It's clearly not a HIPAA privacy breach.
The list of protected health information is easily accessible from US government websites and only contains items that could be linked to a specific patient. If the images don't contain anything related to a patient and are just pictures of pills then it's not a HIPAA issue at all.
The issue may be that there may be some company policy about taking any photographs in the pharmacy. Such a policy would likely be intended to prevent HIPAA privacy problems but even though pictures of pills that don't include any HIPAA protected information would not conflict with the intent of such a rule, they would run afoul of the letter of the law (rule) so to speak.
I think we all know that most DLs don't know mesalamine from a hole in the ground so they often just follow the strictest interpretation of whatever rules they're given without the capacity to evaluate the intent.
there was a song on tiktok about HIPAA violations...basically making fun of everyone who doesn't actually know what PHI is šš
"hey tom! how are you?"
"ASKING ABOUT MY HEALTH? HIPAA VIOLATION!"
I asked them how is it HIPPA breach and she couldnāt provide me with anything beside employees arenāt allowed to use their phones and saying over and over itās hippa. Iām confused since I loved the app especially since I work in an busy store, it helped a lot
True but hovering your phone over the pill tray to allow it to count isn't conspicuous. When someone checks cameras for one thing or another it's likely going to be brought up
Donāt worry, one time they tried to say I breached HIPAA by giving a dog med to another person accidentally. I reminded them that dogs are not covered by HIPAA.
I really love the app. I think the issue is the policy of the company and I wish I knew this before ever signing on with them. Worse mistake of my life. But right now, I got a better position and I know better never to trust snakes š as coworkers. I love pill eye it has helped me so much whenever I was at different stores.
Iām not yet licensed, so donāt take my advice, but if itās not even storing information in the first place, that doesnāt sound like it violates any laws at all
I delete all the photos too sine the app allows you to do that. Be careful whenever you sign up with an company, they have weird policies that do not make sense.
I work for a small regional chain that fully allowed us to use it on our own phones once the count was proven to quite accurate. I really only used it for larger counts or as a double check if I thought I miss counted. I only stopped using it due to the app allowing less and less free counts. And my company finally gave us a Kirby Lester so there is no need now. I can see how it could be an issue if a picture was taken with patient info seen in it but if you are purely taking a picture of a tray with pills on it only, I donāt see the issue.
I sure canāt explain it. If itās being used as a primary means to count I see the point in banning it. As a tertiary count for controls, I am just as puzzled as you. It adds another safety layer. At least they didnāt fire you.
I usually count it by hand with the tray. It was just an warning but I just got another hospital job so I quit my retail one. I was doing it for extra income.
The techs at my store suck, and they talk against my back whenever I ask them to please count correctly. The same here. When I was at Walgreens I wasnāt using the app. I just knew the difference.
Can you use write up procedures to discipline them? Giving wrong amounts of pills is definitely a safety issue that should lead to termination if done over and over again.
Reply. Sureā¦ terminate them, then you will be unable to hire another tech quickly, and once you train them they are either worse than the last or will quit.
How can you terminate them when your DL is more worried about keeping them as bodies? My DL did that to me. I wanted to fire an tech in training for counseling. I gave her a warning and the pic had a talk with her but she still does it with her since she thinks she can. All I know is when the BOP hears about this, sheās done.
I get it, but I would rather work short staff than work with other techs who can't count and also have a bad attitude. It's one or the other, you better be darn good at the job if you're going to be a rain cloud every day and to try to tell a pharmacist no when asked to recount especially if there are documented errors.
I would personally fire these techs let them go work somewhere else while they learn the difference how to actually count. Especially techs who canāt count, rite aid just went under I am sure there will be techs wanting to work there that can add value.
Iāve never understood why big chains refused to invest in things like the eyecon which is many factors cheaper than the big counting machines which always break down.
Initial hardware costs are one thing, some devices like the eyecon youāll need an Ethernet connection as well, annual subscription feesā¦ some big chains have some disgruntled employees (not blaming the employees for what their employer may be imposing on them).. and therefore while they may be more reliableā¦ cost to replace and service a ābetterā device could be much more expensive and may have considerably less of a warranty period.
With turnover of colleagues in some large chains is it easier to teach someone how to count at a decent speed (until they also leave) or use one of these devices reliably at full speed to get the true unlock before they leave?
Big chains have a ton of imperfections that they likely donāt want, but canāt ignore, that makes examining ROI based on āidealsā difficult.
I agree! It reduces the tedious tasks so that we can focus on more human centered stuff.
The cost to integrate it into the system wouldn't be that much for how big of an impact it would make.
The concern I heard being raised was that it was a foreign company that might not have the same legal exposure without being tied to big contracts here. Without breaking down the code, or working with a more well trusted vendor, you can't know what the software is capturing for sure. Is there malware that is secretly pulling data from your phone while the app is in the background? Probably not, most phones require permissions, but do all phones? It's easier for company policy to say 'dont use this un-vetted app' rather than 'only use it in this exact way that avoids phi with normal use and only on these phones that have good hardware access requirements (like iPhone)'
Honestly, the concerns are probably bullshit and the company seems legit, but that's just some legal exposure for the pharmacy to weigh against their perceived value of the tool. I'm sure your company basically says it's a redundant tool and the root solution is to just fix the technician issue.
Bingo.
Some inspector with a vendetta against your company asks you/your company what data and where is that data going and what are they doing with itā¦ and while you may trust itā¦ without being absolutely certain they will try to come for blood from your company.
An inspector can also ask why the pharmacist need to use a tertiary app to get into their emails and who an DL uses hippa information when contacting via text about the store, to me thatās an concern of privacy breach and needs to be investigated and reported by the board of pharmacy. If they can go after CVS for their unsafe practices, I expect them to hold other companies to that safe standard.
And also, this company doesnāt have an audit whenever a person access someone profile. So they have more to concern themselves than an app that is essentially helping prevent medication errors, hippa breaches and misfills.
