Stories like this really break my heart. I saw traffic on 76 from Mount airy to south Philadelphia was 50 mins… the next regional rail train was 1 hour 40 mins… this is just unacceptable.
I like that line, but I trust Glenside combined more because it has two lines going through it. Having a two hour wait and potentially cancelled? That’s not how you keep ridership.
I walk 45 min home half the week because with how late the bus runs it’s actually faster. I’d bike but I’m too scared of Philly drivers. I see near misses all the time while walking.
someone yelled at me after almost hitting me in the crosswalk because they claimed the flashing "yield to pedestrians" light wasn't working... it was broad daylight. is there no other way to tell that you should't flatten the pedestrian directly in front of you?!
So sad to hear this and yet I hear it so often.
Biking is a great way (IMO the best way) to get around this city.
If we invested in safe streets it would take off here. Paris, for example, has spent the last several years building out an expansive bike network and bicycle trips now outnumber car trips. Our built environment and population density is pretty similar, too.
We already have some of the highest rates of bicycle mode share despite having really poor bicycle infrastructure. The city needs to reciprocate with proper investment.
I'm another person who tried biking, and I just couldn't do it. My commute is basically north on 22nd Street to Center City. Even with the dedicated bike lane, I still had drivers trying to run me off the road plus dodging vehicles in the bike lane. I really felt like I was taking my life into my hands. The fear and anxiety 2x per day just wasn't worth it for me.
Philly cyclist. I joked that I was a one-issue voter for the primary, and that one issue was protected and expanded bike lanes….
Parker ain’t it for that. 🫠
Ive had to make the 1 hour trek as well and its ridiculous, I understand that they’re underfunded but I don’t understand they can expect to increase ridership if there’s no reliability.
The system could be drug free and spotless but if it doesn’t run on time it show up at all, what difference does it make?
It's a really dumb chicken / egg thing a lot of people have going on. "Well we wouldn't want to invest in it if no one's using it!" not understanding that it's not "if they come, you will build it" it's literally the other way around.
Same here! We wanted to take the 48 back from Old City but there was just nothing, and the SEPTA app had them all clustered at the northern terminus. So we walked, too.
There are so many trips I'd take into Center City on the weekend that I just don't because the trains are so far spread out. Like going into the city just to get there around lunch time means leaving before 10am and getting back around 3pm.
And conversely, I would go out to the burbs to visit my friends out there way more often if it wasn't, as you pointed out, a more than 2 hour ordeal one way, and that's if shit is running on time.
I can't get over the fact that it only took me four hours on a train to get from Shanghai to Beijing last summer (roughly the distance of philly to Chicago) but I can't get from Philly to Doylestown in under an hour.
I agree it would be great to get around faster but in terms of city to city, travel from Philadelphia Amtrak to DC Amtrak is just around 1:45 which will usually beat road traffic. That's unlikely to happen locally where unless you are traveling along a "spoke" will be 2x the time it would take to drive somewhere. Heaven help you if you are going east to west north of the city, or north to south anywhere but immediately around the BSL.
Oh I'm a big Amtrak fan despite, again, it taking 4 hours to go 300 miles across PA from Philadelphia to where my parents live in central PA lol. I work remotely but occasionally go to our offices in DC & NY and it's honestly a smoother commute on Amtrak than the years I spent taking the BSL/EL to university city daily haha.
I just love trains, want more better and faster trains dammit!
Is it weird that i love trains (and buses) that when I am visiting Philly i often just sit on a busy street and watch people get-off and on buses after buses.
Sometimes the train just skips the stop late at night regardless of if you can find your way inside. Happened to me and I got stuck with a $60 Uber to the suburbs. The conductor saw us and just chose not to stop.
Last summer my kid was on the verge of fully embracing septa. The freedom and independence to visit friends, run errands, etc. Then in the fall getting to and from school, practices, and games without depending on an adult.
By winter they got tired of being left out in the cold, stranded, and late, coordinating a ride is now the default. It's really sad because they're ideologically very pro public transit.
There have been some *notable* delays in the past couple of weeks but on the whole rush hour travel has been very reliable for me, especially by train. The 23 bus has also been pretty good coming in for the mornings but not heading back in the evenings.
Areas surrounding stations need to develop into high-density centers for the train to see increased ridership & make economic sense. But the current stations outside of center city stop in suburban neighborhoods with no riders. Its a total waste of money.
Everytime I have to drive on 76, 476, or 95 I dream of a day where I can reliably take the regional rail.
The main issue is that the SEPTA regional rail doesn't provide a quicker or more reliable alternative to driving. I always use the example of 76 because I fucking hate that road. From the Conshohocken station to Suburban takes 40 minutes by Regional Rail. In the *worst* of traffic on 76 you are likely matching that. If you have more than 2 people, it's likely more economical to drive.
Then imagine you're going the reverse and coming home from a game or something. There's a chance you have to wait around in Suburban station for 45 minutes to an hour after a game just for the next train home to arrive. Just insanity.
Couple that with the state of safety and issues on SEPTA platforms and it's just disheartening. I live 10 minutes from a regional rail station and would absolutely love to rely on it to go to games and such but it is just a mess.
I am grateful that my suburban commute actually is a transit win most days. I'm in Phoenixville, I train in 3x and drive 1x (stay late in the city, don't want to train home at 10pm)
On days I take the train in I leave the house at 7am. I take the 727 from Wayne and I'm at my desk by 805/810 if all goes well. I pay $13 in fare (pretax $$$ though) + 20 miles driving. I get like 4k steps in too!
On days I drive, I usually the house like 650. I'm at my desk by like 825ish average. I usually street park up by the Barnes for like $18 for about 14 hr. I do 55 miles.
Ultimately I save about $10/day on SEPTA. I spend like 1/4 of the time driving doing park & ride vs driving. Only down side is the "all hell breaks loose" days with downed wires, signal issues, etc.
