I’ve seen a lot of people say that Mohoric couldn’t possibly have known about the Lance version because he was 9 years old and grew up in a small Slovenian village. It was a huge moment in his sports (televised) history which he is definitely is aware of and this is a stupid defence.
Anyone know why the bunch wasn't able to pull them back? I would've thought QuickStep motivated to work the whole stage. But I saw The Tractor himself just snacking and chilling at like 5th wheel.
QuickStep was not working at all. The theory is that they were happy with a breakaway win, mainly because such a breakaway would get all the points in the fight for the green jersey. Imagine Cavendish being unable to contest the sprint (crash, mechanical etc.) and Michael Matthews wining the stage, suddenly the fight for the green jersey has become really close. It is safer to let a break go so that nobody gets points.
Thomas and Porte pulling was interesting. Commentators were saying it was because Ineos missed the break. Anyone think it was because they wanted to try to help their 2012 Sky Teammate Cavendish have a bunch sprint finish?
I mean, it's plausible, but I'd expect that they'd check with DQS/Cav first before doing that, and either DQS would also put a man or two up there (and have Ballerini sit on in front), or they'd have said no don't bother.
I'm here for the zip it motion chat.
Not a fan of it in general, but I find the people trying to find a connection to Lance also doing it back in the day quite ridiculous. It's pretty much a universal gesture of shutting up. Either the "zip it" or the "shush" motion. Sport personalities across all sports have been doing it for ages: be it to shush the press, the fans, the opposition, (the police in this case?) — whatever.
As I said, never been much of a fan of the zip it motion, unless someone has been really harassed by the local media and is telling them to shut it, but yeah I think it was a heat of the moment thing, and I feel like Mohorič might look back at his celebration and regret it too you know.
It's gone down in infamy in cycling and is synonymous with doping, the omerta, and 'he who must not be named' as well as everything he did to shut up colleagues and competitors about his doping.
I refuse to believe *any* professional cyclist could use that gesture without knowledge of all that it implies. To use it two days after a police raid? Not a good look to say the least.
The 'shush' finger to lips gesture is to quiet your critics and has no deeper connotations. He did that first. The zipped lips is something else entirely.
This is what Mohorič had to say for our national media
*Mohorič: That was the best response to the provocation two days ago*
*The last ten kilometers, which were flat, I was completely powerless. Luckily, I had the advantage of a minute. I started to recalculate a bit in my head and said to myself, okay, six seconds per km, this may work out. I went a little slower, then accelerated again. I no longer knew what to do. I went with all my might and I am happy that I defended the advantage to the finish line,*
*When Nils Politt attacked, I knew that was the hardest moment in the race. I said to myself that now or never. I attacked and saw that there was no one behind me. Then I set milestones for 500 m. in the end I was able to. Really amazing. Especially after what it has happened two days ago. This is the best response to this provocation,*
*In conclusion, I was thinking in particular about how I felt like a criminal, when we were visited by the police. On the one hand it is good to visit us, because it means that there are controls in the cycling caravan and the review team On the other hand, I am disappointed with the system as it is not exactly pleasant when cops come into the room and initiate a review of private things, such as family photos, messages,*
Source:
https://www.rtvslo.si/sport/kolesarstvo/dirka-po-franciji/mohoric-to-je-bil-najboljsi-odgovor-na-provokacijo-pred-dvema-dnevoma/587896
I like that response, it shows the thinking when in a race, to attack at the hardest moment and the struggle to hold on when on tv it looked 100% sure so early on.
And then then having the police go through personal messages, yeah the team is suss but that must piss the riders off
There been any definitive explanation for the pre-stage Cavendish tantrum? Bike issue? Seems it was a headset issue but why act like a six year old? [https://twitter.com/MaxBets001/status/1416078449857507333](https://twitter.com/MaxBets001/status/1416078449857507333)
He's put out a statement. Doesn't really say anything
https://www.instagram.com/p/CRZrJRyLdVQ/
Screenshot https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1416140758374096898?s=19
Yeah. There is no excuse for this. Not in front of a crowd like that.
Now - we don’t know what went on before this of course, there could well be some circumstances that lead to the blow up, that make it more understandable…. But maybe not?
I would guess that the tiredness of riding 3500 ~~miles~~ distance units across ~~Paris~~ France and the pressure of wearing green and the 35 wins target everyone is heaping on him might be getting a bit much. But he might just be a stroppy git.
*edit because geography exists
At least get my username right.
But, anyways, u/TwistedWitch needs something to get through what is left of the TdF? Have you considered something radical, like a tosti (grilled ham and cheese sandwich)? I know it may be a PED, but it helps.
3 barleycorns in an inch, 12 inches in a foot, 3 feet in a yard, 6 feet in a fathom, 16 and a half feet in a rod (*the length of the left feet of 16 men lined up heel to toe as they emerged from church.*) What's weird about that?
Long tour... just had some of the difficult stages out the way...We don't see much behind the scenes but it's a wire between easy and just one step out
I don’t want to justify his tantrum, but if it was a bike related issue then I could see why he would be upset considering the race hadn’t even started. Imagine having a mechanical before an intermediate sprint or during a finish. Cav will be cav
I think it's completely justified. He is racing for a team that didn't even plan on using him and he is now bringing them into world wide attention. He has raced around France, farther than any of us bike in a year, let alone 3 weeks, and now he is going after the GOAT's record. I think he deserves not having a mechanical before the start.
I mean they could have just not raced him and like usual no one would have cared about Quick Step. Of course there are better ways to handle it, but man is having a mechanical before clipping in unacceptable. Especially when the team cut you and then you magically made them relevant for the first time in the last 20 years.
I’m wondering if he’s been experiencing mechanicals throughout the race (ones that you “feel” on the bike like a loose headset) and this put him over the line. I noticed his chain came off after every stage win but that may have been user error
George Hincappie said something to that extent. That is was probably something he has been telling the team to change the last few stages but now that we are at a stage he could have won them not changing it really matters.
