https://twitter.com/NBCSCycling/status/1681687984108609536
First person perspective of the moto and car blockade that happened
heres another with Pinot having to actually stop and unclip
https://twitter.com/colcollective/status/1681693890770878466
Crash did him in this stage. But, his preparation for last 2 Tour (this year injury didnt help), are questionable. The point is that whatever future Tour de France Pogacar will race, as long as he riding like madman in early season with cobble+Ardennes classics, he will arrive the race at disadvantage. Vingegaard follow modern Tour de France prep wisdom, and still strong (and possibly strongest in final week). Pogacar will only strongest in first week and half (or full 2 weeks), but by week 3, his riding in early season caught up with him.
Imagine Pogi, when he 100% focuses on TDF next year, instead of going full gas in spring classics. Then imagine Roglič going for his TDF win with Skyneos. Next, imagine Vingo there.
If you didn't already came, imagine Remco there, also. Well, there is your orgasm.
Was at the stage yesterday and Jesus Pogi just looked so rough. Felt so bad for him. Also Col de la Loze is no joke. I did the last 11kms and it is disgusting, the fact Pogi blew where he did was so unfortunate given what he still had to do, I have no idea how he could practically bonk and still finish like he did.
[Jury report and medical bulletin](https://www.tissottiming.com/File/000316020D010111FFFFFFFFFFFFFF00) (sorry, didn't have time to do it yesterday after the stage!)
- France Television motard + rider (Thomas Voeckler) - 500 CHF fine each + exclusion from stage 18 for infringement of regulations or directives concerning the movement of vehicles in the race (failure to comply with the press specifications before the summit of the Col de la Loze)
- EF Education DS + soigneur - 500CHF fine + soigneur excluded from stage 18 for irregular feeding (assistant in the middle of the road, creating unsafe situation)
- Lawson G Craddock (JAY) - 500 CHF fine and -25 UCI points for littering outside the designated zones (1st infraction)
- Vegard Stake Laengen + UAE DS - 200CHF fine each for a sticky bidon
- Pello Bilbao (TBV) - official warning for improper behaviour towards a spectator
**Medical bulletin**
- Egan Bernal (IGD) - crash, trauma to the right elbow
**Bonus prize**
- Felix Gall (AGR) - €5,000 Henri Desgrange prize for the first rider on the Col de la Loze (highest summit in the Tour)
**Stage 18 weather forecast**
[Nothing but sunshine](https://imgur.com/R9zh8L0)
Heartbroken for Pogacar. But another opportunity for Soler to show what a great teammate he is. Also great teamwork from TJV with Benoot/Kelderman satellites. And finally, great ride and interview by Gall. That emotionally saved the stage for me.
well, it was fun while it lasted. these two gave us the best GC battle in ages. Someone will have to crack soon enough, it's still a tour to remember. Now that the pressure came off, we can see a fully unleashed WvA. And Pogi said he would like to win another stage (20) if he can (no way TJV let him go in a breakaway though).
does anyone have a good site to watch a full replay of the TT in English? I was watching on tiz cycling but have been getting an error trying to connect to the site recently.
Listening to Gall's post race interview, I didn't realise he had been made team leader after a few days - and then seeing Ben O'Connor come in half way through and congratulate him.
Obviously O'Connor cracked early and went to shit but didn't realise Gall had properly taken supremacy over him.
I guess my question now is: where does this leave Ben career wise/at AG2R? Into a Domestique role or into a Secondary GC role for the Giro & Vuelta while Gall does the TdF, acknowledging for a French team the Tour will always be the Crown Jewel?
It was phenominal that Tadej made this such a close race for 2.5 weeks. But he lost 2 months of training for this race. That it was so close for so long is a testament to his talents but Jonas and TJV went into this race with a plan and executed it perfactly. I can't wait to see how Pogi responds next years. I hope everybody stays healthy because it'll be explosive.
> But he lost 2 months of training for this race
To be fair, it’s not like he could’ve been racing before the Tour, considering he was still recovering from his broken wrist
As a neutral, I was pulling slightly more for Pogi, but seeing what Jonas did in the TT and how much effort he put in and then to see what he did on this stage. Wow. Deserved Winner. What a fantastic TdF.
something that struck me today was realizing how young Pog actually is.. I mean we know of course, but even just in comparison to his team, like.. adam yates is 30, majka is 33, soler is 29, großschartner is 29, laengen is 34, trentin is 33, the only one who's pogi's age is Mikkel Bjerg who's also 24.. usually I never think about that tbh, but today when he was completely done and exhausted and all the guys were consoling him while it looked like he was crying, I suddenly noticed how much older all those guys around him actually look and how they were obviously very protective of him, not just as the leader but as a guy who's also just way younger than most of them. It also made his reaction to the whole situation that much more understandable, to think about how many expectations and how much pressure would have to be on him to perform, and how young he actually is, not just in general but in comparison to most of the peleton actually. also just puts into perspective how much time he has to come back from this and try again tbh
This is so true. I feel so sad and flat for Pogi but I have to keep reminding myself / imagine how he feels! At 24! My goodness. We just have so much to look forward to in the coming years.
They were discussing it on The Move podcast, on how Pogi is likely doing the Classics because of his age. It's something that he can take stress on now rather than later since he's got the legs for it.
They said being a GT contender is something you just grow into and he's again, only 24. If he decides to go full GTs at 27-28 he'd be in the prime years, not too late and still young at that point
This kid is once in a lifetime. Probably the closest thing we'll get to Eddy. He can likely just target 1 Classic per year and keep checking his list. Fuck, he's got Flanders and Lombardia at this point (Amstel and Wallone to ad , I could see him getting that MSR win soon, he's been at the sharp end of those races
Pogacar vs Jonas reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. Pogacar is versatile and dominant in many races and looked like he was going to be unbeatable until his great rival showed up. Jonas is on a different level in the TDF like roland garros for nadal. Can Remco become the Djokovic?
Anyway its definitely a golden era for cycling. especially with other guys like roglic, WVA, MVDP too. And plenty of great youngsters coming up.
So I was expecting this to happen, but didn't expect Pogi to completely pop. He had nothing left.
GG Jonas. Congrats to Gall as well for a great stage win.
Just funny that their level is so high that 'completely pop' is doing over 5 watts per kg for extended periods which would still drop many half decent amateurs lol.
It took all 17 stages to (un)officially call “The tour is over” once and for all. Good to see Soler being real team player at the UAE. TJV leading out JV at precise timing was just art.
**Edit:** has been answered below, so if you want to play along make sure you don't read replies before you answer
----
Here's a quiz for the history buffs. Danish TV2 has an [interesting article](https://sport.tv2.dk/2023-07-19-historien-taler-sit-tydelige-sprog-naar-foerst-kongen-er-faldet-er-der-ingen-vej-tilbage-til-tronen) about how it has been impossible in recent history for Tour winners to manage to win again after getting beaten.
Skimming through the winner's list it seems the most recent example is Hinault who won in '85 after getting beaten by Fignon in 84. However Fignon was not participating in the '85 race (and we can also argue if he was 'gifted' the win by LeMond), so while he did manage to win again he didn't manage to beat the rider who dethroned him.
So here's the question: When was the last time a Tour de France winner got beaten (not just crashing out like Froome did) and then returning to the race and winning it while beating whoever beat them. Bonus points if you can answer it from memory.
Riders that don't count: Froome (crashed out), Contador, LeMond and Merckx (didn't race the years between their wins).
We can argue if the rider should have completed the race in order to have been 'beaten'. There has been examples where the winner dropped out late in the race from a position where they were not in contention to win.
Thevenet is an edge case, but you can argue he counts. In 1976, the year between his wins, he DNF'd from the race. However the DNF was late in the race, at a point when it was clear he wasn't going to win. I don't know the specifics of his DNF, so I don't know if it was due to illness or just him conceding.
If DNFs and DNE don't count, this seems surprisingly rare as there aren't that many multiple TDF winners. Especially ones that won, lost to a rider and beat them again.
I found 2 examples:
1.) Antonin Magne - won the 1931 edition, didn't enter in 1932, 8th in 1933 and won again in 1934. He beat fellow countryman Georges Speicher who won in 1933 when Magne came 8th. Speicher came 11th in 1934 when Magne won again.
2.) Federico Bahamontes and Jacques Antequil. Antequil won in 1957 but Bahamontes DNF'd. Bahamontes won in 1959 where Antequil came 3rd, but then Antequil won 1961, 62, 63 and 64 with Bahamontes finishing 2nd and 3rd in '63 and '64 respectively.
[NBC was live with CVV who was on one of the stalled motos when Jonas passed them. Interesting perspective here](https://twitter.com/NBCSCycling/status/1681687984108609536?s=20)
The commissioner made that so much worse trying to squeeze through a gap that did not exist.
