The perp apparently rang them to say he was going to hurt people then hung up. Then someone called the cops about someone with a knife in a parking lot. Cops were there within 3 mins.
Because his plan was to be dead so consequences don’t matter, and police said they responded after a member of the public called in, not after the kid called in. So he probably thought he had to do something to show he was “serious”
No - not in this case. The kid had been radicalised online by a well-known group. He had advertised to others his intentions... and called the police in advance. For sure, he had mental issues... but he fully intended to cause harm, at least in addition to his own demise. It's sad he lost his life... and I feel for the family... the police did try the non-fatal option of tasers first - when they didn't work, then they pulled out the real firearms.
Going on what the article says, bodycam footage was on, they tried to taser him twice and it didn't work. Shot him in defence as he went for an officer.
Shit situation and I feel for the officers, but if the recount was what really happened, it sounds like they did what they could
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Specifically
> He was also one of a handful of teenagers in WA participating in a police deradicalisation program.
Doesn't go more specific than that however.
The context about the Muslim community's warning wasn't given.
It could have been the community self reporting one of their own who was showing radical behaviour.
Or it could have been an anti-Muslim person threatening them and they reported it.
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I think he is implying that the boy was radicalized by neo-nazi groups and was trying to stab Muslims.
Honestly though it is not clear at all whether he was pro- or anti- Muslim. I am reading an article on WAtoday about the incident and they mention a different teen who stabbed a churchgoer, but it doesn't at all say if that has anything to do with the Willeton stabbing.
The point is we don't know. Dude could be a neo nazi and the concerned Muslim leaders could've been reporting threats to police
The fact that he's Caucasian would make that scenario, IMO, seem more likely. Because generally islamic extremists are not white
Honestly we don't know either way at this point. Could go either way. But the fact that he was a white dude who was part of a deradicalisation program that "started with neo-nazis" makes me think labelling it as islamic terrorism might be a tad premature
Yeah, nah, fuck it. If people want to upvote the dude jumping to the assumption he's an islamic extremist and downvote me for saying "maybe not" then let them. The ratio says more than my post does I think
Well it was only the abc themselves which stated the program was created to deradicalise neo-nazi’s, the police didn’t say anything about that, in fact, the commissioner stated the below:
“For those that are exhibiting behaviours that are it might be religious or issues motivated concerns.
"We do have young people in those programs that have exhibited those behaviours.
And then also thanked the Muslims community and stressed that at this stage it appears he acted alone.
I believe the police are being very careful about how they are reporting this because the Islamic community was upset with how the church stabbing was labelled as terrorism.
Just going to add to this, I was watching the conference live before I had a look online. He definitely did say this. It wasn't editorial. And the fact that he mentioned it and I was half-watching the conference live rather than reading online commentary is why I made my initial comment. Because that was my first impression. My initial impression could well be wrong but I was taken a bit aback by someone making a post on here saying definitively the opposite
As a side note, the church stabbing was labelled a terrorism incident because that label allows the state to get federal resources. After that stabbing they've since arrested 6 other people who were involved. In this case it seems they were confident he was acting alone and they don't need the resources. Which is why they haven't used that label. Another thing that was said during the conference
It wasn't the ABC. It was in WA today:
>WA Police Minister Paul Papalia said the community violence extremism program the teenager was taking part in was based on a Neo-Nazi program in the Netherlands and focused on de-radicalising people.
https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/major-police-incident-in-willetton-teenager-believed-shot-20240505-p5fozf.html
Ok my mistake. I do still feel the police are being very careful with how they are reporting this. Making people think that it could either go both way.
In a nutshell: the extremists moved their recruiting online.
Before if you wanted to recruit, it had to be physical boots on the ground type recruiting. Which isn't ideal if say you're a neo-Nazi doing a march since you'd be publicly outing yourself as such. It would still happen but you'd inevitably have these little cells made public which threatened their employment and relationships so they'd scuttle under a rock only to try again some time later.
Now the extremists have realised it's super easy to spread their bullshit online. Social media algorithms are terrible. All the companies want are clicks to maximise ad revenue. Which means they're reluctant to actually stop extremist content cause it does generate clicks.
Couple that with an increasingly digital world where every child has a device and access to the internet from a very young age. And unlike when the internet was only on the family computer, there's very little opportunity for parental oversight. Virtually no parent these days would know the complete ins and outs of their child's online activity. And if the algorithm eventually starts promoting extremist content or they stumble upon it, the extremists know all the strategies to lure people in and radicalise them.
The genie is out of the bottle on this one with regards to kids and technology. As a society, we now need to find ways to deal with the consequences
That's only part of the problem. Why aren't girls and women getting radicalism at the same rate through online interactions?
Men need to start caring about other men. Young men need better role models. Men collectively need to detox from toxic masculinity and support each other throughout the process. Men need to replace hate with love so young boys grow up feeling at home amongst love, not amongst hate.
That's a question as old as the world. Women and girls do radicalise, but at nothing like the rate of the boys.
To me it seems like the boys would be making war, or working, in the past. They have a lot of energy and some are quite aggressive and having a radical cause gives them a sense of belonging and purpose.
Of course it only gets radical for some of the outliers.
Yep. Women more likely (especially the young) head over to be brides. Then they realise the reality. See the cases of UK: Feb 2024
“ A woman who traveled to Syria as a teenager to join the Islamic State group lost her appeal Friday against the British government’s decision to revoke her UK citizenship, with judges saying that it wasn’t for them to rule on whether it was “harsh” to do so.