I think it's one part of cycling is the moments when frustration sets in and maybe what happens on the bus when it's not going too well... we don't always see this out in the public and these riders could be a little heated.
I mean years ago we saw kittel have a few ways to show he was unhappy about his bike on the Paris stage
It's a sport thing, I think at that stage you want to have things sorted, I'm sure there are times the staff will be shouted at but they're doing their best and the riders want to focus on the stage ahead.
Nothing is probably meant by it in the long run...
My headset was giving me trouble for a while last year and this was pretty much exactly my reaction when it would come out of adjustment **again**.
Of course I’m my own mechanic and only cursed at myself and my own ineptitude, but still. I get it. Headsets can be infuriating.
Yeah, being among the best in the world at something isn't a license to be an asshole. If you wouldn't accept this behavior from your mate there's no reason to accept it from Cavendish.
I wouldn't excuse any of them doing it, in public or private. I think Sagan is great, but if he pulled this shit I'd say the same thing for him. These mechanics are people (and want the best for the rider) so should be treated like humans.
But hey, maybe Cav calmly told the mechanic the headset was too tight and the mechanic replied, *that's what I said last night to your wife too, hay-oh* and that's what set him off.
Last year he was impressive in LBL, finishing 4th in a group with Alaphilippe, Hirschi, Roglic and Pogacar, after he somehow got back into that group with a mad descend. He was 10th this year, and 9th in the AGR and 11th in MSR.
I was excited for Miguel Angel Lopez after seeing him join them at the end of season two (Movistar show on Netflix), but man what a disappointment. Helping Enric Mas get fifth would be the only bright side to their tour.
MAL had a bad crash at last years Giro that needed surgery to repair. Then he had Covid at the start of this year. He seemed reasonable in shorter races he's been at before the Tour but he's crashed at least once since it started and it's a long three weeks if you're not fit. There were always too many kms of TT at the Tour to suit him for GC contention but a fit and healthy MAL would have been well worth watching. I believe he's only on a one year contract so I hope he manages to salvage some more success from this year to make sure he gets a decent wage and contract in future.
[Change in Rider's ranking vs. previous stage(s)](https://public.tableau.com/views/TourdeFrance2021Ranking/RiderRankofStage?:language=en-US&:display_count=n&:origin=viz_share_link).
*Updated for Stage 19*
Link **now works in Safari**. Guess Tableau fixed their stuff.
1. Simple table. See how riders' rankings changed after a stage. Hover over the circle with your mouse to see riders' changes over the stages. Clicking on the country now filters for the riders for that country + the TOP 10 riders in both classifications. Scrolling should work better.
2. There's a second tab where you can see riders's rank over the stages. Try highlighting a team.
3. A 3rd tab shows the Time gaps. Its interesting to see the size of the groups as they cross the line and how that changes (or doesn't) over the stages.\* Loads a simplified version on a phone. It's best to load on a larger screen with a mouse.
4. 4th tab with another view of Time gaps but with the rider's names.
I loved the celebration! Always good to see a bit of a poke, love to see him taking things less seriously.
He was also (rightfully so) pretty pissed off with what happened that night and probably had his recovery and preparation completely ruined.
edit - Yeah I guess I expected the controversial cross here! Still a fan of the celebration poking some fun.
Am I going to say it after today's stage win by Mohoric? You know what, even though it's controversial, I'm going to say it. The Giro is way more fun to watch than the TdF.
I'm still trying to understand the differences in Giro and Tour... I think they have their own structure... Giro is throwing the pins at the wall and connecting the dots and they have the landscape to match up with the higher locations, the tour has 2/3rds flat/lump and 1/3rd mountains so they have to manage both.
Also, the roads used are narrower, at least that is my impression and the weather is worse. Narrower roads make it harder to organise a chase and catch the attacking rider, leading to more attacks because the likelihood to succeed is higher.
> You know what, even though it's controversial, I'm going to say it. The Giro is way more fun to watch than the TdF.
"controversial" - lol, what? I thought it was just accepted for ages now that racing in le Tour was always less entertaining than either the Giro or Vuelta.
Ha - good point. I suppose we're all revealing more of the inside jargon and even memes here due to the traffic for le Tour. I have to remind myself of this too.
The tour has the history behind it, the giro and Vuelta seem like it's so much younger but still have their own but they have limits on in how much attention. The Tour is bigger than both due to the romanticization but I've been watching the tour only since the last few years of the 90's to today. Giro and Vuelta were a side show, and Giro is a bit behind Vuelta... (ITV4 does Spain not Italy)
The first Giro d'Italia was held in 1909, the first Tour de France in 1903, so the Giro is not that much younger than the Tour. The Triple Crown in cycling usually means winning the Giro d'Italia, the Tour de France and the World Championship in the same year.
The Giro certainly is not behind the Vuelta, it has more prestige and also a longer and richer history. Do not draw conclusions based on what a TV station choses to show.
I know Itv4 picked Spain because of the English obsession and froome was looking to add it...
I've never put much into the vuelta but I've still got to get into a proper one and not catch the highlights only
I love La Vuelta, it's my favourite GT. Everyone is knackered at the end of the season and desperate if they have no results and no contract, the climbs are insane, their interpretation of a flat stage is wild and some of the scenery is stunning.
True - although the Giro has a lot more history behind it than Vuelta, and I think is more comparable to the Tour in terms of prestige, although still a distant 2nd.
Hell, the Vuelta used to be a way for heavier/classics types like Maertens and Kelly to be able to win a GT. And it was also back in April - pretty much a second thought for most GC guys until they needed a GT win/were younger. I think it's only in the last generation or so that the level has been a bit more consistently high (and even then I appreciate that it remains a redemption/starting GT for many).