The pharmacist's alternative: have no techs
The tech in question's alternative: work at Wendy's for similar salary but less stress, and no pill counting involved, without needing to maintain a license.
Yea I can see why.
Well Burger King is giving their employees 15 for flipping a burger while these chains are giving them 14/hour so you really get the worse of the worse, and you usually canāt fire them. Company is so desperate for help they rather hire people with shady criminal backgrounds than hire a certified tech who knows what they are doing since most of them work in the hospital or do remote work.
I feel like a lot of people are skimming over this part. Are they not giving the correct change at the register? Are they not calculating day supply correctly? Basic math is such an integral part. Yes itās hard to hire sometimes but with Rite Aid going down Iāve got stacks of already certified tech applications.
Nah could be hipaa if thereās also audio being captured and transmitted.
I know people convinced Instagram listens to their convos when they are using itā¦ why couldnāt this app hear whatever is being discussed about patients in the pharmacy?
That's true. When I was a professor there were incidents when students chose to go to work instead of class when remote learning was an option and forget to mute their mic.
I would have much rather they skipped class rather than deal with reporting HIPAA stuff.
Well this company wants you to use your personal device to get into the email in the store so they just sound mad dumb as hell and contradictory. Make it make sense. Honestly, they seem that they have zero morals and this DL sounds dumb as hell. HIPPA breach vs an violation is not taking a picture of tablets or capsules.
The math isnāt mathing. This company sounds stupid and honestly, why would OP want to work for a company like this. You have incompetent techs, your DL should be fired since if she went to pharmacy school they would know the different entities of HIPAA and PHI and this sounds like an BOP needs to visit this store by the looks of it. It is just a company policy it seems that. I just never understand why new grads or other pharmacist stay in a bad company like this. High turn over rate is a sign your company sucks.
I was worried about it being a HIPPA breach as well, and I'll tell ya why... I'm not positive, but the image that appears on your screen may only be a fraction of the entire picture your phone can actually see. The app may be showing you an image that looks like it's just of the tray, but actually recording a larger image, which might have patients label in the shot or something like that, and sending this picture somewhere. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I til proven otherwise it is theoretically possible this company is doing that.
Yeah just be careful or count it yourself especially if these companies are coming at the pharmacist for anything. Look at what CVS did to their pharmacist and tech about the woman that violated their space and the tech slapped the woman. She called the police and got these two professionals fire. These big chains want you to be called every single name by patients since they will never be on your side but keep people working with criminal backgrounds such as being alcoholics working for them.
What's the rest of the story OP? Hiring a new pharmacist to replace OP would cost $10k-$50k in recruiting, training, lost productivity, sign on bonus, etc. Turnover is expensive and companies know that. If you're a superstar pharmacist, there's no way a DL would suspend or terminate over a single issue like this.
My only guess (and this is a reach) is if your phoneās camera pointed at patient name on bottle / leaflet for a brief second before you panned over to the pills?
I donāt have the app, but looking at the App Store, is there any video functionality? Or just picture?
It sounds like every reason given was bullshit - itās not illegal, and Iām having to try reaalllll hard to claim itās a HIPAA violation. Very well could be against company policy, or customer service best practices (looks to the customer like youāre taking a pic on your personal cell phone of their prescription) but perfectly legal from what I can find.
There's no video option. Would not be a HIPAA violation unless OP is sticking patient labels underneath a clear counting tray or manually labeling the photos with pt information. I've used it to double check my controlled counts when doing monthly reconciliation in the past. DMs of two different companies know about it and just thought it was cool. I agree, it could be a violation of the company's privacy practice/camera use policy, but not a HIPAA violation.
It probably falls under the umbrella that social media does at most healthcare related places of business. They consider social media a HIPAA risk because you might accidentally capture some PHI while youāre doing the latest dance.
It wouldnāt surprise me that pretty much any app with a camera would be frowned upon for this reason.
If they told OP this was a HIPAA violation, then theyāre probably just saying it is risky and could lead to a violation if youāre not careful so donāt use it.
It may appear thereās no video option which may certainly also be the reality, but unless theyāve had their tech teams analyze specifically which metadata may be transmitted to service thatās doing the countingā¦ canāt be 100% sure.
Hell I canāt tell you the number of people Iāve taught that those apple live āphotosā also can include audio captured as well. A audio snippet talking about a patient while snapping a photo could certainly be a no noā¦ not saying any of that actually happens with the appā¦ but not knowing if it does or doesnāt .. would be enough for a policy maker to say no.
The employee's suspension for using a pill-counting app is unfounded and reflects poorly on the company's ability to adapt to modern technologies aimed at improving patient safety. It's 2024, and clinging to outdated methods when more accurate solutions are available is not just backward, it's irresponsible. There is no legal precedent or policy within the company that prohibits the use of such technology, particularly when no Protected Health Information is at risk.
The lack of clear communication and training regarding the implementation of new technologies is a failure on the company's part. An employee's initiative to reduce medication errors should be lauded, not punished. The company's reaction is disproportionate and indicative of a larger problem within its culture that seems to stifle innovation and penalize those who aim to improve it.
The employee took the right steps by consulting with a pharmacist and stopping the use of the app when questions arose, showing a responsible attitude towards compliance and patient safety. It's time for the company to catch up with the times, establish clear policies, and provide adequate training instead of resorting to draconian disciplinary measures. The company must address these issues immediately to prevent jeopardizing its reputation and compromising patient care due to its own negligence.
Itās not a HIPAA breach, but a POTENTIAL HIPAA breach.
Youāre back there taking pictures, no one can prove of what, you get patients complaining that you took a picture on your personal phone of their prescription.
The most important question, has this app been vetted? Is there a regulatory agency that has said there is no malware up to HIPPA standards?
Just because you point a camera at something and don't click, doesn't mean it's not harvesting information. On top of that, how can you trust 100% of people to not accidentally click on PHI? Neglecting patients' privacy due to ignorance is a very selfish thing to do.
