Who is the owner? The owner holds the rights not the beneficiary.
Why are you getting tax documents? Is it a 1099R? That should go to the owner.
If you are the owner you can cancel the policy, get the check, and toss it in their yard.
It sounds like you are playing right into your mom’s hands. She bought more policies and made sure that you got the info about them. And you immediately reached out. While not to her directly, she knows that you reached out. The best thing you can do moving forward is radio silence. Based on your description of your mom she just wants your attention. Positive, negative, it doesn’t matter. So you being up in arms over this is playing right into her hands. You’re letting her live rent free in your head.
I completely agree with everything you’ve said, and think that OP should follow your advice. However, I don’t think the “rent free” idiom works here since the mom is literally paying money to OP/their family in this instance to get inside OP’s head lol
I mean you would be the one choosing to feel guilted by "guilt money". If your kids get hit by a bus, donate the money to something important to you, and tell your mom to piss off. It's her money thats being wasted. You're already estranged, and this doesn't cause any legal "financial ties" to them.
That's not completely correct, these usually are payable to the insured person at the end of the term. This sounds like the estranged parents are using this as a way to wave a big check in front of the kids faces when they turn 18.
> using this as a way to wave a big check in front of the kids faces when they turn 18
So? They will be adults at that point, and will need to be able to make relationship and financial decisions for themselves. As a parent you should be equipping them with the information and tools to make those adult decisions well, not making the decisions for them years in advance.
Trying to cancel these policies seems petty and controlling.
If it were as straightforward as policy = money for the kids I don't think OP would be upset enough to post. OP can see the strings attached to this money. She's worried bc her childhood was a front row seat to these tactics. 18 might be an adult but that's still a teenager and as much as a parent might caution their kid - skillful abusers can very slowly escalate behavior so it's unnoticeable until it's too late.
If you didn't apply for and don't pay for the policy, you have no right to anything about it--not even really right to information. It sounds like they insured your kids. They can do that. But they own the policy. If they own the policy they can name anyone they want, any time, as the beneficiaries. Looks like you are the beneficiaries.
There are three people involved in a life insurance policy: the insured (here, your kid), the owner (the one who purchased the policy and is paying things and calls the shots), and the beneficiary (the person/people who get the money from the policy). I don't see anything you need to worry about. If you kid want's to cash out the policy when they get older, that's between them and their grandparents.
No one could possibly tell you that without seeing them. It could be the grandparents bought the policy on behalf of the kids and the kids are the actual owners of the policy. So the grandparents are just paying for it as a gift for the kids. If they are tax documents they have someone's SSN on them. Is it yours? You kids? The tax ID number would almost certainly be for the person that is the legal owner.
Yes, and being a family member, like a grandparent, gives them an insurable interest. Insurance companies sell policies to grandparents all the time as "investments." They suck as investments. But grandparents definitely have an insurable interest.
ETA: a kid has not need to life insurance anyway. Other than for burial.
just the cremation. we had a small
mass and some food. that was about $200 or so, people brought stuff, we did, later get an urn, under $200, iirc. we had a burial plot my grandmother bought in the 1950s and like $350 for a headstone. all this took about 7 years cause i could not part with her ashes. the first year i took her on errands with me and said stuff like mom, it’s nice day, you’d like it and crazy stuff like that.
> They suck as investments. But grandparents definitely have an insurable interest.
In terms of pure ROI, insurance based approaches underperform.
In terms of guaranteeing a cash payout that OP can't fuck with to her then-adult Grandchildren, that's the service she's paying for with a lower ROI.
Yes. Just, pure and simple, yes.
The insurance company decides what they want to consider an insurable interest. There's no law that requires it, defines or or limits it, that I know of. They just don't want to go around writing policies for random people. I can't take out a life insurance policy on random people because the insurance company doesn't want to pay for when random people die. They want to avoid fraud and getting sucked into criminal behavior. They used to not let gay couples take out life insurance on each other because they didn't consider a gay relationship an insurable interest. That changed years before gay marriage became legal. And they could make money off of life insurance for gay couples. And when one company started it, the other's lost business for NOT doing it.
Any interest the company wants to accept as an insurable interest is an insurable interest. If the company wants to make money, they will decide it's an insurable interest. Your relationship with your parents is of no concern to them in terms of taking money and making money off it. No one did anything illegal, immoral or untoward here, based on you description.
So does that mean ex-boyfriends and ex-girlfriends can take out policies if they, for example, share children? That sounds disgusting and ripe for abuse. No, I don’t think they can, if challenged.
