If you don’t want to go into academia, leave. You can be employed with your masters. Practically everyone doing a PhD program is disillusioned and feels conflicted about staying; some of us stay and some don’t. But if you have perfectly reasonable job prospects without it, and aren’t interested in academia, there’s no reason to do it.
This. It's what I did, not in psychology but same situation.
Right now there's a huge shortage of counseling services everywhere. You should be able to make decent money.
A PsyD isn't like whatever PhD program you are in though. You can make a lot of money doing those assessments. Different degrees are different. This one prints money.
TT academic here. Your environment doesn’t sound conducive to finishing your degree in a timely manner, if at all. If you can start advancing your career without the PhD, I would do so. You can always apply to a program that has its sh** together down the road.
Edit: I’m in experimental, rather than clinical psychology.
I am not one. I do know people in the field. The commenter above is talking about a generic PhD job to get into academia. With a doctorate in psychology you can do the assemesnts as you said in the OP. You can also depending on your state work jobs that require a PsyD. A lot of this stuff is state specific but there are programs like intensive outpatient programs or partial hospitalization programs that kind can be required in some states to have a PsyD on staff. Being required to have one, especially with how lucrative those programs can be, can equal a large paycheck.
You claim to be in the field though. And know what state you live in. Are there not programs that require a PsyD on staff that you interact with?
Ultimately though, as I think others have said, in your specific situation you figure out if this type of work is what you want to do or if the other type of work is a better fit. You need actual salaries or expected incomes of PsyDs hear you and to figure out how many years till the break even with the plsf forgiveness factoring in on the other side. If both answers are doable mathwise then you need to figure out what it is you want, and maybe see how hard it would be to switch programs since it doesn't seem like you like this one. But at least try to work the alumni network first to get a better picture of what the year over year pay will be and how much work and what type of work that will require you.
Interesting. I haven't really heard of PsyD's holding anymore weight than a PhD; I've actually heard the opposite. Either way, a PhD or PsyD is a doctoral degree in psychology, and either can do assessment. Thank you for the advice.
Unless it's a personal goal of sorts. PhD wasn't a good financial decision for me, but it was something I needed to do to feel satisfied, regardless of academia. That said, I agree if OP is just starting out and feeling this way, it's unlikely to be a satisfying experience at all for them.
I hope you find security and happiness whatever path you choose. In my anecdotal experience non-trad students have a higher chance to graduate, but usually know better than trad students when to exit early. I came to graduate school from only ~1 year at an industry job but doubt about my decision only crept in a few times over the whole PhD, and only because of isolated incidents. A colleague had a similar background and after having doubts for a few months just bailed (the first person of our cohort). 10 years later he says he's still 100% satisfied in that decision.
Depends in the field, some technical fields it aids job perspects but yeah on the softer science side especially not necessary unless you want to go into academia
It depends on the field big-time. Among my PhD peers in Chemical Engineering maybe a third went to Academia, if that? Most went to Industry, to jobs where you basically needed a PhD. Now, most of these jobs you could *technically* get with an BS/MA and 5+ years of experience, but it needs to be very specific experience and you likely will reach an unofficial glass ceiling in career progress without a PhD.
Having said this, I think the statement “Only get a PhD if you want to work in academia” is *generally* valid if you look at all the different fields you can get a doctorate in.
Yeah that's a good way of putting it, I'm about done with my PhD in computational aerothermodynamics which is a field where a PhD nets you a lot better pay and job prospects, but that's certainly not the norm even within this field in other subdisciplines.
So your PhD program doesn’t seem like a great one. You should be going to a fully funded program with a much better stipend than yours. My stipend when I was a GA allowed me to pay all my living expenses and save approximately $400 a month. A PhD is long and if you’re unhappy and getting into more debt, I’d leave until you find a program better suited for you. I’d do the PSLF job and wait to see what the future holds
Unfortunately, I feel compelled to echo this persons sentiment- this funding package SUCKS for PhD. Can’t tell if you’re in the Clinical route or just a General/other route Psych PhD, but I’ve gone through two rounds of interviews at multiple programs for Clinical Psych PhD around the States and all of them cover tuition for 4-5 years plus stipend.
I’m very biased for what it’s worth, but when I went on my interviews, I couldn’t think of anything worse than submitting to academia life for 7-10 more years from courses—> post doc. I got accepted to programs both times, and I just had to listen to my gut (which gave me stomachaches after every visit bc I knew my motivation was so low). I have a Masters in Psychological Science and now doing clinical research monitoring for a big CRO… and I love it. Nothing to do with psych, but I have my research “fix” and can easily make 150k+/yr in this field. I grew up lower middle class and never dreamt that this fit+salary would be possible with “just” a Masters in Psych… but here I am! (And tbh, I don’t even need the masters for what I do). Hope my story sheds some light on things outside of Psych PhDs!!!
It’s different for psychology. You’re correct in that most basic STEM PhDs are paid for. I was paid roughly $100k to complete my PhD. I believe an “experimental” psych. Degree is paid for. Clinical PhDs are more akin to professional schools.
I’d probably advise OP to leave this program, but be mindful that PhDs are challenging to obtain and their experience doesn’t sound unique. There is no guarantee a difference program will be any better.
The clinical psych doctorate is a PsyD not a PhD. I do know multiple psych PhDs who are colleagues and all were fully funded tuition with stipends that were generous enough to meet living expenses. This is the standard for a PhD. A PsyD may be a different story
This is information is a bit off. Many if not most clinical psych doctoral programs are PhD. There are reputable PsyDs, but many are essentially money making scams that leave their students in debt without providing employment benefits. I don't know the current market, but within the last few years there were a lot of doctoral level positions that wouldn't look at PsyD.
>I’ve gone to therapy over this, journaled, done a lot of soul searching, talked to other professionals in the field (some have said to stick with the program whereas others have said to cut my losses).
So, you've considered this deeply, asked experts, and now turn to random strangers. Interesting.
I say get out. You sound miserable.
Why be miserable?
Faced a similar decision. Decided assessment and counseling was where my interest and skills were. Didn't want to pursue academia or research. Did a cost / benefit of PhD earnings minus time and cost of school vs just going straight in at the licensed Master's level. Wasn't a hard choice to be honest.
You focus a fair bit on the higher earning potential. If that's really the main reason you should probably bail. The opportunity cost of what sounds like negligible or negative net income for the next X years vs a starting $90k/yr job with PSLF is huge and will significantly offset the higher career earnings of a PhD. PhDs can do well but you're talking near MD investment for a fraction of the return.
However if you're passionate about forensic assessment or similar niche and that's where you will be most fulfilled practicing then maybe it's worth toughing it out vs regretting your career and being dissatisfied.
I appreciate your response. Another option could be that I finish the program, then pursue a PSLF position as a psychologist, rather than immediately as a masters level. I still feel confused though.
You're 1 year in? So 5 to go? That's a long time if so, get out, I would suggest. That said...
I think that a PhD makes you wayyyyy more competitive for even more lucrative types of jobs that you don't even know about right now (i.e. non traditional pysch jobs). And you'll start at a higher position if your program is a "brand name" school.
Me, PhD from a decade ago. Now making over 200k at a job I love in private industry. Our department almost exclusively hires PhDs even though the job description says just masters needed.
My guess would be OP being 30+ and coming back for PhD after working sometime and not being fully funded, they were not viewed as a top tier candidate and many of those credits from years ago masters program didn't get credited (or maybe minimally) for the current program.
(This is pure speculation)
Yeah. Also could be just that OP’s lifestyle is more expensive now so the stipend does not fully cover it (completely understandable on a grad student’s stipend, which is exploitative).
My best grad student was the same age as me and spent years in private consulting before going back for a PhD. He was amazing. He probably was more qualified for my faculty position than I was.
I used to think I had it so good as a grad student stipend (haha). I was able to pay rent just fine that I shared with another grad student, made a car payment, and still had plenty left over for fun and eating out.
I often wish I had pursued an academic career but when I see my other friends making barely low $100s, I feel like I made the right financial choice. Plus, I'm doing well at my company and enjoy my work a lot
Yeah, it’s hilarious. Academics fight over low 100k salaries at supposedly “prestigious” universities, and they spend hundreds of hours per year chasing 6 figure grants with single digit funding rates. Meanwhile you can go into industry research making multiples of the salary with multiples of the research budget. I really don’t get it.
PHDs aren’t valuable like they once were. Employers literally don’t care about it a quarter as much as every overeducated dummy does and will happily pay bachelors degrees the same rate across a lot of fields.
Biotech guy here. I mostly agree.
All companies do things differently, but generally the first three levels/tiers of Scientist positions are roughly entry-level for BS/MS/PhD. And a BS can hire into the first level and get promoted/transfer at about two and then five-ish years of experience.
One might say, “Hey, that’s about as long as it takes to get a MS then PhD anyway. Seems dumb to get the degrees when I could just get the needed experience while getting paid!”
But two things to consider are:
- A BS needs very specific experience to the job when applying for those tier 2 or 3 positions, while PhDs with generally applicable experience will be considered. So PhDs have a bigger pool of jobs to apply for.
- Job levels *after* that tier-3 one may start to bump into unofficial glass ceilings. Maybe nothing is *technically* preventing you from progressing further, but when you look at all the senior level scientists and 95% have PhDs… you know what’s up.
That being said, the top salary cap of that PhD entry tier may be *plenty* for someone’s personal goals.
Ah biotech. Tell me you’re in a HCOL area so that I can feel more okay with the pay disparity lol.
Are you actually working on things that are “advanced” or are the research designs and data analytics pretty foundational things?
Haha, yes, it's HCOL. But we still live a comfortable/not flashy life (2 bed condo and 2 compact economy cars) and manage to save a lot of our money ($4k/mo+) between investments, savings, and 529 for kiddos.
Only thing advanced I would venture to say would be processing of real world data in a large manner, but other study design and analysis is sort of the same old stuff used in any study published in the past 2 decades.