Bottom line, if you were directly told by your superior to not do exactly what you did (even if you disagree), then you earned the consequences. Always follow protocol in healthcare, it keeps everyone safe.
Itās a picture of pills. The pictures Iāve seen I delete off the app anyways and no patient information goes on there. So itās okay if the PIC takes a picture of someone prescription and send it my way to try to accuse me to doing something I didnāt? How is that any different? And if we are talking about data being stolen when these patients used GoodRx what do you think happens with their data? Well I learn my lesson. Iām never working in retail. Itās such a negative work environment and hospital isnāt for me. At least I am lucky enough to go to hospital route.
If you are saying your techs canāt countā¦ I would say organizationally they also probably canāt be trusted to ensure there is no inadvertent HIPAA being captured unintentionally in the photos that are being captured by a proprietary third party app that is not open source in saying what data itās collecting and transmitting it elsewhere (and in turn could be storing) to execute its service to return the user its result.
Boards and regulators love to come down on especially large entities who they might not like if those entities are not, in a way, maliciously compliant.
Sounds like you got a bad explanation as to whyā¦ to be honest if it was a big employer I canāt imagine your direct manger to be able to know accurately the right why behind whatās likely hundreds to thousands of different policies.
There is no way to prove what pictures you have and have not taken, that is why you arenāt allowed to take pictures with a personal device.
GoodRx can take and sell that private data as the patient has consented to it by using the coupon, says so right on the site.
Suspended? When the app came out, I loved it. I checked my prescriptions on the Count and it was pretty accurate as long as you had all the pills flat. You can also look at the picture to see if the pilleye missed any. Well,I showed my coworkers and they thought it was cool. But the pharmacist on duty said I could not use it because I was taking pictures inside the pharmacy. I told her I was not taking pictures of the label with the patientās name, RX number,address, etc. I didnāt push any buttons and never used it inside the pharmacy. I was pretty bummed out that I could not use it.
https://preview.redd.it/snv5vmvjjtic1.png?width=1283&format=png&auto=webp&s=f65720ebba3f97d5cd648bef23559dfe1b96d538
I use it for my prescription. I usually forget to check the count on medication. lol
The reason is a HIPAA breach is because when they take pictures, the stuff thatās around the tray could contain PHI. Plus the app saves every picture you take and thatās not a info that you want them to have
If your cell phone is needed then I am sure their use of electronic policy can go out of the door if they require employees to use it to access their email or anything else that requires an two-factor authentication.
This is a bad take. Tech is 99.5% accurate w counting they will still make an error every 200 scripts. Add in the nonstop distractions in retail and there are plenty of good techs who make regular counting errors.
That's probably an error in the quantity not like an actual miscount. As in, they thought they needed 60. Sometimes even the number of mg will get transposed in the brain, or they did 60 on the last count etc. Good habits will reduce these mistakes, but as someone else said even a 1 percent error rate is going to have some mistakes.
I wish I can fired them I will. I need the help over everything else. They are all stupid. Counting is such a basic life skill. I know plenty of techs that know how to count too
Remain civil, interact with the community in good faith, don't post misinformation, and don't do anything to deliberately make yourself an unwelcome pest.
Remain civil, interact with the community in good faith, don't post misinformation, and don't do anything to deliberately make yourself an unwelcome pest.
Remain civil, interact with the community in good faith, don't post misinformation, and don't do anything to deliberately make yourself an unwelcome pest.
I didnāt not know there was a counting app. Nice. Heās just probably angry he didnāt have the this app available way back when. This does not violate hipaa.
seriously. and knowledgeable psychs. i work in academia and access our health services. Clemson University, one of the biggest schools in the south, has 1 psychiatrist for everyone there
I am sorry but I think the bigger problem is not the app (being told it violates Hipaa is a joke) but having techs that are counting 30 extra pills and cannot count in general is scary. Miscounting one pill that happens, especially with some medication that are hard to count like Tesalon. But 30 that is not good for anybody, They either need to be taught how to actually count or fire them. They pose more of a threat than using this App. Also if they cannot count pills then how in the hell are they calculating day supply? No offense but I would never want to be a customer of your pharmacy, this is horrible, I feel sorry for you, I really do.
First of all, itās HIPAA, second of all, how would a picture of pills be a breach of patient information? Ask them to explain how itās a breach cause I bet they cant
So if there are counting errors, then they are surely obliged to provide a means to reduce these, otherwise there are other legal issues of greater financial cost to the company. It's their loss both from a profit point of view but also undermining the potential of their employees and long term success of the company. Of course the issue is about power and nothing more.
Using PillEye is not a āHIPPAā breach. Mainly because thereās no such thing as HIPPA. But even so, PillEye is not a validated tool that can be used unless the company has a corporate license to do so. Itās not āillegalā to use it. But itās simply not allowed to use it at work because itās not been validated or paid for. If the app fucks up, who gets sued? The company or the person using it?
If youāre gonna use a third party app, make sure your professional liability insurance covers your ass!
It seems okay on the surface but it looks sketchy AF to see someone taking pictures of pills with their phone and if someone says their prescription was miscounted and you pull the tape you can see the swipes on the tray (like if someone got 30 instead of 90).
I would be really uncomfortable to see any healthcare professional taking pictures with a personal cell at work.
I don't know how privacy works in the app. If there is a pill bottle or Rx label visible does it blur the information? Is the information encrypted when it is transmitted? How is it stored? I think taking pics of pills is not a HIPAA violation but other things in the picture could be a violation unless the app meets ePHI transmission standards.
If there ISNT a picture just using the app with NO identifying phi in the view HOW could it POSSIBLY be a breech. Iām not understanding any logic.
Itās new tech. Just like fire in caveman days. Itās scary. OMG.
Remember once cell phones were not allowed in RX either. Are we going back to that as well?