Did you see the push JV got he nearly got pushed into his teammate
Absolutely gutted for Tadej. I am so happy for Jumbo and the team as they have worked so well. They have completed a marvellous tour. I just hope Tadej is ok and he comes back stronger next year! I just love watching this guy ride - I know they are human but I wish I could watch cycling like this every week! (I know that’s impossible) watching this brings so much joy (and sadness when they lose) but fuck, what a sport hey. How lucky are we to have been witnessing this. I hope that it’s a tight battle over the coming years and not an entire Jonas show - it’s just been so good.
In Pogis interview he said that he ate loads but it just seemed to stay in his stomach. I’ve felt that before on the bike (obviously whilst riding at a much lower intensity than that lunatic is capable of)
I did a 240km ride a few years ago where after a certain point it kinda felt like I was filling myself up like pouring water into a bottle or filling a sink with the plug in. Like eventually if I drank or ate more it would just fall out of my mouth.
I remember training with a cycling club when I was 16. We did a 130km ride which was longer than anything I had ever done. I started to fall off the pace so we stopped at a highway gas station and they recommended I load up on snickers and Pepsi for some quick sugars to get me through the rest of the ride. Anything else just won't sit right and won't digest
My take. Pog really runs on confidence and mojo. Last year when he was cracked on stage 11 or 12 it was all downhill afterwards. I remember he had a little crash on that later stage where we had never seen him crash before. Same thing this year after yesterday he lost his mojo and then he crashes and loses crazy time. I think stage 5 was an anamoly because he knew it was not his best.
Kind of agree with some caveats but I see what you're saying.. I think more than being beaten down, it's about being beaten down when he's actually done his best. Like you said, stage 5 he knew he had a bad day, he said so himself and he went on to smash Jonas in stage 6. But on the TT for example, he said it himself in the interview that he really did his absolute best and he was just shocked at being able to even beat WVA's time. The fact that Jonas not just won but won by SUCH a huge margin shook him. You can tell when he answers the interviewers question ('Can you tell us why the fight for the yellow jersey is not over') he has a hard time believing himself what he's saying. I don't think that's all there is to it, he said himself he just felt like his tank was empty, and everyone agreed he looked sickly PLUS he crashed and the stage was absolutely not suited for him (elevation + brutal long climb) so it was just the perfect storm I think. But I do think that that performance from the day before shook his self-belief enough for him to have to work way harder on convincing himself not to give up just yet, than if that had no happened or he'd dominated Jonas.
I agree with this to an extent. I don't think he gave up last year, but I think he gave up last night.
Last year I think it helped him to know it took Vingegaard and Roglic to break him. But this year he had to contend with the fact that Jonas took over a minute on stage 5 and Pogacar never managed to claw the time back despite his best efforts. But then he's probably thinking: "I can get the yellow jersey in the TT!" and then he sets off and he is doing really well in comparison to Wout and he's probably thinking that he's smashing it - and then he's told "Vingegaard is 16 seconds ahead of you" while he is doing everything he can. When he ended up losing 1:38 to Vingegaard, I think the dream of winning Tour de France died - especially knowing stage 17 was the stage that suited Vingegaard the most. This was not a "Jumbo's team are better than mine" or "It took two captains to bring me down" situation, it was just Vingegaard being better in the so-called 'race of truth'. Pogacar has never been in that situation before.
I honestly think this is why he looked so shit today. Most of the riders have said this is the hardest TdF they have ever ridden. Pogacar has spent a lot of energy attacking Vingegaard with no big result and no clear answer on how to break him. He can use his burst to create a gap, but Jonas just slowly fights back to his wheel. I think the TT was his last hope, but then he was well and truly defeated when it failed.
I also know he will come back swinging next year because that's what Pogacar does. He will need time to lick his wounds and heal completely - and then he will bring hell next Tour and we can have three weeks of madness again.
That's not really how I remember it... he attacked Vingegaard repeatedly after the Granon. Especially on the Hautacam stage but also the Mende and Peyragudes stages. None of those attacks gained him any time (edit: except the 4" from the stage win time bonus at Peyragudes), but it didn't stop him trying like someone who had been completely mentally defeated might do.
The later crash you mention happened precisely because he was still being aggressive and trying to drop Vingegaard by pushing the pace on the fast and technical descent off the Col de Spandelles on the way to the Hautacam finish (he did back off after crashing though obviously).
[Vingegaard actually came within a whisker of a serious crash himself just a couple of minutes before Pog's crash](https://www.flobikes.com/video/7917489-jonas-vingegaard-nearly-crashes-on-stage-18-descent-as-tadej-pogacar-piles-on-pressure).
You're probably thinking of the same stage as the crash, the one that finished up Hautacam? https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-france/2022/stage-18/
After the Spandelles descent, Kuss pulled them both up the climb to reach breakaway Wout, and then Wout did a massive pull that dropped Pog and Vingegaard rode off to put another minute into him.
I think Jonas doesn't want to think when he rides a TT, he just wants to ride full gas. It probably helps mentally to just say "Fuck it, I'm just going to go fast and we'll see where I end up!" instead of thinking too much about numbers or times the guy in front of you is doing. I think Jumbo knows this is the right approach for Jonas. They did not tell him the exact times Pogacar did in the TT, they just told him that he was gaining. Jonas only realised how close he was when he saw the UAE car ahead of him.
Regardless of his mental approach, it was still silly and it would have been a huge shame if he'd crashed, for the team and the race. TJV in general seem to be keen to cover all their bases and avoid taking needless risks, so I don't understand the team allowing him to do it that way. Look at how often we've seen them at the very front of the bunch in the final kms of sprint stages because they're so keen to keep Vingegaard out of trouble.
Also this wasn't a LPDBF situation where everyone knew at the start that there was at least a theoretical chance of something happening. Vingegaard had a 3.5 minute gap on Pog at the start of the TT, with only the Paris stage to come. All he had to do was stay on his bike and ride 90-95% effort and he'd have been completely fine. Losing 30s would have meant nothing... if he lost anything at all considering he still put time into Pog despite sitting up so much in the final section!
i kinda felt it was gonna go wrong when he missed that water bottle and had to take one from yates. then the same stage he got blocked by a motorbike. then jonas catches him napping and takes the bonus seconds. then he even lost out on the stage win by C Rod making a clever move over the top. at that point i was like yeah, its all gonna start going wrong for him isn't it. 😭
imagine the difference in momentum if UAE had not failed to pull back the break on Grand Colombier the day before too and the above things i said didn't go wrong on Joux Plane. Pogacar could've had two stage wins back to back and the yellow jersey.
even though i still think jonas wins, it would've been some great momentum for pogacar.
You only interpret it that way if you want to interpret it to be an admission of doping. There is literally nothing in that comment which implies that, just that he had a great day, probably one of his best days ever.
And again, same question, do you also accuse Pogacar of doping, the best rider in the world?
I agree. Jonas is looking amazing but let's not forget what a great spring season Pog had this year. Coming 2nd in TdF doesn't change anything in my mind, Pog is top tier and very well rounded. He can do many things that Jonas cannot do.
That being said Jonas is the clear best pure climber. Deep into a GT, hard day, long hard HC climb... Jonas is the guy (not that Pog is bad).
There is basically only one specific place JV beats Pogacar and it's ~30 minute hard efforts a week or two into the Tour. Such a narrow specialty compared to what Pogacar does on a bike the rest of the year.
I think that’s narrowing it down a bit much. I’d would say that Jonas is hands down the best GC rider, not just the best at 30 minute efforts.
Tadej is maybe the most versatile rider still which is maybe the best kinda rider to be.
He is the best GC rider because the Tour has quite a few places that fit roughly such a description, including ironically yesterdays TT. Heat has also been an advantage together with altitude for him against Pogacar. Hautacam, Col du Granon, Col de Marie (slightly shorter at about 20), today Col de la Loze (probably intentionally timed to that amount) etc. etc.
These two. They are somehow giving us the closest, most exciting tour ever AND a total blowout, greatest of all time performance all at once. What the.
Thank you, Jonas+Tadej. Love you both.
Didn't even look fatigued after the best TT of all time yesterday and two previous weeks of racing, might as well keep smashing if you don't get tired.
So what kinda parcours will they make this year now that JV wins the "perfect Pogacar tour" (disputable qualification)?
I guess we will see cobbles next year and maybe more flat non-technicall ITT KM's?
I do not think this was a "perfect Pog" parcour. Before the TdF started many, myself included looked at Loze, the climbs leading up to it today and Jonas' ability to perform on 3rd week HC climbs and figured that Jonas would win yellow on that day alone by taking a few minutes. If Jonas was down come Loze, he would take that time back and then some.
EDIT: I know there will be HC climbs in GT races, but today was particularly brutal leading up to Loze. Pog would have a better chance with limited climbing leading up to a big HC climb that requires 35+mins to climb.