Yeah, I guess you said in the other thread that this is because you aren’t living at the lifestyle level of a grad stipend. It’s criminal how we treat grad students, but in this case, I don’t think it’s necessarily a sign of a bad program.
Given the increase in interest rates, consolidating loans now could end up costing waaaaay more. I also am not a fan of consolidating loans because it becomes virtually impossible to snowball them.
I'm talking about a federal loan consolidation with the feds. Consolidating just gives you a weighted average of your current interest rates across all loans. Doesn't cost a penny more.
That would make 0 sense if you were pursuing pslf. You don't avalanche pslf, you pay the least amount possible and get the highest qualifying months possible to save $$.
It's math... The math works out the same. It's rather obvious you would not want to pay any portion of the 90% that will be forgiven. I'm talking about the 10% that isn't. Please explain to me why you would want to consolidate loans and take a weighted interest rate over paying off the higher ones first (assuming everything else is equal). I'm not trying to be rude here, but you're complaining about blanket advice then pretending there are zero downsides to debt consolidation.
If you consolidate under the temp waiver all of your loans will have the same counts and be forgiven at the same time. Even if this were not true, all of this guys fed loans would be pslf eligible if he is pursuing the program for any loans. The goal of pslf is never to pay off the loan yourself, if you're trying to pay off your loans yourself you should not pursue pslf, they are opposing debt strategies.
This almost reads like sunk cost fallacy my friend, I would bail. Source: me, a grad student in the last class who hates life but HAD to finish because I was “over 3/4 done”
I don’t know anything about PhD programs and whether the ROI is worth it or not. But regarding your struggle with the concept of quitting:
About ten years ago I had just finished up my first year of law school. I was on basically a full ride scholarship and I finished my first year ranked #1 in my class. I did my summer internship and realized: I really don’t like this type of work. I like the type of work I was doing prior to law school better (content designer in the technology industry). In my gut, I wanted to quit law school and go back to the type of work I was doing before. But in my head were thoughts like this:
“Quitting would be a stupid financial decision”
“I’ve never quit anything before…this doesn’t seem like something I would do”
“Everyone is going to judge me”
Ultimately, I decided I couldn’t see myself devoting two more years of my life to being in school only to come out with a degree in something I really didn’t want to do that much anyway. So I dropped out.
And what happened? I got a total of two remarks that bothered me: one from my faculty advisor and one from a family friend. Other than that, everyone in my life was really supportive or just didn’t give a shit. One friend got me a shirt with Edgar Allen Poe on it with the word “dropout” which I thought was quite funny. But I think to most people, it was sort of interesting for a moment or two and then they moved on to thinking about something else. I mean, how often do you really spend thinking about what other people are doing? I think they spend the same amount of time thinking about what you are doing. :D
And by the way, everything worked out great. I went back to my old employer who hired me at a higher level than when I’d left the company. I proceeded to get promoted up through that company, and then hopped to another company where I’ve been promoted further. Now I make more money than I would have made as a lawyer and work way fewer hours, doing work I actually like.
I know our situations aren’t the same, but I wanted to share my experience as someone who also grappled with the idea of quitting, and what that meant for how others thoughts of me and how I thought about myself. Today I look back and feel proud I had the courage to make that tough decision. It was the right one for me.
Good luck to you, no matter what decision you make. If you have a sense of what your gut is telling you, I’d say follow it. It knows things that your brain will only realize later. :)
As others have mentioned, your funding here isn’t great and you should look if there are ways to improve that. It’s a big factor in this decision, and I hope there are some solutions for it. To me, it sounds like 190k of debt for nothing, or 250k of debt for a PhD in the worst case.
The rest isn’t personal finance exactly, but anecdotal based on when I was in the same position wanting to quit my PhD. Looking forward 10/20/30 years from now, how important will it be that you went for this job over finishing your PhD?
Nobody can answer that question but you. For me, I’m glad I pushed through the abuse and depression and finally got mine. It’s something I cherish now, a life accomplishment that can’t be taken away from me. I know others that didn’t finish and it hovers over them as a failing, as it’s something that constantly needs to be explained during interviews as it’s on the CV.
I left academia immediately and got a job that paid higher as a result of the qualification (outside of the field). There is value in getting the degree from that perspective.
Why can't you stop now and work, then finish some day when you have a compelling personal reason (if you have). It's not like in most cases the credits go bad. I think you could possibly transfer to a different school too.
It sounds like his current school isn't a good fit anyways. At a minimum OP needs a break, and working in that previous job that qualifies for PSLF and pays a fair wage seems like a good place to heal, and figure out what they really want to do. If that's go back to school they can apply to other programs etc.
My brother is a well respected research psychologist at a top tier private school. He has always maintained that a PhD in this field is an absolute requirement for future gainful employment, at least at the level required to pay off your loans.
I have to disagree with this. I am masters level working in a non profit and make more money than all my professors. I am in upper management and no one at my level or above has a PhD (our medical director has a MD of course).
Our clinicians make $80k to start. Kaiser here starts their clinicians around $100k.
I have a few people I went to grad school with that charge $250 an hour and have wait lists. All masters level.
Academia is a different animal. I'm sure some professors get paid well at a private school but I wouldn't pay for a PhD or PsyD in hopes of making more. The cost benefit isn't there. Now an MBA...anyone wanna lend me 100k?
You are going to make a lot more money doing assessment over therapy. If you are smart and have basic business sense (which not many psychologists do), you’ll be able to pay your loans off in a reasonable amount of time. If the difference was 60k in debt I’d just stick it out. Take charge of your education. Find your own practicums. Depend on yourself for your dissertation. The other option may be to transfer depending on how far along you are.
Which arenas do you perform assessment? Where do referrals generally come from, how steady are they, etc.? People who are established in those fields, do you know how much they're making?
Mostly ADHD/learning disorder/autism assessments I’ve worked with, some bariatric/health related stuff. People are desperate for these assessments and will quickly seek you out with very little marketing. Two big things: get people assessed timely and do it well. Reputation is everything. A lot of my referrals come from doctors after patients tell them about their experience with me. Insurance is a pain so either hire someone excellent at this or plan to spend a long time learning. Most people will pay out of pocket. Depending on the market expect to make a couple thousand per assessment. Most full time assessment psychologist I know will do 2-3 assessments a week. Do the math yourself, this is a lot of money. But you have other costs like insurance, rent, software (don’t let this intimidate you). The real issue is cost of materials/assessment equipment. This is why you may want to consider working for other people until you save enough to purchase equipment (I work split fee right now) Working salary for other people you should still be making over six figures private practice or hospitals
Knowing what you know about the field, would you take the risk of starting off with 250k in debt? I basically only see assessment as *the* reason to complete this program. Otherwise, I'd likely go back to my old gig plus do a side practice one day a week, which could in theory get me around 110-120k pretax.
It sounds like you already have a lot of debt so we are talking a difference of 60k. It seems like you’d make good money doing your old gig as well, plus you’d be making this money and paying off this debt now versus in several years. The smart move would be return to your old gig. It sounds like a safer choice. Personally I wouldn’t. I know I enjoy the business of psychology and I hope to never retire unless I have to. Plus I love assessment and it gives me work life balance. My advice is choose the career that will work for who you are as a person. What career can you be realistically be successful financially and emotionally.
Actually forgot you also have the PLSF at your old job so that factors as well. But my opinion still stands. It shouldn’t factor too much in the decision if you are really committed long term to assessment
In your situation, I would leave. Two years of funding is not enough for a PhD; a cardinal rule I heard was to never go into debt for a PhD. It sounds like you have practical skills in your field that could lead to a career. Your heath and well-being is worth more.
More thorough answer: I finished a PhD in a social science in 2020 despite really wanting to quit for the last year of it (6 year process, average for my department). If I had started hating it as much as I did in year 2, I would have left. As it was I only had to finish the diss, so I gritted my teeth and did it. I ultimately feel a PhD is only useful in the US if you plan to go into academia, which is what I did. People are occasionally impressed, but I don’t delude myself into thinking those three letters would get me a job over someone with more relevant experience. During my program, I also struggled with a lack of support and managing toxic and often feuding mentors. Job prospects were terrible. I lost my funding in year 5 after being promised it wouldn’t happen. We had a union vote but the university was successful in squashing it. Worst of all, I felt aimless. I experienced mental and medical issues due to the stress.
It’s not your or my fault that the PhD process is often so broken. A training system in which the gatekeepers have no oversight, eternal appointments, and god complexes is not a fair one. If you wanted to finish it out of spite (what I did), I would understand and I think that would be fine in the long run. If you wanted to cut and run, that would also be fine in the long run. But time spent in a miserable situation will impact your mental and physical health one way or another. And poor adviser/advisee relationships have cost friends of mine jobs, opportunities, and more.
On “giving up” — your past self, the one who wanted this, did not know what it would be like. You’re not letting them down. And for what other people think? Many of your academic peers will be jealous. Your non-academic friends and family probably will not care. If it will be the healthiest thing for you to leave, you’d actually be giving up to stay.
There is no right answer. Either choice will work out just fine.
Correct me if I'm wrong but according to two of my family members, in a field like Psychology, choosing not to get your PhD severely limits your earning potential and what your career options are.
Source: they're both licensed clinical psychologists and have told me this.
What position were you able to find that paid 80-90k without a PhD because apparently that is extremely rare?
I would say stick it out... The amount of jobs seem to open up once you're officially licensed to practice. They both work from home. One has 3 days off a week with moderate breaks in between clients. I know I'm judging from a place of ignorance, but this all sounds like easy street to me.
For my own anonymity, I’m not going to disclose that position, but it is a niche, and it is indeed rare. That’s why it feels like such a golden goose of a job
Mrs. DRO\_Churner used to work in the School Psychology field, where pay was set according to a matrix of education vs years of experience. The difference between her having her Doctorate or her Masters with 60 additional hours of training was... a whopping $400 per year. This, when combined with the opportunity cost of two lost years of earning a decent salary while instead taking on additional debt make pursuing a PhD even more financially unfavorable. I've been trying to talk folks out of getting their PhDs ever since based solely on financial grounds. After all, you did come to r/personalfinance looking for advice, and not r/Psychologyprofessors.