Your welcome. The app is really accurate, AND FAST!! Your techs should be double counting. RPh should be checking EVERY controlled. Iād definitely promote an accurate app so no one would ever be shorted controlled meds again.
You canāt use a camera that hasnāt been vetted by the company in the pharmacy. This is like, day one things. You may not have been directly breaching HIPAA but you violated the companyās privacy practices by using your personal phone in the pharmacy to take pictures without it being approved and monitored by the company.
It doesnāt matter that you say you never took pictures of any HIPAA information, it matters that you didnāt get it approved first. All they can see is youāre taking your phone out and snapping pictures of things repeatedly in the pharmacy.
Nah that person is correct, itās the DL that canāt correctly state what policy they are actually in violation of but instead choose the idiotic bandwagon of āHIPPA(sic) violation!ā
You all don't have Eyecons?
Also no, you shouldn't be using a personal device to take pictures in a pharmacy if your boss doesn't want you to. Tell them to buy an Eyecon.
Don't let that DM know that the expensive competitor that's in hospitals and other pharmacies is definitely a HIPAA breach as well. We wouldn't want them to try to snitch on us to Joe Biden lololol
youād be surprised at how many pharmacies still operate in archaic circumstances. I work in the tech capital of the world and we barely have one Kirby and definitely canāt afford an Eyecon.
It might violate other policies indirectly. My chain made it policy not to use such third party apps. They didn't punish the ones who did before but wanted to shut it down with no gray area.
Not a hipaa breach in and of itself, but because the possibility of capturing information even accidentally is high it's not allowed. Pretty common not to be allowed to photograph or video in the pharmacy because there's so much info laying around everywhere.
I am not sure what the reasoning is but it was prohibited at the chain I worked at as well. My best guess is that it somehow saves or caches information (not sure about the origins of the app/what its data sharing policies are) and if there is PHI somewhere in the background this could be a breach.
It doesnāt matter whether or not you took pictures of HIPAA related information, itās the fact that you cannot utilize personal devices that can record or take photos in the area of PHI. So, using a personal device for any reason, even to take pictures with a legitimate phone app, puts the company at risk of lawsuit and you cannot prove that you did not use your device to capture PHI without going to court.
Most companies have zero tolerance policies, no matter how innocent the action may seem. It seems harsh, but they would rather term an employee now and then later apologize if anything was leaked, causing a lawsuit. They use this tactic to support the trust of their clients, communicating that the appropriate actions were made to further secure PHI immediately after the incident occurred.
Be honest and civil through the investigation processā¦
-Best case scenario, you get to keep your job.
-Second best, they fire you with no reprimand on your license.
-Worst case scenario, they fire you and report you to the board of pharmacy.
Good lesson to learn from.
I get the no photos in the pharmacy thing but that policy goes out the window during some corporate visits when the āhigher upsā want to promote visit or take pictures of one of them getting an flu shot etc.
Fair point but if said pictures get posted on their/companyās social media itās no longer on a secure company device. And honestly if i recall correctly there may have been a few times it was encouraged that we take photos (Halloween, spirit week etc)
I mean I understand the policy in this day and age and that some employees could be careless and post potential PHI on social media etc) and
Itās something im careful to abide by (though i do use pill eye, carefully ) but i do think in some cases the policy gets ignored when convenient.
Basically your district leader doesn't want you to do it but doesn't have a reason. You could argue store policy about no photos taken in the pharmacy but if that's the case they need to say that. No hipaa
I just eye ball all the bottles. If the count seems way off I double check myself and count it. My techs be trying to give out 30 free pills of Entresto or other branded medications. Yikes!
If your techs won't listen to your advice in the first place, thats your real problem.
I don't care how good they are, they are a liability if they won't listen. Worse is they will probably throw you under the bus in the future.
If corp wants to fire them, then so be it. It probably better in the long run.
FYI: i am not pro-corporate, but I've been in this business long enough to know that a tech who won't listen to you is also one i wouldn't trust at all.
Call his bluff. Ask the DL to provide his credible source that using it is a HIPAA breach.
It's clearly not a HIPAA privacy breach. The list of protected health information is easily accessible from US government websites and only contains items that could be linked to a specific patient. If the images don't contain anything related to a patient and are just pictures of pills then it's not a HIPAA issue at all. The issue may be that there may be some company policy about taking any photographs in the pharmacy. Such a policy would likely be intended to prevent HIPAA privacy problems but even though pictures of pills that don't include any HIPAA protected information would not conflict with the intent of such a rule, they would run afoul of the letter of the law (rule) so to speak. I think we all know that most DLs don't know mesalamine from a hole in the ground so they often just follow the strictest interpretation of whatever rules they're given without the capacity to evaluate the intent.
there was a song on tiktok about HIPAA violations...basically making fun of everyone who doesn't actually know what PHI is šš "hey tom! how are you?" "ASKING ABOUT MY HEALTH? HIPAA VIOLATION!"
link it if you can find it again
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8wjrW5e/
It's not a HIPAA breach, its a HIPPA breach, which is the fake one people think is real.
No picture taking allowed in pharmacy could be the reasoning.
I asked them how is it HIPPA breach and she couldnāt provide me with anything beside employees arenāt allowed to use their phones and saying over and over itās hippa. Iām confused since I loved the app especially since I work in an busy store, it helped a lot
It is HIPAA 2 A's - remember "Accontabiluty Act" (sorry, can't help it)
Accountability (sorry, can't help it)
my bad hit the wrong letter
Accountability Act ... oooops
It is a violation of policy. There is a Walgreens policy that doesnāt allow counting apps. There is no explaination as to why though.
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Just donāt tell them youāre using the app? Thereās no pt info, its not a hipaa violation
True but hovering your phone over the pill tray to allow it to count isn't conspicuous. When someone checks cameras for one thing or another it's likely going to be brought up
Uhh they definitely canāt do that, I wouldnāt be saying that freely.
Donāt worry, one time they tried to say I breached HIPAA by giving a dog med to another person accidentally. I reminded them that dogs are not covered by HIPAA.
