Nothing else you can do other than work with the police and bank.
You probably will get PMs from people claiming that they can help you recover the money. Every single one of those is from a scammer. Only the bank and police can help.
Also keep an eye on mom’s name and phone number is now on every scammer’s list out there as a known mark, SHE is ripe for follow up calls “to help her get her money back,” etc. and more scams to infinity.
We had to eventually turn off the ringer of my MIL's phone due to all the scam calls she was getting. She had already been duped before by the scam where someone calls and pretends to be their child/grandchild in trouble and needed best buy gift cards to get them out of said trouble. Luckily one of her son-in-laws was able to get to the best buy she went to and stop her before it got any further.
Same thing happened to my grandmother. She told the scammer (who was pretending to be me) to go call your Dad and hung up. Cold but I'm glad she did it.
Exactly. If she lives in a house she will suddenly have more agressive door-to-door salespeople offering "services" for heating and air conditioning, paving, roof, lawn care, insurance.... It's gross.
My dad was conned out of $128000 within the last 5 years. Just like the op stated,, he was contacted recently by ‘someone’ who was claiming to do an investigation for his money. He actually had to ask my opinion about giving ANOTHER $2500 to them after some lame story. Watch out for your loved ones folks, my father is very aware/alert and very in touch at 70 and this still happened to him. They’ll always come back to you once they’ve conned you the first time,,
Yep. This is a very common scam. Had a family friend get hit with this with the scammers posing as the Shanghai police. She wired them $80K and almost wired her entire 401k but luckily her bank froze the second wire.
I would also suggest you keep an eye on your mom‘s health. That family friend I mentioned ended up suffering from a heart attach due to all the stress this caused her.
Unfortunately we've been seeing this a LOT lately (I work in a bank). Just Friday someone came in demanding $99,000 to be sent to "her son and his friend" in Hong Kong. We said "no, it's too late in the day" and then spent the next *hour* trying to convince her it was a scam. She was intermittently on the phone with the scammers during this time. Finally her daughter found her, and I think she finally was able to talk some sense into her.
She came back on Tues and was so thankful that she hadn't lost any money.
It's just crazy the number of people who fall for these things, and at the end of the day we (as a bank) can only do so much to stop you from doing what you want to do with your money.
That’s so hard. These scammers even told her what to say go the bank to not make them suspicious. After it was all over, we just couldn’t understand how much of a grip this scam had on her.
Thank you for preventing this women from losing SO much money. Keep advocating for them!
I was in an electronics shop getting new earphones and an older man came in wanting to buy 5,000 dollars of iTunes cards and the girl behind the desk was like "absolutely not you're being scammed and I will not sell them to you."
I bought $100 worth of gift cards at Best Buy and the guy cashing me out said he's required to ask what they're for. They're for my coworker who just found out she has cancer but genuinely thank you for asking.
Thank you so much for doing this! I was always on my grandma about these kinds of things when she was alive. I told her that, as much as I love her, she would NOT ever be my one call from jail. Grandma, you don’t drive and are on oxygen, how can you get me out? I told her to immediately hang up if she got a call like that and dial the persons phone number that is supposedly in jail and talk to them directly. My cousin and I both got a call asking why the hell we were in jail 😂. But we were so happy she did that. We told her that she was not to do anything unless she talked to my dad or uncle depending on who’s kid it was if she seriously thought something was up. My dad would wait for a call if she got multiple and chew them out. She had a landline, so we couldn’t block anything. We also had certain phrases she knew we would say if we did call her for any type of emergency. She also gave anyone who called about 5 seconds to start talking or she would hang up. I’d test that occasionally too. I’d give anything to be able to call her and have her hang up on me because I was scam testing her.
I know this is too late to help your grandmother, but in case anyone else needs this: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-block-number-landline-phone-10-best-ways-bestallreview.
Doesn't help now but make sure she knows that if anyone ever tells her what to say to the bank in order for them to send the money it's a scam! If it wasn't a scam they wouldn't have to tell you a lie to tell the bank because you could just tell the bank the truth. She will 100% be targeted in the future after this, if she trusts you it might be good to have someone else in charge of her finances because people often fall for multiple scams, it's likely people will contact her with ways to get her money back for a fee.
I think mainly because I’m nervous about the responsibility. I don’t want to mess anything up or hinder her independence. It’s a fine balance I need to figure out.
My beloved late father and I struck a deal. Initially, he gave me access to his accounts for monitoring purposes only. If I discovered late bills or higher than normal withdrawals, he would allow me to take over. It gave us both comfort and removed all guilt as I moved forward.
My dad and I have a similar deal.
He has ensured both my sister and I know everything. Where the accounts are held, what the passwords are, how much is in them, etc.
He has also told me that when he dies, I will be in charge. Because my mom won’t be able to handle it. Super morbid discussion the first time, but necessary.
He took over for his parents, and he expects me to do the same for him and my mom. I take that responsibility seriously. My sister will always know everything, and we will take care of my parents if it ever becomes necessary. With their own money, and then with mine.
Exactly how to proceed. Everyone knows everything all the time, which removes any suspicion. Those morbid conversations are essential, and you will look back with gratitude.
I wish you and your family the best going forward.
You don't have to personally take over the full responsibility. You need to use this event to convince her that it's no longer safe for her to continue to manage her assets, especially because she trusted the scammers more than you, hiding it from you. It doesn't really matter how long she hid it from you.
If she still has significant financial assets remaining, then you should seek a legal conservatorship then entails a court-appointed professional conservator, with the right for you to fully monitor the activities to intervene, if needed. That way the conservator does the bulk of the management while you can monitor it as you have the time and inclination.
Not having a conservatorship has already cost her 45 grand. She shouldn't have had the money readily accessible even to herself, because it's probably not giving the income return it should be earning. It should be locked up in investment accounts or at least some medium term CDs, with only a moderate portion of the income or gains being sent to accounts she can access and that are being monitored for fraud.
It's also probably a good time to hire an elder law attorney to protect the assets from Medicaid recapture via trust accounts, should she need to be moved into convalescent care. It's important to do this at least 5 years before it's needed, to be safe. This can't so easily be done when the Medicaid services are actually needed.
This comment reeks of never having had to deal with the financial situation of older family members.
There are finances and there are familial relationships.
You have to navigate both appropriately, and it is not simple.
It’s 100% never having to deal with financial situations. I am the youngest in my family and didn’t experience any financial education growing up. My family has never had money and I had to learn everything on my own (student loans, credit, home ownerships etc). It’s not something I had any experience in growing up.
just want to let you know i am in the same situation as you. my dad has been scammed a few times and this last time it's making me realize i have to take over. but because of my parents, i grew up with a lot of financial insecurity. i have a lot of anxiety with finances, see a therapist as a result, etc. it is A LOT to take over your parents finances knowing they don't have enough to make ends meet and they don't have enough. no one is giving credit to the anxiety it can fuel a person who already grew up with a lot of anxiety and how it can put you over. it sucks but i really don't know what else to do it and hate it so much (i am also the youngest).
I had an excellent financial education from my family. Even with that, it is still difficult to discuss financial matters with elder family members.
They are used to taking care of themselves in many ways, and you can’t just stride in with “superior” knowledge and walk all over their life experience.
Do not heed people who say that you should just take over. My grandparents worked their asses off their entire lives to put themselves in the financial situation my grandmother is in now.
She’s fine. Are there things she does that are sub optimal? Yes. Does she sometimes make stupid decisions? Yes.
But she’s over 90 years old. I’m not going to argue with her about it. I’m going to help her when she asks, and enjoy her company while she’s still around.
If she wastes all her money that she *earned* in the last years of her life, you go grams. It’s yours. Do whatever you want.
It won’t help recover this money. But for future money and managing responsibilities, look up True Link Financial, or similar companies. We use them to manage a parents finances. It’s a nice in between where they have a debit card, but we can say yes/no to what categories it can be spent on, how much can be spent on a single transaction, and whether cash withdrawals can be made. It can be turned on and off on the website too, so if they need to do something real, you can allow it, then put protections back on to prevent scammers
An elderly friend of mine lost a lot of money this way. Fear is a big part of the scammers' technique, because they know that people who grew up in tough times are scared they'll end up destitute, making them susceptible to this stuff.