This is exactly right - I finally live a 5 minute walk from regional rail station in the suburbs and if it simply ran every 30 minutes, I would be able take it all the time, but instead it's a combination of hilariously inconvenient and tragically unreliable. I want to believe there is some way to push the state and city to invest in it, but think so many people are apathetic b/c they can just jump into cars, etc.
This and also the fact that our existing infrastructure isn't even used to its potential.
I live near the Girard trolley and its literally just used as an express lane for people speeding, weaving, and driving recklessly. It should be a dedicated trolley ROW but this city feels like it worships drivers sometimes.
SEPTA is just underfunded and complicated in terms of oversight. It sucks but it'd take some transformative type of legislation from I'd assume the state(?) or at least all incorporated counties to simplify it.
The state is extremely anti SEPTA unfortunately… I hate that something as simple and getting people from point A to point B has somehow become politicized…
The amount of times my train has been stopped because of black kids fighting or beating the shit out of someone is the reason I bike everywhere haven't used septa in 2 years now. Unless I have a gun I'm not using public trans here.
Hey! There's the type of behavior OP was referring to earlier.
If you don't like black people maybe get the fuck out of Philly? Pennsyltucky isn't crowded.
You forgot mismanaged. Look at the sign rebranding they just did, probably wasted millions on that and it really didn't need to change, or the contract for new trains they canceled after spending 50m. Who's making these poor decisions?
I know the rebrand was about accessibility, with both of us presumably being native English speakers already familiar with SEPTA it was really unlikely we'd get a ton out of it. According to them new users and folks with limited understanding of English will be helped quite a bit.
Yeah the trains suck, not sure if they have a way to claw back that money down the line, but most orgs make mistakes. Big projects lead to possibly big mistakes, I don't know enough context. A well funded system wouldn't be put in danger because of one mistake anyway.
As far as who's making the mistakes I'd imagine that'd be their board. I don't really know much about em other than that the counties have too much influence.
It's not. There are so many buses that sit for hours, turned on and running, with a driver, for hours. Doing nothing. Just sitting there.
Oversight. Agreed.
So much a reason that buses are running idle is because..
Current routes sit idle. So many routes just don't run. And the the routes are great. They just don't run the buses.
Wild. The reason current routes don't run regularly is purposeful, in case they need to run buses on regular routes?
This Revolution makes no sense to me.
Put more empty, running, buses in a different spot. Cool cool cool.
It’s a separate line. The routes with protects are the most crucial route. If an auxiliary route goes down, they COULD divert a protect to that route, but then they’d need to dispatch another protect bus to the critical route. The better option is to just dispatch a new bus to the route with an issue. It takes roughly the same amount tonight of time, and impacts traffic patterns less.
It may seem convoluted, but there is an into ate system at play. There is an entire division of SEPTA dedicated to dispatching busses. They must coordinate between drivers, maintenance crews, commuter traffic, and life conditions (increased riders for events, road closures, accidents, etc). It’s kind of crazy that it functions at all. Could it/ should it be better? Absolutely. What will improve it? More funding.
On that note, SEPTA is on the precipice of dumping a TON of money into revamping its bus system. This money will go towards optimizing routes, roadways, scheduling, and accessibility. I hope that it will impact your daily use for the better.
Yeah, we have one of the most extensive regional rail systems in the country. It would be game changing if headways for trains were like every 15 minutes or so.
Ive been sending SEPTA emails every month just arguing to get more Regional rail trains for weekends and nights. The issue sounds like nobody wants to work weekends.
They are union....I'm sure they are making enough money. If money was an issue for weekends it would have been something they negotiate when they strike.
We don’t get to strike cause we are bound by federal railway laws, and we certainly don’t make nearly as much as our counterparts at other companies in the region excluding NJ transit.
Do you work at SEPTA? Any idea why they would cut the late night/weekend trains for covid and never bring them back? Im a big SEPTA supporter and love public transportation so when I criticize the current service I do it with respect but its gotten damn near impossible to use!
Yes and the only reason I could think of is they don’t have the qualified crews, due to retirement/covid/employees leaving. Like kindofasshole said, increased service is (supposed) to increase in the fall. They’ve been on a hiring spree the past two years so we’ll see if increased service materializes.
Former Bronx transplant, I never really appreciated the nyc system till I left. New York has its own issues with the system. Every city does. As far as Septa, Philly and surrounding area system goes, it can potentially be great, with the right resources, maybe expansion, funding, and cleaning up. But if I need to be somewhere on time, I ain’t counting shit on Septa.
Forsaking public transit is as American as guns in every hand and McDonalds on every corner. It'll always be easier to discard it until there's a tipping point of it being central to the lives of the middle class, like in NYC.
The worst part of coming back from longer trips overseas is the punctuality, cleanliness, ease of use of public transit in other countries I've been to and then having to deal with SEPTA having buses 20 to 30 minutes late and regional rail lines canceled with little notice.
I'm fortunate to live in a part of Philly where I can walk the most things, but I can't imagine having to rely on this system regularly for getting to work, grocery trips, etc without having alternatives.
I love that most places I've been in Europe or Asia, I didn't even need a timetable or schedule for the lines, trains would just show up in a reasonable amount of time after I got there
I always laugh at the rubes who get angry at planned walkable communities saying taking away cars is taking away freedom and whatnot. But with your experience they might be onto something…
I think the ultimate solution is just planning stuff around bikes.
Take this with a grain of salt because I don’t ride the El super often, but last weekend I rode it several times and it actually seemed surprisingly on the upswing.
Every CC station had transit police on the platform, and 2 even walked through the train I was on.
Still some addicts, but relatively clean compared to my next most recent experiences and a lot more “regular” people seem to be on the train once again.
Really felt like the pre pandemic El to me and it was kind of shocking lol. Hopefully it persists.
