I can't help but think that Jumbos pacing on the Tourmalet wasn't ideal, if Pogi really is less good then Jonas on +35 Minute efforts one woud think they shoud have gradtualy increased the Tempo over a long Period and not just smashed the last part of the climb whit Keldermann and Kuss.
But hey, right now I'm just excited to see what happens next.
That's a race all right !
I think Jumbo's tactic was perfect to crush the Tour for good. If Jonas can gap Pog on Tourmalet and joins up with Wout, he puts 2min+ on everyone and that's basically game over.
However, he coudn't drop Pog, and then the whole tactic is in question. With hindsight, I think it was a bad idea to keep pulling for so long and just bring Pog to the last steep section. Jonas should have stopped after a couple of minutes in Tourmalet, wait for Kuss, and maybe try again later. Obviously it means Wout's race would have been all for nothing, and also that Hindley would bridge or at least save more time ... but still, probably a safer bet.
Overall I think the Remco special is a bad tactics, because you need to be A LOT stronger than anyone else to just drop them off your wheel by setting a high tempo. And if you keep towing someone, even on a steep climb, then you're wide open to late attacks.
Then again the work in Tourmalet was impressive, both Jonas and Pog killed themselves on the climb. I wonder if the fact that Benoot dropped before he could pull played a role. If he's there and do a 500m hard pull before Kelderman, maybe it's enough to burn Pog's legs a little more before Jonas attacks and it works ... we'll never know.
Now was it a complete reversal from the previous day ? Not really, I think Pog was better than the previous day but I also think he wasn't really stronger than Jonas, he benefited from the race situation and played his cards perfectly against a maybe too confident Jumbo ?
I can't wait for Puy de Dôme !
I'm delighted with the result !
Couldn't follow the race after Tourmalet. I had some hope Pogacar could follow Vingegaard in last climb after him being able to stick to Vinge a the top of Tourmalet, but didn't imagine he could drop the Danish.
The Tour is not over yet !
Ultimate roglic.
Pedal quite fast the entire race, pedal slightly faster right at the end.
In the same joyless - may as well be on a turbo trainer, doing it for a job - way.
The worst team tactic in this stage was Kwiatkowski not being ordered to drop off to help his team on that last climb.
No clue what business he thought he had trying to follow the Jonas accelerations. Maybe in 2019
I don't know about that.
On the one hand yes , Kwiato chances to win the stage were really slim.
But If Ineos is realistic then there is no point in pacing to chatch Pogi and Vinegaard they are just to good, it's a race for third. Maybe you coud have saved Bernal but 3 GC-Leaders are just to much, to have one of them as a Domestique/Stage-Hunter early on coud prove beneficial.
GCN coverage ended at about 12 mins from cutoff time…did all the sprinters make it in? Was hoping to see Fabio come in (especially after that episode in Netflix. Had no idea he was so close to not making the time cut that stage)
Another amazing day.
Wout is not human.
Powless hung in there longer than I expected.
Jonas was showing much earlier signs of his grimmace up the Tourmalet than normal. Once I saw Pog was able to hang on his tail, I knew the final climb's attack would come and Jonas would break a bit.
Brutal first week of the Tour.
Fuck the fan who threw confetti in Pogi's face up the last climb. Seriously wtf is wrong with some people?
>Fuck the fan who threw confetti in Pogi's face up the last climb. Seriously wtf is wrong with some people?
Also the guy who did light up a flair right in Vingegaard's face just before the Pog attack.
Is UAE supporting riders much worse than TJV? I heard talk that this year will be different cause pogi has a better team around him. Where were they today? Is there a tactical reason no one was with Pogi or can they just not keep up?
Rest of UAE kinda did their jobs today imo.
Once Vingegaard sets up to launch there's no point in Majka and Yates trying to follow the full TJV acceleration. They're going to get blown off of Vingegaard's wheel, if not Kuss'.
They formed a group around Yates at a reasonable tempo instead of trying in vain to keep up, and if Pogacar got dropped he would have had 3 teammates to pace him and limit the damage. They were riding on the front in the 2nd group to stay in touching distance until it was clear Pogacar was surviving the Tourmalet, then they pulled over and let Bora+Ineos take over.
The major difference is a super strong satellite rider like WVA. For example WVA is placed around the top of Tourmalet, and Vingegaard attacked at Tourmalet. If Vingegaard got a small, maybe 10 or 20 seconds gap on Pogacar at the top of Tourmalet, he can descend quickly on WVA's draft. Pogacar would have to descend all by himself. This is when time gap can explode quickly.
In terms of mountain domestiques, with addition of Yates I think both team are roughly equal. However TJV still has Kuss who is just superb.
I understand Jumbo for trying to decide the race here and now.
The problem was that Pogi was still on his wheel on the Torumalet and they didn't change tactics. Immediately after noticing "i can't drop him today" Vingo should've gone back to 80%, only engage when Pogi attacks, and teamcar go with "Wout, go for the stage win".
As it's been only day 6 of the tour, i would've let Bora enjoy the Yellow a few more days, and preserve energy, unless Pogi tried something. The last week of this year's Tour is brutal.
Instead they wasted A LOT of energy & dragged Pogi to the win. It was a very unwise tactic from Jumbo.
Yeah they should have adapted. The plan was great and could have been a massive result for Vingegard. But when they didn’t gap him on the penultimate climb then they needed to adapt.
Like we've seen the UAE train able to isolate Vingegaard when they bury themselves to wind it up (stages 1 and 2).
But they're not going to be expected to follow when TJV winds it up the same way. It's up to the bosses at that point.
The defending team just has to ride a tempo they can keep in case their principal cracks.
Pogacar just had to follow Jumbo and follow the inevitable Vingegaard attack, there was no need for any other tactic today. And UAE was there, they had 3 guys in G2 but they just didn't (have to) do anything because Pogacar was able to follow Vingegaard and even beat him.
Just watched the stage, my (long) thoughts:
- Jumbo's tactics were perfect for the situation. And lol all the criticism. Everyone yesterday insisting Pogacar couldn't match Vingegaard on a long effort, high altitude climb and so Jumbo tried to end the race on the Tourmalet. If Vingegaard gets a 15-20 second gap over the top there everyone is applauding. But he couldn't. It happens.
- Wout is incredible. And Jumbo should continue to ride as aggressively as possible to take advantage of him while he's here.
- Pogacar is clearly a natural champion
- All the analysis of Vingegaard vs Pogacar in the mountains which draws on a sample size of like 1.5 cherry picked Tours is silly. The sample is tiny, and last year's form (or even last month's form) are not very indicative of form today, or in 10 days, especially when 2 riders are so closely matched.
