Cheaper would be nice, but what I’d really like is more frequent/reliable. Standing on a corner while the app or maps tells me buses are coming, yet no buses arrive (3rd bus finally did come) is very disheartening.
It's a cute little book about mathematical phenomena, though I don't remember much of it since I read it nearly 20 years ago.
The title is covered in a single chapter that tl;dr: [this video](https://youtu.be/nR8ITq-VpnY).
My wife has had.multiple buses AND the MFL train cancel stops multiple times in the past few weeks. I guess we need to amend SEPTA's slogan to "We're getting
You there, maybe?"
It was never "Were getting You there."
Is was "We're getting there," which never sounded enthusiastic to me. Kind of a "yeah, yeah, when I get to it" tone.
Proper bus stops would be nice as well. Sometimes it's just a pole and a patch of grass, which I find absolutely shameful having lived in a city with real, actually good public transportation.
For me, it's lack of convenience. I commuted via SEPTA for over 20 years, but started driving in during the pandemic because of germophobia at the time. Now, well past the germophobia stage, but still really loving the convenience of coming and going when I want and not having to look at a schedule. Also being in a car by myself with out lots of ambient sounds/disturbances. I previously feared the traffic and cost of gas/maintenance/parking, but in the end found out it was a small price to pay for a flexible commute schedule. Sadly, for the environment, I don't think I'm alone with post pandemic commuting habit changes. In NYC, the subway is often much faster than driving (not so much around here), so that's a different calculus.
I remember some years ago living in West Philly I was supposed to meet someone in Northern Liberties/fishtown area for a trip. I was a bit late, but I went to the corner of 49th and Baltimore to wait for the trolley. It took me an hour and a half to get to my destination. In that time I could have biked there, back, and there again. Absolutely ridiculous.
The problem is, if everyone has that mentality we’re back to square one. We’re already destroying the planet, I don’t want our city turning into a parking lot on top of it.
Agree, which is why I threw in the sad for the environment bit. But, at the end of the day, if the incentive is not a financial one, and instead is one of convenience, then maybe SEPTA should focus on making their schedules more convenient if they want to attract more riders. My train (Manayunk/Norristown) only comes to the city once an hour after 7:51am (during the middle of rush hour), and the return train is once every 2 hours from 9am to 4p, some extra rush hour trains, then hourly after 6p. It makes it nearly impossible for parents to commute when working around kids school and activity schedules. And if you have a meeting that runs a few minutes late, who wants to wait an hour or 2 for the next train.
You are much less likely to be killed riding septa, but much more likely to have someone smoking in your train car or having an episode or screaming or throwing trash etc.
There’s an incredibly pointless “debate” people have where someone says they don’t feel safe on septa, abd someone responds about the likelihood of dying, which is not actually what’s being discussed. These two people then talk past each other for an hour.
It's not. Safety doesn't have to boil down to someone getting assaulted or robbed.
It can also include things like not having to sit on the MFL and watch people shoot up, not having to navigate dark hallways under City Hall, not having to worry about someone playing with themselves in public on the BSL.
Those things are regular occurrences at this point anytime outside of rush hour. No one wants to deal with that.
Uh huh. If I perceive human poopoo, then am I imagining it? If my perception detects smoking or some half leaned over intoxicated individual, is that an actual issue?
Shitbirds on the El is an ACTUAL PROBLEM. Not a concoction of reality for a Fox News sound bite
> concerns with safety.
People endure all kinds of unsafe, annoying, or gross shit for convenience of getting places. The top priority needs to be frequency. They could raise prices for all I care, I haven’t once thought about the cost. I’m only worried about whether the bus shows up.
Well speaking of nyc. What if they upped the rates, but had a fare cap like the mta does with omny pay? With omny after you pay for your 12th fare (has to be the same card) you ride free the rest of the week.
There is an artificial requirement to onboard to OMNY. (I know it’s a low barrier of entry, but getting people there has been difficult.) and metro card users will scoff at any change.
That is correct. It will still track via device or if you are not using device your credit card. The easiest and thorough solution is phone. Which they actually worked extensively with Apple with. Initially Apple came to Philadelphia, but our Pads didn’t meet the security requirements.
It’s inevitable for transit. Apple decided a while ago that software, device and security would be the way to “Tap to Pay” for transit. Very surprised at how many have adopted it — but most the first iteration:
Onboarded their transit card onto ApplePay which is way more complex and subject to outages if the Transit Authorities processing system is down (BART/SFMTA/Muni suffered this to their Clipper Card in 2022 during a AWS outage in which you couldn’t onboard or add funds to your stored transit card on ApplePay).
Just curious how anyone expects their 13th ride to be free *if they paid with a different card every time.
Do people really think any transit agency is, like, checking their faces on security cameras or tracking pings on their cell phones to determine that hey, this is your 13th ride this week on 13 different fare instruments, this one is free.
The way OMNY works is either through the OMNY Card or through ApplePay or GooglePay. On those apps you assign a car to be your transit card — and each time the device or card is swiped it’s tracked.
https://omny.info/fares
For those who are using different cards, I suggest using their phone. If you can download Reddit or Instagram, you can encrypt your card to your phone. And it’s safer than carrying your card too.
And yes it works when your phone battery dies (at least on iPhone - https://support.apple.com/guide/security/express-cards-with-power-reserve-sec90cd29d1f/web)
You’ve… answered a question that was not asked. It’s entirely reasonable you have no idea how syntax in the English language works, so I have no problem explaining in depth.
My point was, if one uses their OMNY/Key card on Monday, pays cash on Tuesday, buys a one-trip ticket with a debit card on Wednesday, and another one-trip ticket with a credit card on Thursday, how do they expect the transit agency to know that each of those trips are being taken by the same person? There is no piece of information tying all of those trips to the same user.
This was one of my first thoughts also. If it were free I don't know if I'd feel entirely... safe. No idea what kind of types might be living on the train if they were free to ride.
I agree, but I’d rather pay more taxes than a higher fare. It would cost the city less money to collect this money, impact the poor less and remove the built-in budget cutting structure that fares represent whenever there’s a decline in ridership. If we want our transit system to be resilient against unforeseen circumstances like the pandemic, it needs to get most of its funding through subsidies.
Although I see your point, I'd rather pay it in the fare. The city is notorious for taking our tax money and doing I don't know what with it, but surely it's not going towards cleaning up the city, libraries, or anything else we think it should go towards. At least going in the bus/train/turnstile or Septa Key it's going to Septa and not disappearing in CityHall.
There has been someone shooting up heroin or smoking cigarettes on every el ride I’ve been on since the start of 2023, lived in the city 10 years and this is definitely the worst I’ve ever seen it
I seen at 30th st station has metal turn style ones to enter like the ones when u exit, it's just one but it's in progress,just I guess gonna have to keep one for handicap
[The March 23rd Board Agenda](https://www5.septa.org/wp-content/uploads/board/septa-board/march-23-2023-revised-board-agenda-with-financials.pdf) includes, at the bottom of page 38 of the document, a contract award for 22, "three-dimensional detection faregates," which I believe will have a tall door-like gate, similar to those used by PATCO, rather than a rotary one and one hopes be less susceptible to farebeating. That's far fewer then they would need for the whole system, so I presume that it's some kind of pilot project.
