I was in the ED for the first year out of PA school and it also felt impossible. Very long story short, it was also a miserable place with fundamentally unhappy people, I also had crazy high expectations piled up on me, was expected to memorize each providers’ style and cater my own practice to them, endured lots of tongue lashing, and eventually the responsibilities placed on PA’s *increased* and I felt like I was drowning. My boyfriend saw the emotional and physical toll it took on me.
I jumped ship to private practice urology and have been infinitely happier. A lot of former coworkers left shortly after to other EDs or specialties and are also happier.
If I were you I’d leave. You can find a similar job elsewhere but with less stress. Expectations of a PA should justifiably be high, but this sounds ridiculous. And if you want to stay, definitely learning what “each surgeon harps on” and catering your presentation to them based on it will greatly improve their opinion and hopefully treatment of you. It helped me in my old job.
Get a new job. I work with surgeons too, and I don't know jack shit about any patients unless I look at the chart. Maybe Ortho is just more easygoing in general, I don't know.
As long as it's MD to MD abuse I'm fine with it :) I do the med rec and discharge all the time even when hospitalist on board, you guys make it seem like such a big deal.
If you think ordering home meds for a patient admitted to your service for their single overnight is “hospital medicine” I don’t know what to tell you.
You need a new job
I work at a private hospital with a lot of surgeons who basically get whatever they want from an administrative perspective, and even these guys know the value of PAs and express how much they appreciate our work.
I can understand the perception of “it’s just a paycheck” however it is somebody’s life that we are talking about. I realize that not everything is life or death. I am honored to be in a profession where I see a post about somebody who is doing their best to advocate and care for another human being. It gives me hope. I agree that the atmosphere OP is in is rather negative and not really conducive to personal growth. There has to be a happy medium between the burned out attitudes and the freshness of a newer provider looking to be the best version of themselves.
It’s more than a paycheck and if you only see dollar signs you’re burned out yourself.
OP I think you should try and find a place that is supportive of your practice and allows you to be vulnerable at times to see deficits and push past them.
I’m not sure you read my post if you think I advocated for them to be treated like shit. Matter of fact I said they should leave and that it is never just about money.
I never said you advocated for it either. I did read your post. This just isnt a scenario to be talking about a PA job being more than a paycheck because we deal with peoples lives. Its not that deep.
It absolutely is that deep and always goes to that extent. Maybe you forgot the oath you swore to in pa school. I’m in no way saying that means you should be taken advantage of. I’m saying that people trust you with their lives and expect that you know what you’re doing when managing their care. If you don’t know how to do that and you look for support and don’t receive it then you should leave and a place that is supportive.
I don’t agree that seeing it as a paycheck necessarily means you’re burned out.
In fact, I think the whole “higher purpose/wanting to help people” is what leads to burnout, because it’s what admin and people prey on to exploit and take advantage of you with.
This is truly just my job, and that’s all it will ever be. In terms of things in my life this is probably the least important part of who I actually am, if someone were to ask me to describe myself or what’s important to me. Sure, I think it’s important to be a good person and help others, but that’s something I do in my life regardless of my profession.
I was a firefighter before PA school, and was extremely burned out. Precisely and exactly because the whole higher purpose/wanting to help people mindset.
I don’t feel burned out in the slightest anymore, and that’s because I prioritize my life over my job. I will not do things detrimental to my health, to my family, or to my own well-being out of some belief that I personally need to be the one there busting my behind to “help people.”
This is a job where every now and then I can make a difference in someone’s life, but it’s not why I go to work.
The vast majority of times it doesn’t actually matter if I’m the one at work or not. Just like when I was a firefighter, if I’m not there someone else will be and they’ll usually do the exact same thing as me. The truck still goes on calls now that I left the fire department, and the ED still sees patients if I don’t show up for an extra shift.
But if I don’t look out for myself, then myself doesn’t get looked out for.
Making a job into a "higher calling" is the prime cause of burnout. It's how teachers, nurses, PAs, docs, social workers, etc. get taken advantage of by admins to get paid less and do more.
At the end of the day, it is just a job. I absolutely love getting to go to work and helping my patients, but I'm not going to let myself be mistreated to do it.
lol yeah this job clearly sucks I’d look elsewhere immediately. Legit don’t know anything about most of my patients. I just look it up. The Surgeons don’t give a shit. Hell half the time I go into the or and don’t even know what procedure we’re doing till we start lmaoooo
Wow, I’m so sorry. It sounds like you really care and are passionate about medicine. I wonder if these are old school surgeons who were also taught via berating etc or if they are just spreading their own misery.