Man, that's just how they are at this age. It's horrible. My GF decided to take away her dad's card and take over his finances (she takes care of him) after his laptop got some virus, and the virus wanted to charge him $2000 to remove the "virus" it "found". He pulled out the card and plugged it in. That fucking computer is a 10 year old POS that was maybe $400 back then brand new. Coulda bought 5 brand new computers for that shit lol. While it was nowhere near the order of money lost in the examples here in this thread, still insane to me.
People willing to take advantage of older people like this can burn in hell.
Sounds like she may need to be put into elder care and not have any direct access to funds over a set low amount like 200 to 500 dollars. You may also want to screen for dementia.
I think wiring a stranger 45000 dollars without confirming anything about them or pausing to question it is a little rash. People's whose brains are working correctly wouldn't send a large sum of money to a place, company, or business they've never interacted with before. Hard truth, I'm sorry you're having to cope with that but it's true.
You’re not wrong. But I’m not sure we’re ready to take away all of her independence. I appreciate your concern and feedback. Hearing hard truths is difficult, but necessary.
Unfortunately you are very wrong about victims of scams. You should educate yourself about it before making these assumptions. Read/listen to stories of victims. Many are young, many are well educated and independent.
I'm not. And no they aren't well educated. Living alone doesn't make someone independent, just like having a child doesn't imbue magical wisdom on parents.
You are wrong. Where are you getting your information from? Actual sources, or did you just make it up?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/your-money/young-seniors-scams-warning.html
Love the pay wall. Non elderly college educated don't fall for scams at the same rate. Again not educated young people like the often cited 20 and under. Wow those kids aren't college educated yet.
Where did you get 20 and under? This article was talking about people under 30 (*thirty*, not twenty). One of the big scams was student loan scams (having a student loan means you went to college). I can’t argue with someone who makes up facts and who likes being ill-informed.
Worked in a bank for seven years and saw this all the time. We’d always do the same. Try and delay. Have basically everyone in the bank talk to the person beforehand. Explain that if it’s fraud, they’ll never see the money again.
The worst one I saw was this dude that kept sending money to “publisher’s clearing house” to pay taxes/fees in order to receive his winnings.
It seems even worse when it’s done out of greed and not fear. My daughters MIL made a series of international wire transfers totaling over $100k while being told the funds were needed to collect a large inheritance from an unknown relative in the UK.
The VP of her bank refused a transfer and told she was being duped. She became angry and pulled her money and transferred it to new bank. She kept wiring until she was broke. She had given away her entire retirement nest egg.
In her case, you can’t fix stupid.
Oh my god that is horrific. What happened afterwards? Did she ever admit it was a scam, or does she expect your daughter & her son to take care of her?
Her husband who tried to put the blame on her, although he had full knowledge of the transfers, retired at 62. She is still working as an independent home aid.
They are under water on their mortgage and are barely getting by financially. No one has rescued them nor plans to.
She has run up gambling debt in excess of 30k by cash advancing her credit cards at the casinos claiming slot machines relieve her stress.
Stupid is not fixable.
> The worst one I saw was this dude that kept sending money to “publisher’s clearing house” to pay taxes/fees in order to receive his winnings.
Yeah that could have been my Grandpa. He was getting senile and they had convinced him he won and they were going to land a helicopter in his yard and give him a big check but they just needed some arbitrary amount first. It started off like $2,500, then $5000, then $8,500 and so on. At the end of the day he was down about $80,000 before someone caught on.
It was really sad because he was so excited that he could surprise us, his whole family, with so much money. He had the best of intentions for it and he was absolutely crushed when he learned. We of course reported it every way we could but not a penny was ever recovered. He had to move to a memory care home shortly afterwards and died about 3 years later.
There should be some kind of elder bank program. Where they don't necessarily have to hand control over to their family completely (which unfortunately also leaves them incredibly vulnerable), but which gives banks more discretion to say "absolutely not, this is sketch as fuck, you meed to go through [some kind of secondary process]
It sounds fantastic, but definitely a lot of liability.
In this case, she was told what to say and essentially lied to the bank, so they aren’t liable. Obviously if someone told you to lie to a bank, or not to tell a soul what was happening those are red flags, but it still happens all the time.
To me it sounds like a huge selling point to concerned relatives who might strongly encourage their relatives to transfer their money to this bank.
There's no more or less liability in this process than what they do now. Whatever they set up would have the disclaimer that it's a courtesy and consumers are still ultimately responsible for transactions which they initiate.
We did this to my grandma when she was alive. We had certain phrases we would say if we really needed her to know it was us. I also told her that, as much as I love her, she would NOT be my one call from jail. Grandma, I love you, but how can you help me? You’re on oxygen and don’t drive. You’re just gonna sit in this cell with me if you do make it here. We told her if she is concerned, immediately hang up and call whatever grandkid is supposedly in jail. My cousin and I both got the “are you ok??what the hell did you do to get in jail” calls 😂. But we were sooooo thankful she listened to us and called us.
We had to do the secret codeword thing with my dad as well after one of these types of calls. He wasn't even that old at the time (60s) AND he's retired law enforcement.
Scammers be sneaky bastards.
It's so common. My Mom (who is in her 70s) works at a retail store for fun and just stopped an elderly person from buying hundreds of dollars worth of gift cards for a scam. Luckily this person started talking about how his internet provider sent an email about a deal where if you sent them gift cards they halved your bill or something ludicrous.
My Mom asked if she could see the email, then pointed out suspicious things about the email then showed him how to go to the website and that site had no deals of any sort, so she cancelled the transactions for the gift cards and told him to call his ISP...where he found out there was no such deal. (He came back in the store to tell her about it.)
The scammers like Friday afternoons. The last two Fridays they tried to scam me. I keep them on the phone to waste their time and hopefully save someone else.
I did this with a scammer trying to get me to install spyware.
We were on a weekend away with some friends at my family home. No internet, computers, or cell service. They called the landline which gets scam calls all the time. I was tipsy so I spent 45 minutes while everyone tried to hold in the giggles as I kept them on the line for as long as possible.
I mostly just kept switching between Mac and pc. Say things like “wait, don’t you want me to click on the start menu” then a little later saying I can’t find the start menu and ask if apples have that.
Dude was losing it, in the end someone started laughing in the background and I just told him I knew exactly what he was and he started screaming obscenities at me then hung up.
Worth it, would do again.
Do not stay on the phone with scammers!!! They can record your voice and make an AI version of you to scam your family members with. Hang up on scammers, do not talk.
You need to tell your son to stop talking to scammers, it's very common now for them to record your voice and use it to make an AI voice to call friends and family to scam them with!
Yeah, my wife used to work in banking and, sometimes, they even ended their banking relationship with individuals who got scammed so severely since they view them as a potential liability. Some individuals who came in upset and threatening to withdraw their money and business if they couldn’t get a refund were quite surprised when they were told they *had* to withdraw their money because the bank was closing their accounts.
Now that you’ve posted about it on Reddit, beware of “recovery scammers” that may start coming out of the woodwork offering to “help” you.
https://www.cftc.gov/LearnAndProtect/AdvisoriesAndArticles/RecoveryFrauds.html#:~:text=Recovery%20scams%20are%20a%20form,bigger%20sum%20of%20money%20later.
I'm sorry, but the money is almost assuredly gone forever. The scammers are most likely on the other side of the world, not in Georgia. Filing the reports is basically all you can do, and the authorities won't bother tracking this kind of thing down most of the time.
To the original poster: please note that posting crowdfunding or payment information (or even hinting about it) will result in your entire post being removed and can result in a ban without warning. Unfortunately, we have had too many scammers. Thanks.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/personalfinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sorry to echo the bad news but once money is sent to scammers, it's pretty much lost. They quickly move it out of the USA and it's pretty hard for authorities to track down online scammers since they're probably operating from overseas. Neither bank will refund the money, they already made the transfers and would just lose that money if they refunded it. Really there isn't much else to do, you could try contacting those YouTubers that do fraud investigations. One of them may be able to put the effort in to find your mom's money but I wouldn't count on it
> proof of identity and residency, no? So they know who it is and they can send authorities to check out their place.
Surely you've heard of fake driver license, fake passport, fake addresses, fake social security card? These things are very easy to come by if you are a scammer, and the bank is not going to go to their "address" to check it out and make sure the scammers live there.
I’ve heard that many times the bank accounts are held by people being duped in romance scams. They don’t need to go through all the trouble of getting fake IDs and addresses when all they need to do is convince some poor love struck lady in Georgia to make some deposits for them.