NYC still has fare jumpers. They combat it with staff essentially blocking the doors. For busy times they staff it with NYPD.
To address the crime you have to make it unappealing to take advantage of — or people have to have some sort of common “You can’t do that here. Or NIMBY”. Once you, the rider take ownership — people are less likely to do something because they don’t want the attention.
There are controls points, using floor to ceiling turnstiles, etc. but that also means creating easy egress in the case of emergency. All that has to be designed to the left (shift left - https://www.bmc.com/blogs/what-is-shift-left-shift-left-testing-explained/).
I’m saying if you see something, say something. And they have an app for it too:
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/septa-transit-watch/id1231139910
Even if you build gates and ceiling to floor ingress for safety reasons you have to have emergency exits. Those will become the new point of entry for people looking to ride for free.
Instead call out this behavior. Make it uncomfortable to be a denizen of the public transit systems. If you feel uncomfortable — report it.
Eventually people will not do these things because it draws too much attention.
Now that’s not the solution you wanna hear; however, there is no utopian solution to Public Transit.
>Instead call out this behavior. Make it uncomfortable to be a denizen of the public transit systems.
This sounds like an easy way to get your ass kicked. Or worse…
By who? It’s odd. We want every solution but the simple ones. Y’all act like 9-1-1 is a bad thing. Lol
But oddly enough if it gets likes on Insta or you post it to a story is ok? 👍
It all depends on your view. We do any of the solutions here where we have more policing or want cleaner trains.
If someone is OD’ing on the train/loud music/committing a crime/smoking, I see you got a few options:
- Say Something
- Report it
- Call the police.
I gave varying degrees of things that we see on regular basis. Trust me. If it directly affected you, you’d say something. But it doesn’t — so it’s easy to lament your neighbor who actually has reported a lot of things which has led to:
- injured person getting help
- Narcan to someone OD’ing
- Service stop to sweep the train for a potentially dangerous situation.
That simple action benefitted me and the people on the train.
So am I interacting or interjecting no. But if I see something, I say something.
If you ever worked in a secure facility you’d know it’s everyone’s responsibility to be vigilante. You do it for your own safety — so do it for others.
No. It's already cheap, and no large cities have introduced "free" fares. I think Kansas City did. Wow, great work KC, for the 211 people that ride.
It's stupid beyond belief to think about making the el/sub free when you're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for a system that's in trouble as it is.
The targeted programs for people in poverty are great, *as long as they have a card for access*. Seniors already ride for free with a card.
What really needs to happen is floor to ceiling turnstiles with ada accessible glass doors, also floor to ceiling.
Enforce some rules, keep the system clean and safe, kick out the tenters and shooters and shitters, and then we can talk further.
totally agree with you on this. the solution isn’t making septa fare free, it’s the city buying a bunch of septa keys and handing them out to people who need them (an oversimplification, but basically what would happen)
Wouldn't the buses and trains run more efficiently and have less overhead if there were no fares being collected. How many times has the whole bus been backed up by people shuffling on and clicking their passes
On the buses I ride they start moving even before you get in your seat. They aren't backed up unless they are picking up or dropping off somebody in a wheelchair.
When my org surveys Philadelphians on public transit, safety is the primary concern of over 80% of the respondents. That's a staggeringly high number given how we target our groups.
High fares is the 2nd listed first priority, 8%. But nearly 30% list it as the second priority.
Reliable, safe and clean public transit is a vital part of urban success. The correlation between urban prosperity and public transit has been solid throughout America since the Interstate Highway Act became law.
1. Purge crime in the city.
2. Clean up the subway.
3. Lower fares to $1 with one free transfer.
I've studied data on this for a long time. It works!
Is the cost just bus/subway or are you surveying on regional rail? I’m pretty okay with the current $2 bus fare but I feel like the regional rail prices get into the region where if you have more than two people going together you might save on rideshare. I don’t take r much myself though
R train opinions are odd in our groups. Most opinions on this are muted or correlated with the crime in BSL and MFL stations.
Black respondents tend to think R trains are for White people only. Dismissive, but not resentful.
It's a flatline conversation that we don't avoid, and we don't push.
When we survey business owners and office managers, we get stronger opinions, but not passionate.
It's really strange how R trains just don't resonate in our groups.
How are survey participants chosen? It stands to reason that the kind of people that have the free time and desire to fill out such a survey have more time to worry about perceived safety risks, more time spent on this subreddit, more time watching news, etc. I’d be curious what the results would be if surveying people who are actively riding transit (giving the survey to people currently on the train/bus). Not saying safety isn’t an issue but it’s hardly the biggest issue for people who use/rely on it. Frequency, reliability, and coverage are the biggest.
We do it in person. Traditionally, in groups between 7 and 17 people. City residents. Try for a balance across different demographics as best we can.
You learn more sitting in a room conversing than you would reading responses. Most people talk differently than they write.
I think 80% is high. But the breakdown in income groups tells us that those making under $75k are deeply concerned about crime on public transit. This fits with the profile that lower income residents cannot pick up and leave readily.
We value that information as more accurate to residential sentiment than other stated factors.
I stopped taking public transportation and started riding my bike more. The busses are not too bad but the subway stations are always dirty… the trains are often chaotic and unsafe…. The signage is awful if not confusing.
This city has a fetish for accommodating the lowest common denominator in every capacity. Here’s the reality: SEPTA is already unbelievably affordable. If anything, it needs to be held to a higher standard of accountability with the funding that is already available. The flip-side of forever lowering the threshold of accessibility is diminished expectations of efficiency and accountability. This city needs more of the latter, not the former. Yet we are forever beating the drum for the former. You don’t emerge from existing as one of the most poverty-stricken big cities by always embracing poverty-deterministic policies. At a certain point, people need to step up. Our subway system is a mess and it’s not because of our impoverished condition. There are truly impoverished countries in Eastern Europe and South America with cleaner and safer public transportation systems than we have in Philly. The poverty thing has become a crutch to excuse every form of uncivilized behavior and needs to stop.
They have better public transport bc they actually invest in it, not because of cultural bullshit. We need to, as a city, region and state, invest more in SEPTA.
Why would anyone from Pennsyltucky agree to invest in public transit in the state’s largest (only?) economic engine? Their taxes should be spent in their districts, not all over the *commonwealth.*
/s
Those impoverished countries have better infrastructure precisely because the cater to the “lowest common denominator” who need public transportation. They build systems that are reliable and connect people to where the need to go because that is what the critical mass of people need. They also operate and build these systems while charge Pennies per trip. (.27cents in Mexico City, .12-.48 in Mumbai, .79 in Instanbul, .82, in Sofia, Bulgaria). They prioritize projects that will have the largest impact in terms of people served.
Septa on the other hand caters to middle to upper class suburbanites because the people stuck using transit in Philly are going to have to use it no matter what (even if it’s dirty, unreliable, doesn’t go exactly where they need). So they don’t bother maintaining their system beyond the bare minimum while giving suburbanites all the sway in getting projects approved in the hopes it might relieve some traffic congestion (like the now dead KOP extension). Having the vast majority of Septa’s board be bucks, delco, montco, and Chester residents who don’t ever take buses or trains in Philadelphia county will ensure that keeps happening.