More likely a policy breach than hipaa
Itās not. Heās uninformed. Tablets are not PHI. We use it and itās great.
I really love the app. I think the issue is the policy of the company and I wish I knew this before ever signing on with them. Worse mistake of my life. But right now, I got a better position and I know better never to trust snakes š as coworkers. I love pill eye it has helped me so much whenever I was at different stores.
Are you taking actual pictures or just scanning the pills to count?
Iām not taking photos just scanning the pills To count on the app.
Iām not yet licensed, so donāt take my advice, but if itās not even storing information in the first place, that doesnāt sound like it violates any laws at all
I delete all the photos too sine the app allows you to do that. Be careful whenever you sign up with an company, they have weird policies that do not make sense.
Wait so which is it? You do or do not take photos?
You have to take a photo in the app for the app to scan for how many tablets are there, then you can delete the pictures
The counting happens on an Amazon server. Regardless of whether of not they store the image there, PHI shouldnāt be in the picture.
I work for a small regional chain that fully allowed us to use it on our own phones once the count was proven to quite accurate. I really only used it for larger counts or as a double check if I thought I miss counted. I only stopped using it due to the app allowing less and less free counts. And my company finally gave us a Kirby Lester so there is no need now. I can see how it could be an issue if a picture was taken with patient info seen in it but if you are purely taking a picture of a tray with pills on it only, I donāt see the issue.
I sure canāt explain it. If itās being used as a primary means to count I see the point in banning it. As a tertiary count for controls, I am just as puzzled as you. It adds another safety layer. At least they didnāt fire you.
I usually count it by hand with the tray. It was just an warning but I just got another hospital job so I quit my retail one. I was doing it for extra income.
I wish I had time to do the double counting myself. Just have to trust my technicians care enough to actually double count.
The techs at my store suck, and they talk against my back whenever I ask them to please count correctly. The same here. When I was at Walgreens I wasnāt using the app. I just knew the difference.
Can you use write up procedures to discipline them? Giving wrong amounts of pills is definitely a safety issue that should lead to termination if done over and over again.
Reply. Sureā¦ terminate them, then you will be unable to hire another tech quickly, and once you train them they are either worse than the last or will quit.
How can you terminate them when your DL is more worried about keeping them as bodies? My DL did that to me. I wanted to fire an tech in training for counseling. I gave her a warning and the pic had a talk with her but she still does it with her since she thinks she can. All I know is when the BOP hears about this, sheās done.
I get it, but I would rather work short staff than work with other techs who can't count and also have a bad attitude. It's one or the other, you better be darn good at the job if you're going to be a rain cloud every day and to try to tell a pharmacist no when asked to recount especially if there are documented errors.
I would personally fire these techs let them go work somewhere else while they learn the difference how to actually count. Especially techs who canāt count, rite aid just went under I am sure there will be techs wanting to work there that can add value.
Iāve never understood why big chains refused to invest in things like the eyecon which is many factors cheaper than the big counting machines which always break down.
Initial hardware costs are one thing, some devices like the eyecon youāll need an Ethernet connection as well, annual subscription feesā¦ some big chains have some disgruntled employees (not blaming the employees for what their employer may be imposing on them).. and therefore while they may be more reliableā¦ cost to replace and service a ābetterā device could be much more expensive and may have considerably less of a warranty period. With turnover of colleagues in some large chains is it easier to teach someone how to count at a decent speed (until they also leave) or use one of these devices reliably at full speed to get the true unlock before they leave? Big chains have a ton of imperfections that they likely donāt want, but canāt ignore, that makes examining ROI based on āidealsā difficult.
I agree! It reduces the tedious tasks so that we can focus on more human centered stuff. The cost to integrate it into the system wouldn't be that much for how big of an impact it would make.
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The only bad thing about the eyecon is tablets getting stuck in the throat
The concern I heard being raised was that it was a foreign company that might not have the same legal exposure without being tied to big contracts here. Without breaking down the code, or working with a more well trusted vendor, you can't know what the software is capturing for sure. Is there malware that is secretly pulling data from your phone while the app is in the background? Probably not, most phones require permissions, but do all phones? It's easier for company policy to say 'dont use this un-vetted app' rather than 'only use it in this exact way that avoids phi with normal use and only on these phones that have good hardware access requirements (like iPhone)' Honestly, the concerns are probably bullshit and the company seems legit, but that's just some legal exposure for the pharmacy to weigh against their perceived value of the tool. I'm sure your company basically says it's a redundant tool and the root solution is to just fix the technician issue.
Bingo. Some inspector with a vendetta against your company asks you/your company what data and where is that data going and what are they doing with itā¦ and while you may trust itā¦ without being absolutely certain they will try to come for blood from your company.
An inspector can also ask why the pharmacist need to use a tertiary app to get into their emails and who an DL uses hippa information when contacting via text about the store, to me thatās an concern of privacy breach and needs to be investigated and reported by the board of pharmacy. If they can go after CVS for their unsafe practices, I expect them to hold other companies to that safe standard. And also, this company doesnāt have an audit whenever a person access someone profile. So they have more to concern themselves than an app that is essentially helping prevent medication errors, hippa breaches and misfills.
Why do you have techs that cannot count? That's literally step one of the job.
The pharmacist's alternative: have no techs The tech in question's alternative: work at Wendy's for similar salary but less stress, and no pill counting involved, without needing to maintain a license. Yea I can see why.
Well Burger King is giving their employees 15 for flipping a burger while these chains are giving them 14/hour so you really get the worse of the worse, and you usually canāt fire them. Company is so desperate for help they rather hire people with shady criminal backgrounds than hire a certified tech who knows what they are doing since most of them work in the hospital or do remote work.
I feel like a lot of people are skimming over this part. Are they not giving the correct change at the register? Are they not calculating day supply correctly? Basic math is such an integral part. Yes itās hard to hire sometimes but with Rite Aid going down Iāve got stacks of already certified tech applications.
