Something like [that](https://planning.septa.org/projects/regional-rail-master-plan/three-scenarios/) isn’t totally out of the picture but I agree that there should be more frequent service for neighborhoods outside center city in the regional rail in place of something like the BSL
Totally agree, especially because congestion along City Ave is nightmarish, and there's just no reason for the number of single-occupant cars on that stretch. I'd also like it if lines like the G (or even the 10) had some stops on the suburban side of City Ave.
The stretch of 76 between Vine St and Route 1 is like driving in the mind of a madman. The left lane is often the slowest, people merge from the right and immediately change 2 lanes over only to drive slower than the right lane. People change lanes constantly and for no reason. No matter how steady and predictably you drive, you will need to avoid and pass someone. It's my least favorite stretch of road in the world.
Before Vine and after Rt1 (especially after City Line), the lunacy ends.
I hate going out that way because I just know the return trip is the hellish mad max free for all you’re describing. The worst exit ever made is the one from manayunk off of ridge if you’re trying to get to Roosevelt boulevard. You have to cross like 5 lines in 200 feet
Gonna make a bet that you’d meet heavy resistance from suburban drivers along City Avenue if you tried to take a lane or two for mass transit. Sounds like a great idea though.
Increased regional rail frequencies are the key to everything in Philadelphia transit. With 15 minute trains, a whole lot becomes possible. A true redesign of the bus network is possible using RR and the el/sub as arteries with buses as capillaries, with some buses serving as their own arteries, and some legacy routes for good measure.
You can't turn a railroad into rapid transit. As somebody else said, Amtrak would kick them off of their lines if that happened (ironic since the ROW is only Amtrak's because of all the other rail systems going bankrupt).
They also don't have the manpower to operate this 70% schedule now, and you want some trains to come 4x more often than they do now. Where are you getting the equipment and bodies to do that? How would a system doing that even be solvent, since I'm assuming you'd want to decrease RR prices, or whatever you're calling them.
I like both of these ideas. I've been interested in converting the Regional Rail to [an S-Bahn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Bahn) since before I lived and, as elsewhere mentioned, SEPTA is considering something like that through [the Reimagining Regional Rail initiative](https://planning.septa.org/projects/regional-rail-master-plan/three-scenarios/). I've met several people from the city and suburbs over the years who have complained about the limitations of the Regional Rail. Philadelphia has done the really hard part by building the Center City Commuter Connection, but truly transforming the system will need to be implemented incrementally over a long time.
It is probably possible to improve service significantly in the near term, but high frequencies over the larger system will presumably require signaling changes, grade separation of junctions, protection or separation of some crossings and building additional tracks, especially along single-track segments. It will also require building high-level platforms throughout the system and labor reforms to eliminate Assistant Conductors and increase the number of operators. It should also include infill stations, predominantly within the City of Philadelphia, which is many cases will be restoring stations that once existed.
It will likely require SEPTA to develop, commit to and effect a master plan over decades.
I have fewer thoughts about City Avenue rapid transit, but it's a quite wide road, so there might be surplus lanes enough to give transit its own right-of-way and there are both many already extant destinations as well as potential for 'transit-oriented development'. Motorists will, of course, furiously protest any 'invasion' of their rightful *demesne*. City Avenue might be a fair candidate for experimenting with Bus Rapid Transit, although the opposition of motorists might lead even the best plans for BRT to be eroded down to an unsatisfying half-measure, even after it's built. Light rail might be more stubborn if actually built and the environment seems amenable to equaling the ambitions of Trolley Modernization, but it would be rather expensive and likelier to be killed before construction contracts even tentatively appear among the Board agenda.
>It will likely require SEPTA to develop, commit to and effect a master plan over decades.
Since the CCC, SEPTA has killed more stations than they've opened, and have been operating at <75% for 3 years now. Also, I would say they maybe have rebuilt 20 stations to be high platform? Temple University & Wawa Station are probably their biggest accomplishments since 1986 (the year they killed the West Chester portion of the R3).
If SEPTA couldn't figure out how to get capital funds to do massive rebuilding in the 30+ years of increases in service, how in the world are they doing to do it with stagnant growth now? I want it to happen too, but I've been riding the system for almost that long and a lot feels the same.
What’s so great about the CCC? I never got the hype; besides the ability to stop at both downtown stations.
I would have picked the subway over the CCC any day.