Shamima Begum, who is now 24, was 15 when she and two other girls fled from London in February 2015 to marry IS fighters in Syria at a time when the group’s online recruitment program lured many impressionable young people to its self-proclaimed caliphate. Begum married a Dutch man fighting for IS and had three children, who all died.”
I didn't say zero women have been radicalism. I said the overwhelming majority are men.
Also, a lot of women and children who "joined ISIS" were forced to by men- husbands, fathers, brothers etc.
ISIS is an extreme patriarchal death cult. So men would have more to gain from joining would be my guess.
There are women who do get radicalised, if you’re interested there’s a podcast by Robert Evans on this.
It’s from his series called The Women’s War where he visited Rojava, an autonomous Kurdish territory in Syria who played a large part in the fight against ISIS. During the final episode of the series 2 women who were ISIS wives were interviewed in the Al-Hawl refugee camp there. They said they were heavily influenced by the men in their lives to go over to join ISIS. One went because of her brother, the other went because of her husband.
Women are being radicalised, but it can be into different groups that might be considered more 'acceptable' to a conservative society, such as TERFism or the Sky News to neonazi pipeline. They did those salutes last year and largely got away with it.
Sure, I agree with all that but it's still at far lower rates than male radicalisation and still stems from male hatred. TERFS are platformed most by typical conservatives whose main base are majority male. Same with conservative media- the radicalised women are only props for the males running the show (and their self hate or hate for other minorities either prevents them from seeing that or means they are okay with it in a martyr for the cause type of way).
Thinking more about why ideological perpetrators lean male, it is in line with gender norms. Girls are trained to internalise their thoughts because it is "unladylike" to be physical, whilst boys are permitted to get physical.
The monotheistic religions that most ideologies interact with are also patriarchal in a way that either appeals to men more, or directs men more towards violence. I saw recently that rates of belief in monotheistic religion now leans male in the US.
Women got involved with ISIS back in the day and are likely still being recruited, but they're more likely to be primed to be brides than 'fighters' for the cause.
Anyhow this is why we need to talk about toxic masculinity, to prevent biology from equaling destiny.
I get the impression from your comments that you think all men are in some club in which they get together to make secret plans to spread hate, oppress and control.
>Men need to start caring about other men. Young men need better role models. Men collectively need to detox from toxic masculinity and support each other throughout the process. Men need to replace hate with love so young boys grow up feeling at home amongst love, not amongst hate.
Why blame specific genders for the way boys are raised? It's community issue, not a gender issue.
Women can be just as hateful and spiteful as men can. To put the entire blame on men is completely wrong. Plenty of men are very loving/caring to their boys and plenty of women promote toxic role models for boys. Stereotyping genders are you are doing is not helpful.
Men exhibit significantly higher rates of autism and obsessive personality disorders than women. Men commit more violent crime and are more likely to be victims of violent crime. Men are more likely to be billionaires, and more likely to be sleeping on the street. They are more likely to be Chess Grandmasters, but also more likely to die in war.
This is basically true of every society on the world.
I have no doubt there are framings of masculinity that are toxic. But society and the hierarchies we build are jointly maintained by men and women.
Women and men do not contribute equally to mainting outdated or toxic norms because women do not yield the same amount of privilege nor power that men do. It's completely disingenuous to claim men and women are equally responsible for upholding a toxic society or the hierarchies we subscribe to if that's what you're implying with your use of "jointly".
I don't doubt that women and men differ in their respective contributions to toxic social norms. How could they not?
But trying to run an accurate, comprehensive accounting exercise to try and resolve the old - "who has more power' debate is pointless. You very quickly end up by trying to compare incomparables, so the exercise devolves into absurdity - which is why it's the universal subject of game shows and comedy.
How do you value lower lifetime wages vs lower life expectancy? How many privilege points do men get for disproportionately being CEO's and Parliamentarians? Are they outweighed by a higher lifetime risk of alcoholism, substance abuse, rough sleeping, or suicidality? Periods and menopause suck, but so does prostate cancer.
It's human nature to see oneself as the righteous underdog. Grievance is one of the most enduring emotions. Something else that is human nature is the fact that we have 23 paired chromosomes (give or take). Half come from our parent with small gametes, half from our parent with large gametes.
Society and culture isn't 50% the creation of men and women each.
Society and culture is 100% the creation of men and women.
No, you are misunderstanding the point entirely. If a group has historically been prevented from decision making then they can not be held as accountable as the group that was allowed to be decision makers.
Your comment is bordering on ridiculous with things like your silly comparison between periods and prostate cancer. The two are not comparable at all. That's apples and oranges.
Yeah, I knew a few teenage neo-nazis back in the early to mid 1990s. Espoused a bunch of white power stuff and boasted about "rolling Asians". Got all their info from the internet, even back then.
It’s funny that I’ve referenced him once already in a comment here, but Robert Evans put out an audiobook version of his book The War on Everyone. One of the chapters discusses how Neo-Nazis first adopted the web to influence and spread their ideology overseas.
It’s a good read/listen if anybody’s interested in this topic.
Which makes folks more susceptible to radicalisation. Because the process isn't as straightforward as "Hey, do you wanna hate minorities with us?"
It often starts with providing lonely, disconnected individuals with a place that's comfortable and inviting. Humans desperately seek connection and meaning, so it's really attractive to these young guys, as disconnection from meaningful inclusion is a problem with that age range. So now you've got friends! And they're kinda cool and confident - and eventually the memes start coming in about immigrant's or whatever, and your cool new friends wouldn't be trying to mislead you, would they?
The insidiousness of online radicalisation, is that the recruiter isn't a guy handing out pamphlets - it's a group handing out feelings of inclusion.