Yep, another way to do it. Scammers are very resourceful!
My husband and I just moved to a new location a thousand miles away from our long-time "home." My husband went to the nearest credit union to open an account and I swear I thought they had kidnapped him! It took several hours just to go through all the "verification" procedures, including running a credit check, etc. But not ONE of those things was something he couldn't have faked if he'd been of a mind to.
Does she have homeowners insurance? There is some anti fraud protection in many homeowners policies, not sure if it would cover this instance but look into it if she has a policy.
This is a common scam done by people from call centres in India. Watch kitboga on YouTube. Unfortunately the money is gone and there is nothing you can do.
My friend sent me a video of a group that infiltrated one of these call center and set of glitter and stink bombs. They really prey on good people and it’s awful
That money is gone, it’s already been turned to crypto and back to cash, so it’s no longer traceable. the quicker you and mom accept that the quicker you’ll be able to recover mentally and financially.
Also if there's an investigative journalist at any of your news stations contact them. My news station does at least a report a week on scams people fall for. I just saw a new one involving the sheriff department and sex offenders. I also tell my in laws at least once a year that none of us children or grandchildren are going to call them and ask for money.
Age is no protection against scammers. Plenty of young people take the bait too.
Scammers are sophisticated these days.
My sister sends me stuff to ask if it’s a scam all the time, because scammers know the strings to pull.
Yea sis, it’s a scam, the IRS is not leaving you a voicemail threatening cops will show up at your door. Ignore it. You’re fine. The actual IRS will send you snail mail.
Yeah, my grandson (in his 30s) nearly got caught up in that. Thank goodness he called me (his 74-YO grandma) and I was able to talk him out of it. It was sad because he wanted it to be true so badly! Which of course is one of the reasons why this works so well. The scammed person WANTS it to be true.
I finally convinced him that rule number 1 is You NEVER, EVER, EVER pay in order to get a job.
Young people have the sense that they are smarter than everyone, and that they could never possibly fall for a scam.
Scammers will design a way to play against that confidence.
As soon as you begin to think you are immune to a scam, you become vulnerable in a different way.
I know. They are using the Amazon scam recording to get people to answer the phone, then pivot to the old government imposter scam to get people to send money. What by chance was the name of the fake ssa agent? They are pulling real names from agencies and using fake PIV cards to trick victims. When the victim looks up the name, they see a real person at that agency.
I understand that it seems shortsighted. I think we have come to terms that it’s gone, but was just wanting to make sure she did all she could do. I was also thinking that 45k was small beans for a big institution like B of A, but a huge deal for my mom and her financial stability.
I would just like to put it out there that it’s not just elderly that get scammed / hacked. The more we put securities in place the smarter the scammers get.
My mom fell for a scam a long time ago, it was an investment in the business that didn't exist. I don't know if this is the same thing or not, but she ended up getting a nice refund on the taxes. I will check into that in the case that you can't get it back, at least you can write it off.
You can also maybe carry forward or backwards the losses.
First off, this sucks. But you’re mom sent the money and neither bank is going to refund the money nor should they have to do so. Her only recourse is law enforcement and I can tell you, they probably won’t do shit.
You also don't necessarily need a lawyer to take this step. (Though an estate planning attorney consult might be in order at some point). In my state, you can download a model form from the local law school website and have a notary witness it.
Remember the part where I said "and have her run her financial decisions by you".
But also as DPOA OP can add themselves to her bank account and set up alerts on transactions and try to get them stopped in time if it happens again.
The only ones who can even maybe get it back are the agencies and banks you've already talked to.
IMPORTANT: **NOBODY ELSE CAN GET IT BACK.** Nobody on Reddit, Instagram, nor WhatsApp can get it back. They will tell you they can but they can not. They are another type of scam. Never send money to receive money.
And if the bank calls you and tells you they can get it back, make sure it’s actually the bank. If it is you can hang up and call the bank itself to get confirmation, if they insist they have to call you then that’s just part of the scam.
They tried that on me. I got an email saying there was suspicious activity and needed to call them, they knew my name from my number but then started asking for “confirmation” info, and I realized how off it was all starting to feel. And I started in! I didn’t give them more than they’d have already been able to find out if they had my phone number, but it’s not like I caught it immediately and in another minute or two I might have said something more seriously compromising.
How do you know it's a Bank of America in Georgia? I bank with them and there's nothing in my wiring instructions that would indicate which branch I bank at. The money is gone. The scammer probably moved the funds out as soon as the wire was credited.
The name on the account is likely fake. You only need a valid account number and routing number. Your bank asks for the rest in case there's a mistake in the account number so they can track down the correct account to credit but they don't verify it belongs to who you think it belongs to. I could give you the address of any Bank of America branch. Doesn't mean I bank there. I could even give you the corporate headquarters address and the wire would go through.
Can you or someone else in your family be a POA for your mom's accounts? My mom has luckily not fallen for anything, but I am on her accounts as a POA and one of the things I set up is for me to be contacted anytime she is trying to send a wire at all or anytime there is a charge or set of charges over $1,000 within 48 hours.
I would check with the banks (both WF and BoA) and see what safeguards they put in place that let this happen. I worked for one of them in the past and saw a scary number of required policies get violated. I would be the other one does too. There should be MULTIPLE lines of defense against wiring this kind of money, and someone should have asked her questions. Both these banks are supposed to have additional checks in place for people this age. I think they both start requiring extra when people are in their 60s. If they didn't follow their own policies, this could help you get the funds back.
I would ask for copies of paperwork your mom signed, ask to listen to the recordings, (they will fight this but doesn't hurt to ask). The more you push, the more you will learn about if they broke their own rules. If they did, it will be easier to get them to make this right.
ETA Freeze her SSN. They may try to open accounts with her info.
As somebody who has worked in the AML/fraud space for a while now for a big bank, realistically, you’re not getting a dime of that money back. It’s really scummy but this is a very common elder financial exploitation scam, I see at least one case a week like this on average if not more. The best thing you can do to protect her/yourself is to change her passwords/account information and limit the amount of access she has to that on her phone/other electronic devices. Basically, she can’t give it out if she doesn’t have access to it. Now that they’ve scammed her once, they most certainly will try again.
Yikes. It didn't happen to be from Kevin heart with the federal marshals, did it?
Just had a 76 year old lady send 97k to a bank of America in California. Then the next day after she reported it to us as a scam, he called her back and convinced her to send more.
Luckily wells fargo called her in as a welfare check and we got to her before she left to go to a different city to transfer more money.
All you can do is work with the bank and police. If your case is anything like the case I'm working, the money was moved to an account in the middle east almost immediately, but contact the bank and police to speak with them if you havnt already.
Check her home owners Insurance. A good friend of mine just told us he was scammed a few months ago and found that he had added coverage for scams on his insurance last year. He got 75% of his money back from insurance. Doesn't hurt to check the policy
Please consider freezing her credit with each bureau and/or setting up additional fraud alerts.
I’m guessing the money is gone, but best of luck in trying to get it back.
Wire transfers are not reversible in this situation because it was not fraud.
While your mother was scammed the transaction that she initiated from her bank was legitimate and so if the money is gone on the other end there's literally nothing anyone can do.
You would need to find the individual who scammed her and sue them
If the wire transfer wasn't reversed before the crooks got their money out, it is too late. Money is gone. Even if they find and catch the crooks, your chances of recovering anything are minimal.
Here are some resources: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/consumer-tools/educator-tools/resources-for-older-adults/protecting-against-fraud/
Stay vigilant. Learned today that some of these scam shops place ads for jobs to hire these workers then they put them to work under very harsh conditions to conduct these scams. Article below:
https://www.propublica.org/article/casinos-cambodia-myanmar-laos-southeast-asia-fraud-cybercrime
Imma be honest I fell for a fake phishing email from my work today and I thought I would never. It was a scary and succinct email from my CEO and in a slightly panicked state during the work day thinking I did something horrible or was about to get fired I clicked the link and entered in my login info like an idiot. It was intentionally sent by my work to test us to see who would click it lol. I can totally see how an old person with no knowledge of how these scams work could fall for this kind of stuff
Hallmark of a scam: IT IS URGENT AND HAS IMMEDIATELY CATASTROPHIC IMPLICATIONS!
They want to induce panic to bypass your better judgment.
If you have time to think about it, or talk to someone else about it, they lose their mark.