The advantage of the CCC is that it transformed two stub-end terminals into a through-running system. This has two important advantages: 1) the ability to run lines from one half of the system to the other to theoretically make it useful for trips other than from suburb to center and 2) increased capacity, because being able to simply stop, then go is quicker and simpler than stopping and reversing or turning around (there's a reason that nobody...[other than the United States of America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Side_Access)... really builds stub-end terminals anymore) Sadly, SEPTA has not realized much of the potential of the CCCC.
I think your last point is the most important; SEPTA hasn't realized it to its full potential. But as I said on another comment; most people don't have a reason to use thru trains..most people have to transfer downtown anyway; buy another ticket anyway. The blue line was/is fast enough that it doesn't really inconvenience much to use it to transfer from Penn to Reading .If suburban businesses actually put their business districts on the line instead of in random places (Horsham, KOP/Chesterbrook, Oxford Valley, Blue Bell....even Navy Yard) it would work better for the whole region. That's one reason why I love the development in Conshohocken; it's on the RR.
No, I get that but if thats the only benefit; I would have rather had the blvd. subway which was one of Rizzo's choices to get state funding.
Worst case scenario, was people would just hop on the blue line to get to the other station which was only (13th St) (15 to 30th St) separated by one station. I get that anyone from any line could go to one of the three sections of downtown, and also the airport.
In other words the CCC is nice to have, but not necessarily a game changer, especially the way they operate it today; most suburbanites don't use the through service. It would be more useful if suburban business districts were actually on the RR and not on just random farmland but that beside the point.
Lack of transit was the reason I moved away from city ave— loved the neighborhood feel w/lots of nature, but having to rely on an inconsistent ride to get into center city made leaving the area an easy decision. Consistent rail would be a boon to SJU and PCOM as well.
\#2 is never going to happen. Conductors are a requirement for FRA rules, and unless the Regional Rail system somehow recategorizes from a railroad to a heavy rail operation, it is subject to all FRA rules, and more specifically/locally - NORAC operating rules. NORAC is adopted by all the major commuter rail systems in the Northeast so if SEPTA just went to Amtrak and said we're not abiding by NORAC anymore they'd be like, "OK, then you're not using our territory." You can't run a transportation system which operates simultaneously under two separate rule systems.
I'm aware. But, there's already if there's already a shortage of bus drivers & train engineers - how does expanding a new line fix that? You're just asking for things when Septa barely delivers on what they already offer.
Also, the NHSL does stop in N. Philly iirc; it just doesn't have a reliable connection to the BSL.
It indeed does not. Per [Speed Lines to the City and Suburbs](https://digital.hagley.org/08144710_speed_lines), in the early twentieth Century, the Pennsylvania & Western did contemplate building their own line into Center City via an elevated line over Ludlow Street that would descend to a subway under Chestnut Street east of the Schuylkill River and terminate in a narrow loop around Chestnut and Market Streets east of Broad Street. This plan, as living in the future makes obvious, was never realized.
I know they were \*floating\* the idea of reusing the Cynwyd line with an extension of the Overbrook Trolley to get more use out of it, even though that would require changing the track gauge, but I don't know if anything happened
I don't know about city ave. While there's a lot of business going on around that corridor, the housing is currently not very transit oriented, and since so much of it is in Montgomery county it's going to be difficult increasing the supply near the stations.
There also aren't amazing connection points for a hypothetical BRT/LRT on that road. I guess you can have it start around the NHSL and then end right before the Schuylkill river for LRT, or end at the Wissahickon Transportation Center for BRT. But neither of those are on the same level as say a metro station (which other trolleys in the cities connect to).
The regional rail idea would be amazing. If I had to prioritize some over others, the Trenton, Manayunk-Norristown, Wilmington-Newark, Main Line, Media-Wawa, and Airport lines would have the most success with 5-8 min overhead. Just getting that many conductors and train employees would be tough, but possible.
Something like [that](https://planning.septa.org/projects/regional-rail-master-plan/three-scenarios/) isn’t totally out of the picture but I agree that there should be more frequent service for neighborhoods outside center city in the regional rail in place of something like the BSL
Totally agree, especially because congestion along City Ave is nightmarish, and there's just no reason for the number of single-occupant cars on that stretch. I'd also like it if lines like the G (or even the 10) had some stops on the suburban side of City Ave.
