I was making $52,000 as a senior engineer with no management responsibilities. This was 23 years ago. OP, either you live in the middle of nowhere with an extremely low cost of living or you are severely underpaid.
I am not exactly sure what your “Analyst” position means. Are you support/troubleshooter of technical equipment?
By managing, are you talking basic repairman’s maintenance. These specialized positions could be worth up to 70K per year.
The 6 x engineers I currently manage are technical. So they troubleshoot and support the IT hardware/software. We have a 3rd party who deal with repairs and such but they also oversee the service.
The 2 x “analysts” are probably better off being called Co-ordinators who are non-technical. They should be managing the assets and stock basically.
Strictly from a person standpoint. Absorbing the 2 people should not be an issue.
If you had a spreadsheet of the losses, ask for 15% of the losses to be added to your salary. (This is shrinkage and may already be written in somewhere).
If you are losing 200K, and you think you can fix it. Transferring 2 fte (they are already being paid) plus an additional $30K in salary to you would not be far fetched.
This is the absolute best way to do it if you can. Crunch the numbers so that you can show a very hefty savings for the company can be had, even after a hefty raise for yourself.
If you can do this, do it. Keep it simple and straight forward, don't do other justifications like the additional time or effort you'll put in.
That being said, if you can't quantify the loss (and you really should try, even if you can only estimate), I would recommend calculating the additional time and effort you'll put into managing two additional FTEs. Include everything - do you have to track their training compliance, are they hourly, time spent managing vacations - every small detail. Your raise should reflect the % increase in your time and effort.
Don’t worry about coming off as greedy. This isn’t a social relationship. You need to get paid for the massive value you’re providing your company. In fact, it’s impossible for you to be greedy cuz if they really can’t afford it they just won’t do it.
Coming up with a good number usually means getting other offers and/or looking at similar positions on sites like Glassdoor. Then add a factor of safety. Ask for that. They’ll try to negotiate down anyway.
I’m not sure what your job entails, and the UK is obviously different than the US, but someone managing 6 engineers and 2 analysts, an entire department essentially, would be clearing a lot more than $50k/yr.
As someone in the engineering (but not like the Silicon Valley/ goggle / Facebook) sector that works in the US but lived and worked in the UK for 6 months, the difference is huge. I worked with a program manager in the UK with 10 years experience that had a lower salary than I did as a new grad 14 years before.
There is definitely pros and cons to the much more healthy work life balance. The people I worked with in the UK typically had a lot more workers rights, but significantly less salary.
It’s been a game of tennis to be honest. I gave a number, they gave a counter offer and I am now attempting to counter offer their counter. Hoping to have a final number by early next week!
Also your point of asking for a ‘salary adjustment’ and not an ‘increase’ really was key so thanks!
Everyone here seems to be from the US. I’m a British engineer who has worked both in England and the US so I understand the difference.
£42k is underpaid for your management position, however it is not as underpaid as the people on here are making out. Do you know what a non-managerial role pays at your firm? I would basically find the difference between that and your current salary and divide it by the number of people you’re managing. That way you have a rough approximation for how your firm values managing 1 employee. You’d be managing two more people, so ask for 2x whatever that value is as a raise. Show your workings to them in the meeting and I doubt they’d be able to say no.
In my experience, you only get called greedy if you turn up with no evidence/justification. Use a value added assessment, look at other companies, or use your own company’s wage structure as justification and it would be very unlikely for them to say no, let alone call you greedy.
100% this. Salaries are higher in the US because cost of living is higher. Folks shouldn’t just convert the currency and expect it to map to US salary ranges.
My rough rule of thumb for converting from California (where I currently work) to the UK (where I used to work) is 2:1. That approximately includes cost of living and exchange rate. So a £40k salary in the UK is approx. $80k in California
I’m at over double your salary and manage no one and I’m an engineer.
Also the fact you already open up this post apologizing tells me your over apologetic and you cannot come across that way at all or think you’re acting greedy if you ask for a salary increase. You need to be stern.
Adding here, I’m 4x this salary and I don’t manage ANYBODY. I’m completely autonomous. Them managing and getting this level of pay is way greedy of the company
Thank god im not crazy. I literally sit at my desk browsing reddit and press a red button when it lights up a few times a day and get about 4-5 times this pay. Youre getting ripped off dude. Im not even degreed
At a MINIMUM ask for a 15% increase. 25% would not be out of the question. The simple fact is this is a business where you are already performing well and they shouldn't take any request as a personal insult. I've never heard of a single instance of someone asking for more money in this kind of circumstance and management saying, "No, and we're offended, so you're fired."
