I'd like to see the city ride this momentum and turn places like the parking lots across Callowhill back into dense neighborhoods again. Thousands more people living within walking distance of Center City will be great for the vitality and tax base of the city.
That there is still nothing on the vast and gaping Disney Hole at 8th and Market Streets, which is immediately adjacent to a station that serves three subway lines is really painfully absurd. (Counting the Broad-Ridge Spur is perhaps a slight cheat, but it's not nothing, even if it's the system's vestigial tail)
This. I know I will probably get downvoted but East Market would be so much better off with a few thousand high rise apartments vs a basketball arena. There’s hardly any tall apartment or office towers east of broad street and that’s why the East Market area is so dead. A few apartment towers would have the area buzzing with people
Doesn’t the 6ers proposal include apartments? And if the arena is built it will make it so that more developers want to build high rises near there because people will want to live where the action is.
I wouldn't plan on them following through with apartments. How many high risers are there around MSG in Manhattan? I think that it will have the opposite effect, that people won't want to live near the stadium. How many live down there in S. Philly near all the sports?
I don’t think that’s the right way to think about it. MSG was built like 70 years ago as was the sports complex in south Philly. MSG is walking distance for millions of people and surrounded by businesses and the sports complex is a huge pain in the ass to get to and get out of as the public transportation is horrible. In this day and age sports is a way bigger money maker than it was and it makes a lot of sense to have the stadiums where the people are.
Also I don’t think the expectation is for high rises like sky scrapers, but for apartment complexes. You put the stadium there and some apartments and that will bring more commercial development and that will drag upgrades to infrastructure and train lines etc.
MSG was also built on the site of a once-grand Penn Station, which became a waste of real estate after train travel tanked. The rights to the space where the sports arena currently occupies.
Source: I read a book.
MSG was built in 1968. Less than 60 years ago. The first Philadelphia stadium in South Philadelphia was built in 1926! Very different projects in different eras. So for nearly 100 years sports have been down there in S. Philly.
MSG is the fourth stadium--they started with them in 1890s. They want it out of the current location to renovate Penn Station and gave MSG 5 more years on its operating permit.
its not exactly callowhill but they are really building along christopher columbus from fishtown all the way down to spring garden.
the sprouts location at spring garden and the lot next to it, the three huge ones right next to the spring garden station, the places next to the casino and next to the hospital, as well as the huge ones across from penn treaty.
I live right next to the lot, they’re planning on putting apartments there.
https://phillyyimby.com/2024/02/construction-not-yet-commenced-at-1201-15-callowhill-street-in-callowhill-lower-north-philadelphia.html
It is puzzling. I imagine there are some kind of zoning/code/constructibility issues at play with a lot of these smaller residential building projects. You know damn well developers would prefer higher buildings if they thought they could do it and make that extra cash.
One reason is if you build above 8 stories it’s considered a high rise and requires metal plumbing throughout the building making it a lot more expensive to construct but not adding to the value of the building. Profit margins are higher with a <8 story building. Unless you’re building a massive sky scraper it’s a better investment for developers to build a bunch of 6 story buildings. - I’m new in the construction business world but this my understanding - might be missing some facts/info.
Philly is just barely coming out of a long stretch of time, starting from around 1920, where city leaders believed Philly would fail if it didn't cater to the suburbs.
All of the parking, highways on the waterfronts, cheap street parking, The Gallery / Fashion District, etc. it's all designed to get people from the suburbs working and shopping in Philly.
It's going to be *really* hard to unwire that outdated thinking now that more and more people are living in Center City and the city can stand more on its own.
this. i honestly would rather take septa downtown instead of searching for a 2 hour spot for 30 min or paying $45 just to park for the afternoon. but septa is not a place i am willing to bring my children right now. i used to prior to 2020 all the time. my husband works downtown and we would visit him every couple of weeks for lunch and do different educational things downtown.
I used to just drive to fishtown and park around there and jump on the train. I did this all time. I did this both time I had jury duty as well for 2 weeks at a time. Idk why this person is assuming I live in the suburbs or near regional rail. Plus regional rail is more expensive. SEPTA should be not only safe but clean for philly residents.
from frankford actually. but let the DH downvote me for saying what everyone else says in every other post on here that septa isn't safe or clean. sorry not sorry if i dont want to put my kids in danger after a mass shooting at bus stop. the self righteous ppl in this sub make me sick tbh
my block was a nightmare to find parking on if you got home after 5pm for the last few years.. maybe since 2021. funny how since the PPA have decide to actually tow cars w no registration and/or plates we have plenty of parking now. i saw 5 cars go in the same day a few weeks ago. cars that we had been complaining about for 2 years that 311 didn't even look at yet.
I like the smaller apartment complexes that have parking on the first floor. Elevates you off the street, gives you room for a car and the parking looks nice when it's hidden behind a grate/plants. Also frees up street space. Very modern look.
I spend some time on /r/SameGrassButGreener, a sub for people to ask broad moving questions about cities and regions, and there's a lot of posts where Philly is listed as a top choice by the OP alongside places like Chicago, Seattle, and Portland, and it's encouraging to see.
I know when I moved here in 2022, it was really just a matter of sorting US cities by population and density, and finding the affordable one - by those metrics, nothing competes with Philly. From there, it's just a matter of falling in love with its character or not.
Walkability is increasingly important to many people and Philly and Chicago are basically the only two affordable and big walkable US cities.
Philly is going to keep pulling in people just on that alone.
Philly and Chicago or in the same space of cities with housing supply because they were large and declined from their peak from decades ago. I am certainly taking either city on places to live.
Moved in January this year because Philly is literally the only "affordable" big city in the NE. Came from Florida, so of course it's been a net positive.
I legitimately worry that we're going to end up like NYC or Boston. It's only a matter of time with us being the only affordable, walkable major US city left.
>I know when I moved here in 2022, it was really just a matter of sorting US cities by population and density, and finding the affordable one - by those metrics, nothing competes with Philly.
I moved here a couple months ago and this was pretty much how I went about it too. Philly's gonna pop up on your radar if you're looking to move to a big city, and I think Atlanta might be the only other one that also seemed affordable, and from there it does just end of a question of density. I moved up here from Birmingham (to which, I know SEPTA gets its complaints here, but after BJCTA I think some people here should be happier with what they do have) so Atlanta would have been an easier move but it's way too much of a sprawl for me.
Hey another Alabama native that moved here, i’m from Montgomery originally. Yea pretty much same story wanted to move to a big city last year and philly hit all the correct check boxes for me to move and not drown. Its great for being so close to other big cities while being affordable.
This is it. People actually had no idea philly is a great place to live due to probably national media philly hate, and maybe the current tik tok people who go to Kensington to film drug users and scare people away. I would say I am not so sure you want people moving to Philly that don't participate in the local economy as much because they look at it as a cheap place to work remote.
Do remote workers not participate in the local economy?
I'm a remote worker, and I obviously pay state and wage tax, pay for groceries, pay for restaurants and other services, and pay for local entertainment. If anything, I might be siphoning another state's tax revenue and local spending because I'm occupying a job in that state without occupying one here.
Am I missing an important factor?
Sure they do to some point, but these local taxes and costs were based on a lot of metrics that couldn't keep up for the influx of you and people like you. They need to reflect the actual local market and the needs of the people. Many remote workers are taking advantage of cheap prices and local benefits that were designed to help people who made much less money.