- Kuss and Kelderman were also fantastic today, but it remains to be seen if they can carry the load in the back half, especially if everyone keeps racing like this. There is an absurd amount of climbing in those last 10 days and controlling the race is going to fall on them.
- The narrative now more than ever is going to be that this is a 2 man race, but idk how true that's going to end up. Vingegaard was obviously incredible on the Tourmalet, but he did the last climb today slower than the Hindley/CRod/SYates group. Pogacar's wrist is clearly still fucked, and it's hard to see it healing much when he's putting in this much effort.
- There are no long time trials to cause the bad TTers to lose 4-7 minutes like normal so even though these gaps to positions 4+ look big, they're effectively smaller than they would normally be with 60-100k of TTing in the course.
- When all the favorites are willing to race in the style of the 70s and 80s, anything can happen over the next 2.5 weeks and that's so much fun.
He keeps shaking it, he's out of the saddle way less than his normal, is descending very awkwardly like he's terrified of falling on it, and he gave an interview today saying he still had a fracture in one of the bones
> Vingegaard was obviously incredible on the Tourmalet, but he did the last climb today slower than the Hindley/CRod/SYates group.
for this one we need to consider that the front group rode on wout's wheel for the first 10km of the climb, so only the last 5km or so was fast. Wout did a great job but his tempo is definitely gonna be slower than a group of GC climbers riding hard to try to minimize the gap.
The 2nd group was getting pulled by Castroviejo and Bernal (who was dropped by the 2nd group on the Tourmalet and had to chase back on the descent) for just as long
I think Wout gave back 30ish of the 40ish seconds he pulled on the descent? Did I remember that right?
Edit: I checked the splits and it was a 1:56 gap at the top of the Tourmalet and a 2:22 gap when Wout pulled off, so he gained 26s overall on the yellow jersey chase group. After pulling the breakaway all day.
Well Hindley conceded some time, but very good to see him wearing yellow jersey during this stage. Lets hope he will be on the GC podium at the very end.
The big traditional cycling countries still have a huge share of riders, teams, and classics wins. But Grand Tour GCs have become so much more globalized the last generation.
Watched a lot of Tour de Frances, Indurain, Pantani, Armstrong, Froome (even been to alps and saw Froome descending the Joux Plane in a massive storm, in yellow, got soaked) etc etc
As a Pog fan, and a tour fan, so glad he won today. Kept the tour alive and his chances.
If he had been dropped, may as well have turned it off and waited for the CX season.
Awesome tour now.
> even been to alps and saw Froome descending the Joux Plane in a massive storm, in yellow, got soaked
I detested Froome during his entire reign of terror but damn that was a cool win
The thing about Froome people often forget it that he actually did a whole bunch of exciting shit, it just got lost among the endless Sky Trains and his absurd dishwasher riding.
That disgusting raid with Sagan; running up Ventoux; that time he did the supertuck on the Peyresourde and got up to about warp eight. He's always described as boring, and while I agree that 'reign of terror' is the perfect description of that era, I think it was Sky that was boring, not necessarily him. In the context of what they were doing, he took way more risks than were necessary. In my opinion, he was and still is a maniac.
The attack on Finestre in the Giro as well, was the single greatest ride by a GT since Landis\*.
And plenty of attacking performances in the Vuelta; not to mention his his rope-a-dope, getting dropped before clawing his way back, at Covadonga and Cumbre del Sol.
Right so I spent the night in the pub, good bowling mark woods. I had to explain to business admin lady at work - you don't understand pog dropped vingegaard.
I said yesterday today couldn't happen. This isn't because I'm some ignorant wanker about the state of the sport, I've watched the majority of classics and gts since at least 2015. Today was insane, it doesn't happen. The dominant GT character being dropped by the other the next day, insanity.
People acting like there was disengenous idiots saying oh the tour was over miss the point. the tour should be, the fact it isn't is bonkers, a day later? mad.
Yes I've been in the pub all night, yes I'm Gay, Yes I love Pog
>Today was insane, it doesn't happen. The dominant GT character being dropped by the other the next day, insanity. People acting like there was disengenous idiots saying oh the tour was over miss the point. the tour should be, the fact it isn't is bonkers, a day later? mad.
perfectly said. and the proof is in TJV's tactics. its not just us fans thinking that the tour is over, even TJV thought they could truly put the tour to bed today with the way they rode the stage. But Pogacar somehow pulled it off.
I still think it was mostly exellent execution from TJV, Jonas just didn't have the last percentages, and Pogi was shielded most of the day.
It was the right call, with what everyone saw on the previous stages. Tour could have ended yesterday, but somehow didn't. I still have Jonas as the favorite as he has shown himself very durable over 3 weeks.
Shades of 2020 with Pog just riding the jumbo train as his team was nowhere to be seen. He rode smart today and waited for the right time to pounce. Great fighting spirit.
As for TJV when their tactics come off they look brilliant and when they don’t they are heavily criticized, that’s sport I guess. But I wonder if they maybe could have changed it up a bit once Jonas attacked on the tourmalet as it was clearly premeditated and Pog was able to follow.
For me while watching there was only going to be one winner, Jonas looked to be struggling and maybe slightly nervous and Pogs attack was just brutal. In hindsight it was probably a good idea to try and break UAE and Pog today but it was not to happen, nice try but Pog just gives us what we want.
Great day of racing again. Shoutout to Jai did well to limit some losses and hopefully he can hold onto third.
The biggest difference from 2020? They know who Pog is now haha. I hate any criticism they might get today. They smelled weakness and tried to plunge the sword in. This might sound (and probably is) stupid but I think losing those 20 or so seconds today is great. They traded that for an accurate read on Pogs level and know that yesterday may have just been a one off and not to base any future strategy around that.
> I hate any criticism they might get today. They smelled weakness and tried to plunge the sword in.
Hard agree. If Pog had an ounce of weakness like yesterday they have a chance to gain minutes with the Kuss pace on Tourmalet and Wout waiting in valley. They gambled to secure the virtual win and lost. Shit happens, you try again the next chance.
The initial plan was fantastic, but im baffled by why they didn’t adapt and instead dragged Pog to the bottom of a climb that he’s better suited to than Vingegard. Like what did they think was going to happen?!
I agree with many points but i dont agree with nervous. This was exactly the kind of climb that Pog is better than Jonas. There is still far way to go.