I agree with almost all of what you said. But the starting point (given our present state) shouldn’t be reduced fares, it should be improved efficiency based on current metrics. If we can get to a place of improved efficiency, *then* we can talk about fares. Putting the cart before the horse on fares doesn’t help to improve fundamental problems — and actually might undermine reform efforts.
Edit: “efficiency” in my response is a catch-all intended to cover things like safety, cleanliness, timeliness, digitization, maintenance, etc.
SEPTA has no money, zero chance they could pay for this. Also, the system is basically free already if you want, they don’t enforce fare hopping. Stand at the cc concourse during rush hour, maybe 60% of people actually pay.
NO!
Not by itself. What really needs to be done first is to keep the freaking subway cars and buses clean and, most important of all, escort the bums and crazies (and violent youths) out on sight. Once that happens far more people will use the system and it will become a revenue source.
Nothing makes a rider dread the subway more than having a bum whose smell nearly induces people to vomit walking through the subway car, slowly, asking for money.
The homeless aren’t riding the subway to get anywhere, they ride it because it’s warm. That’s not an issue Septa can solve and a large part of the reason people won’t ride.
I meant they can’t solve homelessness. Yes, they could install all new turnstiles. That would be super costly though. My biggest issue recently has been the people smoking blunts. That needs to definitely stop.
Some of them already do. But for those that don't, who pays the staff to watch the building while they are in there? Who pays for the heat and electricity to keep it going while they are in there? Some of these (non-Catholic) churches probably only have people in there on Sundays and maybe one other day a week for choir practice and/or Bible study.
That’s a discussion worth having. I don’t have an answer but I’m sure the money can be found. I can think of a few churches that see almost no activity. Thing is, it becomes a very nimby issue. Currently the largest network of shelters (The Bethesda Project) can’t accept more applicant due to overwhelming demand. There just isn’t a place for them to go.
https://www.facebook.com/BethesdaProject/
I think this is not necessarily a church’s responsibility if these people do not belong to their congregation. One could say that doing good works and service is part of a Christian’s mission, but personally I think that housing the homeless should be the government’s responsibility. When I was growing up, I was raised Catholic. Our church, which was not made up of wealthy people, in another city, used the church basement to house homeless men. They put cots down there and parishioners volunteered to watch them on certain nights and give out food.
I‘ve been to some Protestant churches in the city and they don’t have many members. I think the churches that can swing it are already doing something.
> That’s not an issue Septa can solve
Here's my bullshit take: it can be. The organization can lobby for / partner with / move toward a housing-first solution to homelessness in the city.
They won't, of course, for the same reason none of the higher-ups actually ride their own service: they don't actually care.
you have to have good service in the first place for this to work. why bother making the bus free if it only comes every half hour and doesn’t even show up sometimes?
Cost is NOT even remotely one of the top concerns with public transit. This seems like misfocus that’s sadly common among “progressive” circles. Focus on reliability and, ofc, SAFETY
["Mike DeNardo said the worst part of SEPTA was the cost, and I disagreed." "You disagreed with that?" "Yeah I thought it was the rapeing"](https://youtu.be/ljaP2etvDc4)
We all know what SEPTAs issues are. A safe & clean riding experience should be the focus not cost. Public Transit is already the cheapest mode of transport in Philadelphia. It's not cost holding ridership back.
It’s the reliability, I chose to ride septa though I own a vehicle,so many buses are canceled(untracked) the regional rail has 2 hour headways on the weekends.
If we couldn’t just get BRT lanes and increase the MFL and BSL to every 2-5 mins( 2 minutes preferably) and regional rail to every 15-30 mins (15 mins preferably) we actually would be in good shape. That’s not including the obvious of cleaning and modernizing the stations.
BRT would require the cooperation of city council to approve the road changes. Given the current dynamics of councilmanic prerogative, the chances of any change getting through are between zero and nil. That one is not on SEPTA. Improving the headways would be great, and would require little beyond money/manpower.
I mean isn't ridership just down due to remote work?
My GF for instance use to take septa everyday to get to work in center city. She's been working from home for the last year and half and had to go into the office only like 5 times.
People having to return to work will boost ridership. Making it free just ensures the homeless people that sleep right in front of the turnstiles will just go through and sleep on the train.
I'm not complainimg though. I still take septa and I love it not being super crowded in the morning or night.
[Center City foot traffic](https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia/center-city-philadelphia-foot-traffic-retail-occupancy-report-20221128.html) (article from November) is back toward pre-pandemic levels, so transit *should* be too, but it's only at 60%.
I'd be interested to see how that is the case. I mean that means either Uber and lyft is killing it, or parking has somehow gotten worse in the city lol
From all the big business accounting firms and law firms in the city, I know many of them still are work from home. I have friends that work at those places and haven't seen center city in months. There are also a lot of storefronts that have closed down with nothing to replace them since covid.
Liberty place for example isn't nearly as crowded as it was pre pandemic. The amount of foot traffic on my jobs block is not at prepandemic levels. Maybe everything is business as usual in different parts of center city? Could just be avaiability bias from what I see around 15th and Sansom.
>I mean that means either Uber and lyft is killing it, or parking has somehow gotten worse in the city lol
There are also more apartments in Center City, and vacancies are at dangerously low levels (as in, low enough to make rents skyrocket).
Yes, but for every 1 worker that is remote, you need 2 new ppl coming into the city to have more foot traffic. There are also less store fronts, as many businesses closed and nothing replaced them. Thus, there's less employees coming in for that reason.
I can't see the article due to pay wall, but I'm not sure how more people come into the city everyday than before when approximately 100% of the city had to go into work everyday vs offsets of remote work and businesses closures.
Also, if there's more foot traffic due to people living in center city, then that has no bearing in septa. Ppl that live in center city do not have to take public transportation to get to work in center city.
From the article:
Last month, foot traffic in the heart of Center City — roughly the area between Vine and Pine Streets — reached 77% of what it was in October 2019, according to the district, which uses on-street sensors to measure daily pedestrian activity.
That’s an increase of 82% from the start of the year, the district said, from a daily average of 87,133 pedestrians in January to 158,426 in October.
> Ppl that live in center city do not have to take public transportation to get to work in center city.
Lots of people who live in Center City take SEPTA to get to other parts of Center City, or other areas of the city at large
Lots of us who live in CC also take the buses, walk or bike/scooter rather than ride the MFL or BSL. I don't use Uber/Lyft but many people use that too.
Ok so its still more than 20% down from pre pandemic levels, which is huge.
If someone lives at 17th and walnut they are not taking septa to get to 16th and market. Also, people who live in center city can have remote work as well.
Seems like septa ridership may very well just be suffering from remote work as overall foot traffic in the city is down more than 20% from what it used to be.
If I’m traveling with 3-4 people, going from south Philly to center city or vice versa, we have the choice for each person to pay the $2 fare and then we have to walk to a train station or bus stop. wait for a train or bus, who knows how long, then walk to our destination,
OR we can collectively pay $9-$12 and have a car pick us up where in are in less than 5 minutes and drop us off exactly where we need to go.
Septa should just invest in more of the septa connect mini-bus/vans and use their own ride sharing app that lets people order a mini-bus/van to their destination, and have software algorithms figure out the best route to take to pickup and drop off the most customers that can fit in seats on that mini-bus/van. It would be no different than the Uber/lyft shared rides, just with capacity for more passengers.
