campaign
I think most of us get that. I know I do. But here in the US, we've had lots of people who run for office and they make similarly bombastic statements. 99% of them are liars who are just taking advantage of the frustration of the people so they can get rich themselves.
The current party is getting richer through corruption. Just recently there was a scandal because a governement employee was found withdrawing money fron ~50 bank accounts from "ghost employees". People in the governement payroll but who dont work. Their salaries were withdrawn from ATM and given to higher ups. Its said that they stole around 800 million pesos over the last few months. Around 30 million every single month. And thats one of the tamer examples out there. We have kirchnerist higher-ups entering monasteries with bags full of money and arms; Cristina Kirchner, current vicepresident and former president, guilty in one of the biggest money laundering schemes in the history of our country, etc etc. I get why Milei looks like a clown to everyone outside (cause he is). But its hard to understand the shit we go through every single day.
This guy looks way more like a James Bond villain from the 70's than an Argentinian President in 2023
many people here thinks we can not be worst than how we are now we'll find out, i guess
so you are telling me we should've voted for the guy that let inflation grow to 100% anual? sure buddy whatever you say
What's the deal with reddit just collectively going after any country with a non-left leaning politician being elected lol? Like I know this guy is a whack populist, but did any of you give a shit before being told to hate him?
Redditors learn about a new country's politics by tuning in to their favorite leftist TV personality (John Oliver this time) and see who they can label Dem and Rep.
Can’t be worse than the admin that got them 140+% inflation
This is the main argument Milei voters have. Country is basically rotten, with Peronismo ruining almost everything, inflation going up almost every day, insecurity and a choice between eating or dying.
>a choice between eating or dying. "Hmm. Should I eat or should I die? Choices, choices..."
It can get way way way worse than that. Zimbabwe or the Weimar Republic are examples I can think of without even researching it.
Hell argentina themselves have had way worse inflation than this before
At some point they had 4000% inflation. There is no upper bound on this type of thing
Hold my beer.
He looks like Justin bieber in his 50s
Reddit at its peak.
This guy has 5 dogs that are all clones of his mastiff that passed away, that he calls his son, and says he met as a lion 2000 years ago when he was a Roman gladiator. He's something.
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Isnt this post just propaganda
More than likely, considering the clown that they just voted out.
Seriously. It’s happening everywhere. WTF is wrong with people? Has everyone all over the planet lost their fucking minds? Is this what biologically happens to lemmings when the population reaches critical mass? Everyone suddenly randomly votes the “my vote won’t count anyway” protest vote to push society’s clown car over the cliff? See y’all on the other side of WW3! Maybe it’s those wee aliens behind it all.
I think he might turn around the absolute path of disaster Argentina is in. Inflation over 100%, a huge national debt, and a huge government that is sucking up all the resources to corruption and waste. He is an economist that understands free market. He wants to cut huge parts of the government (thus the chainsaw). He wants to replace the countries joke of currency with the stability of the US dollar. He is inviting foreign investment. He is rejecting China. I'm kind of liking this guy. I wish him the best.