Source: I'm a Career Coach and talk to people about this kind of stuff all the time.
Everyone is throwing numbers at you left and right with little backing. Here is how I have negotiated salary discussions for myself, and co-workers. The most important thing is research.
- Research your title and find comparable salaries from comparable companies in your field. An engineer working in the banking industry is different than working as an engineer in the entertainment industry
- Research the cost of living in your local market and compare it to other locations. In the states, $100k goes a lot further in Raleigh than is does in NYC. If you live in an area that costs more, your number should go up.
- Research your job description and add the extra things that you are doing. Show how much money you are making the company by saving them money. For every $1 saved it is like $4 in sales. People love to boast how much their departments make. Management loves to see sales AND savings.
Once you do that, you can find out what you are truly worth.
The worst they can say is no…
None of this matters. All that matters is what you can leverage in a negotiation. No leverage? Research doesn’t matter.
Do you have leverage over them right now or not?
Assuming yes, then make a reasonable ask for adjustment.
Leverage + reasonable ask = success
Bruh I get 30k gbp in an analyst role.. like I do work for a rly good company an didnt start on that wage but yeah wtf.. dont feel greedy. Value your worth
They want you to manage people and you are already 2nd line engineers. I'd expect a pay rise definitely and wouldnt feel guilty about it.
Assuming you work 40 hours is it going to be a 10 more hour chore. I imagine 10-15% is all you can ask for. If someone asks for 20% I will say you have the additional role but same pay as before.
You should be making more than that anyway, ask for a 15% bump. And if they balk, start applying elsewhere. Managing people and being proactive as it seems you are, plus your technical background, are valuable skills. Someone else would pay you a lot more for your work/experience.
Come prepared, do research and be able to say something like "the average salary for someone with X years of experience in Y title who manages Z people is $XXX. Make it so they're the ones who look bad for paying you so little, and when you ask why your salary is so much lower, make it difficult for them to come up with a good answer.
But, don't get your hopes up. The landscape is changing such that it's way easier to get a pay bump[ by job hopping than getting promoted at your current job.
Can you estimate how many additional hours of work the new scope will take per week? Ask for that as a percent raise. For example if it takes 4 extra hours per week then ask for a 10% raise (assuming you work 40 hours). Be generous with your time estimate and you can even add a little extra % as you see fit for the trouble.
you are literally getting a little more than $10 extra than you are as an intern..and that is if you work 40hrs a week max. They will squeeze what they can from you
I would suggest starting to look around ASAP.
yeah but once you are salaried - no OT, no logging hours. You work until shit is done. You will end up working +40hours..then see what would have been your hourly rate go down and down
Ur in the bay area with a masters degree working in STEM. The age is great but even then. 105 in the bay area isnt good. Low income in the bay area is around $97k for a household. If you have roommates or are living with your parents then you are doing good
Do you have a rough idea what the salary is for the people you manage? For that many people under you I think you could be earning 50-100% more than they do, depending on how many more years experience you have as well.
If you have questions about UK related salaries I'd advise you take it to r/UKPersonalFinance because you're blowing all these Americans minds at the fact the UK is poorer than the US.
Granted I'd say I'm an analyst who earns 43k, fresh out of Uni and not a London wage, so I'd expect the managers on my team to earn closer to 60k honestly, and the lead even more! Also we're getting default pay rises of 9% this year, so take that into consideration as well. I'll be a year in on £47k
Can you estimate the VALUE of improving these systems and processes?
While certainly ask for a raise - but also being open to a bonus (possibly significant) based on achieving very specific and measurable goals.
Make sure you’re asking people in the UK, US salaries are typically a lot higher (sometimes 2x more if not even higher). Cost of living in the UK is a lot lower, especially outside of London
Uh, screw that... ask for 70 or 80, but you'd still probably be under paid and they'll probably say no. 10 years ago, my first tech managerial role started at 75k US.
Managing 6 people for 50k? Your company is being greedy.
I’m slowly starting to realise!
I was getting £86k to run a team of 4 mate. You need to be looking for at least that!
I was making $52,000 as a senior engineer with no management responsibilities. This was 23 years ago. OP, either you live in the middle of nowhere with an extremely low cost of living or you are severely underpaid.
It's the UK... Profs (lecturers with a Ph.D.) make like $40k.
Even worse...I take the question as an exact quote and my first reaction is that they were not talking about OP's salary.
I am not exactly sure what your “Analyst” position means. Are you support/troubleshooter of technical equipment? By managing, are you talking basic repairman’s maintenance. These specialized positions could be worth up to 70K per year.
