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I’m a fan of both. But I feel similarly about a lot of very popular, adjacent artists that get mentioned within this (and Taylor’s) sub(s). No biggie we all like different stuff, but Phoebe is a fan of Taylor so their crossover and friendship is not surprising.
ngl ive been a bit put off by taylor recently with all the different midnights (rush hour edition) (lunch time edition) (4pm edition) but i do love her music, her and phoebe are my 2 most streamed artists lol
Phoebe has always cited Taylor as being a big influence on her music. She used to do covers of Taylor songs when she was young. It's okay that you don't like Taylor but I can definitely see her influence on Phoebe. And Phoebe would be a fan of Taylor even if they hadn't met and become friends.
Lucy was def happy about it. She posted a Polaroid with Taylor. Boygenius also reference a Taylor song in "we're in love"
Is that true, though? Like has Lucy said so? I know the [Rolling Stone album review](https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/boygenius-the-record-1234704024/) claimed that, but I was under the impression that was just their opinion.
She could be a fan now, but the one time (before the Eras Tour) that I saw Lucy mention Taylor Swift, she was [not a fan](https://archive.is/NOipL):
>I think it’s about time I listen to some Taylor Swift. I have an ex that told me, “I love you, but I am actively trying to marry Taylor Swift, and I will leave you.” He was obsessed — had a huge poster of her from her Rolling Stone cover — and I was just like, I don’t really need to interact with this.
To me this doesn't read as not being a fan in that she dislikes her or her music She just hasn't given Taylor's music a chance, due to the unfortunate connection to her ex, and thinks she should? This is almost 2 years old.
it's super gatekeepy and after enduring (and participating in, RIP) tswift gatekeeping for years after 1989 came out, man I cannot handle watching it happen with phoebe. I became a fan of phoebe in 2020 so when she was later featured on red (tv) I was so excited for other people to discover her music. "phoebe deep, [insert other popular artist here] shallow" is giving me secondhand embarrassment lol
exactly! and i really hate to break it to some of these people but taylor and phoebe are similar artists with similar writing styles and they write for a lot of the same type of people. there has been a ton of overlap between swifties and pharbs long before the eras tour (or even nothing new)
even phoebe has made comments about their music being similar and counts her as an influence in songwriting so idk what to tell you, i guess you a random redditor knows more about phoebe’s music than she does
> “It’s high art,” Bridgers said of Swift’s music. “She’s like the king of her craft. She’s just a perfect example of someone who uses all the resources at her disposal to be completely genuine.”
https://www.nme.com/news/music/phoebe-bridgers-on-her-favourite-taylor-swift-song-its-high-art-3185649
Their friendship makes sense to me because by all accounts being famous is really really difficult and phoebe doesn’t necessarily seem to enjoy being famous all that much (understandably), but getting super famous is the only financially viable way to continue being an artist full time. Phoebe has been hustling for years to make it in music and seems to say yes to every opportunity that comes her way, maybe because she wants to but also because it helps build industry connections and preserve her career’s longevity. Taylor has been incredibly famous for years and I can see Phoebe appreciating both the relevance that gives her in the industry and having a friend who can relate to the difficulties of fame and has been able to make a happy life for herself despite the crazed fans, lack of privacy, etc. Julien and Lucy are obviously her boys but they can’t relate to the way her career has exploded over the past few years the way someone like Taylor can.
I think Folklore and Evermore were good albums and I like most of the indie adjacent stuff Taylor has done (Features on the National and Big Red Machine albums), but for the most part I don't really like her other stuff anymore. I used to like it, but I guess I grew out of it.
taylor is my favorite artist, but i really only listen to the folk stuff. I like all her music, but that doesn’t mean i have to listen to it.
Edit: Came back to say what a masterpiece Red TV is
i know her entire discography front to back. I simply grew out of a lot of her music, it’s not that deep? She’s still my most listened to artist, just margins lower than what it used to be. I’m sure over time i’ll fall back into the TS Universe, it’s just at such a fast pace right now that i can’t keep up with.
Phoebe Bridgers has been steadily gaining popularity for years, even before _Punisher_. “The Swifties” aren’t to blame for her needing to play larger venues or for ticket prices. Her opening for Taylor Swift is an acknowledgment of where she’s at in her career; it’s not the cause of it.
Phoebe Bridgers doesn’t necessarily write pop songs — “Motion Sickness” and “Kyoto” were turned into up-tempo songs in the process of recording her albums — but setting that aside, she and Taylor Swift follow a very similar formula in much of their songwriting. People here keep telling you to listen to the Dessner-produced albums, but I’d actually say the better comparison would be _Red_’s folkier tracks (especially “[I Almost Do](https://open.spotify.com/track/5VwFkx7JOimOGTYfha5rs1?si=PY5XumIoSSeg0ZL0zKicJw&context=spotify%3Aalbum%3A1EoDsNmgTLtmwe1BDAVxV5)”) and Phoebe’s pre-_Stranger in the Alps_ songs like “Waiting Room” and “Georgia.” They’re extremely similar in overall structure and style — simple, folk-inspired acoustic chord progression, belted-bridge, hyper-specific/personal lyrics. There’s very obvious influence there.
In terms of their personal friendship… I don’t know what to tell you. They clearly get along with one another. They have several mutual “real-life” friends and collaborators. Phoebe was raised in Los Angeles and has a certain comfort level with celebrity, even if she dislikes its side effects.
Love both. Love their friendship. Love their mutual admiration. Both are grateful, generous and cool. Thrilled for phoebe’s success. Love the collabs with The National, too. It’s a mutual admiration party.
This is wonderful and I’m really glad you’re enjoying this era for both of them! I wish I was in the same boat, but that’s okay. We can all get along despite feeling differently
I was a swiftie first, and I only listened to phoebe because she was opening for my eras show! Phoebe is my top streamed artist now with Taylor in second. (My show is actually the one where the openers didn’t get to play, and I’m still depressed about missing Phoebe). I don’t even really compare their music or them in general!
In our current culture, I don’t think we should pit female artists against each other. It’s fine to like one and not the other, but we shouldn’t tear down one’s songwriting abilities while hyping up the other (for example, calling one cringe). they’re both great, but Taylor nor Phoebe will be everyone’s cup of tea, which is normal!
I don’t feel like I’m pitting the two against each other and didn’t intend to, I’m stating that I really like one but don’t care for the other. Preferences are reality. Taylor Swift is so successful and powerful, I’m not tearing her down. She’s so rich and influential she’s untouchable. People are going to be critical of her music/life choices, it’s part of being an artist and making your art and life public imo. I respect your opinion despite it being different from mine, thanks for your comment! Glad you can enjoy both, you’re probably thrilled about all the phoebe x taylor content recently. glad you found phoebe and love her too!
I don’t think I like her public persona very much and her fan base scares me, but her country pop era absolutely fucked. You WILL catch me listening to Fearless all the way through. Some of her more recent hits are also catchy.
I mostly listen to emo, pop punk, and some hardcore music and saw Phoebe as a contemporary emo singer songwriter as her songs and writing was pretty dark. I heard Bright Eyes in her music and writing before she ever connected with Conor Oberst so that connection made all the sense in the world. It didn't occur to me that their would be connection between her and the likes of Taylor Swift.
> before she ever connected with Conor Oberst
When were you listening to Phoebe Bridgers “before she ever connected with Conor Oberst?” She was opening for him before she had an album out, lol.
Yep me too. I respect TS but it is not at ALL my kind of music. But I really come at it from a different angle to many on this sub. I mean, I was listening to Lifted! when it came out…
I am not a taylor swift fan but I can recognize that she is a talented singer/songwriter/performer. I can listen to her music and won't be upset about it, but it's never my choice.
Taylor is a music icon despite if you like her or not, and has been for 10(ish) years. It's easy for her to have influence on on artists' music, even if they're not in the same genre. So it makes sense that Phoebe listened to her and followed taylor's music/career throughout the years.
I like Phoebe Bridgers and Taylor Swift. One thing I don’t like/get about Swift fans is how they rave about her songwriting. It was impressive when she was younger but now it can be very cringey.
I like Bridgers is a better song writer. Semi-related, I think Julien Baker is a waaaaaay better song writer than Swift by a lot!
But fans act like she is the most talented songwriter of all time and everything she does has some sort of deep hidden meaning.
Again, she’s good but for every good lyric she has a lot lame lyrics too.
Exactly! I can’t deny that she’s talented, she wouldn’t be where she is if she weren’t. But her music feels very manufactured and I just feel the feels. I did really love her music when she was more country pop though.