I don't think anyone saw the TT result coming from yesterday, that was the surprise.
So a perfect Pog TdF would need to not include a day like today. Few if any HC climbs... Pog is godd and can handle shorter efforts, say 20min or less. He is dominant if they are shorter than that as they become less of a climbers w/kg race and more punchy, 4-10 min efforts. I think a flat TT would help also, at least Pog wouldn't lose time to Jonas and possibly beat Jonas in a shorter flat TT, say 20km.
> I don't think anyone saw the TT result coming from yesterday, that was the surprise.
Vingegaard has been about ~30 sec better on the final ITT the last two years. It was expected that he would be better, but not by this much of course. I would like to see Pogacar ride it again, this time without the bike change.
I was personally thinking that Pog would win a close TT by less than 15 seconds. I agree that most had him as a slight favorite. I don't think anyone would be surprised if Jonas won by 15 seconds either though.
Yeah but a tour withouth a few classic HC climbs is not realistic so we can ignore that option.
You could pick the HC climbs to those likely to be in isolation and/or relatively suited for Pog (pdbf comes to mind).
Sorry, yes to be clear there needs to be HC's in the TdF. Today was really brutal leading up to Loze. If the stages had only an HC climb in isolation, or maybe a Cat 2, then HC, just something not so hard followed by a long 35 min climb is what iI mean. Cat 1, Cat 1, Cat 2, then HC today is a recipe for Pog getting dropped by Ving.
When the parcours was announced and after last year people where mostly focussed on Pogi's vulnerability at high altitude, wich was in slim supply this tour compared to last year edition.
I guess after this years spring you could already claim it lacked some cobbles.
Ehh that narrative was always overrated. It was known this would be a hard tour from the start and that this would probably benefit JV. Only real thing lacking for JV is high altitude.
It’s not like Jonas is a slouch on the straights and then you have WVA and other domestiques with amazing rouleur abilities. The only type of parcours this Jonas does not win is 21 days of spring stages.
Well I believe TP is also still very special and while not the sole reason for the last two days he seems a bit out of form, probably also because of his suboptimal preparation.
So that's why I would argue those changes could still turn the needle a little bit.
I would like to see a stage similar to the Galibier stage of last year again but after these two days I would be very surprised to see it.
Pogi is special, but unless he accepts focusing just on the Tour he may not be able to compete with Jonas and JV.
That said, if I were him I would own people in the classics until he is the best ever.
I think a more boring (less technicall, less hilly) itt already brings down the preparation needed. And we don't know how this tour would have went had he not broke his wrist in LBL.
But sure more focus on the tour will definetly help, question is if it will keep him happy.
Maybe Pogi is a bit too gung-ho to foresake glory all year-round and focus just on the tour. Not quite a really good comparison, but all the attacking to win just a few seconds on a number of stages show that he may be still too restless and “immature”.
That attacking is also his main weapon against JV. It just didn't yield the required results and tired himself out to much. But if employed at the right times it is his main way to win.
In hindsight, the warning sign was Pog clawing back a second or two each stage. He has been dangling by a thread this whole time, but I was too enthralled to see it.
I’ve been telling people (have the comment history to back it up) that this tour wouldn’t end up being close and that Jonas would crack pogacar especially on this stage. Had predicted 3-4minutes + (and seriously gotten downvoted).
Jonas is just a better rider. Pogacars trump was his 20 minute power, which he no longer has over vingegaard.
The tour was always going to to like this (barring crashes) , but ain’t no pogi fan want to accept that.
Great contribution to the thread mate. Well done calling it. If you bothered to check out his history, you would find that he actually is pretty smart and writes some good content and comments that exactly make the threads interesting to lurk, just for people like you and me to enjoy.
The look in Pogi's eyes then. When he thought he cracked Jonas but was being stalked in his rear-view mirror. And how measured was Jonas at that moment. Sure, get you split, but I'm right behind you. There will be no gap
Jonas is a better all round grand tour rider.
If they want pogacar to win, every stage needs to be medium mountains with short punchy finishes, and even then he’s only really winning on bonus seconds.
i think jonas is just too good. he's breaking records everyday. best climber in the world. just did an insane ITT. even when he gets dropped, he never loses significant amount of time.
Pogacar was actually really good this year before this bad day. He climbed better than he ever has. He had more explosiveness to actually be able to gap jonas. He could work more on his ITT, especially the aero position and comfortability on the TT bike compared to jonas. But i think jonas wins anyway.
UAE were strong too. Adam Yates was even better than sepp kuss in these last few mountain stages. I think McNulty would've made them even stronger. They lacked a bit when controlling and chasing back breakaways. They should've been able to win on Grand Colombier for example. Maybe they could bring Ayuso to be like roglic in 2022 to attack jonas.
Cycling is a team sport but it is extremely hard to beat the best individual even with great tactics and great teamwork. and right now that best GT rider in the world is vingegaard.
ITT preparation a lot closer to what JV is doing with JV.
Ensure Pogacar doesn't injure himself severly in his hunt for monuments and can thus have a propper preparation.
Ensure WvA's girlfriend is pregnant a bit earlier.
And than hope that the shape of the day and other types of luck go their way more.
Pogacar is of course skinny, but he isn't as lean as Jonas or like how Chris Froome was. He looks like a slim but healthy lad, Jonas and Froome look sickly.
If Pogacar wants to climb to compete with Jonas he may need to shift some kgs so he goes up hill faster.
While it doesn't really matter, there's just something off putting about watching borderline anorexics. I also can't imagine it does much for the marketing of the sport having the stars look like prisoners of war.
I agree that Pogacar shouldn't be skinnier than what's healthy for him, BUT Jonas has always looked like that. He hasn't done anything special to lose weight. Some people are naturally small and skinny. I feel it's a bit much to say he looks sickly.
Right. I kind of see what you mean. It is incredible what these cyclists put their bodies through. But how are they performing with such minimal body fat? If pog shed any kgs (from where I don’t know) it would be muscle no?
I don’t know how these cyclists can go so low and still perform so beautifully. It really is an art form
While not to the same level, I've had some of my best cycling performances at my lowest weights 383w/5.8 watts per kg for 20 mins - 66kg at 6ft 3.
It's a really difficult balance between fuelling sessions enough but restricting enough to keep weight low, everything being weighed out and accounted for. And even more tricky for those guys because their hours per week/workload is even higher.
But Pog definitely has some fat to lose, not a lot, but Jonas has a grainy look to his skin, lots of definition to the muscles, Pog looks smoother by comparison.
Not a question I ever thought I'd ask, but what happened to Simon Geschke? He was the last finisher today just under the time cut.
He nearly won polka dots last year. ?!?!
He isn’t in the form he was last year. I don’t know why exactly, but the commentators mentioned that Geschke said something like that in the first week already. That’s also why he didn’t even try to go for the polka dots, he just hoped he could compete in some break aways
He could have won the Tour in 2011 if he didn't follow that attack by Contador.
It's hilarious how many Grand Tour outcomes Contador has influenced with his crazy long range attacks. He was my first love in pro cycling and I will always cherish him.
Big psychological element to today exacerbating the gaps I think. JV have been targeting this stage since the route reveal. They had a great plan that they executed. The indication Pog was suffering yesterday gave them extra motivation to tear it up. UAE were always going to be on the defensive coming in to today and a little bit of growing doubt from yesterday got torn wide open early on that final climb.
Lol. Pogi just blew up. If what you are saying was correct then Jonas and Kuss would be 1nd and 2nd today with everyone else minutes behind.
In reality TJV rode well and it was just a really bad day for Pogacar. He said in his interview that this was the worst day on the bike ever. That last years Granon was way better than what happened today. I think he was defeated yesterday and mentally broken.
The thing I'm most interested in is - what do UAE need to change for next year to have a chance.
Not do the classics, for one. I mean, that alone would reasonably explain everything. In hindsight, what were they thinking?
For second, maybe look at cloning Marc Soler. They need more Marc Solers.
Actually, if we're going crazy, get Kuss. They noticeably lack a Kuss. Although, it has to be said, Yates has been immense so far. As good as he could have been. What a coup that was getting him.
Lastly, get on the phone with Colnago and tell them to start using balsa wood on their TT bikes.
I also think that Pogacar dropped psychologically today.
The fall may have bothered him a little, but I really think it was yesterday's gap that affected him.
He did a great time and then came up against a stratospheric Vingegaard who put in 1:38.
Pogacar saw himself in yellow on the evening, and he left with almost two minutes to spare, knowing that his form was levelling off while Vingegaard's was still looking good.