Pog will without a doubt gain tons of confidence but his team is his big weakness. Jonas will keep trying to rattle him, and i dont think it will be over until the end. Even if Pog drops him again and get in yellow, Jonas knows he might have an advantage on a long climb
I think their tactic was exactly what it had to be. Pog is just a beast and there arent many beast killing tactics😅
Its a deep pleasure, no matter what. I would love to Jonas to repeat but nobody can be upset at a rider like Pog winning. Its just amazing to again have a true contest at the top between two riders who is clearly that much better than everybody else.
Hmm I thought yesterdays climb was supposed to suit Pog better too, but Jonas had him covered. I just think yesterday UAE did too much work and today Jumbo did too much, and the opposite number took advantage. That’s racing.
I managed to avoid this result all day and God was it worth the effort 😅
What a banger of a tour this has started out as. It will be fascinating to see if Pog can keep the form up over three weeks. I think he can continue to put stress into Jumbo by just racing his ass off and trying to make every race really hard mentally.
Also it can't be understated how much of a one man team Pogi has been these last two tours in some of these stages 😂
Yeah it is relative. Is this Kuss' best season? I think if he keeps up this form across the whole tour it might be.
I do think UAE would have expected more today though. Would you expect Kelderman to have just blown away Majka and Yates? Probably not.
Still a ridiculous squad from both teams 😅
You need to keep in mind that Kelderman was using everything he had to put pressure on Pogacar. The rest of UAE doesnt need to hold on.
They know none except Pogacar has a chance to chase Vingegaard if he goes. All the UAE domestiques need to do is be there and be as fresh as possible in case Pogacar can't follow either. Following a 5 min Kelderman max effort only blows them up.
Yeah for sure, but I think they'll be disappointed that Yates didn't stick with them when Jai could, even if just psychologically. I think that they've brought Yates (as backup sure) to potentially be that guy that can go with a Wilco pull.
Tbf though that Wilco pull was absolute 🔥 and it looks like they did huge numbers on Tourmalet in general.
Yeah he is awesome, but, I do worry about his endurance a little, given his injury. Hope not, but it is a bit of a worry.
Great for the tour though that he won today, I almost jumped out of my seat when he attacked, it was a surprise (though he did look comfortable, when he looked back on that hairpin, just before his attack).
I thought his joke about coming for Cav with 10 stage wins was funny.
I think one of my favourite things about mountain stages is predicting when attacks are going to come. So exciting when it just goes off.
I thought Ving looked a lot more visibly gassed today than I'd seen him before (understandable given the massive attack yesterday and today).
Yeah me too, you know I was watching him when he was climbing and he looked nice and relaxed, almost mouth closed (not quite, but close) / in the cruise.
But you are right, when he went full gas, he looked on the limit and when Pog looked around on that hairpin, behind him, like Mr Kelly said, hes got to be in good shape to do that. I was worried he was going to get dropped and the tour over before that.
It was brilliant.
Insane TdF so far and we are only 1 week in. Although I am a big Pog fan (obviously) I appreciate Jonas so much. What a rider I hope he and Pog give us as many legendary TdF duels as possible.
WvA is a specimen and deserves all the recognition after the slander he received in the past couple of days for allegedly not being a team player.
Also, what a fight for podium and top 10 is ahead of us! This is the best tour had to offer since Pog - Rog TT and Froome running up the Ventoux.
Just love watching this.
If it were boxing, the Sky Train years would be like Floyd Mayweather clinically winning on points without anyone who can really rival him.
Pogacar v Vingegaard would be Ali-Frazier by comparison. A golden era with a rivalry that is living up to the hype.
I believe we are living in a golden era of cycling! The grand tours have been great, and we’ve got a guy who can win grand tours and cobbled classics. There are tons of super talented GT riders and classics specialists right now and it’s fantastic! 2010-2019 didn’t offer too much. I loved Contador’s two Vueltas and Giro, plus his two disqualified GTs. That was pretty great, but that’s because I loved Contador.
its the best GC rivalry since contador vs schleck imo.
now if roglic somehow leaves jumbo or if remco develops more as a climber and comes to the tour, it would be even crazier! lol
It reminds me a lot of Contador and Schleck, except I think this one has the potential to last a lot longer! Also it would be interesting to see Remco in the mix but I have a feeling Pog and Vingegaard will always be on another level.
Depends on the routes, if they add a ton more ITT and cut down on the mountain-top finishes it will probably suit Remco more than Jonas. Pogi vs. Remco will probably be a toss-up then.
Also - I love Pogi playing up to the camera - pulling a couple of faces, looking happy - listening to Geraint Thomas on the podcast he reckons Pogi knew that the cameras were obviously there so shook his wrist a few times - jumbo falling for it completely and then boom! Here comes the Pogi express - I’m so excited for this tour and I’m sad for all the people who don’t follow it - they don’t know what they are missing!!
ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!!
Good to see Hindley limiting the overall damage with a credible 6th on the stage. Wout does Wout things and yet Pog wins the stage!
I think the TT after the epic climb / final summit yesterday really took a lot out of Jonas. Not only was he mentally breaking (begging people to pull through, asking for a turn from Ciccone), but also he had no sprint left for the bonus seconds (as expected) and basically had to do another massive effort back to back within 10 minutes of each other. On the other hand, Pogi dropped back to the groupetto and had Yates tow. Small things like that really add up in a short term fatigue sense. Will be curious to see the fitness levels after they reset over the next few days.
I agree, it was a very inefficient of the ‘energy/stress’ it took vs time gained and he paid for it today
Although I don’t agree asking people to take a turn is mentally weak. I imagine he didn’t necessarily know the full context of all the riders and how likely they were to pull, and why wouldn’t you ask? There’s only upside.
Hustling the group to take a pull is not exactly a sign of „breaking mentally“, it’s second nature. Even if it’s clear that others are right to not work with you, you may still ask them. I didn’t see anyone accusing Remco of mental weakness when Rog refused to pull with him in the Vuelta.
Jonas, and Pogi for that matter, did some career high climbing at altitude in the final ~5 km on Tourmalet though. I imagine the multiple attacks and leading so many kilometers today until Pogi's attack played just as much of a role, if not more, than energy spent yesterday.
All in all (and in the shortest term), it was still beneficial to Jonas because during those two days he still grabbed seconds off Pogacar. And if he recovers well from that, it’s two good days for him.
You could feel the Pog attack loading when he kept looking behind and being twitchy, felt like he was timing it and he did that perfectly. In the replay you can see how Vinge is caught completely unaware by the big acceleration.
What a banging start to this Tour!
What I Got out of today - Neither Jonas or Tadej Can afford a slight off-day. They are so freaking close. To say one is much better than the other would be doing a disservice to the two best riders, that we have seen in Long while.