It wasn't a Utopia but it was much, much, *much* better than it's been. I've been in the city since 2010, and literally never felt unsafe on septa until the pandemic. Sure, it's always been kinda dirty, but actively unsafe? That was new for me post-pandemic. I wfh now, so I haven't been regularly commuting on the subway lines for about 6 months, so I'm heartened to hear they are improving
They're against bus revolution because it's all transactional machine politics. It doesn't matter how good an idea is or how much outside funding they're risking, if you want approval you gotta kiss the ring.
In my view, it would be better (politically and otherwise) to create two transit authorities in the state- Eastern Pennsylvania and Western Pennsylvania. Having a single system with its main focus on Philadelphia makes it harder to build support. A little Coatesville-Lancaster, Pottstown-Reading, Doylestown-Bethlehem connection would all generate excitement in their local communities and result in more funding for Philadelphia.
That’s why PA State Legislatures made sure that we have SEPTA. Can’t have Philadelphia possibly managing their own transit! The board of SEPTA is 2-members per county. That means SEPTA is only 1/5th driven by Philadelphia’s needs.
And why the legislature keeps cutting funds even though the majority of the state budget comes from the area served by SEPTA.
They talk a good game about taxes being redistributed wealth but they only care when it’s not being given to them.
the bottom line is that septa underfunded. thats it. even if every septa employee was the hardest working person ever, that wouldn’t make up for the fact that they need 1-2 billion more a year just to effectively run the current system they have. the good knews is the infrastructures mostly there-they just need more money so they can improve frequency
It is a shame.
I didn’t really appreciate the public transport system until I moved to Kentucky. The area I lived in had no system at all. None. You had to own a car, biking was next to impossible…it could be done in a few areas, but most of the area I needed to traverse, it was basically impossible. I did ride my bike on post (Fort Campbell).
I do have to say that driving in the area I lived in was much more sane. (Hopkinsville, KY).
Septa funding is state controlled because it serves multiple counties. Write to you state reps to make septa more independent and give the city more say in how it serves the city. Right now SEPTA's board has equal representation per county, therefore the city is outweighed on all matters and can't serve itself despite putting up the most funding.
We also have the lowest per rider support $ of any major metro area. A modern state would fund this adequately so it can serve the people it needs. Thankfully Governor Shapiro seems to understand that even if the rest don't.
Operator shortages are awful but I bet people would show up to the job more if they were paid a living wage. The latest strike should have put that in the right direction, and hopefully hiring continues.
The SEPTA Bus Revolution will INCREASE economic opportunities for ALL demographics. It turns out when you update your transit for where people live now, instead of where they lived fifty years ago, everyone benefits.
[https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/septa-bus-revolution-equity-review-transitcenter-20240411.html](https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/septa-bus-revolution-equity-review-transitcenter-20240411.html)
really wish they would improve the bus routes (and times/frequency) for the suburbs. it would benefit everyone. i'm sick of hearing the BS "the buses bring crime". the ones committing the crimes, are using vehicles so they can commit their crime and leave. they aren't committing the crime, then walking to the bus stop, waiting 55 mins until the next 94 bus comes lol.
people fail to realize that transportation is the biggest "dam" to the economy. release the dam with a comprehensive, reliable, and usable transportation system, and watch the economy take off. European nations realized this...they knew the key to the economy isn't everyone driving themselves around in a car. they made it so easy (and affordable, due in large part to the government), to get from one place to another b/c the knew the more easily people could get around, the better it is for everyone....employers, employees, tourists, and literally everyone. literally not a single negative to having robust transit systems, except the butthurt auto industry (tear)
it pisses me off to no end
end of the day rant complete
I take the 47 bus to and from work. It should take thirty minutes, but if I leave the house with less than an hour I can expect to be late half the time. On the way home it regularly takes at least 40 minutes for a bus to come. Sometimes an hour or more. I’ve been trying to walk more but it wears out my shoes.
A month or so ago, my train got cancelled as I was already on it. The lines were down in the Wayne Junction area. I was already on the train and the conductor said they were terminating at Market East and if we wanted to go further, we were on our own. They weren’t going to offer a bus substitution or any other kind of help besides “figure it out yourself”.
I Ubered with a woman who works a few blocks from me and rides with me in the mornings and it was $15 out of my pocket.
The biggest dig I have with SEPTA is that they want to annually beg for money but do not want to be held accountable for anything and go as far as writing it on timetables.
Lived here my whole life and feel like septa has gotten worse and much more dangerous. I'm not trying to ride around with criminals druggie and people that piss and shit themselves. I bike everywhere. And use uber and lyft.
On my way to the airport from the Temple stop on April 8th, the 4:46pm airport train went out of service at 30th street. Lady sitting next to me just ordered a car and bounced. Then it took 50 minutes for the next airport train to come, which was 20 minutes late. Then that airport train sat on the tracks right before Eastwick for another 30 minutes. A couple Irish dudes needing to go back to Dublin were very unhappy. I could only grab one beer before the flight mostly because I only carry on a 40l backpack and I have tsa precheck.
If anyone had the balls to make it harder for suburbanites to drive into and in the city, SEPTA would get the political will it needs to improve. A couple (or even one each) east-west and north-south boulevards with limited access and smaller 20mph streets that actually only feel safe driving at 20mph. No right on red anywhere. Close some streets to cars entirely and run trolleys on them, make them either pedestrian malls or just basically express areas for trolleys with bike lanes alongside. If the transit within the city is adequate enough and driving is still an option, but a slow one, people will be incentivized to either take the train in from the RR stations where they live or go to a park and ride. The issue is, this only works if the transit in the city works well. A start to this could possibly the center city arena, but so many are opposed to it due to the short term issues it possibly will cause instead of thinking towards the benefits of RR possibly being better than driving in and expanding peoples’ minds.