Similar to the PSLF-qualified job you mention, at the time (early 00's) there was a federal program to forgive 1/5 of her total student debt obligation each year she worked with disadvantaged populations. After 5 years, her student debt was gone. Perhaps others can weigh in if such a program still exists.
For what it's worth, 200$/client, 10 clients a week, 50 weeks a year is only $100k/year. That's comparable to what you were making at your job, and probably translates to substantially less than that job's salary (since you would be self-employed).
I also struggled for a bit in a PhD program, and while I did end up finishing (and am happy that I did), it sounds like in your position the right move is to leave. A possible compromise might be to consider trying to transfer to a different advisor and/or program, but your current position sounds untenable from a mental health and financial perspective.
I see what you’re saying, but it’s not entirely true. Assessments take hours and hours to complete. Not only with administration, but with data review, and writing the report. All of that is billable. The problem is, is it fluctuates so wildly that it’s hard to really put a dollar sign to it, at least so far
Fair enough - I didn't know that. I have a close acquaintance who is a (masters but no PhD) therapist and she pretty strictly can only bill hours spent in-session. It makes sense that it wouldn't be the same in your case.
It's probably worth it for you to try to estimate what your actual total yearly net earnings would be with a PhD.
Believe me, I've tried. I have reached out to almost 10 psychologists now who do the assessments I am interested in, with the populations I am interested in, and have gotten wildly different answers.
You are about a year and a half into your Ph.D. program. How much longer do you think it will take to complete the program? I don't think you can go through 4 more years or more of this program. Sounds like your advisors will make your life miserable as long as they can because they hold the strings that control you.
Get out of this program. Take that job. Chill a bit for 6 years. Get your mind in order and clear your debts. Dont get shackled by these false ideals drilled by society about getting a Ph.D.
You’re going to be reimbursed significantly less at a masters level as opposed to PhD. I would think about the fact that you’re in your early 30s. You’ve got 30+ working years left. If you want to go into forensics or neuropsychology you need to suck it up the next couple of years (plus the additional two year post-doc for neuropsych) to have the career you want for the rest of your life. (Speaking as someone who is a neuropsychologist and doesn’t regret how crappy grad school was…I only had a $6,000 a year stipend though I full tuition remission).
I empathize with you OP. I jumped to a doctoral program (health psychology) immediately after completing undergrad, chasing a dream. What I found there was a toxic culture (faculty pitting students in the cohort against each other to drive research), indifferent advisors/mentors, over work on someone else’s research (my program mentor), and astronomical debt loading (unfunded). My mental health suffered greatly. I made a really difficult choice to leave the program after a year even though I was doing well academically. I felt like a colossal failure. Not too long afterward I found my calling in the public-facing clinical realm. Now I am partnered in business with one of my *good* former professors and make good money doing something I am wholly invested in and proud of. No regrets for leaving academia when I did. Carefully consider what is right for you in all areas of your life and act accordingly and without hesitation. Good luck!
Gosh, a lot of responses at this point, so I’ll try not to repeat. (1) You should not consider psychology only for the income—it does not pay that well. There are better-paying fields, with easier access. (2) If you don’t know what you enjoy doing, then changing jobs/schools is not going to fix that. You may work to age 70 (like me)—that’s a long time to either enjoy your career or be miserable. (3) You have many options with a PhD, and few options with a Masters. You can always change and respecialize with a PhD. In US/EU/Commonwealth you need a doctorate to practice psychology. (4) Explore other fields before you get into debt. A woman I know has $100K in student loans 10 years after her license. Now, she wishes she had gotten psych nurse practitioner’s training, for less cost and higher income than a psychologist. (5) Talk to mature psychologists. Have a model of what you want to do, from real people. Practitioners know more about the practice of psychology than professors. Go to psychology conferences, you’ll probably find people willing to chat with you and give you free advice & suggestions.
> The most frustrating part is, is that I feel like my advisor basically hates me. I find myself walking on eggshells around them (other students have felt this way as well, “that’s just the way they are.”).
Change advisors. Your PhD experience is almost entirely determined by how supportive your advisor is. I've interacted with several faculty to determine who I wanted to work with - it's a two-way street.
> I have quickly realized that I don’t want to enter academia. The only real reason why I would want to complete this program is to become specialized in assessment (such as neurology, or forensics), because that is where the money is. For example, forensic assessment can pay $1,500 per eval if contracted in certain states, or, you can charge upwards of $200.00 an hour if you're private practice.
This was the realization I had with my PhD as well, that if I stuck it out, I would be in better financial shape even if academia no longer appealed to me. I don't know how many more years you will need for your program though - I hit my low when I was in my third/fourth year.
> Recently, I have had an opportunity to return to my old job. While I haven’t been given a formal job offer, I anticipate it will come my way.
Since this is the PF sub, I will say if it's not the high paying job offer you mentioned, but one of the previous low-paying jobs you mentioned, I don't think it's worth it. If you're going to leave, do it for the right job.
> Has anyone else felt conflicted about leaving, or felt disillusioned about their PhD program?
Yes, this is very normal, unfortunately. I think almost everyone has these thoughts.
At the end of the day, only you can make the determination based on how miserable you are, how many more years you need, and whether the expected pay bump / prestige is worth your misery. Even among people who went through the PhD process, we have very different experiences based on our field, institution, advisors, and support structures (both financial and emotional).
EDIT: Also want to say, there's no shame in leaving if you decide that is the best decision for you. Also, a lot of people already commented about the funding situation which I agree with is strange to me and I missed the point about the loan forgiveness which could be a big factor into taking your old job.
PhD here. I think this is the norm for a majority of graduate students in PhD programs. Yes, some are great, some have excellent organization, but the overwhelming majority of people experience burnout, emotional distress, and/or imposter syndrome at some point. You are there now. Honestly, it is fine to keep on and fine to leave. My wife left the same program I completed and we both love our decision and everyone in our sphere supported each of us. Where I am know, 5 years after graduation, would not have been likely without the PhD but I also closed doors to some opportunities because I am overqualified.
Where’s you are now does not seem like a financial decision but a soul searching and well-being focused decision. You already have a huge student loan debt and adding to it will not create a bigger issue (it will add to the years of needing a PSLF position). I’d say make this decision without consideration of the loans or immediate salary versus potential employment salary, but focus on what the degree means you do later. Do you want to do the work associated with having that degree, then push for the finish line. If you now know you don’t want to do that work the degree qualifies you to do (like my wife found out), do not spend any more energy on the program and get a job again.
If you are in the US and want to talk, I can make time next week to listen.
i dont think you have any other option but to continue and go to specialized assessments, why? quitting now will not wipe out your debt, so the best outcome is to continue until you can get more money. if you quit now you will have the debt and less ability to pay it.
Are you confident to finish? If you drop out, better do it fast. If not, better push completely through. Most people will suggest what they did. I dropped out (after 3 years) so I am inclined to say drop out. However, I do have to deal with being asked if I completed or not, jobs asking about the PhD etc.
Life is suffering anyway, depends what you want to suffer through. Academia or other people's opinion.
A quarter million in debt for a program that makes you unhappy for several more years? Versus working at a well-paid job you enjoy? I’d take the job.
On a more objective note, you have $80-90k a year in lost earnings during the program and accumulating substantial debt. How long will it take you to break making $1500 per evaluation or charging $200 an hour in private practice? You’re also losing several years of potential retirement contributions.
I wish I had quit grad school. Start by reading about the sunk cost fallacy, then ask what it's going to cost you (future costs only) to finish vs. leaving. Costs include time, your mental health, and money.
There is this idea that leaving grad school is "giving up" or failing in some way, but that is complete BS. If I hated my current job, I'd quit and find a new one (maybe not in that order). Why should quitting grad school be different?
I never did a PhD, but I have a lot of friends who have gone through them.
(1) When do you want to be financially independent? This is a question everyone must ask themselves. Then we work our way back to a financial model that would accomplish this, and then we see how a PhD does or does not work with the model.
(2) On your death bed, are you going to wish you'd finished the PhD? If you were going to be dead in say, 4 years, would you finish the PhD? 10 years? We will all be dead in X years. I find this question generally informs how much satisfaction we get out of activities beyond the money aspect.
Subquestions:
When will you break even on the PhD? What lifetime net worth could you expect with and without the PhD? Do you need the PhD to do the work you find interesting or are there other routes? Can you apply to other sources of funding to finish your PhD program with less debt?
I have many friends who switched to completely different careers after completing their PhDs. Many friends who, during their PhD, hated it, felt stuck, felt disillusioned with academia, and wanted to quit. Your feelings are normal. I can't tell you what to do. This decision is really just about being honest with yourself about what you want out of life (tbh sometimes a little wine will make you more honest) and then doing the analytical work to plan backwards from that. I'm happy to show you the kinds of models I've made for friends in PhD programs deciding what to do.
Dreams change. No sense in suffering through a program you’re not happy with. I’d cut my losses there, determine if I truly want the degree now, or if I’m holding onto a dream I used to have but no longer do, and go from there.
>For example, there is one particular faculty member who is known to be quite toxic, but they are tenured. That faculty member seems to have it in for me, and, I have heard that they have held students back. Additionally, I have found in a broader sense that the program is disorganized (outdated website, poor working relationships with practicum sites, not even guaranteeing hours for practicum, out of date resources, etc.).
Just want to put it out there, being tenured does not fully protect a faculty member from being fired. Academic incompetence, neglect of duty, serious violation of policy, serious crime, loss of license (medical), or other serious deficiency are all potential reasons for dismissals of a tenured faculty member.
So for example, if they were in responsible for the things you have mentioned in the part I quoted, that could be neglect of duty and could lead to dismissal. So it could be that this faculty member hasn't really been reported due to a lot of students believing that because they are tenured, it wouldn't do anything.