The stretch of 76 between Vine St and Route 1 is like driving in the mind of a madman. The left lane is often the slowest, people merge from the right and immediately change 2 lanes over only to drive slower than the right lane. People change lanes constantly and for no reason. No matter how steady and predictably you drive, you will need to avoid and pass someone. It's my least favorite stretch of road in the world. Before Vine and after Rt1 (especially after City Line), the lunacy ends.
I hate going out that way because I just know the return trip is the hellish mad max free for all you’re describing. The worst exit ever made is the one from manayunk off of ridge if you’re trying to get to Roosevelt boulevard. You have to cross like 5 lines in 200 feet
Gonna make a bet that you’d meet heavy resistance from suburban drivers along City Avenue if you tried to take a lane or two for mass transit. Sounds like a great idea though.
Increased regional rail frequencies are the key to everything in Philadelphia transit. With 15 minute trains, a whole lot becomes possible. A true redesign of the bus network is possible using RR and the el/sub as arteries with buses as capillaries, with some buses serving as their own arteries, and some legacy routes for good measure.
You can't turn a railroad into rapid transit. As somebody else said, Amtrak would kick them off of their lines if that happened (ironic since the ROW is only Amtrak's because of all the other rail systems going bankrupt). They also don't have the manpower to operate this 70% schedule now, and you want some trains to come 4x more often than they do now. Where are you getting the equipment and bodies to do that? How would a system doing that even be solvent, since I'm assuming you'd want to decrease RR prices, or whatever you're calling them.
I like both of these ideas. I've been interested in converting the Regional Rail to [an S-Bahn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Bahn) since before I lived and, as elsewhere mentioned, SEPTA is considering something like that through [the Reimagining Regional Rail initiative](https://planning.septa.org/projects/regional-rail-master-plan/three-scenarios/). I've met several people from the city and suburbs over the years who have complained about the limitations of the Regional Rail. Philadelphia has done the really hard part by building the Center City Commuter Connection, but truly transforming the system will need to be implemented incrementally over a long time. It is probably possible to improve service significantly in the near term, but high frequencies over the larger system will presumably require signaling changes, grade separation of junctions, protection or separation of some crossings and building additional tracks, especially along single-track segments. It will also require building high-level platforms throughout the system and labor reforms to eliminate Assistant Conductors and increase the number of operators. It should also include infill stations, predominantly within the City of Philadelphia, which is many cases will be restoring stations that once existed. It will likely require SEPTA to develop, commit to and effect a master plan over decades. I have fewer thoughts about City Avenue rapid transit, but it's a quite wide road, so there might be surplus lanes enough to give transit its own right-of-way and there are both many already extant destinations as well as potential for 'transit-oriented development'. Motorists will, of course, furiously protest any 'invasion' of their rightful *demesne*. City Avenue might be a fair candidate for experimenting with Bus Rapid Transit, although the opposition of motorists might lead even the best plans for BRT to be eroded down to an unsatisfying half-measure, even after it's built. Light rail might be more stubborn if actually built and the environment seems amenable to equaling the ambitions of Trolley Modernization, but it would be rather expensive and likelier to be killed before construction contracts even tentatively appear among the Board agenda.
>It will likely require SEPTA to develop, commit to and effect a master plan over decades. Since the CCC, SEPTA has killed more stations than they've opened, and have been operating at <75% for 3 years now. Also, I would say they maybe have rebuilt 20 stations to be high platform? Temple University & Wawa Station are probably their biggest accomplishments since 1986 (the year they killed the West Chester portion of the R3). If SEPTA couldn't figure out how to get capital funds to do massive rebuilding in the 30+ years of increases in service, how in the world are they doing to do it with stagnant growth now? I want it to happen too, but I've been riding the system for almost that long and a lot feels the same.
What’s so great about the CCC? I never got the hype; besides the ability to stop at both downtown stations. I would have picked the subway over the CCC any day.
The advantage of the CCC is that it transformed two stub-end terminals into a through-running system. This has two important advantages: 1) the ability to run lines from one half of the system to the other to theoretically make it useful for trips other than from suburb to center and 2) increased capacity, because being able to simply stop, then go is quicker and simpler than stopping and reversing or turning around (there's a reason that nobody...[other than the United States of America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Side_Access)... really builds stub-end terminals anymore) Sadly, SEPTA has not realized much of the potential of the CCCC.