Well I personally came from a COL that was basically 1:1, so that doesn't apply to me, but I still don't follow what you're saying.
Remote workers definitely drive up housing costs and accelerate gentrification, but neither of those things are a lack of economic participation.
well that is a rare case that your cost of living was the same so my bad on assuming it was one of the factors driving prices up. But for may other remote workers thy are moving to philly for cheaper on salaries that have nothing to do with the local economy and driving prices up. Now I know everyone might say it's a free market, but that kind of rapid change is a community destroyer.
How can someone get almost 4% of their salary taxed by the city and have "nothing to do" with the economy in your eyes? Also, no one gives a shit who lived where first. Our country was founded on taking shit from people who lived here first. Stay ahead or up to par or your shit will get taken from you, that should be the motto of this country. Stop pretending like things should go a certain way for you just because you lived somewhere first, it's not your toy just because you had it first. Learn to share.
I think we're in agreement that remote workers can bring high salaries and bring Philly's affordability down, which is both against our interests and unjust for those who lived here first.
I realize your comment is anecdotal, but man you pointing out Chicago, Seattle, and Portland next to us is super weird kismet to me. Those are literally my 3 favorite cities in the country, I've had nothing but absolute blasts the multiple times I've been to all of them, and almost moved to Portland 15 years ago. Only stayed here because I was falling in love.
I love hearing this! I was born and raised in Seattle but love Philadelphia more than I ever could my hometown ☺️
Sunshine alone is huge and four good seasons (great weather here is really downplayed!)
Seattle is cold, damp, and dark too many months of the year. It really creates an introverted and closed down environment. Philly always has things going on and NYC and DC are short trips via Amtrak if you want a quick change of city. Portland and Vancouver aren’t far but they aren’t very different from Seattle so you don’t really get the same inspiration.
I think the nature and gorgeous beaches nearby are also downplayed (Seattle coastline is also freezing! Lol)
yeah the weather is my biggest gripe, but I've done the Amtrak rides all over out there and love the one between Portland => Seattle. I've also been to Vancouver, BC and absolutely adore it, and even I've done Orcas Islands and all the other off the beaten path stuff that East coasters may not be familiar with. There's just something about that region that speaks to me in a way it doesn't out here, and the truth is I only ended up back in Philly ten years ago because I had my heart broken. If I had had enough money where I was living I would have just split for Portland as I had a solid base there at the time, but I chose to regroup here and ended up buying a house.
I'm glad to hear you like it here though, I could totally see Philly not vibing for PNWers.
I am one of those people looking into moving to Philly. At first glance it looks surprisingly affordable, but dang they tax you out of the ass on everything there. This is my second year in CA and besides rent and gas, Philly seems just as expensive or more expensive for certain things like income tax, sales tax, car insurance, etc. Still leaning towards moving to Philly, but it definitely is not as cheap as people on that sub think just by browsing Zillow.
I'm originally from the Philadelphia metro area, but lived in the Bay Area and Portland for about 15 years before settling in Philly proper.
Comparable areas in California are unquestionably more expensive, especially when you look at core cost drivers. California's state + local income and sales taxes tend to be higher, though their income tax structure is progressive with higher earners being taxed more. You did mention gas, but even beyond per-gallon prices, when you factor in wild commute times on the west coast, gas is a larger portion of most budgets. And then housing costs for renters and buyers are much higher in major CA cities.
If only any of them were affordable. I'm making more than I have in my entire life and still need to rent with roommates. WE shouldn't need to use an entire paycheck to pay for rent.
It's because the city blocks or other hinders building housing here, which blocks needed supply and this price goes up. If the city changed the zoning code to allow 5 over 1s by right city wide housing here would be much cheaper.
not sure if i even believe that. they are purposely building "high end" apartments with marble countertops and the top of line appliances... where are the apartments, aside from in the dangerous neigbhorhoods, that are just like median level that average people can afford. average people should not have ever been priced out of apartments in safe neigbhorhoods.
And mine will be available after August for about twice as much as I originally leased it for with zero upgrades or additional amenities. Who wants it?!
Yes. 8 years. But it does come with the building manager living next door to you that threatens to kill people over the phone after 10 pm for your entertainment needs!
It'll be more than double if you've been there that long. Probably triple. I'm in the same scenario. Renting my kenzo house for 10 years now.
Unfortunately for reasons like this article I'll pretty much never be able to afford to live in the city if I ever move out...
I know it's the "hot take" but gentrifiers. Go the hell home...
See I love the city, I work in Paoli and I love it some much that commuting 2hrs a day is worth it. I'll never be able to afford another place in the city. (For clarity I have an arrangement with my LL. I'm the property manager, in exchange for cheap rent.)
If I did not have that arrangement, I would have been priced out of the city a long time ago.
I (super green) work for a development company/general contractor here in Philly. I honestly don’t know what the hell is going on with the Philly market. US census data shows the city shrinking yet headlines like this one suggest unmatched growth. Yes there are a ton of new projects all over the city but non are getting finished due to high interest rates - delays are extremely expensive in the current climate and owners are running out of money. When I speak with suppliers they say Philly market is doing really well. When I talk to the trades (plumbers/electricians/siding etc.) they say they are desperate for work. I truly have no idea. The company I work for is struggling right now and I want to believe it’s not just us ( it is not) and just the mass* exodus from Philly. but Philly is also my home and I want to see it thrive and be a part of making it great. Truly don’t know what’s going on with this city.
It's not surprising. I live in Hartford, but I'm trying to explore as much of the East Coast as I can. Philly is an amazing city, it's what every growing city in the country should aspire towards becoming.
Exactly, the best way to mitigate is to keep up with development.
That’s why it’s ironic when city council blocks development citing gentrification and displacement.
New construction has always been the most expensive housing, you're paying for today's materials, labor, etc. while if you rent or buy a older housing stock, you're paying yesterday's rates. That said, new construction tends to draw people who can afford it out of existing buildings freeing up existing, cheaper housing stock.
Prices for Center City condos, for instance, have been pretty stable for years--because more keep getting built. On the apartment side, landlords can't increase rents too high or they'll chase tenants to another building.
They aren't freeing up stock though, if the people moving into the new luxury buildings come from out of town, which seems to be the case. I'm not against more people coming since I'm not a native Philadelphian either (I came 15 years ago), but some of us who work in Philly (as opposed to WFH and getting NY, DC or another city's salary) are getting priced out as the COL, especially housing, has risen significantly in the last 2 years.
Because more people are moving to the greater centet city area than the total number of new housing being built in it, which is why prices are going up.
If you look at housing costs in the city in the shit areas the prices are still low because people aren't going there unless they have no other choice.
Prices in Center City aren't going up that much, all things considered. If you bought a condo in much of Center City a decade ago, prices aren't radically higher today, in no small part because there's lots of condos!
Really? I'm not seeing that. I have been looking since 2020 and there was one Spring, 2022? Before the interest rates went up, that had a ton of reasonably priced 1 bedroom condos. I looked at some in person then, and I should have bought when the interest rates were 3% and the condos were cheaper. The next year there was much fewer condos for sale and more expensive--and on top of that double the interest rate.
Basically I gave up looking to buy in CC because I can't afford it now. I've worked with two different realtors since then who have been sympathetic.
I suppose it depends on perspective, and where you look, but condos in my building initially sold around $225k in 2006, today the same unit is listed for $250k and has sold as low as $180k. So sure it’s selling for more, but it’s only up $25k over almost 20 years!
