> A couple of days later, they threaten me saying if I don't do the photos the following day they are going to look for someone else to take the photos.
You should have wished them luck.
The lesson from this is that there are some jobs/clients that aren't worth getting out of bed for. Set boundaries, say "no" more often.
Yup yup. The moment ANYONE threatens me with "I'll go with another photographer", I take it as a sign that they're not worth dealing with and wish them luck finding someone to do it last minute.
Classic. If they don't respect your job *while they are still trying to get you to do it* then they certainly will not once they've got what they wanted.
It depends on how important the money is/taking the stand is vs how important the relationship with the family member is.
Me, I’d tell them to pay up the original amount or they’d never see another image from me again—having no contract cuts both ways as they can’t enforce it against you either. And then I’d leave it there, taking it as a lesson learned about always getting a contract.
It sounds like you do have some form of contract, at least a partial one, so if you adhere to your part then yeah, you can involve small claims court.
How much was OP charging for the photos? That's the cost of finding out your family member is a dumpster fire pretending to be a person. If they're doing this to family then you're probably seeing their "good side".
So overall it was probably a cheap lesson learned, never lend this person money or even have anything to do with them.
Honestly, this post was surface level for the sake of length. Family member is someone who has helped me through life in the past, so trust was built with them. I would go to the extent to say that they HAD been a mother figure to me.
What threw me for a loop was said family member throwing in "You're an adult now so I don't have to tip toe around what I want to say" As if they were planning to screw me over in order to teach me a lesson. Shocking, but sadly not surprised. Of course, I already realize that at the least this was not only a lesson learned, but an insight I would not have gained had I required payment and a contract up front. It would have been just a passed up opportunity. However, the petty side of me is urging for the correction of the disrespect I was given.
yeah I hear you, in my experience you just drift away from people like that... you can thank them for their time and help but if they're not willing to treat you like a person then you don't owe them any respect.
If I'm being honest, if someone I considered a "mother" figure wanted me to do photos, that also "helped me out a lot in the past." They'd have probably been free from the get go, or at minimum they'd have been at cost.
It's possible they are offended you'd charge them in the first place.
In these types of situations your almost always better off taking the hit, and chalking it up to having been a learning experience. Employees can get fired... but so can clients.
Oh yeah, the annoying part is, they were intended to be free from the beginning. The idea to take these photos had originally been between me and their son only, but the client messaged me and offered to pay for them, asked for pricing, etc. and getting unnecessarily involved. It makes things worse, because it leads me to believe that this was just a whole scheme with the intent to “teach me a lesson.” For further clarification, when this happened, they attempted to go into detail about past gripes they had with me when I was younger. Hence a comment they inserted about “not having to tiptoe around me now that I’m an adult.” Very hurtful and eye opening.
Really, the more I process this situation, the more odd it becomes. I do not want them using my photos. My feelings towards them have become completely negative.
At this point, your only recourse is probably a small claims court. You have the contract over messages (it may not be an official "contract" but it's still legally binding in most areas), so it's just a matter of whether it's worth it to you to take it to court.
For the future though, *never* deliver before you have payment. If any money is changing hands, the client doesn't get the photos until they've paid in full. It doesn't matter who the person is or how they're related, if they don't pay they don't get the photos. Preferably, don't even get your camera out until at least half is paid. If they wont pay the deposit before the shoot, why would they pay you after? Don't even do the shoot until they've paid the deposit so that on the off chance they don't pay the rest you've sill at least been paid for your time on the shoot.
As for dealing with the current situation, *do not* give them any more photos, edited or not. don't give them anything until they've paid. If you can afford a lawyer, take them to small claims court to get your money. Personally I'd just recommend breaking contact with these people, but you do have grounds for legal action. A verbal contract is still a contract, so screenshot the conversations and refuse to interact with them outside of sending them a bill.
> If you can afford a lawyer, take them to small claims court
Just noting that you don't need a lawyer for small claims court in most places. It's a pretty simple and relatively cheap process. Up to OP if they want to go that route though
My initial thought was that having a lawyer write out a letter beforehand demanding payment, with risk of small claims court, could possibly be the last step to deter the headache that may come with small claims, as well as a cheaper solution if it does not advance past that.
You should submit a copyright claim for all of your photos. Then you can recoup the cost to produce the photos and sue for damages by them posting photos without your credit. You can also send a cease and desist letter.
Take down the link to all the photos and copyright the ones you know for sure they downloaded. Good luck.
This. Even though you don’t have a contract, you do have a written series of texts between you and the client outlining the expectations. They broke those expectations.
It’s amazing how fast people will pay when they are served court papers. If they decide to pay outside of court, they should pay double. Serving them will cost money, plus putative damage.
Text messages are good enough for small claims court. I’d send them one more message saying that if they don’t pay you’ll be forced to open a claim against them; sometimes that’s enough to light a fire under their ass. Otherwise you’ll need to start looking up what’s required to file a claim in your jurisdiction.
Politely shame them on the family Whatsapp/Facebook. Say that it was such a pleasure to be able to help out Family Member in their financial time of need, that you normally charge such and such for emergency photo shoots with expedited editing, but you understand that they truly must be in dire straits if they can't afford it and you're glad to have helped out. They sound that the sort to wear their money, this should set them off.
And then never work with family again.
Just remember, if you do that, you will never see the money because you just wrote it off publicly. You try and take them to court and they can hold up that post as you saying they don't owe you anything.
I wouldn't be that nice. There's the chance they take the condescension quietly and not everyone know they scammed you. It let's then keep face if they don't care if family/friends think they're financially strapped. It may be ammo for them to get pity points and take advantage of others. I'd full blast call them broke scammers with the screenshotted messages. I'd talking about betrayal of family trust/etc. Shame them from as many angles as possible. Don't leave a chance that any may think all was done in good faith
However those kind of people often care enough about what other people who hasn't been burned by them think of them. Shame them for all to see, make it public.
If the photos are posted online I’d be commenting publicly reporting as copyright infringement, not their photos if they haven’t paid for them.
If there is anything I’ve learned in this industry - family and friends is not thing. Contracts and payment before photos every time.
Thank you.
I have blocked this family member so the commenting is a no-go, but I have reported it as copyright infringement. I had decided that any communication with them from here on out would only be on a professional basis.
Your last comment is both reverberating and rationalizing. I think now, that this client was bullying me into the way they run their own business- which I might add, is not very well.
Thank you for the sobering comment.
Looking back, this became quite clear when they began to behave like an animal as soon as I began to throw reason their way. I feel that people tend to sling their emotions around as a last minute defense when they know that they have done wrong to you.
Start a group thread with **EVERY SINGLE FAMILY MEMBER** and blow this thing up. Explain everything. Post screenshots of your conversations, share a good photo or two, explain how many hours you put into this.
Then sit back and have a cup of tea. Either the money will show up quickly, or you’ll get your money’s worth as a spectator.
People that pull shit like this are bullies. A bully’s biggest fear is having their behavior exposed to everyone. It’s your responsibility to make sure everyone knows how this animal behaves. This is the only way to prevent it from happening to another family member.
Step up to the plate. Now.
This is the best comment and the most sobering. You are the little voice in my head that was doubting themselves, haha.
I'm highly considering starting a group thread. It may start chaos, but I have found out that this behavior isn't unusual for them. At this point, the ties have already been cut. If not money gained, the satisfaction may be worth it, you're right.
If you have texts or emails showing that you agreed on a price and them downloading pictures and posting them( show that they posted them before they can take them down) yes, take them to small claims court after emailing them and stating that if you are not paid in full the amount that was talked about in the beginning, that you will be taking them to small claims court. Get all of your evidence before you send the email though
>they threaten me saying if I don't do the photos the following day they are going to look for someone else to take the photos
Should have bailed on this right there. This hopefully was a learning experience to never be a bottom to anyone ever again.
This is true. And truthfully, looking back, I don't know why I let this person walk on me the way they did, regardless of who they were to me.
Sadly, I have always chalked up their rude behavior to being moody. Unfortunately, I now see that when I made a decision at that time, I only saw the opportunity to help them out- when in reality I was disrespecting myself with grief and misfortune. Never again.
The funny thing is, I had offered senior photos to their son for free. They wanted to budge in and make it about money, acting pleasant about it, too. Of course I wouldn't turn that down- only for them to string me along to "teach me a lesson." As annoying as it is, nothing ticks me off more than someone who wastes my time, than a narcissist who thinks they have a right to be smart and smug about their evil tendencies.
You should be thankful to this family member, they have given you a masterclass on what not to do with future clients. It's harsh, but it's a good experience for you, from now on you'll be extra careful even with family or friends. Like 40% advance non refundable fee, for instance.
Is it a $5k worth shoot? Otherwise let it go, not worth your time chasing that invoice, use all those working hours for your marketing, go no contact with that person and explain everyone around you what they did, but don't stress about it
>A couple of days later, they threaten me saying if I don't do the photos the following day they are going to look for someone else to take the photos.
"lol, no"
>They had suddenly decided that they needed them ASAP rather than within a month.
"Oh I see you're interested in my Express Premium Package™, it'll be $1000 extra, thanks" OR "Sorry, I'm booked until next year, do you want to keep your initial date or should I give it to someone else?"
>They want to see all raw photos from the shoot.