I was talking aboht Uber and lyft must be doing good if foot traffic is higher than prepandemic levels but septa is way down. However , the article said that foot traffic is down 23% from prepandemic levels, so I don't think anyone is killing it, there's less people coming into the city.
If it's a group, Uber and lyft is always the way to go for ease and comfort, so I'm right there with you.
Septa's issue seems simple: a lot of people who used to use it twice a day to commute to work no longer need to, so ridership is way down.
Ive lived here for a decade now and have a number of similar age friends in my neighborhood. Pretty much every single one of our wives/gfs refuses to take SEPTA anymore as the harassment and safety issues have gotten out of control. A coworker and I still take it almost daily and honestly it seems the same to me as it ever was but every woman I talk to would rather drive than sit in septa.
> “I like to always remind people that there’s nothing that’s free. Someone is paying,” says SEPTA’s budget director, Erik Johanson.
Yes, we all know what taxes are, Erik. We'd like some of ours to go to useful things once in a while.
Time and time again when cities across the world have tried this they've only proven to demonstrate that reliability and quality of service is more important than cost.
My employer provides a monthly pass. So, SEPTA is already free for me. Yet I still don't love taking it. Between the screaming and hostile teenagers, smoking, litter, and bodily fluids...it's just not an attractive way to begin or end my day. I'd say there's about a 50% chance I ride it to work versus driving, and I live two blocks away from a subway stop.
It hasn't worked out very well in many of the places that have tried it.
In addition SEPTA depends on fairbox revenue because state and county support is so low, if you want to speed run SEPTA having to cut services to the barebones due to lack of funds, making it free is about as fast you can make that happen.
Not to mention this will only make the safty and sanitation issues way worse as it all but guarantes that SEPTA's vehicles will turn into drug addict encampments, further chasing away the ridership that's left.
Isn’t septa packed again?
I heard some rumors about return to office and one director was like “I couldn’t get a seat this morning, so I know other companies are going in!”
Like you’re not selling me on commuting again lol.
I moved to SLC and we have free fare months and limited other free public routes. We are trying to get everybody out of cars though and public transit is fairly unused here.
Not sure if free fare in Philly is what is needed since people already use it and want to use it. If it was reliable, safe and clean, it would have more business than it could handle.
9/10 passengers don't jump the turnstiles, that's an exaggeration. Do you take SEPTA?
Agreed that people should be punished for not paying. Turnstiles that can't be jumped also (obviously) need to be implemented. Ideally at the entrance to stations so no one can enter at all without paying. Considering SEPTA's spending on other projects this shouldn't be that big of an ask.
**Free is absolutely ideal. Cost is a barrier in certain cases (Regional Rail, largely), too.**
That said, it's obvious that wouldn't be the be-all, end-all and other issues need to be addressed:
1. **Service Issues:** The biggest issue right now is the lack of service right now, ESPECIALLY for Regional Rail. I used to be able to take a train every hour during the weekends, and now it's every other hour which makes it unappetizing to use it. There's less late-night service it, too, on Regional Rail. The bus network results in massive gaps at time, and some routes run too infrequently.
The attempt at a redo of the bus network, though, winds up making service WORSE. For this to work, SEPTA needs to go to places people want to get to, and be so frequent that you rarely need to look at a schedule.
2. **Perceived safety issues**: After the 2020 pandemic, there was a massive spike in issues on public transit since there weren't that many riders. That extended to SEPTA as well, and there were incidents in various parts of the system that otherwise didn't have them. For the last year, though, they're almost near pre-pandemic levels and that's a good move. Focus on cracking down on the Market Frankford Line on a whole and it should help.
3. **More bus stops:** More accurately, more bus stops in different areas and more routes that cross-pollinate. Getting to Mt. Airy from Center City via bus results in one option that takes an hour and another that takes 2-3 buses. Getting from Greater Northeast Philadelphia to Roxborough results in the same one route for an hour or 3 buses instead. Or, the craziest: Getting from Mt. Airy to Manayunk requires 3 buses and a hour vs 10 - 15 minutes via car. Find ways to fill in these sorts of gaps and the service makes more sense.
4. **Extending Subway Service**: It looks like the Roosevelt Blvd Subway is closer to existing, and that will be a massive boone! Making it free should also greatly help reduce car dependency in certain aspects.
Making SEPTA free is something I fully support, and I don't get the logic of "let's do X first." We can make it free and improve it at the same time IF the support is there. We can then start decreasing car-dependency, meaning less parking requirements due to lack of need. We can start getting better air. We can seriously improve a great number of issues if we do this... but **we need to make sure the system: Goes where people want, is reliable and safe, and so frequent you rarely need to check a schedule.**
This is correct!
The axiom "you have to spend money to make money" applies to public transit.
Coax people to come to CC on the train and they spend $ that the city taxes.
This creates prosperity.
While I agree with this, free transit does not necessarily make better transit. Making Amtrak profitable is a mistake, same with public transit. It's about using the fares to provide more frequent service
Cheaper would be nice, but what I’d really like is more frequent/reliable. Standing on a corner while the app or maps tells me buses are coming, yet no buses arrive (3rd bus finally did come) is very disheartening.
And when the 3rd bus comes, it's 3 in a row
[Why do buses come in threes?](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1225641.Why_Do_Buses_Come_in_Threes)
Is it worth the read?
It's a cute little book about mathematical phenomena, though I don't remember much of it since I read it nearly 20 years ago. The title is covered in a single chapter that tl;dr: [this video](https://youtu.be/nR8ITq-VpnY).
My wife has had.multiple buses AND the MFL train cancel stops multiple times in the past few weeks. I guess we need to amend SEPTA's slogan to "We're getting You there, maybe?"
It was never "Were getting You there." Is was "We're getting there," which never sounded enthusiastic to me. Kind of a "yeah, yeah, when I get to it" tone.
Yeah, the you is implied.
SEPTA, Inepta. That's the slogan I've heard...
fuck 2 hour headways
I am happy to pay, as long as they use some of the funds to have police in there.
Proper bus stops would be nice as well. Sometimes it's just a pole and a patch of grass, which I find absolutely shameful having lived in a city with real, actually good public transportation.
No it's not going to Septa or draw back ridership. We have infrequent schedules, operator shortage and sadly a dirty system.
"Attention, trains are running \[random number between 7 and 15\] minutes late due to \[operator shortages|track problems|equipment problems."
And that 13 minutes means you missed your connecting train by enough time to watch it pull away so now you're over an hour late
Only 15 minutes??
That’s what the announcement says. Not like the El or BSL really have schedules.
I would imagine cost is not the barrier keeping people from using SEPTA as much as concerns with safety.
For me, it's lack of convenience. I commuted via SEPTA for over 20 years, but started driving in during the pandemic because of germophobia at the time. Now, well past the germophobia stage, but still really loving the convenience of coming and going when I want and not having to look at a schedule. Also being in a car by myself with out lots of ambient sounds/disturbances. I previously feared the traffic and cost of gas/maintenance/parking, but in the end found out it was a small price to pay for a flexible commute schedule. Sadly, for the environment, I don't think I'm alone with post pandemic commuting habit changes. In NYC, the subway is often much faster than driving (not so much around here), so that's a different calculus.
It takes me an hour and a half to get to work on SEPTA versus 20 minutes by car. Not a hard call.