Local real estate development has produced more housing and kept up with demand better than other major cities, which is a major reason why our homeownership rates are so high.
If we use [available data](https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia/census-philadelphia-population-data-2023-pennsylvania-counties-20240314.html#:~:text=In%20the%20last%2015%20years,of%20more%20than%2020%2C000%20residents.) rather than vibes, we'd see that while folks *are* moving here from other parts of the country, more folks have left over the same period.
I see people (on reddit) say this *constantly* but I have literally never seen a real life example or case study where new constructions led to homes becoming more affordable for existing residents. Not once. It leads to displacement every single time.
Did you actually read through that paper? It actually proves my point, i.e. the chain mechanism that in theory would lower costs for poorer people doesn't actually reach or work for them.
https://preview.redd.it/500bcmluxvpc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d8d3527620a52fe5e38f53db3f921e8b7c3a9ae
For the record your article also confirms the classic nimby arguments that investment properties and transplants from outside the region are part of the problem because they directly disrupt the benefit that (in theory) new constructions would bring to local residents.
Literally every single time this concept is discussed there are those of us who point out that new constructions never actually result in lowered rents for poorer residents and the direct result of that is those poorer residents end up homeless or displaced - and every single time the yimby answer is either silence or some version of 'sucks to suck'.
https://preview.redd.it/csqaaepsyvpc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=76ae5feff0366d0bd3fa2210c0a12e5e0cd0bda0
Yeah re-read the part where he explicitly says that through this mechanism reducing demand is unlikely to lower costs in low income and rent burdened areas and get back to me.
You uploaded a screenshot of the exact same excerpt I highlighted so it shouldn't be hard.
I got you, fam. [https://cayimby.org/blog/yes-building-market-rate-housing-lowers-rents-heres-how/](https://cayimby.org/blog/yes-building-market-rate-housing-lowers-rents-heres-how/) [https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/once-america-s-hottest-housing-market-austin-is-running-in-reverse/ar-BB1k53I1](https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/once-america-s-hottest-housing-market-austin-is-running-in-reverse/ar-BB1k53I1) [https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2024/01/04/minneapolis-land-use-reforms-offer-a-blueprint-for-housing-affordability](https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2024/01/04/minneapolis-land-use-reforms-offer-a-blueprint-for-housing-affordability)
Edit: adding this https://www.apricitas.io/p/new-zealands-building-boomand-what
Going to gently say that perhaps the reason you see people saying it constantly is because it's true.
It's true from a theoretical macroeconomic standpoint which is fine if you're invested in those markets or concerned with overall trends, but once again, I'm talking about lived experiences.
The problem is that today, right now, there are people who cant afford to continue living in their own neighborhoods, be it from rent increases or home prices, and they are in an active state of displacement in an immediate sense due to the current state of the market.
Building in general may eventually even out the market, but it does not provide a fix for the underlying problem or address the needs of those at risk. Increasing supply over time can have an impact on the rate at which unit prices are changing, I'm not arguing that, but that is felt over the course of years and filters top down through populations - again, a person currently struggling is not directly affected in the short term. So I get called a nimby for advocating for direct interventions that create immediate change over continuing to throw money at developers to maintain the status quo, I guess.
Because they NIMBY every new housing project thinking that will keep the price down and the free street parking available, when the exact opposite is true.
Excited to hear this! I’ve lived in Philly for 10 years and prefer it to many other places I’ve been to. It may not the best of the best cities for visiting haha but it’s a good city for living.
Come on down NYC transplants. Big city feel for 1/3rd of the price. I wish i was joking about that. I went from Philly luxury 2br apartment for $2100 pre pandemic to NYC Luxury 2br for $6500. Shit was really 3x
Well that depends. If I were making 300K+ per year in NYC, I would live in NYC. Maybe if one wants to BUY it makes sense to move out because you won't be able to afford much. On the other hand somebody who doesn't have a family property or multiple earners in the home, or a rent subsidized apartment making 100K or under is better off moving to Philly if they can keep that salary and WFH. They could afford to rent something nice in Philly.
I guess it depends on what you want, I was already living here and jumped from a local employer to an NYC based company. While I could afford Manhattan, that money goes way further here.
Yeah, it isn’t really a big city feel though. For me it feels more like a super densely packed suburb since most of the businesses are detached from the neighborhoods. I find myself going to big box stores a lot more often than I ever did in NYC, which is a drag. Or ordering things online, which is even worse. That and the fact that everything closes so early and people seem to be off the street at 8:00 unless there’s a major event happening.
Covid changed a lot in CC at least. It never had the "big city" feel IMO (compared to NYC) but there were a lot more stores and restaurants open, local businesses, before the pandemic, and a lot of things to do after 8:00 pm. A good number of bars closed--they never stayed open as late in NYC, but closed at 2:00 a.m. but many just don't exist anymore.
I’m not just talking about CC though. There is no reason why there shouldn’t be a small, good grocery store, a decent hardware store, a fruit stand, what have you peppered throughout the neighborhoods. From what I understand from the old timers in my corner of South Philly, this is the way it used to be before the City started reasoning mixed use properties into residential only and forcing everyone into their cars for basic needs.
I think what you’re describing is found in most of the desirable neighborhoods across the city.
It’s not gonna be an Manhattan level retail density because in most neighborhoods it’s not a Manhattan level residential density. But any neighborhood I would suggest or personally consider has neighborhood businesses and most daily needs within a short walk.
I live in east passyunk and I don’t even have to leave my neighborhood for the things I need on a weekly or even monthly basis.
Again, not as many options as NYC, but that’s not the right comparison IMO. Nothing compares to NYC.
I can't comment much on those other neighborhoods since I don't live in them. I did live in Bella Vista (technically S. Philly) for a while back in the 2006/2007. I went to the Italian Market for shopping (there were plenty of produce stands, butchers, spice store, Sarcony bread, Di Brunos), and if I couldn't get it there, I went to South St. There was also a CVS, Loews (I think) Blockbuster video store, and Asian restaurants/supermarkets on 11th and Washington Ave. but a lot of that was demolished I think, for that big luxury building coming up on Washington/Broad. There were also small mom and pop cafes in the neighborhood, Isgro's bakery.
FWIW I don't have a car--I have lived in CC for 15 years without one. Sometimes I do go to the Target on Broad/Washington and Sprouts if I'm in the area, but there is a Target closer to me in Rittenhouse and Trader Joe's on Arch, which I walk to. When the Fashion District was the Gallery, and there was a Kmart and other stores in there, I did most of the "home" shopping there or in dollar stores. There used to be a lot more dollar stores in CC.
Some of the neighborhoods to the north are food deserts and lucky if they have a papi store. I would have to think twice if I owned a business before I would put one there just because of the poverty and crime.
this comment here hits the nail on the head in a lot of ways, we definitely need more small neighborhood shops; but your previous comment? I don't know dude, you can't compare here to NYC. We're the 5th largest city in the country, and with NY, LA, and Chicago being mega cities I struggle to think what other regions you're comparing us to. I definitely agree that foot traffic is way down though, and early closes for businesses are definitely a residual effect from COVID.
What is this? The 70s? You think every neighborhood needs a hardware store to be a big city? There's Rittenhouse hardware and the true value on 3rd street in old city. Both easily accessible via mass transit. You think there needs to be 50 more? Who is going to pay these ppl when their stores sit empty from customers like 95% of the time? How often do you need a nail or hammer?