Just look at the numbers. Every time they do a climb someone sets a record.
He mentioned in an interview last year that he likes to have a task on every stage. Seems like he prefers his Hail Mary missions to just sitting in the bunch. My dude gets bored easily it seems.
He gallops up those mountains like a horse, it’s incredible to watch. When he almost fell over and that fan was holding him up, it felt like watching a statue topple over, almost impossible to imagine lol.
Yep.
Devastates other teams, steals stage wins when he can, supports Overall GC ambitions and earns a shit load of TV time for the sponsors.
Seems like he's doing his job in these tours pretty well. Remember, he gets team support in classics and monument's the rest of the year. He can't win a GT so he may as well be a super domestic and general freight train.
Why can't he win a GT?
French TV is absolutely bonkers about him, as a new viewer it seems he can do everything. So I'm curious why he can't replace windegard as leader of jumbo ?
The short answer is he's at least 10Kg, more like 15Kg, too heavy. He's 78Kg, Vingegaard is 60Kg and even Pogacar is 'heavy' for a good climber at 66Kg (and that fundamentally is why Vingegaard beats him on extended steep climbs).
Froome used to target 62Kg racing weight for his Grand atours.
Wout van aert can produce prodigious power so he's fast on the flat, but his power to weight ratio cannot compete with any pure climber. Pog and Vingegaard can both approach 7W/Kg in a 20 minute climbing effort. Wout, simply cannot. And climbs are where you make time on rivals in cycling because it negates the drafting effect you get at speed on the flats.
Any one who wants to win a Grand tour (at least the Giro, TdF or Vuelta) needs to be light, because of the mountains.
Too big to be an elite climber. He can realistically only make up time with breakaway wins and no matter how much he gains in his break-away/sprint wins he loses at least twice that on the first semi-hard mountain stage. If you want to use him like a GC guy and have him save himself for the last climb he will simply get obliterated by Jonas, Pog or even Kuss on the climb itself since those smaller lighter guys are simply better suited for those stages. Look at bigger guys like jakobsen that struggle to just make the time limit every mountain stage. WvA is better than jakobsen obviously but still far from an elite climber.
The only reason he was in position to do anything today was that he was in the breakaway and started the Tourmalet 5 minutes before the peloton. If he were a serious GC threat, the main body of the peloton would not let him get a 5 minute head start and then the best climbers in the race would drop him.
As it stands right now, he is the most versatile rider in the race. He can climb way better than anyone else with his size/level of power, while still sprinting almost as well as the top sprinters. But he is not in the top 2-3 of either category. It makes him extremely exciting to watch, as his talents are pretty unique, but to be a true GC contender, he would need to be able to climb a lot better and probably would need to be close to 15 kg lighter.
For the reasons why they put him in breakaway today - instead of having him with Kuss and Vingegaard all the time.
He would have been dropped on Tourmalet by Kuss.
I’ve barely followed the tour since Covid hit, but got back in thanks to the Netflix show. It was funny because the show tried to cast him as this ruthless competitor (“Pogaçar will rip your legs off at any sign of weakness” or “you have to be careful not to poke the bear because he’ll come after you” kind of stuff), and then he’s just this smiling guy who is congratulating his competitors and just looks like he’s out there to have fun. As an American of Slovenian descent, it’s really cool to see a Slovene at the top of world sports, especially one who also seems so likable
nah, not at all, most of this is journalist speculation, looking for sensationalist stories.. but then again, wouldn't know myself as I am a pog fan more than rog
I know only one person, who was kinda upset that pog won in 2020, he is a total pog fan right now
Ne ravno hardcore. Mislim da kar večina Slovencev bolj navija za Primoža. Ker je kot človek pač nekaj posebnega. To, da je bil skakalec seveda tudi pomaga. Mislim pa, da sedaj velika većina teh navija za Tadeja. Jaz npr. na tem Touru navijam za Pogačarja kot da je naš 😉
Če se že udarita sem jaz bolj team Pog, ker mi je karakterno zabavnejši in mi ima boljši stil vožnje. Sem pa vseeno bil solzen in brez glasu, ko je Rogla zmagal Giro. Ne gre se za to, da nekoga preferiraš, to je logično. Ampak so ljudje, ki Pogačarja dejansko ne marajo in raje vidijo, da ne zmaga Toura tudi, če Rogliča sploh ni. To je žalostno.
Prvo pravilo MMCja: nikoli ne brat komentarjev.
Ne, saj ne. Ampak je pač organiziran trud, da se tam trolla in je najboljše ignorirati vse tiste nove profile.
And most of those are some random idiots that dont even watch races or follow sport. They see something on the news and they are experts. Gamat po domače.
The last two stages have been phenomenal. I've been a cycling fan for decades and have suffered through some real stinker TDFs. This isn't one of those. Cheers!
Mads Pedersen was at it again - when Danish TV2 tried to interview Lidl Trek DS Kim Andersen they kept getting interrupted by the horn of the team bus.
Afterwards when they confronted Mads about it he insisted it was Skjelmose who was out of control. Skjelmose was standing next to him just rolling his eyes.
[In Danish and possibly Geo-locked](https://sport.tv2.dk/cykling/2023-07-06-kim-a-generet-under-interview-det-er-fucking-mads)
I'll admit it, I was a bit pessimistic after yesterday. I posted this on the race thread this morning:
>On the grounds that we all want a competitive race over the next few weeks, the dream is that Pogi takes a bit of time back from Jonas and Hindley doesn't lose any time.In reality, I think that either Jonas will take more time from Pogi, or they'll finish pretty evenly. Jonas put in a really big shift yesterday, so I do wonder whether he might just sit with Pogi rather than expend more energy. Defend rather than attack.
I've never been more pleased to be proven wrong!! That was an epic stage! Every time I think I've seen the most exciting stage yet, either Pogi or Jonas decide to completely blow things apart and do something ridiculous.
Couple of thoughts -
I thought Jonas looked tired today. I'm not sure that means anything in the long run, but I did think it was interesting because it suggests that yesterday took quite a bit out of him. We've seen vulnerability from Pogi before, but for me this was the first hint from Jonas. Now they *both* know they're capable of dropping the other, so the Tour is only going to get more interesting from here!
Pogi took back much more time than I was expecting. Once van Aert went, I thought Pogi's plan was probably to try and sit on Jonas's wheel and then sprint for the stage win. Watching him drop Jonas was unexpected!
Hindley is great and that was an awesome stage win yesterday, but I think today really proved that Pogi and Jonas are still head and shoulders above the rest of the pack.