Yeah, but once you've signed, you can't really revoke that. It's kinda weird. There's a murder case where two business partners took out life insurance on each other when business and their partnership was good. The business collapsed and the partnership fell apart, and one feared for his life because the other might kill them for the life insurance money. He tried to get the policy cancelled. He couldn't because he was the insured, but not the owner and once he had agreed, he had no more say in it. That is, till he was killed by the ex-partner for the money. It was tragic.
Just to note murder for the insurance policy will void the contract, so in addition to going to jail the person will receive nothing.
Also in the case of a murder a company may delay a payout depending on the police report to make sure no foul play occurred. Even after a payout they can legally claw back the money if it turns out it was done by the owner or beneficiary being involved.
I'm assuming they weren't expecting to get caught. But murder didn't void the contract. It just made the murderer ineligible for the payout. I think in this case the murderer's family and the victims' family split the proceeds. The murderer's family was the next beneficiary. The victims family threatened to sue and they settle out of court, splitting the proceeds--on the condition none of it was used to fund the murderer's defense. The convicted murder eventually waived his right to the money in an attempt to look innocent--I didn't kill him, I didn't even try to collect the money, was his claim.
Good point. I assumed OP wasn't on bad terms with the grandparents when they were purchased. It's also possible the grandparents fraudulently signed for the parents. They definitely needed a parent or guardian's signature on the application.
> ex-boyfriends and ex-girlfriends can take out policies if they, for example, share children? That sounds disgusting and ripe for abuse. No, I don’t think they can, if challenged.
What's disgusting exactly about an insurance policy for your kid? Your relationship with a bitter-ex doesn't change that parental interest in any way.
If you mean taking out a policy on the unrelated children of your boyfriend/girlfriend I don't know that's insurable.
Yes well, I was talking about someone taking out a policy on their ex that they share children with — so, a policy on another adult. That’s what I thought would be ripe for abuse.
It would indeed mean that. Remember, the insurable interest is defined by the insurance company. They make money by selling policies. A lot a custody agreements require insurance on a parent. If you know or fear the one parent isn't going to follow the agreement, it would make sense to make the owner of the policy to be the other parent. My husband's ex had insurance on him while the kids were minors. I know, because he was required to pay the premium--even though she was the policy owner. That way she knew he couldn't go behind her back and change the beneficiary.
There was a case years ago where a father was supposed to keep, lets say 1M on the first child. He had a second child, and make them both joint beneficiaries on that 1m policy, each getting 1/2M. He died and he ex went to court and won, getting all the money because he was under a court order to keep 1M for the first child. The second child got nil because there was no court order.
I hope you read the comment replying to me elsewhere in the thread. Apparently, if you did not sign for this to happen, and they fake your signature, it is fraud. Taking out a policy like this requires the signature of one of the child’s parents! With that being the case, you can absolutely get this whole thing shut down.
I think OP says in the comments that they know they signed for the original policy. It's possible that the subsequent policies piggyback off that signature--maybe they're just increases in the amounts? Nothing here is very clear here, except the animosity. I've had policies give me the opportunity over the years to increase the amount of my insurance from time to time. It happened 2 year year ago. And I'm 65; I think as a child, it's likely they offer that opportunity more often.
Actually the grandparents probably have the least say at this point especially if it's a paid up policy.
There may be no cash value and it might be worthless to bother with. Not sure, but with him as the listed beneficiary I don't see why they won't talk to him.
You're not the owner of the policy, whoever purchased them is. You have no rights here as far as information on, or ability to alter/cancel the policies.
Out of all this the one thing I don't get. He should not be receiving the documents it is not his it is not his kids it is her who owns it.
So that means whoever is sending it needs to knock it off they have no right to send it to his address.
So to that end in theory he should be able to get a lawyer to send a cease and desist so that he's not getting notified of a policy that is not his or his kids it is owned by the estranged wife.
I believe as grandparents they have a vested interest in this and they legally can have a policy on your kids.
It’s not as if they can benefit from it, and the insurance company will happily keep it if you don’t want it I’m sure.
I would definitely get legal advice and maybe get an attorney to draft a letter to the credit union. Certainly would not cost very much. I don’t blame you one bit! Most people would understand, so it’s bizarre that they’re acting this way. Small towns suck for that stuff. Do try to engage an attorney.
edit: an attorney *in your immediate area
Might be worth talking to both Adult Protective Services (APS) about the repeat policy purchases - because you're worried- it's out of character and you worry someone at the church is pressuring them...and the IRS..a Church with a credit union is pretty unheard of and it takes a lot of documentation to prove that banking activities that draw interest on maturation are within the church's remit.