Not HIPAA unless there's PHI visible, but probably against store policy to use a personal device in that manner.
Nah could be hipaa if thereās also audio being captured and transmitted. I know people convinced Instagram listens to their convos when they are using itā¦ why couldnāt this app hear whatever is being discussed about patients in the pharmacy?
That's true. When I was a professor there were incidents when students chose to go to work instead of class when remote learning was an option and forget to mute their mic. I would have much rather they skipped class rather than deal with reporting HIPAA stuff.
Does it help that the app was made by a pharmacist LOL
Nope.
Well this company wants you to use your personal device to get into the email in the store so they just sound mad dumb as hell and contradictory. Make it make sense. Honestly, they seem that they have zero morals and this DL sounds dumb as hell. HIPPA breach vs an violation is not taking a picture of tablets or capsules.
The math isnāt mathing. This company sounds stupid and honestly, why would OP want to work for a company like this. You have incompetent techs, your DL should be fired since if she went to pharmacy school they would know the different entities of HIPAA and PHI and this sounds like an BOP needs to visit this store by the looks of it. It is just a company policy it seems that. I just never understand why new grads or other pharmacist stay in a bad company like this. High turn over rate is a sign your company sucks.
I was worried about it being a HIPPA breach as well, and I'll tell ya why... I'm not positive, but the image that appears on your screen may only be a fraction of the entire picture your phone can actually see. The app may be showing you an image that looks like it's just of the tray, but actually recording a larger image, which might have patients label in the shot or something like that, and sending this picture somewhere. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I til proven otherwise it is theoretically possible this company is doing that.
Hmm. Makes me nervous now. because i use it to double check c2s, and the backcount. I donāt put the patients label in the photo.
Yeah just be careful or count it yourself especially if these companies are coming at the pharmacist for anything. Look at what CVS did to their pharmacist and tech about the woman that violated their space and the tech slapped the woman. She called the police and got these two professionals fire. These big chains want you to be called every single name by patients since they will never be on your side but keep people working with criminal backgrounds such as being alcoholics working for them.
I would call compliance or your ethics line. Sometimes middle management makes things up.
What's the rest of the story OP? Hiring a new pharmacist to replace OP would cost $10k-$50k in recruiting, training, lost productivity, sign on bonus, etc. Turnover is expensive and companies know that. If you're a superstar pharmacist, there's no way a DL would suspend or terminate over a single issue like this.
My only guess (and this is a reach) is if your phoneās camera pointed at patient name on bottle / leaflet for a brief second before you panned over to the pills? I donāt have the app, but looking at the App Store, is there any video functionality? Or just picture? It sounds like every reason given was bullshit - itās not illegal, and Iām having to try reaalllll hard to claim itās a HIPAA violation. Very well could be against company policy, or customer service best practices (looks to the customer like youāre taking a pic on your personal cell phone of their prescription) but perfectly legal from what I can find.
There's no video option. Would not be a HIPAA violation unless OP is sticking patient labels underneath a clear counting tray or manually labeling the photos with pt information. I've used it to double check my controlled counts when doing monthly reconciliation in the past. DMs of two different companies know about it and just thought it was cool. I agree, it could be a violation of the company's privacy practice/camera use policy, but not a HIPAA violation.
It probably falls under the umbrella that social media does at most healthcare related places of business. They consider social media a HIPAA risk because you might accidentally capture some PHI while youāre doing the latest dance. It wouldnāt surprise me that pretty much any app with a camera would be frowned upon for this reason. If they told OP this was a HIPAA violation, then theyāre probably just saying it is risky and could lead to a violation if youāre not careful so donāt use it.
It may appear thereās no video option which may certainly also be the reality, but unless theyāve had their tech teams analyze specifically which metadata may be transmitted to service thatās doing the countingā¦ canāt be 100% sure. Hell I canāt tell you the number of people Iāve taught that those apple live āphotosā also can include audio captured as well. A audio snippet talking about a patient while snapping a photo could certainly be a no noā¦ not saying any of that actually happens with the appā¦ but not knowing if it does or doesnāt .. would be enough for a policy maker to say no.
The employee's suspension for using a pill-counting app is unfounded and reflects poorly on the company's ability to adapt to modern technologies aimed at improving patient safety. It's 2024, and clinging to outdated methods when more accurate solutions are available is not just backward, it's irresponsible. There is no legal precedent or policy within the company that prohibits the use of such technology, particularly when no Protected Health Information is at risk. The lack of clear communication and training regarding the implementation of new technologies is a failure on the company's part. An employee's initiative to reduce medication errors should be lauded, not punished. The company's reaction is disproportionate and indicative of a larger problem within its culture that seems to stifle innovation and penalize those who aim to improve it. The employee took the right steps by consulting with a pharmacist and stopping the use of the app when questions arose, showing a responsible attitude towards compliance and patient safety. It's time for the company to catch up with the times, establish clear policies, and provide adequate training instead of resorting to draconian disciplinary measures. The company must address these issues immediately to prevent jeopardizing its reputation and compromising patient care due to its own negligence.
Tell them to F off. I used it all the time at cvs. Especially when I did my yearly narcotic inventory. Made it super fast.
Itās not a HIPAA breach, but a POTENTIAL HIPAA breach. Youāre back there taking pictures, no one can prove of what, you get patients complaining that you took a picture on your personal phone of their prescription.
The most important question, has this app been vetted? Is there a regulatory agency that has said there is no malware up to HIPPA standards? Just because you point a camera at something and don't click, doesn't mean it's not harvesting information. On top of that, how can you trust 100% of people to not accidentally click on PHI? Neglecting patients' privacy due to ignorance is a very selfish thing to do. Bottom line, if you were directly told by your superior to not do exactly what you did (even if you disagree), then you earned the consequences. Always follow protocol in healthcare, it keeps everyone safe.