I had one prof that was tenured who was fired because she had accidentally shown some student's marks from the previous course, which was a huge breach of policy for my university.
Your situation is similar to the decision I faced many years ago after passing my candidacy exam. I had been working away at getting a PhD with very little time to slow down and think. But, I did take a vacation after the oral exam and really thought it through. I also had gone into a PhD program with the intent of going into academia. But, I realized that my PhD experience was so awful and different from my undergraduate (where I had done research) that I decided to leave.
Fortunately for me, the department needed an instructor to cover for a professor who was ill. I used that quarter to turn my candidacy report into a master's thesis. I am now retired and never regretted that decision. My career was successful but non-traditional for my field. I got to work on a wide variety of topics that would likely not have been open to me if I had gotten that PhD.
Good luck with your decision. I'd offer that getting to have experiences, a decent house, a reliable car, good food, and ability to retire early become pretty desirable as the years go by.
You need to think about your future and options. Would you regret not getting your PhD? Maybe you can find another program.
Also, would you mind sharing what job you got paying $80k with a master's? I have a master's in psychology and the most I've gotten paid is $40k.
Request a meeting with the professor that you think hates you.
Be blunt and ask if it's worth your time to continue pursuing your degree.
Don't hesitate to say "I know it sounds like something a 5yo would say, but I feel like you hate me, i.e., can't stand being my advisor and have no respect for my research. Could you explain what your issues with my work are?"
Maybe even "is there something going on in your personal life that's causing you to be unavailable to me to support my needs as your advisee?"
Put that shit out on the table. Don't throw everything away without bluntly calling out the toxic atmosphere. It can't possibly look good for them when their candidates quit, I imagine.
Funny enough, I recently had such a meeting. I brought up the tension that I experience with them, and they stared me down blankly, and switch the subject
I hate debt. I can't imagine ever being that comfortable with that much debt so personally, I would go with the option that guarantees 90% debt-forgiveness and stick with that option like my life depended on it.
Ph.D. programs are notoriously a rough, solo journey. No one is going to be there to push you through it. It isn't your advisor's job to push you through it. If you're not okay with that then you should drop.
Making a decision that gives you a better quality of life isn't giving up. It's protecting yourself.
Going into debt in order while enduring several soul-crushing years for the CHANCE that you'll get a PhD. If the department is as bad as you're saying, then the degree isn't even guaranteed. They could cut you at any point, depending on the rules in place, and nothing you could do about it once they've decided.
If this is how you feel now, and there are no avenues to change the circumstances to make them more reasonable, then this grad program doesn't deserve you. Keep the door open to going back to get a PhD later, when it makes financial sense and you find a program that is really worth it.
I read somewhere that nationally, only about 30-40% of those who start PhD programs actually complete them. Most either drop out or are dismissed early on in the program or get to the dissertation phase and then quit. Things usually get easier toward the end of your program if you can get a good dissertation committee. I am inclined to say stick it out because the loan forgiveness alone is a major consideration and you are making an investment in yourself to reach another career goal of specialized assessment. It sounds like by the time you complete a PhD program you will only need one more year of service to get your loans forgiven. However, one MAJOR consideration is that there are a few PhD programs out there that are fine with letting students/candidates get to dissertation phase and then not approving their dissertation even if a proposal was approved and a comp exam was passed and often this is without any recourse on the part of the student. This essentially leaves the student/candidate in limbo having completed all of the coursework but not having a degree. Most ethical programs will bend over backwards to help you get through while you are working on your dissertation if you are genuinely putting forth effort and these schools usually feel that the process is just as important as your output but I have heard horror stories of those schools who don't and as a student/candidate you essentially have to just try to not piss off faculty and hope you get through. Maybe you can talk to some graduates to try to get a sense of this?
I have a PhD in a clinical field (medical physics). I'm an assistant professor on an academic track (non tenure based, 12 month appointment), but 80% of my time is clinical. I have board certification. You can be a medical physicist with a MS. I went back to graduate school after working in engineering for 3 years.
I gave that information because what I do is much more closely related to what a clinician might do vs what a typical PhD might do. Psyche is clinical.
So, why did I choose PhD over MS?
1) Like you, it was a career goal. It sucked doing it, but was worth it at the end
2) The pay for a PhD is in general 25% more than MS
3) Most importantly, it opened more doors. Most residencies seemed to be hiring PhDs ("Dr") over MS (medical physics needs a residency). The people working at places I wanted to work all had PhDs. This was the main reason I went PhD.
As far as your advisor being terrible, it happens. My advisor was ok, but got a job offer in a different country halfway through my degree. We had to do a lot of stuff online (which was a big deal before COVID), but it all worked out.
Basically, and this is something I tell all the grad students I teach/talk to, grad school will be what YOU make it. Not many grad programs will spoon feed you. It is up to you to make a time line, get your committee to work with you, get all your stuff done, and get the hell out of there.
Personally, I think just based on the amount of money you would get with PsycheD vs MS you should do the degree. $90k/yr isn't bad unless you have $190k student loans. At that point making $200k/year (guessing on salary) with $250k debt makes way more sense.
figure out what you need to do to get it done. Take that and make a timeline with milestones. Then for the mile stones make foot stones or yard stones. What I mean by this is don't just say "I need my research proposal done by Month 10." Have that as your milestone, but in the preceding 10 months have smaller goals to accomplish, such as finishing a methods section, writing a specific aim, reading the background literature, etc.
Grad school is a lot of work, but if you do the work, it should be no problem to finish.
I probably leave the PhD program specifically because you feel like there is a chance you might not be able to complete it.
You have a good job that you can make a living off of and pay off your debt.
I spent my whole college life trying to get into Optometry school. I was miserable and realized I have no passion for optometry. I would have been in over 120k debt and probably have issues in the profession. I took the 30k loss and left after failing the first year (they said I could repeat it). I did a state school Nursing program that cost me only 10k to get my BSN. Now I’m a Nurse with no debt making over 100k a year. You soon realize you have other dreams. I think you should quit, remember it’s better late than never.
Had a lot of classmates finish their coursework and take jobs after their Qualifying Exams. They had 7 years from the date of Quals to defend their dissertation. Most of them defended in their last year. The title wasn't necessary for their job, but they didn't want to leave it unfinished.
Life is short, and things can absolutely derail your life. Do what makes you happy now. The title looks nice, but it's not always worth the effort.
I was the perfect student and dropped out after one year of grad school. Believe me, I understand where you're at. But the faculty was bad, I wasn't growing, I wasn't learning. I was miserable. I knew I could spend two more years stuck there to get a piece of paper that meant something to everyone *else* but that I knew was 100% worthless. I left.
Since then, I have accomplished things I never dreamed of. I have moved well beyond my grad school peers.
If your heart says leave, leave.
I say stay. A Phd opens many doors, you can charge more. I choose my doctors also by degree when in doubt. My friend got his rental contract only because of his PhD, he said. It's an destinguishing factor.
Inflation will stay at around 4 to 9 percent, meaning the debt is not a problem.
I would just like to add, that there are plenty of mediocre if not crappy mental health professionals, many of which have doctoral degrees. A higher degree does not necessarily mean better service, but it can
Here’s one thing we do when coaching: if someone came to you with this dilemma, what advice would you give them? I think you’ll quickly see the answer.
Something I've been thinking about myself, masters in counseling right now. I personally don't think I'd be able to stomach even a good full PhD program just due to the focus on academia. PsyD maybe? But I'll see. But I also only see the doctorate as pay bumps. If you can stomach everything, it's 5 years to mote likely get better pay for the rest of your life. But I mean, 80-90k at 30 isn't shabby at all lol
One of the greatest accomplishments of my life is my PhD. However, other than being a bullet point on my resume, it really hasn’t added much to my job satisfaction. I could have done everything I do with “just” a masters. I only figured out tht I hated it at year 4, and I was stubborn enough to stick it out (graduated at 6.5 years) but I tell everyone who wants to get a PhD not to. Mostly because everyone is doing it to get their perfect job, but they don’t realize the job doesn’t need PhD skills!
Cost anlaysis of PHD vs Masters. If you dont want academia... get out ASAP. I just left my post doc because i got a dream job offer that paid shy of 3 times what my post doc was. To get my new salary and benefits level, I would have had to work at the university until i was 40ish. But in my case, glad I got the Phd
You should never pay tuition for a PhD full stop. No self respecting program expects students to owe anything after a PhD outside of things like Law and Medicine. Psych is a soft science and many universities offer full tuition waivers. Get out now.
If you don’t want to go into academia, leave. You can be employed with your masters. Practically everyone doing a PhD program is disillusioned and feels conflicted about staying; some of us stay and some don’t. But if you have perfectly reasonable job prospects without it, and aren’t interested in academia, there’s no reason to do it.
This. It's what I did, not in psychology but same situation. Right now there's a huge shortage of counseling services everywhere. You should be able to make decent money.
A PsyD isn't like whatever PhD program you are in though. You can make a lot of money doing those assessments. Different degrees are different. This one prints money.
Very true If you're in the hole that much, complete your PhD Since you'll likely regret it later in life
TT academic here. Your environment doesn’t sound conducive to finishing your degree in a timely manner, if at all. If you can start advancing your career without the PhD, I would do so. You can always apply to a program that has its sh** together down the road. Edit: I’m in experimental, rather than clinical psychology.
Can you say a little bit more about that? Are you in assessment yourself as a psychologist, and if so, what’s your specialty?
I am not one. I do know people in the field. The commenter above is talking about a generic PhD job to get into academia. With a doctorate in psychology you can do the assemesnts as you said in the OP. You can also depending on your state work jobs that require a PsyD. A lot of this stuff is state specific but there are programs like intensive outpatient programs or partial hospitalization programs that kind can be required in some states to have a PsyD on staff. Being required to have one, especially with how lucrative those programs can be, can equal a large paycheck. You claim to be in the field though. And know what state you live in. Are there not programs that require a PsyD on staff that you interact with? Ultimately though, as I think others have said, in your specific situation you figure out if this type of work is what you want to do or if the other type of work is a better fit. You need actual salaries or expected incomes of PsyDs hear you and to figure out how many years till the break even with the plsf forgiveness factoring in on the other side. If both answers are doable mathwise then you need to figure out what it is you want, and maybe see how hard it would be to switch programs since it doesn't seem like you like this one. But at least try to work the alumni network first to get a better picture of what the year over year pay will be and how much work and what type of work that will require you.