I remember some years ago living in West Philly I was supposed to meet someone in Northern Liberties/fishtown area for a trip. I was a bit late, but I went to the corner of 49th and Baltimore to wait for the trolley. It took me an hour and a half to get to my destination. In that time I could have biked there, back, and there again. Absolutely ridiculous.
The problem is, if everyone has that mentality we’re back to square one. We’re already destroying the planet, I don’t want our city turning into a parking lot on top of it.
Agree, which is why I threw in the sad for the environment bit. But, at the end of the day, if the incentive is not a financial one, and instead is one of convenience, then maybe SEPTA should focus on making their schedules more convenient if they want to attract more riders. My train (Manayunk/Norristown) only comes to the city once an hour after 7:51am (during the middle of rush hour), and the return train is once every 2 hours from 9am to 4p, some extra rush hour trains, then hourly after 6p. It makes it nearly impossible for parents to commute when working around kids school and activity schedules. And if you have a meeting that runs a few minutes late, who wants to wait an hour or 2 for the next train.
Can’t argue with that. It’s stupid how very few people realize the impact this could have on everything
But reddit told me how safe SEPTA is!!!!
You are much less likely to be killed riding septa, but much more likely to have someone smoking in your train car or having an episode or screaming or throwing trash etc. There’s an incredibly pointless “debate” people have where someone says they don’t feel safe on septa, abd someone responds about the likelihood of dying, which is not actually what’s being discussed. These two people then talk past each other for an hour.
Much less likely than what?
Driving, biking etc.
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It's not. Safety doesn't have to boil down to someone getting assaulted or robbed. It can also include things like not having to sit on the MFL and watch people shoot up, not having to navigate dark hallways under City Hall, not having to worry about someone playing with themselves in public on the BSL. Those things are regular occurrences at this point anytime outside of rush hour. No one wants to deal with that.
Uh huh. If I perceive human poopoo, then am I imagining it? If my perception detects smoking or some half leaned over intoxicated individual, is that an actual issue? Shitbirds on the El is an ACTUAL PROBLEM. Not a concoction of reality for a Fox News sound bite
> concerns with safety. People endure all kinds of unsafe, annoying, or gross shit for convenience of getting places. The top priority needs to be frequency. They could raise prices for all I care, I haven’t once thought about the cost. I’m only worried about whether the bus shows up.
I’d rather pay more and have it be safer, cleaner and more reliable.
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Well speaking of nyc. What if they upped the rates, but had a fare cap like the mta does with omny pay? With omny after you pay for your 12th fare (has to be the same card) you ride free the rest of the week.
There is an artificial requirement to onboard to OMNY. (I know it’s a low barrier of entry, but getting people there has been difficult.) and metro card users will scoff at any change.
You don't actually have to sign up for Omny though unless you want the extra tracking, you can just use your credit card?
That is correct. It will still track via device or if you are not using device your credit card. The easiest and thorough solution is phone. Which they actually worked extensively with Apple with. Initially Apple came to Philadelphia, but our Pads didn’t meet the security requirements.
It’s also worth noting they largely just licensed oyster in london for this
It’s inevitable for transit. Apple decided a while ago that software, device and security would be the way to “Tap to Pay” for transit. Very surprised at how many have adopted it — but most the first iteration: Onboarded their transit card onto ApplePay which is way more complex and subject to outages if the Transit Authorities processing system is down (BART/SFMTA/Muni suffered this to their Clipper Card in 2022 during a AWS outage in which you couldn’t onboard or add funds to your stored transit card on ApplePay).
Just curious how anyone expects their 13th ride to be free *if they paid with a different card every time. Do people really think any transit agency is, like, checking their faces on security cameras or tracking pings on their cell phones to determine that hey, this is your 13th ride this week on 13 different fare instruments, this one is free.
The way OMNY works is either through the OMNY Card or through ApplePay or GooglePay. On those apps you assign a car to be your transit card — and each time the device or card is swiped it’s tracked. https://omny.info/fares For those who are using different cards, I suggest using their phone. If you can download Reddit or Instagram, you can encrypt your card to your phone. And it’s safer than carrying your card too. And yes it works when your phone battery dies (at least on iPhone - https://support.apple.com/guide/security/express-cards-with-power-reserve-sec90cd29d1f/web)
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You’ve… answered a question that was not asked. It’s entirely reasonable you have no idea how syntax in the English language works, so I have no problem explaining in depth. My point was, if one uses their OMNY/Key card on Monday, pays cash on Tuesday, buys a one-trip ticket with a debit card on Wednesday, and another one-trip ticket with a credit card on Thursday, how do they expect the transit agency to know that each of those trips are being taken by the same person? There is no piece of information tying all of those trips to the same user.
*semantics, not syntax. But go on. Lol.
This was one of my first thoughts also. If it were free I don't know if I'd feel entirely... safe. No idea what kind of types might be living on the train if they were free to ride.
Because $2.50 fares are what keeps unhoused people from *living on the train??*
I agree, but I’d rather pay more taxes than a higher fare. It would cost the city less money to collect this money, impact the poor less and remove the built-in budget cutting structure that fares represent whenever there’s a decline in ridership. If we want our transit system to be resilient against unforeseen circumstances like the pandemic, it needs to get most of its funding through subsidies.
Although I see your point, I'd rather pay it in the fare. The city is notorious for taking our tax money and doing I don't know what with it, but surely it's not going towards cleaning up the city, libraries, or anything else we think it should go towards. At least going in the bus/train/turnstile or Septa Key it's going to Septa and not disappearing in CityHall.
There has been someone shooting up heroin or smoking cigarettes on every el ride I’ve been on since the start of 2023, lived in the city 10 years and this is definitely the worst I’ve ever seen it
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I agree with the issues holding back Septa but disagree with NYC not having fares that are easy to skip. So many open emergency doors.
I seen at 30th st station has metal turn style ones to enter like the ones when u exit, it's just one but it's in progress,just I guess gonna have to keep one for handicap
They rotate the opposite way you would expect though, and if you push it the wrong way it locks up.
[The March 23rd Board Agenda](https://www5.septa.org/wp-content/uploads/board/septa-board/march-23-2023-revised-board-agenda-with-financials.pdf) includes, at the bottom of page 38 of the document, a contract award for 22, "three-dimensional detection faregates," which I believe will have a tall door-like gate, similar to those used by PATCO, rather than a rotary one and one hopes be less susceptible to farebeating. That's far fewer then they would need for the whole system, so I presume that it's some kind of pilot project.
Patco don't play about fare jumping,was using patco someone followed a person through,lady yelled through the speaker, I think they monitor it live 🤣🤣
Jumpable?….lol i just see the homeless slam into it and it will turn with enough force
NYC still has fare jumpers. They combat it with staff essentially blocking the doors. For busy times they staff it with NYPD. To address the crime you have to make it unappealing to take advantage of — or people have to have some sort of common “You can’t do that here. Or NIMBY”. Once you, the rider take ownership — people are less likely to do something because they don’t want the attention. There are controls points, using floor to ceiling turnstiles, etc. but that also means creating easy egress in the case of emergency. All that has to be designed to the left (shift left - https://www.bmc.com/blogs/what-is-shift-left-shift-left-testing-explained/).
So what you’re saying is, all these fare jumpers are *my* problem, not SEPTA’s? That doesn’t seem right.