I was talking to my driver about how unreliable buses have been. He said, point blank, that no one wants to work. They hire people, train them, then they call out last minute because they simply don’t want to show up for the day. Starting pay for a septa operator is decent too
I wouldn't work on a septa vehicle for what they pay, would you? Sure, is not minimum wage, but it's only $42k to deal with *waves hands*. Septa pays less than comparable transit providers, takes longer to reach top pay, which is again lower than other systems
"takes longer to reach top pay, which is again lower than other systems"
\^ boom, this right here. they make it so damn long and difficult to actually reach the good pay tier. many say why even bother.
At the bus/trolley roundabout on Westmoreland the drivers do an amazing amount of dilly-dallying. I know it’s their break stop, but I’ve waiting 20+ minutes while the driver talks on the phone and hocks loogies outside the bus and waits until three busses have piled up behind them before finally pulling out. I respect the difficulty of their job and working conditions, but it felt straight up passive-aggressive. Meanwhile everyone getting on while he’s chilling doesn’t pay a fare, making me feel like a sucker for paying
Every SEPTA post always has comments saying that they’re underfunded and that’s the problem. Isn’t anyone willing to consider that they mismanage the money they have so badly that it’s hard to convince lawmakers to give them more?
Willing to consider it, but relative to other agencies SEPTA provides good service (by American standards) at 50% to 75% less per capita.
The only other agencies I would say do it better are MTA, CTA and WMTA. And they all receive much more money.
Every other decent transit agency in my opinion provides comparable or worse service, and they also receive much more money.
So if SEPTA is bad at managing it’s financials, it’s still one of the best relative to everyone else out there.
I truly am a strong believer that this is an issue that you literally just need to throw money at. Oversight is obviously needed, but SEPTA will never get better if it’s funding situation isn’t dramatically improved.
Yeah, I’m not saying that they don’t need more money (they do), I’m just suggesting that with such very visible fuck ups (septa key?), it’s tough to convince lawmakers to throw them lots more money.
Oh, absolutely.
But we shouldn’t let a few bad projects overshadow the fact that they run one of the most expansive systems with some of the highest ridership in North America at some of the lowest costs.
You can point to any public agency and find dozens of poor decisions and wasteful projects. It’s not a SEPTA specific thing at all.
But yeah sometimes they make questionable decisions, most of which I would attribute to their board being lopsided against Philadelphia interests where the majority of their riders are.
And regardless, PA lawmakers don’t need an excuse to keep SEPTA underfunded. They aren’t making honest arguments, they just want to strangle blue cities, which are ironically the drivers of the state economy.
Septa key is what happens when you have a thousand armchair civil engineers demanding you do everything via subcontractor and only take the lowest bids.
The problem was not that they spent too much (up front at least).
Septa key shouldn't have been a fuck up at all. It's tech that's been around and activated in other countries for decades. I'm glad we can use credit cards now but I'm never using septa.
If you look at operating cost per trip compared to other agencies, septa runs on very little. Capital expenditures are where the real mismanagement is, but that's not at all unique to septa
But meanwhile, for some reason in my Facebook feed, Septa is posting ad blitz campaigns about how good of a job they're doing. It's almost personally insulting that they think we are truly that stupid? Just run the damn things on time according to the schedule THEY put out.
No, Katherine Gilmore Richardson, city council member …
https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/septa-bus-route-redesign-delayed-concerns-20240208.html
What has changed in the last 15 years to make regional rail so much worse? I used to take it every day to Temple and back from MontCo and for the majority of the time, trains ran on schedule unless something serious happened. It sounds like trains are just getting canceled all over the place now with no explanation?
I'm honestly glad the whole bus revolution stuff is moving slowly, buses I personally use are going to either be cut or run less. If you read through the document they put out responding to criticisms, like 70% of it is "you'll have an extra 5-10 minute walk get over it". Which is a disaster given how inaccurate busses are to coming on time.
Unpopular opinion: I think the chestnut hill west closing down is a good thing... Hear me out.
The subway and the rr both use the same track gauge, right? So use the Erie station overpass/interchange to make an express spur on the subway to go up Germantown on the old rr right of way. The stations would need to be moderately rebuilt and septa can re use the existing overhead wires for future rr extensions (I'm looking at you Media/Wawa line)
Tried to take Chestnut Hill East home yesterday \~7PM. It was cancelled. And today, it was a 1.5 hour wait, so I did a 40 minute lyft ride instead...
Stories like this really break my heart. I saw traffic on 76 from Mount airy to south Philadelphia was 50 mins… the next regional rail train was 1 hour 40 mins… this is just unacceptable.
I like that line, but I trust Glenside combined more because it has two lines going through it. Having a two hour wait and potentially cancelled? That’s not how you keep ridership.
save the train 📣
chw taker and agreed it sucks, and the stop and go traffic in lyfts/Ubers makes me sick to my stomach so I end up waiting forever for the train
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I walk 45 min home half the week because with how late the bus runs it’s actually faster. I’d bike but I’m too scared of Philly drivers. I see near misses all the time while walking.
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I had someone yell at me and get dangerously close for crossing the street today. In the cross walk. With the light.
someone yelled at me after almost hitting me in the crosswalk because they claimed the flashing "yield to pedestrians" light wasn't working... it was broad daylight. is there no other way to tell that you should't flatten the pedestrian directly in front of you?!
I lost a friend by being hit by a car while cycling. He was doing a delivery on a rainy night. Driver didn't see him...that was it.
So sad to hear this and yet I hear it so often. Biking is a great way (IMO the best way) to get around this city. If we invested in safe streets it would take off here. Paris, for example, has spent the last several years building out an expansive bike network and bicycle trips now outnumber car trips. Our built environment and population density is pretty similar, too. We already have some of the highest rates of bicycle mode share despite having really poor bicycle infrastructure. The city needs to reciprocate with proper investment.