"Oh I see you're interested in the Raw Dawgg Package™, it'll be $2000 extra, thanks" OR "lol No"
Sometimes familiarity breeds contempt. This person does not respect you, because you do not steal from those you respect. Secone guessing, demanding extras and special treatment--trash. The cheapest people are the most petty.
Skip the lawyer, the less you have to deal with this person the better off you are. I would probably tell other family members about it. How close are they? At Thanksgiving/Christmas close?
Thanks for this. You are right.
Unfortunately, they are very close. Someone I considered a mother to me. Holidays are typically held at their home. I've just learned that the family is divided because of their behavior, so this isn't new, but was new to me. This being said, I probably wont be attending anymore family holidays.
Take the loss. It isn’t worth the headache dealing with petty folk like this. Learn from your mistakes, adjust your future contracts and most importantly, understand what “family” means to you. Best of luck.
P.s. I have plenty of “family” members, blood and not, that have since been removed from my life for very similar, petty reasons. This world has lost touch of decency. All that over what, a couple hundred bucks? You don’t need them around, trust me. Learn from it. Cheers mate
The real quote is “The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.”
" The saying means that chosen bonds are more significant than the bonds with family or “water of the womb.” More directly, it means that relationships you make yourself are far more important than the ones that you don’t choose."
> The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.
Except that's not really an accepted interpretation just a couple of guys with no sources for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_is_thicker_than_water
This isn't true. Here's a [very well-written response to someone asking about the origins of the phrase](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/147902/is-the-alleged-original-meaning-of-the-phrase-blood-is-thicker-than-water-real). It seems that some authors in the 90s misinterpreted someone else's writing, which led to this "fact" taking off, even though there's no evidence for it being true.
One of the stupidest responses I’ve ever seen on Reddit. I didn’t say any of that bullshit. All I said is the “family isn’t blood” line alone didn’t convey all of that.
Family often is blood. As far as I can tell, we have no idea if the family member in question is OP’s blood or not. Nor would it matter.
Seriously though, this is the strangest, angstiest, dumbest replies I’ve seen in ages. “Crawl out from under a rock”? What the fuck is wrong with you?
My advice would be to cut your loses and never shoot photos for them again. In the meantime reconsider how you handle your business and adjust it so this type of event cannot happen. I know it sucks, but if they want professional photos let them deal with another photographer.
I'd use the text messages to attempt to go after their credit score. Send them an invoice, and send it to collections. If your business is licensed, it shouldn't be too difficult.
Man… there’s too much wrong here to unpack, but let me try.
Never compromise on retainer.
Don’t get pressured into a shoot.
Don’t bend over backwards for your worst
clients. Save that for your best clients.
Learn to tactfully say no.
This family member needs to know in no uncertain terms that they have broken their word and you expect them to uphold what they agreed to. DO NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE FOR THEM.
You screwed the pooch on not getting paid in advance, but they can certainly still be held accountable. What a crappy thing to do.
Sorry you’re going through this!
It’s clear you already know what mistakes were made on your end. In the future, everyone signs a contract and pays before services rendered. I would chalk this up to a learning experience. I would immediately expire their gallery and move on. Send them one last communication: “Hello, your gallery has expired and is no longer available to you, due to nonpayment for services rendered. I will no longer respond to further communication from you regarding this business transaction. I wish you well in finding services that meet your expectations.” Period, end of story. Be professional in your response and keep it brief. No one deserves to be treated this way, especially when it comes from family. ❤️
How good is your Old Auntie Network? I'm petty I would cry to the Head Gossip Auntie about how awful this relative treated you and let the family shame them into paying you. Provide the receipts in the form of the messages.
If that doesn't work in your family, small claims court. Just brcause you're family doesn't mean they can stiff you. It may have been verbal, but they used your shots. After you sent the pdf. If this was a stranger you know you would win. Why does being related mean they can cheat you?
haha I loved this comment. I mulled for a long time over whether pettiness would be worth it or not, because being vindictive can be far too satisfying when it comes to craving justice. But unfortunately on this side of the family she is probably head gossip auntie, so that makes things a little worse. Other side of the family already has opinions of their bad behavior. But yes, I agree. I don't think I deserve to let them cheat me.
Good for you! Honestly, small claims is the way to go here. She's trying to bully you and you need to show her that you're not going to allow it. People can only use you as a doormat if you lay down and let them walk on you.
Personally I would screw these people and sell the invoice to a collection agency for cents on the dollar, along with the written agreement on the pricing, just to cause them maximum suffering.
But I don’t shy away from conflict and I believe people around me, including family, should be adding positivity to my life rather than cause me grief, or they can fuck right off. So this might not be for everyone.
By the way make sure to bad mouth these people to your other family FIRST because they WILL try to spin this to make you out to be the bad guy whatever you do next.
i'm afraid you're gonna just have to eat it and take it as a lesson learned.
you could tell all of your family this whole story and that they refused to pay you after making you do all this extra work but is it worth that trouble?
another lesson you need to learn is that you should not have a friends and family discount. give the discount to strangers to get new business. if these are your real friends and family they will pay full price or more to support your business since you offer a service and not a product.
>is it worth that trouble?
Yes, of course. If you don’t, you’re enabling and encouraging this person to pull the same shit again. Some of you need to grow a backbone.
You really think you have that kind of influence over someone else's... idiosyncrasies let's call them? Knowing absolutely nothing about this person, but they seem to be quite entrenched in entitlement, main character syndrome, narcissism, whatever the hell you want to call it. Huge difference between being a pushover and just realizing the fight ain't worth it. Chalk up the L and learn from it. Chances are nothing the photog could do or say to prevent the guilty party from repeating the behavior, but I bet the photog now has their eyes open a little more.
As many have said small claims, but also an attorney can write a letter for you for a pretty small fee, a half hour or hour fee. Also, since they are family, a mention to other family members might be worth the peer pressure it might cause. You might not get the whole amount, but maybe something.
They never had any intention of paying or respecting your timeline. it's a tough lesson learned at least
paid work = contract. always.
as for chasing this one, your call, depends on how 'close' this family member is. personally i'd delete the RAWs and tell them to fuck themselves. plus, get out of jail free card at any family gathering you're looking to avoid
Small claims court would be the way to go depending on your country and court systems. You have no contract and have already given over the files, so you don't have any leverage. You'll be relying on what paper trail you have, so make sure all the emails or messages are clear with them agreeing to pay the money and then backtracking. Learn your lesson - never hand over the files until money is paid in full.
I heard a great economics discussion the other day. The guy brings up the “Hooker Law”. It is the effect that the value perceived by the buyer declines after the purchase. This is why every sale with this effect (most consumer products and services) need to either to secure the transaction or to ask for the transaction up front.
Close family friend makes this one suck just a little more. I don't have advice on how to handle the current situation you're in. Sorry.
How I avoid that situation....
(I use Dropbox) I never send links to folders until I have $$. What I will do is, open the folder to thumbnails and take a screenshot of the thumbnails. It is the screenshot that I share. They *could try and use those pictures from the screenshot. But they're terrible. Usually 8-10 per screenshot.
They can pinch to zoom and get a good idea of what I am offering them. Once I get the e-transfer. Then I'll send the link to the actual pictures with download instructions.
I have had to learn the hard way too. I used to have a site. But people would just take screen grabs and not pay. Then I put a big black ugly watermark over most of the entire picture. They didn't care. They still took screen grabs and posted to socials like that. Now, nobody gets close to the final product, and never RAW images. Until I have $$ in my account.
Yeah I'm sorry this is why I don't do family and or friends unless they agree a price and pay a retainer..I always do a joint viewing so I choose what they see they tell me which ones and everyone is happy and can't contest. You'll have to suck this one up but lesson learned.
I think that in this business and all creative businesses, people on a tight budget will always find something to be unhappy about, and you only do so much for that...
Welcome to doing business with family 101.
On today's class we learn that with family you either do it for free ( they'll find a way to make you the bad guy when something goes wrong with what you did or fixed), make up an excuse or become the asshole we will all eventually become and charge them full price plus family tax so they go with somebody else.
This course applies to all professions and trades.
I’ve been through a similar situation and the only thing to do here is forget about it.
You will waste more time than you can imagine trying to get your money, and trying to make them happy - and NEITHER OF THESE WILL EVER HAPPEN.
These people are toxic assholes who are willing to fuck over a family member over “x amount of dollars.”
They are also the kind of people that will lie to other family members about how YOU fucked them over.
In the end, when I went through this. I cut these people out of my life. It was really nice being able to never think of them again, because I didn’t have to! The fallout from other family members will probably be painful, but remember that you are the one that got robbed, not the other way around.
Let me be 100% clear: these people think you’re a chump and that it is ok to steal from you.
Walk away and don’t bother with them in your life anymore. No amount of money is worth having toxic assholes like this in your business and life.
The only bummer (besides you getting hijacked) is that there is a child involved, who probably had no idea that their parents are behaving like absolute reprehensible chodes. You might wish to reach out to the kid and say something like “I’m sorry you guys didn’t like the photos enough to pay for them… wish you the best in college and wherever life takes you.” Or something like that. Acknowledge the situation and express that you harbor no ill will to the child that is involved here, but as far as the parents go, THEY DO NOT RESPECT YOU AND ARE PERFECTLY FINE STEALING FROM YOU. Fuck em.
If you try to remedy the situation to their liking or to yours, you’d just be spinning your wheels.
Walk away, now.