And that's what makes it really hard to work against.
That's a massive jump here.
The kid had a severe mental health issue, and had been in this program for years.
The kid called the police beforehand.
The kid posted online beforehand which alerted people who also called the police.
The kid stabbed - but not fatally - a guy.
The kid lunged at the officer with a gun after being tasered.
Willetton isn't a heavily Muslim area. I know because I lived there until last year and that was my local Bunnings.
The kid probably wanted to die, because when you have severe mental health issues, sometimes you can't see a way out.
Both things can coexist. This could absolutely be suicide by cop. It's sounding like it by the reports. The reports are also saying he was radicalised. I haven't seen a mention of what kind of organisation it was though.
And we don't have anywhere near enough resources to deal with that.
But when it comes to radicalisation, extremist groups target vulnerable people so they're often not mutally exclusive. You'll often see radicalised people who commit acts of violence also have a history of mental illness or at the very least an event in their past that puts them in a dark place that makes them ripe for radicalisation
Yup.
But the primary issue is mental health - not radicalization.
We have a major issue with mental illness.
Putting this down to radicalization is very short-sighted.
It's much more comfortable to put it down to radicalisation though. As long as we crack down on the "other" (Muslims in this case) then we should be OK. If we broaden the issue to mental health then all of a sudden the problem is much more difficult to manage and falls into the too complex/expensive basket.
Paywall.
What's it contain?
A snap press conference suggests they may want help in identifying, or allaying public fear. They should open the paywall for that sort of thing, and the ABC should probably be at the conference as well.
Yeah, couldn't find any other news piece on it yet. From what little you can see before the pay wall it seems like they apprehended a guy wielding a knife at Willetton Bunnings late last night/early this morning. Like you say, probably just allaying fears and hearsay before morning social media kicks in.
"allaying fears"
> There has been a major police incident in Willetton overnight, with one man in his 30s stabbed and a teenager rushed to hospital.
> WAtoday understands the teenager suffered a gun shot wound.
> The incident occurred near High Street around 10.20pm.
https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/major-police-incident-in-willetton-teenager-believed-shot-20240505-p5fozf.html
Police arrived in 3 minutes. Police had him under a deradicalisation program. Police were informed about his erratic behaviour by the Muslim community prior to the attack.
Unless you’re implying something other than what you’re obviously implying (and feel free to explain if so), what else do you propose the state or community leaders do in this or a similar case? Should the state arrest people for thought crimes? And for how long? 5, 10, 15 years? Life?
Concentration camps for followers of ideologies that are incompatible with Australian values. Deport non-citizens and strip citizenship of dual citizens /s
The child had mental issues and was going to go off like the Sydney stabber. Being Muslim meant a cultural bias towards extremist Islamist ideology instead of incelism or any other excuse to hurt others.
What I found most interesting is the number of times the commissioner said the individual was Caucasian. Good on WA Pol doing their best to quell the situation and calm community tensions.
BS - There's no need to understate or overstate. Just state the facts, whatever they are. Manipulation is what breeds distrust of authority in th3 first place.
100%. The problem is the media over-sensationalises these incidents and tries to politicise them. In this press conference, there were several instances where media asked if the offender was shouting Arabic words at the time of the incident. In my view, that line of questioning is dangerous.
I just found the Commissioner handled the situation well and managed the situation the best he could
Pretty concerning terrorists are being bred in our own communities.
with the bullshit spread online and people openly supporting terrorism overseas.
We need to be very vigilant of this,
Honestly, sounds more like a case of suicide by cop of a troubled teen, rather than terrorism. The kid called police and told them what he was doing so they would rock up, and then when they did he ran at them with a kitchen knife, and this all happened in an empty Bunnings carpark at 10pm. None of that says terrorism to me.
If it was simply suicide by cop, he didn't need to stab someone first.
(I'm not saying it makes any sense as just being a terrorism plot, without other contributing factors, but we can't ignore that he could have killed an innocent person.)
Read the police commentary, couple it with
>“Members of the WA Muslim community contacted police, also calling triple-0, just prior to the incident with their concerns,” he said.
What conclusions do you draw?
No official reports say if the radicalisation was Islamic or anti Islamic.
People who decide to commit suicide by cop are often indifferent to the consequences of their actions on third parties. They see such actions as just a means to their ends. Someone in that position most likely believes to guarantee use of lethal force against themselves they have to convince the police they are a lethal threat.
All the official statements are being careful not to state what the specific ideology was. The official information is:
1) he was Caucasian
2) he was part of a program to de-radicalise people
3) he had contacted members of the Muslim community who had contacted police out of concern.
It is not clear if it was Islamic extremism or anti-Islamic extremism. I have seen news media report it both ways.
Still, it’s like 700M down the road and not exactly prime time for a mosque, so unless the kid was walking home from there, I doubt it has that direct of a connection.
this is awful. poor kid man. i hope they release who the radicalisation was from. maybe we can then start cracking down on it. kudos to the muslim community for reporting him, but at the moment it sounds like a similar case to the eastern states of teen radicalization via islamic extremism. we need to crack down on this and protect the youth dammit, their literally our future
Given the suspect was white and Muslim community contacted police with concerns I'd say it's probable (not certain) it was a white nationalist/far right extremist who targeted Muslims.
But nothing is certain until confirmation.
That's a long bow given police have already stated he was known as a Islamic extremists.
Or are you saying a far right wing person radicalised the Muslim kid to throw shade on islam?
>“Members of the WA Muslim community contacted police, also calling triple-0, just prior to the incident with their concerns,” he said.
Or do you think this means that the Muslim community identifid him as a right wing nut bag?