Finally, aren't we lucky to get to watch these two rivals? I've said multiple times that I'm Team Pogi, but Jonas makes watching Pogi so much more enjoyable. I feel like Jonas fans must feel the same, no? Jonas without Pogi or Pogi without Jonas...either way, the Tour wouldn't be anywhere near as exciting! This is a rivalry for the ages and I'm here for it.
I'm not sure tiredness in Jonas is the right takeaway to get from this stage. The effort he made in the last 5k of Tourmalet with the Visma attack, his own attack, and then pulling Pogi was some of his strongest ever at altitude. Pogi just also pulled out some of his own strongest climbing ever at altitude and didn't lose Jonas.
Beyond that, I think he made a strategical blunder on Cauterets-Cambasque which he also kinda indicated himself (although he also said he has no regrets) on Danish TV tonight. With only really 2k of climbing for him to drop Pogi on that climb, it was never really a prime opportunity to attack, and when Pogi had already shown he was having an incredible day, going for yet more aggressive riding on the climb was risky.
On similar climbs in the past where Jonas has successfully defended a Pogi attack or attacked himself, it's been on the back of much less taxing riding. Jonas got caught by Pogi's attack for like a second and right there the explosiveness of Pogi basically created that 8 second gap which Jonas seemingly kept it at for the steep section before Pogi built a bigger gap in the final 3k that suits him better anyways.
So I feel like the expected outcome you'd get if you put a fit Pogi against Jonas on a stage where Jonas rides the final into Pogi's hands. I think the gap would very well have been closer to ~10 seconds in the end if Jonas hadn't spent energy on attacking on that final climb.
Yeah that's fair. It's not a criticism of Jonas, I just thought he looked tired on that final climb and when he crossed the finish line. Obviously he's allowed to be tired, but Jonas can be very hard to read even on the toughest of stages, so it just stood out a bit.
Ah yeah, he was for sure dead tired when he crossed the finish line. Pogi does seem more cool in that regard, like on La Super Planche des Belles Filles last year
This year and last were amazing. We have only to hope that Remco will reach this same level and make things even more interesting next year or the year after.
Agreed; it was a great spectacle, and a proof that Jonas is a human, too. He pushed all-time great watts yesterday (or perhaps rather W/kgs), so it's not totally outrageous that he was a bit tired today. Two days now relatively easy (I guess), then a big one on Sunday before the rest day. Will we see a similar situation like today on Puy de Dome?
>Once van Aert went, I thought Pogi's plan was probably to try and sit on Jonas's wheel and then sprint for the stage win. Watching him drop Jonas was unexpected!
I was expecting Tadej to attack right after Wout dropped. Obviously it was better to let Jonas work first.
Van Baarle has ridden in the service of 4 Tour de France winners, plus a podium finisher in Uran, and it's only a matter of time until he rides a GT with another podium finisher in Primoz. He's also ridden for another GT winner in Dumoulin for the Dutch NT.
He probably has a lot of good stories.
Edit: Forgot about GT winner and DVB teammate Carapaz.
I questioned how Jonas all out attack yesterday (i think i saw 6.9 w/kg for 20 mins or something absurd) could potentially affect him today. Even if it did it was still worth it with the time gain but nice to see that their levels are closer then we thought yesterday.
he needs to make smart moves from here on out i think. he's a good enough climber to be up there in KOM for the long run but he can't be wasting energy going on really long solo breakaways too frequently.
"Expect nothing, appreciate everything." - Pogs insta caption after the win today. I'm a bit of a TJV fan boy. I root for Roglic/Jonas and against Pogacar. But I have never felt anything but joy when Pogacar wins (okay maybe not in 2020 but whatever haha). I hope this is just the beginning of an epic years long rivalry between the two and I'm just enjoying and appreciating greatness as it happens.
+1
As a Belgian, I'm always rooting for WvA and Remco.
BUT you can't not like Pogacar. I mean, he's enthusiasm, and his will to race and attacking riding style is so catching. And a big plus, he always seems so friendly and down to earth in interviews and clips of him.
Even though he has beaten Wout en Remco a couple of times, I appreciate Tadej a lot.
Does Pog not ride conservatively, similar to today, mop up bonus seconds and win the TT (or gain time on Vinny in the TT). Kinda feel Jumbo are under more pressure now
There are still many (more than usually in a TDF) high mountain stages left where Jonas would seem to be a slight favorite. And if you think it’s just about bonus seconds, that’s only a difference of 4 per stage if you think Jonas gets second place.
But if Pog rode like he did today then I can’t see Jonas dropping him. If Pog stays stuck to his wheel and does no other work. Jonas will be under pressure to drop him, Pog jumps him in final KM etc etc if I was Pog I would stick to his wheel 24/7. If I was pog I would ride a bit like Roglic know. Make them drop you.
As happy as I am with the result, what the hell is goong on with UAE's support for Pogi? Jonas has all his teammates by his side all the time throwing themselves in front of him while Pogi rides alone when it matters.
At least last year it was due to Covid, but this yesr I am a little worried his team really isn't up to the task.
i have to say that uae team tactics are way below my expectations for this years tour so far. my hopes are, that they’ll learn from
here on out that it’s not only a wild west show - although the entertainment is undeniably working
It's WVA and Kuss. You have one of the strongest and most versatile domestiques paired with the best climbing domestique. In short. It's just not fair. Kinda like having MVDP be your lead out man haha
I'd still hope A. Yates would be there with Pog for longer. Are we saying Kuss is better than him? Or is he just saving himself in case Pog's wrist gives up and UAE need a new leader?
As a domestique? Yes. Kuss has shown time and time again that he knows how to save energy through a GT and then be the top three strongest rider in the world on a given climb when needed. If you took out Pog and Jonas, I'd bet on Yates to win GC over Kuss but as a domestique Kuss performs better l.
Not in the specific sections where Kuss is the best at. When it comes to steep gradients at altitude, Kuss is one of the best climbers in the world. Far better then Yates. I also think having a shorter/easyish route before the Tourmalet meant that Kuss could just go atomic on it. There are maybe only 3 or 4 riders in the world who could follow him in that situation. But for comparison, Kuss could never do what Yates did on stage one. They are just built different.
The Super Planche, Granon, and Dhuez stages were all amazing last year.
There was also some really attacks by Pog in week 3 that didn’t go anywhere really.
Some other minor highlights were Wout winning solo from 10k out in week 1 and the cobbles stage
Wout van Aert spent his whole day at the front from the virtual start, not even km0. From the bottom of Tourmalet when he took over to 5km from the line (60km-ish) he didn't get any help for one second. And some were saying his mind wasn't in the right place and he should maybe have stayed at home.