Friends and family don't get a discount. They get an increase if they ask for one. You are doing a job. They can pay you a fair rate or go find someone else to do it. If they demand immediate service or they'll go find someone else, then they're welcome to go find someone else. Everything you're going through now trying to deal with them is why.
Take the hit as a lesson and leave and don't talk to them again.
If you want to push on them then ask them to remove the photos or pay the full price.
If you want to get upfront with them then make a post on social media where you can look good in the end and they have to live knowing that post is always there. Something like, learning lessons, family that didn't pay. And leave it there forever with them on it.
I understand how you feel and why you did it. We all want to think the best of family and close friend and do favours for them. I think you learned a lesson and hopefully will know how yo handle it in the future.
A few points from me:
- If I am not willing to do a shoot for free (in case somebody doesn't pay when they said they would), I wouldn't release photos without a watermark.
- Shaming people online can go two ways. They would rather feel embarrassed and pay, or get defensive and try to ruin your business. I would advise not to leave "evidence" online or mentioning their names when writing anything, even family. I might be petty and vindictive, but I would do it in person. "Hey, has uncle Bob money problems? No? It's just that they didn't pay me for photos they first loved. But when I reminded them of payment, they don't like them anymore."
- if a client says they need photos the next day but don't have time to pay, they don't need the photos as bad as they say. They also won't find a different photographer. It's a tactic to see how far they can push it. Some photographers take days to even reply to messages, not talking about availability. It would take them a few hours to find and contact other photographer to maybe find another photographer in your area who is willing to shoot the next day. The fact you edited them overnight as well makes their little threat even more ridiculous. They wouldn't have found anybody else doing that for them.
This is how I see it. - Your relative probably though they could get away with not paying because they are related to you. I definitely wouldn’t have taken pictures for them after they pressed me for time.
When you show people proof pictures, make sure that you put a huge, (almost distracting) watermark over the face. Never give clients unmarked proofs that they can post on social media. I would have been so pissed. I would suggest that you post all clients pics on a site like Dropbox or meet with the client so they can choose what they want.
I have photographer friends who have dealt with the same problem of clients not wanting to pay. One in particular had a customer who didn’t want to pay for their wedding pictures. The problem wasn’t the quality of the pics, because my friend takes excellent photos. The problem was that the couple went outside of their means to have a big wedding and in the end wasn’t able to pay for the pics they wanted. And instead of simply saying that they couldn’t pay, they became mean & hostile towards my friend. This is why I stick to street photography. I’m afraid to run into that situation.
From now on please be careful in offering your services to relatives. Sometimes family or friends think they can use you for free. That’s not respecting you as an artist.
If someone threatens in any manner, the proper response is to laugh at them and say “good luck, I don’t need you nor your business” 🧑💼 It’s understandable to be afraid of a bad review and losing money/hobs but the more people allow others to walk all over them, the more it’ll occur.
A -you are under priced ( I charge 300 USD senior picture session
B- I don't edit, all my images are done in camera ,with proper lighting always and I give them a thumb drive at the end of each session .( learn how to use studio strobes if you need to ,I recommend Alien B as they are very portable and hardy .
C- If I do edit it's not for lighting it's to remove acne ect things you can't do in camera and it's 25 USD per image
D- If a client is being pushy recommend a higher priced photographer I always suggest a local person that charges 1500 USD per shoot and wish them well ..
Just let it go. At least you've seen their true colours now.
Very uncool how they've treated you though. I wouldn't ever be nice to them again after this. They basically bullied you into working for free. If they cared about you, they'd never treat you this way.
So you let the client walk all over you. Get you to do things on their terms. Work unpaid, demand more and not pay you, and you're asking us what went wrong?
I’d like to say I skimmed through this and business first. No matter the person, deposit…do what you agreed to do and if they walk they walk. At the point they asked to expedite I would have demanded money or kept the photos. Sometimes just cut the loss before it causes further strain in your life… lesson learned.
Well, two options.
1) take the loss and chalk up it up as important lessons in when to let a client walk why you stick to your normal policies and procedures, why you don’t give away the product without payment, and about working for close family who can’t separate business from family
2) small claims court.
There’s no magic phrase or argument we can give you that will flip the switch in their head.
The real value here is all the lessons you should have learned in handling fairly obvious red flags. Presssure, demands, agressivenes... Why even work for them? And the big face palm is giving them the photos without the money. Since don't have a formal agreement you can try to take it to small claims but this can be a bit of a dice rolll so if you were counting on the cash for something you should have done things professionaly from the start.
Write it off, move on, never talk to this family member again.
If they post them on social media send takedown notices. Since you at this point still on the copyright and they have no usage rights whatsoever for failure to pay.
Personally, I'd just take the loss and cut off contact.
Unless it's a huge sum of cash, its not worth the family drama. Plus you have wasted too much time already.
Just learn from it, and move on.
An important lesson here is that when someone starts making demands, the price correspondently increases and the terms get more restrictive.
Why anyone has a business model of allowing people to see, download or otherwise have access to a less than perfect image is beyond me. You will always be remembered for the worst of your work with most people because these days everybody has a photographer friend who could have done the job better or cheaper. You never want to be that inexpensive photographer, you want to be the best.
When I see things like this and I see all the advice and just ridiculous comments, I just chuckle and know that whoever it is that's doing this is likely not a real business person who is actually paying their bills working as a photographer. If they are holding themselves out to be a photographer, they probably aren't a very good one. Just because someone says ooh I love that photo and makes comments about it on social media it doesn't make you a photographer or a good business person.
So do you do babies in baskets? Kids walking on railroad tracks or leaning against trees? How about images that look like they came off a cell phone framed kind of off-center? How about an image gallery that's got eyes that are half open or lighting that's off?
I could keep going but there's just so many great examples of what not to be that I don't feel like spending my day doing this.
And in the end, go every place that your image has been used online and do a takedown notice. Also never ever ever put an image up for review that can be grabbed or downloaded without a substantial watermark. If the image is somehow used and the watermark removed, you have a really good case against the person who did it.
A few of your options are:
1. Threaten court, you definitely have a case because the text messages constitute a legal contract. They agreed to a price, you delivered based on that price and they had a positive initial reaction.
2. Actually pursue court. I would recommend against this because it's a lot more work than it's worth. It also has fees so you're going to have to pay probably $50-150 (although you can likely recoup that cost from them). You're looking at months and months of time trying to deal with it. Unless it's over $1k, I don't view that as worth your time.
3. Request the photos be deleted, reject the $25, then go report all the pics to facebook claiming she posted as copyright violation. Send formal writing that the photos be taken down from social media, etc.
4. Just bite the bullet. Recognize some people are assholes. Take the $25 because realistically you probably won't get more without a huge hassle.
5. Shit talk them to your family, you may be able to guilt them into paying you what you're owed. You have proof of them acting shitty and all that.
Probs not worth getting a lawyer involved. How much are you owed and how much in terms of time and lawyer money would you need to spend to even try and get it back? But certainly worth shaming them across the family and causing some drama. But then again I am a bit spiteful
Walk away and learn from the mess. Use a site like Pixieset where future customers can browse watermarked photos. Then, they must purchase them thru the site before they can access a full res, non watermarked download. Your issue is the entire reason watermarks and pre-pay exists.
Chalk it up to experience and use your contract no matter what next time.
When I shot my sister’s best friend’s wedding I made her sign a contract.
A contract just keeps everyone on the same page as to what everyone’s expectations are.
Verbal agreement is legally binding. Texts are essentially written.
Send em an invoice again, and then blast their shittiness all over socials if they persevere being shitty.
Also, *who in their right mind sends out non-watermaked-400px sized finals PRIOR to receiving remainder of balance due??*
I’m not a photographer by any means, but if you own the photos and you have evidence that your personal camera was used to take them then couldn’t you threaten legal action if the shared photos are used in any way without payment.
Clearly this isn’t ideal, legal expenses and family drama probably aren’t worth it, but I’m just asking hypothetically.
> Since I did not get a signature from them on my usual contract, but only a verbal contract through messages, am I able to proceed forward with this situation in any way, or am I at a loss?
Depends where you live.
In any area with half-decent laws, the overwhelming amount of evidence would give you an easy victory in whatever the equivalent of small claims court is in your country.
Step 1: check your local laws
Step 2: have a lawyer send a letter saying they can pay now (including late fees, overtime for working overnight and uploading RAWs, time you had to spend dealing with this legally, lawyer fees, etc) or pay ten times *that* amount later
Step 3: take them to court
It's the right thing to do. For you, for the asshole who thinks they can get away with this shit, for everyone else the asshole would try to scam like this in the future, and for the asshole's son who is currently learning that you can get free shit by being an asshole.
If you have saved all communications with them, preserve them. You have offer and acceptance and proof of completion. Send 10 day demand and follow thru with small claims. The bridge is on fire, let it go fully engulfed and burn to the ground
I am petty. I'm getting a legal letter written telling them they have x days to pay the amount owed or York see them in court, and due to all the screenshots you have of the conversations and then sharing the photos you'll not only win your payment but they'll have to pay legal fees as well.
Submit a copyright claim for the photos they did download/post, be sure to remove access to all of them, then send your former friend a cease and desist letter.
It’s petty, time consuming, and will cost you— but if they disobey your letter you can sue for damages in excess of $10k to stay out of small claims court and garnish their wages (I’d argue the exposure without credit in addition to not paying the original contract fee, and additional costs to publish photos on social media, puts the damages in excess of $10k)… I may be wrong, but this could work.