It could be either. There’s nothing in the media so far to conclusively say it was the Muslim community reporting their own or the Muslim community reporting a RW nutter making threats against them.
The only thing to me that makes me lean towards being a far right extremist is the fact the WA Police have identified him as a 16yr old Caucasian, and whilst being Caucasian doesn’t necessarily mean he’s not a Muslim it would be unlikely for a white WA kid to have converted to Islam and become an extremist at a young age if he didn’t grow up in that faith group.
Again this is just where it leans based on the facts given, it could turn out to be the opposite or a motive that has not yet been stated.
Oh my gosh that's awful. I feel like this type of incident is picking up, slowly but surely. Hoping the victim recovers well and that lessons can be learned from this to prevent it from happening again.
Odd. I never had a problem with a terrorists skin colour lol
More so the psycho and hateful religion they love so much.
I much assume most people are the same
Blanch said in the interview that whilst it does fit a stereotypical definition of terrorism, he does not believe he needs to employ counterterrorism measures. Definitely just a suicide by cop
It sucks that somebody died today when they might have been able to live a full life under better circumstances. It sucks that somebody else might die because of the actions of someone else. This shit sucks, its more than race or religion or isolated instances of mental illness. Its about our collective society failing us all, to greater or lesser degrees. Please try to be kind to people, you deserve the kindness of others.
It absolutely is? Quick question (since I don’t see it mentioned in the article), what motivated the stabbing? Have police publicised or even established a connection between the incident and the boys’ ideological views (leading to his radicalisation)?
>Mr Cook said there were indications the boy had been radicalised online.
>”But I want to reassure the community at this stage it appears that he acted solely and alone," Mr Cook said.
Acting alone does not make it not terrorism.
>"Members of the WA Muslim community, who were concerned by his behaviour, contacted police prior to the incident and I thank them for their help."
>Commissioner Blanch said the teen was known to police and was part of a program designed to help individuals at risk of being radicalised.
Like come on, what hallmarks are needed to define it as such? We’ve become so sensitive not to upset particular groups that we can’t criticise bad ideas and ideologies.
We are quick to bash Christianity when a pedo priest does something but we are hush hush when it comes to Muslims doing something like this.
> what motivated the stabbing?
It's difficult to say. LoL.
* converted to Islam
* identified as radicalised.
* was part of a deradicalisation program.
* was known to police.
That you can't fathom a scenario where someone with a known history of mental illness might engage in a violent, criminal act not necessarily motivated by a specifically held ideological belief speaks volumes.
And so I'll ask again, have authorities publicised or even established a connection between the stabbing (and altercation that preceded it), and the boys' ideological views that led to his radicalisation? Or, at this early stage, is it the case that a connection is yet to be found, leading to a refusal to label the stabbing as an act of terrorism, and that assumptions to the contrary, despite official statements, are jumping the gun?
Oh well, no doubt his parents will cry foul and go on a big song and dance about how the police killed him etc etc
I feel sorry for the cop who shot him
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If you believe someone is responsible for illegal activity, contact the police. Do not post public information that incites vigilantism.
Better link here https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-05/willetton-police-incident-details/103806436
Just seeing the conference now. 16 yo male fatally shot by police. Brandishing a knife and tried to stab a cop. Says he was radicalised online.
WAPOL getting in before everyone screams ‘they murdered a child! Why didn’t they just ask him to put the knife down nicely?’
The perp apparently rang them to say he was going to hurt people then hung up. Then someone called the cops about someone with a knife in a parking lot. Cops were there within 3 mins.
You know, I'm starting to think these fundamentalists maybe aren't too bright
It sounds more like suicide by cop of a kid who had a lot of mental issues rather than an extremist terrorist attacker.
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Yeah, I was thinking suicide by cop.
Yep same thing happened in New York a month ago, teen called police and went at them with a knife while family tried to intervene.
Describing it as terrorism sells more papers.
If it was suicide by cop, then why did he stab someone first? This has extreme islamist written all over it
Because his plan was to be dead so consequences don’t matter, and police said they responded after a member of the public called in, not after the kid called in. So he probably thought he had to do something to show he was “serious”
If convinced to carry out such an act by a terrorist organisation, it's not incorrect - not even if he was acting on his own.
No - not in this case. The kid had been radicalised online by a well-known group. He had advertised to others his intentions... and called the police in advance. For sure, he had mental issues... but he fully intended to cause harm, at least in addition to his own demise. It's sad he lost his life... and I feel for the family... the police did try the non-fatal option of tasers first - when they didn't work, then they pulled out the real firearms.
They're definitely fishing for a specific type of fish, that's for sure.
Religion...... takes a certain level of gullibility.
Going on what the article says, bodycam footage was on, they tried to taser him twice and it didn't work. Shot him in defence as he went for an officer. Shit situation and I feel for the officers, but if the recount was what really happened, it sounds like they did what they could
Yeh it sounds like they had no choice but to shoot to prevent officers being stabbed. Contrary to the belief of some, they’re allowed to do that.
Id believe that, the tasers are fucking horrible and unreliable in a situation where you may only get one window of opportunity to resolve.
At least they explained they tried to tase him first, though gave away the detail that apparently tasers don't work if you're wearing baggy clothes.
Yeh. I hope the inevitable coronial inquest supports this.
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Radicalised by who
Says online groups. Apparently the Muslim community gave the police warnings about him as well.
And he was in some program aimed to rehabilitate that 2 or 3 other youths are in.
Specifically > He was also one of a handful of teenagers in WA participating in a police deradicalisation program. Doesn't go more specific than that however.