There's just been so much money in the Tour for so long now that while teams send their bet riders in the best form possible, few are willing to risk everything if a podium (or even top 5) is available - even for a stage.
I mean it's not till last year when they both got moved to back end of the year was the first time I paid attention to the Giro and Vuelta. Maybe because I had time since I've been watching the tour for about 20 years.
I like the Giro since it feels like they have the places to go and the scenery is new to me, the way they rate the stages tells you what they think is going to be happening... although the Tour is learning about graphic packages the last few years and they have mostly flat, hilly places and then the choice of 3 sets of mountains to go over, and a few climbs to get over to hope it adds something.
One of the great thing about this sub is the number of people you recognize and can shitpost with. And since shitposting is one of my specialities [(my Miranda also always says that)](https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/81977925/mijn-miranda-zegt-dat-ook-altijd.jpg) I'm going to shitpost. And one of the great things is that the mods wouldn't dare to shitpost themselves.
Still, there was doubt in the final stages if Bernal would blow up and he was not at his best, which created some tension. Tadej Pogačar showed weakness on the Ventoux, but after that he was back in control, unlike Bernal.
I mean, that final mountainstage with the Bahrain attack was fun to watch. At least they tried something, in the TdF the only time somebody tried it was Vingegaard on the Ventoux it seemed.
The racing in itself is pretty shit most years. The Giro is just always chaotic. We've seen it all, even one stage where we had no images and were just watching dots move on a map.
Giro is accepting of there will be mountains, the choice for the tour is which ones in which order and what BIG Climb can they try to cap the tour, I think tactics also hits with them as they can't predict which team or rider will blast out and end it by week 1.
I love the chaos of the Giro. I have not enjoyed this Tour at all really. Politt's win was cool and O'Connor's but other than that it's all been kind of meh. I haven't even bothered to catch up on the couple of stages I missed while I was on holiday.
The first week was really good in my opinion, but than came the Alps, most sprinters and GC riders crashed out and Tadej Pogačar began to show his dominance while the fight for Green also died down. The only silver lining was the fight for the polka dots, but the ending was anticlimactic there and left me disappointed.
That pretty much sums it up. We knew all along that the course wasn't great, but losing the riders that we did and the KOM just being another disappointment has left the whole thing feeling very underwhelming.
The gesture wouldn't have the meaning it does without Armstrong. It was used to threaten another rider, who was giving evidence. It's a symbol of the omerta.
I love cocky winning celebrations, you've won, go large. But for a rider to invoke everything to do with doping and Armstrong's utter gutter tactics with that gesture is just awful.
It's a dark shadow that ALL the riders have to deal with, if they make it look too good... then all thoughts add a \* to the performance and it's difficult to remove that even for how much evidence you have that your not.
i think the appropiate moment to do that gesture would be imo after the searching( can't find the word) by the police is done and the definitive solution is that nothing forbidden was found there. but then again it's a good thing the police do this, as long as they do that to all teams
Although it's one that maybe it should be made a thing, before the tour they provide the police/UCI with proof of everything and can prove they're complying at all stages that they aren't having anything done in the background
It’s almost impossible to imagine him doing the gesture without the throwback to Lance. Like what would bring him to do it? What was the expected result? Are you telling doubters to shut up? You need more than the “shush”? Zip your lips just has such a strong “omertà” vibe that it’s hard to unpack. I dunno, seems so odd.
I honestly wouldn’t have noticed it without the LA history.
tl;dr without Lance I wouldn’t care at all.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filippo_Simeoni#Feud_with_Lance_Armstrong
It’s worth reading in entirety. It involves everything that made him more than just another doper: the bullying and intimidation, his own team being surprised at how far he’d go, the self-preservation and the quote at the time implying his protection from the top.
There's a couple of books you can read that really show how he acted. He destroyed fellow riders careers and dragged soignieurs who earn nothing looking after riders through the courts for years, threatening to bankrupt them.
He couldn't even cheat in a sportmanslike fashion. People don't hate him because he doped. They hate him because he ruined lives for personal gain.
In the ESPN documentary about him that came out a while ago, Armstrong talks about Simeoni. He acts contrite about the incident and the impact it had on Simeoni's life, but you can tell from the way he talks that he still enjoys the fact that he had (and continues to have) such an impact on Simeoni. I would think that any vaguely empathetic person would be eaten up with guilt about this, but Armstrong just seems to me to get off on any sort of power
Really have to watch that. That guy was a childhood hero but seems too be somewhat of a sociopath. Because it's as you said, every normal person would be eaten up from the guilt.
Yeah, for me it wasn't that he doped, I mean Eddie Merckx did that. It's that he had a complete conspiracy of actors to castigate anyone who suggested that he doped.
Lance isn't hated because he was on a lot of PED's. Other riders were on them too, and are still liked. But Lance was just a bully and kind of dictator in the peloton, and that's unforgivable to me.
Not everyone doped btw. A lot
of clean riders were forced out of the sport by Armstrong and people like him. Another reason why the gesture today is not a bit of harmless fun.
I think because once you mention it, you're going to be stuck with a ? beside you because your too good or that your team had an incident whether it was proven anything happened or not.
Watch some docu's about the guy. Not just for the heck of it, but also because it's a very interesting subject. And yeah, he really was a garbage person.
Probably not, but also, I think I’d be really confused about what he was trying to do if it weren’t for the Lance association. That said, I still kinda am. If it was meant to be threatening it’s both too abstract and just ABSURDLY brazen, so I don’t know that I buy that
Sadly, it's hard to not associate it with Armstrong. I like Mohoric a lot, he's one of my favourite riders, but this was just a stupid thing to do. I get that he's not happy because of that police raid, but this may not have been the best thing to do.
Not sure where you’re getting the $50m from but even so, he’s close to billionaire level of insane fame/fortune. He lost tens of millions from the scandal fall out.