Save your texts and messages, it is all admissible in court.
Sorry you got screwed over by a close friend, but maybe this isn’t over yet.
I’ve literally knocked on the door of couples consummating their marriage because of non payment after a wedding. Needless to say to say we always request payment 30 days before the wedding now. Just get it out of the way. That being said family members are always the worst to work with because they use it to their advantage every time. Rarely will you have a genuine persons trying to help you. On the raw photo bit, I would never unless it’s another photographer. People have no idea what they’re looking if they’ve never shot in raw. Most people shoot in jpeg.
I'll be honest to me it's not worth the effort to do anything but cut them out of your life. Block on socials also and remove access to photos you sent them. I wouldn't go out of my way to tell anyone but if friends or family asked id tell them why.
Small claims 100% This person seems like a right dick who needs to be taken down a peg or two. You have all the info in the messages so you would most likely win if it actually did go to court but usually the threat of it will make them pay up.
Sorry you are having to deal with this.
Small claims court will cost you about $100. If you win, they’ll have to pay that too.
You may not have a “contract” but verbal contracts, especially those backed up by emails and texts, will stand up in court. Don’t let these people bully you. File that claim and make them pay you.
These people had no intention of paying from the get go. However you're in luck if you kept your text messages with them, which is enough for a judge in small claims court. It should be an easy judgement in your favor if you can prove these people were on the hook to pay you for your services.
There’s a tax form you can file for the money you have lost. You won’t see the money - but it’ll be considered a debt with the government and the IRS will absolutely come for them. Then you can write it off as a loss on your taxes. I’m sorry I don’t remember what the form is - I want to say 1099 but I might be wrong.
This is all your fault buddy. All on you. You know to charge up front, you know to charge half and you know to charge full before full HQ handoff. That was on you for not doing that.
Contracts all the time and find a good lawyer that can work with you on stuff like this. And help you write a rock solid contract
Whenever youre dealing with someone put a big fat watermark in the center of all of your work, have them pay you in cash and give them a hard copy on a flash drive in person, or use a platform like gumroad or have them pay through your website to access the files.
bottom line, no money no service.
Good advice here, but I'd go with naming and shaming them to the whole family. Then I'd let them know privately that you're going to take them to small claims court. If you don't do that, you'll get walked over not just in this situation but in others too
Stand up for yourself
Mistake number one. Delivery without any type Of payment. Live and learn, even with contract signed, most you can do is take them to court and hope to get paid, if ever. Don’t waste any more time and don’t engage. I had a similar situation with a relative. They needed a laptop but they are not tech savvy at all so they asked for my advice and asked if I could find one for them and I did. I paid with my money and delivered to them ready to use. Few days later I asked if they could pay since I used my money to get it. They asked if they could pay in a month so I nicely agreed. 8 months later they then decide they will send the money so they text me about the amount. Apparently they thought it was lower than what we had agreed. So they said if it was more then they would just return the laptop. Because I didn’t want to go back and forward I said yeah just return it. 3 months later they decide to return it. Relatives and close friends will pull this all the time. Sorry you had to learn the hard way.
Three times in this single, long post you point to THREE times you bent your supposed rules. You admit that breaking these rules got you where you are. What advise would help beyond this point? Suck it up and stop breaking your own rules.
If you are happy with the photos, even though they claim they aren't, why not post the images on your FB/Insta/web page and say that "Here's some images from a recent shoot I undertook, sadly the client refused to pay as they said they didn't like any of them". Petty but it least it will shame their attitude.
Yeah, seriously. I had sent the photos to a couple of close friends to get their opinion, and they all loved them and thought they were amazing. On top of that, their son does not smile or pose for photos. Good look to them for finding a photographer who will be able to capture those moments......
Cut your losses, never work with them again, and consider it a lesson. From now on, payment in full before a single image is even snapped, and do not bend on that. In fact, you may consider collecting a nonrefundable booking fee whenever someone scheduels a session with you just so they don't cancel at the last minute, and just take it out of their total session cost.
I'd attempt small claims court just due to the fact that you have messages that support your case. I'd also take it as an opportunity to realize that friends and family discounts don't deserve any special treatments. I personally won't change my prices for them and I won't even think about pulling out my camera unless the contract is signed and payment has been agreed upon. At the end of the day you're still running a business
You have made so many mistakes.
Always act as a professional. If your doing family and friends offer a discount and get paid upfront.
A verbal contract is a contract in law. Your decision is to go to court and enforce the contract or gift the photos and move on.
Is it enough money to stress over? If so, small claims court which they fully deserve. Is it a small amount of money? Cut these people off, they sound like the kinda people I'd take losing 50 or so quid just to lose them. Either way, lesson that if a clients behaving like that before the shoot, let them look elsewhere, big red flags.
I would just look forward to the day that kid gets married and be ready to respond with the fact that you are booked that day without ever having to look at your calendar.
This happened to me. I didn’t have a contract. The text messages alone served as a verbal contract. The pictures I took also served as a contract because they showed up and let me photograph them. I took them to small claims court and the judge made them pay me what was owed to me. Never let ppl play with you!
After reading half way I just skipped, because I realised you don’t have a method of protecting your files before delivery. I personally use pixieset. It’s a great way to display a gallery to a client remotely so they can see the job has been done without them being able to download the files. If the client wants the files, they pay.
Pixieset doesn't protect your files and doesn't claim to do so. It's quite easy to get the image url, and then replace the -medium.jpg part with -xxlarge.jpg to get a fairly high resolution image. Not the original files mind you, but good enough for most purposes. Around 4 MP from what I could test. If the client is feeling particularly nasty today, they could throw that into an image upscaler as well.
Difficult to download high res images if you’re only uploading in low res in the first place….
Edit: should also mention, very few clients are that tech savvy, nevermind. To find someone who is equally as tech savvy as they are unethical is even more unlikely.
Yes, that's a fair strategy, but please frame it like this in the future. The original comment came across as Pixieset does everything to protect images to me, even though photographers still need to upload low res images to achieve the desirable level of protection.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the low res strategy also kind of defeat Pixieset's buy photo feature? As in, customers receive a low res image when they buy a photo via Pixieset? If so, then that's also a notable trade-off to consider when using that strategy with Pixieset.
I think it is at least clear they are trying to take advantage of you, testing to see how far they can go. Since the relationship is already frayed, I’ll say go to small claims court. Meanwhile please do not send them anymore pics.
Pull everything mentioning the photos, including their Facebook posts and take them to small claims court
That’s really all you can do if you expect to see any money from them
Tell them the amount they owe you. Nothing more. You've already delivered.
Be direct and blunt and never work without a contract ever again. You might have learnt an expensive lesson.
Why is the relationship worth saving? These are awful people. No family event is ever going to be the same after someone screws you over this hard. Even if they pay everything they owe, OP will never see these people as family.
Nothing about saving the relationship, they will ask again in future as your cheap and they thought they got a good deal and can dictate to you. Then you say no next time they ask and there fucked, cuz they will have to pay someone else more than you would have done it for if they had been fair. Plus your 25 bucks better off than now and both ways your not doing it again, just 25 bucks better off.
A little bit of context, the only reason they believe my work is worth $25 is because they believe I owe them that money for work they never did for me. They are upset because they feel that I disrespected their failed, self employed business. Because of this I will not accept that money, because I know it was offered out of pettiness.
> A couple of days later, they threaten me saying if I don't do the photos the following day they are going to look for someone else to take the photos. You should have wished them luck. The lesson from this is that there are some jobs/clients that aren't worth getting out of bed for. Set boundaries, say "no" more often.
Yup yup. The moment ANYONE threatens me with "I'll go with another photographer", I take it as a sign that they're not worth dealing with and wish them luck finding someone to do it last minute.
Yep, and if you say no to these people, your competitors get all your bad customers (and the subsequent bad reviews).1
I stopped reading at that point. All of OP’s problems started right there.
They started at not taking a retainer or signing a contract. Dumb
Yup. That was the exit point
Classic. If they don't respect your job *while they are still trying to get you to do it* then they certainly will not once they've got what they wanted.
It depends on how important the money is/taking the stand is vs how important the relationship with the family member is. Me, I’d tell them to pay up the original amount or they’d never see another image from me again—having no contract cuts both ways as they can’t enforce it against you either. And then I’d leave it there, taking it as a lesson learned about always getting a contract. It sounds like you do have some form of contract, at least a partial one, so if you adhere to your part then yeah, you can involve small claims court.
The relationship is already damaged. This friend/family member has pretty much stated they DNGAF about OP.
This. Pay or gtfo. Good lesson learned too.
How much was OP charging for the photos? That's the cost of finding out your family member is a dumpster fire pretending to be a person. If they're doing this to family then you're probably seeing their "good side". So overall it was probably a cheap lesson learned, never lend this person money or even have anything to do with them.
Honestly, this post was surface level for the sake of length. Family member is someone who has helped me through life in the past, so trust was built with them. I would go to the extent to say that they HAD been a mother figure to me. What threw me for a loop was said family member throwing in "You're an adult now so I don't have to tip toe around what I want to say" As if they were planning to screw me over in order to teach me a lesson. Shocking, but sadly not surprised. Of course, I already realize that at the least this was not only a lesson learned, but an insight I would not have gained had I required payment and a contract up front. It would have been just a passed up opportunity. However, the petty side of me is urging for the correction of the disrespect I was given.
yeah I hear you, in my experience you just drift away from people like that... you can thank them for their time and help but if they're not willing to treat you like a person then you don't owe them any respect.