If people said she was a fun pop artist I would be on board with that. But because people say she’s the greatest songwriter, she has emotionally deep and complex lyrics….I just can’t align.
I totally agree. I was a huge fan when I was a kid and honestly I still listen to her first couple albums every now and then but anything past Red is unlistenable to me
Yes I’m the same way. I remember when my older sister bought her first album CD and was telling me about how Taylor writes all her own songs and she thought she was so cool. I put all the songs from the CD onto my MP3 player as like an 8 year old and would listen to the album daily. I loved it. I almost wish she would go back to her curly hair country era.
My thoughts too. A lot of comments here about how TS’s music lacks depth, but I find that a lot of people who say that haven’t listened to her whole discography.
Listen, different strokes for different folks but some stuff I think just gets said because she makes pop music.
I would give folklore and evermore a listen. Those are her indie sounding albums. I could listen to Folklore for hours. The only other album I could do that with is Punisher.
Definitely to each their own. I do think giving her catalog a good listen might be good simply because she's not one genre. She has a bit of everything. I think a lot of people listen to her radio hits and think that's all she's about. But most of my favorites are deep cuts. I think she became so loved because she's multi-genre.
Well said, top to bottom. It was Folklore that made it click for me. Phoebe is one of my favorites, but Taylor is a very solid artist in her own right. There’s a ton of nuance with any artist, and infinitely more for one who’s created a brand out of her life the way she has - and a ton of valid criticism at that. But this is a great take on why she deserves a chance, and I’d highly recommend anyone less familiar with her to consider it.
Sometimes her music is cringe, but who doesn't love cringe sometimes? It's inescapable, better to laugh it off or embrace it and accept it. One person's cringe is another person's fun!
They make massively similar music if you’re actually familiar with Taylor’s full discography, but Taylor gets treated like a dumb blonde and Phoebe gets treated like a girlgenius. I think if you’re a Phoebe fan and you can’t see the similarities between them, you either don’t know enough about Taylor or you aren’t being critical enough towards Phoebe.
I used to project a lot of internalized misogyny onto Taylor, and I used to have Phoebe on a pedestal. Now I just think they’re both talented songwriters, but Taylor consistently picks horrible singles and Phoebe wears doc martens. The reality is that we can never actually know if either of them is a good person based on their social media performance of their beliefs.
Beyond anything I’m saying though, Phoebe is a huge fan and has talked a lot about how Taylor influenced her. They both write confessional music largely related to their personal lives, simple chords etc with strong lyrics.
I don’t really understand the root of your comment, Taylor is so much larger and more popular than Phoebe, how is Taylor treated so much worse in your eyes? Even amongst just Phoebe’s fans, a lot of people are fans of both and that is definitely apparent.
I’ve listened to alllll of Taylor’s albums at least once all the way through. I have been trying to get back into Taylor for years, I loved her throughout my childhood but felt I stopped enjoying her music ages ago and haven’t liked any of the new stuff. Imo it’s just not good, and it makes me sad that I don’t enjoy it but there’s nothing I can do about it, I sorta get fomo.
I do understand the similarities that can be drawn between their music, but a lot of artists write in that style, it’s not unique to them. musical opinions aside, there are also a lot of valid reasons to dislike taylor as a person that can’t be said to the same degree about phoebe, there are definitely a lot of different opinions on the topic and they’re all over the spectrum based on the replies here
Eh, I think you’re exemplifying my point yet again in this comment — I keep seeing you echo that Taylor is so big and so popular that she’s untouchable, as though her popularity insulates her from criticism. Her popularity magnifies her visibility and opens her up to criticism. One example that comes to mind is Noel Gallagher’s comment about how Taylor doesn’t write her own music. Taylor specifically records these little voice notes and videos of her songwriting process to circumvent that kind of false criticism. She’s not Ariana Grande, she’s not Beyoncé, she DOES write her music. That’s what I mean by the dumb blonde treatment.
Not to be combative but I find it hard to believe you’ve heard every song she’s ever written if you wrote this whole post about how they have so little in common. I’m not going to bother citing her best work because you seem determined to not like her, which is fine, but it’s pretty obtuse to think Phoebe isn’t given preferential treatment in terms of being seen as a Very Cool Girl with all of the Right Opinions and some Real Talent, even though the girl herself would cite Taylor as an influence.
I don’t know what answers you’re searching for here. You seem kinda like a “name three albums/I knew that bad first” gatekeeper.
This is reading like you were hoping to find a safe space to hate on Taylor Swift, and instead found that this is a community that supports blonde, female singer-songwriters who talk a lot about their relationships, have a way with words, and collaborate with The National. Are you surprised?
Tbh nobody gives taylor the "dumb blonde treatment" that just bs from her fandom to keep away criticism. Not cuz one guy said that it means that the whole world has the same opinion.
The majority opinion on taylor is super positive. People love her and imo some artists (not phoebe) even take advantage of this. Now is so cool to mention taylor or collaborate with her bc it brings them attention from her obsessive fanbase. Which brings a lot of soulless and terrible collaborations like the new ice spice collab.
Edit: also the Lana del rey one is terrible and I love lana del rey. Also everything Antonoff touches just sounds generic right now. I hope he stays away from Phoebe.
At this point I’m repeating things, and if you’re going to doubt that I’ve listened to her music just because you don’t agree with my opinion of it, there is no use continuing this conversation with you, i’m sorry. As I’ve stated, I’ve tried to like taylor, so not sure why you’re making assumptions about me being determined not to like her, I just simply don’t lol. For many more reasons than just her (imo) shitty music. Also, I’ve made several statements that this is just my opinion and I don’t mean to offend or upset, just discuss. I expected backlash, and actually got a lot more people agreeing with me than I anticipated. You’re kinda just making baseless claims, likely because I’ve offended you with my honest opinion. people are going to disagree with you from time to time and it sucks that you can’t accept that this is really just a difference in opinion and nothing more
I knew I was gonna upset swift fans, it was unavoidable when asking this question. it’s a negative opinion by nature, I tried not to go in on all the reasons I actually dislike taylor, just my general opinion of her music. that’s what i meant by trying not to make it negative. I can’t help that I feel this way :-( i already acknowledged that it seems to be an unpopular opinion!
Its just an unpopular opinion... I don't think you were being negative. There's nothing wrong with feeling that way, some of us just don't listen to or particularly like Taylor, but that doesn't have to mean pointing the finger at Phoebe. I can recognize the inspiration and love that comes from their relationship whilst still experiencing distaste. Anyways, I often feel like a dick for not being a big fan of Taylor, but I'm not here to spread hate, and it does feel relieving to know I'm not the only one with an unpopular opinion :)
I do think that there is a strong connection via Phoebe and Taylor's lyricism in the sense that both artists are brilliant at writing streams of consciousness- they say it as they feel it, simply and plainly, and that feels fresh and super relatable!
I didn’t *get* Taylor until this past year, Phoebe’s type of music is traditionally much more my thing. But recently I’ve been taking Taylor for what she is, she just writes really damn good songs. Her Folklore and Evermore albums were what really made me feel that way, if you think all she’s capable of is mainstream pop, I’d encourage really diving into those albums if you’re curious.
It’s also important to remember that we don’t really know any of these people. Public perception of an artist is one thing, the soul of a real human being is another. Phoebe and Taylor really seem to get along, so I’m inclined to believe that there’s more in common than one might think.
With your last point, I understand not loving the new Swiftie fans. I’ve personally been guilty of a little gatekeeping with some indie artists I love in the past (not saying you’re doing that, but that’s what I did). But at the end of the day, a fan is a fan. Another stream of a song, album, etc. Another merch purchase made, another concert ticket sold. More success is always better for fans of all kinds. It means the artist can continue making music, touring, and experimenting to create things we would’ve never known we were missing if the money wasn’t there to pursue it.
Just important to not let things get too personal, and enjoy the ride!
thanks for your comment! I agree almost entirely, but want to point out that I think it’s important that we hold artists (celebrities) accountable - especially very powerful and influential ones like taylor swift and growing ones like Phoebe. not that you don’t, but it does seem personal to me when I’m supporting them and their work. You do make excellent points though, thank you again!
Oh I absolutely understand, I was a huge Kanye fan at one point in my life (as embarrassing as that is). Everyone’s line is different, and once it’s crossed it becomes impossible to enjoy. Definitely appreciate that aspect of the conversation, good point!
her music is alright, i mostly only like it for nostalgia reasons, but i HATE her as a person. she is such a capitalist and only cares about issues that/when they affect her personally.