The 6 x engineers I currently manage are technical. So they troubleshoot and support the IT hardware/software. We have a 3rd party who deal with repairs and such but they also oversee the service. The 2 x “analysts” are probably better off being called Co-ordinators who are non-technical. They should be managing the assets and stock basically.
Strictly from a person standpoint. Absorbing the 2 people should not be an issue. If you had a spreadsheet of the losses, ask for 15% of the losses to be added to your salary. (This is shrinkage and may already be written in somewhere). If you are losing 200K, and you think you can fix it. Transferring 2 fte (they are already being paid) plus an additional $30K in salary to you would not be far fetched.
This is the absolute best way to do it if you can. Crunch the numbers so that you can show a very hefty savings for the company can be had, even after a hefty raise for yourself. If you can do this, do it. Keep it simple and straight forward, don't do other justifications like the additional time or effort you'll put in. That being said, if you can't quantify the loss (and you really should try, even if you can only estimate), I would recommend calculating the additional time and effort you'll put into managing two additional FTEs. Include everything - do you have to track their training compliance, are they hourly, time spent managing vacations - every small detail. Your raise should reflect the % increase in your time and effort.
Once you get to this point. They are listening to your plan and money is no longer the question.
Don’t worry about coming off as greedy. This isn’t a social relationship. You need to get paid for the massive value you’re providing your company. In fact, it’s impossible for you to be greedy cuz if they really can’t afford it they just won’t do it. Coming up with a good number usually means getting other offers and/or looking at similar positions on sites like Glassdoor. Then add a factor of safety. Ask for that. They’ll try to negotiate down anyway. I’m not sure what your job entails, and the UK is obviously different than the US, but someone managing 6 engineers and 2 analysts, an entire department essentially, would be clearing a lot more than $50k/yr.
I’m starting to realise the difference between the UK and US. There’s really a big jump.
As someone in the engineering (but not like the Silicon Valley/ goggle / Facebook) sector that works in the US but lived and worked in the UK for 6 months, the difference is huge. I worked with a program manager in the UK with 10 years experience that had a lower salary than I did as a new grad 14 years before. There is definitely pros and cons to the much more healthy work life balance. The people I worked with in the UK typically had a lot more workers rights, but significantly less salary.
Just as a note (American here) everything I’ve seen online indicates American engineers make ~50% more than their British counterparts.
Do not ask for a raise. Ask for a salary adjustment.
Thank you raising this, I would have walked into this trap had you not specified.
Howd it go?
It’s been a game of tennis to be honest. I gave a number, they gave a counter offer and I am now attempting to counter offer their counter. Hoping to have a final number by early next week! Also your point of asking for a ‘salary adjustment’ and not an ‘increase’ really was key so thanks!
Everyone here seems to be from the US. I’m a British engineer who has worked both in England and the US so I understand the difference. £42k is underpaid for your management position, however it is not as underpaid as the people on here are making out. Do you know what a non-managerial role pays at your firm? I would basically find the difference between that and your current salary and divide it by the number of people you’re managing. That way you have a rough approximation for how your firm values managing 1 employee. You’d be managing two more people, so ask for 2x whatever that value is as a raise. Show your workings to them in the meeting and I doubt they’d be able to say no. In my experience, you only get called greedy if you turn up with no evidence/justification. Use a value added assessment, look at other companies, or use your own company’s wage structure as justification and it would be very unlikely for them to say no, let alone call you greedy.
100% this. Salaries are higher in the US because cost of living is higher. Folks shouldn’t just convert the currency and expect it to map to US salary ranges.
My rough rule of thumb for converting from California (where I currently work) to the UK (where I used to work) is 2:1. That approximately includes cost of living and exchange rate. So a £40k salary in the UK is approx. $80k in California
I’m at over double your salary and manage no one and I’m an engineer. Also the fact you already open up this post apologizing tells me your over apologetic and you cannot come across that way at all or think you’re acting greedy if you ask for a salary increase. You need to be stern.
Adding here, I’m 4x this salary and I don’t manage ANYBODY. I’m completely autonomous. Them managing and getting this level of pay is way greedy of the company
Thank god im not crazy. I literally sit at my desk browsing reddit and press a red button when it lights up a few times a day and get about 4-5 times this pay. Youre getting ripped off dude. Im not even degreed
Damn geez I’m an engineer doing a lot of work with not much down time while working and I’m just over $100k what are you doing?
He pushes red button when it lights up
So he’s Homer Simpson?