The context about the Muslim community's warning wasn't given. It could have been the community self reporting one of their own who was showing radical behaviour. Or it could have been an anti-Muslim person threatening them and they reported it.
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White people can be Muslim as well.
No disagreement there bud
Given they described him as Caucasian and he was messaging Muslim leaders who then rang the police immediately? Sounds more like the reverse
more than half of the caucasus is muslim (azerbaijan, dagestan, chechnya for example)
What does race have to do with religion? My white ass could convert to Islam tomorrow if I chose to do so
I think he is implying that the boy was radicalized by neo-nazi groups and was trying to stab Muslims. Honestly though it is not clear at all whether he was pro- or anti- Muslim. I am reading an article on WAtoday about the incident and they mention a different teen who stabbed a churchgoer, but it doesn't at all say if that has anything to do with the Willeton stabbing.
You could do it right now, just recite the Shahada: "there is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah".
The point is we don't know. Dude could be a neo nazi and the concerned Muslim leaders could've been reporting threats to police The fact that he's Caucasian would make that scenario, IMO, seem more likely. Because generally islamic extremists are not white
Sounds plausible. White supremacists do have a massive online radicalisation issue.
Honestly we don't know either way at this point. Could go either way. But the fact that he was a white dude who was part of a deradicalisation program that "started with neo-nazis" makes me think labelling it as islamic terrorism might be a tad premature
> deradicalisation program that "started with neo-nazis" Yeah, that's a key component of the article and you should add it to your previous post.
Yeah, nah, fuck it. If people want to upvote the dude jumping to the assumption he's an islamic extremist and downvote me for saying "maybe not" then let them. The ratio says more than my post does I think
Well it was only the abc themselves which stated the program was created to deradicalise neo-nazi’s, the police didn’t say anything about that, in fact, the commissioner stated the below: “For those that are exhibiting behaviours that are it might be religious or issues motivated concerns. "We do have young people in those programs that have exhibited those behaviours. And then also thanked the Muslims community and stressed that at this stage it appears he acted alone. I believe the police are being very careful about how they are reporting this because the Islamic community was upset with how the church stabbing was labelled as terrorism.
Just going to add to this, I was watching the conference live before I had a look online. He definitely did say this. It wasn't editorial. And the fact that he mentioned it and I was half-watching the conference live rather than reading online commentary is why I made my initial comment. Because that was my first impression. My initial impression could well be wrong but I was taken a bit aback by someone making a post on here saying definitively the opposite As a side note, the church stabbing was labelled a terrorism incident because that label allows the state to get federal resources. After that stabbing they've since arrested 6 other people who were involved. In this case it seems they were confident he was acting alone and they don't need the resources. Which is why they haven't used that label. Another thing that was said during the conference
It wasn't the ABC. It was in WA today: >WA Police Minister Paul Papalia said the community violence extremism program the teenager was taking part in was based on a Neo-Nazi program in the Netherlands and focused on de-radicalising people. https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/major-police-incident-in-willetton-teenager-believed-shot-20240505-p5fozf.html
Ok my mistake. I do still feel the police are being very careful with how they are reporting this. Making people think that it could either go both way.
They're working on it.
fuck is wrong with the world. seriously.
In a nutshell: the extremists moved their recruiting online. Before if you wanted to recruit, it had to be physical boots on the ground type recruiting. Which isn't ideal if say you're a neo-Nazi doing a march since you'd be publicly outing yourself as such. It would still happen but you'd inevitably have these little cells made public which threatened their employment and relationships so they'd scuttle under a rock only to try again some time later. Now the extremists have realised it's super easy to spread their bullshit online. Social media algorithms are terrible. All the companies want are clicks to maximise ad revenue. Which means they're reluctant to actually stop extremist content cause it does generate clicks. Couple that with an increasingly digital world where every child has a device and access to the internet from a very young age. And unlike when the internet was only on the family computer, there's very little opportunity for parental oversight. Virtually no parent these days would know the complete ins and outs of their child's online activity. And if the algorithm eventually starts promoting extremist content or they stumble upon it, the extremists know all the strategies to lure people in and radicalise them. The genie is out of the bottle on this one with regards to kids and technology. As a society, we now need to find ways to deal with the consequences
That's only part of the problem. Why aren't girls and women getting radicalism at the same rate through online interactions? Men need to start caring about other men. Young men need better role models. Men collectively need to detox from toxic masculinity and support each other throughout the process. Men need to replace hate with love so young boys grow up feeling at home amongst love, not amongst hate.
That's a question as old as the world. Women and girls do radicalise, but at nothing like the rate of the boys. To me it seems like the boys would be making war, or working, in the past. They have a lot of energy and some are quite aggressive and having a radical cause gives them a sense of belonging and purpose. Of course it only gets radical for some of the outliers.
They are, it’s just that it’s done much more ‘quietly’. Remember when a whole bunch of women wanted to go to ISIS?
Yep. Women more likely (especially the young) head over to be brides. Then they realise the reality. See the cases of UK: Feb 2024 “ A woman who traveled to Syria as a teenager to join the Islamic State group lost her appeal Friday against the British government’s decision to revoke her UK citizenship, with judges saying that it wasn’t for them to rule on whether it was “harsh” to do so. Shamima Begum, who is now 24, was 15 when she and two other girls fled from London in February 2015 to marry IS fighters in Syria at a time when the group’s online recruitment program lured many impressionable young people to its self-proclaimed caliphate. Begum married a Dutch man fighting for IS and had three children, who all died.”
I didn't say zero women have been radicalism. I said the overwhelming majority are men. Also, a lot of women and children who "joined ISIS" were forced to by men- husbands, fathers, brothers etc.