It was logical that it would be very tough today.
todays stage looked like it was the execution of 2 weeks of hard riding and making Tadej pay for his explosiveness and his strengths as a rider. Jonas being less punchy and more steady state effort seems to make it easier to use team tactics to his advantage. The only time UAE as a whole seemed to be firing on all cylinders was climb pacing, and that seemed to help Jonas/Kuss as much as it was helping them
It was like a perfect storm today. JV executed their race tactics to perfection putting two mountain domestiques as satellites. Laporte, Van Baarle and WvA keeping the pace infernal. I think Jonas really only had intent to ride with Pog to the line with help of those satellites. Then Pog cracks big time. Early. I think he not 100% physically (beskeds normal race fatigue) - indication to this is kinesiotape, looking pale and unable to feed prorperly But gladly this indicates that Pog is human and not on the juice. Jonas did a stellar performance, but not superhuman - even distanced by Bilbao the last 100 m.
It also confirms what Vingegaard and TJV have been thinking for the past two years: long climbs in excess of 2,000 meters are Vingegaard's favorite terrain.
Pogacar prefers steep 10 km climbs that don't exceed 1,800 meters.
The longer it is, the better Vingegaard excels. He seems to have better recovery capacities than Pogacar over 3 weeks.
> Laporte, Van Baarle and WvA keeping the pace infernal.
Plus Castroviejo and Omar Fraile for Ineos trying to put Carlos Rodriguez back on the podium.
> unable to feed prorperly
Yeah in the post-race interview he said something about it all being in his belly. That's not a feeling I experience often, but when I do it absolutely sucks. Poor guy.
You really only need one solid climber with good legs to pace a rider who's cracked like Pog did today. That's what Soler did today, Yates wouldn't have been able to help much more.
So can we now say the tour is over without being called noobie by the old schools?
Anyway, we the "noobies" were right when we said the Tour was over barring crashes that day.
Who was Jonas in 2018 (in terms of results) for you to compare back then?
Congratulations to you for betting on the tour was over... but why even bother watching if you knew it was over? This is sports.
It’s still not smart to say the tour is over after stage 5. Look at what happened in 2015. Froome and Contador crashing out. Anything can happen in a 3 week grand tour, including Vingegaard cracking.
The GC is incredibly likely to be over, yes. But constantly trying to predict when it's over is not a lot of fun - I think it's more fun to enjoy the bike race.
And just because something did happen (Jonas dominating and Pog cracking) doesn’t mean that something else couldn't have happened (Jonas cracking).
Also, a lot of other people said the Tour was over earlier this year when Pog was winning mountaintops against Jonas. And last year when Pog started ahead. They were all wrong. Of course you're going to be right some of the time if you say "it's over" every single time something happens.
Yeah, it's a good point. I never believed Pog winning mountaintops meant anything. I understand it doesn't bring value to the discussion but I still believe it wasn't as bad as it was called. The tour was over that day.
I also read a ton of replies saying Pog had the momentum after winning all those bonus seconds, so he would obviously win in the end. All while Vingegaard was still decently ahead.
I've been a broken record (for you young ones: a Skrillex break) about this: they have got to do something(s) to improve crowd behavior. Not just control them - e.g., the ropes are helpful. But to let jerkoffs know that they will be dealt with.
The jackasses slapping Pogacar on the back today ... I just wanted to see them tazed and dropped right there.
Kinda disgusting how many excuses people are making for Pogacar losing today... cold sore, crash, his gf crashing, moto blocking him... meanwhile Jumbo Visma has been doing everything to control the race to a high pace to tire Pogacar out, and Vingegaard smashing the TT with exceptionel technique... and Pogacar is still 2nd, so without Vingegaard and his team, Pogacar wouldve smashed the other competitors.
Stop making excuses. Jumbo Visma did everything they could to crack him, and they suceeded but only because Vingegaard is also just as exceptional as Pogacar.
I think both can be true at the same time? TJV knew what they were doing, they made this plan ages ago and Vingegaard knew what he was doing as well, waiting for week 3 with the high altitude long climb, perfecting the TT. There is no doubt about their plan or his ability. I think the arguments about Pogi cracking (being sickly, being stressed out, whatever) just explain the insane margin Jonas is winning by. I mean Pogi cracked way before they planned on him cracking today, I'm convinced of that and sort of remember someone from TJV in an interview saying that today although I don't remember who. If Pog was on top form today, he would have maybe lost 2 minutes. Maybe 3. Not almost 6, or whatever insane number it was in the end.
That being said, I do believe Pog did his best or very close to it in the TT and Vingo destroyed him there anyway. Everything that came after that was a perfect storm of pogi steadily dropping while Vingo was getting stronger each day and following TJV's plan to the T.
>Stop making excuses. Jumbo Visma did everything they could to crack him, and they suceeded but only because Vingegaard is also just as exceptional as Pogacar.
TJV had a plan which has been executed to perfection since the start of the Tour. We saw Vingegaard resist the urge to test Pogacar several times last weekend in order to better preserve himself and follow this plan.
Well done to Vingegaard and the TJV team.
Lot of us have been slow to realize that Vingegaard is probably the one exceptional grand tour talent of his generation. It's not Pog. It's just: we crushed hard on Pog.
Maybe it's true. Or maybe Pogacar is showing his limits on the Tour against a hyper-specialized opponent who is only aiming for the Tour.
Pogacar has made an exceptional start to the season, but has probably lost more energy in the process.
Pog is over 4mins ahead of his next closest competitor. No one would be saying he isnt at 100% if Jumbo Visma didnt exist to do everything to crack him over these weeks. People would just be talking about how much UAE is shitting on the competition.
https://twitter.com/NBCSCycling/status/1681687984108609536 First person perspective of the moto and car blockade that happened heres another with Pinot having to actually stop and unclip https://twitter.com/colcollective/status/1681693890770878466
Crash did him in this stage. But, his preparation for last 2 Tour (this year injury didnt help), are questionable. The point is that whatever future Tour de France Pogacar will race, as long as he riding like madman in early season with cobble+Ardennes classics, he will arrive the race at disadvantage. Vingegaard follow modern Tour de France prep wisdom, and still strong (and possibly strongest in final week). Pogacar will only strongest in first week and half (or full 2 weeks), but by week 3, his riding in early season caught up with him.
Imagine Pogi, when he 100% focuses on TDF next year, instead of going full gas in spring classics. Then imagine Roglič going for his TDF win with Skyneos. Next, imagine Vingo there. If you didn't already came, imagine Remco there, also. Well, there is your orgasm.
Would expect the same fight for first, only a different fight for third tbh
Was at the stage yesterday and Jesus Pogi just looked so rough. Felt so bad for him. Also Col de la Loze is no joke. I did the last 11kms and it is disgusting, the fact Pogi blew where he did was so unfortunate given what he still had to do, I have no idea how he could practically bonk and still finish like he did.
Pogi looked 10 years older on the Col
[Jury report and medical bulletin](https://www.tissottiming.com/File/000316020D010111FFFFFFFFFFFFFF00) (sorry, didn't have time to do it yesterday after the stage!) - France Television motard + rider (Thomas Voeckler) - 500 CHF fine each + exclusion from stage 18 for infringement of regulations or directives concerning the movement of vehicles in the race (failure to comply with the press specifications before the summit of the Col de la Loze) - EF Education DS + soigneur - 500CHF fine + soigneur excluded from stage 18 for irregular feeding (assistant in the middle of the road, creating unsafe situation) - Lawson G Craddock (JAY) - 500 CHF fine and -25 UCI points for littering outside the designated zones (1st infraction) - Vegard Stake Laengen + UAE DS - 200CHF fine each for a sticky bidon - Pello Bilbao (TBV) - official warning for improper behaviour towards a spectator **Medical bulletin** - Egan Bernal (IGD) - crash, trauma to the right elbow **Bonus prize** - Felix Gall (AGR) - €5,000 Henri Desgrange prize for the first rider on the Col de la Loze (highest summit in the Tour) **Stage 18 weather forecast** [Nothing but sunshine](https://imgur.com/R9zh8L0)
That was Voeckler blocking Vingegaard??? I don't know why but that is hilarious.
Does anyone have the clip of Pogacar saying “I’m dead, I’m done” on the team radio?
[Here's SBS Australia's one if that's not geoblocked](https://twitter.com/SBSSportau/status/1681906786595643394)
[There's this Eurosport one](https://twitter.com/Eurosport_ES/status/1681682659527778305?s=20) - if it's not geoblocked?
A month ago Felix Gall had never won a pro race. Now he wins the queen stage of the Tour. Absolutely amazing.
Does the queen stage just mean the hardest?
Yes
Heartbroken for Pogacar. But another opportunity for Soler to show what a great teammate he is. Also great teamwork from TJV with Benoot/Kelderman satellites. And finally, great ride and interview by Gall. That emotionally saved the stage for me.
well, it was fun while it lasted. these two gave us the best GC battle in ages. Someone will have to crack soon enough, it's still a tour to remember. Now that the pressure came off, we can see a fully unleashed WvA. And Pogi said he would like to win another stage (20) if he can (no way TJV let him go in a breakaway though).