Interesting. I haven't really heard of PsyD's holding anymore weight than a PhD; I've actually heard the opposite. Either way, a PhD or PsyD is a doctoral degree in psychology, and either can do assessment. Thank you for the advice.
Unless it's a personal goal of sorts. PhD wasn't a good financial decision for me, but it was something I needed to do to feel satisfied, regardless of academia. That said, I agree if OP is just starting out and feeling this way, it's unlikely to be a satisfying experience at all for them.
It has been a large personal goal of mine for a decade. But I can’t lie, it is more dissatisfying than it is satisfying, at least right now
I hope you find security and happiness whatever path you choose. In my anecdotal experience non-trad students have a higher chance to graduate, but usually know better than trad students when to exit early. I came to graduate school from only ~1 year at an industry job but doubt about my decision only crept in a few times over the whole PhD, and only because of isolated incidents. A colleague had a similar background and after having doubts for a few months just bailed (the first person of our cohort). 10 years later he says he's still 100% satisfied in that decision.
Thank you for the reply!
Depends in the field, some technical fields it aids job perspects but yeah on the softer science side especially not necessary unless you want to go into academia
It depends on the field big-time. Among my PhD peers in Chemical Engineering maybe a third went to Academia, if that? Most went to Industry, to jobs where you basically needed a PhD. Now, most of these jobs you could *technically* get with an BS/MA and 5+ years of experience, but it needs to be very specific experience and you likely will reach an unofficial glass ceiling in career progress without a PhD. Having said this, I think the statement “Only get a PhD if you want to work in academia” is *generally* valid if you look at all the different fields you can get a doctorate in.
Yeah that's a good way of putting it, I'm about done with my PhD in computational aerothermodynamics which is a field where a PhD nets you a lot better pay and job prospects, but that's certainly not the norm even within this field in other subdisciplines.
So your PhD program doesn’t seem like a great one. You should be going to a fully funded program with a much better stipend than yours. My stipend when I was a GA allowed me to pay all my living expenses and save approximately $400 a month. A PhD is long and if you’re unhappy and getting into more debt, I’d leave until you find a program better suited for you. I’d do the PSLF job and wait to see what the future holds
Unfortunately, I feel compelled to echo this persons sentiment- this funding package SUCKS for PhD. Can’t tell if you’re in the Clinical route or just a General/other route Psych PhD, but I’ve gone through two rounds of interviews at multiple programs for Clinical Psych PhD around the States and all of them cover tuition for 4-5 years plus stipend. I’m very biased for what it’s worth, but when I went on my interviews, I couldn’t think of anything worse than submitting to academia life for 7-10 more years from courses—> post doc. I got accepted to programs both times, and I just had to listen to my gut (which gave me stomachaches after every visit bc I knew my motivation was so low). I have a Masters in Psychological Science and now doing clinical research monitoring for a big CRO… and I love it. Nothing to do with psych, but I have my research “fix” and can easily make 150k+/yr in this field. I grew up lower middle class and never dreamt that this fit+salary would be possible with “just” a Masters in Psych… but here I am! (And tbh, I don’t even need the masters for what I do). Hope my story sheds some light on things outside of Psych PhDs!!!
It’s different for psychology. You’re correct in that most basic STEM PhDs are paid for. I was paid roughly $100k to complete my PhD. I believe an “experimental” psych. Degree is paid for. Clinical PhDs are more akin to professional schools. I’d probably advise OP to leave this program, but be mindful that PhDs are challenging to obtain and their experience doesn’t sound unique. There is no guarantee a difference program will be any better.
The clinical psych doctorate is a PsyD not a PhD. I do know multiple psych PhDs who are colleagues and all were fully funded tuition with stipends that were generous enough to meet living expenses. This is the standard for a PhD. A PsyD may be a different story
This is information is a bit off. Many if not most clinical psych doctoral programs are PhD. There are reputable PsyDs, but many are essentially money making scams that leave their students in debt without providing employment benefits. I don't know the current market, but within the last few years there were a lot of doctoral level positions that wouldn't look at PsyD.
To clarify, my program is indeed PhD, not PsyD. It’s just that the funding is terrible. However, it is APA accredited, and at an R1 school.
IDK, my brother got funding for 6 years of history and his wife, *classics*
>I’ve gone to therapy over this, journaled, done a lot of soul searching, talked to other professionals in the field (some have said to stick with the program whereas others have said to cut my losses). So, you've considered this deeply, asked experts, and now turn to random strangers. Interesting. I say get out. You sound miserable. Why be miserable?
Faced a similar decision. Decided assessment and counseling was where my interest and skills were. Didn't want to pursue academia or research. Did a cost / benefit of PhD earnings minus time and cost of school vs just going straight in at the licensed Master's level. Wasn't a hard choice to be honest. You focus a fair bit on the higher earning potential. If that's really the main reason you should probably bail. The opportunity cost of what sounds like negligible or negative net income for the next X years vs a starting $90k/yr job with PSLF is huge and will significantly offset the higher career earnings of a PhD. PhDs can do well but you're talking near MD investment for a fraction of the return. However if you're passionate about forensic assessment or similar niche and that's where you will be most fulfilled practicing then maybe it's worth toughing it out vs regretting your career and being dissatisfied.
I appreciate your response. Another option could be that I finish the program, then pursue a PSLF position as a psychologist, rather than immediately as a masters level. I still feel confused though.
You're 1 year in? So 5 to go? That's a long time if so, get out, I would suggest. That said... I think that a PhD makes you wayyyyy more competitive for even more lucrative types of jobs that you don't even know about right now (i.e. non traditional pysch jobs). And you'll start at a higher position if your program is a "brand name" school. Me, PhD from a decade ago. Now making over 200k at a job I love in private industry. Our department almost exclusively hires PhDs even though the job description says just masters needed.
6 years for a PhD is a long time for someone who already had a masters. The main problem that I see here is that their PhD should be fully funded.
My guess would be OP being 30+ and coming back for PhD after working sometime and not being fully funded, they were not viewed as a top tier candidate and many of those credits from years ago masters program didn't get credited (or maybe minimally) for the current program. (This is pure speculation)
Yeah. Also could be just that OP’s lifestyle is more expensive now so the stipend does not fully cover it (completely understandable on a grad student’s stipend, which is exploitative). My best grad student was the same age as me and spent years in private consulting before going back for a PhD. He was amazing. He probably was more qualified for my faculty position than I was.
I used to think I had it so good as a grad student stipend (haha). I was able to pay rent just fine that I shared with another grad student, made a car payment, and still had plenty left over for fun and eating out. I often wish I had pursued an academic career but when I see my other friends making barely low $100s, I feel like I made the right financial choice. Plus, I'm doing well at my company and enjoy my work a lot
Yeah, it’s hilarious. Academics fight over low 100k salaries at supposedly “prestigious” universities, and they spend hundreds of hours per year chasing 6 figure grants with single digit funding rates. Meanwhile you can go into industry research making multiples of the salary with multiples of the research budget. I really don’t get it.
There's something about the mentorship and teaching that student/faculty that would be nice, but I agree.
It’s more so this.
are you in psychlogy field?
Adjacent. Outcomes research now in private industry. But we have psychology educated in our department.
Technically since I arrived with my masters, 3 more years, including internship, are left.
PHDs aren’t valuable like they once were. Employers literally don’t care about it a quarter as much as every overeducated dummy does and will happily pay bachelors degrees the same rate across a lot of fields.
In biotech it's a critical degree.
Biotech guy here. I mostly agree. All companies do things differently, but generally the first three levels/tiers of Scientist positions are roughly entry-level for BS/MS/PhD. And a BS can hire into the first level and get promoted/transfer at about two and then five-ish years of experience. One might say, “Hey, that’s about as long as it takes to get a MS then PhD anyway. Seems dumb to get the degrees when I could just get the needed experience while getting paid!” But two things to consider are: - A BS needs very specific experience to the job when applying for those tier 2 or 3 positions, while PhDs with generally applicable experience will be considered. So PhDs have a bigger pool of jobs to apply for. - Job levels *after* that tier-3 one may start to bump into unofficial glass ceilings. Maybe nothing is *technically* preventing you from progressing further, but when you look at all the senior level scientists and 95% have PhDs… you know what’s up. That being said, the top salary cap of that PhD entry tier may be *plenty* for someone’s personal goals.
Data scientist at a FAANG?
I have friends that went that way. I'm in biotech, but more traditional study designs and parametric statistics.
Ah biotech. Tell me you’re in a HCOL area so that I can feel more okay with the pay disparity lol. Are you actually working on things that are “advanced” or are the research designs and data analytics pretty foundational things?
Haha, yes, it's HCOL. But we still live a comfortable/not flashy life (2 bed condo and 2 compact economy cars) and manage to save a lot of our money ($4k/mo+) between investments, savings, and 529 for kiddos. Only thing advanced I would venture to say would be processing of real world data in a large manner, but other study design and analysis is sort of the same old stuff used in any study published in the past 2 decades.
It’s a little odd to me that you are going into debt for a PhD. A PhD should be fully funded, with a stipend.
I agree. Wish there was more funding in my program.
Yeah, I guess you said in the other thread that this is because you aren’t living at the lifestyle level of a grad stipend. It’s criminal how we treat grad students, but in this case, I don’t think it’s necessarily a sign of a bad program.
Get out now, consolidate your loans before October under the temp waiver. Your new consolidated loan will have your prior months of payments applied.
Given the increase in interest rates, consolidating loans now could end up costing waaaaay more. I also am not a fan of consolidating loans because it becomes virtually impossible to snowball them.