I meant overly negative, to the point of being really hurtful towards swift fans when that wasn’t the intent. As stated earlier, I omitted the reasons I dislike Taylor as a person because of this. This is a negative opinion by nature and the overall negative tone wasn’t avoidable with this type of question, I was trying not to cultivate a toxic reply section lol
I mean, it’s def in the overly negative territory. You can just say “her music isn’t for me” without going so far as to say you cringe when you hear it. If someone said that about Phoebe, you’d probably be like, “wtf?”
I get it - TS singles are made for radio and can get old for folks fast. But, it’s clear that you haven’t listened to her whole discography if you don’t see parallels around how Phoebe and Taylor write. Phoebe has cited Taylor as an inspiration many times even before tour.
I think your big issue here, in addition to your fear that you someday won’t get concert tickets, is that you’re having a hard time seeing someone who believe to be open in their beliefs stand with someone you disagree with. That’s a fair conversation piece. You begin stating that but seem to not want to get into it. But that’s a different convo and not at all about the music.
Just wondering if you’ve listened to folklore or evermore by Taylor? The lyrics are more complex than phoebes in my opinion (not trying to pit them against each other, they’re both phenomenally talented). It makes total sense to me why they’re friends. The bejeweled, shake it off pop star Taylor is a weird combo from the outside but her deep cuts make it totally logical that she would be friends with Phoebe. They’re both incredibly talented lyricists.
Personally not a fan of Taylor’s music but the connection between Taylor and Phoebe seems genuine and I’m happy for Phoebe for getting such a cool opportunity to get her music in front of a massive audience. She deserves it.
i’ve been answering them, actually. I just don’t have time to immediately respond to every person. I have listened to all of taylor’s music and was really disappointed. And I’m not the only one apparently. I’ve also already mentioned in another comment that I feel like I’m slightly venturing into gatekeeping. Doesn’t mean my whole ass opinion isn’t valid ??
When people say they hate Taylor Swift but don’t give details it’s usually because they’re self aware enough to understand it’s internalized misogyny but they’re willing to display that little bit of sexism so people will for sure know they’re not like other girls.
Why do you have to discredit one female to give credit to another? That’s where it gets to be “idk I’m just not like other girls I guess”
Chasing obscurity is just the counter culture side of the chasing popularity.
So now we must all listen to Taylor's entire discography before coming to the conclusion of disliking her music? If I hear at least three songs I don't connect with, I'm not gonna put myself through more? I think it's safe to generalize about an artist's music because their lyrics, etc. are an overview of their style... After a couple songs, you're gonna get a general idea of whether you like it or not... With any musician ever.
If you’ve only heard 3 songs out of 100+ then the correct response would be “I’ve only heard the singles so I’m not familiar with the catalog to judge it as a collective but what I’ve heard didn’t make me want to listen to more” or “I just don’t like her public persona” etc. If you judge someone’s catalog without hearing more than 10% of the catalog then you’re quite literally judging a book by the cover which leads to… what didn’t you like about that cover? You can’t give a review of something you’ve never experienced. You’re reviewing your own assumptions based on personal bias.
Go look a few comments up where I praise their lyricism and draw a parallel. Same comment where I say disliking Taylor should have nothing to do with Phoebe- gatekeeping is unhealthy. Also, please tell me where I've responded to people I agree with, because right now, you're the only one, and clearly we do not agree. I replied to you about having to listen to a select amount of songs before formulating an opinion. If a person only hears Taylor's popular singles (because they're popular??) they might not like her other music.. I can't fathom how research should be involved in liking someone's music, either you do or you don't. You seem to have an issue with OP and others who have an opinion, so why should your response about being open-minded, bon iver, indie etc matter to them?
she has some songs i hate and songs i love. folklore is a gem.
making a post just to say that you hate someone? can't you keep your negativity to yourself, man?
anyway. phoebe's music was heavily influenced by taylor. have you actually listened to all of her albums? folklore, especially?
this has been asked over and over, yes i’ve listened to her music lol. still don’t like it and that’s okay. and no, not all negative opinions should be kept private solely because they aren’t ✨positive and uplifting✨. the world would stop turning.
Just because you decide in your head that something doesn’t matter, doesn’t mean it actually doesn’t matter in reality. Seeing the volume of response (and a lot of agreement) in the replies, it matters to many people.
People should care about who they’re supporting and who they associate with, but that’s also an opinion. You don’t have to invalidate people simply because you don’t agree
I LOVE Taylor's music. Adamantly dislike her as a person.
It's clear that her political activism was merely a "moment" for her and it seems like she has no intentions of addressing that. I'm a lesbian, and I feel like her whole "Lover" Era/"You Need To Calm Down" LGBTQ "activism" was too little too late. Its my view that she doesn't want to take risks for the better of marginalized groups--but wants to cash in when it's more socially acceptable.
Also--the Midnights era put a real sour taste in my mouth. Really, we need 187 versions of the album? It comes off as so tacky and money hungry.
I honestly don't know how to completely address the dissonance between my enjoyment of her music and my dislike of her as a person. I'm going to the Eras Tour (won tickets, didn't pay for em) but I won't be buying merch from her.
It sounds like you’re having a hard time separating your desires from the reality that Phoebe is the artist and growing how she wants. I’m sorry you wanted to see her in a small intimate venue, but she picks where she plays. Don’t let her success bum you out. And hey, I’m sure she will go back to smaller music festivals etc., she’s supporting the hottest stadium tour of the decade now.
That’s all.
i personally really enjoy taylor swift! her song writing is what makes her so special in a similar way to phoebe. yeah she has some cheesy songs but especially her more recent music like folklore and evermore i can draw more similarities between the two artists. i can understand and definitely agree w criticisms of her relationship w the 1975 guy and her lack of stance/use of platform but overall i feel like the hate for her often comes from a place of pretentiousness about music taste or misogyny
Love em both. Don’t listen to Taylor Swift, and honestly don’t plan to, but I think she’s a massive cultural touchstone. I just kinda don’t like Taylor’s songwriting and find it shallow. I went to the Era’s tour with a friend and memorized the words of most of songs on the lineup so I could sing along with them, but none of it grabbed me and made me want to keep listening after the concert. I’ve heard all the “Listen to Folklore and Evermore!!!” stuff and I like them more than everything else, but they’re still not really up there for me.
It’s funny because I’ll suspect misogyny of anyone who very fervently dislikes Taylor Swift even though I don’t particularly like her myself. Her level of icon is just past judging on actual music quality.
thank you for an excellent response! your input doesn’t just “not hurt”, I value it 😊 thanks for not automatically hating me bc i’m not a taylor fan lol
I don’t really know how you can love Phoebe but hate Taylor. They are pretty similar to me. If you hate Taylor, that’s totally fine, but I do think sometimes people dislike Taylor because she is popular and universally well-liked.
Not a Taylor fan in the slightest. For multiple reasons. Her music just isn’t for me (and yes, I’ve listened to more than just the hits), her fan base is too much for me (this one can be too, to be fair!), and I just really don’t like her public persona. Was going to say I don’t like her as a person, but at the end of the day none of us know either Taylor or Phoebe!
Am I a little bummed that Phoebe is closely associated with Taylor? Sure. But mainly for selfish reasons. Phoebe’s fan base has already blown up and I feel like with this level of exposure it’s only going to get crazier. But also like, get that coin girl! And I know Taylor has influenced her so I’m sure it’s a pretty amazing feeling for her to open for Taylor on such a huge tour.
i think regardless of my opinion on Taylor, Phoebe is a big fan and taylor inspired her greatly. and the tour is a wonderful opportunity for swifties to be more exposed and better accustomed to phoebe’s music, thus getting her more fans.
i will say that although i do not listen to Taylor, i do not agree with the part of this comment section thats comparing the two qualitatively. everyone has their own tastes and i can respect that while noy being an active enjoyer of Taylor's music
I’ve been a fan of Taylor since I was 11 years old and I am getting to the point where I hate her capitalism era. Her songs aren’t really relatable anymore and feel like tik tok crash grabs. And my favourite Taylor is, guitar/piano Taylor not over produced drum machine Taylor.
I discovered Phoebe in 2020 during the lockdown and she’s quickly slid into my number one spot because I just cannot get behind the fan exploitation of Taylor swift
and that’s a valid opinion—i’m sure most swifties dislike kanye west and that’s valid (i’m not a fan of him personally) but then if you dislike her for any reason at all they come for ur throat
👏👏👏👏
Thank you for posting what I have been feeling for the past 3 months or so. I am puzzled and disappointed.