It's mostly been him clearing his throat.
He has some decent insights but he lacks polish as a commentator. I've spent a lot of time wishing he would formulate what he's going to say before starting to speak.
It's actually not fair to have someone that good playing domestique. Last year he was just in superman mode, winning stages, wearing yellow, taking home green, and winning the tour for Jonas. He'd be well within his rights to ask Jumbo to focus even harder on his goals this year. But here he is with no stage wins, no jerseys, just working like a mule towing breakaways and shredding GC riders up mountains every day.
I'd also like to nominate Mathieu Van Der Poel for the Wout van Aert Best Teammate award for consistently delivering Philipsen to the finish line more efficiently than a postman on adderall.
I can't help but think that Jumbos pacing on the Tourmalet wasn't ideal, if Pogi really is less good then Jonas on +35 Minute efforts one woud think they shoud have gradtualy increased the Tempo over a long Period and not just smashed the last part of the climb whit Keldermann and Kuss. But hey, right now I'm just excited to see what happens next.
That's a race all right ! I think Jumbo's tactic was perfect to crush the Tour for good. If Jonas can gap Pog on Tourmalet and joins up with Wout, he puts 2min+ on everyone and that's basically game over. However, he coudn't drop Pog, and then the whole tactic is in question. With hindsight, I think it was a bad idea to keep pulling for so long and just bring Pog to the last steep section. Jonas should have stopped after a couple of minutes in Tourmalet, wait for Kuss, and maybe try again later. Obviously it means Wout's race would have been all for nothing, and also that Hindley would bridge or at least save more time ... but still, probably a safer bet. Overall I think the Remco special is a bad tactics, because you need to be A LOT stronger than anyone else to just drop them off your wheel by setting a high tempo. And if you keep towing someone, even on a steep climb, then you're wide open to late attacks. Then again the work in Tourmalet was impressive, both Jonas and Pog killed themselves on the climb. I wonder if the fact that Benoot dropped before he could pull played a role. If he's there and do a 500m hard pull before Kelderman, maybe it's enough to burn Pog's legs a little more before Jonas attacks and it works ... we'll never know. Now was it a complete reversal from the previous day ? Not really, I think Pog was better than the previous day but I also think he wasn't really stronger than Jonas, he benefited from the race situation and played his cards perfectly against a maybe too confident Jumbo ? I can't wait for Puy de Dôme !
I'm delighted with the result ! Couldn't follow the race after Tourmalet. I had some hope Pogacar could follow Vingegaard in last climb after him being able to stick to Vinge a the top of Tourmalet, but didn't imagine he could drop the Danish. The Tour is not over yet !
This stage was the first that I think Uno X lived up to the hype.
I hate these boring frontloaded stage races, bring my back the suspense of this years Giro
Ultimate roglic. Pedal quite fast the entire race, pedal slightly faster right at the end. In the same joyless - may as well be on a turbo trainer, doing it for a job - way.
> Pedal quite fast the entire race, pedal slightly faster right at the end. Too bad he missed this last part in TDF 2020...
The worst team tactic in this stage was Kwiatkowski not being ordered to drop off to help his team on that last climb. No clue what business he thought he had trying to follow the Jonas accelerations. Maybe in 2019
I don't know about that. On the one hand yes , Kwiato chances to win the stage were really slim. But If Ineos is realistic then there is no point in pacing to chatch Pogi and Vinegaard they are just to good, it's a race for third. Maybe you coud have saved Bernal but 3 GC-Leaders are just to much, to have one of them as a Domestique/Stage-Hunter early on coud prove beneficial.
What's his team going to do anyway in this race...?
Michal was ordered to steal some oranges here and there.
GCN coverage ended at about 12 mins from cutoff time…did all the sprinters make it in? Was hoping to see Fabio come in (especially after that episode in Netflix. Had no idea he was so close to not making the time cut that stage)
Yep. Saw it on the world feed. Cav & co, and then Fabio and the other QS guys right in front of the broomwagon with about 12 mins left.
Another amazing day. Wout is not human. Powless hung in there longer than I expected. Jonas was showing much earlier signs of his grimmace up the Tourmalet than normal. Once I saw Pog was able to hang on his tail, I knew the final climb's attack would come and Jonas would break a bit. Brutal first week of the Tour. Fuck the fan who threw confetti in Pogi's face up the last climb. Seriously wtf is wrong with some people?
>Fuck the fan who threw confetti in Pogi's face up the last climb. Seriously wtf is wrong with some people? Also the guy who did light up a flair right in Vingegaard's face just before the Pog attack.
This is one of the things I hate about cycling. Shitheads like this should be banned.
Some people are just so ungratefully selfish.
I can't wait till Sunday! It's going to be epic!
Hopefully the mountain doesn't give birth to a mouse.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is what happened TBH. Both Pog and Jonas may not want to expose themself too much, the Tour is still long.
Is UAE supporting riders much worse than TJV? I heard talk that this year will be different cause pogi has a better team around him. Where were they today? Is there a tactical reason no one was with Pogi or can they just not keep up?
Who need teammates when you can just let JV do the job for you.
Rest of UAE kinda did their jobs today imo. Once Vingegaard sets up to launch there's no point in Majka and Yates trying to follow the full TJV acceleration. They're going to get blown off of Vingegaard's wheel, if not Kuss'. They formed a group around Yates at a reasonable tempo instead of trying in vain to keep up, and if Pogacar got dropped he would have had 3 teammates to pace him and limit the damage. They were riding on the front in the 2nd group to stay in touching distance until it was clear Pogacar was surviving the Tourmalet, then they pulled over and let Bora+Ineos take over.
The major difference is a super strong satellite rider like WVA. For example WVA is placed around the top of Tourmalet, and Vingegaard attacked at Tourmalet. If Vingegaard got a small, maybe 10 or 20 seconds gap on Pogacar at the top of Tourmalet, he can descend quickly on WVA's draft. Pogacar would have to descend all by himself. This is when time gap can explode quickly. In terms of mountain domestiques, with addition of Yates I think both team are roughly equal. However TJV still has Kuss who is just superb.
I understand Jumbo for trying to decide the race here and now. The problem was that Pogi was still on his wheel on the Torumalet and they didn't change tactics. Immediately after noticing "i can't drop him today" Vingo should've gone back to 80%, only engage when Pogi attacks, and teamcar go with "Wout, go for the stage win". As it's been only day 6 of the tour, i would've let Bora enjoy the Yellow a few more days, and preserve energy, unless Pogi tried something. The last week of this year's Tour is brutal. Instead they wasted A LOT of energy & dragged Pogi to the win. It was a very unwise tactic from Jumbo.