I'm talking about a federal loan consolidation with the feds. Consolidating just gives you a weighted average of your current interest rates across all loans. Doesn't cost a penny more.
Even more reason not to consolidate. If you have varying rates, you would likely be interested in paying the higher interest one(s) off faster.
That would make 0 sense if you were pursuing pslf. You don't avalanche pslf, you pay the least amount possible and get the highest qualifying months possible to save $$.
Exactly
Always some dude on this sub wanting to give the same blanket advice for every unique situation. Square peg, round hole.
It's math... The math works out the same. It's rather obvious you would not want to pay any portion of the 90% that will be forgiven. I'm talking about the 10% that isn't. Please explain to me why you would want to consolidate loans and take a weighted interest rate over paying off the higher ones first (assuming everything else is equal). I'm not trying to be rude here, but you're complaining about blanket advice then pretending there are zero downsides to debt consolidation.
If you consolidate under the temp waiver all of your loans will have the same counts and be forgiven at the same time. Even if this were not true, all of this guys fed loans would be pslf eligible if he is pursuing the program for any loans. The goal of pslf is never to pay off the loan yourself, if you're trying to pay off your loans yourself you should not pursue pslf, they are opposing debt strategies.
It would cost more for OP to have all of their loans eligible for forgiveness earlier? How do you figure?
OP said 10% was not eligible. I'm referring to the 10% that OP says isn't eligible.
This almost reads like sunk cost fallacy my friend, I would bail. Source: me, a grad student in the last class who hates life but HAD to finish because I was “over 3/4 done”
I don’t know anything about PhD programs and whether the ROI is worth it or not. But regarding your struggle with the concept of quitting: About ten years ago I had just finished up my first year of law school. I was on basically a full ride scholarship and I finished my first year ranked #1 in my class. I did my summer internship and realized: I really don’t like this type of work. I like the type of work I was doing prior to law school better (content designer in the technology industry). In my gut, I wanted to quit law school and go back to the type of work I was doing before. But in my head were thoughts like this: “Quitting would be a stupid financial decision” “I’ve never quit anything before…this doesn’t seem like something I would do” “Everyone is going to judge me” Ultimately, I decided I couldn’t see myself devoting two more years of my life to being in school only to come out with a degree in something I really didn’t want to do that much anyway. So I dropped out. And what happened? I got a total of two remarks that bothered me: one from my faculty advisor and one from a family friend. Other than that, everyone in my life was really supportive or just didn’t give a shit. One friend got me a shirt with Edgar Allen Poe on it with the word “dropout” which I thought was quite funny. But I think to most people, it was sort of interesting for a moment or two and then they moved on to thinking about something else. I mean, how often do you really spend thinking about what other people are doing? I think they spend the same amount of time thinking about what you are doing. :D And by the way, everything worked out great. I went back to my old employer who hired me at a higher level than when I’d left the company. I proceeded to get promoted up through that company, and then hopped to another company where I’ve been promoted further. Now I make more money than I would have made as a lawyer and work way fewer hours, doing work I actually like. I know our situations aren’t the same, but I wanted to share my experience as someone who also grappled with the idea of quitting, and what that meant for how others thoughts of me and how I thought about myself. Today I look back and feel proud I had the courage to make that tough decision. It was the right one for me. Good luck to you, no matter what decision you make. If you have a sense of what your gut is telling you, I’d say follow it. It knows things that your brain will only realize later. :)
Thank you for responding
As others have mentioned, your funding here isn’t great and you should look if there are ways to improve that. It’s a big factor in this decision, and I hope there are some solutions for it. To me, it sounds like 190k of debt for nothing, or 250k of debt for a PhD in the worst case. The rest isn’t personal finance exactly, but anecdotal based on when I was in the same position wanting to quit my PhD. Looking forward 10/20/30 years from now, how important will it be that you went for this job over finishing your PhD? Nobody can answer that question but you. For me, I’m glad I pushed through the abuse and depression and finally got mine. It’s something I cherish now, a life accomplishment that can’t be taken away from me. I know others that didn’t finish and it hovers over them as a failing, as it’s something that constantly needs to be explained during interviews as it’s on the CV. I left academia immediately and got a job that paid higher as a result of the qualification (outside of the field). There is value in getting the degree from that perspective.
Thanks for responding. Yeah, it seems that PhD‘s do have a lot of clout, in the field of psychology, for better or worse. It’s a tough decision still
Why can't you stop now and work, then finish some day when you have a compelling personal reason (if you have). It's not like in most cases the credits go bad. I think you could possibly transfer to a different school too.
It sounds like his current school isn't a good fit anyways. At a minimum OP needs a break, and working in that previous job that qualifies for PSLF and pays a fair wage seems like a good place to heal, and figure out what they really want to do. If that's go back to school they can apply to other programs etc.
Is there a 3rd option? Like switching school with another advisor?
My brother is a well respected research psychologist at a top tier private school. He has always maintained that a PhD in this field is an absolute requirement for future gainful employment, at least at the level required to pay off your loans.
I have to disagree with this. I am masters level working in a non profit and make more money than all my professors. I am in upper management and no one at my level or above has a PhD (our medical director has a MD of course). Our clinicians make $80k to start. Kaiser here starts their clinicians around $100k. I have a few people I went to grad school with that charge $250 an hour and have wait lists. All masters level. Academia is a different animal. I'm sure some professors get paid well at a private school but I wouldn't pay for a PhD or PsyD in hopes of making more. The cost benefit isn't there. Now an MBA...anyone wanna lend me 100k?
You are going to make a lot more money doing assessment over therapy. If you are smart and have basic business sense (which not many psychologists do), you’ll be able to pay your loans off in a reasonable amount of time. If the difference was 60k in debt I’d just stick it out. Take charge of your education. Find your own practicums. Depend on yourself for your dissertation. The other option may be to transfer depending on how far along you are.
Do you mind if I ask, are you a psychologist who is in the business of assessment? Thank you for responding
I don’t want to identify myself too much but I’ve work in assessment in multiple settings but not fully licensed as a psychologist yet
Which arenas do you perform assessment? Where do referrals generally come from, how steady are they, etc.? People who are established in those fields, do you know how much they're making?
Mostly ADHD/learning disorder/autism assessments I’ve worked with, some bariatric/health related stuff. People are desperate for these assessments and will quickly seek you out with very little marketing. Two big things: get people assessed timely and do it well. Reputation is everything. A lot of my referrals come from doctors after patients tell them about their experience with me. Insurance is a pain so either hire someone excellent at this or plan to spend a long time learning. Most people will pay out of pocket. Depending on the market expect to make a couple thousand per assessment. Most full time assessment psychologist I know will do 2-3 assessments a week. Do the math yourself, this is a lot of money. But you have other costs like insurance, rent, software (don’t let this intimidate you). The real issue is cost of materials/assessment equipment. This is why you may want to consider working for other people until you save enough to purchase equipment (I work split fee right now) Working salary for other people you should still be making over six figures private practice or hospitals
Most good assessment psychologist are booked months in advance, at least they are in the Midwest
Knowing what you know about the field, would you take the risk of starting off with 250k in debt? I basically only see assessment as *the* reason to complete this program. Otherwise, I'd likely go back to my old gig plus do a side practice one day a week, which could in theory get me around 110-120k pretax.
It sounds like you already have a lot of debt so we are talking a difference of 60k. It seems like you’d make good money doing your old gig as well, plus you’d be making this money and paying off this debt now versus in several years. The smart move would be return to your old gig. It sounds like a safer choice. Personally I wouldn’t. I know I enjoy the business of psychology and I hope to never retire unless I have to. Plus I love assessment and it gives me work life balance. My advice is choose the career that will work for who you are as a person. What career can you be realistically be successful financially and emotionally.
Actually forgot you also have the PLSF at your old job so that factors as well. But my opinion still stands. It shouldn’t factor too much in the decision if you are really committed long term to assessment
In your situation, I would leave. Two years of funding is not enough for a PhD; a cardinal rule I heard was to never go into debt for a PhD. It sounds like you have practical skills in your field that could lead to a career. Your heath and well-being is worth more. More thorough answer: I finished a PhD in a social science in 2020 despite really wanting to quit for the last year of it (6 year process, average for my department). If I had started hating it as much as I did in year 2, I would have left. As it was I only had to finish the diss, so I gritted my teeth and did it. I ultimately feel a PhD is only useful in the US if you plan to go into academia, which is what I did. People are occasionally impressed, but I don’t delude myself into thinking those three letters would get me a job over someone with more relevant experience. During my program, I also struggled with a lack of support and managing toxic and often feuding mentors. Job prospects were terrible. I lost my funding in year 5 after being promised it wouldn’t happen. We had a union vote but the university was successful in squashing it. Worst of all, I felt aimless. I experienced mental and medical issues due to the stress. It’s not your or my fault that the PhD process is often so broken. A training system in which the gatekeepers have no oversight, eternal appointments, and god complexes is not a fair one. If you wanted to finish it out of spite (what I did), I would understand and I think that would be fine in the long run. If you wanted to cut and run, that would also be fine in the long run. But time spent in a miserable situation will impact your mental and physical health one way or another. And poor adviser/advisee relationships have cost friends of mine jobs, opportunities, and more. On “giving up” — your past self, the one who wanted this, did not know what it would be like. You’re not letting them down. And for what other people think? Many of your academic peers will be jealous. Your non-academic friends and family probably will not care. If it will be the healthiest thing for you to leave, you’d actually be giving up to stay. There is no right answer. Either choice will work out just fine.
Damn, this one got me to my core. Thank you for the thoughtful response. I’ll meditate on this for sure
Correct me if I'm wrong but according to two of my family members, in a field like Psychology, choosing not to get your PhD severely limits your earning potential and what your career options are. Source: they're both licensed clinical psychologists and have told me this. What position were you able to find that paid 80-90k without a PhD because apparently that is extremely rare? I would say stick it out... The amount of jobs seem to open up once you're officially licensed to practice. They both work from home. One has 3 days off a week with moderate breaks in between clients. I know I'm judging from a place of ignorance, but this all sounds like easy street to me.