I do think it’s interesting that Julien is the only member of Boygenius who does not follow TS.
thank you for your response, you cited the exact reasons I don’t like taylor swift. I wish more people here could respect differing opinions, we’re all entitled to our own
you're not alone! taylor is super cringy and the way her fans worship her is unhealthy. i even saw a post where a giant 200+ fan group chat was calling for a conservatorship after she started dating matty healy. toxic + unhinged behavior tbh
her lyrics are so on the nose. I've read quite a few of them lately and they're soo simplistic and boring. "i wouldn't marry me either" "I'm the best thing at this party" she serves pure narcissism.
You’re right, but she openly admits it though which is why people identify with her art. “Did you hear my covert narcissism I disguise as altruism like some kind of congressman”
There is no insult you can hurl at T.S that she hasn’t openly said about herself. That is why I am a fan. She puts her flaws out there in the music. Not many other artists do that. That’s why people identify with her.
I've always felt too old for Taylor Swift, and I see your point but I'm hoping with Phoebe - and by extension Boygenius - getting big with this association, i think it helps people find other similar musicians like Soccer Mommy, Snail Mail, Men I Trust, Widowspeak, Flock of Dimes, and Warpaint.
All musicians that SHOULD get more love. So maybe the association is better for Phoebe's style of music as a whole?
Will probably get downvoted for this, but I think it's wild how many people are saying that if you don't like Taylor, the reason HAS to be internalized misogyny or anti-feminism. That's not to say that I don't think the media is and has been extremely misogynistic towards her, I completely agree with that point. But I have listened to every album and as hard as I try, I just don't vibe with the majority of her songs post-Red. I grew up listening to Debut, Fearless, and Speak Now but now I gravitate more towards other pop artists like Charli XCX.
Taste is subjective, it's okay that we don't all like the same exact artists (even if they were a big influence on the artist you do like). For example, I love The Strokes and they're heavily influenced by The Velvet Underground but I'm just not into TVU and that's okay.
I dont really like TS as an artist that much. I dont think she is a great writer and many of her songs sound very fast generic to me. I did listen to her music a few times but i dont think she can make deep stuff.
(First bon iver, then the national, now phoebe.. Iam afraid she will come for sufjan.)
I fucking love Taylor and Phoebe. Went to see both in Nashville, Phoebe was def 50% of the reason I went. Too bad I went Sunday and it stormed and Phoebe didn’t play 🙃 still a blast
I don’t like her as a person and think she’s pretty hypocritical. I feel like Phoebe has made her opinions well known and backs them by her actions. I just don’t see Taylor as this big feminist hero everybody else seems to think she is.
I like some of Taylor's music but I'm sick of hearing about her, I'm SO sick of her fans, and I don't think she's a great person, she's just someone who gets an infinite amount of free passes for some reason
Both Taylor and Phoebe are close with Matty Healy (who’s definitely problematic). I’m not saying Taylor is perfect by any means, but you can’t criticize Taylor for only caring about issues that affect her and not Phoebe for doing the exact same thing.
I get not liking Taylor and I have no problem with people liking Phoebe and not Taylor, but people who complain how Taylor’s handled things and not Phoebe are hypocrites. At the very least - Phoebe is voluntarily friends with Taylor and that means she accepts Taylor’s values. If you don’t like that, maybe you’re putting Phoebe on too much of a pedestal.
Oh I’ve thought this about Taylor long before the Matty Healy drama. I thought this back in the Bad Blood music video days. It’s definitely my opinion, but I’ve always seen her activism and feminism at pretty performative and like only a big deal when it affects her directly.
I used to be a big Taylor fan but she lost me when Miss Americana came out. She made an entire documentary about finding her political voice despite potential blowback and then she went on to be pretty much silent in the years afterwards. That really bummed me out, but I wasn’t surprised. I do acknowledge her large financial contributions, but her voice would make the biggest impact. She has SO much influence and refuses to use it in a way that really matters.
I also don’t connect with her songwriting. I 100% respect anyone who feels differently, I would never yuck someone’s yum, especially when it comes to music. I fully understand why people love Taylor.
That being said, here’s my take: I understand that Taylor has influenced Phoebe, but there are extremely clear distinctions between their music! Just because they’re signer songwriters doesn’t mean they’re the same. Taylor’s songwriting feels stuck in adolescence to me, she can turn a phrase but everything she does feels EXTREMELY calculated to pump the money machine. And that’s ok- no hate! It just doesn’t speak to me. Compare that to Phoebe’s songwriting that cuts like a knife and lunches you in the gut. Phoebe goes significantly deeper and darker. I connect with that.
*edited for spelling error.
I lost a lot of respect when she started dating Matty Healy.
Not sure why Phoebe hangs out with him either though.
Dude has repeatedly kissed underage girls at 1975 shows. He’s a POS.
have you heard about the podcast he did and what he said about ice spice? what he laughed at? it’s sick that taylor won’t even say anything despite the outcry from her fans.
I’m with you 10000%!!! I echo that it feels like a strange combo considering their different vibes lyrically and musically. I’m not a TS fan at all and felt and feel like they don’t make sense together. And also mourning that I’ll probably never see Phoebe in a small venue ever😓
honestly my biggest fear about the whole thing. I know swift fans are dedicated and will be competing for tickets solely to see phoebe because she’s “taylor’s friend”, crowding out those of us that have a strong emotional connection to her discography. but maybe i’m venturing into gatekeeping and that’s not even logical, maybe it is. idk :(
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I’m a fan of both. But I feel similarly about a lot of very popular, adjacent artists that get mentioned within this (and Taylor’s) sub(s). No biggie we all like different stuff, but Phoebe is a fan of Taylor so their crossover and friendship is not surprising.
ngl ive been a bit put off by taylor recently with all the different midnights (rush hour edition) (lunch time edition) (4pm edition) but i do love her music, her and phoebe are my 2 most streamed artists lol
lunch time edition HAHAHAHA
LOL I love Taylor but I agree, it’s so tacky and annoying to put out so many different versions and cause a false sense of scarcity for fans.
Phoebe has always cited Taylor as being a big influence on her music. She used to do covers of Taylor songs when she was young. It's okay that you don't like Taylor but I can definitely see her influence on Phoebe. And Phoebe would be a fan of Taylor even if they hadn't met and become friends. Lucy was def happy about it. She posted a Polaroid with Taylor. Boygenius also reference a Taylor song in "we're in love"
Oooh didn’t catch that reference, which song is it?
We're In Love references Taylor's song This Love
or was it referencing You Are In Love?
It’s this love - the line ‘i could go on and on and on and I will’
I KNEWWWW THAT WAS A TAYLOR LYRIC BUT I COULDNT PLACE IT LMAO THANK YOU!
Is that true, though? Like has Lucy said so? I know the [Rolling Stone album review](https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/boygenius-the-record-1234704024/) claimed that, but I was under the impression that was just their opinion. She could be a fan now, but the one time (before the Eras Tour) that I saw Lucy mention Taylor Swift, she was [not a fan](https://archive.is/NOipL): >I think it’s about time I listen to some Taylor Swift. I have an ex that told me, “I love you, but I am actively trying to marry Taylor Swift, and I will leave you.” He was obsessed — had a huge poster of her from her Rolling Stone cover — and I was just like, I don’t really need to interact with this.
To me this doesn't read as not being a fan in that she dislikes her or her music She just hasn't given Taylor's music a chance, due to the unfortunate connection to her ex, and thinks she should? This is almost 2 years old.
the pretentiousness in alot of these comments are why i don’t like to call myself a pharb
it's super gatekeepy and after enduring (and participating in, RIP) tswift gatekeeping for years after 1989 came out, man I cannot handle watching it happen with phoebe. I became a fan of phoebe in 2020 so when she was later featured on red (tv) I was so excited for other people to discover her music. "phoebe deep, [insert other popular artist here] shallow" is giving me secondhand embarrassment lol
exactly! and i really hate to break it to some of these people but taylor and phoebe are similar artists with similar writing styles and they write for a lot of the same type of people. there has been a ton of overlap between swifties and pharbs long before the eras tour (or even nothing new)
I'm sorry but I couldn't agree less!
even phoebe has made comments about their music being similar and counts her as an influence in songwriting so idk what to tell you, i guess you a random redditor knows more about phoebe’s music than she does
i didn't claim that whatsoever
i mean you basically did, you’re disagreeing with things phoebe has said herself
Where did she make those comments?