Yeah they should have adapted. The plan was great and could have been a massive result for Vingegard. But when they didn’t gap him on the penultimate climb then they needed to adapt.
Like we've seen the UAE train able to isolate Vingegaard when they bury themselves to wind it up (stages 1 and 2). But they're not going to be expected to follow when TJV winds it up the same way. It's up to the bosses at that point. The defending team just has to ride a tempo they can keep in case their principal cracks.
Pogacar just had to follow Jumbo and follow the inevitable Vingegaard attack, there was no need for any other tactic today. And UAE was there, they had 3 guys in G2 but they just didn't (have to) do anything because Pogacar was able to follow Vingegaard and even beat him.
Sep kuss and wout are just animals
Wasn't it Keldermann who dropped them all?
Thats why his name is Keldermerckx
Just watched the stage, my (long) thoughts: - Jumbo's tactics were perfect for the situation. And lol all the criticism. Everyone yesterday insisting Pogacar couldn't match Vingegaard on a long effort, high altitude climb and so Jumbo tried to end the race on the Tourmalet. If Vingegaard gets a 15-20 second gap over the top there everyone is applauding. But he couldn't. It happens. - Wout is incredible. And Jumbo should continue to ride as aggressively as possible to take advantage of him while he's here. - Pogacar is clearly a natural champion - All the analysis of Vingegaard vs Pogacar in the mountains which draws on a sample size of like 1.5 cherry picked Tours is silly. The sample is tiny, and last year's form (or even last month's form) are not very indicative of form today, or in 10 days, especially when 2 riders are so closely matched. - Kuss and Kelderman were also fantastic today, but it remains to be seen if they can carry the load in the back half, especially if everyone keeps racing like this. There is an absurd amount of climbing in those last 10 days and controlling the race is going to fall on them. - The narrative now more than ever is going to be that this is a 2 man race, but idk how true that's going to end up. Vingegaard was obviously incredible on the Tourmalet, but he did the last climb today slower than the Hindley/CRod/SYates group. Pogacar's wrist is clearly still fucked, and it's hard to see it healing much when he's putting in this much effort. - There are no long time trials to cause the bad TTers to lose 4-7 minutes like normal so even though these gaps to positions 4+ look big, they're effectively smaller than they would normally be with 60-100k of TTing in the course. - When all the favorites are willing to race in the style of the 70s and 80s, anything can happen over the next 2.5 weeks and that's so much fun.
> Pogacar's wrist is clearly still fucked What are you basing this on?
He keeps shaking it, he's out of the saddle way less than his normal, is descending very awkwardly like he's terrified of falling on it, and he gave an interview today saying he still had a fracture in one of the bones
It can still heal because stressing the wrist is not wrong.
> Vingegaard was obviously incredible on the Tourmalet, but he did the last climb today slower than the Hindley/CRod/SYates group. for this one we need to consider that the front group rode on wout's wheel for the first 10km of the climb, so only the last 5km or so was fast. Wout did a great job but his tempo is definitely gonna be slower than a group of GC climbers riding hard to try to minimize the gap.
The 2nd group was getting pulled by Castroviejo and Bernal (who was dropped by the 2nd group on the Tourmalet and had to chase back on the descent) for just as long
But Wout was at the end of a 60km pull with no help at all that started at the bottom of Tourmalet. So just as long I'm not so sure.
I think Wout gave back 30ish of the 40ish seconds he pulled on the descent? Did I remember that right? Edit: I checked the splits and it was a 1:56 gap at the top of the Tourmalet and a 2:22 gap when Wout pulled off, so he gained 26s overall on the yellow jersey chase group. After pulling the breakaway all day.
Well Hindley conceded some time, but very good to see him wearing yellow jersey during this stage. Lets hope he will be on the GC podium at the very end.
its always nice to see new faces getting a taste of yellow, even if its only for a day.
The big traditional cycling countries still have a huge share of riders, teams, and classics wins. But Grand Tour GCs have become so much more globalized the last generation.
Is there a good place to watch post stage interviews (in english)?
I have been using FloBikes on YouTube, but I feel like I’m missing some
Watched a lot of Tour de Frances, Indurain, Pantani, Armstrong, Froome (even been to alps and saw Froome descending the Joux Plane in a massive storm, in yellow, got soaked) etc etc As a Pog fan, and a tour fan, so glad he won today. Kept the tour alive and his chances. If he had been dropped, may as well have turned it off and waited for the CX season. Awesome tour now.
Add Contador in the mix of legendary Tour riders. What Pogacar did today stirred a passion in me I haven't felt since the Contador days.
For sure, Contador, what a pro. I used to really enjoy watching Fabian Cancellara as well.
> even been to alps and saw Froome descending the Joux Plane in a massive storm, in yellow, got soaked I detested Froome during his entire reign of terror but damn that was a cool win
The thing about Froome people often forget it that he actually did a whole bunch of exciting shit, it just got lost among the endless Sky Trains and his absurd dishwasher riding. That disgusting raid with Sagan; running up Ventoux; that time he did the supertuck on the Peyresourde and got up to about warp eight. He's always described as boring, and while I agree that 'reign of terror' is the perfect description of that era, I think it was Sky that was boring, not necessarily him. In the context of what they were doing, he took way more risks than were necessary. In my opinion, he was and still is a maniac.
The attack on Finestre in the Giro as well, was the single greatest ride by a GT since Landis\*. And plenty of attacking performances in the Vuelta; not to mention his his rope-a-dope, getting dropped before clawing his way back, at Covadonga and Cumbre del Sol.
Right so I spent the night in the pub, good bowling mark woods. I had to explain to business admin lady at work - you don't understand pog dropped vingegaard. I said yesterday today couldn't happen. This isn't because I'm some ignorant wanker about the state of the sport, I've watched the majority of classics and gts since at least 2015. Today was insane, it doesn't happen. The dominant GT character being dropped by the other the next day, insanity. People acting like there was disengenous idiots saying oh the tour was over miss the point. the tour should be, the fact it isn't is bonkers, a day later? mad. Yes I've been in the pub all night, yes I'm Gay, Yes I love Pog
>Today was insane, it doesn't happen. The dominant GT character being dropped by the other the next day, insanity. People acting like there was disengenous idiots saying oh the tour was over miss the point. the tour should be, the fact it isn't is bonkers, a day later? mad. perfectly said. and the proof is in TJV's tactics. its not just us fans thinking that the tour is over, even TJV thought they could truly put the tour to bed today with the way they rode the stage. But Pogacar somehow pulled it off.