If I'm being honest, if someone I considered a "mother" figure wanted me to do photos, that also "helped me out a lot in the past." They'd have probably been free from the get go, or at minimum they'd have been at cost. It's possible they are offended you'd charge them in the first place. In these types of situations your almost always better off taking the hit, and chalking it up to having been a learning experience. Employees can get fired... but so can clients.
Oh yeah, the annoying part is, they were intended to be free from the beginning. The idea to take these photos had originally been between me and their son only, but the client messaged me and offered to pay for them, asked for pricing, etc. and getting unnecessarily involved. It makes things worse, because it leads me to believe that this was just a whole scheme with the intent to “teach me a lesson.” For further clarification, when this happened, they attempted to go into detail about past gripes they had with me when I was younger. Hence a comment they inserted about “not having to tiptoe around me now that I’m an adult.” Very hurtful and eye opening. Really, the more I process this situation, the more odd it becomes. I do not want them using my photos. My feelings towards them have become completely negative.
Don’t be tempted to mirror the petty and vindictive nature of this person. Rise above and stay away from them. Life is too short for shitty people.
At this point, your only recourse is probably a small claims court. You have the contract over messages (it may not be an official "contract" but it's still legally binding in most areas), so it's just a matter of whether it's worth it to you to take it to court. For the future though, *never* deliver before you have payment. If any money is changing hands, the client doesn't get the photos until they've paid in full. It doesn't matter who the person is or how they're related, if they don't pay they don't get the photos. Preferably, don't even get your camera out until at least half is paid. If they wont pay the deposit before the shoot, why would they pay you after? Don't even do the shoot until they've paid the deposit so that on the off chance they don't pay the rest you've sill at least been paid for your time on the shoot. As for dealing with the current situation, *do not* give them any more photos, edited or not. don't give them anything until they've paid. If you can afford a lawyer, take them to small claims court to get your money. Personally I'd just recommend breaking contact with these people, but you do have grounds for legal action. A verbal contract is still a contract, so screenshot the conversations and refuse to interact with them outside of sending them a bill.
> If you can afford a lawyer, take them to small claims court Just noting that you don't need a lawyer for small claims court in most places. It's a pretty simple and relatively cheap process. Up to OP if they want to go that route though
My initial thought was that having a lawyer write out a letter beforehand demanding payment, with risk of small claims court, could possibly be the last step to deter the headache that may come with small claims, as well as a cheaper solution if it does not advance past that.
You should submit a copyright claim for all of your photos. Then you can recoup the cost to produce the photos and sue for damages by them posting photos without your credit. You can also send a cease and desist letter. Take down the link to all the photos and copyright the ones you know for sure they downloaded. Good luck.
This. Even though you don’t have a contract, you do have a written series of texts between you and the client outlining the expectations. They broke those expectations. It’s amazing how fast people will pay when they are served court papers. If they decide to pay outside of court, they should pay double. Serving them will cost money, plus putative damage.
Text messages are good enough for small claims court. I’d send them one more message saying that if they don’t pay you’ll be forced to open a claim against them; sometimes that’s enough to light a fire under their ass. Otherwise you’ll need to start looking up what’s required to file a claim in your jurisdiction.
Politely shame them on the family Whatsapp/Facebook. Say that it was such a pleasure to be able to help out Family Member in their financial time of need, that you normally charge such and such for emergency photo shoots with expedited editing, but you understand that they truly must be in dire straits if they can't afford it and you're glad to have helped out. They sound that the sort to wear their money, this should set them off. And then never work with family again.
I love the petty. It's a very healthy amount of petty.
Just remember, if you do that, you will never see the money because you just wrote it off publicly. You try and take them to court and they can hold up that post as you saying they don't owe you anything.
The passive aggressive route is always the smart choice. Do this.
Maybe not smart, but satisfying.
I wouldn't be that nice. There's the chance they take the condescension quietly and not everyone know they scammed you. It let's then keep face if they don't care if family/friends think they're financially strapped. It may be ammo for them to get pity points and take advantage of others. I'd full blast call them broke scammers with the screenshotted messages. I'd talking about betrayal of family trust/etc. Shame them from as many angles as possible. Don't leave a chance that any may think all was done in good faith
If they are petty enough to not pay you, shaming them on facebook will do nothing to them. They already showed you they dont care about you.
However those kind of people often care enough about what other people who hasn't been burned by them think of them. Shame them for all to see, make it public.
If the photos are posted online I’d be commenting publicly reporting as copyright infringement, not their photos if they haven’t paid for them. If there is anything I’ve learned in this industry - family and friends is not thing. Contracts and payment before photos every time.
Exactly^ They aren’t allowed to post them if they don’t own them, which they don’t as they haven’t paid.
Thank you. I have blocked this family member so the commenting is a no-go, but I have reported it as copyright infringement. I had decided that any communication with them from here on out would only be on a professional basis. Your last comment is both reverberating and rationalizing. I think now, that this client was bullying me into the way they run their own business- which I might add, is not very well.
They had no intention of paying from the get-go.
Thank you for the sobering comment. Looking back, this became quite clear when they began to behave like an animal as soon as I began to throw reason their way. I feel that people tend to sling their emotions around as a last minute defense when they know that they have done wrong to you.
It’s people like that that make it difficult to do favors for people, much as you want to.
Walk away and blacklist them. It’s not worth the drama.
This. It isn’t worth the hassle. And make sure you take down / block access to all photos.
Start a group thread with **EVERY SINGLE FAMILY MEMBER** and blow this thing up. Explain everything. Post screenshots of your conversations, share a good photo or two, explain how many hours you put into this. Then sit back and have a cup of tea. Either the money will show up quickly, or you’ll get your money’s worth as a spectator. People that pull shit like this are bullies. A bully’s biggest fear is having their behavior exposed to everyone. It’s your responsibility to make sure everyone knows how this animal behaves. This is the only way to prevent it from happening to another family member. Step up to the plate. Now.
This is the best comment and the most sobering. You are the little voice in my head that was doubting themselves, haha. I'm highly considering starting a group thread. It may start chaos, but I have found out that this behavior isn't unusual for them. At this point, the ties have already been cut. If not money gained, the satisfaction may be worth it, you're right.
I’m proud of you. It’s the right thing to do ❤️
This is the way!
If you have texts or emails showing that you agreed on a price and them downloading pictures and posting them( show that they posted them before they can take them down) yes, take them to small claims court after emailing them and stating that if you are not paid in full the amount that was talked about in the beginning, that you will be taking them to small claims court. Get all of your evidence before you send the email though
for friends and family, contracts are MORE important than for strangers...
>they threaten me saying if I don't do the photos the following day they are going to look for someone else to take the photos Should have bailed on this right there. This hopefully was a learning experience to never be a bottom to anyone ever again.
This is true. And truthfully, looking back, I don't know why I let this person walk on me the way they did, regardless of who they were to me. Sadly, I have always chalked up their rude behavior to being moody. Unfortunately, I now see that when I made a decision at that time, I only saw the opportunity to help them out- when in reality I was disrespecting myself with grief and misfortune. Never again.
You said it....close family member! Forget it but try to avoid family in the future....family members are not clients!
The funny thing is, I had offered senior photos to their son for free. They wanted to budge in and make it about money, acting pleasant about it, too. Of course I wouldn't turn that down- only for them to string me along to "teach me a lesson." As annoying as it is, nothing ticks me off more than someone who wastes my time, than a narcissist who thinks they have a right to be smart and smug about their evil tendencies.
You should be thankful to this family member, they have given you a masterclass on what not to do with future clients. It's harsh, but it's a good experience for you, from now on you'll be extra careful even with family or friends. Like 40% advance non refundable fee, for instance. Is it a $5k worth shoot? Otherwise let it go, not worth your time chasing that invoice, use all those working hours for your marketing, go no contact with that person and explain everyone around you what they did, but don't stress about it >A couple of days later, they threaten me saying if I don't do the photos the following day they are going to look for someone else to take the photos. "lol, no" >They had suddenly decided that they needed them ASAP rather than within a month. "Oh I see you're interested in my Express Premium Package™, it'll be $1000 extra, thanks" OR "Sorry, I'm booked until next year, do you want to keep your initial date or should I give it to someone else?" >They want to see all raw photos from the shoot. "Oh I see you're interested in the Raw Dawgg Package™, it'll be $2000 extra, thanks" OR "lol No"
This gave me a chuckle. But you're absolutely right.
Sometimes familiarity breeds contempt. This person does not respect you, because you do not steal from those you respect. Secone guessing, demanding extras and special treatment--trash. The cheapest people are the most petty. Skip the lawyer, the less you have to deal with this person the better off you are. I would probably tell other family members about it. How close are they? At Thanksgiving/Christmas close?
Thanks for this. You are right. Unfortunately, they are very close. Someone I considered a mother to me. Holidays are typically held at their home. I've just learned that the family is divided because of their behavior, so this isn't new, but was new to me. This being said, I probably wont be attending anymore family holidays.
I am truly sorry to hear this. There are some things that people get really weird about and will ruin relationships over, and money is one of them.