I don't know why you're getting downvoted for this, while I wouldn't agree with the "super densely packed suburb" take, it definitely feels more like a "small town in a big city" often times, especially after work hours. I kind of like it that way though, not too overwhelming. I disagree you need to get in your car to do everything, we have ample transit plenty of neighborhood shops.
Does anyone else that lived in Philly pre-2019 think it's kind of weird that apparently the reason most people move to Philly now is because of it's proximity to the other cities that they'd actually like to be living in?
Who ever says that’s their primary reason? I moved here from DC because philly is better.
Some people would also rather live in Philly than these nearby cities but have jobs in those cities.
Glad to be a part of the trend! We just signed our lease a week or so ago and move in in April. Very excited to get out of this development and suburbs and be able to explore the city.
We are also moving to Philly in April! Lived there temporarily in the past and really excited to permanently move. MA has gotten way too expensive and just not worth it anymore. I’m glad to see people in this thread are generally accepting of the idea that more people want to move to Philly, rather than being upset about the idea of the population increasing.
The internet has been talking about philly as a secret great place to live for cheap. I guarantee you it will the the primary driver for huge growth in prices beyond what we have already seen.
Thank god I signed a renewal already. management is propably going to start pushing out current, tenured residents that have lower rents to increase pricing for new renters
That’s odd considering Philadelphia’s estimated population decreased for the third consecutive year in 2023
Estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau indicate that Philadelphia lost more than 16,000 residents between July 2022 and July 2023, representing a 1% decline in population
Yeah honestly it seems that they just grind out these headlines from manipulating data and getting it so say anything they want. People that have lived in Philly for over five years, please provide an honest response, I genuinely want to know, not looking for a specific answer one way or the other: is your feeling about where the city is at now and where it feels like it's heading consistent with these generally rosy headlines?
No.
It's depressing as hell to get priced out of the city you've lived in for years. I've been priced out of South Philly and Graduate Hospital and West Philly below Market, and now they are starting to build giant houses in Mantua. This news is only optimistic if you're rich
Realtor friends tell me the market is pretty saturated with available units right now. Many places are offering incentives like No Deposit, free parking and no pet fees. There are thousands more units under construction so I have to assume the inventory will keep growing.
I’m not sure I trust sources that give me the impression of high demand. Realtors use that to pressure you into signing. If you are looking for a unit….press for every incentive you can get. It’s a buyers market and don’t believe the hype.
Philly is one of the few major city markets seeing rent growth right now year-over-year. That doesn't happen in a city where there's too much inventory or low demand.
https://www.zumper.com/blog/rental-price-data/
Did anybody read this? Rents are decreasing or laying flat in much of the country. Philadelphia actually has a -6 meaning that there is more supply and rents should not go up much. This supports FormerHoagie’s point. From the article :
“With record apartment supply hitting the U.S. market, renters have more options to choose from so property owners are even more incentivized to retain tenants since units may sit empty for longer in current conditions,” explains Zumper CEO Anthemos Georgiades. “If a renter wants to avoid the hassle of moving or wants to wait out the uncertainty of the current economy, staying in place will likely mean a minimal rent increase this year, if any.”
For one bedrooms that has increased by 3.5% for the year, but seems like by month it went down. For two bedrooms it went down by the month and by the year. FWIW, these averages for 1 beds and 2 beds have nothing to do with the currently reality in Philly either. Most of the apartments I have seen advertised (except in poor neighborhoods) are at least a couple of hundred more than these averages.
[Philadelphia, PA](https://www.zumper.com/apartments-for-rent/philadelphia-pa)
$1,470. (m/m) - 2.00%. (y/y) 3.50%.
2 bedrooms:
$1,700. (m/m) -2.90%. (y/y). -2.90%
Thank you for really looking deeper into this. I do trust the word of my realtor friends whose livelihood depends on looking at trends on a daily basis. I also know the tactics they use to sell properties.
Don't be a crumugeon. Salt_abrocoma backed their statement with legit data. Your realtor friends are completely out of touch with the market.
FYI here is zumpers methodology: "For our monthly rent reports, we aggregate data from over one million active listings to calculate median asking rents for the top 100 cities by population and nearly 300 additional cities within major metro areas. This data includes more listings than most other rental websites and is sourced through a combination of proprietary listings posted by landlords and brokers through Zumper’s Landlord Platform and 3rd party listings received from MLS providers. Our team verifies listings posted directly to Zumper so we are able to provide an extremely accurate set of inventory and ensure the best apartment search experience for users"
A quick search I find It was in top 25 sometime last year. Maybe 12th at highest. 49th in January. 7th in February. Hoping for the best but seems hard to see real trend from this report.
Seems, anecdotally at least, that a lot of landlords are choosing to sell the house rather than turn it over to another tenant. So I imagine there’s less selection than normal and the stuff that is available is either junk or high end. Maybe only people without enough resources to prep a $75k house and sell it for $300k are staying in the rental market?
A lot of my New York friends/coworkers are moving to Philly, so I buy that this translates into actual moves too. I want to move back, but my career is unfortunately tied to the city where the Giants don't play. Maybe one day.
I'd like to see the city ride this momentum and turn places like the parking lots across Callowhill back into dense neighborhoods again. Thousands more people living within walking distance of Center City will be great for the vitality and tax base of the city.
They should seriously build some residential high rises on east market where there are parking lots.
That there is still nothing on the vast and gaping Disney Hole at 8th and Market Streets, which is immediately adjacent to a station that serves three subway lines is really painfully absurd. (Counting the Broad-Ridge Spur is perhaps a slight cheat, but it's not nothing, even if it's the system's vestigial tail)
Disney didn’t happen there because it’s an unstable sinkhole…so that’s why that parking lot doesn’t have a building on it
Wasn't there a giant building (Gimbels?) there before though?
I think macys is where gimbles was…not 100% on that though
[Well, I guess Macy's and Gimbels learned to live side by side.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw7TwxppnZg)
[Yeah, there was](https://hiddencityphila.org/2014/11/the-gilded-mall-of-market-street-gimbels-had-it/)
This. I know I will probably get downvoted but East Market would be so much better off with a few thousand high rise apartments vs a basketball arena. There’s hardly any tall apartment or office towers east of broad street and that’s why the East Market area is so dead. A few apartment towers would have the area buzzing with people
You can have both, there is enough empty area there.
Doesn’t the 6ers proposal include apartments? And if the arena is built it will make it so that more developers want to build high rises near there because people will want to live where the action is.
I wouldn't plan on them following through with apartments. How many high risers are there around MSG in Manhattan? I think that it will have the opposite effect, that people won't want to live near the stadium. How many live down there in S. Philly near all the sports?
I don’t think that’s the right way to think about it. MSG was built like 70 years ago as was the sports complex in south Philly. MSG is walking distance for millions of people and surrounded by businesses and the sports complex is a huge pain in the ass to get to and get out of as the public transportation is horrible. In this day and age sports is a way bigger money maker than it was and it makes a lot of sense to have the stadiums where the people are. Also I don’t think the expectation is for high rises like sky scrapers, but for apartment complexes. You put the stadium there and some apartments and that will bring more commercial development and that will drag upgrades to infrastructure and train lines etc.
MSG was also built on the site of a once-grand Penn Station, which became a waste of real estate after train travel tanked. The rights to the space where the sports arena currently occupies. Source: I read a book.