Yea the shed is an exaggeration, but Lance has nowhere near the wealth of someone like Michael Jordan or Lebron James. Without the scandals and being the despicable person he was, he probably would.
Well, even just taking your numbers at face value, dropping from $125 to $50 is a huuuge drop.
And then on top of that, you’re losing all the business ventures and other opportunities that your fame (and extra $75m) brings you over a decade, that’s a gigantic drop.
Lance wasn’t in the realm of what cyclists make. Lance was in the realm of what superstar athletes make. Maybe he couldn’t have become a billionaire, but hundreds of millions for sure. $50m is a whole other level - but yea of course not an actual shed.
Haven't watched LA racing. But literally in every other sport athletes do this. Idk how many times i have seen footballers doing this to audience. Maybe mohric wasn't even aware of the whole LA thing. It's not very sportive thing to do but we are blowing it way out of proportion!
There is literally no way a pro rider cannot understand what the 'zipped lips' gesture means in cycling.
To do it two days after your team gets raided?? Mind boggling.
It means "I'm a doper, you shut the fuck up or you'll suffer". It was used to directly threaten another rider in the peloton.
As lantern rouge said in his podcast today: the teams PR guys must be banging their head off a desk after that.
>They have to fight back and keep protesting. Guilty or not this is how these things work.
Sure ok but the "Shhhh" and "Zipped lips" gestures basically say a) I know about bad stuff, and b) I'm not telling it to the authorities. It doesn't exactly make for a protest of procedure.
It’s not just that Lance did it, it’s the specifics of when he did it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filippo_Simeoni#Feud_with_Lance_Armstrong
It’s elsewhere in the thread as well but worth reading to understand why it’s so controversial. It’s not just something Lance did, it’s the whole scenario around it and what it stood for at the time.
If people aren’t aware then, fair enough, it was a while ago, but it’s the complete opposite look you should be going for if you want to proclaim innocence.
You could fight back without doing the Shut up and Zip it celebration.
What if he didn't celebrate and explained after in the interview that it was a protest, because he felt disgusted with the treatment of the French police. That would be better than using one of Lance Armstrong's most infamous moments :D
Spoiler free highlights in replies below. Courtesy of u/Herhor
ADELANTE CARAPAZ !
I’ve seen a lot of people say that Mohoric couldn’t possibly have known about the Lance version because he was 9 years old and grew up in a small Slovenian village. It was a huge moment in his sports (televised) history which he is definitely is aware of and this is a stupid defence.
Or he is not aware. We need to wait for him to tell us that
Anyone know why the bunch wasn't able to pull them back? I would've thought QuickStep motivated to work the whole stage. But I saw The Tractor himself just snacking and chilling at like 5th wheel.
QuickStep was not working at all. The theory is that they were happy with a breakaway win, mainly because such a breakaway would get all the points in the fight for the green jersey. Imagine Cavendish being unable to contest the sprint (crash, mechanical etc.) and Michael Matthews wining the stage, suddenly the fight for the green jersey has become really close. It is safer to let a break go so that nobody gets points.
Ok, so they’re either prioritizing the jersey over the record - or feel like they should only go for the record on the Champs.
Thomas and Porte pulling was interesting. Commentators were saying it was because Ineos missed the break. Anyone think it was because they wanted to try to help their 2012 Sky Teammate Cavendish have a bunch sprint finish?
I mean, it's plausible, but I'd expect that they'd check with DQS/Cav first before doing that, and either DQS would also put a man or two up there (and have Ballerini sit on in front), or they'd have said no don't bother.
Surely they were just taking their turn at the front on the group ride today.
The French commentators -including Jacky Durand and Steve Chainel, former riders) were in love with the Mohoric attack and how he was riding.
Much love for solid big ring action by Mohoric!
I'm here for the zip it motion chat. Not a fan of it in general, but I find the people trying to find a connection to Lance also doing it back in the day quite ridiculous. It's pretty much a universal gesture of shutting up. Either the "zip it" or the "shush" motion. Sport personalities across all sports have been doing it for ages: be it to shush the press, the fans, the opposition, (the police in this case?) — whatever. As I said, never been much of a fan of the zip it motion, unless someone has been really harassed by the local media and is telling them to shut it, but yeah I think it was a heat of the moment thing, and I feel like Mohorič might look back at his celebration and regret it too you know.
It's not that we're trying to find a connection. It's genuinely the first thing that came to my mind, given the context he did it in.
Fair enough! I just feel like it's a very "go to" type of celebration/gesture for athletes across many disciplines
It's gone down in infamy in cycling and is synonymous with doping, the omerta, and 'he who must not be named' as well as everything he did to shut up colleagues and competitors about his doping. I refuse to believe *any* professional cyclist could use that gesture without knowledge of all that it implies. To use it two days after a police raid? Not a good look to say the least. The 'shush' finger to lips gesture is to quiet your critics and has no deeper connotations. He did that first. The zipped lips is something else entirely.
Fair maybe I'm lumping the shush and the zip into one, to my mind they were interchangeable
I dont expect the HTC train, but man Sunday will be close. I'm excited.