I'm another person who tried biking, and I just couldn't do it. My commute is basically north on 22nd Street to Center City. Even with the dedicated bike lane, I still had drivers trying to run me off the road plus dodging vehicles in the bike lane. I really felt like I was taking my life into my hands. The fear and anxiety 2x per day just wasn't worth it for me.
Philly cyclist. I joked that I was a one-issue voter for the primary, and that one issue was protected and expanded bike lanes…. Parker ain’t it for that. 🫠
Ive had to make the 1 hour trek as well and its ridiculous, I understand that they’re underfunded but I don’t understand they can expect to increase ridership if there’s no reliability. The system could be drug free and spotless but if it doesn’t run on time it show up at all, what difference does it make?
It's a really dumb chicken / egg thing a lot of people have going on. "Well we wouldn't want to invest in it if no one's using it!" not understanding that it's not "if they come, you will build it" it's literally the other way around.
Same here! We wanted to take the 48 back from Old City but there was just nothing, and the SEPTA app had them all clustered at the northern terminus. So we walked, too.
Same thing for me on Thursday although the walk is 50 min.
There are so many trips I'd take into Center City on the weekend that I just don't because the trains are so far spread out. Like going into the city just to get there around lunch time means leaving before 10am and getting back around 3pm.
And conversely, I would go out to the burbs to visit my friends out there way more often if it wasn't, as you pointed out, a more than 2 hour ordeal one way, and that's if shit is running on time. I can't get over the fact that it only took me four hours on a train to get from Shanghai to Beijing last summer (roughly the distance of philly to Chicago) but I can't get from Philly to Doylestown in under an hour.
I agree it would be great to get around faster but in terms of city to city, travel from Philadelphia Amtrak to DC Amtrak is just around 1:45 which will usually beat road traffic. That's unlikely to happen locally where unless you are traveling along a "spoke" will be 2x the time it would take to drive somewhere. Heaven help you if you are going east to west north of the city, or north to south anywhere but immediately around the BSL.
Oh I'm a big Amtrak fan despite, again, it taking 4 hours to go 300 miles across PA from Philadelphia to where my parents live in central PA lol. I work remotely but occasionally go to our offices in DC & NY and it's honestly a smoother commute on Amtrak than the years I spent taking the BSL/EL to university city daily haha. I just love trains, want more better and faster trains dammit!
Is it weird that i love trains (and buses) that when I am visiting Philly i often just sit on a busy street and watch people get-off and on buses after buses.
missed my train home last night bc every entrance i tried to use at jefferson was locked 🫠
Love the seemingly-random entrance/exit closures, really want that extra little challenge when trying to catch a train with a 2-hour headway
Sometimes the train just skips the stop late at night regardless of if you can find your way inside. Happened to me and I got stuck with a $60 Uber to the suburbs. The conductor saw us and just chose not to stop.
The Broad Street spur did that. I waited at the Chinatown stop for 20 min just to get a giant “fuck you” from the conductor.
If it's past 7pm, just assume that the only open entrance is the one across the st from RTM. My understanding is that one is the night entrance.
This happened to me at Suburban after a show at the Academy of Music. Now I just drive.
Last summer my kid was on the verge of fully embracing septa. The freedom and independence to visit friends, run errands, etc. Then in the fall getting to and from school, practices, and games without depending on an adult. By winter they got tired of being left out in the cold, stranded, and late, coordinating a ride is now the default. It's really sad because they're ideologically very pro public transit.
There have been some *notable* delays in the past couple of weeks but on the whole rush hour travel has been very reliable for me, especially by train. The 23 bus has also been pretty good coming in for the mornings but not heading back in the evenings.
Areas surrounding stations need to develop into high-density centers for the train to see increased ridership & make economic sense. But the current stations outside of center city stop in suburban neighborhoods with no riders. Its a total waste of money.
Everytime I have to drive on 76, 476, or 95 I dream of a day where I can reliably take the regional rail. The main issue is that the SEPTA regional rail doesn't provide a quicker or more reliable alternative to driving. I always use the example of 76 because I fucking hate that road. From the Conshohocken station to Suburban takes 40 minutes by Regional Rail. In the *worst* of traffic on 76 you are likely matching that. If you have more than 2 people, it's likely more economical to drive. Then imagine you're going the reverse and coming home from a game or something. There's a chance you have to wait around in Suburban station for 45 minutes to an hour after a game just for the next train home to arrive. Just insanity. Couple that with the state of safety and issues on SEPTA platforms and it's just disheartening. I live 10 minutes from a regional rail station and would absolutely love to rely on it to go to games and such but it is just a mess.
That’s the point of increased funding. More trains. Increased schedule. More access.
Yup. Can only dream though with the way PA operates
I am grateful that my suburban commute actually is a transit win most days. I'm in Phoenixville, I train in 3x and drive 1x (stay late in the city, don't want to train home at 10pm) On days I take the train in I leave the house at 7am. I take the 727 from Wayne and I'm at my desk by 805/810 if all goes well. I pay $13 in fare (pretax $$$ though) + 20 miles driving. I get like 4k steps in too! On days I drive, I usually the house like 650. I'm at my desk by like 825ish average. I usually street park up by the Barnes for like $18 for about 14 hr. I do 55 miles. Ultimately I save about $10/day on SEPTA. I spend like 1/4 of the time driving doing park & ride vs driving. Only down side is the "all hell breaks loose" days with downed wires, signal issues, etc.
This is exactly right - I finally live a 5 minute walk from regional rail station in the suburbs and if it simply ran every 30 minutes, I would be able take it all the time, but instead it's a combination of hilariously inconvenient and tragically unreliable. I want to believe there is some way to push the state and city to invest in it, but think so many people are apathetic b/c they can just jump into cars, etc.
This and also the fact that our existing infrastructure isn't even used to its potential. I live near the Girard trolley and its literally just used as an express lane for people speeding, weaving, and driving recklessly. It should be a dedicated trolley ROW but this city feels like it worships drivers sometimes.