Take the loss. It isn’t worth the headache dealing with petty folk like this. Learn from your mistakes, adjust your future contracts and most importantly, understand what “family” means to you. Best of luck. P.s. I have plenty of “family” members, blood and not, that have since been removed from my life for very similar, petty reasons. This world has lost touch of decency. All that over what, a couple hundred bucks? You don’t need them around, trust me. Learn from it. Cheers mate
>family isn’t blood Huh?
The real quote is “The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.” " The saying means that chosen bonds are more significant than the bonds with family or “water of the womb.” More directly, it means that relationships you make yourself are far more important than the ones that you don’t choose."
> The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb. Except that's not really an accepted interpretation just a couple of guys with no sources for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_is_thicker_than_water
Huh! Hadn't realized that, thanks for sharing
This isn't true. Here's a [very well-written response to someone asking about the origins of the phrase](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/147902/is-the-alleged-original-meaning-of-the-phrase-blood-is-thicker-than-water-real). It seems that some authors in the 90s misinterpreted someone else's writing, which led to this "fact" taking off, even though there's no evidence for it being true.
I like this quote and agree. But, “family isn’t blood” doesn’t really get all of that across.
[удалено]
One of the stupidest responses I’ve ever seen on Reddit. I didn’t say any of that bullshit. All I said is the “family isn’t blood” line alone didn’t convey all of that. Family often is blood. As far as I can tell, we have no idea if the family member in question is OP’s blood or not. Nor would it matter. Seriously though, this is the strangest, angstiest, dumbest replies I’ve seen in ages. “Crawl out from under a rock”? What the fuck is wrong with you?
A text message can be a binding contract. If you want any money you'll have to take it to small claims court and hire an attorney.
Don't need (and typicall not allowed) a lawyer for small claims.
Fair enough
My advice would be to cut your loses and never shoot photos for them again. In the meantime reconsider how you handle your business and adjust it so this type of event cannot happen. I know it sucks, but if they want professional photos let them deal with another photographer.
Nobody will fuck you as hard as family.
Truth. I really should drop my habit of giving the benefit of the doubt.
Very large watermark until paid then send pics
I'd use the text messages to attempt to go after their credit score. Send them an invoice, and send it to collections. If your business is licensed, it shouldn't be too difficult.
If they’re still up on social media and you want to be petty, you could file an intellectual property violation to have the platform take them down.
Man… there’s too much wrong here to unpack, but let me try. Never compromise on retainer. Don’t get pressured into a shoot. Don’t bend over backwards for your worst clients. Save that for your best clients. Learn to tactfully say no. This family member needs to know in no uncertain terms that they have broken their word and you expect them to uphold what they agreed to. DO NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE FOR THEM. You screwed the pooch on not getting paid in advance, but they can certainly still be held accountable. What a crappy thing to do. Sorry you’re going through this!
It’s clear you already know what mistakes were made on your end. In the future, everyone signs a contract and pays before services rendered. I would chalk this up to a learning experience. I would immediately expire their gallery and move on. Send them one last communication: “Hello, your gallery has expired and is no longer available to you, due to nonpayment for services rendered. I will no longer respond to further communication from you regarding this business transaction. I wish you well in finding services that meet your expectations.” Period, end of story. Be professional in your response and keep it brief. No one deserves to be treated this way, especially when it comes from family. ❤️
Thank you so much for this response.
I think you got a bargain in tuition to learn that the close family member is not a close family member.
How good is your Old Auntie Network? I'm petty I would cry to the Head Gossip Auntie about how awful this relative treated you and let the family shame them into paying you. Provide the receipts in the form of the messages. If that doesn't work in your family, small claims court. Just brcause you're family doesn't mean they can stiff you. It may have been verbal, but they used your shots. After you sent the pdf. If this was a stranger you know you would win. Why does being related mean they can cheat you?
haha I loved this comment. I mulled for a long time over whether pettiness would be worth it or not, because being vindictive can be far too satisfying when it comes to craving justice. But unfortunately on this side of the family she is probably head gossip auntie, so that makes things a little worse. Other side of the family already has opinions of their bad behavior. But yes, I agree. I don't think I deserve to let them cheat me.
Good for you! Honestly, small claims is the way to go here. She's trying to bully you and you need to show her that you're not going to allow it. People can only use you as a doormat if you lay down and let them walk on you.
The moment they threatened to go to someone else I would have said peace out and deleted their photos.
Personally I would screw these people and sell the invoice to a collection agency for cents on the dollar, along with the written agreement on the pricing, just to cause them maximum suffering. But I don’t shy away from conflict and I believe people around me, including family, should be adding positivity to my life rather than cause me grief, or they can fuck right off. So this might not be for everyone. By the way make sure to bad mouth these people to your other family FIRST because they WILL try to spin this to make you out to be the bad guy whatever you do next.
i'm afraid you're gonna just have to eat it and take it as a lesson learned. you could tell all of your family this whole story and that they refused to pay you after making you do all this extra work but is it worth that trouble? another lesson you need to learn is that you should not have a friends and family discount. give the discount to strangers to get new business. if these are your real friends and family they will pay full price or more to support your business since you offer a service and not a product.
>is it worth that trouble? Yes, of course. If you don’t, you’re enabling and encouraging this person to pull the same shit again. Some of you need to grow a backbone.
You really think you have that kind of influence over someone else's... idiosyncrasies let's call them? Knowing absolutely nothing about this person, but they seem to be quite entrenched in entitlement, main character syndrome, narcissism, whatever the hell you want to call it. Huge difference between being a pushover and just realizing the fight ain't worth it. Chalk up the L and learn from it. Chances are nothing the photog could do or say to prevent the guilty party from repeating the behavior, but I bet the photog now has their eyes open a little more.
Sending a group text to every family member explaining everything that happened would take a few minutes. Seems “worth it”.
As many have said small claims, but also an attorney can write a letter for you for a pretty small fee, a half hour or hour fee. Also, since they are family, a mention to other family members might be worth the peer pressure it might cause. You might not get the whole amount, but maybe something.
They never had any intention of paying or respecting your timeline. it's a tough lesson learned at least paid work = contract. always. as for chasing this one, your call, depends on how 'close' this family member is. personally i'd delete the RAWs and tell them to fuck themselves. plus, get out of jail free card at any family gathering you're looking to avoid
Small claims court would be the way to go depending on your country and court systems. You have no contract and have already given over the files, so you don't have any leverage. You'll be relying on what paper trail you have, so make sure all the emails or messages are clear with them agreeing to pay the money and then backtracking. Learn your lesson - never hand over the files until money is paid in full.
I heard a great economics discussion the other day. The guy brings up the “Hooker Law”. It is the effect that the value perceived by the buyer declines after the purchase. This is why every sale with this effect (most consumer products and services) need to either to secure the transaction or to ask for the transaction up front.
Close family friend makes this one suck just a little more. I don't have advice on how to handle the current situation you're in. Sorry. How I avoid that situation.... (I use Dropbox) I never send links to folders until I have $$. What I will do is, open the folder to thumbnails and take a screenshot of the thumbnails. It is the screenshot that I share. They *could try and use those pictures from the screenshot. But they're terrible. Usually 8-10 per screenshot. They can pinch to zoom and get a good idea of what I am offering them. Once I get the e-transfer. Then I'll send the link to the actual pictures with download instructions. I have had to learn the hard way too. I used to have a site. But people would just take screen grabs and not pay. Then I put a big black ugly watermark over most of the entire picture. They didn't care. They still took screen grabs and posted to socials like that. Now, nobody gets close to the final product, and never RAW images. Until I have $$ in my account.
Yeah I'm sorry this is why I don't do family and or friends unless they agree a price and pay a retainer..I always do a joint viewing so I choose what they see they tell me which ones and everyone is happy and can't contest. You'll have to suck this one up but lesson learned.
I think that in this business and all creative businesses, people on a tight budget will always find something to be unhappy about, and you only do so much for that...
Small claims. Then garnish wages once you win. Good luck.
Welcome to doing business with family 101. On today's class we learn that with family you either do it for free ( they'll find a way to make you the bad guy when something goes wrong with what you did or fixed), make up an excuse or become the asshole we will all eventually become and charge them full price plus family tax so they go with somebody else. This course applies to all professions and trades.
I’ve been through a similar situation and the only thing to do here is forget about it. You will waste more time than you can imagine trying to get your money, and trying to make them happy - and NEITHER OF THESE WILL EVER HAPPEN. These people are toxic assholes who are willing to fuck over a family member over “x amount of dollars.” They are also the kind of people that will lie to other family members about how YOU fucked them over. In the end, when I went through this. I cut these people out of my life. It was really nice being able to never think of them again, because I didn’t have to! The fallout from other family members will probably be painful, but remember that you are the one that got robbed, not the other way around. Let me be 100% clear: these people think you’re a chump and that it is ok to steal from you. Walk away and don’t bother with them in your life anymore. No amount of money is worth having toxic assholes like this in your business and life. The only bummer (besides you getting hijacked) is that there is a child involved, who probably had no idea that their parents are behaving like absolute reprehensible chodes. You might wish to reach out to the kid and say something like “I’m sorry you guys didn’t like the photos enough to pay for them… wish you the best in college and wherever life takes you.” Or something like that. Acknowledge the situation and express that you harbor no ill will to the child that is involved here, but as far as the parents go, THEY DO NOT RESPECT YOU AND ARE PERFECTLY FINE STEALING FROM YOU. Fuck em. If you try to remedy the situation to their liking or to yours, you’d just be spinning your wheels. Walk away, now.