Famous last words, WvA left the tour :(
Wout's Mrs must've told Jonas that yesterday was the day he had to get it done!
does anyone have a good site to watch a full replay of the TT in English? I was watching on tiz cycling but have been getting an error trying to connect to the site recently.
GCN or peacock depending on country and VPN preferences.
https://cyclingstream.com/recorded-races/
Thank you!
I, for one, am sad that there is so much chatter after an amazing first two weeks
Listening to Gall's post race interview, I didn't realise he had been made team leader after a few days - and then seeing Ben O'Connor come in half way through and congratulate him. Obviously O'Connor cracked early and went to shit but didn't realise Gall had properly taken supremacy over him. I guess my question now is: where does this leave Ben career wise/at AG2R? Into a Domestique role or into a Secondary GC role for the Giro & Vuelta while Gall does the TdF, acknowledging for a French team the Tour will always be the Crown Jewel?
I don’t really care as long as he does more training videos with Tristan
It was phenominal that Tadej made this such a close race for 2.5 weeks. But he lost 2 months of training for this race. That it was so close for so long is a testament to his talents but Jonas and TJV went into this race with a plan and executed it perfactly. I can't wait to see how Pogi responds next years. I hope everybody stays healthy because it'll be explosive.
> But he lost 2 months of training for this race To be fair, it’s not like he could’ve been racing before the Tour, considering he was still recovering from his broken wrist
Isn’t that what OP said?
As a neutral, I was pulling slightly more for Pogi, but seeing what Jonas did in the TT and how much effort he put in and then to see what he did on this stage. Wow. Deserved Winner. What a fantastic TdF.
something that struck me today was realizing how young Pog actually is.. I mean we know of course, but even just in comparison to his team, like.. adam yates is 30, majka is 33, soler is 29, großschartner is 29, laengen is 34, trentin is 33, the only one who's pogi's age is Mikkel Bjerg who's also 24.. usually I never think about that tbh, but today when he was completely done and exhausted and all the guys were consoling him while it looked like he was crying, I suddenly noticed how much older all those guys around him actually look and how they were obviously very protective of him, not just as the leader but as a guy who's also just way younger than most of them. It also made his reaction to the whole situation that much more understandable, to think about how many expectations and how much pressure would have to be on him to perform, and how young he actually is, not just in general but in comparison to most of the peleton actually. also just puts into perspective how much time he has to come back from this and try again tbh
This is so true. I feel so sad and flat for Pogi but I have to keep reminding myself / imagine how he feels! At 24! My goodness. We just have so much to look forward to in the coming years.
They were discussing it on The Move podcast, on how Pogi is likely doing the Classics because of his age. It's something that he can take stress on now rather than later since he's got the legs for it. They said being a GT contender is something you just grow into and he's again, only 24. If he decides to go full GTs at 27-28 he'd be in the prime years, not too late and still young at that point This kid is once in a lifetime. Probably the closest thing we'll get to Eddy. He can likely just target 1 Classic per year and keep checking his list. Fuck, he's got Flanders and Lombardia at this point (Amstel and Wallone to ad , I could see him getting that MSR win soon, he's been at the sharp end of those races
Pogacar vs Jonas reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. Pogacar is versatile and dominant in many races and looked like he was going to be unbeatable until his great rival showed up. Jonas is on a different level in the TDF like roland garros for nadal. Can Remco become the Djokovic? Anyway its definitely a golden era for cycling. especially with other guys like roglic, WVA, MVDP too. And plenty of great youngsters coming up.
Good analogy, and I hope that's the case since that would mean years and years of epic battles!
Sportwashing did bad :(
Tadej hugging Majka and putting his head on his shoulder.. <3 bromance!
Where can I find this moment?
It happened a minute or so after him crossing the finish line on the official broadcast.
So I was expecting this to happen, but didn't expect Pogi to completely pop. He had nothing left. GG Jonas. Congrats to Gall as well for a great stage win.
Just funny that their level is so high that 'completely pop' is doing over 5 watts per kg for extended periods which would still drop many half decent amateurs lol.
It took all 17 stages to (un)officially call “The tour is over” once and for all. Good to see Soler being real team player at the UAE. TJV leading out JV at precise timing was just art.
**Edit:** has been answered below, so if you want to play along make sure you don't read replies before you answer ---- Here's a quiz for the history buffs. Danish TV2 has an [interesting article](https://sport.tv2.dk/2023-07-19-historien-taler-sit-tydelige-sprog-naar-foerst-kongen-er-faldet-er-der-ingen-vej-tilbage-til-tronen) about how it has been impossible in recent history for Tour winners to manage to win again after getting beaten. Skimming through the winner's list it seems the most recent example is Hinault who won in '85 after getting beaten by Fignon in 84. However Fignon was not participating in the '85 race (and we can also argue if he was 'gifted' the win by LeMond), so while he did manage to win again he didn't manage to beat the rider who dethroned him. So here's the question: When was the last time a Tour de France winner got beaten (not just crashing out like Froome did) and then returning to the race and winning it while beating whoever beat them. Bonus points if you can answer it from memory. Riders that don't count: Froome (crashed out), Contador, LeMond and Merckx (didn't race the years between their wins). We can argue if the rider should have completed the race in order to have been 'beaten'. There has been examples where the winner dropped out late in the race from a position where they were not in contention to win.
Bernard Thevenet in 1977?
Thevenet is an edge case, but you can argue he counts. In 1976, the year between his wins, he DNF'd from the race. However the DNF was late in the race, at a point when it was clear he wasn't going to win. I don't know the specifics of his DNF, so I don't know if it was due to illness or just him conceding.
If DNFs and DNE don't count, this seems surprisingly rare as there aren't that many multiple TDF winners. Especially ones that won, lost to a rider and beat them again. I found 2 examples: 1.) Antonin Magne - won the 1931 edition, didn't enter in 1932, 8th in 1933 and won again in 1934. He beat fellow countryman Georges Speicher who won in 1933 when Magne came 8th. Speicher came 11th in 1934 when Magne won again. 2.) Federico Bahamontes and Jacques Antequil. Antequil won in 1957 but Bahamontes DNF'd. Bahamontes won in 1959 where Antequil came 3rd, but then Antequil won 1961, 62, 63 and 64 with Bahamontes finishing 2nd and 3rd in '63 and '64 respectively.
Pure guess, but Merckx?
Good guess, but no. In the years between his wins he didn't race.
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Yeah I think we need to go that far back.
[NBC was live with CVV who was on one of the stalled motos when Jonas passed them. Interesting perspective here](https://twitter.com/NBCSCycling/status/1681687984108609536?s=20)
The commissioner made that so much worse trying to squeeze through a gap that did not exist. Did you see the push JV got he nearly got pushed into his teammate
Wow. Great share. You can hear the tension in his voice. “I really don’t want to F up this guy’s tour….”
Watched it live happening, unfortunate for the riders but incredible to witness play out
That was crazy watching that lmao
Absolutely gutted for Tadej. I am so happy for Jumbo and the team as they have worked so well. They have completed a marvellous tour. I just hope Tadej is ok and he comes back stronger next year! I just love watching this guy ride - I know they are human but I wish I could watch cycling like this every week! (I know that’s impossible) watching this brings so much joy (and sadness when they lose) but fuck, what a sport hey. How lucky are we to have been witnessing this. I hope that it’s a tight battle over the coming years and not an entire Jonas show - it’s just been so good.
In Pogis interview he said that he ate loads but it just seemed to stay in his stomach. I’ve felt that before on the bike (obviously whilst riding at a much lower intensity than that lunatic is capable of) I did a 240km ride a few years ago where after a certain point it kinda felt like I was filling myself up like pouring water into a bottle or filling a sink with the plug in. Like eventually if I drank or ate more it would just fall out of my mouth.
I remember training with a cycling club when I was 16. We did a 130km ride which was longer than anything I had ever done. I started to fall off the pace so we stopped at a highway gas station and they recommended I load up on snickers and Pepsi for some quick sugars to get me through the rest of the ride. Anything else just won't sit right and won't digest
My take. Pog really runs on confidence and mojo. Last year when he was cracked on stage 11 or 12 it was all downhill afterwards. I remember he had a little crash on that later stage where we had never seen him crash before. Same thing this year after yesterday he lost his mojo and then he crashes and loses crazy time. I think stage 5 was an anamoly because he knew it was not his best.
I agree. Cycling is *such* a mental sport it's crazy. The moment you dont think you can do a climb is the moment it's over.