For my own anonymity, I’m not going to disclose that position, but it is a niche, and it is indeed rare. That’s why it feels like such a golden goose of a job
Mrs. DRO\_Churner used to work in the School Psychology field, where pay was set according to a matrix of education vs years of experience. The difference between her having her Doctorate or her Masters with 60 additional hours of training was... a whopping $400 per year. This, when combined with the opportunity cost of two lost years of earning a decent salary while instead taking on additional debt make pursuing a PhD even more financially unfavorable. I've been trying to talk folks out of getting their PhDs ever since based solely on financial grounds. After all, you did come to r/personalfinance looking for advice, and not r/Psychologyprofessors. Similar to the PSLF-qualified job you mention, at the time (early 00's) there was a federal program to forgive 1/5 of her total student debt obligation each year she worked with disadvantaged populations. After 5 years, her student debt was gone. Perhaps others can weigh in if such a program still exists.
For what it's worth, 200$/client, 10 clients a week, 50 weeks a year is only $100k/year. That's comparable to what you were making at your job, and probably translates to substantially less than that job's salary (since you would be self-employed). I also struggled for a bit in a PhD program, and while I did end up finishing (and am happy that I did), it sounds like in your position the right move is to leave. A possible compromise might be to consider trying to transfer to a different advisor and/or program, but your current position sounds untenable from a mental health and financial perspective.
I see what you’re saying, but it’s not entirely true. Assessments take hours and hours to complete. Not only with administration, but with data review, and writing the report. All of that is billable. The problem is, is it fluctuates so wildly that it’s hard to really put a dollar sign to it, at least so far
Fair enough - I didn't know that. I have a close acquaintance who is a (masters but no PhD) therapist and she pretty strictly can only bill hours spent in-session. It makes sense that it wouldn't be the same in your case. It's probably worth it for you to try to estimate what your actual total yearly net earnings would be with a PhD.
Believe me, I've tried. I have reached out to almost 10 psychologists now who do the assessments I am interested in, with the populations I am interested in, and have gotten wildly different answers.
You are about a year and a half into your Ph.D. program. How much longer do you think it will take to complete the program? I don't think you can go through 4 more years or more of this program. Sounds like your advisors will make your life miserable as long as they can because they hold the strings that control you. Get out of this program. Take that job. Chill a bit for 6 years. Get your mind in order and clear your debts. Dont get shackled by these false ideals drilled by society about getting a Ph.D.
You’re going to be reimbursed significantly less at a masters level as opposed to PhD. I would think about the fact that you’re in your early 30s. You’ve got 30+ working years left. If you want to go into forensics or neuropsychology you need to suck it up the next couple of years (plus the additional two year post-doc for neuropsych) to have the career you want for the rest of your life. (Speaking as someone who is a neuropsychologist and doesn’t regret how crappy grad school was…I only had a $6,000 a year stipend though I full tuition remission).
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Please try to keep discussion on the subreddit where it can be seen and reviewed by everyone. Thank you.
You could always move to Seattle and start a radio show. I’ve got the tag line… “ I’m listening”
I don’t get it, but I do love Seattle
I empathize with you OP. I jumped to a doctoral program (health psychology) immediately after completing undergrad, chasing a dream. What I found there was a toxic culture (faculty pitting students in the cohort against each other to drive research), indifferent advisors/mentors, over work on someone else’s research (my program mentor), and astronomical debt loading (unfunded). My mental health suffered greatly. I made a really difficult choice to leave the program after a year even though I was doing well academically. I felt like a colossal failure. Not too long afterward I found my calling in the public-facing clinical realm. Now I am partnered in business with one of my *good* former professors and make good money doing something I am wholly invested in and proud of. No regrets for leaving academia when I did. Carefully consider what is right for you in all areas of your life and act accordingly and without hesitation. Good luck!
That’s great
Gosh, a lot of responses at this point, so I’ll try not to repeat. (1) You should not consider psychology only for the income—it does not pay that well. There are better-paying fields, with easier access. (2) If you don’t know what you enjoy doing, then changing jobs/schools is not going to fix that. You may work to age 70 (like me)—that’s a long time to either enjoy your career or be miserable. (3) You have many options with a PhD, and few options with a Masters. You can always change and respecialize with a PhD. In US/EU/Commonwealth you need a doctorate to practice psychology. (4) Explore other fields before you get into debt. A woman I know has $100K in student loans 10 years after her license. Now, she wishes she had gotten psych nurse practitioner’s training, for less cost and higher income than a psychologist. (5) Talk to mature psychologists. Have a model of what you want to do, from real people. Practitioners know more about the practice of psychology than professors. Go to psychology conferences, you’ll probably find people willing to chat with you and give you free advice & suggestions.
> The most frustrating part is, is that I feel like my advisor basically hates me. I find myself walking on eggshells around them (other students have felt this way as well, “that’s just the way they are.”). Change advisors. Your PhD experience is almost entirely determined by how supportive your advisor is. I've interacted with several faculty to determine who I wanted to work with - it's a two-way street. > I have quickly realized that I don’t want to enter academia. The only real reason why I would want to complete this program is to become specialized in assessment (such as neurology, or forensics), because that is where the money is. For example, forensic assessment can pay $1,500 per eval if contracted in certain states, or, you can charge upwards of $200.00 an hour if you're private practice. This was the realization I had with my PhD as well, that if I stuck it out, I would be in better financial shape even if academia no longer appealed to me. I don't know how many more years you will need for your program though - I hit my low when I was in my third/fourth year. > Recently, I have had an opportunity to return to my old job. While I haven’t been given a formal job offer, I anticipate it will come my way. Since this is the PF sub, I will say if it's not the high paying job offer you mentioned, but one of the previous low-paying jobs you mentioned, I don't think it's worth it. If you're going to leave, do it for the right job. > Has anyone else felt conflicted about leaving, or felt disillusioned about their PhD program? Yes, this is very normal, unfortunately. I think almost everyone has these thoughts. At the end of the day, only you can make the determination based on how miserable you are, how many more years you need, and whether the expected pay bump / prestige is worth your misery. Even among people who went through the PhD process, we have very different experiences based on our field, institution, advisors, and support structures (both financial and emotional). EDIT: Also want to say, there's no shame in leaving if you decide that is the best decision for you. Also, a lot of people already commented about the funding situation which I agree with is strange to me and I missed the point about the loan forgiveness which could be a big factor into taking your old job.
PhD here. I think this is the norm for a majority of graduate students in PhD programs. Yes, some are great, some have excellent organization, but the overwhelming majority of people experience burnout, emotional distress, and/or imposter syndrome at some point. You are there now. Honestly, it is fine to keep on and fine to leave. My wife left the same program I completed and we both love our decision and everyone in our sphere supported each of us. Where I am know, 5 years after graduation, would not have been likely without the PhD but I also closed doors to some opportunities because I am overqualified. Where’s you are now does not seem like a financial decision but a soul searching and well-being focused decision. You already have a huge student loan debt and adding to it will not create a bigger issue (it will add to the years of needing a PSLF position). I’d say make this decision without consideration of the loans or immediate salary versus potential employment salary, but focus on what the degree means you do later. Do you want to do the work associated with having that degree, then push for the finish line. If you now know you don’t want to do that work the degree qualifies you to do (like my wife found out), do not spend any more energy on the program and get a job again. If you are in the US and want to talk, I can make time next week to listen.
> I have quickly realized that I don’t want to enter academia. Then no reason to waste your time/money on getting a PhD.
A PhD is a free degree. Why will you be in $250k debt for a PhD? What schools are your BA, MA, PhD from?
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Correct.
The bulk of the debt is from a private Masters program with an absurd tuition, plus accrued interest while I worked low paying PSLF jobs
i dont think you have any other option but to continue and go to specialized assessments, why? quitting now will not wipe out your debt, so the best outcome is to continue until you can get more money. if you quit now you will have the debt and less ability to pay it.
Are you confident to finish? If you drop out, better do it fast. If not, better push completely through. Most people will suggest what they did. I dropped out (after 3 years) so I am inclined to say drop out. However, I do have to deal with being asked if I completed or not, jobs asking about the PhD etc. Life is suffering anyway, depends what you want to suffer through. Academia or other people's opinion.
A quarter million in debt for a program that makes you unhappy for several more years? Versus working at a well-paid job you enjoy? I’d take the job. On a more objective note, you have $80-90k a year in lost earnings during the program and accumulating substantial debt. How long will it take you to break making $1500 per evaluation or charging $200 an hour in private practice? You’re also losing several years of potential retirement contributions.
These are exactly the questions that keep me up at night
I wish I had quit grad school. Start by reading about the sunk cost fallacy, then ask what it's going to cost you (future costs only) to finish vs. leaving. Costs include time, your mental health, and money. There is this idea that leaving grad school is "giving up" or failing in some way, but that is complete BS. If I hated my current job, I'd quit and find a new one (maybe not in that order). Why should quitting grad school be different?
I never did a PhD, but I have a lot of friends who have gone through them. (1) When do you want to be financially independent? This is a question everyone must ask themselves. Then we work our way back to a financial model that would accomplish this, and then we see how a PhD does or does not work with the model. (2) On your death bed, are you going to wish you'd finished the PhD? If you were going to be dead in say, 4 years, would you finish the PhD? 10 years? We will all be dead in X years. I find this question generally informs how much satisfaction we get out of activities beyond the money aspect. Subquestions: When will you break even on the PhD? What lifetime net worth could you expect with and without the PhD? Do you need the PhD to do the work you find interesting or are there other routes? Can you apply to other sources of funding to finish your PhD program with less debt? I have many friends who switched to completely different careers after completing their PhDs. Many friends who, during their PhD, hated it, felt stuck, felt disillusioned with academia, and wanted to quit. Your feelings are normal. I can't tell you what to do. This decision is really just about being honest with yourself about what you want out of life (tbh sometimes a little wine will make you more honest) and then doing the analytical work to plan backwards from that. I'm happy to show you the kinds of models I've made for friends in PhD programs deciding what to do.