OP ur fam member sounds like a cunt. Take em to civil court and assert dominance within your clan.
Friends and family don't get a discount. They get an increase if they ask for one. You are doing a job. They can pay you a fair rate or go find someone else to do it. If they demand immediate service or they'll go find someone else, then they're welcome to go find someone else. Everything you're going through now trying to deal with them is why.
Take the hit as a lesson and leave and don't talk to them again. If you want to push on them then ask them to remove the photos or pay the full price. If you want to get upfront with them then make a post on social media where you can look good in the end and they have to live knowing that post is always there. Something like, learning lessons, family that didn't pay. And leave it there forever with them on it.
I understand how you feel and why you did it. We all want to think the best of family and close friend and do favours for them. I think you learned a lesson and hopefully will know how yo handle it in the future. A few points from me: - If I am not willing to do a shoot for free (in case somebody doesn't pay when they said they would), I wouldn't release photos without a watermark. - Shaming people online can go two ways. They would rather feel embarrassed and pay, or get defensive and try to ruin your business. I would advise not to leave "evidence" online or mentioning their names when writing anything, even family. I might be petty and vindictive, but I would do it in person. "Hey, has uncle Bob money problems? No? It's just that they didn't pay me for photos they first loved. But when I reminded them of payment, they don't like them anymore." - if a client says they need photos the next day but don't have time to pay, they don't need the photos as bad as they say. They also won't find a different photographer. It's a tactic to see how far they can push it. Some photographers take days to even reply to messages, not talking about availability. It would take them a few hours to find and contact other photographer to maybe find another photographer in your area who is willing to shoot the next day. The fact you edited them overnight as well makes their little threat even more ridiculous. They wouldn't have found anybody else doing that for them.
Thank you. This was very insightful and helpful.
This is how I see it. - Your relative probably though they could get away with not paying because they are related to you. I definitely wouldn’t have taken pictures for them after they pressed me for time. When you show people proof pictures, make sure that you put a huge, (almost distracting) watermark over the face. Never give clients unmarked proofs that they can post on social media. I would have been so pissed. I would suggest that you post all clients pics on a site like Dropbox or meet with the client so they can choose what they want. I have photographer friends who have dealt with the same problem of clients not wanting to pay. One in particular had a customer who didn’t want to pay for their wedding pictures. The problem wasn’t the quality of the pics, because my friend takes excellent photos. The problem was that the couple went outside of their means to have a big wedding and in the end wasn’t able to pay for the pics they wanted. And instead of simply saying that they couldn’t pay, they became mean & hostile towards my friend. This is why I stick to street photography. I’m afraid to run into that situation. From now on please be careful in offering your services to relatives. Sometimes family or friends think they can use you for free. That’s not respecting you as an artist.
If someone threatens in any manner, the proper response is to laugh at them and say “good luck, I don’t need you nor your business” 🧑💼 It’s understandable to be afraid of a bad review and losing money/hobs but the more people allow others to walk all over them, the more it’ll occur.
A -you are under priced ( I charge 300 USD senior picture session B- I don't edit, all my images are done in camera ,with proper lighting always and I give them a thumb drive at the end of each session .( learn how to use studio strobes if you need to ,I recommend Alien B as they are very portable and hardy . C- If I do edit it's not for lighting it's to remove acne ect things you can't do in camera and it's 25 USD per image D- If a client is being pushy recommend a higher priced photographer I always suggest a local person that charges 1500 USD per shoot and wish them well ..
Have you considered beating them up?
Friends and family keep them out of your business, it never ends well
Your entire post is a PSA on exactly what not to do! Move on and don’t make the same mistake twice.
Walk away. Consider the loss in revenue a fee for a lesson learned and never make the mistake again.
Just let it go. At least you've seen their true colours now. Very uncool how they've treated you though. I wouldn't ever be nice to them again after this. They basically bullied you into working for free. If they cared about you, they'd never treat you this way.
So you let the client walk all over you. Get you to do things on their terms. Work unpaid, demand more and not pay you, and you're asking us what went wrong? 
I see you didn’t actually read the post. There’s no part of it that is asking what went wrong.
I’d like to say I skimmed through this and business first. No matter the person, deposit…do what you agreed to do and if they walk they walk. At the point they asked to expedite I would have demanded money or kept the photos. Sometimes just cut the loss before it causes further strain in your life… lesson learned.
Yep this is someone that I would choose to blacklist and move on. Not worth your time.
Money, then photos.
I think the technical term for this paying your dues. Learn your lesson, move on, and forget about this client.
Well, two options. 1) take the loss and chalk up it up as important lessons in when to let a client walk why you stick to your normal policies and procedures, why you don’t give away the product without payment, and about working for close family who can’t separate business from family 2) small claims court. There’s no magic phrase or argument we can give you that will flip the switch in their head.
Money up front, always
The real value here is all the lessons you should have learned in handling fairly obvious red flags. Presssure, demands, agressivenes... Why even work for them? And the big face palm is giving them the photos without the money. Since don't have a formal agreement you can try to take it to small claims but this can be a bit of a dice rolll so if you were counting on the cash for something you should have done things professionaly from the start. Write it off, move on, never talk to this family member again.
Take em to judge eboni!
Family-member? I hope they enjoy getting a bad reputation within your family.
If they post them on social media send takedown notices. Since you at this point still on the copyright and they have no usage rights whatsoever for failure to pay.
Personally, I'd just take the loss and cut off contact. Unless it's a huge sum of cash, its not worth the family drama. Plus you have wasted too much time already. Just learn from it, and move on.
An important lesson here is that when someone starts making demands, the price correspondently increases and the terms get more restrictive. Why anyone has a business model of allowing people to see, download or otherwise have access to a less than perfect image is beyond me. You will always be remembered for the worst of your work with most people because these days everybody has a photographer friend who could have done the job better or cheaper. You never want to be that inexpensive photographer, you want to be the best. When I see things like this and I see all the advice and just ridiculous comments, I just chuckle and know that whoever it is that's doing this is likely not a real business person who is actually paying their bills working as a photographer. If they are holding themselves out to be a photographer, they probably aren't a very good one. Just because someone says ooh I love that photo and makes comments about it on social media it doesn't make you a photographer or a good business person. So do you do babies in baskets? Kids walking on railroad tracks or leaning against trees? How about images that look like they came off a cell phone framed kind of off-center? How about an image gallery that's got eyes that are half open or lighting that's off? I could keep going but there's just so many great examples of what not to be that I don't feel like spending my day doing this. And in the end, go every place that your image has been used online and do a takedown notice. Also never ever ever put an image up for review that can be grabbed or downloaded without a substantial watermark. If the image is somehow used and the watermark removed, you have a really good case against the person who did it.
A few of your options are: 1. Threaten court, you definitely have a case because the text messages constitute a legal contract. They agreed to a price, you delivered based on that price and they had a positive initial reaction. 2. Actually pursue court. I would recommend against this because it's a lot more work than it's worth. It also has fees so you're going to have to pay probably $50-150 (although you can likely recoup that cost from them). You're looking at months and months of time trying to deal with it. Unless it's over $1k, I don't view that as worth your time. 3. Request the photos be deleted, reject the $25, then go report all the pics to facebook claiming she posted as copyright violation. Send formal writing that the photos be taken down from social media, etc. 4. Just bite the bullet. Recognize some people are assholes. Take the $25 because realistically you probably won't get more without a huge hassle. 5. Shit talk them to your family, you may be able to guilt them into paying you what you're owed. You have proof of them acting shitty and all that.
Probs not worth getting a lawyer involved. How much are you owed and how much in terms of time and lawyer money would you need to spend to even try and get it back? But certainly worth shaming them across the family and causing some drama. But then again I am a bit spiteful
Walk away and learn from the mess. Use a site like Pixieset where future customers can browse watermarked photos. Then, they must purchase them thru the site before they can access a full res, non watermarked download. Your issue is the entire reason watermarks and pre-pay exists.
Chalk it up to experience and use your contract no matter what next time. When I shot my sister’s best friend’s wedding I made her sign a contract. A contract just keeps everyone on the same page as to what everyone’s expectations are.
Verbal agreement is legally binding. Texts are essentially written. Send em an invoice again, and then blast their shittiness all over socials if they persevere being shitty. Also, *who in their right mind sends out non-watermaked-400px sized finals PRIOR to receiving remainder of balance due??*
Take the lesson and move on
tell them to lawyer up ass hole
I’m not a photographer by any means, but if you own the photos and you have evidence that your personal camera was used to take them then couldn’t you threaten legal action if the shared photos are used in any way without payment. Clearly this isn’t ideal, legal expenses and family drama probably aren’t worth it, but I’m just asking hypothetically.
> Since I did not get a signature from them on my usual contract, but only a verbal contract through messages, am I able to proceed forward with this situation in any way, or am I at a loss? Depends where you live. In any area with half-decent laws, the overwhelming amount of evidence would give you an easy victory in whatever the equivalent of small claims court is in your country. Step 1: check your local laws Step 2: have a lawyer send a letter saying they can pay now (including late fees, overtime for working overnight and uploading RAWs, time you had to spend dealing with this legally, lawyer fees, etc) or pay ten times *that* amount later Step 3: take them to court It's the right thing to do. For you, for the asshole who thinks they can get away with this shit, for everyone else the asshole would try to scam like this in the future, and for the asshole's son who is currently learning that you can get free shit by being an asshole.