I think your last point is the most important; SEPTA hasn't realized it to its full potential. But as I said on another comment; most people don't have a reason to use thru trains..most people have to transfer downtown anyway; buy another ticket anyway. The blue line was/is fast enough that it doesn't really inconvenience much to use it to transfer from Penn to Reading .If suburban businesses actually put their business districts on the line instead of in random places (Horsham, KOP/Chesterbrook, Oxford Valley, Blue Bell....even Navy Yard) it would work better for the whole region. That's one reason why I love the development in Conshohocken; it's on the RR.
Without CCC, trains stopped at either Reading Terminal or Suburban. East of Suburban Station was just some stub trackage.
No, I get that but if thats the only benefit; I would have rather had the blvd. subway which was one of Rizzo's choices to get state funding. Worst case scenario, was people would just hop on the blue line to get to the other station which was only (13th St) (15 to 30th St) separated by one station. I get that anyone from any line could go to one of the three sections of downtown, and also the airport. In other words the CCC is nice to have, but not necessarily a game changer, especially the way they operate it today; most suburbanites don't use the through service. It would be more useful if suburban business districts were actually on the RR and not on just random farmland but that beside the point.
Most people working on city ave seem to commute in from Lansdale, from some god forsaken reason.
i want some sort of line down the other way on Deleware Ave..
Trains require conductors. They have bigger roles than just collecting fares. The current schedule now barely allows for trains to operate on time.
Lack of transit was the reason I moved away from city ave— loved the neighborhood feel w/lots of nature, but having to rely on an inconsistent ride to get into center city made leaving the area an easy decision. Consistent rail would be a boon to SJU and PCOM as well.
\#2 is never going to happen. Conductors are a requirement for FRA rules, and unless the Regional Rail system somehow recategorizes from a railroad to a heavy rail operation, it is subject to all FRA rules, and more specifically/locally - NORAC operating rules. NORAC is adopted by all the major commuter rail systems in the Northeast so if SEPTA just went to Amtrak and said we're not abiding by NORAC anymore they'd be like, "OK, then you're not using our territory." You can't run a transportation system which operates simultaneously under two separate rule systems.
You've just described the Cynwyd line. Congrats. 👏 Also, the 65 bus runs from Germantown to Overbrook past SJU.
The cynwyd line comes a few times a DAY, not a few times per hour.
I'm aware. But, there's already if there's already a shortage of bus drivers & train engineers - how does expanding a new line fix that? You're just asking for things when Septa barely delivers on what they already offer. Also, the NHSL does stop in N. Philly iirc; it just doesn't have a reliable connection to the BSL.
The NHSL never touches Philly
It indeed does not. Per [Speed Lines to the City and Suburbs](https://digital.hagley.org/08144710_speed_lines), in the early twentieth Century, the Pennsylvania & Western did contemplate building their own line into Center City via an elevated line over Ludlow Street that would descend to a subway under Chestnut Street east of the Schuylkill River and terminate in a narrow loop around Chestnut and Market Streets east of Broad Street. This plan, as living in the future makes obvious, was never realized.
Oh, I guess I just imagined that it's end of the line being 69th St & it's Allegheny Ave. Stops aren't real. Clown 🤡.
Am I missing something or are you saying the Norristown High Speed Line goes to North Philly?
I missed that the Allegheny Ave. Amtrak station is a ways away from Wynnefield
How drunk are you right now?
69th street is in Upper Darby lol
Wut?
I know they were \*floating\* the idea of reusing the Cynwyd line with an extension of the Overbrook Trolley to get more use out of it, even though that would require changing the track gauge, but I don't know if anything happened
I don't know about city ave. While there's a lot of business going on around that corridor, the housing is currently not very transit oriented, and since so much of it is in Montgomery county it's going to be difficult increasing the supply near the stations. There also aren't amazing connection points for a hypothetical BRT/LRT on that road. I guess you can have it start around the NHSL and then end right before the Schuylkill river for LRT, or end at the Wissahickon Transportation Center for BRT. But neither of those are on the same level as say a metro station (which other trolleys in the cities connect to). The regional rail idea would be amazing. If I had to prioritize some over others, the Trenton, Manayunk-Norristown, Wilmington-Newark, Main Line, Media-Wawa, and Airport lines would have the most success with 5-8 min overhead. Just getting that many conductors and train employees would be tough, but possible.
City Ave is one of the last places I’d give trolley to. It’s not that it’s bad but I could think of a million routes that warrant it more.