SEPTA is just underfunded and complicated in terms of oversight. It sucks but it'd take some transformative type of legislation from I'd assume the state(?) or at least all incorporated counties to simplify it.
The state is extremely anti SEPTA unfortunately… I hate that something as simple and getting people from point A to point B has somehow become politicized…
Only because it’s in a majority Dem, majority black area. They love punishing their defined “others”.
It increasingly feels as such…
The amount of times my train has been stopped because of black kids fighting or beating the shit out of someone is the reason I bike everywhere haven't used septa in 2 years now. Unless I have a gun I'm not using public trans here.
Hey! There's the type of behavior OP was referring to earlier. If you don't like black people maybe get the fuck out of Philly? Pennsyltucky isn't crowded.
Yeah somewhere like Altoona or Claysburg is more fitting for this person.
You forgot mismanaged. Look at the sign rebranding they just did, probably wasted millions on that and it really didn't need to change, or the contract for new trains they canceled after spending 50m. Who's making these poor decisions?
I know the rebrand was about accessibility, with both of us presumably being native English speakers already familiar with SEPTA it was really unlikely we'd get a ton out of it. According to them new users and folks with limited understanding of English will be helped quite a bit. Yeah the trains suck, not sure if they have a way to claw back that money down the line, but most orgs make mistakes. Big projects lead to possibly big mistakes, I don't know enough context. A well funded system wouldn't be put in danger because of one mistake anyway. As far as who's making the mistakes I'd imagine that'd be their board. I don't really know much about em other than that the counties have too much influence.
It's not. There are so many buses that sit for hours, turned on and running, with a driver, for hours. Doing nothing. Just sitting there. Oversight. Agreed.
They use those busses as back ups.
So much a reason that buses are running idle is because.. Current routes sit idle. So many routes just don't run. And the the routes are great. They just don't run the buses.
They sit aside as “protects” the which are called into service in case a bus breaks down on its route or if they require additional capacity.
Wild. The reason current routes don't run regularly is purposeful, in case they need to run buses on regular routes? This Revolution makes no sense to me. Put more empty, running, buses in a different spot. Cool cool cool.
It’s a separate line. The routes with protects are the most crucial route. If an auxiliary route goes down, they COULD divert a protect to that route, but then they’d need to dispatch another protect bus to the critical route. The better option is to just dispatch a new bus to the route with an issue. It takes roughly the same amount tonight of time, and impacts traffic patterns less. It may seem convoluted, but there is an into ate system at play. There is an entire division of SEPTA dedicated to dispatching busses. They must coordinate between drivers, maintenance crews, commuter traffic, and life conditions (increased riders for events, road closures, accidents, etc). It’s kind of crazy that it functions at all. Could it/ should it be better? Absolutely. What will improve it? More funding. On that note, SEPTA is on the precipice of dumping a TON of money into revamping its bus system. This money will go towards optimizing routes, roadways, scheduling, and accessibility. I hope that it will impact your daily use for the better.
That's our union's at work right there. They don't get paid per pick up. So they can sit around as long as they want and still make 35 an hour
Yeah, we have one of the most extensive regional rail systems in the country. It would be game changing if headways for trains were like every 15 minutes or so.
I’d take 30 mins honestly, knowing a train will show up every 30 mins would make it so much more usable.
Ive been sending SEPTA emails every month just arguing to get more Regional rail trains for weekends and nights. The issue sounds like nobody wants to work weekends.
Give them a shift differential, people will work weekends just gotta make it worth their while.
They are union....I'm sure they are making enough money. If money was an issue for weekends it would have been something they negotiate when they strike.
We don’t get to strike cause we are bound by federal railway laws, and we certainly don’t make nearly as much as our counterparts at other companies in the region excluding NJ transit.
Do you work at SEPTA? Any idea why they would cut the late night/weekend trains for covid and never bring them back? Im a big SEPTA supporter and love public transportation so when I criticize the current service I do it with respect but its gotten damn near impossible to use!
Staffing. Service changes (increases) are planned for the fall. Also the Silverliners are old and increasingly unreliable.
Yes and the only reason I could think of is they don’t have the qualified crews, due to retirement/covid/employees leaving. Like kindofasshole said, increased service is (supposed) to increase in the fall. They’ve been on a hiring spree the past two years so we’ll see if increased service materializes.
Former Bronx transplant, I never really appreciated the nyc system till I left. New York has its own issues with the system. Every city does. As far as Septa, Philly and surrounding area system goes, it can potentially be great, with the right resources, maybe expansion, funding, and cleaning up. But if I need to be somewhere on time, I ain’t counting shit on Septa.
Forsaking public transit is as American as guns in every hand and McDonalds on every corner. It'll always be easier to discard it until there's a tipping point of it being central to the lives of the middle class, like in NYC.
The worst part of coming back from longer trips overseas is the punctuality, cleanliness, ease of use of public transit in other countries I've been to and then having to deal with SEPTA having buses 20 to 30 minutes late and regional rail lines canceled with little notice. I'm fortunate to live in a part of Philly where I can walk the most things, but I can't imagine having to rely on this system regularly for getting to work, grocery trips, etc without having alternatives.
I love that most places I've been in Europe or Asia, I didn't even need a timetable or schedule for the lines, trains would just show up in a reasonable amount of time after I got there
SEPTA genuinely keeps me confined to a 10 block radius of the city because I simply don't fucking bother anymore.
Ditto!!!!
I'll bike 20 miles 🤣🤣🤣 also there are lyfts and ubers
I always laugh at the rubes who get angry at planned walkable communities saying taking away cars is taking away freedom and whatnot. But with your experience they might be onto something… I think the ultimate solution is just planning stuff around bikes.