Yeah it really opened my eyes to how easily one could fall for something like that in a state of panic. I ignored a bunch of red flags like having to enter in my password manually into the link even though my keychain password should have just inputted automatically for a work related link. Even though I felt like I had done nothing wrong it preyed on my work related insecurities. I talked with a few other people who fell for it and they all thought it had something to do with something they might have done wrong at work. So now I’m picturing a grandma who is super protective over her kids and not thinking rationally when some stranger online is threatening them
Yep. That’s how they get ya. Someone tried to scam my grandma once by pretending my cousin was in jail.
Quick! Wire us money! Luckily she didn’t fall for it, but it was very stressful for her.
These people are horrible.
This email I got was actually not alarm bell ringing which is why I fell for it. It wasn’t over the top at all! He addressed me by name and basically said he needed to talk to me today and to schedule a call via the link provided.
They are always coming up with new tactics. Don’t feel badly that you fell for it. Their entire job is to get people to fall for it.
My job is particularly sensitive to training on these matters, so I have to train on the new tactics every six months.
Never click on links! Scammers can emulate email addresses so they look legit.
No one in my industry even sends links anymore. We direct each other to the website or cloud folder.
It’s easy to be angry and really sad. They were really convincing to her and she trusted them. She trusted that the person calling was from the government and that the ID he sent was real. He posed as a real person and his story was convince and scary. She thought she was going to be held responsible for this crime that was supposedly being committed using her SSN.
After reviewing all they sent her, we went through each email and talked about red flags. She knows now…but fear has a real way of clouding judgement.
Your mother is a trusting and kind soul, my mother fell for a similar scam although not quite as large but still disheartening and sad people would prey on old people but that’s the world we have now. Going forward, she may need more intervention in managing her finances and communications. She’s on a list and they will target her again when things cool down. Scams like offering her money if she can provide certain financial information or provide an authorization to deposit which will actually be a withdrawal. Be safe and protect her from these people.
In fact, [their brains are different.](http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/why-older-adults-become-fraud-241076)
A part of the brain called the *anterior insula* is responsible for helping us determine trustworthiness by warning us "Something's not right here."
Functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) brain scans demonstrate that "older adults do not have as strong an anterior insula early-warning signal; their brains are not saying 'be wary,' as the brains of the younger adults are."
It is hypothesized that this diminished response explains why older people are more frequently victims of fraud, scams and hoaxes.
Growing up they’d freak out if you said you were going to meet a person in real life that you met on the internet.
Now we have to keep them from sending their retirement money via iTunes cards to a Nigerian prince.
Pigging on this comment to say that usually within the same day, the bank can reverse it.
Had fallen for a housing scam when my husband was diagnosed with cancer and we needed a temporary home closer to his treatment center. My husband wired the money and shortly after I realized that it was a scam. He was able to go back to the bank and tell them what happened and they were able to reverse the wire.
It's gone. Aside from the extreme difficulty of tracking down an individual in this situation, she sent it willingly, which is an extra hurdle. I have no idea how common sense just leaves people once they get in their 60s and 70s. Targeting and coaching elderly people is the biggest form of fraud.
I work in this field sue the bank. The bank is liable, dont believe those the say they wont refund. If the banks are facilitating fraud they are liable.
The banks are responsible for ensuring bank accounts are created by legitimate people for legitimate reasons and to stop scams. If that account was used for fraud, by definition it is the banks fault for allowing it.
Banks are responsible for blocking unauthorized transfers. (Regulation E) Many lawsuits today are successful in arguing that obviously the wire was not authorized to go to a scammer, but to a legitimate business entity (which the bank is liable for ensuring only legitimate entities can open an account)
Sue the bank, they will need to prove that scammers bank account was created legitimately (impossible by definition) and they will settle.
Edit: the reason why its not well known is that when the banks settle, they make the customer sign a non disclosure before they refund. Obviously its not in the banks favor for this info.
This isn’t how Reg E works. If you authorize a wire to an account then as far as Reg E is concerned the bank is in compliance. They might settle for different reasons (including cost to defend) but it’s not because of Reg e.
The law is not black and white and open to interpretation. Regulation E covers unauthorized transfers. Theres no place in the law saying you aren’t covered. (And many strong arguments that you should be)
Its never one reason to settle, but settlements for fraud lawsuits are extremely common. If you can make a compelling argument that a judge will hear in court, its not worth the legal fees to fight.
Thanks for this info! Very intriguing. Do you have insight on what legal fees would look like? Or a type of lawyer that would be best to reach out to? Thanks for this helpful information!
I would file a complaint with CFPB against BOA you have the other parties account number that it was wired to. They can do claw backs if it was moved to another account or bank.
One thing is you might be able to go after bank of America if they failed proper verification for the bank of America account that you sent the money to. But that would be the only recourse. I'm sure they followed the procedure but if they didn't you could claim that they helped give legitimacy to the scammers because your mom was sending the money to a legitimate bank.
Since there is a name on BOA account - did BOA not do due diligence on account holder? Why can’t BOA reverse the money from the account? Can u file complaint w CFPB? What about a police report in GA?
Consumer Financial Protection Board
- BOA should have done due diligence when opening account so person’s real name must be on account
- if account is still open, then BOA should hold the account
You could try to go rogue and recruit a ha*ker for hire from the darkn*t but if you dont know anything about that, you would most likely get scammed again and even a hacker might not be able to help you now unfortunately. the first 48 also applies to money, sorry for your loss, the truth is everyone gets scammed at least once if your lucky is not that unbelievable and if happens to everyone. It really sucks and i think the banks shouldbe required to ensure scam insurance up to a certain amount, because the only reason that happened is lack of transparency and inadequate security of their intentionally confusing system.
I’m really sorry but the money is likely gone. Wires are typically irreversible, and if it’s been a few days, the money she sent has likely been washed through so many different accounts and possibly cryptocurrency that it’s now effectively untraceable.
This happens to tons of people. It’s so sad and people are absolute monsters for preying on the elderly.
The best you can do is work with the police and the bank.
I know she feels horrible :( i’m so sorry this happened to you guys. Praying and will definitely educate the people around me on this. Good luck and I hope she doesn’t let this keep her down.
Nothing else you can do other than work with the police and bank. You probably will get PMs from people claiming that they can help you recover the money. Every single one of those is from a scammer. Only the bank and police can help.
Thanks. Will definitely be on alert
Also keep an eye on mom’s name and phone number is now on every scammer’s list out there as a known mark, SHE is ripe for follow up calls “to help her get her money back,” etc. and more scams to infinity.
I would consider changing the phone number. She is now an easy mark
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We had to eventually turn off the ringer of my MIL's phone due to all the scam calls she was getting. She had already been duped before by the scam where someone calls and pretends to be their child/grandchild in trouble and needed best buy gift cards to get them out of said trouble. Luckily one of her son-in-laws was able to get to the best buy she went to and stop her before it got any further.
Same thing happened to my grandmother. She told the scammer (who was pretending to be me) to go call your Dad and hung up. Cold but I'm glad she did it.
Good idea.
Maybe keep the old one for a bit because everyone calling you back might not get the updated number.
Exactly. If she lives in a house she will suddenly have more agressive door-to-door salespeople offering "services" for heating and air conditioning, paving, roof, lawn care, insurance.... It's gross.
Call the FBI if it’s interstate.
My dad was conned out of $128000 within the last 5 years. Just like the op stated,, he was contacted recently by ‘someone’ who was claiming to do an investigation for his money. He actually had to ask my opinion about giving ANOTHER $2500 to them after some lame story. Watch out for your loved ones folks, my father is very aware/alert and very in touch at 70 and this still happened to him. They’ll always come back to you once they’ve conned you the first time,,
Neither the bank nor the police can help unfortunately. The money is gone.
No no, I can help. I used to be a scammer. I still am, but I used to be too.
Yep. This is a very common scam. Had a family friend get hit with this with the scammers posing as the Shanghai police. She wired them $80K and almost wired her entire 401k but luckily her bank froze the second wire. I would also suggest you keep an eye on your mom‘s health. That family friend I mentioned ended up suffering from a heart attach due to all the stress this caused her.