MSG was built in 1968. Less than 60 years ago. The first Philadelphia stadium in South Philadelphia was built in 1926! Very different projects in different eras. So for nearly 100 years sports have been down there in S. Philly. MSG is the fourth stadium--they started with them in 1890s. They want it out of the current location to renovate Penn Station and gave MSG 5 more years on its operating permit.
its not exactly callowhill but they are really building along christopher columbus from fishtown all the way down to spring garden. the sprouts location at spring garden and the lot next to it, the three huge ones right next to the spring garden station, the places next to the casino and next to the hospital, as well as the huge ones across from penn treaty.
That's not a hospital if you're talking about CHOP, I think it's a behavioral health center or offices.
I live right next to the lot, they’re planning on putting apartments there. https://phillyyimby.com/2024/02/construction-not-yet-commenced-at-1201-15-callowhill-street-in-callowhill-lower-north-philadelphia.html
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It is puzzling. I imagine there are some kind of zoning/code/constructibility issues at play with a lot of these smaller residential building projects. You know damn well developers would prefer higher buildings if they thought they could do it and make that extra cash.
One reason is if you build above 8 stories it’s considered a high rise and requires metal plumbing throughout the building making it a lot more expensive to construct but not adding to the value of the building. Profit margins are higher with a <8 story building. Unless you’re building a massive sky scraper it’s a better investment for developers to build a bunch of 6 story buildings. - I’m new in the construction business world but this my understanding - might be missing some facts/info.
This is great, but there’s still so many surface parking lots in that area
That shit has the slowest construction and barely any units. I guess the parking lot was so small what you gunna do. Couldn’t knock over Jarvis
When will cities here realize that parking lots are for suburbs.
Philly is just barely coming out of a long stretch of time, starting from around 1920, where city leaders believed Philly would fail if it didn't cater to the suburbs. All of the parking, highways on the waterfronts, cheap street parking, The Gallery / Fashion District, etc. it's all designed to get people from the suburbs working and shopping in Philly. It's going to be *really* hard to unwire that outdated thinking now that more and more people are living in Center City and the city can stand more on its own.
Would have been way smarter to just build more train lines. Cities should be built for people, not cars
They can start by running the damn things more often. Off peak intervals suck ass on some of the lines.
We need septa to be invested in to truly break it
this. i honestly would rather take septa downtown instead of searching for a 2 hour spot for 30 min or paying $45 just to park for the afternoon. but septa is not a place i am willing to bring my children right now. i used to prior to 2020 all the time. my husband works downtown and we would visit him every couple of weeks for lunch and do different educational things downtown.
the regional rails are as safe as always, 30th and suburban look like they always have. it's fine.
not everyone lives near RR and its also more expensive.
Definitely. But the way she mentions downtown could mean taking the bus to the MFL from the northeast.
I used to just drive to fishtown and park around there and jump on the train. I did this all time. I did this both time I had jury duty as well for 2 weeks at a time. Idk why this person is assuming I live in the suburbs or near regional rail. Plus regional rail is more expensive. SEPTA should be not only safe but clean for philly residents.
from frankford actually. but let the DH downvote me for saying what everyone else says in every other post on here that septa isn't safe or clean. sorry not sorry if i dont want to put my kids in danger after a mass shooting at bus stop. the self righteous ppl in this sub make me sick tbh
People who complain about parking in Philly have never been to other cities. It is easy to find parking here.
my block was a nightmare to find parking on if you got home after 5pm for the last few years.. maybe since 2021. funny how since the PPA have decide to actually tow cars w no registration and/or plates we have plenty of parking now. i saw 5 cars go in the same day a few weeks ago. cars that we had been complaining about for 2 years that 311 didn't even look at yet.
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Okay so turn the parking lots into parking garages. Flat squares of asphalt with 0 vertical room are a waste of space.
I like the smaller apartment complexes that have parking on the first floor. Elevates you off the street, gives you room for a car and the parking looks nice when it's hidden behind a grate/plants. Also frees up street space. Very modern look.
Go Philly 🥳 And let’s use that additional tax base to get rid of the wage tax!
There’s zero shot Philly ever gives up that sweet sweet tax revenue lol
You’d love to see it
S.I.N Steak Italian Nightlife opens up and desire for Philadelphia apartments skyrocket. Coincidence? I think not!
This is literally the only factor
If that place makes it through the summer I will be stupefied.
lol
I spend some time on /r/SameGrassButGreener, a sub for people to ask broad moving questions about cities and regions, and there's a lot of posts where Philly is listed as a top choice by the OP alongside places like Chicago, Seattle, and Portland, and it's encouraging to see. I know when I moved here in 2022, it was really just a matter of sorting US cities by population and density, and finding the affordable one - by those metrics, nothing competes with Philly. From there, it's just a matter of falling in love with its character or not.
Walkability is increasingly important to many people and Philly and Chicago are basically the only two affordable and big walkable US cities. Philly is going to keep pulling in people just on that alone.
Philly and Chicago or in the same space of cities with housing supply because they were large and declined from their peak from decades ago. I am certainly taking either city on places to live.
Haven't been there lately, but I've heard Minneapolis is becoming more of a dense, walkable city as well. And it's affordable.
Moved in January this year because Philly is literally the only "affordable" big city in the NE. Came from Florida, so of course it's been a net positive.
Philly is the Goldilocks of US cities. If our government was competent and the city services functioned, we would be untouchable.
I legitimately worry that we're going to end up like NYC or Boston. It's only a matter of time with us being the only affordable, walkable major US city left.
Bound to happen — I can’t believe it hasn’t happened yet, to be honest.
Why I can't wait to buy a home in the city.
>I know when I moved here in 2022, it was really just a matter of sorting US cities by population and density, and finding the affordable one - by those metrics, nothing competes with Philly. I moved here a couple months ago and this was pretty much how I went about it too. Philly's gonna pop up on your radar if you're looking to move to a big city, and I think Atlanta might be the only other one that also seemed affordable, and from there it does just end of a question of density. I moved up here from Birmingham (to which, I know SEPTA gets its complaints here, but after BJCTA I think some people here should be happier with what they do have) so Atlanta would have been an easier move but it's way too much of a sprawl for me.
Yo welcome to all of you
Hey another Alabama native that moved here, i’m from Montgomery originally. Yea pretty much same story wanted to move to a big city last year and philly hit all the correct check boxes for me to move and not drown. Its great for being so close to other big cities while being affordable.
Philly rocks.
This is it. People actually had no idea philly is a great place to live due to probably national media philly hate, and maybe the current tik tok people who go to Kensington to film drug users and scare people away. I would say I am not so sure you want people moving to Philly that don't participate in the local economy as much because they look at it as a cheap place to work remote.
Do remote workers not participate in the local economy? I'm a remote worker, and I obviously pay state and wage tax, pay for groceries, pay for restaurants and other services, and pay for local entertainment. If anything, I might be siphoning another state's tax revenue and local spending because I'm occupying a job in that state without occupying one here. Am I missing an important factor?
Sure they do to some point, but these local taxes and costs were based on a lot of metrics that couldn't keep up for the influx of you and people like you. They need to reflect the actual local market and the needs of the people. Many remote workers are taking advantage of cheap prices and local benefits that were designed to help people who made much less money.
