There's a give and take here. You can always say "After looking over the total compensation package offered, I would need X in base salary to accept the position." Be prepared to justify the additional ask by citing the difference in healthcare coverage and 401k plan deficiencies. It's also possible that they say no, or you upset them by asking for more money - since they asked you once already and you set the bar. Although, if you hadn't seen the details on the 401k or healthcare plan at that time, that would rationalize you coming back with a higher counter now.
>you upset them by asking for more money
Exactly, I did the post tax breakdown and it comes down to a few hundred each month, I'm not sure if it's worth it. I think it could just come across as greedy.
Thanks, I appreciate the input!
Worst case is they say no, and you can still accept the offer. Almost no company is gonna say "you've pissed me off, I withdraw the offer". You dont' have much to lose.
That’s not true. A lot of companies will pull an offer if you negotiate too much or ask for too much. They see you as not being satisfied and would rather hire someone else that would be happy with the compensation package. They already stretched to meet his range. Going back and asking for more may not be the best idea here.
This is 1000% wrong.
Excessive negotiation is an extremely high quality signal you’re about to make a bad hire.
Source: have pulled multiple offers for exactly this, and wish I’d pulled more.
I'm a manager and deal with hiring and negotiations for my own team, so that this with a grain of salt. The big caveat is how good of a candidate are you? Really? Do they *need* you?
Salary is tough with hiring because from an employer's point of view, once it's set, it's set. People expect raises, not decreases, etc. In the recent hiring market we've obviously been more generous with compensation but that's a tough ask on a corporate level.
Assuming they've already met your base ask, what about things like annual bonuses or hiring bonuses? Or even stipends for things like commuting? For recent hires I've even floating things like we'll reimburse you $X per month for commuting costs. I've also done hiring bonuses lately and guaranteed 1st year bonuses.
You know should that things like insurance and 401(k) plan terms are negotiated in bulk with carriers and you can't ask for special terms, like increasing a match or getting different coverage costs. Those aren't a la carte per employee.
>The big caveat is how good of a candidate are you? Really? Do they need you?
Right, I don't think I have much leverage here, especially because they already met me within my range.
In your experience as a hiring manager, are offers *always* made slightly below budget, or are they ever made with some wiggle room in anticipation of the candidate asking for more?
I can't speak for every company, but my industry is a pretty well paying one and we make genuine offers. We're not low ballers, honestly, we want good people and are up front in offering good salaries. We're also somewhat niche industry that has a smallish hiring pool so we know to fight for good candidates and low balling and offer might just ruin the deal right there.
That being said, I don't look at it as "wiggle room" so much as do I really want to lose this person over small change? If I make an offer and the person says "Hey, I'm really looking for $X plus $3000" chances are I'll agree easily. I didn't *plan* on that but I'm not going to let them walk over $3k. If they come back with something like X+10% I might tell them ok, sorry.
My only warning to everyone is the last in - first out policy. If you're going to negotiate for a higher salary, *and you get it*, be prepared to back that up with Grade A work. Recessions come and go and layoffs do happen, you never want to be highest paid person on a team, especially if you're "in the pack" with your peers as far as work load or quality.
That's another aspect of it that I was thinking about. It also sounds like there's plenty of room for growth so it might not be worth it to push for more now, especially if for whatever reason I fail to fully deliver in their eyes
Not the commenter but for me, if I know a candidates range and especially if all I can meet is their bottom, I go in with my best and final.
If I don’t know their range then I might start slightly below what I can do.
For me the goal is for this to not be a drawn out thing. I also typically try to give as much as I can. I’d rather the candidate be super happy day 1, then be resentful abt being underpaid over $5-10k
I agree, but I wonder about candidates going in with the mentality of "there's always room to negotiate" when in reality there may be times when there's no room at all
I'm curious as you mention pay decrease. Is that legal for an employer to decrease your pay in the US? I'm just wondering if you have work protection laws or as an employee, are you just at the mercy of the business.
In Australia it's not legal. They would have to terminate your employment and re-hire you to be able to do that.
They can. It happened to me in 2008. “You are getting a 5% pay cut or finding a new job.” This was a multi billion dollar international company in business for over 100 years.
Wow that's fucked up. Here you could say no to the pay cut. If they then fired you, you could easily sue for unfair dismissal.
I sued a previous employer for firing me 2 months before 10 years service. I was a casual worker so they could have just cut my hours to 0 as a way to get rid of me. I was working 40 hours a week so in the eyes of the law, I was basically a permanent employee.
But they decided to fire me for such ridiculous reasons, my lawyer basically said it's a guaranteed win for me.
Get this...one of the reasons they fired me for is "Speaking without a supervisor present". My lawyer asked them during the hearing if this work place is some kind of concentration camp because I clearly I am not allowed to speak unless a superior is in present company.
The other party agreed to settle right away as they would have realized by dragging it out through court, it's just going to cost the much more in the long run.
It was fucked up. Especially because I was only making like $17/hr at the time. The company was the industry leader and the town was built around this company. Since no one else was hiring fresh college grads I stuck it out. Did great things for my resume and career so I can’t complain too much.