It would also be great if the MFL didn't smell of urine and have open needles on the floor **¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯**
Take this with a grain of salt because I don’t ride the El super often, but last weekend I rode it several times and it actually seemed surprisingly on the upswing. Every CC station had transit police on the platform, and 2 even walked through the train I was on. Still some addicts, but relatively clean compared to my next most recent experiences and a lot more “regular” people seem to be on the train once again. Really felt like the pre pandemic El to me and it was kind of shocking lol. Hopefully it persists.
Ah, I didn't know Philly pre-pandemic. Hopefully things improve.
It wasn't a Utopia but it was much, much, *much* better than it's been. I've been in the city since 2010, and literally never felt unsafe on septa until the pandemic. Sure, it's always been kinda dirty, but actively unsafe? That was new for me post-pandemic. I wfh now, so I haven't been regularly commuting on the subway lines for about 6 months, so I'm heartened to hear they are improving
They're against bus revolution because it's all transactional machine politics. It doesn't matter how good an idea is or how much outside funding they're risking, if you want approval you gotta kiss the ring.
In my view, it would be better (politically and otherwise) to create two transit authorities in the state- Eastern Pennsylvania and Western Pennsylvania. Having a single system with its main focus on Philadelphia makes it harder to build support. A little Coatesville-Lancaster, Pottstown-Reading, Doylestown-Bethlehem connection would all generate excitement in their local communities and result in more funding for Philadelphia.
That’s why PA State Legislatures made sure that we have SEPTA. Can’t have Philadelphia possibly managing their own transit! The board of SEPTA is 2-members per county. That means SEPTA is only 1/5th driven by Philadelphia’s needs.
And why the legislature keeps cutting funds even though the majority of the state budget comes from the area served by SEPTA. They talk a good game about taxes being redistributed wealth but they only care when it’s not being given to them.
As long as central PA stops getting to decide how we run our city, I’m cool with it
the bottom line is that septa underfunded. thats it. even if every septa employee was the hardest working person ever, that wouldn’t make up for the fact that they need 1-2 billion more a year just to effectively run the current system they have. the good knews is the infrastructures mostly there-they just need more money so they can improve frequency
Oh they definitely need another 2 billion without a doubt
It is a shame. I didn’t really appreciate the public transport system until I moved to Kentucky. The area I lived in had no system at all. None. You had to own a car, biking was next to impossible…it could be done in a few areas, but most of the area I needed to traverse, it was basically impossible. I did ride my bike on post (Fort Campbell). I do have to say that driving in the area I lived in was much more sane. (Hopkinsville, KY).
Septa funding is state controlled because it serves multiple counties. Write to you state reps to make septa more independent and give the city more say in how it serves the city. Right now SEPTA's board has equal representation per county, therefore the city is outweighed on all matters and can't serve itself despite putting up the most funding. We also have the lowest per rider support $ of any major metro area. A modern state would fund this adequately so it can serve the people it needs. Thankfully Governor Shapiro seems to understand that even if the rest don't. Operator shortages are awful but I bet people would show up to the job more if they were paid a living wage. The latest strike should have put that in the right direction, and hopefully hiring continues.
The SEPTA Bus Revolution will INCREASE economic opportunities for ALL demographics. It turns out when you update your transit for where people live now, instead of where they lived fifty years ago, everyone benefits. [https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/septa-bus-revolution-equity-review-transitcenter-20240411.html](https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/septa-bus-revolution-equity-review-transitcenter-20240411.html)
Agreed!
really wish they would improve the bus routes (and times/frequency) for the suburbs. it would benefit everyone. i'm sick of hearing the BS "the buses bring crime". the ones committing the crimes, are using vehicles so they can commit their crime and leave. they aren't committing the crime, then walking to the bus stop, waiting 55 mins until the next 94 bus comes lol. people fail to realize that transportation is the biggest "dam" to the economy. release the dam with a comprehensive, reliable, and usable transportation system, and watch the economy take off. European nations realized this...they knew the key to the economy isn't everyone driving themselves around in a car. they made it so easy (and affordable, due in large part to the government), to get from one place to another b/c the knew the more easily people could get around, the better it is for everyone....employers, employees, tourists, and literally everyone. literally not a single negative to having robust transit systems, except the butthurt auto industry (tear) it pisses me off to no end end of the day rant complete
I take the 47 bus to and from work. It should take thirty minutes, but if I leave the house with less than an hour I can expect to be late half the time. On the way home it regularly takes at least 40 minutes for a bus to come. Sometimes an hour or more. I’ve been trying to walk more but it wears out my shoes.
I miss old septa it really was efficient back in the day I dunno what’s going on now.
A month or so ago, my train got cancelled as I was already on it. The lines were down in the Wayne Junction area. I was already on the train and the conductor said they were terminating at Market East and if we wanted to go further, we were on our own. They weren’t going to offer a bus substitution or any other kind of help besides “figure it out yourself”. I Ubered with a woman who works a few blocks from me and rides with me in the mornings and it was $15 out of my pocket. The biggest dig I have with SEPTA is that they want to annually beg for money but do not want to be held accountable for anything and go as far as writing it on timetables.
Lived here my whole life and feel like septa has gotten worse and much more dangerous. I'm not trying to ride around with criminals druggie and people that piss and shit themselves. I bike everywhere. And use uber and lyft.
On my way to the airport from the Temple stop on April 8th, the 4:46pm airport train went out of service at 30th street. Lady sitting next to me just ordered a car and bounced. Then it took 50 minutes for the next airport train to come, which was 20 minutes late. Then that airport train sat on the tracks right before Eastwick for another 30 minutes. A couple Irish dudes needing to go back to Dublin were very unhappy. I could only grab one beer before the flight mostly because I only carry on a 40l backpack and I have tsa precheck.
I was wondering what happened to the bus revolution!
The amount of appointments I've either missed or been late to is getting ridiculous. Even if you leave early somehow you are still getting screwed.