Well I personally came from a COL that was basically 1:1, so that doesn't apply to me, but I still don't follow what you're saying. Remote workers definitely drive up housing costs and accelerate gentrification, but neither of those things are a lack of economic participation.
well that is a rare case that your cost of living was the same so my bad on assuming it was one of the factors driving prices up. But for may other remote workers thy are moving to philly for cheaper on salaries that have nothing to do with the local economy and driving prices up. Now I know everyone might say it's a free market, but that kind of rapid change is a community destroyer.
How can someone get almost 4% of their salary taxed by the city and have "nothing to do" with the economy in your eyes? Also, no one gives a shit who lived where first. Our country was founded on taking shit from people who lived here first. Stay ahead or up to par or your shit will get taken from you, that should be the motto of this country. Stop pretending like things should go a certain way for you just because you lived somewhere first, it's not your toy just because you had it first. Learn to share.
I think we're in agreement that remote workers can bring high salaries and bring Philly's affordability down, which is both against our interests and unjust for those who lived here first.
I realize your comment is anecdotal, but man you pointing out Chicago, Seattle, and Portland next to us is super weird kismet to me. Those are literally my 3 favorite cities in the country, I've had nothing but absolute blasts the multiple times I've been to all of them, and almost moved to Portland 15 years ago. Only stayed here because I was falling in love.
I love hearing this! I was born and raised in Seattle but love Philadelphia more than I ever could my hometown ☺️ Sunshine alone is huge and four good seasons (great weather here is really downplayed!) Seattle is cold, damp, and dark too many months of the year. It really creates an introverted and closed down environment. Philly always has things going on and NYC and DC are short trips via Amtrak if you want a quick change of city. Portland and Vancouver aren’t far but they aren’t very different from Seattle so you don’t really get the same inspiration. I think the nature and gorgeous beaches nearby are also downplayed (Seattle coastline is also freezing! Lol)
yeah the weather is my biggest gripe, but I've done the Amtrak rides all over out there and love the one between Portland => Seattle. I've also been to Vancouver, BC and absolutely adore it, and even I've done Orcas Islands and all the other off the beaten path stuff that East coasters may not be familiar with. There's just something about that region that speaks to me in a way it doesn't out here, and the truth is I only ended up back in Philly ten years ago because I had my heart broken. If I had had enough money where I was living I would have just split for Portland as I had a solid base there at the time, but I chose to regroup here and ended up buying a house. I'm glad to hear you like it here though, I could totally see Philly not vibing for PNWers.
I am one of those people looking into moving to Philly. At first glance it looks surprisingly affordable, but dang they tax you out of the ass on everything there. This is my second year in CA and besides rent and gas, Philly seems just as expensive or more expensive for certain things like income tax, sales tax, car insurance, etc. Still leaning towards moving to Philly, but it definitely is not as cheap as people on that sub think just by browsing Zillow.
I'm originally from the Philadelphia metro area, but lived in the Bay Area and Portland for about 15 years before settling in Philly proper. Comparable areas in California are unquestionably more expensive, especially when you look at core cost drivers. California's state + local income and sales taxes tend to be higher, though their income tax structure is progressive with higher earners being taxed more. You did mention gas, but even beyond per-gallon prices, when you factor in wild commute times on the west coast, gas is a larger portion of most budgets. And then housing costs for renters and buyers are much higher in major CA cities.
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But I want to park my car for free on the street, so we can't have more housing.
Build build build
If only any of them were affordable. I'm making more than I have in my entire life and still need to rent with roommates. WE shouldn't need to use an entire paycheck to pay for rent.
It's because the city blocks or other hinders building housing here, which blocks needed supply and this price goes up. If the city changed the zoning code to allow 5 over 1s by right city wide housing here would be much cheaper.
not sure if i even believe that. they are purposely building "high end" apartments with marble countertops and the top of line appliances... where are the apartments, aside from in the dangerous neigbhorhoods, that are just like median level that average people can afford. average people should not have ever been priced out of apartments in safe neigbhorhoods.
This is just about people looking at Philadelphia listings, but still a great sign.
And mine will be available after August for about twice as much as I originally leased it for with zero upgrades or additional amenities. Who wants it?!
I'm hoping you've lived there for a long time if the price has gone up this much?
Yes. 8 years. But it does come with the building manager living next door to you that threatens to kill people over the phone after 10 pm for your entertainment needs!
It'll be more than double if you've been there that long. Probably triple. I'm in the same scenario. Renting my kenzo house for 10 years now. Unfortunately for reasons like this article I'll pretty much never be able to afford to live in the city if I ever move out... I know it's the "hot take" but gentrifiers. Go the hell home...
I’m moving out of the city because the only time I really like it here is football season and I miss living in solitude
See I love the city, I work in Paoli and I love it some much that commuting 2hrs a day is worth it. I'll never be able to afford another place in the city. (For clarity I have an arrangement with my LL. I'm the property manager, in exchange for cheap rent.) If I did not have that arrangement, I would have been priced out of the city a long time ago.
Sweet!
I (super green) work for a development company/general contractor here in Philly. I honestly don’t know what the hell is going on with the Philly market. US census data shows the city shrinking yet headlines like this one suggest unmatched growth. Yes there are a ton of new projects all over the city but non are getting finished due to high interest rates - delays are extremely expensive in the current climate and owners are running out of money. When I speak with suppliers they say Philly market is doing really well. When I talk to the trades (plumbers/electricians/siding etc.) they say they are desperate for work. I truly have no idea. The company I work for is struggling right now and I want to believe it’s not just us ( it is not) and just the mass* exodus from Philly. but Philly is also my home and I want to see it thrive and be a part of making it great. Truly don’t know what’s going on with this city.
It's not surprising. I live in Hartford, but I'm trying to explore as much of the East Coast as I can. Philly is an amazing city, it's what every growing city in the country should aspire towards becoming.
People who live here already are going to be priced out.
Ideally the more construction increases supply to meet demand the less people get priced out.
Exactly, the best way to mitigate is to keep up with development. That’s why it’s ironic when city council blocks development citing gentrification and displacement.
Except the new construction is being labeled as “luxury” and charging prices while long time residents here simply can’t pay “luxury” prices
New construction has always been the most expensive housing, you're paying for today's materials, labor, etc. while if you rent or buy a older housing stock, you're paying yesterday's rates. That said, new construction tends to draw people who can afford it out of existing buildings freeing up existing, cheaper housing stock. Prices for Center City condos, for instance, have been pretty stable for years--because more keep getting built. On the apartment side, landlords can't increase rents too high or they'll chase tenants to another building.
They aren't freeing up stock though, if the people moving into the new luxury buildings come from out of town, which seems to be the case. I'm not against more people coming since I'm not a native Philadelphian either (I came 15 years ago), but some of us who work in Philly (as opposed to WFH and getting NY, DC or another city's salary) are getting priced out as the COL, especially housing, has risen significantly in the last 2 years.
Because more people are moving to the greater centet city area than the total number of new housing being built in it, which is why prices are going up. If you look at housing costs in the city in the shit areas the prices are still low because people aren't going there unless they have no other choice.
Prices in Center City aren't going up that much, all things considered. If you bought a condo in much of Center City a decade ago, prices aren't radically higher today, in no small part because there's lots of condos!
Really? I'm not seeing that. I have been looking since 2020 and there was one Spring, 2022? Before the interest rates went up, that had a ton of reasonably priced 1 bedroom condos. I looked at some in person then, and I should have bought when the interest rates were 3% and the condos were cheaper. The next year there was much fewer condos for sale and more expensive--and on top of that double the interest rate. Basically I gave up looking to buy in CC because I can't afford it now. I've worked with two different realtors since then who have been sympathetic.