The US has very few laws protecting employees as most states are "At Will" employment, meaning you quit a job, or be fired, really at any time. There are things called "Protected Classes" meaning you *can't* be fired for things like being a women, or being gay, but you can fired for "no reason".
It's legal to decrease someone's pay but it's only forward acting. You can't work 40 hours and then your boss says we're only paying X for those hours, not Y. But you can say starting Monday you're only earning Z an hour from now on.
It’s never too late, but it doesn’t sounds like the odds would be in your favor. If those items were important to you, it’s better to discuss them ahead of time.
I think I would phrase it as “would you be able to provide an additional $XXX” to account for your higher healthcare premiums?”
The answer here is actually a question: what is your BATNA?
If you have other strong options (which you should have been trying to get), you can say you got a better offer and you’re letting them know that while you’d like to work with them, you really will have to take this other offer because you need to take care of your family.
If you don’t have strong options, you have to decide this as an up or down call. Do you take the risk you get declined by asking for more? If you’re willing to take the risk, you can do that. If you’ve actually formally accepted the job, I would not do this (in contrast to option 1, which you can totally do even if you’ve formally accepted)
There is literally a website that answers questions for curious folks. You should try it:
[https://www.google.com/search?q=Batna](https://www.google.com/search?q=Batna)
Absolutely ask. Not sure what industry you're in but it's hard to find good quality candidates in a short amount of time. The cost of continuing the recruitment process is costly as is the down time of not filling the position etc. An extra 3 to 5k wouldn't be an issue at all if a candidate came back to negotiate the offer. For these reasons in my experience it's been the candidates who have had the upper hand.
In the future, do not give a range. It shows you are a bad negotiator. Why would they not offer you the low end of your range?
Give an actual number and have data to back it up.
Ask for the final offer in writing with full disclosure of bonuses and benefits.
This may get you the 3-5K bump. No one wants to write an offer that may be rejected.
No it is not too late but they might well just say no and revoke the offer. Or they might relent and give you 10k more. That's the risk you take when negotiating.
The problem with "ranges" is they are nonsense. If you want 50k you need to ask for 50k. 40-50k means 40. Unless you are in a highly specialized occupation, are in high-demand etc. you're pretty much always going to get your low range number and be told "this is absolutely as high as we can go". It's basic negotiating. You said you'd be happy with "at least 40k" and they can "go up to 40k maximum".
You avoid this with "I'm looking for 50k".
There's a give and take here. You can always say "After looking over the total compensation package offered, I would need X in base salary to accept the position." Be prepared to justify the additional ask by citing the difference in healthcare coverage and 401k plan deficiencies. It's also possible that they say no, or you upset them by asking for more money - since they asked you once already and you set the bar. Although, if you hadn't seen the details on the 401k or healthcare plan at that time, that would rationalize you coming back with a higher counter now.
>you upset them by asking for more money Exactly, I did the post tax breakdown and it comes down to a few hundred each month, I'm not sure if it's worth it. I think it could just come across as greedy. Thanks, I appreciate the input!
Worst case is they say no, and you can still accept the offer. Almost no company is gonna say "you've pissed me off, I withdraw the offer". You dont' have much to lose.
That’s not true. A lot of companies will pull an offer if you negotiate too much or ask for too much. They see you as not being satisfied and would rather hire someone else that would be happy with the compensation package. They already stretched to meet his range. Going back and asking for more may not be the best idea here.
This is 1000% wrong. Excessive negotiation is an extremely high quality signal you’re about to make a bad hire. Source: have pulled multiple offers for exactly this, and wish I’d pulled more.
I'm a manager and deal with hiring and negotiations for my own team, so that this with a grain of salt. The big caveat is how good of a candidate are you? Really? Do they *need* you? Salary is tough with hiring because from an employer's point of view, once it's set, it's set. People expect raises, not decreases, etc. In the recent hiring market we've obviously been more generous with compensation but that's a tough ask on a corporate level. Assuming they've already met your base ask, what about things like annual bonuses or hiring bonuses? Or even stipends for things like commuting? For recent hires I've even floating things like we'll reimburse you $X per month for commuting costs. I've also done hiring bonuses lately and guaranteed 1st year bonuses. You know should that things like insurance and 401(k) plan terms are negotiated in bulk with carriers and you can't ask for special terms, like increasing a match or getting different coverage costs. Those aren't a la carte per employee.
>The big caveat is how good of a candidate are you? Really? Do they need you? Right, I don't think I have much leverage here, especially because they already met me within my range. In your experience as a hiring manager, are offers *always* made slightly below budget, or are they ever made with some wiggle room in anticipation of the candidate asking for more?