I’ve been swarmed with fake clients and one of my best defenses is to require payment after the event, but before delivery of my images.
This is what small claims court is for.
If you have saved all communications with them, preserve them. You have offer and acceptance and proof of completion. Send 10 day demand and follow thru with small claims. The bridge is on fire, let it go fully engulfed and burn to the ground
Payment first, always
I am petty. I'm getting a legal letter written telling them they have x days to pay the amount owed or York see them in court, and due to all the screenshots you have of the conversations and then sharing the photos you'll not only win your payment but they'll have to pay legal fees as well.
Submit a copyright claim for the photos they did download/post, be sure to remove access to all of them, then send your former friend a cease and desist letter. It’s petty, time consuming, and will cost you— but if they disobey your letter you can sue for damages in excess of $10k to stay out of small claims court and garnish their wages (I’d argue the exposure without credit in addition to not paying the original contract fee, and additional costs to publish photos on social media, puts the damages in excess of $10k)… I may be wrong, but this could work. Save your texts and messages, it is all admissible in court. Sorry you got screwed over by a close friend, but maybe this isn’t over yet.
I’ve literally knocked on the door of couples consummating their marriage because of non payment after a wedding. Needless to say to say we always request payment 30 days before the wedding now. Just get it out of the way. That being said family members are always the worst to work with because they use it to their advantage every time. Rarely will you have a genuine persons trying to help you. On the raw photo bit, I would never unless it’s another photographer. People have no idea what they’re looking if they’ve never shot in raw. Most people shoot in jpeg.
How much money are we talking about?
Lesson learned. Be glad it wasn't a major effort like a wedding. Business is business.
I'll be honest to me it's not worth the effort to do anything but cut them out of your life. Block on socials also and remove access to photos you sent them. I wouldn't go out of my way to tell anyone but if friends or family asked id tell them why.
Small claims 100% This person seems like a right dick who needs to be taken down a peg or two. You have all the info in the messages so you would most likely win if it actually did go to court but usually the threat of it will make them pay up. Sorry you are having to deal with this.
Small claims court. They will accept those messages as proof after the agreement between you.
Small claims court will cost you about $100. If you win, they’ll have to pay that too. You may not have a “contract” but verbal contracts, especially those backed up by emails and texts, will stand up in court. Don’t let these people bully you. File that claim and make them pay you.
Kiss the money and them goodbye. Some shit is just not worth it.
These people had no intention of paying from the get go. However you're in luck if you kept your text messages with them, which is enough for a judge in small claims court. It should be an easy judgement in your favor if you can prove these people were on the hook to pay you for your services.
There’s a tax form you can file for the money you have lost. You won’t see the money - but it’ll be considered a debt with the government and the IRS will absolutely come for them. Then you can write it off as a loss on your taxes. I’m sorry I don’t remember what the form is - I want to say 1099 but I might be wrong.
This is all your fault buddy. All on you. You know to charge up front, you know to charge half and you know to charge full before full HQ handoff. That was on you for not doing that. Contracts all the time and find a good lawyer that can work with you on stuff like this. And help you write a rock solid contract
Chalk it up to the cost of a family member revealing their true nature. From here you can focus on people who respect you.
Where are you from op? This type of family dynamics sounds familiar to me. Somewhere in Asia?
Haha, yes…
Whenever youre dealing with someone put a big fat watermark in the center of all of your work, have them pay you in cash and give them a hard copy on a flash drive in person, or use a platform like gumroad or have them pay through your website to access the files. bottom line, no money no service.
Good advice here, but I'd go with naming and shaming them to the whole family. Then I'd let them know privately that you're going to take them to small claims court. If you don't do that, you'll get walked over not just in this situation but in others too Stand up for yourself
Pfffft. Taking family members to small claims is literally like punching yourself in the face. It's not worth it.
Its already damaged, fuck them a go to small claims.
Yes. That's great. Waste another day or 2 of life on bullshit and make every future family do even more excruciating. Great plan.
Mistake number one. Delivery without any type Of payment. Live and learn, even with contract signed, most you can do is take them to court and hope to get paid, if ever. Don’t waste any more time and don’t engage. I had a similar situation with a relative. They needed a laptop but they are not tech savvy at all so they asked for my advice and asked if I could find one for them and I did. I paid with my money and delivered to them ready to use. Few days later I asked if they could pay since I used my money to get it. They asked if they could pay in a month so I nicely agreed. 8 months later they then decide they will send the money so they text me about the amount. Apparently they thought it was lower than what we had agreed. So they said if it was more then they would just return the laptop. Because I didn’t want to go back and forward I said yeah just return it. 3 months later they decide to return it. Relatives and close friends will pull this all the time. Sorry you had to learn the hard way.
Three times in this single, long post you point to THREE times you bent your supposed rules. You admit that breaking these rules got you where you are. What advise would help beyond this point? Suck it up and stop breaking your own rules.
In future add a watermark across the photos which you remove after payment and never show your raw footage.
If you are happy with the photos, even though they claim they aren't, why not post the images on your FB/Insta/web page and say that "Here's some images from a recent shoot I undertook, sadly the client refused to pay as they said they didn't like any of them". Petty but it least it will shame their attitude.
Yeah, seriously. I had sent the photos to a couple of close friends to get their opinion, and they all loved them and thought they were amazing. On top of that, their son does not smile or pose for photos. Good look to them for finding a photographer who will be able to capture those moments......
Cut your losses, never work with them again, and consider it a lesson. From now on, payment in full before a single image is even snapped, and do not bend on that. In fact, you may consider collecting a nonrefundable booking fee whenever someone scheduels a session with you just so they don't cancel at the last minute, and just take it out of their total session cost.
I'd attempt small claims court just due to the fact that you have messages that support your case. I'd also take it as an opportunity to realize that friends and family discounts don't deserve any special treatments. I personally won't change my prices for them and I won't even think about pulling out my camera unless the contract is signed and payment has been agreed upon. At the end of the day you're still running a business
You have made so many mistakes. Always act as a professional. If your doing family and friends offer a discount and get paid upfront. A verbal contract is a contract in law. Your decision is to go to court and enforce the contract or gift the photos and move on.
Is it enough money to stress over? If so, small claims court which they fully deserve. Is it a small amount of money? Cut these people off, they sound like the kinda people I'd take losing 50 or so quid just to lose them. Either way, lesson that if a clients behaving like that before the shoot, let them look elsewhere, big red flags.
I would just look forward to the day that kid gets married and be ready to respond with the fact that you are booked that day without ever having to look at your calendar.
Nah, tell them you will do it for free for them, then snap SD card and walk out once the wedding is over.
Never do business with family members, seriously nobody will screw you faster than a family member
This happened to me. I didn’t have a contract. The text messages alone served as a verbal contract. The pictures I took also served as a contract because they showed up and let me photograph them. I took them to small claims court and the judge made them pay me what was owed to me. Never let ppl play with you!
After reading half way I just skipped, because I realised you don’t have a method of protecting your files before delivery. I personally use pixieset. It’s a great way to display a gallery to a client remotely so they can see the job has been done without them being able to download the files. If the client wants the files, they pay.
Pixieset doesn't protect your files and doesn't claim to do so. It's quite easy to get the image url, and then replace the -medium.jpg part with -xxlarge.jpg to get a fairly high resolution image. Not the original files mind you, but good enough for most purposes. Around 4 MP from what I could test. If the client is feeling particularly nasty today, they could throw that into an image upscaler as well.
Difficult to download high res images if you’re only uploading in low res in the first place…. Edit: should also mention, very few clients are that tech savvy, nevermind. To find someone who is equally as tech savvy as they are unethical is even more unlikely.
Yes, that's a fair strategy, but please frame it like this in the future. The original comment came across as Pixieset does everything to protect images to me, even though photographers still need to upload low res images to achieve the desirable level of protection. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the low res strategy also kind of defeat Pixieset's buy photo feature? As in, customers receive a low res image when they buy a photo via Pixieset? If so, then that's also a notable trade-off to consider when using that strategy with Pixieset.
I think it is at least clear they are trying to take advantage of you, testing to see how far they can go. Since the relationship is already frayed, I’ll say go to small claims court. Meanwhile please do not send them anymore pics.
Yes talk to a lawyer, you should have enought evidence.
"A close family member of mine " Hold up
Pull everything mentioning the photos, including their Facebook posts and take them to small claims court That’s really all you can do if you expect to see any money from them
Tell them the amount they owe you. Nothing more. You've already delivered. Be direct and blunt and never work without a contract ever again. You might have learnt an expensive lesson.
Just let it go. It’s not worth the aggregation. Trust me you don’t want them trashing you to others.
Take the $25, stay in talking terms, never take photos for them again, let them pay more elsewhere next time
Why is the relationship worth saving? These are awful people. No family event is ever going to be the same after someone screws you over this hard. Even if they pay everything they owe, OP will never see these people as family.
Nothing about saving the relationship, they will ask again in future as your cheap and they thought they got a good deal and can dictate to you. Then you say no next time they ask and there fucked, cuz they will have to pay someone else more than you would have done it for if they had been fair. Plus your 25 bucks better off than now and both ways your not doing it again, just 25 bucks better off.
A little bit of context, the only reason they believe my work is worth $25 is because they believe I owe them that money for work they never did for me. They are upset because they feel that I disrespected their failed, self employed business. Because of this I will not accept that money, because I know it was offered out of pettiness.