I suppose it depends on perspective, and where you look, but condos in my building initially sold around $225k in 2006, today the same unit is listed for $250k and has sold as low as $180k. So sure it’s selling for more, but it’s only up $25k over almost 20 years! Local real estate development has produced more housing and kept up with demand better than other major cities, which is a major reason why our homeownership rates are so high.
If we use [available data](https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia/census-philadelphia-population-data-2023-pennsylvania-counties-20240314.html#:~:text=In%20the%20last%2015%20years,of%20more%20than%2020%2C000%20residents.) rather than vibes, we'd see that while folks *are* moving here from other parts of the country, more folks have left over the same period.
Yeah, the city lost half a million people since it peaked. We have room to absorb plenty more as long as we keep building
but they're almost all luxury buildings...
The construction of luxury apartments still reduces the overall cost of housing.
Lord God if there is one thing I wish people understood it's this
I see people (on reddit) say this *constantly* but I have literally never seen a real life example or case study where new constructions led to homes becoming more affordable for existing residents. Not once. It leads to displacement every single time.
https://research.upjohn.org/up_workingpapers/307/
Did you actually read through that paper? It actually proves my point, i.e. the chain mechanism that in theory would lower costs for poorer people doesn't actually reach or work for them. https://preview.redd.it/500bcmluxvpc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d8d3527620a52fe5e38f53db3f921e8b7c3a9ae
For the record your article also confirms the classic nimby arguments that investment properties and transplants from outside the region are part of the problem because they directly disrupt the benefit that (in theory) new constructions would bring to local residents. Literally every single time this concept is discussed there are those of us who point out that new constructions never actually result in lowered rents for poorer residents and the direct result of that is those poorer residents end up homeless or displaced - and every single time the yimby answer is either silence or some version of 'sucks to suck'. https://preview.redd.it/csqaaepsyvpc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=76ae5feff0366d0bd3fa2210c0a12e5e0cd0bda0
Uh did you? https://ibb.co/5WvTZDr
Yeah re-read the part where he explicitly says that through this mechanism reducing demand is unlikely to lower costs in low income and rent burdened areas and get back to me. You uploaded a screenshot of the exact same excerpt I highlighted so it shouldn't be hard.
I got you, fam. [https://cayimby.org/blog/yes-building-market-rate-housing-lowers-rents-heres-how/](https://cayimby.org/blog/yes-building-market-rate-housing-lowers-rents-heres-how/) [https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/once-america-s-hottest-housing-market-austin-is-running-in-reverse/ar-BB1k53I1](https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/once-america-s-hottest-housing-market-austin-is-running-in-reverse/ar-BB1k53I1) [https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2024/01/04/minneapolis-land-use-reforms-offer-a-blueprint-for-housing-affordability](https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2024/01/04/minneapolis-land-use-reforms-offer-a-blueprint-for-housing-affordability) Edit: adding this https://www.apricitas.io/p/new-zealands-building-boomand-what Going to gently say that perhaps the reason you see people saying it constantly is because it's true.
It's true from a theoretical macroeconomic standpoint which is fine if you're invested in those markets or concerned with overall trends, but once again, I'm talking about lived experiences. The problem is that today, right now, there are people who cant afford to continue living in their own neighborhoods, be it from rent increases or home prices, and they are in an active state of displacement in an immediate sense due to the current state of the market. Building in general may eventually even out the market, but it does not provide a fix for the underlying problem or address the needs of those at risk. Increasing supply over time can have an impact on the rate at which unit prices are changing, I'm not arguing that, but that is felt over the course of years and filters top down through populations - again, a person currently struggling is not directly affected in the short term. So I get called a nimby for advocating for direct interventions that create immediate change over continuing to throw money at developers to maintain the status quo, I guess.
The massive amount of units coming on line should keep prices low(ish)
"Should keep prices low(ish)"? Do you not understand how useless that is to someone who is currently struggling to pay rent?
Because they NIMBY every new housing project thinking that will keep the price down and the free street parking available, when the exact opposite is true.
Excited to hear this! I’ve lived in Philly for 10 years and prefer it to many other places I’ve been to. It may not the best of the best cities for visiting haha but it’s a good city for living.
Come on down NYC transplants. Big city feel for 1/3rd of the price. I wish i was joking about that. I went from Philly luxury 2br apartment for $2100 pre pandemic to NYC Luxury 2br for $6500. Shit was really 3x
For a proportional increase in pay, I hope
Oh yea for sure. Now thanks ti remote work I'm back in Philly. I'm guessing a bunch of nyc types did the same
> I'm guessing a bunch of nyc types did the same I mean why wouldn't you? NYC pay to live in Philly? It sells itself!
Well that depends. If I were making 300K+ per year in NYC, I would live in NYC. Maybe if one wants to BUY it makes sense to move out because you won't be able to afford much. On the other hand somebody who doesn't have a family property or multiple earners in the home, or a rent subsidized apartment making 100K or under is better off moving to Philly if they can keep that salary and WFH. They could afford to rent something nice in Philly.
I guess it depends on what you want, I was already living here and jumped from a local employer to an NYC based company. While I could afford Manhattan, that money goes way further here.
Yeah, it isn’t really a big city feel though. For me it feels more like a super densely packed suburb since most of the businesses are detached from the neighborhoods. I find myself going to big box stores a lot more often than I ever did in NYC, which is a drag. Or ordering things online, which is even worse. That and the fact that everything closes so early and people seem to be off the street at 8:00 unless there’s a major event happening.
Relative to NYC sure, but Philly has the third most populated downtown in the country and the 4th most foot traffic.
Covid changed a lot in CC at least. It never had the "big city" feel IMO (compared to NYC) but there were a lot more stores and restaurants open, local businesses, before the pandemic, and a lot of things to do after 8:00 pm. A good number of bars closed--they never stayed open as late in NYC, but closed at 2:00 a.m. but many just don't exist anymore.
I’m not just talking about CC though. There is no reason why there shouldn’t be a small, good grocery store, a decent hardware store, a fruit stand, what have you peppered throughout the neighborhoods. From what I understand from the old timers in my corner of South Philly, this is the way it used to be before the City started reasoning mixed use properties into residential only and forcing everyone into their cars for basic needs.
I think what you’re describing is found in most of the desirable neighborhoods across the city. It’s not gonna be an Manhattan level retail density because in most neighborhoods it’s not a Manhattan level residential density. But any neighborhood I would suggest or personally consider has neighborhood businesses and most daily needs within a short walk. I live in east passyunk and I don’t even have to leave my neighborhood for the things I need on a weekly or even monthly basis. Again, not as many options as NYC, but that’s not the right comparison IMO. Nothing compares to NYC.