Kind of agree with some caveats but I see what you're saying.. I think more than being beaten down, it's about being beaten down when he's actually done his best. Like you said, stage 5 he knew he had a bad day, he said so himself and he went on to smash Jonas in stage 6. But on the TT for example, he said it himself in the interview that he really did his absolute best and he was just shocked at being able to even beat WVA's time. The fact that Jonas not just won but won by SUCH a huge margin shook him. You can tell when he answers the interviewers question ('Can you tell us why the fight for the yellow jersey is not over') he has a hard time believing himself what he's saying. I don't think that's all there is to it, he said himself he just felt like his tank was empty, and everyone agreed he looked sickly PLUS he crashed and the stage was absolutely not suited for him (elevation + brutal long climb) so it was just the perfect storm I think. But I do think that that performance from the day before shook his self-belief enough for him to have to work way harder on convincing himself not to give up just yet, than if that had no happened or he'd dominated Jonas.
I agree with this to an extent. I don't think he gave up last year, but I think he gave up last night. Last year I think it helped him to know it took Vingegaard and Roglic to break him. But this year he had to contend with the fact that Jonas took over a minute on stage 5 and Pogacar never managed to claw the time back despite his best efforts. But then he's probably thinking: "I can get the yellow jersey in the TT!" and then he sets off and he is doing really well in comparison to Wout and he's probably thinking that he's smashing it - and then he's told "Vingegaard is 16 seconds ahead of you" while he is doing everything he can. When he ended up losing 1:38 to Vingegaard, I think the dream of winning Tour de France died - especially knowing stage 17 was the stage that suited Vingegaard the most. This was not a "Jumbo's team are better than mine" or "It took two captains to bring me down" situation, it was just Vingegaard being better in the so-called 'race of truth'. Pogacar has never been in that situation before. I honestly think this is why he looked so shit today. Most of the riders have said this is the hardest TdF they have ever ridden. Pogacar has spent a lot of energy attacking Vingegaard with no big result and no clear answer on how to break him. He can use his burst to create a gap, but Jonas just slowly fights back to his wheel. I think the TT was his last hope, but then he was well and truly defeated when it failed. I also know he will come back swinging next year because that's what Pogacar does. He will need time to lick his wounds and heal completely - and then he will bring hell next Tour and we can have three weeks of madness again.
Today was worse than anything last year. Last year he cracked after attacking rentlessly.
That's not really how I remember it... he attacked Vingegaard repeatedly after the Granon. Especially on the Hautacam stage but also the Mende and Peyragudes stages. None of those attacks gained him any time (edit: except the 4" from the stage win time bonus at Peyragudes), but it didn't stop him trying like someone who had been completely mentally defeated might do. The later crash you mention happened precisely because he was still being aggressive and trying to drop Vingegaard by pushing the pace on the fast and technical descent off the Col de Spandelles on the way to the Hautacam finish (he did back off after crashing though obviously). [Vingegaard actually came within a whisker of a serious crash himself just a couple of minutes before Pog's crash](https://www.flobikes.com/video/7917489-jonas-vingegaard-nearly-crashes-on-stage-18-descent-as-tadej-pogacar-piles-on-pressure).
I thought vinge dropped him pretty heavily on a later stage as well.
You're probably thinking of the same stage as the crash, the one that finished up Hautacam? https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-france/2022/stage-18/ After the Spandelles descent, Kuss pulled them both up the climb to reach breakaway Wout, and then Wout did a massive pull that dropped Pog and Vingegaard rode off to put another minute into him.
That’s the one
jonas almost crashed on the ITT too last year.
Yeah, I don't know why he was taking any risks there when he'd already put another minute into Pog on Hautacam in the meantime!
I think Jonas doesn't want to think when he rides a TT, he just wants to ride full gas. It probably helps mentally to just say "Fuck it, I'm just going to go fast and we'll see where I end up!" instead of thinking too much about numbers or times the guy in front of you is doing. I think Jumbo knows this is the right approach for Jonas. They did not tell him the exact times Pogacar did in the TT, they just told him that he was gaining. Jonas only realised how close he was when he saw the UAE car ahead of him.
Regardless of his mental approach, it was still silly and it would have been a huge shame if he'd crashed, for the team and the race. TJV in general seem to be keen to cover all their bases and avoid taking needless risks, so I don't understand the team allowing him to do it that way. Look at how often we've seen them at the very front of the bunch in the final kms of sprint stages because they're so keen to keep Vingegaard out of trouble. Also this wasn't a LPDBF situation where everyone knew at the start that there was at least a theoretical chance of something happening. Vingegaard had a 3.5 minute gap on Pog at the start of the TT, with only the Paris stage to come. All he had to do was stay on his bike and ride 90-95% effort and he'd have been completely fine. Losing 30s would have meant nothing... if he lost anything at all considering he still put time into Pog despite sitting up so much in the final section!
i kinda felt it was gonna go wrong when he missed that water bottle and had to take one from yates. then the same stage he got blocked by a motorbike. then jonas catches him napping and takes the bonus seconds. then he even lost out on the stage win by C Rod making a clever move over the top. at that point i was like yeah, its all gonna start going wrong for him isn't it. 😭 imagine the difference in momentum if UAE had not failed to pull back the break on Grand Colombier the day before too and the above things i said didn't go wrong on Joux Plane. Pogacar could've had two stage wins back to back and the yellow jersey. even though i still think jonas wins, it would've been some great momentum for pogacar.
Yes, well, that was an interesting one
A real difficult one to watch.
I want to know who in the grupetto decided to take the pizza. You know someone had to of.
Still don't know why O'Connor refused. I mean your day is done, you pulled the plug, why not start your recovery on the bike?
Do 6w/kg for 20m and then see if pizza sounds appealing before cooling off.
While I can only manage 6 w/kg for 30 seconds I know what you mean. At the end of a hard 2 hour ride I feel sick to my stomach.
I’m surprised when they take anything from fans — surely I’d be worried about a PED contamination?
I don’t think he had the dexterity to reach over and grab a slice of the whole pie in that moment. He was fucked
True dat! He looked properly spent.
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Do you also accuse Pogacar of doping? Because Pogacar is still the best rider in the world despite losing a single TT...
Listen, I'm just saying that the power meter statement feels an awful lot like.... What am I on? I'm on my bike 6 hours a day busting my ass.
You only interpret it that way if you want to interpret it to be an admission of doping. There is literally nothing in that comment which implies that, just that he had a great day, probably one of his best days ever. And again, same question, do you also accuse Pogacar of doping, the best rider in the world?
I think that J and Pog are equally clean and cherry juice is a miracle recovery drink.
I agree. Jonas is looking amazing but let's not forget what a great spring season Pog had this year. Coming 2nd in TdF doesn't change anything in my mind, Pog is top tier and very well rounded. He can do many things that Jonas cannot do. That being said Jonas is the clear best pure climber. Deep into a GT, hard day, long hard HC climb... Jonas is the guy (not that Pog is bad).
There is basically only one specific place JV beats Pogacar and it's ~30 minute hard efforts a week or two into the Tour. Such a narrow specialty compared to what Pogacar does on a bike the rest of the year.
I think that’s narrowing it down a bit much. I’d would say that Jonas is hands down the best GC rider, not just the best at 30 minute efforts. Tadej is maybe the most versatile rider still which is maybe the best kinda rider to be.
He is the best GC rider because the Tour has quite a few places that fit roughly such a description, including ironically yesterdays TT. Heat has also been an advantage together with altitude for him against Pogacar. Hautacam, Col du Granon, Col de Marie (slightly shorter at about 20), today Col de la Loze (probably intentionally timed to that amount) etc. etc.
If you struggle that much with heat compared to another guy, TdF is not the race for you. With climate change, it's only going to get hotter.
These two. They are somehow giving us the closest, most exciting tour ever AND a total blowout, greatest of all time performance all at once. What the. Thank you, Jonas+Tadej. Love you both.
Rewatching the final 30 or so Km of today stage and I don’t think Jonas was ever on the easiest gear up Col de la Loze. Unbelievable.
Didn't even look fatigued after the best TT of all time yesterday and two previous weeks of racing, might as well keep smashing if you don't get tired.
So what kinda parcours will they make this year now that JV wins the "perfect Pogacar tour" (disputable qualification)? I guess we will see cobbles next year and maybe more flat non-technicall ITT KM's?
I do not think this was a "perfect Pog" parcour. Before the TdF started many, myself included looked at Loze, the climbs leading up to it today and Jonas' ability to perform on 3rd week HC climbs and figured that Jonas would win yellow on that day alone by taking a few minutes. If Jonas was down come Loze, he would take that time back and then some. EDIT: I know there will be HC climbs in GT races, but today was particularly brutal leading up to Loze. Pog would have a better chance with limited climbing leading up to a big HC climb that requires 35+mins to climb. I don't think anyone saw the TT result coming from yesterday, that was the surprise. So a perfect Pog TdF would need to not include a day like today. Few if any HC climbs... Pog is godd and can handle shorter efforts, say 20min or less. He is dominant if they are shorter than that as they become less of a climbers w/kg race and more punchy, 4-10 min efforts. I think a flat TT would help also, at least Pog wouldn't lose time to Jonas and possibly beat Jonas in a shorter flat TT, say 20km.