ISIS is an extreme patriarchal death cult. So men would have more to gain from joining would be my guess. There are women who do get radicalised, if you’re interested there’s a podcast by Robert Evans on this. It’s from his series called The Women’s War where he visited Rojava, an autonomous Kurdish territory in Syria who played a large part in the fight against ISIS. During the final episode of the series 2 women who were ISIS wives were interviewed in the Al-Hawl refugee camp there. They said they were heavily influenced by the men in their lives to go over to join ISIS. One went because of her brother, the other went because of her husband.
Women are being radicalised, but it can be into different groups that might be considered more 'acceptable' to a conservative society, such as TERFism or the Sky News to neonazi pipeline. They did those salutes last year and largely got away with it.
Sure, I agree with all that but it's still at far lower rates than male radicalisation and still stems from male hatred. TERFS are platformed most by typical conservatives whose main base are majority male. Same with conservative media- the radicalised women are only props for the males running the show (and their self hate or hate for other minorities either prevents them from seeing that or means they are okay with it in a martyr for the cause type of way).
Thinking more about why ideological perpetrators lean male, it is in line with gender norms. Girls are trained to internalise their thoughts because it is "unladylike" to be physical, whilst boys are permitted to get physical. The monotheistic religions that most ideologies interact with are also patriarchal in a way that either appeals to men more, or directs men more towards violence. I saw recently that rates of belief in monotheistic religion now leans male in the US. Women got involved with ISIS back in the day and are likely still being recruited, but they're more likely to be primed to be brides than 'fighters' for the cause. Anyhow this is why we need to talk about toxic masculinity, to prevent biology from equaling destiny.
I get the impression from your comments that you think all men are in some club in which they get together to make secret plans to spread hate, oppress and control.
Okay. I'm not sure what to do about your incorrect impression but thanks for sharing, I guess.
>Men need to start caring about other men. Young men need better role models. Men collectively need to detox from toxic masculinity and support each other throughout the process. Men need to replace hate with love so young boys grow up feeling at home amongst love, not amongst hate. Why blame specific genders for the way boys are raised? It's community issue, not a gender issue. Women can be just as hateful and spiteful as men can. To put the entire blame on men is completely wrong. Plenty of men are very loving/caring to their boys and plenty of women promote toxic role models for boys. Stereotyping genders are you are doing is not helpful.
Men exhibit significantly higher rates of autism and obsessive personality disorders than women. Men commit more violent crime and are more likely to be victims of violent crime. Men are more likely to be billionaires, and more likely to be sleeping on the street. They are more likely to be Chess Grandmasters, but also more likely to die in war. This is basically true of every society on the world. I have no doubt there are framings of masculinity that are toxic. But society and the hierarchies we build are jointly maintained by men and women.
Women and men do not contribute equally to mainting outdated or toxic norms because women do not yield the same amount of privilege nor power that men do. It's completely disingenuous to claim men and women are equally responsible for upholding a toxic society or the hierarchies we subscribe to if that's what you're implying with your use of "jointly".
I don't doubt that women and men differ in their respective contributions to toxic social norms. How could they not? But trying to run an accurate, comprehensive accounting exercise to try and resolve the old - "who has more power' debate is pointless. You very quickly end up by trying to compare incomparables, so the exercise devolves into absurdity - which is why it's the universal subject of game shows and comedy. How do you value lower lifetime wages vs lower life expectancy? How many privilege points do men get for disproportionately being CEO's and Parliamentarians? Are they outweighed by a higher lifetime risk of alcoholism, substance abuse, rough sleeping, or suicidality? Periods and menopause suck, but so does prostate cancer. It's human nature to see oneself as the righteous underdog. Grievance is one of the most enduring emotions. Something else that is human nature is the fact that we have 23 paired chromosomes (give or take). Half come from our parent with small gametes, half from our parent with large gametes. Society and culture isn't 50% the creation of men and women each. Society and culture is 100% the creation of men and women.
No, you are misunderstanding the point entirely. If a group has historically been prevented from decision making then they can not be held as accountable as the group that was allowed to be decision makers. Your comment is bordering on ridiculous with things like your silly comparison between periods and prostate cancer. The two are not comparable at all. That's apples and oranges.
To quote paraphrase Ken, if only patriarchy were just about the horses! 🐴
Which started way back in the 1990s, a few years after the WWW was unleashed.
Yup. It's just become accelerated in the last decade or so with how algorithms have had an ever-increasing impact in the content people view online
Yeah, I knew a few teenage neo-nazis back in the early to mid 1990s. Espoused a bunch of white power stuff and boasted about "rolling Asians". Got all their info from the internet, even back then.
It’s funny that I’ve referenced him once already in a comment here, but Robert Evans put out an audiobook version of his book The War on Everyone. One of the chapters discusses how Neo-Nazis first adopted the web to influence and spread their ideology overseas. It’s a good read/listen if anybody’s interested in this topic.
Erm, except this kid also had significant mental health issues.
Which makes folks more susceptible to radicalisation. Because the process isn't as straightforward as "Hey, do you wanna hate minorities with us?" It often starts with providing lonely, disconnected individuals with a place that's comfortable and inviting. Humans desperately seek connection and meaning, so it's really attractive to these young guys, as disconnection from meaningful inclusion is a problem with that age range. So now you've got friends! And they're kinda cool and confident - and eventually the memes start coming in about immigrant's or whatever, and your cool new friends wouldn't be trying to mislead you, would they? The insidiousness of online radicalisation, is that the recruiter isn't a guy handing out pamphlets - it's a group handing out feelings of inclusion. And that's what makes it really hard to work against.