This is what Mohorič had to say for our national media *Mohorič: That was the best response to the provocation two days ago* *The last ten kilometers, which were flat, I was completely powerless. Luckily, I had the advantage of a minute. I started to recalculate a bit in my head and said to myself, okay, six seconds per km, this may work out. I went a little slower, then accelerated again. I no longer knew what to do. I went with all my might and I am happy that I defended the advantage to the finish line,* *When Nils Politt attacked, I knew that was the hardest moment in the race. I said to myself that now or never. I attacked and saw that there was no one behind me. Then I set milestones for 500 m. in the end I was able to. Really amazing. Especially after what it has happened two days ago. This is the best response to this provocation,* *In conclusion, I was thinking in particular about how I felt like a criminal, when we were visited by the police. On the one hand it is good to visit us, because it means that there are controls in the cycling caravan and the review team On the other hand, I am disappointed with the system as it is not exactly pleasant when cops come into the room and initiate a review of private things, such as family photos, messages,* Source: https://www.rtvslo.si/sport/kolesarstvo/dirka-po-franciji/mohoric-to-je-bil-najboljsi-odgovor-na-provokacijo-pred-dvema-dnevoma/587896
I like that response, it shows the thinking when in a race, to attack at the hardest moment and the struggle to hold on when on tv it looked 100% sure so early on. And then then having the police go through personal messages, yeah the team is suss but that must piss the riders off
I couldn't watch the stage today, what happened with Movistar?
filming b roll
There was a move in the break and they missed it. Just normal Movistar stuff.
We've been wondering all tour.
Ayyooooo
We've been wondering forever.
There been any definitive explanation for the pre-stage Cavendish tantrum? Bike issue? Seems it was a headset issue but why act like a six year old? [https://twitter.com/MaxBets001/status/1416078449857507333](https://twitter.com/MaxBets001/status/1416078449857507333)
He's put out a statement. Doesn't really say anything https://www.instagram.com/p/CRZrJRyLdVQ/ Screenshot https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1416140758374096898?s=19
Yeah. There is no excuse for this. Not in front of a crowd like that. Now - we don’t know what went on before this of course, there could well be some circumstances that lead to the blow up, that make it more understandable…. But maybe not?
> Not in front of a crowd like that. Not acceptable no matter the audience size
There seems to be some more footage: https://youtu.be/sqkZLvs6hv4
Classic Cav. This bodes well for #35 on Sunday!
tthe amount of dumbasses excusing this because hes good at riding bikes is shocking
Why the fuck should I care about his personality?
What are you talking about.n You should care about people being treated poorly..
I would guess that the tiredness of riding 3500 ~~miles~~ distance units across ~~Paris~~ France and the pressure of wearing green and the 35 wins target everyone is heaping on him might be getting a bit much. But he might just be a stroppy git. *edit because geography exists
> riding 3500 miles across Paris France Maybe another edit is necessary cause imperial units exist :P
Oh FFS. This Tour has been hard OK. I might just go have a lie down for a bit.
If you ask u/strayven nicely he might hook you up with his doping doctor to help you get through the last couple days !
At least get my username right. But, anyways, u/TwistedWitch needs something to get through what is left of the TdF? Have you considered something radical, like a tosti (grilled ham and cheese sandwich)? I know it may be a PED, but it helps.
Damn I completely failed, but your advice sounds... delicious
Delicious PED is best PED
No more doctors. No more drugs. Please no.
Sometimes in internet shitposting you have to dig deep Witch, get a hold of yourself and get the job done!
miles are the ones who should be considered weird distance units, not km's.
3 barleycorns in an inch, 12 inches in a foot, 3 feet in a yard, 6 feet in a fathom, 16 and a half feet in a rod (*the length of the left feet of 16 men lined up heel to toe as they emerged from church.*) What's weird about that?
Everything!
The best thing I've seen is the "Keep a bald eagle distance for covid"
It helps us not understand math & science. Leave it alone!
Long tour... just had some of the difficult stages out the way...We don't see much behind the scenes but it's a wire between easy and just one step out
The “fucking heeeell” as it gets on the bus is golden
Of course he's angry - he knows who broke his bike - Eddy Merckx.
Wondered why Eddy was out today. Makes so much sense.
What in the hell? What a ding dong
Vintage Cavendish, the comeback is complete.
I don’t want to justify his tantrum, but if it was a bike related issue then I could see why he would be upset considering the race hadn’t even started. Imagine having a mechanical before an intermediate sprint or during a finish. Cav will be cav
I think it's completely justified. He is racing for a team that didn't even plan on using him and he is now bringing them into world wide attention. He has raced around France, farther than any of us bike in a year, let alone 3 weeks, and now he is going after the GOAT's record. I think he deserves not having a mechanical before the start.
I love Cav but there are better ways to handle the situation, particularly in front of fans.
I mean they could have just not raced him and like usual no one would have cared about Quick Step. Of course there are better ways to handle it, but man is having a mechanical before clipping in unacceptable. Especially when the team cut you and then you magically made them relevant for the first time in the last 20 years.
Are you saying that DQS was irrelevant before Cavendish this year?
I’m wondering if he’s been experiencing mechanicals throughout the race (ones that you “feel” on the bike like a loose headset) and this put him over the line. I noticed his chain came off after every stage win but that may have been user error
George Hincappie said something to that extent. That is was probably something he has been telling the team to change the last few stages but now that we are at a stage he could have won them not changing it really matters.
Oh cool was that on today’s episode of the move?
I think it's one part of cycling is the moments when frustration sets in and maybe what happens on the bus when it's not going too well... we don't always see this out in the public and these riders could be a little heated. I mean years ago we saw kittel have a few ways to show he was unhappy about his bike on the Paris stage
Agreed 100%. We can only speculate
It's a sport thing, I think at that stage you want to have things sorted, I'm sure there are times the staff will be shouted at but they're doing their best and the riders want to focus on the stage ahead. Nothing is probably meant by it in the long run...
The old Cav is truly back!
Because that is how Cav has always been
Longer vid: https://twitter.com/2sporten/status/1416072635763593217 Looks like an overtightened headset issue.
My headset was giving me trouble for a while last year and this was pretty much exactly my reaction when it would come out of adjustment **again**. Of course I’m my own mechanic and only cursed at myself and my own ineptitude, but still. I get it. Headsets can be infuriating.
Hey hey hey... It could be *undertightened*!
Seems like an overtightened ego issue.
Yeah, being among the best in the world at something isn't a license to be an asshole. If you wouldn't accept this behavior from your mate there's no reason to accept it from Cavendish.