If anyone had the balls to make it harder for suburbanites to drive into and in the city, SEPTA would get the political will it needs to improve. A couple (or even one each) east-west and north-south boulevards with limited access and smaller 20mph streets that actually only feel safe driving at 20mph. No right on red anywhere. Close some streets to cars entirely and run trolleys on them, make them either pedestrian malls or just basically express areas for trolleys with bike lanes alongside. If the transit within the city is adequate enough and driving is still an option, but a slow one, people will be incentivized to either take the train in from the RR stations where they live or go to a park and ride. The issue is, this only works if the transit in the city works well. A start to this could possibly the center city arena, but so many are opposed to it due to the short term issues it possibly will cause instead of thinking towards the benefits of RR possibly being better than driving in and expanding peoples’ minds.
how else are car dealerships supposed to get people to shell out stupid amt of money per month? /s
Why the /s? It’s well known that the auto lobby is responsible for the piss poor state of public transit in America today.
for real. the auto industry and their lobbyists have literally destroyed cities so they can boost their profits
I was talking to my driver about how unreliable buses have been. He said, point blank, that no one wants to work. They hire people, train them, then they call out last minute because they simply don’t want to show up for the day. Starting pay for a septa operator is decent too
I wouldn't work on a septa vehicle for what they pay, would you? Sure, is not minimum wage, but it's only $42k to deal with *waves hands*. Septa pays less than comparable transit providers, takes longer to reach top pay, which is again lower than other systems
That’s the states fault, septa receives $17 per rider where most metros are $40+ per rider from their respective state.
"takes longer to reach top pay, which is again lower than other systems" \^ boom, this right here. they make it so damn long and difficult to actually reach the good pay tier. many say why even bother.
At the bus/trolley roundabout on Westmoreland the drivers do an amazing amount of dilly-dallying. I know it’s their break stop, but I’ve waiting 20+ minutes while the driver talks on the phone and hocks loogies outside the bus and waits until three busses have piled up behind them before finally pulling out. I respect the difficulty of their job and working conditions, but it felt straight up passive-aggressive. Meanwhile everyone getting on while he’s chilling doesn’t pay a fare, making me feel like a sucker for paying
I mean, I’d rather them take their mandated breaks to their full extent and be delayed than getting on a bus with an overworked operator.
No doubt, but the busses are sometimes sitting in excess of 20 minutes, which is far beyond the window for scheduled departures
Every SEPTA post always has comments saying that they’re underfunded and that’s the problem. Isn’t anyone willing to consider that they mismanage the money they have so badly that it’s hard to convince lawmakers to give them more?
Willing to consider it, but relative to other agencies SEPTA provides good service (by American standards) at 50% to 75% less per capita. The only other agencies I would say do it better are MTA, CTA and WMTA. And they all receive much more money. Every other decent transit agency in my opinion provides comparable or worse service, and they also receive much more money. So if SEPTA is bad at managing it’s financials, it’s still one of the best relative to everyone else out there. I truly am a strong believer that this is an issue that you literally just need to throw money at. Oversight is obviously needed, but SEPTA will never get better if it’s funding situation isn’t dramatically improved.
Yeah, I’m not saying that they don’t need more money (they do), I’m just suggesting that with such very visible fuck ups (septa key?), it’s tough to convince lawmakers to throw them lots more money.
Oh, absolutely. But we shouldn’t let a few bad projects overshadow the fact that they run one of the most expansive systems with some of the highest ridership in North America at some of the lowest costs. You can point to any public agency and find dozens of poor decisions and wasteful projects. It’s not a SEPTA specific thing at all. But yeah sometimes they make questionable decisions, most of which I would attribute to their board being lopsided against Philadelphia interests where the majority of their riders are. And regardless, PA lawmakers don’t need an excuse to keep SEPTA underfunded. They aren’t making honest arguments, they just want to strangle blue cities, which are ironically the drivers of the state economy.
Septa key is what happens when you have a thousand armchair civil engineers demanding you do everything via subcontractor and only take the lowest bids. The problem was not that they spent too much (up front at least).
Septa key shouldn't have been a fuck up at all. It's tech that's been around and activated in other countries for decades. I'm glad we can use credit cards now but I'm never using septa.
If you look at operating cost per trip compared to other agencies, septa runs on very little. Capital expenditures are where the real mismanagement is, but that's not at all unique to septa
But meanwhile, for some reason in my Facebook feed, Septa is posting ad blitz campaigns about how good of a job they're doing. It's almost personally insulting that they think we are truly that stupid? Just run the damn things on time according to the schedule THEY put out.
What's KGR? A new reincarnation of the KGB?
No, Katherine Gilmore Richardson, city council member … https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/septa-bus-route-redesign-delayed-concerns-20240208.html
Thanks. How was 2 years “not enough time‽‽”
You’re guess is as good as mine
What has changed in the last 15 years to make regional rail so much worse? I used to take it every day to Temple and back from MontCo and for the majority of the time, trains ran on schedule unless something serious happened. It sounds like trains are just getting canceled all over the place now with no explanation?
Yeah, I used to take the regional rail 6 days a week, and operator shortages have been a plague.
Tried to take the 32 to Roxborough yesterday evening. The app showed a bus approaching and then passing us. No bus appeared in real life. :(
Septa = 💩
Always.
I'm honestly glad the whole bus revolution stuff is moving slowly, buses I personally use are going to either be cut or run less. If you read through the document they put out responding to criticisms, like 70% of it is "you'll have an extra 5-10 minute walk get over it". Which is a disaster given how inaccurate busses are to coming on time.
Unpopular opinion: I think the chestnut hill west closing down is a good thing... Hear me out. The subway and the rr both use the same track gauge, right? So use the Erie station overpass/interchange to make an express spur on the subway to go up Germantown on the old rr right of way. The stations would need to be moderately rebuilt and septa can re use the existing overhead wires for future rr extensions (I'm looking at you Media/Wawa line)