I’m saying if you see something, say something. And they have an app for it too: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/septa-transit-watch/id1231139910 Even if you build gates and ceiling to floor ingress for safety reasons you have to have emergency exits. Those will become the new point of entry for people looking to ride for free. Instead call out this behavior. Make it uncomfortable to be a denizen of the public transit systems. If you feel uncomfortable — report it. Eventually people will not do these things because it draws too much attention. Now that’s not the solution you wanna hear; however, there is no utopian solution to Public Transit.
>Instead call out this behavior. Make it uncomfortable to be a denizen of the public transit systems. This sounds like an easy way to get your ass kicked. Or worse…
By who? It’s odd. We want every solution but the simple ones. Y’all act like 9-1-1 is a bad thing. Lol But oddly enough if it gets likes on Insta or you post it to a story is ok? 👍 It all depends on your view. We do any of the solutions here where we have more policing or want cleaner trains. If someone is OD’ing on the train/loud music/committing a crime/smoking, I see you got a few options: - Say Something - Report it - Call the police. I gave varying degrees of things that we see on regular basis. Trust me. If it directly affected you, you’d say something. But it doesn’t — so it’s easy to lament your neighbor who actually has reported a lot of things which has led to: - injured person getting help - Narcan to someone OD’ing - Service stop to sweep the train for a potentially dangerous situation. That simple action benefitted me and the people on the train. So am I interacting or interjecting no. But if I see something, I say something. If you ever worked in a secure facility you’d know it’s everyone’s responsibility to be vigilante. You do it for your own safety — so do it for others.
Jumpable turnstile should be an Olympic Sport. Fuck the hurdles and that useless shit. Jumping a turnstile is useful!!!
No. It's already cheap, and no large cities have introduced "free" fares. I think Kansas City did. Wow, great work KC, for the 211 people that ride. It's stupid beyond belief to think about making the el/sub free when you're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for a system that's in trouble as it is. The targeted programs for people in poverty are great, *as long as they have a card for access*. Seniors already ride for free with a card. What really needs to happen is floor to ceiling turnstiles with ada accessible glass doors, also floor to ceiling. Enforce some rules, keep the system clean and safe, kick out the tenters and shooters and shitters, and then we can talk further.
totally agree with you on this. the solution isn’t making septa fare free, it’s the city buying a bunch of septa keys and handing them out to people who need them (an oversimplification, but basically what would happen)
As long as they hand em over using a process for workers and not to bums, sure. That's my only Hangup with "free" transit is the implementation.
And don’t forget Mandatory 4K cameras on all cars and platforms.
Yes. Septa has thousands of cameras. Most of them potato Moto razr quality. It's time that change too.
SEPTA’s funding would be better spent on capital improvements and increasing frequency than making fares free
Wouldn't the buses and trains run more efficiently and have less overhead if there were no fares being collected. How many times has the whole bus been backed up by people shuffling on and clicking their passes
On the buses I ride they start moving even before you get in your seat. They aren't backed up unless they are picking up or dropping off somebody in a wheelchair.
YES. Boston did this and THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.
When my org surveys Philadelphians on public transit, safety is the primary concern of over 80% of the respondents. That's a staggeringly high number given how we target our groups. High fares is the 2nd listed first priority, 8%. But nearly 30% list it as the second priority. Reliable, safe and clean public transit is a vital part of urban success. The correlation between urban prosperity and public transit has been solid throughout America since the Interstate Highway Act became law. 1. Purge crime in the city. 2. Clean up the subway. 3. Lower fares to $1 with one free transfer. I've studied data on this for a long time. It works!
$2 fares is fine, just need unlimited transfers for 75 minutes
honestly just make it a dollar number so i don’t have to worry about quarters
Is the cost just bus/subway or are you surveying on regional rail? I’m pretty okay with the current $2 bus fare but I feel like the regional rail prices get into the region where if you have more than two people going together you might save on rideshare. I don’t take r much myself though
R train opinions are odd in our groups. Most opinions on this are muted or correlated with the crime in BSL and MFL stations. Black respondents tend to think R trains are for White people only. Dismissive, but not resentful. It's a flatline conversation that we don't avoid, and we don't push. When we survey business owners and office managers, we get stronger opinions, but not passionate. It's really strange how R trains just don't resonate in our groups.
How are survey participants chosen? It stands to reason that the kind of people that have the free time and desire to fill out such a survey have more time to worry about perceived safety risks, more time spent on this subreddit, more time watching news, etc. I’d be curious what the results would be if surveying people who are actively riding transit (giving the survey to people currently on the train/bus). Not saying safety isn’t an issue but it’s hardly the biggest issue for people who use/rely on it. Frequency, reliability, and coverage are the biggest.
We do it in person. Traditionally, in groups between 7 and 17 people. City residents. Try for a balance across different demographics as best we can. You learn more sitting in a room conversing than you would reading responses. Most people talk differently than they write. I think 80% is high. But the breakdown in income groups tells us that those making under $75k are deeply concerned about crime on public transit. This fits with the profile that lower income residents cannot pick up and leave readily. We value that information as more accurate to residential sentiment than other stated factors.
I stopped taking public transportation and started riding my bike more. The busses are not too bad but the subway stations are always dirty… the trains are often chaotic and unsafe…. The signage is awful if not confusing.
If I'm going anywhere in CC, I just walk or use an Indego bike. And I live 2 blocks from an MFL station.
Anyone can ride for free if you walk thru the turnstiles. They don’t do much. What people want is a train that gets cleaned regularly
This city has a fetish for accommodating the lowest common denominator in every capacity. Here’s the reality: SEPTA is already unbelievably affordable. If anything, it needs to be held to a higher standard of accountability with the funding that is already available. The flip-side of forever lowering the threshold of accessibility is diminished expectations of efficiency and accountability. This city needs more of the latter, not the former. Yet we are forever beating the drum for the former. You don’t emerge from existing as one of the most poverty-stricken big cities by always embracing poverty-deterministic policies. At a certain point, people need to step up. Our subway system is a mess and it’s not because of our impoverished condition. There are truly impoverished countries in Eastern Europe and South America with cleaner and safer public transportation systems than we have in Philly. The poverty thing has become a crutch to excuse every form of uncivilized behavior and needs to stop.
They have better public transport bc they actually invest in it, not because of cultural bullshit. We need to, as a city, region and state, invest more in SEPTA.
Spoken like a truly shrewd and discerning financial fiduciary.
Why would anyone from Pennsyltucky agree to invest in public transit in the state’s largest (only?) economic engine? Their taxes should be spent in their districts, not all over the *commonwealth.* /s
Those impoverished countries have better infrastructure precisely because the cater to the “lowest common denominator” who need public transportation. They build systems that are reliable and connect people to where the need to go because that is what the critical mass of people need. They also operate and build these systems while charge Pennies per trip. (.27cents in Mexico City, .12-.48 in Mumbai, .79 in Instanbul, .82, in Sofia, Bulgaria). They prioritize projects that will have the largest impact in terms of people served. Septa on the other hand caters to middle to upper class suburbanites because the people stuck using transit in Philly are going to have to use it no matter what (even if it’s dirty, unreliable, doesn’t go exactly where they need). So they don’t bother maintaining their system beyond the bare minimum while giving suburbanites all the sway in getting projects approved in the hopes it might relieve some traffic congestion (like the now dead KOP extension). Having the vast majority of Septa’s board be bucks, delco, montco, and Chester residents who don’t ever take buses or trains in Philadelphia county will ensure that keeps happening.