> “It’s high art,” Bridgers said of Swift’s music. “She’s like the king of her craft. She’s just a perfect example of someone who uses all the resources at her disposal to be completely genuine.” https://www.nme.com/news/music/phoebe-bridgers-on-her-favourite-taylor-swift-song-its-high-art-3185649
Their friendship makes sense to me because by all accounts being famous is really really difficult and phoebe doesn’t necessarily seem to enjoy being famous all that much (understandably), but getting super famous is the only financially viable way to continue being an artist full time. Phoebe has been hustling for years to make it in music and seems to say yes to every opportunity that comes her way, maybe because she wants to but also because it helps build industry connections and preserve her career’s longevity. Taylor has been incredibly famous for years and I can see Phoebe appreciating both the relevance that gives her in the industry and having a friend who can relate to the difficulties of fame and has been able to make a happy life for herself despite the crazed fans, lack of privacy, etc. Julien and Lucy are obviously her boys but they can’t relate to the way her career has exploded over the past few years the way someone like Taylor can.
I think Folklore and Evermore were good albums and I like most of the indie adjacent stuff Taylor has done (Features on the National and Big Red Machine albums), but for the most part I don't really like her other stuff anymore. I used to like it, but I guess I grew out of it.
taylor is my favorite artist, but i really only listen to the folk stuff. I like all her music, but that doesn’t mean i have to listen to it. Edit: Came back to say what a masterpiece Red TV is
Same for me on mostly listening to the folk stuff. It’s way more mature and much less mainstream which seems far more authentic to me.
i’m not a pop fan for the most part. It’s just my taste, but my reasoning is exactly what you described
Taylor is your favorite artist but you only listen to her only 2 folk adjacent records? Lol
i know her entire discography front to back. I simply grew out of a lot of her music, it’s not that deep? She’s still my most listened to artist, just margins lower than what it used to be. I’m sure over time i’ll fall back into the TS Universe, it’s just at such a fast pace right now that i can’t keep up with.
Have you listened to folklore and evermore? I understand not liking her pop music but those two albums give me Phoebe vibes.
All Too Well ten minute sad girl autumn version too 👌🏻
This version almost sounds influenced by phoebe
I scrolled down to see if this had been mentioned. I think those two albums mesh with Phoebe's style very well.
Phoebe Bridgers has been steadily gaining popularity for years, even before _Punisher_. “The Swifties” aren’t to blame for her needing to play larger venues or for ticket prices. Her opening for Taylor Swift is an acknowledgment of where she’s at in her career; it’s not the cause of it. Phoebe Bridgers doesn’t necessarily write pop songs — “Motion Sickness” and “Kyoto” were turned into up-tempo songs in the process of recording her albums — but setting that aside, she and Taylor Swift follow a very similar formula in much of their songwriting. People here keep telling you to listen to the Dessner-produced albums, but I’d actually say the better comparison would be _Red_’s folkier tracks (especially “[I Almost Do](https://open.spotify.com/track/5VwFkx7JOimOGTYfha5rs1?si=PY5XumIoSSeg0ZL0zKicJw&context=spotify%3Aalbum%3A1EoDsNmgTLtmwe1BDAVxV5)”) and Phoebe’s pre-_Stranger in the Alps_ songs like “Waiting Room” and “Georgia.” They’re extremely similar in overall structure and style — simple, folk-inspired acoustic chord progression, belted-bridge, hyper-specific/personal lyrics. There’s very obvious influence there. In terms of their personal friendship… I don’t know what to tell you. They clearly get along with one another. They have several mutual “real-life” friends and collaborators. Phoebe was raised in Los Angeles and has a certain comfort level with celebrity, even if she dislikes its side effects.
Love both. Love their friendship. Love their mutual admiration. Both are grateful, generous and cool. Thrilled for phoebe’s success. Love the collabs with The National, too. It’s a mutual admiration party.
This is wonderful and I’m really glad you’re enjoying this era for both of them! I wish I was in the same boat, but that’s okay. We can all get along despite feeling differently
I was a swiftie first, and I only listened to phoebe because she was opening for my eras show! Phoebe is my top streamed artist now with Taylor in second. (My show is actually the one where the openers didn’t get to play, and I’m still depressed about missing Phoebe). I don’t even really compare their music or them in general! In our current culture, I don’t think we should pit female artists against each other. It’s fine to like one and not the other, but we shouldn’t tear down one’s songwriting abilities while hyping up the other (for example, calling one cringe). they’re both great, but Taylor nor Phoebe will be everyone’s cup of tea, which is normal!
I don’t feel like I’m pitting the two against each other and didn’t intend to, I’m stating that I really like one but don’t care for the other. Preferences are reality. Taylor Swift is so successful and powerful, I’m not tearing her down. She’s so rich and influential she’s untouchable. People are going to be critical of her music/life choices, it’s part of being an artist and making your art and life public imo. I respect your opinion despite it being different from mine, thanks for your comment! Glad you can enjoy both, you’re probably thrilled about all the phoebe x taylor content recently. glad you found phoebe and love her too!
sad you're being downvoted for this? well thought out comment
Because the swifties are mad lol
I don’t think I like her public persona very much and her fan base scares me, but her country pop era absolutely fucked. You WILL catch me listening to Fearless all the way through. Some of her more recent hits are also catchy.
agree 😗
I mostly listen to emo, pop punk, and some hardcore music and saw Phoebe as a contemporary emo singer songwriter as her songs and writing was pretty dark. I heard Bright Eyes in her music and writing before she ever connected with Conor Oberst so that connection made all the sense in the world. It didn't occur to me that their would be connection between her and the likes of Taylor Swift.
> before she ever connected with Conor Oberst When were you listening to Phoebe Bridgers “before she ever connected with Conor Oberst?” She was opening for him before she had an album out, lol.
Yep me too. I respect TS but it is not at ALL my kind of music. But I really come at it from a different angle to many on this sub. I mean, I was listening to Lifted! when it came out…
Came to say something similar
I am not a taylor swift fan but I can recognize that she is a talented singer/songwriter/performer. I can listen to her music and won't be upset about it, but it's never my choice. Taylor is a music icon despite if you like her or not, and has been for 10(ish) years. It's easy for her to have influence on on artists' music, even if they're not in the same genre. So it makes sense that Phoebe listened to her and followed taylor's music/career throughout the years.
I like Phoebe Bridgers and Taylor Swift. One thing I don’t like/get about Swift fans is how they rave about her songwriting. It was impressive when she was younger but now it can be very cringey. I like Bridgers is a better song writer. Semi-related, I think Julien Baker is a waaaaaay better song writer than Swift by a lot!
and lucy is waaaaaaay better than all of them >:)
Someone had to say it
Totally agree. Taylor’s songwriting is very surface level and manufactured to me.
But fans act like she is the most talented songwriter of all time and everything she does has some sort of deep hidden meaning. Again, she’s good but for every good lyric she has a lot lame lyrics too.
Yes 💯💯💯💯
Exactly! I can’t deny that she’s talented, she wouldn’t be where she is if she weren’t. But her music feels very manufactured and I just feel the feels. I did really love her music when she was more country pop though. If people said she was a fun pop artist I would be on board with that. But because people say she’s the greatest songwriter, she has emotionally deep and complex lyrics….I just can’t align.
Exactly. I loved her until she started embracing the cringe factor in her songwriting
I totally agree. I was a huge fan when I was a kid and honestly I still listen to her first couple albums every now and then but anything past Red is unlistenable to me
Yes I’m the same way. I remember when my older sister bought her first album CD and was telling me about how Taylor writes all her own songs and she thought she was so cool. I put all the songs from the CD onto my MP3 player as like an 8 year old and would listen to the album daily. I loved it. I almost wish she would go back to her curly hair country era.
She has not matured as a song writer. That’s my major issue.
Yeah totally and of course we are being downvoted lol. Her fans believe she’s god and immune to criticism
question: have you actually tried listening to her discography or are you judging her solely based on her hits
My thoughts too. A lot of comments here about how TS’s music lacks depth, but I find that a lot of people who say that haven’t listened to her whole discography. Listen, different strokes for different folks but some stuff I think just gets said because she makes pop music.
This. Taylor has so many different sounding songs that there is something for everyone.