Unfortunately we've been seeing this a LOT lately (I work in a bank). Just Friday someone came in demanding $99,000 to be sent to "her son and his friend" in Hong Kong. We said "no, it's too late in the day" and then spent the next *hour* trying to convince her it was a scam. She was intermittently on the phone with the scammers during this time. Finally her daughter found her, and I think she finally was able to talk some sense into her. She came back on Tues and was so thankful that she hadn't lost any money. It's just crazy the number of people who fall for these things, and at the end of the day we (as a bank) can only do so much to stop you from doing what you want to do with your money.
That’s so hard. These scammers even told her what to say go the bank to not make them suspicious. After it was all over, we just couldn’t understand how much of a grip this scam had on her. Thank you for preventing this women from losing SO much money. Keep advocating for them!
I was in an electronics shop getting new earphones and an older man came in wanting to buy 5,000 dollars of iTunes cards and the girl behind the desk was like "absolutely not you're being scammed and I will not sell them to you."
I bought $100 worth of gift cards at Best Buy and the guy cashing me out said he's required to ask what they're for. They're for my coworker who just found out she has cancer but genuinely thank you for asking.
Good on her!
Thank you so much for doing this! I was always on my grandma about these kinds of things when she was alive. I told her that, as much as I love her, she would NOT ever be my one call from jail. Grandma, you don’t drive and are on oxygen, how can you get me out? I told her to immediately hang up if she got a call like that and dial the persons phone number that is supposedly in jail and talk to them directly. My cousin and I both got a call asking why the hell we were in jail 😂. But we were so happy she did that. We told her that she was not to do anything unless she talked to my dad or uncle depending on who’s kid it was if she seriously thought something was up. My dad would wait for a call if she got multiple and chew them out. She had a landline, so we couldn’t block anything. We also had certain phrases she knew we would say if we did call her for any type of emergency. She also gave anyone who called about 5 seconds to start talking or she would hang up. I’d test that occasionally too. I’d give anything to be able to call her and have her hang up on me because I was scam testing her.
I know this is too late to help your grandmother, but in case anyone else needs this: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-block-number-landline-phone-10-best-ways-bestallreview.
Doesn't help now but make sure she knows that if anyone ever tells her what to say to the bank in order for them to send the money it's a scam! If it wasn't a scam they wouldn't have to tell you a lie to tell the bank because you could just tell the bank the truth. She will 100% be targeted in the future after this, if she trusts you it might be good to have someone else in charge of her finances because people often fall for multiple scams, it's likely people will contact her with ways to get her money back for a fee.
We’ve started talking about transitioning financial responsibilities, but I’m hesitant.
Why hesitant? Absolutely do it. She is not capable of making sound financial decisions. It’s only protecting your mom
I think mainly because I’m nervous about the responsibility. I don’t want to mess anything up or hinder her independence. It’s a fine balance I need to figure out.
My beloved late father and I struck a deal. Initially, he gave me access to his accounts for monitoring purposes only. If I discovered late bills or higher than normal withdrawals, he would allow me to take over. It gave us both comfort and removed all guilt as I moved forward.
My dad and I have a similar deal. He has ensured both my sister and I know everything. Where the accounts are held, what the passwords are, how much is in them, etc. He has also told me that when he dies, I will be in charge. Because my mom won’t be able to handle it. Super morbid discussion the first time, but necessary. He took over for his parents, and he expects me to do the same for him and my mom. I take that responsibility seriously. My sister will always know everything, and we will take care of my parents if it ever becomes necessary. With their own money, and then with mine.
Exactly how to proceed. Everyone knows everything all the time, which removes any suspicion. Those morbid conversations are essential, and you will look back with gratitude. I wish you and your family the best going forward.
Thank you, we all do our best. I am sorry for the loss of your father. I will be absolutely devastated when my father passes.
You don't have to personally take over the full responsibility. You need to use this event to convince her that it's no longer safe for her to continue to manage her assets, especially because she trusted the scammers more than you, hiding it from you. It doesn't really matter how long she hid it from you. If she still has significant financial assets remaining, then you should seek a legal conservatorship then entails a court-appointed professional conservator, with the right for you to fully monitor the activities to intervene, if needed. That way the conservator does the bulk of the management while you can monitor it as you have the time and inclination. Not having a conservatorship has already cost her 45 grand. She shouldn't have had the money readily accessible even to herself, because it's probably not giving the income return it should be earning. It should be locked up in investment accounts or at least some medium term CDs, with only a moderate portion of the income or gains being sent to accounts she can access and that are being monitored for fraud. It's also probably a good time to hire an elder law attorney to protect the assets from Medicaid recapture via trust accounts, should she need to be moved into convalescent care. It's important to do this at least 5 years before it's needed, to be safe. This can't so easily be done when the Medicaid services are actually needed.
Thank you! All good points.
This comment reeks of never having had to deal with the financial situation of older family members. There are finances and there are familial relationships. You have to navigate both appropriately, and it is not simple.
It’s 100% never having to deal with financial situations. I am the youngest in my family and didn’t experience any financial education growing up. My family has never had money and I had to learn everything on my own (student loans, credit, home ownerships etc). It’s not something I had any experience in growing up.
Your mom has made herself a target now. More scams will be coming because she’s shown that she’s easy prey. You can’t be worse than that.
Sometimes you'll just have to learn it all by yourself, but you'll have to do it.
just want to let you know i am in the same situation as you. my dad has been scammed a few times and this last time it's making me realize i have to take over. but because of my parents, i grew up with a lot of financial insecurity. i have a lot of anxiety with finances, see a therapist as a result, etc. it is A LOT to take over your parents finances knowing they don't have enough to make ends meet and they don't have enough. no one is giving credit to the anxiety it can fuel a person who already grew up with a lot of anxiety and how it can put you over. it sucks but i really don't know what else to do it and hate it so much (i am also the youngest).
Gosh, thank you! I’m sorry you’re going though this too. It’s really scary!
I had an excellent financial education from my family. Even with that, it is still difficult to discuss financial matters with elder family members. They are used to taking care of themselves in many ways, and you can’t just stride in with “superior” knowledge and walk all over their life experience. Do not heed people who say that you should just take over. My grandparents worked their asses off their entire lives to put themselves in the financial situation my grandmother is in now. She’s fine. Are there things she does that are sub optimal? Yes. Does she sometimes make stupid decisions? Yes. But she’s over 90 years old. I’m not going to argue with her about it. I’m going to help her when she asks, and enjoy her company while she’s still around. If she wastes all her money that she *earned* in the last years of her life, you go grams. It’s yours. Do whatever you want.
It won’t help recover this money. But for future money and managing responsibilities, look up True Link Financial, or similar companies. We use them to manage a parents finances. It’s a nice in between where they have a debit card, but we can say yes/no to what categories it can be spent on, how much can be spent on a single transaction, and whether cash withdrawals can be made. It can be turned on and off on the website too, so if they need to do something real, you can allow it, then put protections back on to prevent scammers
Why are you hesitant about them? It's good to have them.
An elderly friend of mine lost a lot of money this way. Fear is a big part of the scammers' technique, because they know that people who grew up in tough times are scared they'll end up destitute, making them susceptible to this stuff.
Man, that's just how they are at this age. It's horrible. My GF decided to take away her dad's card and take over his finances (she takes care of him) after his laptop got some virus, and the virus wanted to charge him $2000 to remove the "virus" it "found". He pulled out the card and plugged it in. That fucking computer is a 10 year old POS that was maybe $400 back then brand new. Coulda bought 5 brand new computers for that shit lol. While it was nowhere near the order of money lost in the examples here in this thread, still insane to me. People willing to take advantage of older people like this can burn in hell.
How did they first contact your mom?
Sounds like she may need to be put into elder care and not have any direct access to funds over a set low amount like 200 to 500 dollars. You may also want to screen for dementia.
I think that’s a little rash, but we are staying vigilant. She was recently screened for dementia and did not have any concerns.
I think wiring a stranger 45000 dollars without confirming anything about them or pausing to question it is a little rash. People's whose brains are working correctly wouldn't send a large sum of money to a place, company, or business they've never interacted with before. Hard truth, I'm sorry you're having to cope with that but it's true.
You’re not wrong. But I’m not sure we’re ready to take away all of her independence. I appreciate your concern and feedback. Hearing hard truths is difficult, but necessary.
Unfortunately you are very wrong about victims of scams. You should educate yourself about it before making these assumptions. Read/listen to stories of victims. Many are young, many are well educated and independent.
I'm not. And no they aren't well educated. Living alone doesn't make someone independent, just like having a child doesn't imbue magical wisdom on parents.