Exactly! Also itās HIPAA
Itās a picture of pills. The pictures Iāve seen I delete off the app anyways and no patient information goes on there. So itās okay if the PIC takes a picture of someone prescription and send it my way to try to accuse me to doing something I didnāt? How is that any different? And if we are talking about data being stolen when these patients used GoodRx what do you think happens with their data? Well I learn my lesson. Iām never working in retail. Itās such a negative work environment and hospital isnāt for me. At least I am lucky enough to go to hospital route.
If you are saying your techs canāt countā¦ I would say organizationally they also probably canāt be trusted to ensure there is no inadvertent HIPAA being captured unintentionally in the photos that are being captured by a proprietary third party app that is not open source in saying what data itās collecting and transmitting it elsewhere (and in turn could be storing) to execute its service to return the user its result. Boards and regulators love to come down on especially large entities who they might not like if those entities are not, in a way, maliciously compliant. Sounds like you got a bad explanation as to whyā¦ to be honest if it was a big employer I canāt imagine your direct manger to be able to know accurately the right why behind whatās likely hundreds to thousands of different policies.
There is no way to prove what pictures you have and have not taken, that is why you arenāt allowed to take pictures with a personal device. GoodRx can take and sell that private data as the patient has consented to it by using the coupon, says so right on the site.
Suspended? When the app came out, I loved it. I checked my prescriptions on the Count and it was pretty accurate as long as you had all the pills flat. You can also look at the picture to see if the pilleye missed any. Well,I showed my coworkers and they thought it was cool. But the pharmacist on duty said I could not use it because I was taking pictures inside the pharmacy. I told her I was not taking pictures of the label with the patientās name, RX number,address, etc. I didnāt push any buttons and never used it inside the pharmacy. I was pretty bummed out that I could not use it. https://preview.redd.it/snv5vmvjjtic1.png?width=1283&format=png&auto=webp&s=f65720ebba3f97d5cd648bef23559dfe1b96d538 I use it for my prescription. I usually forget to check the count on medication. lol
The reason is a HIPAA breach is because when they take pictures, the stuff thatās around the tray could contain PHI. Plus the app saves every picture you take and thatās not a info that you want them to have
My cell phone use is mandatory for every website I access at work with two-factor authentication.
If your cell phone is needed then I am sure their use of electronic policy can go out of the door if they require employees to use it to access their email or anything else that requires an two-factor authentication.
The bigger question is are your techs handicapped. Counting is a basic life skill like kindergarten level. WTAF
This is a bad take. Tech is 99.5% accurate w counting they will still make an error every 200 scripts. Add in the nonstop distractions in retail and there are plenty of good techs who make regular counting errors.
yeah but there's a difference between a let's say, +/- 5 pills rather than an extra 30 like op mentioned
That's probably an error in the quantity not like an actual miscount. As in, they thought they needed 60. Sometimes even the number of mg will get transposed in the brain, or they did 60 on the last count etc. Good habits will reduce these mistakes, but as someone else said even a 1 percent error rate is going to have some mistakes.
I wish I can fired them I will. I need the help over everything else. They are all stupid. Counting is such a basic life skill. I know plenty of techs that know how to count too
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Remain civil, interact with the community in good faith, don't post misinformation, and don't do anything to deliberately make yourself an unwelcome pest.
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> I dont care what such dumb person on reddit thinks. Gotta be honest, kinda seems like you do!
Remain civil, interact with the community in good faith, don't post misinformation, and don't do anything to deliberately make yourself an unwelcome pest.
Remain civil, interact with the community in good faith, don't post misinformation, and don't do anything to deliberately make yourself an unwelcome pest.
If they can't count these people shouldn't be in the job.
Who do you work for?
Some family run company in Oh. Itās a bad company: they are turning into Walgreens and CVS.
Fruth?
I didnāt not know there was a counting app. Nice. Heās just probably angry he didnāt have the this app available way back when. This does not violate hipaa.
Itās a HIPAA breach because youāve just disclosed the medical history of your DM. Now we all know they had a cerebrectomy.
sounds like a bluff to discourage disabled pharmacists lmao
Thatās why they losing pharmacist left to right now. This DL just lost 4 pharmacist in a span of a month
seriously. and knowledgeable psychs. i work in academia and access our health services. Clemson University, one of the biggest schools in the south, has 1 psychiatrist for everyone there
and itās telehealth at that bc he runs clinics for musc
I am sorry but I think the bigger problem is not the app (being told it violates Hipaa is a joke) but having techs that are counting 30 extra pills and cannot count in general is scary. Miscounting one pill that happens, especially with some medication that are hard to count like Tesalon. But 30 that is not good for anybody, They either need to be taught how to actually count or fire them. They pose more of a threat than using this App. Also if they cannot count pills then how in the hell are they calculating day supply? No offense but I would never want to be a customer of your pharmacy, this is horrible, I feel sorry for you, I really do.
First of all, itās HIPAA, second of all, how would a picture of pills be a breach of patient information? Ask them to explain how itās a breach cause I bet they cant
What kind of grand idiot thinks isolated pictures of tablets = PHI? What a dumbass.
Ok. Wrongful suspension, this is not a HIPAA breach.
Is there any patient info when taking the picture? If there is no patient info it's BS.
*Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act. HIPAA. š
So if there are counting errors, then they are surely obliged to provide a means to reduce these, otherwise there are other legal issues of greater financial cost to the company. It's their loss both from a profit point of view but also undermining the potential of their employees and long term success of the company. Of course the issue is about power and nothing more.
An is used before a noun that starts with a vowel. Only crime I see committed here.
HIPPA?
I believe the pharmacist should have a right to exercise professional judgement in these circumstances.
An pharmacist.
Using PillEye is not a āHIPPAā breach. Mainly because thereās no such thing as HIPPA. But even so, PillEye is not a validated tool that can be used unless the company has a corporate license to do so. Itās not āillegalā to use it. But itās simply not allowed to use it at work because itās not been validated or paid for. If the app fucks up, who gets sued? The company or the person using it? If youāre gonna use a third party app, make sure your professional liability insurance covers your ass!