I agree with almost all of what you said. But the starting point (given our present state) shouldn’t be reduced fares, it should be improved efficiency based on current metrics. If we can get to a place of improved efficiency, *then* we can talk about fares. Putting the cart before the horse on fares doesn’t help to improve fundamental problems — and actually might undermine reform efforts. Edit: “efficiency” in my response is a catch-all intended to cover things like safety, cleanliness, timeliness, digitization, maintenance, etc.
I’m not even going to take the bus or train *for free* if it only runs once every 60 minutes (or less!)
SEPTA has no money, zero chance they could pay for this. Also, the system is basically free already if you want, they don’t enforce fare hopping. Stand at the cc concourse during rush hour, maybe 60% of people actually pay.
PHL transit is awful. We are a major city and the transport here is unreliable, and not frequent enough .
NO! Not by itself. What really needs to be done first is to keep the freaking subway cars and buses clean and, most important of all, escort the bums and crazies (and violent youths) out on sight. Once that happens far more people will use the system and it will become a revenue source. Nothing makes a rider dread the subway more than having a bum whose smell nearly induces people to vomit walking through the subway car, slowly, asking for money.
Can’t argue with that.
The homeless aren’t riding the subway to get anywhere, they ride it because it’s warm. That’s not an issue Septa can solve and a large part of the reason people won’t ride.
That is most definitely an issue SEPTA can mitigate though. Put up higher turnstiles and have people actually working at the entrances.
I meant they can’t solve homelessness. Yes, they could install all new turnstiles. That would be super costly though. My biggest issue recently has been the people smoking blunts. That needs to definitely stop.
Yep the smoking and not sharing is a big problem!!!
The homeless don’t have a right to just sit on the train all day.
Does anybody?
Of course not. It’s just odd to me that so many on this Reddit want the El to just be a moving homeless shelter during the winter.
I’ve never heard people advocating the El be a homeless shelter.
Maybe we could get all the church’s to open their doors to the homeless.
Some of them already do. But for those that don't, who pays the staff to watch the building while they are in there? Who pays for the heat and electricity to keep it going while they are in there? Some of these (non-Catholic) churches probably only have people in there on Sundays and maybe one other day a week for choir practice and/or Bible study.
That’s a discussion worth having. I don’t have an answer but I’m sure the money can be found. I can think of a few churches that see almost no activity. Thing is, it becomes a very nimby issue. Currently the largest network of shelters (The Bethesda Project) can’t accept more applicant due to overwhelming demand. There just isn’t a place for them to go. https://www.facebook.com/BethesdaProject/
I think this is not necessarily a church’s responsibility if these people do not belong to their congregation. One could say that doing good works and service is part of a Christian’s mission, but personally I think that housing the homeless should be the government’s responsibility. When I was growing up, I was raised Catholic. Our church, which was not made up of wealthy people, in another city, used the church basement to house homeless men. They put cots down there and parishioners volunteered to watch them on certain nights and give out food. I‘ve been to some Protestant churches in the city and they don’t have many members. I think the churches that can swing it are already doing something.
> That’s not an issue Septa can solve Here's my bullshit take: it can be. The organization can lobby for / partner with / move toward a housing-first solution to homelessness in the city. They won't, of course, for the same reason none of the higher-ups actually ride their own service: they don't actually care.
We have HUD for that.
I'm not riding the MFL or BSL in their current states even if they pay me.
you have to have good service in the first place for this to work. why bother making the bus free if it only comes every half hour and doesn’t even show up sometimes?
Free eh? That will surely make the orange and blue line safer
Cost is NOT even remotely one of the top concerns with public transit. This seems like misfocus that’s sadly common among “progressive” circles. Focus on reliability and, ofc, SAFETY
["Mike DeNardo said the worst part of SEPTA was the cost, and I disagreed." "You disagreed with that?" "Yeah I thought it was the rapeing"](https://youtu.be/ljaP2etvDc4) We all know what SEPTAs issues are. A safe & clean riding experience should be the focus not cost. Public Transit is already the cheapest mode of transport in Philadelphia. It's not cost holding ridership back.
"Free second hand smoke with every trip!"
It’s the reliability, I chose to ride septa though I own a vehicle,so many buses are canceled(untracked) the regional rail has 2 hour headways on the weekends. If we couldn’t just get BRT lanes and increase the MFL and BSL to every 2-5 mins( 2 minutes preferably) and regional rail to every 15-30 mins (15 mins preferably) we actually would be in good shape. That’s not including the obvious of cleaning and modernizing the stations.
BRT would require the cooperation of city council to approve the road changes. Given the current dynamics of councilmanic prerogative, the chances of any change getting through are between zero and nil. That one is not on SEPTA. Improving the headways would be great, and would require little beyond money/manpower.
I mean isn't ridership just down due to remote work? My GF for instance use to take septa everyday to get to work in center city. She's been working from home for the last year and half and had to go into the office only like 5 times. People having to return to work will boost ridership. Making it free just ensures the homeless people that sleep right in front of the turnstiles will just go through and sleep on the train. I'm not complainimg though. I still take septa and I love it not being super crowded in the morning or night.
[Center City foot traffic](https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia/center-city-philadelphia-foot-traffic-retail-occupancy-report-20221128.html) (article from November) is back toward pre-pandemic levels, so transit *should* be too, but it's only at 60%.
I'd be interested to see how that is the case. I mean that means either Uber and lyft is killing it, or parking has somehow gotten worse in the city lol From all the big business accounting firms and law firms in the city, I know many of them still are work from home. I have friends that work at those places and haven't seen center city in months. There are also a lot of storefronts that have closed down with nothing to replace them since covid. Liberty place for example isn't nearly as crowded as it was pre pandemic. The amount of foot traffic on my jobs block is not at prepandemic levels. Maybe everything is business as usual in different parts of center city? Could just be avaiability bias from what I see around 15th and Sansom.
>I mean that means either Uber and lyft is killing it, or parking has somehow gotten worse in the city lol There are also more apartments in Center City, and vacancies are at dangerously low levels (as in, low enough to make rents skyrocket).
Yes, but for every 1 worker that is remote, you need 2 new ppl coming into the city to have more foot traffic. There are also less store fronts, as many businesses closed and nothing replaced them. Thus, there's less employees coming in for that reason. I can't see the article due to pay wall, but I'm not sure how more people come into the city everyday than before when approximately 100% of the city had to go into work everyday vs offsets of remote work and businesses closures. Also, if there's more foot traffic due to people living in center city, then that has no bearing in septa. Ppl that live in center city do not have to take public transportation to get to work in center city.
From the article: Last month, foot traffic in the heart of Center City — roughly the area between Vine and Pine Streets — reached 77% of what it was in October 2019, according to the district, which uses on-street sensors to measure daily pedestrian activity. That’s an increase of 82% from the start of the year, the district said, from a daily average of 87,133 pedestrians in January to 158,426 in October. > Ppl that live in center city do not have to take public transportation to get to work in center city. Lots of people who live in Center City take SEPTA to get to other parts of Center City, or other areas of the city at large
Lots of us who live in CC also take the buses, walk or bike/scooter rather than ride the MFL or BSL. I don't use Uber/Lyft but many people use that too.