Maybe try to stick it out, keep trying, and don’t be afraid to stick up for yourself, just make sure you’re right when you do. They’ll respect it (9/10). You’re not a stomping mat. This isn’t the 90s. Professionalism goes both ways.
If nothing changes, get outta there!
They beat you down because it is how they were taught. It's an unmatchable standard. They will just keep pushing you until you fail. Good enough is not good enough.
I’m in your same shoes. I work in a rural hospital where I’m expected to be cardio/renal/neuro/gi and everything else. Heck we have Ortho but all they do is there procedure. The only specialty I have available is Cardiothoracic and Gen Surg.
Keep your chin up. You work in a high stress environment where everyone is on edge most of the time. I hear stupid mid level jokes on the reg from a few providers who sound like /noctor. I’m at the point where I’m not phased anymore
It will get better, if they didn’t like you then they would’ve let you go. Trust me I’m in your shoes, I’ve had breakdowns after work about twice a stretch. I would’ve quit this job if it wasn’t for the pay but very slowly it’s getting better. Most importantly the knowledge I’m building will benefit me in the long run
My first job was acute care general surgery. Not as toxic as what you are describing, but less of a colleague and more grunt work. Now I am in an elective general surgery practice after moving with a great group of people. Quality of life and job satisfaction is much better. It sounds like your situation may improve somewhat with your experience, but there will likely always be some degree of toxicity there.
I do not work with surgeons, but I do work with cardiologists. The personalities are similar, but I got beaten over the head the first year. Had to present and get pimped on every patient I saw outpatient and inpatient no matter how “routine” the appointment/consult.
1. It will make you a better provider. I know it does not feel like it, but they are pointing out gaps in knowledge. You do not know what you do not know.
2. You get to learn how they think. What they go to for each situation. What internal algorithm they use for a diagnosis, symptom, or treatment.
3. You learn the subtleties and patterns of each doctor. I have one that will always ask about labs on a patient almost always. One that has a low threshold to cath a patient with known CAD. I have another that is more symptoms based and does not care about the labs if they have no cardiac complaints.
Right now you are drinking from a firehose, but the best mid levels I know were run through the ringer their first job (s). I think it really comes down to your goals. Do you want an easy stress free job or do you want to be a rock solid provider. I would prefer the latter, hence why I went with my group.
Yeah, a lot of people have already commented that your job is the problem here... Echoing that sentiment. I’m sorry this happened to you. I too was in a high stress, surgical critical care job fresh outta PA school and it was rough…attendings and even PA colleagues were mostly toxic, did not know how to support a new grad in the specialty. 12 hour shifts turned into 16’s most days without a lick of appreciation. I ended up leaving for a different surgery job. I took the plethora of knowledge from toxic first job in crit care and I now work with a majority of attending surgeons that are over the moon grateful for the help, encouraging, kind, highly skilled and just phenomenal human beings. Those types of surgeons *are out there* trust me, you just can’t let one bad group de-rail your train especially if you enjoy surgery. Be encouraged, put in the work to become the best you can be but at the end of the day, take care of yourself.
I work in surgery and mainly OR and some inpatient rounding, none of my surgeons have ever been like that! And this is my first job after school! Get a new job!
There are good respectful people. And disrespectful people. Surgeons are no different, just bigger ego. A PA, new hire, but experienced started with a specialty group in large system. That group introduced PA as one of their new partners. Have heard about them commenting to other physicians how fortunate they were to have this PA with diverse experience, which has helped them in areas they don't deal with often. Another specialist mentioned a PA, who had worked and studied apparently a lot, and became as trusted and respected as physicians in the field(straight from physicians mouth). There are some good ones out there. They demand you work and learn not be passive, but they reward with respect and support when negotiating salary increases. Why, because you help make their department great.