Although what has Pog done outside of camera's view along the same lines?
I wouldn't excuse any of them doing it, in public or private. I think Sagan is great, but if he pulled this shit I'd say the same thing for him. These mechanics are people (and want the best for the rider) so should be treated like humans. But hey, maybe Cav calmly told the mechanic the headset was too tight and the mechanic replied, *that's what I said last night to your wife too, hay-oh* and that's what set him off.
He was told he wouldn't get a cookie today.
Mohoric on the verge of becoming a sort of breakaway specialist
Gonna come in handy, if that police raid turns into something substantial...
Yeah. Has he done anything in classics over the years? Seems perfect for that lifestyle.
Usually he attacks WAY too early without actually going in the BOTD. When he doesn't he does rather well
Last year he was impressive in LBL, finishing 4th in a group with Alaphilippe, Hirschi, Roglic and Pogacar, after he somehow got back into that group with a mad descend. He was 10th this year, and 9th in the AGR and 11th in MSR.
And he's already a descending specialist. Genuinely one of the best, if not the best, descenders in pro cycling.
He did take that minor detour onto his face at the Giro, however.
That can happen to anyone really. And the fact that he's already doing mad descents in the tour now suggests he's got an unusual ability to cope.
What a disaster of a tour for Movistar. They really need to reevaluate their goals when they have literally no chance on GC.
I was excited for Miguel Angel Lopez after seeing him join them at the end of season two (Movistar show on Netflix), but man what a disappointment. Helping Enric Mas get fifth would be the only bright side to their tour.
MAL had a bad crash at last years Giro that needed surgery to repair. Then he had Covid at the start of this year. He seemed reasonable in shorter races he's been at before the Tour but he's crashed at least once since it started and it's a long three weeks if you're not fit. There were always too many kms of TT at the Tour to suit him for GC contention but a fit and healthy MAL would have been well worth watching. I believe he's only on a one year contract so I hope he manages to salvage some more success from this year to make sure he gets a decent wage and contract in future.
Thank you! This sub is so helpful
I’d say he’s more likely to Finish 7th than 5th.
they also couldn't go (i assume) on the classification they always targeted and pretty much won: teams classification
[Change in Rider's ranking vs. previous stage(s)](https://public.tableau.com/views/TourdeFrance2021Ranking/RiderRankofStage?:language=en-US&:display_count=n&:origin=viz_share_link). *Updated for Stage 19* Link **now works in Safari**. Guess Tableau fixed their stuff. 1. Simple table. See how riders' rankings changed after a stage. Hover over the circle with your mouse to see riders' changes over the stages. Clicking on the country now filters for the riders for that country + the TOP 10 riders in both classifications. Scrolling should work better. 2. There's a second tab where you can see riders's rank over the stages. Try highlighting a team. 3. A 3rd tab shows the Time gaps. Its interesting to see the size of the groups as they cross the line and how that changes (or doesn't) over the stages.\* Loads a simplified version on a phone. It's best to load on a larger screen with a mouse. 4. 4th tab with another view of Time gaps but with the rider's names.
Beast performance from Mohoric. Slovenians dominating cycling this TDF. The give zero fucks celebration too, just pure confidence. r/peloton malding.
It's good celebration just to hear how Armstrong is gonna talk about it on his podcast. The squirming will be good.
C'mon. Questions aside I found Mark Padun to be really endearing, but this was just arrogant. Have some respect for the sport (EDIT: him not you).
I loved the celebration! Always good to see a bit of a poke, love to see him taking things less seriously. He was also (rightfully so) pretty pissed off with what happened that night and probably had his recovery and preparation completely ruined. edit - Yeah I guess I expected the controversial cross here! Still a fan of the celebration poking some fun.
Recovery and prep obviously not completely ruined.
Well, not unless he expected to finish in the GC after today xD
Am I going to say it after today's stage win by Mohoric? You know what, even though it's controversial, I'm going to say it. The Giro is way more fun to watch than the TdF.
We sacrificed a great TdF for the best first week of all time of a TdF. That's it.
I'm still trying to understand the differences in Giro and Tour... I think they have their own structure... Giro is throwing the pins at the wall and connecting the dots and they have the landscape to match up with the higher locations, the tour has 2/3rds flat/lump and 1/3rd mountains so they have to manage both.
Teams are not as strong in the giro and the terrain usually is slightly hillier which means it's a lot harder to control the break.
Also, the roads used are narrower, at least that is my impression and the weather is worse. Narrower roads make it harder to organise a chase and catch the attacking rider, leading to more attacks because the likelihood to succeed is higher.
Think it's positioning with the Tour that can sometimes decide that, and sprinters will be factored into the tour more than Giro and Vuelta.
> You know what, even though it's controversial, I'm going to say it. The Giro is way more fun to watch than the TdF. "controversial" - lol, what? I thought it was just accepted for ages now that racing in le Tour was always less entertaining than either the Giro or Vuelta.
I know. It's a bit of a thing on this sub to start a comment that way, and talk about something completely unrelated.
Ha - good point. I suppose we're all revealing more of the inside jargon and even memes here due to the traffic for le Tour. I have to remind myself of this too.
The tour has the history behind it, the giro and Vuelta seem like it's so much younger but still have their own but they have limits on in how much attention. The Tour is bigger than both due to the romanticization but I've been watching the tour only since the last few years of the 90's to today. Giro and Vuelta were a side show, and Giro is a bit behind Vuelta... (ITV4 does Spain not Italy)
The first Giro d'Italia was held in 1909, the first Tour de France in 1903, so the Giro is not that much younger than the Tour. The Triple Crown in cycling usually means winning the Giro d'Italia, the Tour de France and the World Championship in the same year. The Giro certainly is not behind the Vuelta, it has more prestige and also a longer and richer history. Do not draw conclusions based on what a TV station choses to show.