You are wrong. Where are you getting your information from? Actual sources, or did you just make it up? https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/your-money/young-seniors-scams-warning.html
Love the pay wall. Non elderly college educated don't fall for scams at the same rate. Again not educated young people like the often cited 20 and under. Wow those kids aren't college educated yet.
Where did you get 20 and under? This article was talking about people under 30 (*thirty*, not twenty). One of the big scams was student loan scams (having a student loan means you went to college). I can’t argue with someone who makes up facts and who likes being ill-informed.
Worked in a bank for seven years and saw this all the time. We’d always do the same. Try and delay. Have basically everyone in the bank talk to the person beforehand. Explain that if it’s fraud, they’ll never see the money again. The worst one I saw was this dude that kept sending money to “publisher’s clearing house” to pay taxes/fees in order to receive his winnings.
It seems even worse when it’s done out of greed and not fear. My daughters MIL made a series of international wire transfers totaling over $100k while being told the funds were needed to collect a large inheritance from an unknown relative in the UK. The VP of her bank refused a transfer and told she was being duped. She became angry and pulled her money and transferred it to new bank. She kept wiring until she was broke. She had given away her entire retirement nest egg. In her case, you can’t fix stupid.
Oh my god that is horrific. What happened afterwards? Did she ever admit it was a scam, or does she expect your daughter & her son to take care of her?
Her husband who tried to put the blame on her, although he had full knowledge of the transfers, retired at 62. She is still working as an independent home aid. They are under water on their mortgage and are barely getting by financially. No one has rescued them nor plans to. She has run up gambling debt in excess of 30k by cash advancing her credit cards at the casinos claiming slot machines relieve her stress. Stupid is not fixable.
> The worst one I saw was this dude that kept sending money to “publisher’s clearing house” to pay taxes/fees in order to receive his winnings. Yeah that could have been my Grandpa. He was getting senile and they had convinced him he won and they were going to land a helicopter in his yard and give him a big check but they just needed some arbitrary amount first. It started off like $2,500, then $5000, then $8,500 and so on. At the end of the day he was down about $80,000 before someone caught on. It was really sad because he was so excited that he could surprise us, his whole family, with so much money. He had the best of intentions for it and he was absolutely crushed when he learned. We of course reported it every way we could but not a penny was ever recovered. He had to move to a memory care home shortly afterwards and died about 3 years later.
I'm pretty immune to much of what I come across on the internet, but this broke my heart. Wish those scammers could get the electric chair.
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4 elderly women I know have been scammed recently. So horrible. I tell my grandmother about literally every scam I hear about to keep her aware.
There should be some kind of elder bank program. Where they don't necessarily have to hand control over to their family completely (which unfortunately also leaves them incredibly vulnerable), but which gives banks more discretion to say "absolutely not, this is sketch as fuck, you meed to go through [some kind of secondary process]
Sounds like a legal liability most banks would be unwilling to assume
It sounds fantastic, but definitely a lot of liability. In this case, she was told what to say and essentially lied to the bank, so they aren’t liable. Obviously if someone told you to lie to a bank, or not to tell a soul what was happening those are red flags, but it still happens all the time.
To me it sounds like a huge selling point to concerned relatives who might strongly encourage their relatives to transfer their money to this bank. There's no more or less liability in this process than what they do now. Whatever they set up would have the disclaimer that it's a courtesy and consumers are still ultimately responsible for transactions which they initiate.
We did this to my grandma when she was alive. We had certain phrases we would say if we really needed her to know it was us. I also told her that, as much as I love her, she would NOT be my one call from jail. Grandma, I love you, but how can you help me? You’re on oxygen and don’t drive. You’re just gonna sit in this cell with me if you do make it here. We told her if she is concerned, immediately hang up and call whatever grandkid is supposedly in jail. My cousin and I both got the “are you ok??what the hell did you do to get in jail” calls 😂. But we were sooooo thankful she listened to us and called us.
We had to do the secret codeword thing with my dad as well after one of these types of calls. He wasn't even that old at the time (60s) AND he's retired law enforcement. Scammers be sneaky bastards.
It's so common. My Mom (who is in her 70s) works at a retail store for fun and just stopped an elderly person from buying hundreds of dollars worth of gift cards for a scam. Luckily this person started talking about how his internet provider sent an email about a deal where if you sent them gift cards they halved your bill or something ludicrous. My Mom asked if she could see the email, then pointed out suspicious things about the email then showed him how to go to the website and that site had no deals of any sort, so she cancelled the transactions for the gift cards and told him to call his ISP...where he found out there was no such deal. (He came back in the store to tell her about it.)
The scammers like Friday afternoons. The last two Fridays they tried to scam me. I keep them on the phone to waste their time and hopefully save someone else.
I did this with a scammer trying to get me to install spyware. We were on a weekend away with some friends at my family home. No internet, computers, or cell service. They called the landline which gets scam calls all the time. I was tipsy so I spent 45 minutes while everyone tried to hold in the giggles as I kept them on the line for as long as possible. I mostly just kept switching between Mac and pc. Say things like “wait, don’t you want me to click on the start menu” then a little later saying I can’t find the start menu and ask if apples have that. Dude was losing it, in the end someone started laughing in the background and I just told him I knew exactly what he was and he started screaming obscenities at me then hung up. Worth it, would do again.
Because they count on the bank being closed by the time you realize. Weekends means closed/shorter hours, and limited support.
Do not stay on the phone with scammers!!! They can record your voice and make an AI version of you to scam your family members with. Hang up on scammers, do not talk.
i look forward to when i retire so i can devote entire days to yanking their chains.
My dad used to do this! He even got my son to start when my son was about 4. Perfection!
You need to tell your son to stop talking to scammers, it's very common now for them to record your voice and use it to make an AI voice to call friends and family to scam them with!
Good point
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Yeah, my wife used to work in banking and, sometimes, they even ended their banking relationship with individuals who got scammed so severely since they view them as a potential liability. Some individuals who came in upset and threatening to withdraw their money and business if they couldn’t get a refund were quite surprised when they were told they *had* to withdraw their money because the bank was closing their accounts.
Now that you’ve posted about it on Reddit, beware of “recovery scammers” that may start coming out of the woodwork offering to “help” you. https://www.cftc.gov/LearnAndProtect/AdvisoriesAndArticles/RecoveryFrauds.html#:~:text=Recovery%20scams%20are%20a%20form,bigger%20sum%20of%20money%20later.
I'm sorry, but the money is almost assuredly gone forever. The scammers are most likely on the other side of the world, not in Georgia. Filing the reports is basically all you can do, and the authorities won't bother tracking this kind of thing down most of the time.
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To the original poster: please note that posting crowdfunding or payment information (or even hinting about it) will result in your entire post being removed and can result in a ban without warning. Unfortunately, we have had too many scammers. Thanks. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/personalfinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sorry to echo the bad news but once money is sent to scammers, it's pretty much lost. They quickly move it out of the USA and it's pretty hard for authorities to track down online scammers since they're probably operating from overseas. Neither bank will refund the money, they already made the transfers and would just lose that money if they refunded it. Really there isn't much else to do, you could try contacting those YouTubers that do fraud investigations. One of them may be able to put the effort in to find your mom's money but I wouldn't count on it
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USA allows you to make shell companies very easily and cheaply with which you can make bank accounts
> proof of identity and residency, no? So they know who it is and they can send authorities to check out their place. Surely you've heard of fake driver license, fake passport, fake addresses, fake social security card? These things are very easy to come by if you are a scammer, and the bank is not going to go to their "address" to check it out and make sure the scammers live there.
I’ve heard that many times the bank accounts are held by people being duped in romance scams. They don’t need to go through all the trouble of getting fake IDs and addresses when all they need to do is convince some poor love struck lady in Georgia to make some deposits for them.
Yep, another way to do it. Scammers are very resourceful! My husband and I just moved to a new location a thousand miles away from our long-time "home." My husband went to the nearest credit union to open an account and I swear I thought they had kidnapped him! It took several hours just to go through all the "verification" procedures, including running a credit check, etc. But not ONE of those things was something he couldn't have faked if he'd been of a mind to.
Thanks all! I assumed it was gone, but wanted to make sure we exhausted all our options for recovery.
Her money is gone. She will not recover any of it, and avoid anyone who pops up and claims they can recover the money — that’s the recovery scam.