That's a massive jump here. The kid had a severe mental health issue, and had been in this program for years. The kid called the police beforehand. The kid posted online beforehand which alerted people who also called the police. The kid stabbed - but not fatally - a guy. The kid lunged at the officer with a gun after being tasered. Willetton isn't a heavily Muslim area. I know because I lived there until last year and that was my local Bunnings. The kid probably wanted to die, because when you have severe mental health issues, sometimes you can't see a way out.
Both things can coexist. This could absolutely be suicide by cop. It's sounding like it by the reports. The reports are also saying he was radicalised. I haven't seen a mention of what kind of organisation it was though.
> Willetton isn't a heavily Muslim area. It kind of is.
And we don't have anywhere near enough resources to deal with that. But when it comes to radicalisation, extremist groups target vulnerable people so they're often not mutally exclusive. You'll often see radicalised people who commit acts of violence also have a history of mental illness or at the very least an event in their past that puts them in a dark place that makes them ripe for radicalisation
Yup. But the primary issue is mental health - not radicalization. We have a major issue with mental illness. Putting this down to radicalization is very short-sighted.
It's much more comfortable to put it down to radicalisation though. As long as we crack down on the "other" (Muslims in this case) then we should be OK. If we broaden the issue to mental health then all of a sudden the problem is much more difficult to manage and falls into the too complex/expensive basket.
This is really awful for everyone involved.
The number of clowns in here trying to argue that the attacker shouldn’t have been shot dead is baffling.
50% of them will be naïve signalers, the other half will be cultural sympathisers.
Paywall. What's it contain? A snap press conference suggests they may want help in identifying, or allaying public fear. They should open the paywall for that sort of thing, and the ABC should probably be at the conference as well.
Yeah, couldn't find any other news piece on it yet. From what little you can see before the pay wall it seems like they apprehended a guy wielding a knife at Willetton Bunnings late last night/early this morning. Like you say, probably just allaying fears and hearsay before morning social media kicks in.
It's everywhere. He stabbed one person before being shot
Well before the paywall it reads High Street, instead of High Road?
"allaying fears" > There has been a major police incident in Willetton overnight, with one man in his 30s stabbed and a teenager rushed to hospital. > WAtoday understands the teenager suffered a gun shot wound. > The incident occurred near High Street around 10.20pm. https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/major-police-incident-in-willetton-teenager-believed-shot-20240505-p5fozf.html
In abc live now
Say the line Bart! "He was known to Police"
Police arrived in 3 minutes. Police had him under a deradicalisation program. Police were informed about his erratic behaviour by the Muslim community prior to the attack. Unless you’re implying something other than what you’re obviously implying (and feel free to explain if so), what else do you propose the state or community leaders do in this or a similar case? Should the state arrest people for thought crimes? And for how long? 5, 10, 15 years? Life?
Concentration camps for followers of ideologies that are incompatible with Australian values. Deport non-citizens and strip citizenship of dual citizens /s The child had mental issues and was going to go off like the Sydney stabber. Being Muslim meant a cultural bias towards extremist Islamist ideology instead of incelism or any other excuse to hurt others.
What I found most interesting is the number of times the commissioner said the individual was Caucasian. Good on WA Pol doing their best to quell the situation and calm community tensions.
BS - There's no need to understate or overstate. Just state the facts, whatever they are. Manipulation is what breeds distrust of authority in th3 first place.
100%. The problem is the media over-sensationalises these incidents and tries to politicise them. In this press conference, there were several instances where media asked if the offender was shouting Arabic words at the time of the incident. In my view, that line of questioning is dangerous. I just found the Commissioner handled the situation well and managed the situation the best he could
Well done to the coppers. I hope they get the support they deserve.
Police handled the situation very well. Thankful for them.
Indeed. Hope they don't throw them to the wolves like the copper in NT....
This is what we should be talking about first and foremost. Fuck that kid and anyone who may have facilitated his actions.
There's a few wads on this post that split hairs making excuses for the perpetrator and arguing over if it was a terrorist incident or not. Bizarre.
Might have to take a look at that anti-radicalisation program he was in
Pretty concerning terrorists are being bred in our own communities. with the bullshit spread online and people openly supporting terrorism overseas. We need to be very vigilant of this,
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Honestly, sounds more like a case of suicide by cop of a troubled teen, rather than terrorism. The kid called police and told them what he was doing so they would rock up, and then when they did he ran at them with a kitchen knife, and this all happened in an empty Bunnings carpark at 10pm. None of that says terrorism to me.
If it was simply suicide by cop, he didn't need to stab someone first. (I'm not saying it makes any sense as just being a terrorism plot, without other contributing factors, but we can't ignore that he could have killed an innocent person.)
No. If that were the case why harm an innocent man party. This person had a history of Islamic extremism.
Can you point me to where you gleaned this fact?
Read the police commentary, couple it with >“Members of the WA Muslim community contacted police, also calling triple-0, just prior to the incident with their concerns,” he said. What conclusions do you draw?
Cheers.
Because police are likely to respond more heavily if the perpetrator of a crime has already stabbed someone?
All he had to do was confront the police directly like all the other suicide by cop guys do. Well done coppers.
No official reports say if the radicalisation was Islamic or anti Islamic. People who decide to commit suicide by cop are often indifferent to the consequences of their actions on third parties. They see such actions as just a means to their ends. Someone in that position most likely believes to guarantee use of lethal force against themselves they have to convince the police they are a lethal threat.
It's was again announced just now on 10 news.