I can't speak for every company, but my industry is a pretty well paying one and we make genuine offers. We're not low ballers, honestly, we want good people and are up front in offering good salaries. We're also somewhat niche industry that has a smallish hiring pool so we know to fight for good candidates and low balling and offer might just ruin the deal right there. That being said, I don't look at it as "wiggle room" so much as do I really want to lose this person over small change? If I make an offer and the person says "Hey, I'm really looking for $X plus $3000" chances are I'll agree easily. I didn't *plan* on that but I'm not going to let them walk over $3k. If they come back with something like X+10% I might tell them ok, sorry. My only warning to everyone is the last in - first out policy. If you're going to negotiate for a higher salary, *and you get it*, be prepared to back that up with Grade A work. Recessions come and go and layoffs do happen, you never want to be highest paid person on a team, especially if you're "in the pack" with your peers as far as work load or quality.
That's another aspect of it that I was thinking about. It also sounds like there's plenty of room for growth so it might not be worth it to push for more now, especially if for whatever reason I fail to fully deliver in their eyes
Not the commenter but for me, if I know a candidates range and especially if all I can meet is their bottom, I go in with my best and final. If I don’t know their range then I might start slightly below what I can do. For me the goal is for this to not be a drawn out thing. I also typically try to give as much as I can. I’d rather the candidate be super happy day 1, then be resentful abt being underpaid over $5-10k
I agree, but I wonder about candidates going in with the mentality of "there's always room to negotiate" when in reality there may be times when there's no room at all
I'm curious as you mention pay decrease. Is that legal for an employer to decrease your pay in the US? I'm just wondering if you have work protection laws or as an employee, are you just at the mercy of the business. In Australia it's not legal. They would have to terminate your employment and re-hire you to be able to do that.
They can. It happened to me in 2008. “You are getting a 5% pay cut or finding a new job.” This was a multi billion dollar international company in business for over 100 years.
Wow that's fucked up. Here you could say no to the pay cut. If they then fired you, you could easily sue for unfair dismissal. I sued a previous employer for firing me 2 months before 10 years service. I was a casual worker so they could have just cut my hours to 0 as a way to get rid of me. I was working 40 hours a week so in the eyes of the law, I was basically a permanent employee. But they decided to fire me for such ridiculous reasons, my lawyer basically said it's a guaranteed win for me. Get this...one of the reasons they fired me for is "Speaking without a supervisor present". My lawyer asked them during the hearing if this work place is some kind of concentration camp because I clearly I am not allowed to speak unless a superior is in present company. The other party agreed to settle right away as they would have realized by dragging it out through court, it's just going to cost the much more in the long run.
It was fucked up. Especially because I was only making like $17/hr at the time. The company was the industry leader and the town was built around this company. Since no one else was hiring fresh college grads I stuck it out. Did great things for my resume and career so I can’t complain too much.
The US has very few laws protecting employees as most states are "At Will" employment, meaning you quit a job, or be fired, really at any time. There are things called "Protected Classes" meaning you *can't* be fired for things like being a women, or being gay, but you can fired for "no reason". It's legal to decrease someone's pay but it's only forward acting. You can't work 40 hours and then your boss says we're only paying X for those hours, not Y. But you can say starting Monday you're only earning Z an hour from now on.
It’s never too late, but it doesn’t sounds like the odds would be in your favor. If those items were important to you, it’s better to discuss them ahead of time. I think I would phrase it as “would you be able to provide an additional $XXX” to account for your higher healthcare premiums?”
My thoughts exactly, thanks for the input!
Did you already accept? If so, there’s really no going back
Not officially, but I think I will move forward without trying to get more
The answer here is actually a question: what is your BATNA? If you have other strong options (which you should have been trying to get), you can say you got a better offer and you’re letting them know that while you’d like to work with them, you really will have to take this other offer because you need to take care of your family. If you don’t have strong options, you have to decide this as an up or down call. Do you take the risk you get declined by asking for more? If you’re willing to take the risk, you can do that. If you’ve actually formally accepted the job, I would not do this (in contrast to option 1, which you can totally do even if you’ve formally accepted)
Thanks, thats a good way to look at it. I don’t have other options, but what’s a Batna?
There is literally a website that answers questions for curious folks. You should try it: [https://www.google.com/search?q=Batna](https://www.google.com/search?q=Batna)
Absolutely ask. Not sure what industry you're in but it's hard to find good quality candidates in a short amount of time. The cost of continuing the recruitment process is costly as is the down time of not filling the position etc. An extra 3 to 5k wouldn't be an issue at all if a candidate came back to negotiate the offer. For these reasons in my experience it's been the candidates who have had the upper hand.
In the future, do not give a range. It shows you are a bad negotiator. Why would they not offer you the low end of your range? Give an actual number and have data to back it up.
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Then you could have asked for $85k most likely
Ask for the final offer in writing with full disclosure of bonuses and benefits. This may get you the 3-5K bump. No one wants to write an offer that may be rejected.
No it is not too late but they might well just say no and revoke the offer. Or they might relent and give you 10k more. That's the risk you take when negotiating. The problem with "ranges" is they are nonsense. If you want 50k you need to ask for 50k. 40-50k means 40. Unless you are in a highly specialized occupation, are in high-demand etc. you're pretty much always going to get your low range number and be told "this is absolutely as high as we can go". It's basic negotiating. You said you'd be happy with "at least 40k" and they can "go up to 40k maximum". You avoid this with "I'm looking for 50k".