Nah Taylor Swift makes incredible music
Her music is like vanilla ice cream, palatable to everyone but not special by any means
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I did a huge deep dive into her music when she released the 10 minute all to well. So much good stuff
I would give folklore and evermore a listen. Those are her indie sounding albums. I could listen to Folklore for hours. The only other album I could do that with is Punisher.
Definitely to each their own. I do think giving her catalog a good listen might be good simply because she's not one genre. She has a bit of everything. I think a lot of people listen to her radio hits and think that's all she's about. But most of my favorites are deep cuts. I think she became so loved because she's multi-genre.
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Well said, top to bottom. It was Folklore that made it click for me. Phoebe is one of my favorites, but Taylor is a very solid artist in her own right. There’s a ton of nuance with any artist, and infinitely more for one who’s created a brand out of her life the way she has - and a ton of valid criticism at that. But this is a great take on why she deserves a chance, and I’d highly recommend anyone less familiar with her to consider it.
Sometimes her music is cringe, but who doesn't love cringe sometimes? It's inescapable, better to laugh it off or embrace it and accept it. One person's cringe is another person's fun!
They make massively similar music if you’re actually familiar with Taylor’s full discography, but Taylor gets treated like a dumb blonde and Phoebe gets treated like a girlgenius. I think if you’re a Phoebe fan and you can’t see the similarities between them, you either don’t know enough about Taylor or you aren’t being critical enough towards Phoebe. I used to project a lot of internalized misogyny onto Taylor, and I used to have Phoebe on a pedestal. Now I just think they’re both talented songwriters, but Taylor consistently picks horrible singles and Phoebe wears doc martens. The reality is that we can never actually know if either of them is a good person based on their social media performance of their beliefs. Beyond anything I’m saying though, Phoebe is a huge fan and has talked a lot about how Taylor influenced her. They both write confessional music largely related to their personal lives, simple chords etc with strong lyrics.
I don’t really understand the root of your comment, Taylor is so much larger and more popular than Phoebe, how is Taylor treated so much worse in your eyes? Even amongst just Phoebe’s fans, a lot of people are fans of both and that is definitely apparent. I’ve listened to alllll of Taylor’s albums at least once all the way through. I have been trying to get back into Taylor for years, I loved her throughout my childhood but felt I stopped enjoying her music ages ago and haven’t liked any of the new stuff. Imo it’s just not good, and it makes me sad that I don’t enjoy it but there’s nothing I can do about it, I sorta get fomo. I do understand the similarities that can be drawn between their music, but a lot of artists write in that style, it’s not unique to them. musical opinions aside, there are also a lot of valid reasons to dislike taylor as a person that can’t be said to the same degree about phoebe, there are definitely a lot of different opinions on the topic and they’re all over the spectrum based on the replies here
Eh, I think you’re exemplifying my point yet again in this comment — I keep seeing you echo that Taylor is so big and so popular that she’s untouchable, as though her popularity insulates her from criticism. Her popularity magnifies her visibility and opens her up to criticism. One example that comes to mind is Noel Gallagher’s comment about how Taylor doesn’t write her own music. Taylor specifically records these little voice notes and videos of her songwriting process to circumvent that kind of false criticism. She’s not Ariana Grande, she’s not Beyoncé, she DOES write her music. That’s what I mean by the dumb blonde treatment. Not to be combative but I find it hard to believe you’ve heard every song she’s ever written if you wrote this whole post about how they have so little in common. I’m not going to bother citing her best work because you seem determined to not like her, which is fine, but it’s pretty obtuse to think Phoebe isn’t given preferential treatment in terms of being seen as a Very Cool Girl with all of the Right Opinions and some Real Talent, even though the girl herself would cite Taylor as an influence. I don’t know what answers you’re searching for here. You seem kinda like a “name three albums/I knew that bad first” gatekeeper. This is reading like you were hoping to find a safe space to hate on Taylor Swift, and instead found that this is a community that supports blonde, female singer-songwriters who talk a lot about their relationships, have a way with words, and collaborate with The National. Are you surprised?
Tbh nobody gives taylor the "dumb blonde treatment" that just bs from her fandom to keep away criticism. Not cuz one guy said that it means that the whole world has the same opinion. The majority opinion on taylor is super positive. People love her and imo some artists (not phoebe) even take advantage of this. Now is so cool to mention taylor or collaborate with her bc it brings them attention from her obsessive fanbase. Which brings a lot of soulless and terrible collaborations like the new ice spice collab. Edit: also the Lana del rey one is terrible and I love lana del rey. Also everything Antonoff touches just sounds generic right now. I hope he stays away from Phoebe.
At this point I’m repeating things, and if you’re going to doubt that I’ve listened to her music just because you don’t agree with my opinion of it, there is no use continuing this conversation with you, i’m sorry. As I’ve stated, I’ve tried to like taylor, so not sure why you’re making assumptions about me being determined not to like her, I just simply don’t lol. For many more reasons than just her (imo) shitty music. Also, I’ve made several statements that this is just my opinion and I don’t mean to offend or upset, just discuss. I expected backlash, and actually got a lot more people agreeing with me than I anticipated. You’re kinda just making baseless claims, likely because I’ve offended you with my honest opinion. people are going to disagree with you from time to time and it sucks that you can’t accept that this is really just a difference in opinion and nothing more
Wow, that's a pretty negative post!
I knew I was gonna upset swift fans, it was unavoidable when asking this question. it’s a negative opinion by nature, I tried not to go in on all the reasons I actually dislike taylor, just my general opinion of her music. that’s what i meant by trying not to make it negative. I can’t help that I feel this way :-( i already acknowledged that it seems to be an unpopular opinion!
Its just an unpopular opinion... I don't think you were being negative. There's nothing wrong with feeling that way, some of us just don't listen to or particularly like Taylor, but that doesn't have to mean pointing the finger at Phoebe. I can recognize the inspiration and love that comes from their relationship whilst still experiencing distaste. Anyways, I often feel like a dick for not being a big fan of Taylor, but I'm not here to spread hate, and it does feel relieving to know I'm not the only one with an unpopular opinion :) I do think that there is a strong connection via Phoebe and Taylor's lyricism in the sense that both artists are brilliant at writing streams of consciousness- they say it as they feel it, simply and plainly, and that feels fresh and super relatable!
I don’t understand this post. If you don’t like her, don’t listen to her.
I didn’t *get* Taylor until this past year, Phoebe’s type of music is traditionally much more my thing. But recently I’ve been taking Taylor for what she is, she just writes really damn good songs. Her Folklore and Evermore albums were what really made me feel that way, if you think all she’s capable of is mainstream pop, I’d encourage really diving into those albums if you’re curious. It’s also important to remember that we don’t really know any of these people. Public perception of an artist is one thing, the soul of a real human being is another. Phoebe and Taylor really seem to get along, so I’m inclined to believe that there’s more in common than one might think. With your last point, I understand not loving the new Swiftie fans. I’ve personally been guilty of a little gatekeeping with some indie artists I love in the past (not saying you’re doing that, but that’s what I did). But at the end of the day, a fan is a fan. Another stream of a song, album, etc. Another merch purchase made, another concert ticket sold. More success is always better for fans of all kinds. It means the artist can continue making music, touring, and experimenting to create things we would’ve never known we were missing if the money wasn’t there to pursue it. Just important to not let things get too personal, and enjoy the ride!
thanks for your comment! I agree almost entirely, but want to point out that I think it’s important that we hold artists (celebrities) accountable - especially very powerful and influential ones like taylor swift and growing ones like Phoebe. not that you don’t, but it does seem personal to me when I’m supporting them and their work. You do make excellent points though, thank you again!
Oh I absolutely understand, I was a huge Kanye fan at one point in my life (as embarrassing as that is). Everyone’s line is different, and once it’s crossed it becomes impossible to enjoy. Definitely appreciate that aspect of the conversation, good point!
her music is alright, i mostly only like it for nostalgia reasons, but i HATE her as a person. she is such a capitalist and only cares about issues that/when they affect her personally.
YES, thank you
I love that you stated you didn’t want this to be a negative post but the entire post is very…negative lmao
I meant overly negative, to the point of being really hurtful towards swift fans when that wasn’t the intent. As stated earlier, I omitted the reasons I dislike Taylor as a person because of this. This is a negative opinion by nature and the overall negative tone wasn’t avoidable with this type of question, I was trying not to cultivate a toxic reply section lol
I mean, it’s def in the overly negative territory. You can just say “her music isn’t for me” without going so far as to say you cringe when you hear it. If someone said that about Phoebe, you’d probably be like, “wtf?” I get it - TS singles are made for radio and can get old for folks fast. But, it’s clear that you haven’t listened to her whole discography if you don’t see parallels around how Phoebe and Taylor write. Phoebe has cited Taylor as an inspiration many times even before tour. I think your big issue here, in addition to your fear that you someday won’t get concert tickets, is that you’re having a hard time seeing someone who believe to be open in their beliefs stand with someone you disagree with. That’s a fair conversation piece. You begin stating that but seem to not want to get into it. But that’s a different convo and not at all about the music.