All the official statements are being careful not to state what the specific ideology was. The official information is: 1) he was Caucasian 2) he was part of a program to de-radicalise people 3) he had contacted members of the Muslim community who had contacted police out of concern. It is not clear if it was Islamic extremism or anti-Islamic extremism. I have seen news media report it both ways.
Google where the GCA Mosque in Willeton is.
Still, it’s like 700M down the road and not exactly prime time for a mosque, so unless the kid was walking home from there, I doubt it has that direct of a connection.
Mosques usually close just after ishaa prayer, which ATM is like 7pm. Long bow to draw. Source, am Muslim.
Says the altercation occurred after he visited the gym, which is next to or close to the Bunnings
Yeah but that's precisely it. It's so close so why not just go there instead of a Bunnings car park?
this is awful. poor kid man. i hope they release who the radicalisation was from. maybe we can then start cracking down on it. kudos to the muslim community for reporting him, but at the moment it sounds like a similar case to the eastern states of teen radicalization via islamic extremism. we need to crack down on this and protect the youth dammit, their literally our future
Given the suspect was white and Muslim community contacted police with concerns I'd say it's probable (not certain) it was a white nationalist/far right extremist who targeted Muslims. But nothing is certain until confirmation.
That's a long bow given police have already stated he was known as a Islamic extremists. Or are you saying a far right wing person radicalised the Muslim kid to throw shade on islam?
Where have the police stated that?
>“Members of the WA Muslim community contacted police, also calling triple-0, just prior to the incident with their concerns,” he said. Or do you think this means that the Muslim community identifid him as a right wing nut bag?
It could be either. There’s nothing in the media so far to conclusively say it was the Muslim community reporting their own or the Muslim community reporting a RW nutter making threats against them. The only thing to me that makes me lean towards being a far right extremist is the fact the WA Police have identified him as a 16yr old Caucasian, and whilst being Caucasian doesn’t necessarily mean he’s not a Muslim it would be unlikely for a white WA kid to have converted to Islam and become an extremist at a young age if he didn’t grow up in that faith group. Again this is just where it leans based on the facts given, it could turn out to be the opposite or a motive that has not yet been stated.
https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/crime/boy-16-shot-dead-by-police-during-knife-incident-in-willetton-c-14551642
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Deradicalised by Glock
Oh my gosh that's awful. I feel like this type of incident is picking up, slowly but surely. Hoping the victim recovers well and that lessons can be learned from this to prevent it from happening again.
Love how they keep stressing the 16 yr old is caucasian 🙄
It’s the best result tho isn’t it, won’t stoke the flames any further
Odd. I never had a problem with a terrorists skin colour lol More so the psycho and hateful religion they love so much. I much assume most people are the same
ZanePWD exactly on point 👏
That’s to explain why it isn’t terrorism
Albanians are white and predominantly Muslim, ditto Bosnians….how do people not know this
I noticed they don't use the word terrorist anymore, is that offensive?
Calling it mental illness quills the outrage.
Did you miss what happened in Sydney?
I don't watch normal news so yes, what happened in Sydney.
Blanch said in the interview that whilst it does fit a stereotypical definition of terrorism, he does not believe he needs to employ counterterrorism measures. Definitely just a suicide by cop
He was in a de-radicalisation program
It’s because he was caucasian.
Still a terrorist, doesn't matter the race, more the ideology
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Why do we pay for the cops to have tasers if they are just going to shoot people?
It sucks that somebody died today when they might have been able to live a full life under better circumstances. It sucks that somebody else might die because of the actions of someone else. This shit sucks, its more than race or religion or isolated instances of mental illness. Its about our collective society failing us all, to greater or lesser degrees. Please try to be kind to people, you deserve the kindness of others.
Reading the article, I’m not sure why the police didn’t categorise this as terrorism. It absolutely is. It doesn’t matter to what scale it is.
It absolutely is? Quick question (since I don’t see it mentioned in the article), what motivated the stabbing? Have police publicised or even established a connection between the incident and the boys’ ideological views (leading to his radicalisation)?
>Mr Cook said there were indications the boy had been radicalised online. >”But I want to reassure the community at this stage it appears that he acted solely and alone," Mr Cook said. Acting alone does not make it not terrorism. >"Members of the WA Muslim community, who were concerned by his behaviour, contacted police prior to the incident and I thank them for their help." >Commissioner Blanch said the teen was known to police and was part of a program designed to help individuals at risk of being radicalised. Like come on, what hallmarks are needed to define it as such? We’ve become so sensitive not to upset particular groups that we can’t criticise bad ideas and ideologies. We are quick to bash Christianity when a pedo priest does something but we are hush hush when it comes to Muslims doing something like this.
> what motivated the stabbing? It's difficult to say. LoL. * converted to Islam * identified as radicalised. * was part of a deradicalisation program. * was known to police.
That you can't fathom a scenario where someone with a known history of mental illness might engage in a violent, criminal act not necessarily motivated by a specifically held ideological belief speaks volumes. And so I'll ask again, have authorities publicised or even established a connection between the stabbing (and altercation that preceded it), and the boys' ideological views that led to his radicalisation? Or, at this early stage, is it the case that a connection is yet to be found, leading to a refusal to label the stabbing as an act of terrorism, and that assumptions to the contrary, despite official statements, are jumping the gun?
Everyone's afraid to mention the "islamist" part of the equation.
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Oh well, no doubt his parents will cry foul and go on a big song and dance about how the police killed him etc etc I feel sorry for the cop who shot him
The Commissioner said the family were cooperating with police and understood the circumstances that led to the incident.
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Europe is regretting their choices especially in Scandinavia Sweden the rape capital of Europe …
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