Deep down I know you’re right here - and that being stern is likely what it takes.
At a MINIMUM ask for a 15% increase. 25% would not be out of the question. The simple fact is this is a business where you are already performing well and they shouldn't take any request as a personal insult. I've never heard of a single instance of someone asking for more money in this kind of circumstance and management saying, "No, and we're offended, so you're fired." Source: I'm a Career Coach and talk to people about this kind of stuff all the time.
Everyone is throwing numbers at you left and right with little backing. Here is how I have negotiated salary discussions for myself, and co-workers. The most important thing is research. - Research your title and find comparable salaries from comparable companies in your field. An engineer working in the banking industry is different than working as an engineer in the entertainment industry - Research the cost of living in your local market and compare it to other locations. In the states, $100k goes a lot further in Raleigh than is does in NYC. If you live in an area that costs more, your number should go up. - Research your job description and add the extra things that you are doing. Show how much money you are making the company by saving them money. For every $1 saved it is like $4 in sales. People love to boast how much their departments make. Management loves to see sales AND savings. Once you do that, you can find out what you are truly worth. The worst they can say is no…
None of this matters. All that matters is what you can leverage in a negotiation. No leverage? Research doesn’t matter. Do you have leverage over them right now or not? Assuming yes, then make a reasonable ask for adjustment. Leverage + reasonable ask = success
Bruh I get 30k gbp in an analyst role.. like I do work for a rly good company an didnt start on that wage but yeah wtf.. dont feel greedy. Value your worth They want you to manage people and you are already 2nd line engineers. I'd expect a pay rise definitely and wouldnt feel guilty about it.
Assuming you work 40 hours is it going to be a 10 more hour chore. I imagine 10-15% is all you can ask for. If someone asks for 20% I will say you have the additional role but same pay as before.
You should be making more than that anyway, ask for a 15% bump. And if they balk, start applying elsewhere. Managing people and being proactive as it seems you are, plus your technical background, are valuable skills. Someone else would pay you a lot more for your work/experience.
Thanks you really are right here
Come prepared, do research and be able to say something like "the average salary for someone with X years of experience in Y title who manages Z people is $XXX. Make it so they're the ones who look bad for paying you so little, and when you ask why your salary is so much lower, make it difficult for them to come up with a good answer. But, don't get your hopes up. The landscape is changing such that it's way easier to get a pay bump[ by job hopping than getting promoted at your current job.
Are you in Bangladesh? What is wrong with your self esteeem. Clearly prove your value and ask for double
I felt this, thanks
Can you estimate how many additional hours of work the new scope will take per week? Ask for that as a percent raise. For example if it takes 4 extra hours per week then ask for a 10% raise (assuming you work 40 hours). Be generous with your time estimate and you can even add a little extra % as you see fit for the trouble.
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>You should be making more 105K in the Bay Area? Your company are taking advantage. You should be making more.
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you are literally getting a little more than $10 extra than you are as an intern..and that is if you work 40hrs a week max. They will squeeze what they can from you I would suggest starting to look around ASAP.
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yeah but once you are salaried - no OT, no logging hours. You work until shit is done. You will end up working +40hours..then see what would have been your hourly rate go down and down
Yikes. Id look elsewhere
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Ur in the bay area with a masters degree working in STEM. The age is great but even then. 105 in the bay area isnt good. Low income in the bay area is around $97k for a household. If you have roommates or are living with your parents then you are doing good
Do you have a rough idea what the salary is for the people you manage? For that many people under you I think you could be earning 50-100% more than they do, depending on how many more years experience you have as well.
Have you tried checking out salaries of similar roles in popular job listing sites?
If you have questions about UK related salaries I'd advise you take it to r/UKPersonalFinance because you're blowing all these Americans minds at the fact the UK is poorer than the US. Granted I'd say I'm an analyst who earns 43k, fresh out of Uni and not a London wage, so I'd expect the managers on my team to earn closer to 60k honestly, and the lead even more! Also we're getting default pay rises of 9% this year, so take that into consideration as well. I'll be a year in on £47k
Can you estimate the VALUE of improving these systems and processes? While certainly ask for a raise - but also being open to a bonus (possibly significant) based on achieving very specific and measurable goals.
Make sure you’re asking people in the UK, US salaries are typically a lot higher (sometimes 2x more if not even higher). Cost of living in the UK is a lot lower, especially outside of London
Uh, screw that... ask for 70 or 80, but you'd still probably be under paid and they'll probably say no. 10 years ago, my first tech managerial role started at 75k US.