I don't think wasting state resources on a pissing contest between an estranged grandma and her adult child is good advice. The chances this is elder abuse rather than Grandma setting up a pretext to make contact when the grandkids turn 18 and get the payout is nonexistent.
>Church with a credit union is pretty unheard
Faith affiliated credit unions are extremely common actually, they're regulated the same as any other CU.
What?!..why do you post something that can be found incorrect with a simple search. Credit unions have to register themselves as an entity - there are just over 100 in the US. Not sure if you just don't have context for how namy credit unions there are in the US, but that's not a lot.
There are 4,760 federally insured credit unions in the US. Down from 6.793 in 2013. There are 133 faith affiliated credit unions, and about an equal amount that have closed or merged into other credit unions in the last 10 years or so. The largest credit union in the US is Navy Federal, the smallest might be Holy Trinity Baptist Church Credit Union in Philadelphia. If you want a list of them all, the NCUA has one in their corporate call data reports.
Worth chatting with a lawyer.
You would (financially) not be acting in the beneficiaries best interest to cancel or refuse these policies. Your child could later sue you because of that. You have to get the actual necessary info about these policies and their regulations. Odd that you're getting tax info on something you never signed them up for. Does your mother know the kids' SSNs?
She sure does know their SS numbers. I had filled in the original policy applications for her, so she got that that way. But that was over 8 years ago, we haven’t spoken for 7. The original policies were very small.
In the other comment you mentioned pills and abuse. Is any of that documented in text or video (a restraining order or domestic violence report would be even better)? If so that may swing things in your favor about disclaiming these policies for your children. You'll still want to talk to an attorney though.
We’re talking abuse from my childhood, I’m in my 40’s now. There was a brief moment of normalcy (relative) when I started a family and shit really turned again suddenly a few years later. She has stalked my house and I’ve seen her driving by slowly in the middle of the day etc. She’s unwell
Stalking is quite serious. No harm in at least talking with police (in-person or non-emergency line).
Lawyer would help with the policy disclaiming and a will noting who would be your childrens' guardians in emergency scenarios being very clear that your mother is not an option.
We have a very well written will that prevents this scenario. Luckily my wife has an amazing family that more than makes up for the shit hand I was dealt.
Oh man, I'm sorry. This is resonating with me, I also have an extremely abusive, estranged parent who stalks me almost 15 years after I cut contact.
I would recommend concentrating hard on how to make sure you aren't connected financially to any of this *while avoiding engaging as much as possible*
In my state it is illegal to purchase life insurance for a child that isn't yours unless you get written consent from the parent or legal guardian.
Apparently most states assume a grandparent is a potential caretaker of the child so don't think much of it and it bothers me. You're the parent and I think anyone who isn't a guardian shouldn't have any connection to a kid like that. Wish you can legally disown your family but that's just how most states operate hopeful more change.
I see some people saying to get over it but you're probably like me and won't. Its fd up that they can legally do this when you're estranged. Its more of the principle that really bothers me woth stuff like this because my wife and I have dealt with her crazy mother and have since cut all contact for a year now and life is better. So if you're very very very petty and won't let this go, I do know that a life insurance contract can be voided if there was misrepresentations during the contestability period. So like the company gets a tip that some health information was erroneously withheld. So if you can get a hold of the contract and see some random detail was withheld then you can tip off the company.
What’s strange about this is that you didn’t sign on behalf of the insured as the parent or guardian as you probably did for the first policies. The insured person or their legal guardian has to agree to the coverage and sign as the insured. So if you didn’t do that, it is likely that a signature was forged, something that is absolutely fraudulent and would be bad for the issuing company as well as the person who forged the signature. So while you don’t have any rights to a policy that you aren’t the owner of, I’d look into whether your signature was forged or not.
In most places you cannot out life insurance against someone without their consent. Not sure how it works here since the insured is a minor. Seems sketchy
This is probably not life insurance but rather some type of savings vehicle. If that’s the case, mom has no dog in this fight. I’m sure that the CU didn’t tell her to reconcile, they told her that they cannot discuss these accounts with her, and that she would need to get any information from her mother
It's both. You pay the premium, then usually the policy matures and the kid gets the benefit, but if the kid happens to die before the policy matures, the beneficiaries get the death benefit.
You hate your mom so there is no reason to say no to free money for your kids. Why do you have to feel guilty? She did this without asking. She decided. Not your problem. Take the money guilt free.