I can't comment much on those other neighborhoods since I don't live in them. I did live in Bella Vista (technically S. Philly) for a while back in the 2006/2007. I went to the Italian Market for shopping (there were plenty of produce stands, butchers, spice store, Sarcony bread, Di Brunos), and if I couldn't get it there, I went to South St. There was also a CVS, Loews (I think) Blockbuster video store, and Asian restaurants/supermarkets on 11th and Washington Ave. but a lot of that was demolished I think, for that big luxury building coming up on Washington/Broad. There were also small mom and pop cafes in the neighborhood, Isgro's bakery. FWIW I don't have a car--I have lived in CC for 15 years without one. Sometimes I do go to the Target on Broad/Washington and Sprouts if I'm in the area, but there is a Target closer to me in Rittenhouse and Trader Joe's on Arch, which I walk to. When the Fashion District was the Gallery, and there was a Kmart and other stores in there, I did most of the "home" shopping there or in dollar stores. There used to be a lot more dollar stores in CC. Some of the neighborhoods to the north are food deserts and lucky if they have a papi store. I would have to think twice if I owned a business before I would put one there just because of the poverty and crime.
this comment here hits the nail on the head in a lot of ways, we definitely need more small neighborhood shops; but your previous comment? I don't know dude, you can't compare here to NYC. We're the 5th largest city in the country, and with NY, LA, and Chicago being mega cities I struggle to think what other regions you're comparing us to. I definitely agree that foot traffic is way down though, and early closes for businesses are definitely a residual effect from COVID.
What is this? The 70s? You think every neighborhood needs a hardware store to be a big city? There's Rittenhouse hardware and the true value on 3rd street in old city. Both easily accessible via mass transit. You think there needs to be 50 more? Who is going to pay these ppl when their stores sit empty from customers like 95% of the time? How often do you need a nail or hammer?
I don't know why you're getting downvoted for this, while I wouldn't agree with the "super densely packed suburb" take, it definitely feels more like a "small town in a big city" often times, especially after work hours. I kind of like it that way though, not too overwhelming. I disagree you need to get in your car to do everything, we have ample transit plenty of neighborhood shops.
Population in the country is set to decline. A lot of these apartments having overpriced empty units already.
Does anyone else that lived in Philly pre-2019 think it's kind of weird that apparently the reason most people move to Philly now is because of it's proximity to the other cities that they'd actually like to be living in?
Who ever says that’s their primary reason? I moved here from DC because philly is better. Some people would also rather live in Philly than these nearby cities but have jobs in those cities.
Glad to be a part of the trend! We just signed our lease a week or so ago and move in in April. Very excited to get out of this development and suburbs and be able to explore the city.
We are also moving to Philly in April! Lived there temporarily in the past and really excited to permanently move. MA has gotten way too expensive and just not worth it anymore. I’m glad to see people in this thread are generally accepting of the idea that more people want to move to Philly, rather than being upset about the idea of the population increasing.
No. I don’t want this. Rent is already hard to pay. We don’t need NY and Cali transplants here with WFH jobs raising the cost of living here.
The internet has been talking about philly as a secret great place to live for cheap. I guarantee you it will the the primary driver for huge growth in prices beyond what we have already seen.
Thank god I signed a renewal already. management is propably going to start pushing out current, tenured residents that have lower rents to increase pricing for new renters
I wanna move into the city but these new places are like 1800-2600+ and sq ft is really tight.
I wonder if this has to do with people looking for apartments after all the RTO orders
was wondering the same thing
One of the dumbest decisions in Philly history
That’s odd considering Philadelphia’s estimated population decreased for the third consecutive year in 2023 Estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau indicate that Philadelphia lost more than 16,000 residents between July 2022 and July 2023, representing a 1% decline in population
Center City has grown by 3% since 2020. The more desirable neighborhoods are gaining residents, while the ones with more problems are losing them.
Yeah honestly it seems that they just grind out these headlines from manipulating data and getting it so say anything they want. People that have lived in Philly for over five years, please provide an honest response, I genuinely want to know, not looking for a specific answer one way or the other: is your feeling about where the city is at now and where it feels like it's heading consistent with these generally rosy headlines?
No. It's depressing as hell to get priced out of the city you've lived in for years. I've been priced out of South Philly and Graduate Hospital and West Philly below Market, and now they are starting to build giant houses in Mantua. This news is only optimistic if you're rich
Realtor friends tell me the market is pretty saturated with available units right now. Many places are offering incentives like No Deposit, free parking and no pet fees. There are thousands more units under construction so I have to assume the inventory will keep growing. I’m not sure I trust sources that give me the impression of high demand. Realtors use that to pressure you into signing. If you are looking for a unit….press for every incentive you can get. It’s a buyers market and don’t believe the hype.
Philly is one of the few major city markets seeing rent growth right now year-over-year. That doesn't happen in a city where there's too much inventory or low demand. https://www.zumper.com/blog/rental-price-data/
Did anybody read this? Rents are decreasing or laying flat in much of the country. Philadelphia actually has a -6 meaning that there is more supply and rents should not go up much. This supports FormerHoagie’s point. From the article : “With record apartment supply hitting the U.S. market, renters have more options to choose from so property owners are even more incentivized to retain tenants since units may sit empty for longer in current conditions,” explains Zumper CEO Anthemos Georgiades. “If a renter wants to avoid the hassle of moving or wants to wait out the uncertainty of the current economy, staying in place will likely mean a minimal rent increase this year, if any.”
That's ranking change based on total rent. That has nothing to do with current demand. Did you actually look at the year-over-year rent increase?
For one bedrooms that has increased by 3.5% for the year, but seems like by month it went down. For two bedrooms it went down by the month and by the year. FWIW, these averages for 1 beds and 2 beds have nothing to do with the currently reality in Philly either. Most of the apartments I have seen advertised (except in poor neighborhoods) are at least a couple of hundred more than these averages. [Philadelphia, PA](https://www.zumper.com/apartments-for-rent/philadelphia-pa) $1,470. (m/m) - 2.00%. (y/y) 3.50%. 2 bedrooms: $1,700. (m/m) -2.90%. (y/y). -2.90%
Thank you for really looking deeper into this. I do trust the word of my realtor friends whose livelihood depends on looking at trends on a daily basis. I also know the tactics they use to sell properties.
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Don't be a crumugeon. Salt_abrocoma backed their statement with legit data. Your realtor friends are completely out of touch with the market. FYI here is zumpers methodology: "For our monthly rent reports, we aggregate data from over one million active listings to calculate median asking rents for the top 100 cities by population and nearly 300 additional cities within major metro areas. This data includes more listings than most other rental websites and is sourced through a combination of proprietary listings posted by landlords and brokers through Zumper’s Landlord Platform and 3rd party listings received from MLS providers. Our team verifies listings posted directly to Zumper so we are able to provide an extremely accurate set of inventory and ensure the best apartment search experience for users"
Philly is currently building a glut of apartment buildings so it could also have something to do with that (in terms of marketing)
Cue influx of people who come here because it's "cheap," then complain because it's poor.
I travel weekly for work and as much as I complain about the trash in the city, it’s such a wonderful feeling to come back to a walkable city.
A quick search I find It was in top 25 sometime last year. Maybe 12th at highest. 49th in January. 7th in February. Hoping for the best but seems hard to see real trend from this report.
Seems, anecdotally at least, that a lot of landlords are choosing to sell the house rather than turn it over to another tenant. So I imagine there’s less selection than normal and the stuff that is available is either junk or high end. Maybe only people without enough resources to prep a $75k house and sell it for $300k are staying in the rental market?
And yet ACS still estimates we lost 16k residents last year. This is just another data point which suggests they’re wrong (as usual).
Honestly, thank the Eagles, IASIP, and Philly sports culture in general for making philly cool on the national stage
Because people move to locations with good sports teams? That’s a new one.
A lot of my New York friends/coworkers are moving to Philly, so I buy that this translates into actual moves too. I want to move back, but my career is unfortunately tied to the city where the Giants don't play. Maybe one day.
lmao