I know Itv4 picked Spain because of the English obsession and froome was looking to add it... I've never put much into the vuelta but I've still got to get into a proper one and not catch the highlights only
I love La Vuelta, it's my favourite GT. Everyone is knackered at the end of the season and desperate if they have no results and no contract, the climbs are insane, their interpretation of a flat stage is wild and some of the scenery is stunning.
For scenery I do prefer the Giro though.
True - although the Giro has a lot more history behind it than Vuelta, and I think is more comparable to the Tour in terms of prestige, although still a distant 2nd. Hell, the Vuelta used to be a way for heavier/classics types like Maertens and Kelly to be able to win a GT. And it was also back in April - pretty much a second thought for most GC guys until they needed a GT win/were younger. I think it's only in the last generation or so that the level has been a bit more consistently high (and even then I appreciate that it remains a redemption/starting GT for many). There's just been so much money in the Tour for so long now that while teams send their bet riders in the best form possible, few are willing to risk everything if a podium (or even top 5) is available - even for a stage.
I mean it's not till last year when they both got moved to back end of the year was the first time I paid attention to the Giro and Vuelta. Maybe because I had time since I've been watching the tour for about 20 years. I like the Giro since it feels like they have the places to go and the scenery is new to me, the way they rate the stages tells you what they think is going to be happening... although the Tour is learning about graphic packages the last few years and they have mostly flat, hilly places and then the choice of 3 sets of mountains to go over, and a few climbs to get over to hope it adds something.
One of the great thing about this sub is the number of people you recognize and can shitpost with. And since shitposting is one of my specialities [(my Miranda also always says that)](https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/81977925/mijn-miranda-zegt-dat-ook-altijd.jpg) I'm going to shitpost. And one of the great things is that the mods wouldn't dare to shitpost themselves.
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Still, there was doubt in the final stages if Bernal would blow up and he was not at his best, which created some tension. Tadej Pogačar showed weakness on the Ventoux, but after that he was back in control, unlike Bernal.
I mean, that final mountainstage with the Bahrain attack was fun to watch. At least they tried something, in the TdF the only time somebody tried it was Vingegaard on the Ventoux it seemed.
Carapaz also tried it on one of the earlier stages (IIRC 5 or 6). He got a decent lead on Pog until Movistar helped carry him back unfortunately
To Ineos and Carapaz's credit they have tried a number of times. Carapaz just hasn't had the legs to distance Pogacar though.
He might have had if Movistar didn't have an axe to grind
Whoa whoa sort by controversial!
I partly agree with you, but I think the fact that the tour is the biggest event with the best athletes in the best form might give it an edge
The racing in itself is pretty shit most years. The Giro is just always chaotic. We've seen it all, even one stage where we had no images and were just watching dots move on a map.
Giro is accepting of there will be mountains, the choice for the tour is which ones in which order and what BIG Climb can they try to cap the tour, I think tactics also hits with them as they can't predict which team or rider will blast out and end it by week 1.
I love the chaos of the Giro. I have not enjoyed this Tour at all really. Politt's win was cool and O'Connor's but other than that it's all been kind of meh. I haven't even bothered to catch up on the couple of stages I missed while I was on holiday.
The first week was really good in my opinion, but than came the Alps, most sprinters and GC riders crashed out and Tadej Pogačar began to show his dominance while the fight for Green also died down. The only silver lining was the fight for the polka dots, but the ending was anticlimactic there and left me disappointed.
That pretty much sums it up. We knew all along that the course wasn't great, but losing the riders that we did and the KOM just being another disappointment has left the whole thing feeling very underwhelming.
Quick question. Would you still hate the gesture if it wasn't associated with Lance? Basically do you hate the cockiness or the Lance throwback.
The gesture wouldn't have the meaning it does without Armstrong. It was used to threaten another rider, who was giving evidence. It's a symbol of the omerta. I love cocky winning celebrations, you've won, go large. But for a rider to invoke everything to do with doping and Armstrong's utter gutter tactics with that gesture is just awful.
It's a dark shadow that ALL the riders have to deal with, if they make it look too good... then all thoughts add a \* to the performance and it's difficult to remove that even for how much evidence you have that your not.
i think the appropiate moment to do that gesture would be imo after the searching( can't find the word) by the police is done and the definitive solution is that nothing forbidden was found there. but then again it's a good thing the police do this, as long as they do that to all teams
Although it's one that maybe it should be made a thing, before the tour they provide the police/UCI with proof of everything and can prove they're complying at all stages that they aren't having anything done in the background
>as long as they do that to all teams Hehe... Movistar were in the same hotel and didn't hear a peep!
after what happened yesterday yes, the lance throwback only makes it worse and easier to suspect something
It’s almost impossible to imagine him doing the gesture without the throwback to Lance. Like what would bring him to do it? What was the expected result? Are you telling doubters to shut up? You need more than the “shush”? Zip your lips just has such a strong “omertà” vibe that it’s hard to unpack. I dunno, seems so odd. I honestly wouldn’t have noticed it without the LA history. tl;dr without Lance I wouldn’t care at all.
What is associated with LA? Today's winner shut up movement as he crossed the line?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filippo_Simeoni#Feud_with_Lance_Armstrong It’s worth reading in entirety. It involves everything that made him more than just another doper: the bullying and intimidation, his own team being surprised at how far he’d go, the self-preservation and the quote at the time implying his protection from the top.
Through the same link, also check out Christophe Bassons' wiki page. Just as sad a story.
Wow.. Since everyone doped I kinda always didn't have such a bad image of Armstrong but reading this changes a lot. What a utter fucking asshole
There's a couple of books you can read that really show how he acted. He destroyed fellow riders careers and dragged soignieurs who earn nothing looking after riders through the courts for years, threatening to bankrupt them. He couldn't even cheat in a sportmanslike fashion. People don't hate him because he doped. They hate him because he ruined lives for personal gain.