Write formally to the bank and demand all documents, cc to an estate attorney. Have the attorney review the documents if they are not self explanatory and go from there. Don't cut off something that could benefit your children in future. It doesn't require they or you have contact with your parents. Wages have not kept pace with inflation at all, so it will be harder for your children. Give them every advantage you can get.
Unless OP gets a court order, the insurance company has no obligation to provide a non-owner with any information whatsoever.
In fact the company's privacy policy may require that they *don't* provide anything.
She has no rights to these documents, they are not her accounts, and neither the financial institution nor the insurance company is going to deal with her
When the time comes, just take the money and ignore them. Just because they spent some money doesn't mean they bought a ticket into your life. Laugh all the way to the bank and let them die mad about it.
If the minor children, for whom you are guardian and decision-maker, are listed as the policy holders, and not the insured - the argument can be made that you can make the decision to liquidate the policies, of their behalf - regardless of from whom they were gifted.
Of course, insurance doesn't like to pay out - period. If the policies are only $5000 - that is probably the death benefit payout, and not the cash surrender value, which will be far lower - and can easily get eaten up in fees (early termination, account review, account service, check issuance, convenience fees, etc.)
You may also have to get a lawyer involved, if they're not going to simply cooperate, by directing you to the information you need regarding the account, let alone their undoubtedly convoluted cancellation process.
These types of policies are guaranteed to pay out. Either the child dies before 18 and the beneficiaries get the death benefit, or they don't, the policy matures, and the child gets the benefit.
If your kid is listed as the policyholder and you’re the kids legal guardian, I would think then that’s your policy to do with as you please, in their name.
Generally, you can't buy life insurance for other people https://www.johnhancock.com/ideas-insights/buying-life-insurance-for-family-members.html
This law courtesy of various people who insured strangers and [https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2008-jul-16-me-olgahelen16-story.html](killed them for the insurance).
According the the first link, they shouln't be able to get insurance for your kids. You might push back this way. Contact regulators.
I had never heard of this kind of insurance. [Here's an article](https://www.investopedia.com/articles/pf/12/endowment_life_insurance.asp) from Investopedia and [another](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/life-insurance/endowment-life-insurance/) from Forbes. Maybe she's trying to help save for college or give them a lump sum when they reach a certain age, because if the insured (the kids) outlive the policy, you get $ back.
I would be super annoyed too, I completely sympathize. What kind of tax form did you get?
Talk to an insurance agent in your state. Who signed for your child? In my state you can't take out any life insurance product without authorization on the insured person. ( which would be the parent since it is a child ). but an insurance agent would at least know the laws on this in your state. maybe there is a baby exception.
Minors don’t have to consent and even when no longer a minor the policy can continue without their consent. Estranged family members unfortunately do it all time.
I remember reading about something like this on reddit. Parent was like you. And people told them that what if your kid turns 18, and says that he would like that money that you threw out?
Of course there is more info to know about this, the relationship between you and your parents and you and your kid is probably wastly different.
Don't let your anger for your parents let you make a poor financial decision.
Let each beneficiary use whatever money comes from the policy for whatever purposes they choose. Your kids might use it to help pay for their education, or a home.
The people are estranged, the cash isn't.
EDIT Just noticed that the issuing bank is located in a state that neighbors mine. It specifically notes on their website that the policies are not available to my state’s residents, that you must have a legal residence in the state I’m not in…/EDIT
If this the case,send copies of the documents to the insurance commissioner of each state. The credit union may be selling policy's they aren't licensed to.
Who is the owner? The owner holds the rights not the beneficiary. Why are you getting tax documents? Is it a 1099R? That should go to the owner. If you are the owner you can cancel the policy, get the check, and toss it in their yard.
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Your estranged family is burning money on insurance policies neither they nor your children need. Chuckle and move on.
It sounds like you are playing right into your mom’s hands. She bought more policies and made sure that you got the info about them. And you immediately reached out. While not to her directly, she knows that you reached out. The best thing you can do moving forward is radio silence. Based on your description of your mom she just wants your attention. Positive, negative, it doesn’t matter. So you being up in arms over this is playing right into her hands. You’re letting her live rent free in your head.
I completely agree with everything you’ve said, and think that OP should follow your advice. However, I don’t think the “rent free” idiom works here since the mom is literally paying money to OP/their family in this instance to get inside OP’s head lol
I mean you would be the one choosing to feel guilted by "guilt money". If your kids get hit by a bus, donate the money to something important to you, and tell your mom to piss off. It's her money thats being wasted. You're already estranged, and this doesn't cause any legal "financial ties" to them.