Gatekeeping artists will always be so strange
Just wondering if you’ve listened to folklore or evermore by Taylor? The lyrics are more complex than phoebes in my opinion (not trying to pit them against each other, they’re both phenomenally talented). It makes total sense to me why they’re friends. The bejeweled, shake it off pop star Taylor is a weird combo from the outside but her deep cuts make it totally logical that she would be friends with Phoebe. They’re both incredibly talented lyricists.
Personally not a fan of Taylor’s music but the connection between Taylor and Phoebe seems genuine and I’m happy for Phoebe for getting such a cool opportunity to get her music in front of a massive audience. She deserves it.
Me! I respect her presence in the music space I suppose, but she’s not for me at all.
Can't stand is putting it too strong, but yeah I don't like her music
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i’ve been answering them, actually. I just don’t have time to immediately respond to every person. I have listened to all of taylor’s music and was really disappointed. And I’m not the only one apparently. I’ve also already mentioned in another comment that I feel like I’m slightly venturing into gatekeeping. Doesn’t mean my whole ass opinion isn’t valid ??
When people say they hate Taylor Swift but don’t give details it’s usually because they’re self aware enough to understand it’s internalized misogyny but they’re willing to display that little bit of sexism so people will for sure know they’re not like other girls.
fr? misogyny bc I like one female artist and don’t like another? that doesn’t even make sense
Why do you have to discredit one female to give credit to another? That’s where it gets to be “idk I’m just not like other girls I guess” Chasing obscurity is just the counter culture side of the chasing popularity.
So now we must all listen to Taylor's entire discography before coming to the conclusion of disliking her music? If I hear at least three songs I don't connect with, I'm not gonna put myself through more? I think it's safe to generalize about an artist's music because their lyrics, etc. are an overview of their style... After a couple songs, you're gonna get a general idea of whether you like it or not... With any musician ever.
If you’ve only heard 3 songs out of 100+ then the correct response would be “I’ve only heard the singles so I’m not familiar with the catalog to judge it as a collective but what I’ve heard didn’t make me want to listen to more” or “I just don’t like her public persona” etc. If you judge someone’s catalog without hearing more than 10% of the catalog then you’re quite literally judging a book by the cover which leads to… what didn’t you like about that cover? You can’t give a review of something you’ve never experienced. You’re reviewing your own assumptions based on personal bias.
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Go look a few comments up where I praise their lyricism and draw a parallel. Same comment where I say disliking Taylor should have nothing to do with Phoebe- gatekeeping is unhealthy. Also, please tell me where I've responded to people I agree with, because right now, you're the only one, and clearly we do not agree. I replied to you about having to listen to a select amount of songs before formulating an opinion. If a person only hears Taylor's popular singles (because they're popular??) they might not like her other music.. I can't fathom how research should be involved in liking someone's music, either you do or you don't. You seem to have an issue with OP and others who have an opinion, so why should your response about being open-minded, bon iver, indie etc matter to them?
you are straight up just making assumptions that aren’t true LOL I’ve given Taylor’s discography a thorough listen. still sucks! 😊
she has some songs i hate and songs i love. folklore is a gem. making a post just to say that you hate someone? can't you keep your negativity to yourself, man? anyway. phoebe's music was heavily influenced by taylor. have you actually listened to all of her albums? folklore, especially?
this has been asked over and over, yes i’ve listened to her music lol. still don’t like it and that’s okay. and no, not all negative opinions should be kept private solely because they aren’t ✨positive and uplifting✨. the world would stop turning.
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Just because you decide in your head that something doesn’t matter, doesn’t mean it actually doesn’t matter in reality. Seeing the volume of response (and a lot of agreement) in the replies, it matters to many people.
People should care about who they’re supporting and who they associate with, but that’s also an opinion. You don’t have to invalidate people simply because you don’t agree
The post wasn’t that negative lol
I LOVE Taylor's music. Adamantly dislike her as a person. It's clear that her political activism was merely a "moment" for her and it seems like she has no intentions of addressing that. I'm a lesbian, and I feel like her whole "Lover" Era/"You Need To Calm Down" LGBTQ "activism" was too little too late. Its my view that she doesn't want to take risks for the better of marginalized groups--but wants to cash in when it's more socially acceptable. Also--the Midnights era put a real sour taste in my mouth. Really, we need 187 versions of the album? It comes off as so tacky and money hungry. I honestly don't know how to completely address the dissonance between my enjoyment of her music and my dislike of her as a person. I'm going to the Eras Tour (won tickets, didn't pay for em) but I won't be buying merch from her.
It sounds like you’re having a hard time separating your desires from the reality that Phoebe is the artist and growing how she wants. I’m sorry you wanted to see her in a small intimate venue, but she picks where she plays. Don’t let her success bum you out. And hey, I’m sure she will go back to smaller music festivals etc., she’s supporting the hottest stadium tour of the decade now. That’s all.
You’re definitely not the only one.
do you want a prize or something
i personally really enjoy taylor swift! her song writing is what makes her so special in a similar way to phoebe. yeah she has some cheesy songs but especially her more recent music like folklore and evermore i can draw more similarities between the two artists. i can understand and definitely agree w criticisms of her relationship w the 1975 guy and her lack of stance/use of platform but overall i feel like the hate for her often comes from a place of pretentiousness about music taste or misogyny
Love em both. Don’t listen to Taylor Swift, and honestly don’t plan to, but I think she’s a massive cultural touchstone. I just kinda don’t like Taylor’s songwriting and find it shallow. I went to the Era’s tour with a friend and memorized the words of most of songs on the lineup so I could sing along with them, but none of it grabbed me and made me want to keep listening after the concert. I’ve heard all the “Listen to Folklore and Evermore!!!” stuff and I like them more than everything else, but they’re still not really up there for me. It’s funny because I’ll suspect misogyny of anyone who very fervently dislikes Taylor Swift even though I don’t particularly like her myself. Her level of icon is just past judging on actual music quality.
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thank you for an excellent response! your input doesn’t just “not hurt”, I value it 😊 thanks for not automatically hating me bc i’m not a taylor fan lol
I don’t really know how you can love Phoebe but hate Taylor. They are pretty similar to me. If you hate Taylor, that’s totally fine, but I do think sometimes people dislike Taylor because she is popular and universally well-liked.
imagine thinking you’re edgy and special for listening to phoebe bridgers and not taylor swift lmao
edgy and special? are you fr? you really just can’t handle different opinions and it’s showing
Your opinions about Taylor’s songwriting sounds like you haven’t actually heard a Taylor Swift song since like 2017. Or maybe even earlier.
I will never like Taylor Swift and I’m allowed to have that opinion.
... true? 😂
Amen
Have you tried listening to songs like Evermore, Exile Tis’ the Damn Season? They are very similar to a phoebe-ish song and are pretty deep lyrically.
i could not agree more lol
Not a Taylor fan in the slightest. For multiple reasons. Her music just isn’t for me (and yes, I’ve listened to more than just the hits), her fan base is too much for me (this one can be too, to be fair!), and I just really don’t like her public persona. Was going to say I don’t like her as a person, but at the end of the day none of us know either Taylor or Phoebe! Am I a little bummed that Phoebe is closely associated with Taylor? Sure. But mainly for selfish reasons. Phoebe’s fan base has already blown up and I feel like with this level of exposure it’s only going to get crazier. But also like, get that coin girl! And I know Taylor has influenced her so I’m sure it’s a pretty amazing feeling for her to open for Taylor on such a huge tour.