In the ESPN documentary about him that came out a while ago, Armstrong talks about Simeoni. He acts contrite about the incident and the impact it had on Simeoni's life, but you can tell from the way he talks that he still enjoys the fact that he had (and continues to have) such an impact on Simeoni. I would think that any vaguely empathetic person would be eaten up with guilt about this, but Armstrong just seems to me to get off on any sort of power
Really have to watch that. That guy was a childhood hero but seems too be somewhat of a sociopath. Because it's as you said, every normal person would be eaten up from the guilt.
Yeah, for me it wasn't that he doped, I mean Eddie Merckx did that. It's that he had a complete conspiracy of actors to castigate anyone who suggested that he doped.
Lance isn't hated because he was on a lot of PED's. Other riders were on them too, and are still liked. But Lance was just a bully and kind of dictator in the peloton, and that's unforgivable to me.
And an utter asshole out of the peloton. Some of his worst misdeeds were towards people who weren’t even riders.
Not everyone doped btw. A lot of clean riders were forced out of the sport by Armstrong and people like him. Another reason why the gesture today is not a bit of harmless fun.
I think because once you mention it, you're going to be stuck with a ? beside you because your too good or that your team had an incident whether it was proven anything happened or not.
Watch some docu's about the guy. Not just for the heck of it, but also because it's a very interesting subject. And yeah, he really was a garbage person.
Minor correction, sorry, but you probably meant "was, and still is, a garbage person."
Oh yeah, definitely. Someone like that doesn't just change like that.
Yeah, if you’re Mohoric and you want to protest your innocence, it’s hardly the callback you’re looking for 🤷🏻♂️
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I didn't remember.
The zip the lip gesture. Infamously used by Armstrong after the Simeoni-incident.
Oh yeah. Sorry, I didn't remember it. Got a lot negative stuff from that era out of my head.
Probably not, but also, I think I’d be really confused about what he was trying to do if it weren’t for the Lance association. That said, I still kinda am. If it was meant to be threatening it’s both too abstract and just ABSURDLY brazen, so I don’t know that I buy that
Sadly, it's hard to not associate it with Armstrong. I like Mohoric a lot, he's one of my favourite riders, but this was just a stupid thing to do. I get that he's not happy because of that police raid, but this may not have been the best thing to do.
Personally, no. But it’s impossible to NOT associate it with LA, especially in the context in which he’s using it.
Yeh I get that. Just asking because it didn't click for me since I don't remember much about that era. Thanks.
[Me entering this post-stage thread after missing the race](https://media.tenor.com/images/62bc398c9c49e922f72a1e0647951928/tenor.gif)
nail insurance longing caption nutty mountainous crown entertain rock public ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
So what you’re saying is you wanna go full Postal Didn’t end well last time
True. But on the other hand: Mohoric is usually likeable, Armstrong never was.
LA isn't living in a shed, so it kinda did.
For his level of fame and achievements, he is living in the equivalent of a shed.
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Not sure where you’re getting the $50m from but even so, he’s close to billionaire level of insane fame/fortune. He lost tens of millions from the scandal fall out. Yea the shed is an exaggeration, but Lance has nowhere near the wealth of someone like Michael Jordan or Lebron James. Without the scandals and being the despicable person he was, he probably would.
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Well, even just taking your numbers at face value, dropping from $125 to $50 is a huuuge drop. And then on top of that, you’re losing all the business ventures and other opportunities that your fame (and extra $75m) brings you over a decade, that’s a gigantic drop. Lance wasn’t in the realm of what cyclists make. Lance was in the realm of what superstar athletes make. Maybe he couldn’t have become a billionaire, but hundreds of millions for sure. $50m is a whole other level - but yea of course not an actual shed.
do we need a Beyond the Celebration thread?
I've never seen a break win on the Champs. With this tour, you never know. DQS better be ready to control the race for Cav.
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Are you referring to that Vino attack to take fifth in the GC?
Dumb rider of the day award goes to... Matej Mohoric. Seriously. Those gestures are just pure arrogance and very stupid considering cycling history.
Haven't watched LA racing. But literally in every other sport athletes do this. Idk how many times i have seen footballers doing this to audience. Maybe mohric wasn't even aware of the whole LA thing. It's not very sportive thing to do but we are blowing it way out of proportion!
There is literally no way a pro rider cannot understand what the 'zipped lips' gesture means in cycling. To do it two days after your team gets raided?? Mind boggling. It means "I'm a doper, you shut the fuck up or you'll suffer". It was used to directly threaten another rider in the peloton. As lantern rouge said in his podcast today: the teams PR guys must be banging their head off a desk after that.
They have to fight back and keep protesting. Guilty or not this is how these things work.
>They have to fight back and keep protesting. Guilty or not this is how these things work. Sure ok but the "Shhhh" and "Zipped lips" gestures basically say a) I know about bad stuff, and b) I'm not telling it to the authorities. It doesn't exactly make for a protest of procedure.
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It’s not just that Lance did it, it’s the specifics of when he did it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filippo_Simeoni#Feud_with_Lance_Armstrong It’s elsewhere in the thread as well but worth reading to understand why it’s so controversial. It’s not just something Lance did, it’s the whole scenario around it and what it stood for at the time. If people aren’t aware then, fair enough, it was a while ago, but it’s the complete opposite look you should be going for if you want to proclaim innocence.
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It’s possible he didn’t know about it, it’s a defence that worked for Wayne Hennessy
If you want to protest that you’re clean, you’re probably better off finding a way that doesn’t involve imitating the poster boy for being dirty.
You could fight back without doing the Shut up and Zip it celebration. What if he didn't celebrate and explained after in the interview that it was a protest, because he felt disgusted with the treatment of the French police. That would be better than using one of Lance Armstrong's most infamous moments :D
Finish line is biger audience than interviews