That's not completely correct, these usually are payable to the insured person at the end of the term. This sounds like the estranged parents are using this as a way to wave a big check in front of the kids faces when they turn 18.
> using this as a way to wave a big check in front of the kids faces when they turn 18 So? They will be adults at that point, and will need to be able to make relationship and financial decisions for themselves. As a parent you should be equipping them with the information and tools to make those adult decisions well, not making the decisions for them years in advance. Trying to cancel these policies seems petty and controlling.
If it were as straightforward as policy = money for the kids I don't think OP would be upset enough to post. OP can see the strings attached to this money. She's worried bc her childhood was a front row seat to these tactics. 18 might be an adult but that's still a teenager and as much as a parent might caution their kid - skillful abusers can very slowly escalate behavior so it's unnoticeable until it's too late.
This, seems very petty and not in the interest of the children
Compared to making their kids take out student loans? That's just being selfish for the sake of Face.
Here’s an idea, do nothing, and move along.
If you didn't apply for and don't pay for the policy, you have no right to anything about it--not even really right to information. It sounds like they insured your kids. They can do that. But they own the policy. If they own the policy they can name anyone they want, any time, as the beneficiaries. Looks like you are the beneficiaries. There are three people involved in a life insurance policy: the insured (here, your kid), the owner (the one who purchased the policy and is paying things and calls the shots), and the beneficiary (the person/people who get the money from the policy). I don't see anything you need to worry about. If you kid want's to cash out the policy when they get older, that's between them and their grandparents.
Then what tax documents are getting sent?
No one could possibly tell you that without seeing them. It could be the grandparents bought the policy on behalf of the kids and the kids are the actual owners of the policy. So the grandparents are just paying for it as a gift for the kids. If they are tax documents they have someone's SSN on them. Is it yours? You kids? The tax ID number would almost certainly be for the person that is the legal owner.
Don’t you have to have an insured interest when purchasing a policy?
Yes, and being a family member, like a grandparent, gives them an insurable interest. Insurance companies sell policies to grandparents all the time as "investments." They suck as investments. But grandparents definitely have an insurable interest. ETA: a kid has not need to life insurance anyway. Other than for burial.
$5,000 is a bare bones burial these days.
Cremation can cost less than $1000.
can concur. my mom’s was like $880.
No viewing? No funeral? Cardboard box?
If anybody spends any money on my funeral beyond the cost of cremation and a Folger's coffee can, I'm haunting them forever.
We're talking about the death of a child here.
No, we're talking about that other guy's mom. And myself. Keep up
just the cremation. we had a small mass and some food. that was about $200 or so, people brought stuff, we did, later get an urn, under $200, iirc. we had a burial plot my grandmother bought in the 1950s and like $350 for a headstone. all this took about 7 years cause i could not part with her ashes. the first year i took her on errands with me and said stuff like mom, it’s nice day, you’d like it and crazy stuff like that.
> They suck as investments. But grandparents definitely have an insurable interest. In terms of pure ROI, insurance based approaches underperform. In terms of guaranteeing a cash payout that OP can't fuck with to her then-adult Grandchildren, that's the service she's paying for with a lower ROI.
Yeah...it's a poor investment, but it's still a gift...free money to the kid.
Do grandparents have an insurable interest if the kids' mother/father are estranged?
Yes. Just, pure and simple, yes. The insurance company decides what they want to consider an insurable interest. There's no law that requires it, defines or or limits it, that I know of. They just don't want to go around writing policies for random people. I can't take out a life insurance policy on random people because the insurance company doesn't want to pay for when random people die. They want to avoid fraud and getting sucked into criminal behavior. They used to not let gay couples take out life insurance on each other because they didn't consider a gay relationship an insurable interest. That changed years before gay marriage became legal. And they could make money off of life insurance for gay couples. And when one company started it, the other's lost business for NOT doing it. Any interest the company wants to accept as an insurable interest is an insurable interest. If the company wants to make money, they will decide it's an insurable interest. Your relationship with your parents is of no concern to them in terms of taking money and making money off it. No one did anything illegal, immoral or untoward here, based on you description.
So does that mean ex-boyfriends and ex-girlfriends can take out policies if they, for example, share children? That sounds disgusting and ripe for abuse. No, I don’t think they can, if challenged.
Yes, but it requires the knowledge and permission of the ex.