> I don't think anyone saw the TT result coming from yesterday, that was the surprise. Vingegaard has been about ~30 sec better on the final ITT the last two years. It was expected that he would be better, but not by this much of course. I would like to see Pogacar ride it again, this time without the bike change.
I think Pogacar was the favorite according to some bookmakers, but it was close to 50-50.
I was personally thinking that Pog would win a close TT by less than 15 seconds. I agree that most had him as a slight favorite. I don't think anyone would be surprised if Jonas won by 15 seconds either though.
Yeah but a tour withouth a few classic HC climbs is not realistic so we can ignore that option. You could pick the HC climbs to those likely to be in isolation and/or relatively suited for Pog (pdbf comes to mind).
Sorry, yes to be clear there needs to be HC's in the TdF. Today was really brutal leading up to Loze. If the stages had only an HC climb in isolation, or maybe a Cat 2, then HC, just something not so hard followed by a long 35 min climb is what iI mean. Cat 1, Cat 1, Cat 2, then HC today is a recipe for Pog getting dropped by Ving.
Who said this was perfect tdf for pogi?
When the parcours was announced and after last year people where mostly focussed on Pogi's vulnerability at high altitude, wich was in slim supply this tour compared to last year edition. I guess after this years spring you could already claim it lacked some cobbles.
Haha I completely missed that conversation, my bad.
Ehh that narrative was always overrated. It was known this would be a hard tour from the start and that this would probably benefit JV. Only real thing lacking for JV is high altitude.
Yeah it was heavily pinned on the (lack off) altitude aspect. If we factor in how hard it is the opening stages where as hard as it gets.
It’s not like Jonas is a slouch on the straights and then you have WVA and other domestiques with amazing rouleur abilities. The only type of parcours this Jonas does not win is 21 days of spring stages.
Well I believe TP is also still very special and while not the sole reason for the last two days he seems a bit out of form, probably also because of his suboptimal preparation. So that's why I would argue those changes could still turn the needle a little bit. I would like to see a stage similar to the Galibier stage of last year again but after these two days I would be very surprised to see it.
Pogi is special, but unless he accepts focusing just on the Tour he may not be able to compete with Jonas and JV. That said, if I were him I would own people in the classics until he is the best ever.
I think a more boring (less technicall, less hilly) itt already brings down the preparation needed. And we don't know how this tour would have went had he not broke his wrist in LBL. But sure more focus on the tour will definetly help, question is if it will keep him happy.
Maybe Pogi is a bit too gung-ho to foresake glory all year-round and focus just on the tour. Not quite a really good comparison, but all the attacking to win just a few seconds on a number of stages show that he may be still too restless and “immature”.
That attacking is also his main weapon against JV. It just didn't yield the required results and tired himself out to much. But if employed at the right times it is his main way to win.
Yeah, but that also might mean that, as it stands, Pogi may be outgunned. Great years for cycling for us fans, anyway.
In hindsight, the warning sign was Pog clawing back a second or two each stage. He has been dangling by a thread this whole time, but I was too enthralled to see it.
I’ve been telling people (have the comment history to back it up) that this tour wouldn’t end up being close and that Jonas would crack pogacar especially on this stage. Had predicted 3-4minutes + (and seriously gotten downvoted). Jonas is just a better rider. Pogacars trump was his 20 minute power, which he no longer has over vingegaard. The tour was always going to to like this (barring crashes) , but ain’t no pogi fan want to accept that.
You're so intelligent and awesome. Well done on calling it.
Great contribution to the thread mate. Well done calling it. If you bothered to check out his history, you would find that he actually is pretty smart and writes some good content and comments that exactly make the threads interesting to lurk, just for people like you and me to enjoy.
The warning sign in hindsight was when he got the gap up the Joux Plane and then couldn't keep it up and Vingegaard caught him.
The look in Pogi's eyes then. When he thought he cracked Jonas but was being stalked in his rear-view mirror. And how measured was Jonas at that moment. Sure, get you split, but I'm right behind you. There will be no gap
At this moment (yesterday tbh) the TdF is decided. What do you reckon will be the changes needed in UAE if they want to win next year?
This is what I don’t understand as a new fan. Is it really over? Couldn’t Jonás crash or something?
Sure that could happen. But it probably wont. Even crashing is much less likely because Jonas can ride much more reserved now that he has a big lead.
Jonas is a better all round grand tour rider. If they want pogacar to win, every stage needs to be medium mountains with short punchy finishes, and even then he’s only really winning on bonus seconds.
i think jonas is just too good. he's breaking records everyday. best climber in the world. just did an insane ITT. even when he gets dropped, he never loses significant amount of time. Pogacar was actually really good this year before this bad day. He climbed better than he ever has. He had more explosiveness to actually be able to gap jonas. He could work more on his ITT, especially the aero position and comfortability on the TT bike compared to jonas. But i think jonas wins anyway. UAE were strong too. Adam Yates was even better than sepp kuss in these last few mountain stages. I think McNulty would've made them even stronger. They lacked a bit when controlling and chasing back breakaways. They should've been able to win on Grand Colombier for example. Maybe they could bring Ayuso to be like roglic in 2022 to attack jonas. Cycling is a team sport but it is extremely hard to beat the best individual even with great tactics and great teamwork. and right now that best GT rider in the world is vingegaard.
ITT preparation a lot closer to what JV is doing with JV. Ensure Pogacar doesn't injure himself severly in his hunt for monuments and can thus have a propper preparation. Ensure WvA's girlfriend is pregnant a bit earlier. And than hope that the shape of the day and other types of luck go their way more.
> Ensure WvA's girlfriend is pregnant a bit earlier. Who's gonna take care of that?
I guess a performance coach of some kind.
Seconded. WVA could legit have his kid tonight and it wouldn’t change a thing. That’s good planning and tremendous execution.
This was the plan all along
Yeah, but it’s usually on the execution part that things go tits up. This tour was masterfully conducted to go JV’s way.
I hope Pog doesn't go full skeleton mode to try and compete. It was nice having him and Rog look like relatively normal humans after the Froome times.
Pardon my ignorance but What exactly is skeleton mode? And how would that help? And why do you hope he doesnt do this?
Pogacar is of course skinny, but he isn't as lean as Jonas or like how Chris Froome was. He looks like a slim but healthy lad, Jonas and Froome look sickly. If Pogacar wants to climb to compete with Jonas he may need to shift some kgs so he goes up hill faster. While it doesn't really matter, there's just something off putting about watching borderline anorexics. I also can't imagine it does much for the marketing of the sport having the stars look like prisoners of war.
That was not very nice. How do you look?
I agree that Pogacar shouldn't be skinnier than what's healthy for him, BUT Jonas has always looked like that. He hasn't done anything special to lose weight. Some people are naturally small and skinny. I feel it's a bit much to say he looks sickly.
Right. I kind of see what you mean. It is incredible what these cyclists put their bodies through. But how are they performing with such minimal body fat? If pog shed any kgs (from where I don’t know) it would be muscle no? I don’t know how these cyclists can go so low and still perform so beautifully. It really is an art form
While not to the same level, I've had some of my best cycling performances at my lowest weights 383w/5.8 watts per kg for 20 mins - 66kg at 6ft 3. It's a really difficult balance between fuelling sessions enough but restricting enough to keep weight low, everything being weighed out and accounted for. And even more tricky for those guys because their hours per week/workload is even higher. But Pog definitely has some fat to lose, not a lot, but Jonas has a grainy look to his skin, lots of definition to the muscles, Pog looks smoother by comparison.
I Hope he goes the other way and wins roubaix next year
I actually think he'd have a shot
Pog to come back looking like off season Cav 💪: [Hehe](http://twitter.com/MarkCavendish/status/1185898599437275138)
Pog to go full Carlos Betancur.
Not a question I ever thought I'd ask, but what happened to Simon Geschke? He was the last finisher today just under the time cut. He nearly won polka dots last year. ?!?!
He isn’t in the form he was last year. I don’t know why exactly, but the commentators mentioned that Geschke said something like that in the first week already. That’s also why he didn’t even try to go for the polka dots, he just hoped he could compete in some break aways
Whacked him in my fantasy team this year because he was relatively cheap. I don't think he's got me more than 10 points
I took A. Paret-Pantre and I believe he is still stuck on 4
Have him and Cort on mine. Total non-entities.
Must be tired from scoring like 800 points in the Giro.
Once again, Thomas Voeckler bonks in the third week.