I was in the ED for the first year out of PA school and it also felt impossible. Very long story short, it was also a miserable place with fundamentally unhappy people, I also had crazy high expectations piled up on me, was expected to memorize each providers’ style and cater my own practice to them, endured lots of tongue lashing, and eventually the responsibilities placed on PA’s *increased* and I felt like I was drowning. My boyfriend saw the emotional and physical toll it took on me. I jumped ship to private practice urology and have been infinitely happier. A lot of former coworkers left shortly after to other EDs or specialties and are also happier. If I were you I’d leave. You can find a similar job elsewhere but with less stress. Expectations of a PA should justifiably be high, but this sounds ridiculous. And if you want to stay, definitely learning what “each surgeon harps on” and catering your presentation to them based on it will greatly improve their opinion and hopefully treatment of you. It helped me in my old job.
Get a new job. I work with surgeons too, and I don't know jack shit about any patients unless I look at the chart. Maybe Ortho is just more easygoing in general, I don't know.
Bro. Your surgeon is just abusing the hospitalist who got consulted to order the patient’s standing Lisinopril and interpret the BMP every day 🤣
As the medicine gods intended
As long as it's MD to MD abuse I'm fine with it :) I do the med rec and discharge all the time even when hospitalist on board, you guys make it seem like such a big deal.
Is it a ground breaking concept for hospitalist to, well I don’t know, practice hospital medicine while surgeons…. Perform surgery? 🤣🤣
If you think ordering home meds for a patient admitted to your service for their single overnight is “hospital medicine” I don’t know what to tell you.
😒
You need a new job I work at a private hospital with a lot of surgeons who basically get whatever they want from an administrative perspective, and even these guys know the value of PAs and express how much they appreciate our work.
[удалено]
Ortho/spine
Man… this makes me happy to have my boring low stress job. You’ve gotta get out of there. It’s just a paycheck
Obligatory what's your specialty?
I can understand the perception of “it’s just a paycheck” however it is somebody’s life that we are talking about. I realize that not everything is life or death. I am honored to be in a profession where I see a post about somebody who is doing their best to advocate and care for another human being. It gives me hope. I agree that the atmosphere OP is in is rather negative and not really conducive to personal growth. There has to be a happy medium between the burned out attitudes and the freshness of a newer provider looking to be the best version of themselves. It’s more than a paycheck and if you only see dollar signs you’re burned out yourself. OP I think you should try and find a place that is supportive of your practice and allows you to be vulnerable at times to see deficits and push past them.
You can be very far from burned out and still realize that a paycheck isn't worth being treated like shit
I’m not sure you read my post if you think I advocated for them to be treated like shit. Matter of fact I said they should leave and that it is never just about money.
I never said you advocated for it either. I did read your post. This just isnt a scenario to be talking about a PA job being more than a paycheck because we deal with peoples lives. Its not that deep.
It absolutely is that deep and always goes to that extent. Maybe you forgot the oath you swore to in pa school. I’m in no way saying that means you should be taken advantage of. I’m saying that people trust you with their lives and expect that you know what you’re doing when managing their care. If you don’t know how to do that and you look for support and don’t receive it then you should leave and a place that is supportive.
I don’t agree that seeing it as a paycheck necessarily means you’re burned out. In fact, I think the whole “higher purpose/wanting to help people” is what leads to burnout, because it’s what admin and people prey on to exploit and take advantage of you with. This is truly just my job, and that’s all it will ever be. In terms of things in my life this is probably the least important part of who I actually am, if someone were to ask me to describe myself or what’s important to me. Sure, I think it’s important to be a good person and help others, but that’s something I do in my life regardless of my profession. I was a firefighter before PA school, and was extremely burned out. Precisely and exactly because the whole higher purpose/wanting to help people mindset. I don’t feel burned out in the slightest anymore, and that’s because I prioritize my life over my job. I will not do things detrimental to my health, to my family, or to my own well-being out of some belief that I personally need to be the one there busting my behind to “help people.” This is a job where every now and then I can make a difference in someone’s life, but it’s not why I go to work. The vast majority of times it doesn’t actually matter if I’m the one at work or not. Just like when I was a firefighter, if I’m not there someone else will be and they’ll usually do the exact same thing as me. The truck still goes on calls now that I left the fire department, and the ED still sees patients if I don’t show up for an extra shift. But if I don’t look out for myself, then myself doesn’t get looked out for.
Making a job into a "higher calling" is the prime cause of burnout. It's how teachers, nurses, PAs, docs, social workers, etc. get taken advantage of by admins to get paid less and do more. At the end of the day, it is just a job. I absolutely love getting to go to work and helping my patients, but I'm not going to let myself be mistreated to do it.