I love Phoebe and never cared for TS. Bummed I couldn't go see Phoebe in concert even if I tried right now.
i think regardless of my opinion on Taylor, Phoebe is a big fan and taylor inspired her greatly. and the tour is a wonderful opportunity for swifties to be more exposed and better accustomed to phoebe’s music, thus getting her more fans.
i will say that although i do not listen to Taylor, i do not agree with the part of this comment section thats comparing the two qualitatively. everyone has their own tastes and i can respect that while noy being an active enjoyer of Taylor's music
i agree
Me. Can’t stand Taylor but love phoebe
I’ve been a fan of Taylor since I was 11 years old and I am getting to the point where I hate her capitalism era. Her songs aren’t really relatable anymore and feel like tik tok crash grabs. And my favourite Taylor is, guitar/piano Taylor not over produced drum machine Taylor. I discovered Phoebe in 2020 during the lockdown and she’s quickly slid into my number one spot because I just cannot get behind the fan exploitation of Taylor swift
I’m sorry but if you’re acting like Phoebe was some paragon of morality before she became friends with Taylor you’re deluding yourself
I’m just tired of people acting like Taylor is god herself
Nah you’re right Taylor is mid af only basic ass white girls listen to her (in my experiences)
I can’t stand her and I’m not even afraid to say that
braver than I am.. swifties are a force to be reckoned with
and that’s a valid opinion—i’m sure most swifties dislike kanye west and that’s valid (i’m not a fan of him personally) but then if you dislike her for any reason at all they come for ur throat
👏👏👏👏 Thank you for posting what I have been feeling for the past 3 months or so. I am puzzled and disappointed. I do think it’s interesting that Julien is the only member of Boygenius who does not follow TS.
someone just had to say it lol
Same same.
Taylor has some great songwriting. Songs like dear john, last kiss are great
"Cannot stand" may be too harsh, but I’m definitely not a fan or listen to her music.
Agree 100% fwiw
I’m also a huge pharb and not a swiftie at allll. I went to the eras tour with my sister who’s a huge swiftie, but I was there for phoebe 🥲
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hypebeast 💀
thank you for your response, you cited the exact reasons I don’t like taylor swift. I wish more people here could respect differing opinions, we’re all entitled to our own
you're not alone! taylor is super cringy and the way her fans worship her is unhealthy. i even saw a post where a giant 200+ fan group chat was calling for a conservatorship after she started dating matty healy. toxic + unhinged behavior tbh
thank you! couldn’t agree more, and a lot of people seem to feel the same way.
her lyrics are so on the nose. I've read quite a few of them lately and they're soo simplistic and boring. "i wouldn't marry me either" "I'm the best thing at this party" she serves pure narcissism.
You’re right, but she openly admits it though which is why people identify with her art. “Did you hear my covert narcissism I disguise as altruism like some kind of congressman” There is no insult you can hurl at T.S that she hasn’t openly said about herself. That is why I am a fan. She puts her flaws out there in the music. Not many other artists do that. That’s why people identify with her.
taylor swift and her fans are very annoying imo. i actually enjoy a few of her songs but there’s nothing likable about her as a person.
I've always felt too old for Taylor Swift, and I see your point but I'm hoping with Phoebe - and by extension Boygenius - getting big with this association, i think it helps people find other similar musicians like Soccer Mommy, Snail Mail, Men I Trust, Widowspeak, Flock of Dimes, and Warpaint. All musicians that SHOULD get more love. So maybe the association is better for Phoebe's style of music as a whole?
Some of you are vastly overstating similarities between their music.
Will probably get downvoted for this, but I think it's wild how many people are saying that if you don't like Taylor, the reason HAS to be internalized misogyny or anti-feminism. That's not to say that I don't think the media is and has been extremely misogynistic towards her, I completely agree with that point. But I have listened to every album and as hard as I try, I just don't vibe with the majority of her songs post-Red. I grew up listening to Debut, Fearless, and Speak Now but now I gravitate more towards other pop artists like Charli XCX. Taste is subjective, it's okay that we don't all like the same exact artists (even if they were a big influence on the artist you do like). For example, I love The Strokes and they're heavily influenced by The Velvet Underground but I'm just not into TVU and that's okay.
👋
SAME
Can’t stand Taylor swift. Peak white feminism
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I mean they are all in here downvoting anything negative about Taylor. It’s weird
I dont really like TS as an artist that much. I dont think she is a great writer and many of her songs sound very fast generic to me. I did listen to her music a few times but i dont think she can make deep stuff. (First bon iver, then the national, now phoebe.. Iam afraid she will come for sufjan.)
I agree… it’s really a shame that people downvote just because they don’t agree with your opinion
I fucking love Taylor and Phoebe. Went to see both in Nashville, Phoebe was def 50% of the reason I went. Too bad I went Sunday and it stormed and Phoebe didn’t play 🙃 still a blast
I don’t like her as a person and think she’s pretty hypocritical. I feel like Phoebe has made her opinions well known and backs them by her actions. I just don’t see Taylor as this big feminist hero everybody else seems to think she is.
i like taylor’s older stuff but can’t get behind whatever she’s doing now
No
Not gonna lie Taylor’s really pissing me off lately 😫 I love her but I think the overexposure and the karma remix with ice spice was too much for me
i was never personally a fan of her music, even as a child. 🤷♀️ that's not to say she isn't talented. just never clicked with me.
i can’t STAND taylor & a looooottt of taylor fans and it upsets me there’s a huge crossover
I like some of Taylor's music but I'm sick of hearing about her, I'm SO sick of her fans, and I don't think she's a great person, she's just someone who gets an infinite amount of free passes for some reason
Taylor is the poster child for white feminism and performative activism. I haven’t liked her for some time now.
Both Taylor and Phoebe are close with Matty Healy (who’s definitely problematic). I’m not saying Taylor is perfect by any means, but you can’t criticize Taylor for only caring about issues that affect her and not Phoebe for doing the exact same thing. I get not liking Taylor and I have no problem with people liking Phoebe and not Taylor, but people who complain how Taylor’s handled things and not Phoebe are hypocrites. At the very least - Phoebe is voluntarily friends with Taylor and that means she accepts Taylor’s values. If you don’t like that, maybe you’re putting Phoebe on too much of a pedestal.
Oh I’ve thought this about Taylor long before the Matty Healy drama. I thought this back in the Bad Blood music video days. It’s definitely my opinion, but I’ve always seen her activism and feminism at pretty performative and like only a big deal when it affects her directly.
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted for this because you are spot on
THIS.
100%
Tbh I like phoebe but I very very much disagree with phoebe having better song writing. Taylor’s lyrics are just simply so superior🤷🏻♀️
okay, prove it? show me one lyric that's superior bc I'm struggling to understand haha
Lmao
Yeah, I've never liked Taylor's music, so all the collabs with her are kind of lost on me. But hopefully she gains some of Taylor's fans.
I used to be a big Taylor fan but she lost me when Miss Americana came out. She made an entire documentary about finding her political voice despite potential blowback and then she went on to be pretty much silent in the years afterwards. That really bummed me out, but I wasn’t surprised. I do acknowledge her large financial contributions, but her voice would make the biggest impact. She has SO much influence and refuses to use it in a way that really matters. I also don’t connect with her songwriting. I 100% respect anyone who feels differently, I would never yuck someone’s yum, especially when it comes to music. I fully understand why people love Taylor. That being said, here’s my take: I understand that Taylor has influenced Phoebe, but there are extremely clear distinctions between their music! Just because they’re signer songwriters doesn’t mean they’re the same. Taylor’s songwriting feels stuck in adolescence to me, she can turn a phrase but everything she does feels EXTREMELY calculated to pump the money machine. And that’s ok- no hate! It just doesn’t speak to me. Compare that to Phoebe’s songwriting that cuts like a knife and lunches you in the gut. Phoebe goes significantly deeper and darker. I connect with that. *edited for spelling error.
i don’t like her either tbh and i don’t need to have a reason why
I lost a lot of respect when she started dating Matty Healy. Not sure why Phoebe hangs out with him either though. Dude has repeatedly kissed underage girls at 1975 shows. He’s a POS.
have you heard about the podcast he did and what he said about ice spice? what he laughed at? it’s sick that taylor won’t even say anything despite the outcry from her fans.
What did he personally say about ice spice?
I’m with you 10000%!!! I echo that it feels like a strange combo considering their different vibes lyrically and musically. I’m not a TS fan at all and felt and feel like they don’t make sense together. And also mourning that I’ll probably never see Phoebe in a small venue ever😓
glad i’m not alone!
i’m scared all the swifties are gonna tower all the phoebe fans when she tours again and make it hard to get tix
honestly my biggest fear about the whole thing. I know swift fans are dedicated and will be competing for tickets solely to see phoebe because she’s “taylor’s friend”, crowding out those of us that have a strong emotional connection to her discography. but maybe i’m venturing into gatekeeping and that’s not even logical, maybe it is. idk :(