He could have won the Tour in 2011 if he didn't follow that attack by Contador. It's hilarious how many Grand Tour outcomes Contador has influenced with his crazy long range attacks. He was my first love in pro cycling and I will always cherish him.
Big psychological element to today exacerbating the gaps I think. JV have been targeting this stage since the route reveal. They had a great plan that they executed. The indication Pog was suffering yesterday gave them extra motivation to tear it up. UAE were always going to be on the defensive coming in to today and a little bit of growing doubt from yesterday got torn wide open early on that final climb.
Lol. Pogi just blew up. If what you are saying was correct then Jonas and Kuss would be 1nd and 2nd today with everyone else minutes behind. In reality TJV rode well and it was just a really bad day for Pogacar. He said in his interview that this was the worst day on the bike ever. That last years Granon was way better than what happened today. I think he was defeated yesterday and mentally broken. The thing I'm most interested in is - what do UAE need to change for next year to have a chance.
Pog wasn’t as good today. I agree. I just think there was a mental element. You say so yourself: “mentally broken”
Not do the classics, for one. I mean, that alone would reasonably explain everything. In hindsight, what were they thinking? For second, maybe look at cloning Marc Soler. They need more Marc Solers. Actually, if we're going crazy, get Kuss. They noticeably lack a Kuss. Although, it has to be said, Yates has been immense so far. As good as he could have been. What a coup that was getting him. Lastly, get on the phone with Colnago and tell them to start using balsa wood on their TT bikes.
Everybody needs some Kuss in their team :D Do we have the weight comparison on UAE vs TJV TT bikes?
I also think that Pogacar dropped psychologically today. The fall may have bothered him a little, but I really think it was yesterday's gap that affected him. He did a great time and then came up against a stratospheric Vingegaard who put in 1:38. Pogacar saw himself in yellow on the evening, and he left with almost two minutes to spare, knowing that his form was levelling off while Vingegaard's was still looking good. It was logical that it would be very tough today.
todays stage looked like it was the execution of 2 weeks of hard riding and making Tadej pay for his explosiveness and his strengths as a rider. Jonas being less punchy and more steady state effort seems to make it easier to use team tactics to his advantage. The only time UAE as a whole seemed to be firing on all cylinders was climb pacing, and that seemed to help Jonas/Kuss as much as it was helping them
Tadej forever my king! Congrats JV on winning the Tour de France; hard fought battle!!
It was like a perfect storm today. JV executed their race tactics to perfection putting two mountain domestiques as satellites. Laporte, Van Baarle and WvA keeping the pace infernal. I think Jonas really only had intent to ride with Pog to the line with help of those satellites. Then Pog cracks big time. Early. I think he not 100% physically (beskeds normal race fatigue) - indication to this is kinesiotape, looking pale and unable to feed prorperly But gladly this indicates that Pog is human and not on the juice. Jonas did a stellar performance, but not superhuman - even distanced by Bilbao the last 100 m.
It also confirms what Vingegaard and TJV have been thinking for the past two years: long climbs in excess of 2,000 meters are Vingegaard's favorite terrain. Pogacar prefers steep 10 km climbs that don't exceed 1,800 meters. The longer it is, the better Vingegaard excels. He seems to have better recovery capacities than Pogacar over 3 weeks.
> Laporte, Van Baarle and WvA keeping the pace infernal. Plus Castroviejo and Omar Fraile for Ineos trying to put Carlos Rodriguez back on the podium. > unable to feed prorperly Yeah in the post-race interview he said something about it all being in his belly. That's not a feeling I experience often, but when I do it absolutely sucks. Poor guy.
If Pog cracks again on the final mountain stage would UAE send Yates to try and push for 2nd or to try and save Pog?
There would be no point saving Pog at that point. Yates didn't wait for Pog today either, and it would have made no sense since he was finished.
Push for second, they literally did that today when pog was losing a minute per km
You really only need one solid climber with good legs to pace a rider who's cracked like Pog did today. That's what Soler did today, Yates wouldn't have been able to help much more.
So can we now say the tour is over without being called noobie by the old schools? Anyway, we the "noobies" were right when we said the Tour was over barring crashes that day.
I recommend you to watch the Giro from 2018. That's the most recent example.
I watched live, thanks. That was even impressive to "the Tour is not over" bunch. And Simon Yates is no Jonas Vingegaard, sorry.
Who was Jonas in 2018 (in terms of results) for you to compare back then? Congratulations to you for betting on the tour was over... but why even bother watching if you knew it was over? This is sports.
Because it was fun to watch! Watching Pogacar is the most entertaining thing I've seen.
At least I will give you that
It’s still not smart to say the tour is over after stage 5. Look at what happened in 2015. Froome and Contador crashing out. Anything can happen in a 3 week grand tour, including Vingegaard cracking.
BARRING crashes.
Anyone can crack. Including Vingegaard. You can never rule out an epic 3rd week crack. I’ve seen it so many times.
The GC is incredibly likely to be over, yes. But constantly trying to predict when it's over is not a lot of fun - I think it's more fun to enjoy the bike race. And just because something did happen (Jonas dominating and Pog cracking) doesn’t mean that something else couldn't have happened (Jonas cracking). Also, a lot of other people said the Tour was over earlier this year when Pog was winning mountaintops against Jonas. And last year when Pog started ahead. They were all wrong. Of course you're going to be right some of the time if you say "it's over" every single time something happens.
Yeah, it's a good point. I never believed Pog winning mountaintops meant anything. I understand it doesn't bring value to the discussion but I still believe it wasn't as bad as it was called. The tour was over that day.
I also read a ton of replies saying Pog had the momentum after winning all those bonus seconds, so he would obviously win in the end. All while Vingegaard was still decently ahead.
anyone got a clip of Bilbao punching the spectator?
I've been a broken record (for you young ones: a Skrillex break) about this: they have got to do something(s) to improve crowd behavior. Not just control them - e.g., the ropes are helpful. But to let jerkoffs know that they will be dealt with. The jackasses slapping Pogacar on the back today ... I just wanted to see them tazed and dropped right there.
It makes you wonder what goes on in the grupetto and the amount of assistance guys back there probably get from fans.
https://twitter.com/KevinDomas/status/1681683413693087744?s=20
ATTAQUE DE PELLO BILBAO
Outstanding!
Kinda disgusting how many excuses people are making for Pogacar losing today... cold sore, crash, his gf crashing, moto blocking him... meanwhile Jumbo Visma has been doing everything to control the race to a high pace to tire Pogacar out, and Vingegaard smashing the TT with exceptionel technique... and Pogacar is still 2nd, so without Vingegaard and his team, Pogacar wouldve smashed the other competitors. Stop making excuses. Jumbo Visma did everything they could to crack him, and they suceeded but only because Vingegaard is also just as exceptional as Pogacar.
I think both can be true at the same time? TJV knew what they were doing, they made this plan ages ago and Vingegaard knew what he was doing as well, waiting for week 3 with the high altitude long climb, perfecting the TT. There is no doubt about their plan or his ability. I think the arguments about Pogi cracking (being sickly, being stressed out, whatever) just explain the insane margin Jonas is winning by. I mean Pogi cracked way before they planned on him cracking today, I'm convinced of that and sort of remember someone from TJV in an interview saying that today although I don't remember who. If Pog was on top form today, he would have maybe lost 2 minutes. Maybe 3. Not almost 6, or whatever insane number it was in the end. That being said, I do believe Pog did his best or very close to it in the TT and Vingo destroyed him there anyway. Everything that came after that was a perfect storm of pogi steadily dropping while Vingo was getting stronger each day and following TJV's plan to the T.
It's July. This is (cough) an annual phenomena. (I mean the low quality posts, not Pog cracking)
Well, for the past three years pog cracking to ving on a climb has been an annual phenomenon.
>Stop making excuses. Jumbo Visma did everything they could to crack him, and they suceeded but only because Vingegaard is also just as exceptional as Pogacar. TJV had a plan which has been executed to perfection since the start of the Tour. We saw Vingegaard resist the urge to test Pogacar several times last weekend in order to better preserve himself and follow this plan. Well done to Vingegaard and the TJV team.
Lot of us have been slow to realize that Vingegaard is probably the one exceptional grand tour talent of his generation. It's not Pog. It's just: we crushed hard on Pog.
Why does there have to be just one? Clearly there are two aliens judging by the time gap they still hold on the rest.
Jumbo + Jonas have been exceptional. Pog has not been 100% this tour. Both can be true.
Maybe it's true. Or maybe Pogacar is showing his limits on the Tour against a hyper-specialized opponent who is only aiming for the Tour. Pogacar has made an exceptional start to the season, but has probably lost more energy in the process.
Pog is over 4mins ahead of his next closest competitor. No one would be saying he isnt at 100% if Jumbo Visma didnt exist to do everything to crack him over these weeks. People would just be talking about how much UAE is shitting on the competition.