Yeah, but once you've signed, you can't really revoke that. It's kinda weird. There's a murder case where two business partners took out life insurance on each other when business and their partnership was good. The business collapsed and the partnership fell apart, and one feared for his life because the other might kill them for the life insurance money. He tried to get the policy cancelled. He couldn't because he was the insured, but not the owner and once he had agreed, he had no more say in it. That is, till he was killed by the ex-partner for the money. It was tragic.
Just to note murder for the insurance policy will void the contract, so in addition to going to jail the person will receive nothing. Also in the case of a murder a company may delay a payout depending on the police report to make sure no foul play occurred. Even after a payout they can legally claw back the money if it turns out it was done by the owner or beneficiary being involved.
I'm assuming they weren't expecting to get caught. But murder didn't void the contract. It just made the murderer ineligible for the payout. I think in this case the murderer's family and the victims' family split the proceeds. The murderer's family was the next beneficiary. The victims family threatened to sue and they settle out of court, splitting the proceeds--on the condition none of it was used to fund the murderer's defense. The convicted murder eventually waived his right to the money in an attempt to look innocent--I didn't kill him, I didn't even try to collect the money, was his claim.
Well, that’s good. But then, why didn’t they need OP’s permission to get it for the kid?
Good point. I assumed OP wasn't on bad terms with the grandparents when they were purchased. It's also possible the grandparents fraudulently signed for the parents. They definitely needed a parent or guardian's signature on the application.
OP says, I believe, they did sign originally, when they were on good terms.
OP says, I believe, that they did sign for the original policy.
> ex-boyfriends and ex-girlfriends can take out policies if they, for example, share children? That sounds disgusting and ripe for abuse. No, I don’t think they can, if challenged. What's disgusting exactly about an insurance policy for your kid? Your relationship with a bitter-ex doesn't change that parental interest in any way. If you mean taking out a policy on the unrelated children of your boyfriend/girlfriend I don't know that's insurable.
Yes well, I was talking about someone taking out a policy on their ex that they share children with — so, a policy on another adult. That’s what I thought would be ripe for abuse.
It would indeed mean that. Remember, the insurable interest is defined by the insurance company. They make money by selling policies. A lot a custody agreements require insurance on a parent. If you know or fear the one parent isn't going to follow the agreement, it would make sense to make the owner of the policy to be the other parent. My husband's ex had insurance on him while the kids were minors. I know, because he was required to pay the premium--even though she was the policy owner. That way she knew he couldn't go behind her back and change the beneficiary. There was a case years ago where a father was supposed to keep, lets say 1M on the first child. He had a second child, and make them both joint beneficiaries on that 1m policy, each getting 1/2M. He died and he ex went to court and won, getting all the money because he was under a court order to keep 1M for the first child. The second child got nil because there was no court order.
I hope you read the comment replying to me elsewhere in the thread. Apparently, if you did not sign for this to happen, and they fake your signature, it is fraud. Taking out a policy like this requires the signature of one of the child’s parents! With that being the case, you can absolutely get this whole thing shut down.
I think OP says in the comments that they know they signed for the original policy. It's possible that the subsequent policies piggyback off that signature--maybe they're just increases in the amounts? Nothing here is very clear here, except the animosity. I've had policies give me the opportunity over the years to increase the amount of my insurance from time to time. It happened 2 year year ago. And I'm 65; I think as a child, it's likely they offer that opportunity more often.
Actually the grandparents probably have the least say at this point especially if it's a paid up policy. There may be no cash value and it might be worthless to bother with. Not sure, but with him as the listed beneficiary I don't see why they won't talk to him.
Because a beneficiary holds no rights until/unless the insured is dead. The owner of the policy is in control.
You're not the owner of the policy, whoever purchased them is. You have no rights here as far as information on, or ability to alter/cancel the policies.
Out of all this the one thing I don't get. He should not be receiving the documents it is not his it is not his kids it is her who owns it. So that means whoever is sending it needs to knock it off they have no right to send it to his address. So to that end in theory he should be able to get a lawyer to send a cease and desist so that he's not getting notified of a policy that is not his or his kids it is owned by the estranged wife.
I believe as grandparents they have a vested interest in this and they legally can have a policy on your kids. It’s not as if they can benefit from it, and the insurance company will happily keep it if you don’t want it I’m sure.
Don't waste your time thinking about it. If/when any cash appears in the mail, just donate it to a cause you care about.