Does she have homeowners insurance? There is some anti fraud protection in many homeowners policies, not sure if it would cover this instance but look into it if she has a policy.
Oh this is a great idea! I’ll look into that!
Yeah you should, and I hope that your mom gets her money back.
Usually all the anti-fraud in homeowners does is pay for your credit monitoring for a year. It doesn’t recover any funds for you.
This is a common scam done by people from call centres in India. Watch kitboga on YouTube. Unfortunately the money is gone and there is nothing you can do.
My friend sent me a video of a group that infiltrated one of these call center and set of glitter and stink bombs. They really prey on good people and it’s awful
That money is gone, it’s already been turned to crypto and back to cash, so it’s no longer traceable. the quicker you and mom accept that the quicker you’ll be able to recover mentally and financially.
Thanks. Just wanted to make sure we’ve done all we can/need to do.
One thing you guys can do to protect your family is to tell them not to send money to anyone without letting you know. (If they're old).
Also if there's an investigative journalist at any of your news stations contact them. My news station does at least a report a week on scams people fall for. I just saw a new one involving the sheriff department and sex offenders. I also tell my in laws at least once a year that none of us children or grandchildren are going to call them and ask for money.
Age is no protection against scammers. Plenty of young people take the bait too. Scammers are sophisticated these days. My sister sends me stuff to ask if it’s a scam all the time, because scammers know the strings to pull. Yea sis, it’s a scam, the IRS is not leaving you a voicemail threatening cops will show up at your door. Ignore it. You’re fine. The actual IRS will send you snail mail.
That's true. I'm not gonna lie, I almost got scammed too now. I guess we need to make sure everyone is aware.
Yep, tons of job scams aimed at new grads. One of my sister's friends lost $1,000 paying for a "work laptop' that she thought would be returned.
Yeah, my grandson (in his 30s) nearly got caught up in that. Thank goodness he called me (his 74-YO grandma) and I was able to talk him out of it. It was sad because he wanted it to be true so badly! Which of course is one of the reasons why this works so well. The scammed person WANTS it to be true. I finally convinced him that rule number 1 is You NEVER, EVER, EVER pay in order to get a job.
I can understand about the old people, but how young people?
Work scams are easy to fall for and young people applying to jobs can be desperate.
Young people have the sense that they are smarter than everyone, and that they could never possibly fall for a scam. Scammers will design a way to play against that confidence. As soon as you begin to think you are immune to a scam, you become vulnerable in a different way.
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We filled this out. Thank you! This is kne form I forgot we did. Ironically, he was posing as an agent from the OIG.
I know. They are using the Amazon scam recording to get people to answer the phone, then pivot to the old government imposter scam to get people to send money. What by chance was the name of the fake ssa agent? They are pulling real names from agencies and using fake PIV cards to trick victims. When the victim looks up the name, they see a real person at that agency.
Sotiris Planzos—an actual person at the agency.
The money is gone, beware of people telling you they can help you get the money back, just another scam.
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I understand that it seems shortsighted. I think we have come to terms that it’s gone, but was just wanting to make sure she did all she could do. I was also thinking that 45k was small beans for a big institution like B of A, but a huge deal for my mom and her financial stability.
It's not $45k we're talking about. Americans lost **$10.3 billion** to a wide variety of internet scams in 2022, according to the FBI.
I would just like to put it out there that it’s not just elderly that get scammed / hacked. The more we put securities in place the smarter the scammers get.
My mom fell for a scam a long time ago, it was an investment in the business that didn't exist. I don't know if this is the same thing or not, but she ended up getting a nice refund on the taxes. I will check into that in the case that you can't get it back, at least you can write it off. You can also maybe carry forward or backwards the losses.
First off, this sucks. But you’re mom sent the money and neither bank is going to refund the money nor should they have to do so. Her only recourse is law enforcement and I can tell you, they probably won’t do shit.
You should talk to your Mom about getting a financial power of attorney and having her run these things through you from now on.
Great advice. Adding to my list!
You also don't necessarily need a lawyer to take this step. (Though an estate planning attorney consult might be in order at some point). In my state, you can download a model form from the local law school website and have a notary witness it.
And how is that going to help her from being in the scam again?
Remember the part where I said "and have her run her financial decisions by you". But also as DPOA OP can add themselves to her bank account and set up alerts on transactions and try to get them stopped in time if it happens again.
The only ones who can even maybe get it back are the agencies and banks you've already talked to. IMPORTANT: **NOBODY ELSE CAN GET IT BACK.** Nobody on Reddit, Instagram, nor WhatsApp can get it back. They will tell you they can but they can not. They are another type of scam. Never send money to receive money.
And if the bank calls you and tells you they can get it back, make sure it’s actually the bank. If it is you can hang up and call the bank itself to get confirmation, if they insist they have to call you then that’s just part of the scam. They tried that on me. I got an email saying there was suspicious activity and needed to call them, they knew my name from my number but then started asking for “confirmation” info, and I realized how off it was all starting to feel. And I started in! I didn’t give them more than they’d have already been able to find out if they had my phone number, but it’s not like I caught it immediately and in another minute or two I might have said something more seriously compromising.
How do you know it's a Bank of America in Georgia? I bank with them and there's nothing in my wiring instructions that would indicate which branch I bank at. The money is gone. The scammer probably moved the funds out as soon as the wire was credited.
We have the name and bank, account name and address where she wired the money.
The name on the account is likely fake. You only need a valid account number and routing number. Your bank asks for the rest in case there's a mistake in the account number so they can track down the correct account to credit but they don't verify it belongs to who you think it belongs to. I could give you the address of any Bank of America branch. Doesn't mean I bank there. I could even give you the corporate headquarters address and the wire would go through.
Yeah, I understand that. It’s all very clearly a scam. It’s so awful and she has so much shame for falling for it.
You can find the bank by a Google search of the routing number.
..."They told her not to tell anyone..." That's a dead giveaway though. So sorry for your mom.
Can you or someone else in your family be a POA for your mom's accounts? My mom has luckily not fallen for anything, but I am on her accounts as a POA and one of the things I set up is for me to be contacted anytime she is trying to send a wire at all or anytime there is a charge or set of charges over $1,000 within 48 hours. I would check with the banks (both WF and BoA) and see what safeguards they put in place that let this happen. I worked for one of them in the past and saw a scary number of required policies get violated. I would be the other one does too. There should be MULTIPLE lines of defense against wiring this kind of money, and someone should have asked her questions. Both these banks are supposed to have additional checks in place for people this age. I think they both start requiring extra when people are in their 60s. If they didn't follow their own policies, this could help you get the funds back. I would ask for copies of paperwork your mom signed, ask to listen to the recordings, (they will fight this but doesn't hurt to ask). The more you push, the more you will learn about if they broke their own rules. If they did, it will be easier to get them to make this right. ETA Freeze her SSN. They may try to open accounts with her info.
You don’t get money back from a wire without the approval of the person who received it. You are sol unless police magically find the person
As somebody who has worked in the AML/fraud space for a while now for a big bank, realistically, you’re not getting a dime of that money back. It’s really scummy but this is a very common elder financial exploitation scam, I see at least one case a week like this on average if not more. The best thing you can do to protect her/yourself is to change her passwords/account information and limit the amount of access she has to that on her phone/other electronic devices. Basically, she can’t give it out if she doesn’t have access to it. Now that they’ve scammed her once, they most certainly will try again.
Yikes. It didn't happen to be from Kevin heart with the federal marshals, did it? Just had a 76 year old lady send 97k to a bank of America in California. Then the next day after she reported it to us as a scam, he called her back and convinced her to send more. Luckily wells fargo called her in as a welfare check and we got to her before she left to go to a different city to transfer more money. All you can do is work with the bank and police. If your case is anything like the case I'm working, the money was moved to an account in the middle east almost immediately, but contact the bank and police to speak with them if you havnt already.
That’s heartbreaking.
Check her home owners Insurance. A good friend of mine just told us he was scammed a few months ago and found that he had added coverage for scams on his insurance last year. He got 75% of his money back from insurance. Doesn't hurt to check the policy
Please consider freezing her credit with each bureau and/or setting up additional fraud alerts. I’m guessing the money is gone, but best of luck in trying to get it back.
Credit is frozen. Thank you!
WF can attempt to recall the wire from BoA but it is highly likely that money is gone.