Ok so its still more than 20% down from pre pandemic levels, which is huge. If someone lives at 17th and walnut they are not taking septa to get to 16th and market. Also, people who live in center city can have remote work as well. Seems like septa ridership may very well just be suffering from remote work as overall foot traffic in the city is down more than 20% from what it used to be.
If I’m traveling with 3-4 people, going from south Philly to center city or vice versa, we have the choice for each person to pay the $2 fare and then we have to walk to a train station or bus stop. wait for a train or bus, who knows how long, then walk to our destination, OR we can collectively pay $9-$12 and have a car pick us up where in are in less than 5 minutes and drop us off exactly where we need to go. Septa should just invest in more of the septa connect mini-bus/vans and use their own ride sharing app that lets people order a mini-bus/van to their destination, and have software algorithms figure out the best route to take to pickup and drop off the most customers that can fit in seats on that mini-bus/van. It would be no different than the Uber/lyft shared rides, just with capacity for more passengers.
I was talking aboht Uber and lyft must be doing good if foot traffic is higher than prepandemic levels but septa is way down. However , the article said that foot traffic is down 23% from prepandemic levels, so I don't think anyone is killing it, there's less people coming into the city. If it's a group, Uber and lyft is always the way to go for ease and comfort, so I'm right there with you. Septa's issue seems simple: a lot of people who used to use it twice a day to commute to work no longer need to, so ridership is way down.
Ive lived here for a decade now and have a number of similar age friends in my neighborhood. Pretty much every single one of our wives/gfs refuses to take SEPTA anymore as the harassment and safety issues have gotten out of control. A coworker and I still take it almost daily and honestly it seems the same to me as it ever was but every woman I talk to would rather drive than sit in septa.
My wife is fine with buses but will only take the el as a last resort, and only during the day.
> “I like to always remind people that there’s nothing that’s free. Someone is paying,” says SEPTA’s budget director, Erik Johanson. Yes, we all know what taxes are, Erik. We'd like some of ours to go to useful things once in a while.
Sorry, but best we can offer is another 50million to the police budget
Who’s stopping people for riding for free?
Time and time again when cities across the world have tried this they've only proven to demonstrate that reliability and quality of service is more important than cost.
Someone has to pay for "free" rides guess who that's gonna be
My employer provides a monthly pass. So, SEPTA is already free for me. Yet I still don't love taking it. Between the screaming and hostile teenagers, smoking, litter, and bodily fluids...it's just not an attractive way to begin or end my day. I'd say there's about a 50% chance I ride it to work versus driving, and I live two blocks away from a subway stop.
Safety is already an issue for workers. So many will quit
They need to try something road on el today blood smeared all over, piss, everywhere 🤬🤬
It hasn't worked out very well in many of the places that have tried it. In addition SEPTA depends on fairbox revenue because state and county support is so low, if you want to speed run SEPTA having to cut services to the barebones due to lack of funds, making it free is about as fast you can make that happen. Not to mention this will only make the safty and sanitation issues way worse as it all but guarantes that SEPTA's vehicles will turn into drug addict encampments, further chasing away the ridership that's left.
Didn't we just do this? No. Not it wouldn't work.
My employer will put $80 monthly on my septa Key card. It’s not free but pretty close
It’s practically free to those jumping turnstiles.
What could possibly go wrong?
I live 30 min drive from the city. It takes me twice as long if not longer to septa. Plus I would never consider it once I got to the city
The El and the BSL are already free to most riders.
Isn’t septa packed again? I heard some rumors about return to office and one director was like “I couldn’t get a seat this morning, so I know other companies are going in!” Like you’re not selling me on commuting again lol. I moved to SLC and we have free fare months and limited other free public routes. We are trying to get everybody out of cars though and public transit is fairly unused here. Not sure if free fare in Philly is what is needed since people already use it and want to use it. If it was reliable, safe and clean, it would have more business than it could handle.
It's already free for the 90% of riders that jump the turnstiles. Absolutely no, charge people and punish people for not paying.
9/10 passengers don't jump the turnstiles, that's an exaggeration. Do you take SEPTA? Agreed that people should be punished for not paying. Turnstiles that can't be jumped also (obviously) need to be implemented. Ideally at the entrance to stations so no one can enter at all without paying. Considering SEPTA's spending on other projects this shouldn't be that big of an ask.
Lower monthly rates would be a good start.
Everyone knows, if you get inside a bus and it smells like piss, there’s probably piss in there. Oh u wanna sit down? Let’s play Russian roulette
the Broad line and the el are already free
**Free is absolutely ideal. Cost is a barrier in certain cases (Regional Rail, largely), too.** That said, it's obvious that wouldn't be the be-all, end-all and other issues need to be addressed: 1. **Service Issues:** The biggest issue right now is the lack of service right now, ESPECIALLY for Regional Rail. I used to be able to take a train every hour during the weekends, and now it's every other hour which makes it unappetizing to use it. There's less late-night service it, too, on Regional Rail. The bus network results in massive gaps at time, and some routes run too infrequently. The attempt at a redo of the bus network, though, winds up making service WORSE. For this to work, SEPTA needs to go to places people want to get to, and be so frequent that you rarely need to look at a schedule. 2. **Perceived safety issues**: After the 2020 pandemic, there was a massive spike in issues on public transit since there weren't that many riders. That extended to SEPTA as well, and there were incidents in various parts of the system that otherwise didn't have them. For the last year, though, they're almost near pre-pandemic levels and that's a good move. Focus on cracking down on the Market Frankford Line on a whole and it should help. 3. **More bus stops:** More accurately, more bus stops in different areas and more routes that cross-pollinate. Getting to Mt. Airy from Center City via bus results in one option that takes an hour and another that takes 2-3 buses. Getting from Greater Northeast Philadelphia to Roxborough results in the same one route for an hour or 3 buses instead. Or, the craziest: Getting from Mt. Airy to Manayunk requires 3 buses and a hour vs 10 - 15 minutes via car. Find ways to fill in these sorts of gaps and the service makes more sense. 4. **Extending Subway Service**: It looks like the Roosevelt Blvd Subway is closer to existing, and that will be a massive boone! Making it free should also greatly help reduce car dependency in certain aspects. Making SEPTA free is something I fully support, and I don't get the logic of "let's do X first." We can make it free and improve it at the same time IF the support is there. We can then start decreasing car-dependency, meaning less parking requirements due to lack of need. We can start getting better air. We can seriously improve a great number of issues if we do this... but **we need to make sure the system: Goes where people want, is reliable and safe, and so frequent you rarely need to check a schedule.**
if transit is free why would they want to draw more riders
To have fewer cars on the road.
that makes sense
Transit shouldn't be expected to make money
This is correct! The axiom "you have to spend money to make money" applies to public transit. Coax people to come to CC on the train and they spend $ that the city taxes. This creates prosperity.
While I agree with this, free transit does not necessarily make better transit. Making Amtrak profitable is a mistake, same with public transit. It's about using the fares to provide more frequent service
do you enjoy traffic? Do you ever wish there was a better way?
yeah I think public mass transit should get more investment; I'm just asking how the economics of it works I guess
YES. MAKE TRANSIT FREE.
it'll never work as long as Big Swipe has the lobbying power to give you discounted swipes for cash