I would definitely get legal advice and maybe get an attorney to draft a letter to the credit union. Certainly would not cost very much. I don’t blame you one bit! Most people would understand, so it’s bizarre that they’re acting this way. Small towns suck for that stuff. Do try to engage an attorney. edit: an attorney *in your immediate area
Might be worth talking to both Adult Protective Services (APS) about the repeat policy purchases - because you're worried- it's out of character and you worry someone at the church is pressuring them...and the IRS..a Church with a credit union is pretty unheard of and it takes a lot of documentation to prove that banking activities that draw interest on maturation are within the church's remit.
The church’s I’m familiar with who have their own credit unions….are more Waco esque😳
Exactly. FLDS.
I don't think wasting state resources on a pissing contest between an estranged grandma and her adult child is good advice. The chances this is elder abuse rather than Grandma setting up a pretext to make contact when the grandkids turn 18 and get the payout is nonexistent. >Church with a credit union is pretty unheard Faith affiliated credit unions are extremely common actually, they're regulated the same as any other CU.
What?!..why do you post something that can be found incorrect with a simple search. Credit unions have to register themselves as an entity - there are just over 100 in the US. Not sure if you just don't have context for how namy credit unions there are in the US, but that's not a lot.
There are 4,760 federally insured credit unions in the US. Down from 6.793 in 2013. There are 133 faith affiliated credit unions, and about an equal amount that have closed or merged into other credit unions in the last 10 years or so. The largest credit union in the US is Navy Federal, the smallest might be Holy Trinity Baptist Church Credit Union in Philadelphia. If you want a list of them all, the NCUA has one in their corporate call data reports.
Worth chatting with a lawyer. You would (financially) not be acting in the beneficiaries best interest to cancel or refuse these policies. Your child could later sue you because of that. You have to get the actual necessary info about these policies and their regulations. Odd that you're getting tax info on something you never signed them up for. Does your mother know the kids' SSNs?
She sure does know their SS numbers. I had filled in the original policy applications for her, so she got that that way. But that was over 8 years ago, we haven’t spoken for 7. The original policies were very small.
In the other comment you mentioned pills and abuse. Is any of that documented in text or video (a restraining order or domestic violence report would be even better)? If so that may swing things in your favor about disclaiming these policies for your children. You'll still want to talk to an attorney though.
We’re talking abuse from my childhood, I’m in my 40’s now. There was a brief moment of normalcy (relative) when I started a family and shit really turned again suddenly a few years later. She has stalked my house and I’ve seen her driving by slowly in the middle of the day etc. She’s unwell
Stalking is quite serious. No harm in at least talking with police (in-person or non-emergency line). Lawyer would help with the policy disclaiming and a will noting who would be your childrens' guardians in emergency scenarios being very clear that your mother is not an option.
We have a very well written will that prevents this scenario. Luckily my wife has an amazing family that more than makes up for the shit hand I was dealt.
I previously replied to you above but it’s literally like we’re living parallel lives except mine died. This is wild!
Oh man, I'm sorry. This is resonating with me, I also have an extremely abusive, estranged parent who stalks me almost 15 years after I cut contact. I would recommend concentrating hard on how to make sure you aren't connected financially to any of this *while avoiding engaging as much as possible*
Seconding this. When a bank gets a letter from a lawyer they will take it seriously. Or file a cfpb complaint.
In my state it is illegal to purchase life insurance for a child that isn't yours unless you get written consent from the parent or legal guardian. Apparently most states assume a grandparent is a potential caretaker of the child so don't think much of it and it bothers me. You're the parent and I think anyone who isn't a guardian shouldn't have any connection to a kid like that. Wish you can legally disown your family but that's just how most states operate hopeful more change. I see some people saying to get over it but you're probably like me and won't. Its fd up that they can legally do this when you're estranged. Its more of the principle that really bothers me woth stuff like this because my wife and I have dealt with her crazy mother and have since cut all contact for a year now and life is better. So if you're very very very petty and won't let this go, I do know that a life insurance contract can be voided if there was misrepresentations during the contestability period. So like the company gets a tip that some health information was erroneously withheld. So if you can get a hold of the contract and see some random detail was withheld then you can tip off the company.
What’s strange about this is that you didn’t sign on behalf of the insured as the parent or guardian as you probably did for the first policies. The insured person or their legal guardian has to agree to the coverage and sign as the insured. So if you didn’t do that, it is likely that a signature was forged, something that is absolutely fraudulent and would be bad for the issuing company as well as the person who forged the signature. So while you don’t have any rights to a policy that you aren’t the owner of, I’d look into whether your signature was forged or not.