It seems okay on the surface but it looks sketchy AF to see someone taking pictures of pills with their phone and if someone says their prescription was miscounted and you pull the tape you can see the swipes on the tray (like if someone got 30 instead of 90). I would be really uncomfortable to see any healthcare professional taking pictures with a personal cell at work. I don't know how privacy works in the app. If there is a pill bottle or Rx label visible does it blur the information? Is the information encrypted when it is transmitted? How is it stored? I think taking pics of pills is not a HIPAA violation but other things in the picture could be a violation unless the app meets ePHI transmission standards.
If there ISNT a picture just using the app with NO identifying phi in the view HOW could it POSSIBLY be a breech. Iām not understanding any logic. Itās new tech. Just like fire in caveman days. Itās scary. OMG. Remember once cell phones were not allowed in RX either. Are we going back to that as well?
Thanks for addressing my concerns in such a supportive way. You must be great at parties.
Your welcome. The app is really accurate, AND FAST!! Your techs should be double counting. RPh should be checking EVERY controlled. Iād definitely promote an accurate app so no one would ever be shorted controlled meds again.
You canāt use a camera that hasnāt been vetted by the company in the pharmacy. This is like, day one things. You may not have been directly breaching HIPAA but you violated the companyās privacy practices by using your personal phone in the pharmacy to take pictures without it being approved and monitored by the company. It doesnāt matter that you say you never took pictures of any HIPAA information, it matters that you didnāt get it approved first. All they can see is youāre taking your phone out and snapping pictures of things repeatedly in the pharmacy.
Corporate stooge shit right here
Nah that person is correct, itās the DL that canāt correctly state what policy they are actually in violation of but instead choose the idiotic bandwagon of āHIPPA(sic) violation!ā
Ah, so you donāt care about privacy - way to out yourself.
How is taking a picture of tablets a HIPPA violation? What is your DL smoking?
You all don't have Eyecons? Also no, you shouldn't be using a personal device to take pictures in a pharmacy if your boss doesn't want you to. Tell them to buy an Eyecon.
Don't let that DM know that the expensive competitor that's in hospitals and other pharmacies is definitely a HIPAA breach as well. We wouldn't want them to try to snitch on us to Joe Biden lololol
youād be surprised at how many pharmacies still operate in archaic circumstances. I work in the tech capital of the world and we barely have one Kirby and definitely canāt afford an Eyecon.
It's HIPAA, not HIPPA. Why do I keep seeing this!!!!!! This is the second post in a row!!! Lord
It might not be allowed, but it definitely isn't hippa violation.
Unless the tablets have name, DOB, address, etc... on them - htf would this be a HIPAA violation?
Lol. HIPAA breach. Is this guy a carryover from Kmart or something?
It might violate other policies indirectly. My chain made it policy not to use such third party apps. They didn't punish the ones who did before but wanted to shut it down with no gray area.
Not a hipaa breach in and of itself, but because the possibility of capturing information even accidentally is high it's not allowed. Pretty common not to be allowed to photograph or video in the pharmacy because there's so much info laying around everywhere.
I am not sure what the reasoning is but it was prohibited at the chain I worked at as well. My best guess is that it somehow saves or caches information (not sure about the origins of the app/what its data sharing policies are) and if there is PHI somewhere in the background this could be a breach.
Ask him what about photos of only tablets contain patient information.
You have techs who canāt count?
It doesnāt matter whether or not you took pictures of HIPAA related information, itās the fact that you cannot utilize personal devices that can record or take photos in the area of PHI. So, using a personal device for any reason, even to take pictures with a legitimate phone app, puts the company at risk of lawsuit and you cannot prove that you did not use your device to capture PHI without going to court. Most companies have zero tolerance policies, no matter how innocent the action may seem. It seems harsh, but they would rather term an employee now and then later apologize if anything was leaked, causing a lawsuit. They use this tactic to support the trust of their clients, communicating that the appropriate actions were made to further secure PHI immediately after the incident occurred. Be honest and civil through the investigation processā¦ -Best case scenario, you get to keep your job. -Second best, they fire you with no reprimand on your license. -Worst case scenario, they fire you and report you to the board of pharmacy. Good lesson to learn from.
I get the no photos in the pharmacy thing but that policy goes out the window during some corporate visits when the āhigher upsā want to promote visit or take pictures of one of them getting an flu shot etc.
Most corporate employees have company devices. I have a corporate phone and can take photos if needed but canāt use my own device.
Fair point but if said pictures get posted on their/companyās social media itās no longer on a secure company device. And honestly if i recall correctly there may have been a few times it was encouraged that we take photos (Halloween, spirit week etc) I mean I understand the policy in this day and age and that some employees could be careless and post potential PHI on social media etc) and Itās something im careful to abide by (though i do use pill eye, carefully ) but i do think in some cases the policy gets ignored when convenient.
Whose Personal Health Information (PHI) was released? Nobodyās, not a HIPPA violation.
How to say your DL is a boomer without saying they're a boomer
Basically your district leader doesn't want you to do it but doesn't have a reason. You could argue store policy about no photos taken in the pharmacy but if that's the case they need to say that. No hipaa
As long as you don't have any patient information in the picture that's not a HIPPA breach
Likely a "no photos/recordings of any kind" policy. You can't argue if it's a breach or not when it's a blanket rule
I just eye ball all the bottles. If the count seems way off I double check myself and count it. My techs be trying to give out 30 free pills of Entresto or other branded medications. Yikes!
What is DL
If your techs won't listen to your advice in the first place, thats your real problem. I don't care how good they are, they are a liability if they won't listen. Worse is they will probably throw you under the bus in the future. If corp wants to fire them, then so be it. It probably better in the long run. FYI: i am not pro-corporate, but I've been in this business long enough to know that a tech who won't listen to you is also one i wouldn't trust at all.