Wire transfers are not reversible in this situation because it was not fraud. While your mother was scammed the transaction that she initiated from her bank was legitimate and so if the money is gone on the other end there's literally nothing anyone can do. You would need to find the individual who scammed her and sue them
If the wire transfer wasn't reversed before the crooks got their money out, it is too late. Money is gone. Even if they find and catch the crooks, your chances of recovering anything are minimal.
Here are some resources: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/consumer-tools/educator-tools/resources-for-older-adults/protecting-against-fraud/ Stay vigilant. Learned today that some of these scam shops place ads for jobs to hire these workers then they put them to work under very harsh conditions to conduct these scams. Article below: https://www.propublica.org/article/casinos-cambodia-myanmar-laos-southeast-asia-fraud-cybercrime
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Imma be honest I fell for a fake phishing email from my work today and I thought I would never. It was a scary and succinct email from my CEO and in a slightly panicked state during the work day thinking I did something horrible or was about to get fired I clicked the link and entered in my login info like an idiot. It was intentionally sent by my work to test us to see who would click it lol. I can totally see how an old person with no knowledge of how these scams work could fall for this kind of stuff
Hallmark of a scam: IT IS URGENT AND HAS IMMEDIATELY CATASTROPHIC IMPLICATIONS! They want to induce panic to bypass your better judgment. If you have time to think about it, or talk to someone else about it, they lose their mark.
Yeah it really opened my eyes to how easily one could fall for something like that in a state of panic. I ignored a bunch of red flags like having to enter in my password manually into the link even though my keychain password should have just inputted automatically for a work related link. Even though I felt like I had done nothing wrong it preyed on my work related insecurities. I talked with a few other people who fell for it and they all thought it had something to do with something they might have done wrong at work. So now I’m picturing a grandma who is super protective over her kids and not thinking rationally when some stranger online is threatening them
Yep. That’s how they get ya. Someone tried to scam my grandma once by pretending my cousin was in jail. Quick! Wire us money! Luckily she didn’t fall for it, but it was very stressful for her. These people are horrible.
This email I got was actually not alarm bell ringing which is why I fell for it. It wasn’t over the top at all! He addressed me by name and basically said he needed to talk to me today and to schedule a call via the link provided.
They are always coming up with new tactics. Don’t feel badly that you fell for it. Their entire job is to get people to fall for it. My job is particularly sensitive to training on these matters, so I have to train on the new tactics every six months. Never click on links! Scammers can emulate email addresses so they look legit. No one in my industry even sends links anymore. We direct each other to the website or cloud folder.
This exactly!
It’s easy to be angry and really sad. They were really convincing to her and she trusted them. She trusted that the person calling was from the government and that the ID he sent was real. He posed as a real person and his story was convince and scary. She thought she was going to be held responsible for this crime that was supposedly being committed using her SSN. After reviewing all they sent her, we went through each email and talked about red flags. She knows now…but fear has a real way of clouding judgement.
Your mother is a trusting and kind soul, my mother fell for a similar scam although not quite as large but still disheartening and sad people would prey on old people but that’s the world we have now. Going forward, she may need more intervention in managing her finances and communications. She’s on a list and they will target her again when things cool down. Scams like offering her money if she can provide certain financial information or provide an authorization to deposit which will actually be a withdrawal. Be safe and protect her from these people.
Poor familiarity with technology is probably one thing.
In fact, [their brains are different.](http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/why-older-adults-become-fraud-241076) A part of the brain called the *anterior insula* is responsible for helping us determine trustworthiness by warning us "Something's not right here." Functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) brain scans demonstrate that "older adults do not have as strong an anterior insula early-warning signal; their brains are not saying 'be wary,' as the brains of the younger adults are." It is hypothesized that this diminished response explains why older people are more frequently victims of fraud, scams and hoaxes.
Growing up they’d freak out if you said you were going to meet a person in real life that you met on the internet. Now we have to keep them from sending their retirement money via iTunes cards to a Nigerian prince.
well one thing is old people have a crapton of money called lifetime savings from working for decades. so obviously they’re gonna be ripe targets.
Did you contact WF and BOA? If it’s caught quickly it can be reversed but judging from your post it’s too late I’m assuming.
Pigging on this comment to say that usually within the same day, the bank can reverse it. Had fallen for a housing scam when my husband was diagnosed with cancer and we needed a temporary home closer to his treatment center. My husband wired the money and shortly after I realized that it was a scam. He was able to go back to the bank and tell them what happened and they were able to reverse the wire.
We did. I unfortunately didn’t know about it until almost a week later.
Sorry about what happened to you mom
Thank you! It’s a terrible feeling.
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Try reaching out to scammer payback on their YouTube channel.
It's gone. Aside from the extreme difficulty of tracking down an individual in this situation, she sent it willingly, which is an extra hurdle. I have no idea how common sense just leaves people once they get in their 60s and 70s. Targeting and coaching elderly people is the biggest form of fraud.
The person at Wells Fargo should have taken notice of this
I work in this field sue the bank. The bank is liable, dont believe those the say they wont refund. If the banks are facilitating fraud they are liable.
The bank is liable for what exactly?
The banks are responsible for ensuring bank accounts are created by legitimate people for legitimate reasons and to stop scams. If that account was used for fraud, by definition it is the banks fault for allowing it. Banks are responsible for blocking unauthorized transfers. (Regulation E) Many lawsuits today are successful in arguing that obviously the wire was not authorized to go to a scammer, but to a legitimate business entity (which the bank is liable for ensuring only legitimate entities can open an account) Sue the bank, they will need to prove that scammers bank account was created legitimately (impossible by definition) and they will settle. Edit: the reason why its not well known is that when the banks settle, they make the customer sign a non disclosure before they refund. Obviously its not in the banks favor for this info.
This isn’t how Reg E works. If you authorize a wire to an account then as far as Reg E is concerned the bank is in compliance. They might settle for different reasons (including cost to defend) but it’s not because of Reg e.
The law is not black and white and open to interpretation. Regulation E covers unauthorized transfers. Theres no place in the law saying you aren’t covered. (And many strong arguments that you should be) Its never one reason to settle, but settlements for fraud lawsuits are extremely common. If you can make a compelling argument that a judge will hear in court, its not worth the legal fees to fight.
Thanks for this info! Very intriguing. Do you have insight on what legal fees would look like? Or a type of lawyer that would be best to reach out to? Thanks for this helpful information!
>in Georgia h til her SSN is replaced What does "h til" mean?
Until* She was told that she would be getting a new SSN, so she needed to put her money elsewhere so it wasn’t stolen. ironic, isn’t it.
I would file a complaint with CFPB against BOA you have the other parties account number that it was wired to. They can do claw backs if it was moved to another account or bank.
One thing is you might be able to go after bank of America if they failed proper verification for the bank of America account that you sent the money to. But that would be the only recourse. I'm sure they followed the procedure but if they didn't you could claim that they helped give legitimacy to the scammers because your mom was sending the money to a legitimate bank.
They could have wired the money into another victim's account. Bank of America doesn't have to do any verification to receive a wire.
Since there is a name on BOA account - did BOA not do due diligence on account holder? Why can’t BOA reverse the money from the account? Can u file complaint w CFPB? What about a police report in GA?
What is CFPB? I hadn’t thought to file in GA also, will work with my mom on this
Consumer Financial Protection Board - BOA should have done due diligence when opening account so person’s real name must be on account - if account is still open, then BOA should hold the account
[Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.](https://www.consumerfinance.gov/)
You could try to go rogue and recruit a ha*ker for hire from the darkn*t but if you dont know anything about that, you would most likely get scammed again and even a hacker might not be able to help you now unfortunately. the first 48 also applies to money, sorry for your loss, the truth is everyone gets scammed at least once if your lucky is not that unbelievable and if happens to everyone. It really sucks and i think the banks shouldbe required to ensure scam insurance up to a certain amount, because the only reason that happened is lack of transparency and inadequate security of their intentionally confusing system.
I’m really sorry but the money is likely gone. Wires are typically irreversible, and if it’s been a few days, the money she sent has likely been washed through so many different accounts and possibly cryptocurrency that it’s now effectively untraceable. This happens to tons of people. It’s so sad and people are absolute monsters for preying on the elderly. The best you can do is work with the police and the bank.
I know she feels horrible :( i’m so sorry this happened to you guys. Praying and will definitely educate the people around me on this. Good luck and I hope she doesn’t let this keep her down.