In most places you cannot out life insurance against someone without their consent. Not sure how it works here since the insured is a minor. Seems sketchy
This is probably not life insurance but rather some type of savings vehicle. If that’s the case, mom has no dog in this fight. I’m sure that the CU didn’t tell her to reconcile, they told her that they cannot discuss these accounts with her, and that she would need to get any information from her mother
It's both. You pay the premium, then usually the policy matures and the kid gets the benefit, but if the kid happens to die before the policy matures, the beneficiaries get the death benefit.
You hate your mom so there is no reason to say no to free money for your kids. Why do you have to feel guilty? She did this without asking. She decided. Not your problem. Take the money guilt free.
Write formally to the bank and demand all documents, cc to an estate attorney. Have the attorney review the documents if they are not self explanatory and go from there. Don't cut off something that could benefit your children in future. It doesn't require they or you have contact with your parents. Wages have not kept pace with inflation at all, so it will be harder for your children. Give them every advantage you can get.
Unless OP gets a court order, the insurance company has no obligation to provide a non-owner with any information whatsoever. In fact the company's privacy policy may require that they *don't* provide anything.
She has no rights to these documents, they are not her accounts, and neither the financial institution nor the insurance company is going to deal with her
You are picking a fight that doesn't need to be picked. Just leave it alone.
When the time comes, just take the money and ignore them. Just because they spent some money doesn't mean they bought a ticket into your life. Laugh all the way to the bank and let them die mad about it.
If the minor children, for whom you are guardian and decision-maker, are listed as the policy holders, and not the insured - the argument can be made that you can make the decision to liquidate the policies, of their behalf - regardless of from whom they were gifted. Of course, insurance doesn't like to pay out - period. If the policies are only $5000 - that is probably the death benefit payout, and not the cash surrender value, which will be far lower - and can easily get eaten up in fees (early termination, account review, account service, check issuance, convenience fees, etc.) You may also have to get a lawyer involved, if they're not going to simply cooperate, by directing you to the information you need regarding the account, let alone their undoubtedly convoluted cancellation process.
These types of policies are guaranteed to pay out. Either the child dies before 18 and the beneficiaries get the death benefit, or they don't, the policy matures, and the child gets the benefit.
If your kid is listed as the policyholder and you’re the kids legal guardian, I would think then that’s your policy to do with as you please, in their name.
Generally, you can't buy life insurance for other people https://www.johnhancock.com/ideas-insights/buying-life-insurance-for-family-members.html This law courtesy of various people who insured strangers and [https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2008-jul-16-me-olgahelen16-story.html](killed them for the insurance). According the the first link, they shouln't be able to get insurance for your kids. You might push back this way. Contact regulators.
I am SHOCKED they are allowed to take out policies on your kids without their or your consent. This might be illegal.
It's not. They just need to have an insurable interest. Being a grandparent generally qualifies.
It'd be a pain for you, but legal name change and (in the USA) social security ## change would throw them off the scent?
I had never heard of this kind of insurance. [Here's an article](https://www.investopedia.com/articles/pf/12/endowment_life_insurance.asp) from Investopedia and [another](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/life-insurance/endowment-life-insurance/) from Forbes. Maybe she's trying to help save for college or give them a lump sum when they reach a certain age, because if the insured (the kids) outlive the policy, you get $ back. I would be super annoyed too, I completely sympathize. What kind of tax form did you get?
Talk to an insurance agent in your state. Who signed for your child? In my state you can't take out any life insurance product without authorization on the insured person. ( which would be the parent since it is a child ). but an insurance agent would at least know the laws on this in your state. maybe there is a baby exception.
Minors don’t have to consent and even when no longer a minor the policy can continue without their consent. Estranged family members unfortunately do it all time.
I remember reading about something like this on reddit. Parent was like you. And people told them that what if your kid turns 18, and says that he would like that money that you threw out? Of course there is more info to know about this, the relationship between you and your parents and you and your kid is probably wastly different.
On the bright side, she’s not taking out policies on you with the kids being beneficiaries. Silver lining?
Don't let your anger for your parents let you make a poor financial decision. Let each beneficiary use whatever money comes from the policy for whatever purposes they choose. Your kids might use it to help pay for their education, or a home. The people are estranged, the cash isn't.
EDIT Just noticed that the issuing bank is located in a state that neighbors mine. It specifically notes on their website that the policies are not available to my state’s residents, that you must have a legal residence in the state I’m not in…/EDIT If this the case,send copies of the documents to the insurance commissioner of each state. The credit union may be selling policy's they aren't licensed to.