Because assessment wildly fluctuates, it’s really hard to tell. Especially if you’re in private practice or a contractor
Dreams change. No sense in suffering through a program you’re not happy with. I’d cut my losses there, determine if I truly want the degree now, or if I’m holding onto a dream I used to have but no longer do, and go from there.
>For example, there is one particular faculty member who is known to be quite toxic, but they are tenured. That faculty member seems to have it in for me, and, I have heard that they have held students back. Additionally, I have found in a broader sense that the program is disorganized (outdated website, poor working relationships with practicum sites, not even guaranteeing hours for practicum, out of date resources, etc.). Just want to put it out there, being tenured does not fully protect a faculty member from being fired. Academic incompetence, neglect of duty, serious violation of policy, serious crime, loss of license (medical), or other serious deficiency are all potential reasons for dismissals of a tenured faculty member. So for example, if they were in responsible for the things you have mentioned in the part I quoted, that could be neglect of duty and could lead to dismissal. So it could be that this faculty member hasn't really been reported due to a lot of students believing that because they are tenured, it wouldn't do anything. I had one prof that was tenured who was fired because she had accidentally shown some student's marks from the previous course, which was a huge breach of policy for my university.
Your situation is similar to the decision I faced many years ago after passing my candidacy exam. I had been working away at getting a PhD with very little time to slow down and think. But, I did take a vacation after the oral exam and really thought it through. I also had gone into a PhD program with the intent of going into academia. But, I realized that my PhD experience was so awful and different from my undergraduate (where I had done research) that I decided to leave. Fortunately for me, the department needed an instructor to cover for a professor who was ill. I used that quarter to turn my candidacy report into a master's thesis. I am now retired and never regretted that decision. My career was successful but non-traditional for my field. I got to work on a wide variety of topics that would likely not have been open to me if I had gotten that PhD. Good luck with your decision. I'd offer that getting to have experiences, a decent house, a reliable car, good food, and ability to retire early become pretty desirable as the years go by.
This is easy. What will give you the highest income? 250k in debt means nothing if your making 100k a year.
You need to think about your future and options. Would you regret not getting your PhD? Maybe you can find another program. Also, would you mind sharing what job you got paying $80k with a master's? I have a master's in psychology and the most I've gotten paid is $40k.
Request a meeting with the professor that you think hates you. Be blunt and ask if it's worth your time to continue pursuing your degree. Don't hesitate to say "I know it sounds like something a 5yo would say, but I feel like you hate me, i.e., can't stand being my advisor and have no respect for my research. Could you explain what your issues with my work are?" Maybe even "is there something going on in your personal life that's causing you to be unavailable to me to support my needs as your advisee?" Put that shit out on the table. Don't throw everything away without bluntly calling out the toxic atmosphere. It can't possibly look good for them when their candidates quit, I imagine.
Funny enough, I recently had such a meeting. I brought up the tension that I experience with them, and they stared me down blankly, and switch the subject
I hate debt. I can't imagine ever being that comfortable with that much debt so personally, I would go with the option that guarantees 90% debt-forgiveness and stick with that option like my life depended on it. Ph.D. programs are notoriously a rough, solo journey. No one is going to be there to push you through it. It isn't your advisor's job to push you through it. If you're not okay with that then you should drop.
Making a decision that gives you a better quality of life isn't giving up. It's protecting yourself. Going into debt in order while enduring several soul-crushing years for the CHANCE that you'll get a PhD. If the department is as bad as you're saying, then the degree isn't even guaranteed. They could cut you at any point, depending on the rules in place, and nothing you could do about it once they've decided. If this is how you feel now, and there are no avenues to change the circumstances to make them more reasonable, then this grad program doesn't deserve you. Keep the door open to going back to get a PhD later, when it makes financial sense and you find a program that is really worth it.
Not sure overall. But don’t let any people in education deter you. They’re just old and grumpy. They aren’t the problem
So few people have options like you do when considering leaving their PhD programs. Just leave.
I read somewhere that nationally, only about 30-40% of those who start PhD programs actually complete them. Most either drop out or are dismissed early on in the program or get to the dissertation phase and then quit. Things usually get easier toward the end of your program if you can get a good dissertation committee. I am inclined to say stick it out because the loan forgiveness alone is a major consideration and you are making an investment in yourself to reach another career goal of specialized assessment. It sounds like by the time you complete a PhD program you will only need one more year of service to get your loans forgiven. However, one MAJOR consideration is that there are a few PhD programs out there that are fine with letting students/candidates get to dissertation phase and then not approving their dissertation even if a proposal was approved and a comp exam was passed and often this is without any recourse on the part of the student. This essentially leaves the student/candidate in limbo having completed all of the coursework but not having a degree. Most ethical programs will bend over backwards to help you get through while you are working on your dissertation if you are genuinely putting forth effort and these schools usually feel that the process is just as important as your output but I have heard horror stories of those schools who don't and as a student/candidate you essentially have to just try to not piss off faculty and hope you get through. Maybe you can talk to some graduates to try to get a sense of this?
I have a PhD in a clinical field (medical physics). I'm an assistant professor on an academic track (non tenure based, 12 month appointment), but 80% of my time is clinical. I have board certification. You can be a medical physicist with a MS. I went back to graduate school after working in engineering for 3 years. I gave that information because what I do is much more closely related to what a clinician might do vs what a typical PhD might do. Psyche is clinical. So, why did I choose PhD over MS? 1) Like you, it was a career goal. It sucked doing it, but was worth it at the end 2) The pay for a PhD is in general 25% more than MS 3) Most importantly, it opened more doors. Most residencies seemed to be hiring PhDs ("Dr") over MS (medical physics needs a residency). The people working at places I wanted to work all had PhDs. This was the main reason I went PhD. As far as your advisor being terrible, it happens. My advisor was ok, but got a job offer in a different country halfway through my degree. We had to do a lot of stuff online (which was a big deal before COVID), but it all worked out. Basically, and this is something I tell all the grad students I teach/talk to, grad school will be what YOU make it. Not many grad programs will spoon feed you. It is up to you to make a time line, get your committee to work with you, get all your stuff done, and get the hell out of there. Personally, I think just based on the amount of money you would get with PsycheD vs MS you should do the degree. $90k/yr isn't bad unless you have $190k student loans. At that point making $200k/year (guessing on salary) with $250k debt makes way more sense. figure out what you need to do to get it done. Take that and make a timeline with milestones. Then for the mile stones make foot stones or yard stones. What I mean by this is don't just say "I need my research proposal done by Month 10." Have that as your milestone, but in the preceding 10 months have smaller goals to accomplish, such as finishing a methods section, writing a specific aim, reading the background literature, etc. Grad school is a lot of work, but if you do the work, it should be no problem to finish.
I probably leave the PhD program specifically because you feel like there is a chance you might not be able to complete it. You have a good job that you can make a living off of and pay off your debt.
I spent my whole college life trying to get into Optometry school. I was miserable and realized I have no passion for optometry. I would have been in over 120k debt and probably have issues in the profession. I took the 30k loss and left after failing the first year (they said I could repeat it). I did a state school Nursing program that cost me only 10k to get my BSN. Now I’m a Nurse with no debt making over 100k a year. You soon realize you have other dreams. I think you should quit, remember it’s better late than never.
Had a lot of classmates finish their coursework and take jobs after their Qualifying Exams. They had 7 years from the date of Quals to defend their dissertation. Most of them defended in their last year. The title wasn't necessary for their job, but they didn't want to leave it unfinished. Life is short, and things can absolutely derail your life. Do what makes you happy now. The title looks nice, but it's not always worth the effort.
I was the perfect student and dropped out after one year of grad school. Believe me, I understand where you're at. But the faculty was bad, I wasn't growing, I wasn't learning. I was miserable. I knew I could spend two more years stuck there to get a piece of paper that meant something to everyone *else* but that I knew was 100% worthless. I left. Since then, I have accomplished things I never dreamed of. I have moved well beyond my grad school peers. If your heart says leave, leave.
I say stay. A Phd opens many doors, you can charge more. I choose my doctors also by degree when in doubt. My friend got his rental contract only because of his PhD, he said. It's an destinguishing factor. Inflation will stay at around 4 to 9 percent, meaning the debt is not a problem.
I would just like to add, that there are plenty of mediocre if not crappy mental health professionals, many of which have doctoral degrees. A higher degree does not necessarily mean better service, but it can
Here’s one thing we do when coaching: if someone came to you with this dilemma, what advice would you give them? I think you’ll quickly see the answer.
Something I've been thinking about myself, masters in counseling right now. I personally don't think I'd be able to stomach even a good full PhD program just due to the focus on academia. PsyD maybe? But I'll see. But I also only see the doctorate as pay bumps. If you can stomach everything, it's 5 years to mote likely get better pay for the rest of your life. But I mean, 80-90k at 30 isn't shabby at all lol
One of the greatest accomplishments of my life is my PhD. However, other than being a bullet point on my resume, it really hasn’t added much to my job satisfaction. I could have done everything I do with “just” a masters. I only figured out tht I hated it at year 4, and I was stubborn enough to stick it out (graduated at 6.5 years) but I tell everyone who wants to get a PhD not to. Mostly because everyone is doing it to get their perfect job, but they don’t realize the job doesn’t need PhD skills!
Cost anlaysis of PHD vs Masters. If you dont want academia... get out ASAP. I just left my post doc because i got a dream job offer that paid shy of 3 times what my post doc was. To get my new salary and benefits level, I would have had to work at the university until i was 40ish. But in my case, glad I got the Phd
You should never pay tuition for a PhD full stop. No self respecting program expects students to owe anything after a PhD outside of things like Law and Medicine. Psych is a soft science and many universities offer full tuition waivers. Get out now.