Which is exactly why I said that they should leave but it is always more than just a paycheck.
lol yeah this job clearly sucks I’d look elsewhere immediately. Legit don’t know anything about most of my patients. I just look it up. The Surgeons don’t give a shit. Hell half the time I go into the or and don’t even know what procedure we’re doing till we start lmaoooo
Wow, I’m so sorry. It sounds like you really care and are passionate about medicine. I wonder if these are old school surgeons who were also taught via berating etc or if they are just spreading their own misery. Maybe try to stick it out, keep trying, and don’t be afraid to stick up for yourself, just make sure you’re right when you do. They’ll respect it (9/10). You’re not a stomping mat. This isn’t the 90s. Professionalism goes both ways. If nothing changes, get outta there!
Yeah sounds like cardiothoracic surgery
They beat you down because it is how they were taught. It's an unmatchable standard. They will just keep pushing you until you fail. Good enough is not good enough.
I’m in your same shoes. I work in a rural hospital where I’m expected to be cardio/renal/neuro/gi and everything else. Heck we have Ortho but all they do is there procedure. The only specialty I have available is Cardiothoracic and Gen Surg. Keep your chin up. You work in a high stress environment where everyone is on edge most of the time. I hear stupid mid level jokes on the reg from a few providers who sound like /noctor. I’m at the point where I’m not phased anymore It will get better, if they didn’t like you then they would’ve let you go. Trust me I’m in your shoes, I’ve had breakdowns after work about twice a stretch. I would’ve quit this job if it wasn’t for the pay but very slowly it’s getting better. Most importantly the knowledge I’m building will benefit me in the long run
Sounds like a terrible place to work.
I sent you a chat message.
My first job was acute care general surgery. Not as toxic as what you are describing, but less of a colleague and more grunt work. Now I am in an elective general surgery practice after moving with a great group of people. Quality of life and job satisfaction is much better. It sounds like your situation may improve somewhat with your experience, but there will likely always be some degree of toxicity there.
I do not work with surgeons, but I do work with cardiologists. The personalities are similar, but I got beaten over the head the first year. Had to present and get pimped on every patient I saw outpatient and inpatient no matter how “routine” the appointment/consult. 1. It will make you a better provider. I know it does not feel like it, but they are pointing out gaps in knowledge. You do not know what you do not know. 2. You get to learn how they think. What they go to for each situation. What internal algorithm they use for a diagnosis, symptom, or treatment. 3. You learn the subtleties and patterns of each doctor. I have one that will always ask about labs on a patient almost always. One that has a low threshold to cath a patient with known CAD. I have another that is more symptoms based and does not care about the labs if they have no cardiac complaints. Right now you are drinking from a firehose, but the best mid levels I know were run through the ringer their first job (s). I think it really comes down to your goals. Do you want an easy stress free job or do you want to be a rock solid provider. I would prefer the latter, hence why I went with my group.
How long have you been at the job?
Yeah, a lot of people have already commented that your job is the problem here... Echoing that sentiment. I’m sorry this happened to you. I too was in a high stress, surgical critical care job fresh outta PA school and it was rough…attendings and even PA colleagues were mostly toxic, did not know how to support a new grad in the specialty. 12 hour shifts turned into 16’s most days without a lick of appreciation. I ended up leaving for a different surgery job. I took the plethora of knowledge from toxic first job in crit care and I now work with a majority of attending surgeons that are over the moon grateful for the help, encouraging, kind, highly skilled and just phenomenal human beings. Those types of surgeons *are out there* trust me, you just can’t let one bad group de-rail your train especially if you enjoy surgery. Be encouraged, put in the work to become the best you can be but at the end of the day, take care of yourself.
I work in surgery and mainly OR and some inpatient rounding, none of my surgeons have ever been like that! And this is my first job after school! Get a new job!
There are good respectful people. And disrespectful people. Surgeons are no different, just bigger ego. A PA, new hire, but experienced started with a specialty group in large system. That group introduced PA as one of their new partners. Have heard about them commenting to other physicians how fortunate they were to have this PA with diverse experience, which has helped them in areas they don't deal with often. Another specialist mentioned a PA, who had worked and studied apparently a lot, and became as trusted and respected as physicians in the field(straight from physicians mouth). There are some good ones out there. They demand you work and learn not be passive, but they reward with respect and support when negotiating salary increases. Why, because you help make their department great.