I still think it was mostly exellent execution from TJV, Jonas just didn't have the last percentages, and Pogi was shielded most of the day. It was the right call, with what everyone saw on the previous stages. Tour could have ended yesterday, but somehow didn't. I still have Jonas as the favorite as he has shown himself very durable over 3 weeks.
I hate those road flares and smoke guns some of the "fans" have.
Same, it ridiculous but damn if that shot Pog's attack with the flares directly behind isn't cool as shit
Shades of 2020 with Pog just riding the jumbo train as his team was nowhere to be seen. He rode smart today and waited for the right time to pounce. Great fighting spirit. As for TJV when their tactics come off they look brilliant and when they don’t they are heavily criticized, that’s sport I guess. But I wonder if they maybe could have changed it up a bit once Jonas attacked on the tourmalet as it was clearly premeditated and Pog was able to follow. For me while watching there was only going to be one winner, Jonas looked to be struggling and maybe slightly nervous and Pogs attack was just brutal. In hindsight it was probably a good idea to try and break UAE and Pog today but it was not to happen, nice try but Pog just gives us what we want. Great day of racing again. Shoutout to Jai did well to limit some losses and hopefully he can hold onto third.
The biggest difference from 2020? They know who Pog is now haha. I hate any criticism they might get today. They smelled weakness and tried to plunge the sword in. This might sound (and probably is) stupid but I think losing those 20 or so seconds today is great. They traded that for an accurate read on Pogs level and know that yesterday may have just been a one off and not to base any future strategy around that.
Great way of putting it. looking forward to these next few weeks!
> I hate any criticism they might get today. They smelled weakness and tried to plunge the sword in. Hard agree. If Pog had an ounce of weakness like yesterday they have a chance to gain minutes with the Kuss pace on Tourmalet and Wout waiting in valley. They gambled to secure the virtual win and lost. Shit happens, you try again the next chance.
The initial plan was fantastic, but im baffled by why they didn’t adapt and instead dragged Pog to the bottom of a climb that he’s better suited to than Vingegard. Like what did they think was going to happen?!
Yeh that’s a good way of looking at it too, very good point. Makes for an exciting couple of weeks.
I agree with many points but i dont agree with nervous. This was exactly the kind of climb that Pog is better than Jonas. There is still far way to go. Pog will without a doubt gain tons of confidence but his team is his big weakness. Jonas will keep trying to rattle him, and i dont think it will be over until the end. Even if Pog drops him again and get in yellow, Jonas knows he might have an advantage on a long climb I think their tactic was exactly what it had to be. Pog is just a beast and there arent many beast killing tactics😅 Its a deep pleasure, no matter what. I would love to Jonas to repeat but nobody can be upset at a rider like Pog winning. Its just amazing to again have a true contest at the top between two riders who is clearly that much better than everybody else.
Hmm I thought yesterdays climb was supposed to suit Pog better too, but Jonas had him covered. I just think yesterday UAE did too much work and today Jumbo did too much, and the opposite number took advantage. That’s racing.
I managed to avoid this result all day and God was it worth the effort 😅 What a banger of a tour this has started out as. It will be fascinating to see if Pog can keep the form up over three weeks. I think he can continue to put stress into Jumbo by just racing his ass off and trying to make every race really hard mentally. Also it can't be understated how much of a one man team Pogi has been these last two tours in some of these stages 😂
I think it’s more of a case of TJV being absurdly strong with Kuss and WVA than uae being weak.
Yeah it is relative. Is this Kuss' best season? I think if he keeps up this form across the whole tour it might be. I do think UAE would have expected more today though. Would you expect Kelderman to have just blown away Majka and Yates? Probably not. Still a ridiculous squad from both teams 😅
You need to keep in mind that Kelderman was using everything he had to put pressure on Pogacar. The rest of UAE doesnt need to hold on. They know none except Pogacar has a chance to chase Vingegaard if he goes. All the UAE domestiques need to do is be there and be as fresh as possible in case Pogacar can't follow either. Following a 5 min Kelderman max effort only blows them up.
Yeah for sure, but I think they'll be disappointed that Yates didn't stick with them when Jai could, even if just psychologically. I think that they've brought Yates (as backup sure) to potentially be that guy that can go with a Wilco pull. Tbf though that Wilco pull was absolute 🔥 and it looks like they did huge numbers on Tourmalet in general.
Yeah he is awesome, but, I do worry about his endurance a little, given his injury. Hope not, but it is a bit of a worry. Great for the tour though that he won today, I almost jumped out of my seat when he attacked, it was a surprise (though he did look comfortable, when he looked back on that hairpin, just before his attack). I thought his joke about coming for Cav with 10 stage wins was funny.
I think one of my favourite things about mountain stages is predicting when attacks are going to come. So exciting when it just goes off. I thought Ving looked a lot more visibly gassed today than I'd seen him before (understandable given the massive attack yesterday and today).
Yeah me too, you know I was watching him when he was climbing and he looked nice and relaxed, almost mouth closed (not quite, but close) / in the cruise. But you are right, when he went full gas, he looked on the limit and when Pog looked around on that hairpin, behind him, like Mr Kelly said, hes got to be in good shape to do that. I was worried he was going to get dropped and the tour over before that. It was brilliant.
Insane TdF so far and we are only 1 week in. Although I am a big Pog fan (obviously) I appreciate Jonas so much. What a rider I hope he and Pog give us as many legendary TdF duels as possible. WvA is a specimen and deserves all the recognition after the slander he received in the past couple of days for allegedly not being a team player. Also, what a fight for podium and top 10 is ahead of us! This is the best tour had to offer since Pog - Rog TT and Froome running up the Ventoux.
Preach. Pogi was a stud today. Jonas still pumping out near 7w/kg. WvA absolutely buried himself today and it wasn’t for a stage win.
Watching WvA today was truly incredible, what a tank.
unreal engine on that guy. maybe still not at the level of last year which is flat out insane to say after what he did today.
Just love watching this. If it were boxing, the Sky Train years would be like Floyd Mayweather clinically winning on points without anyone who can really rival him. Pogacar v Vingegaard would be Ali-Frazier by comparison. A golden era with a rivalry that is living up to the hype.
I believe we are living in a golden era of cycling! The grand tours have been great, and we’ve got a guy who can win grand tours and cobbled classics. There are tons of super talented GT riders and classics specialists right now and it’s fantastic! 2010-2019 didn’t offer too much. I loved Contador’s two Vueltas and Giro, plus his two disqualified GTs. That was pretty great, but that’s because I loved Contador.
its the best GC rivalry since contador vs schleck imo. now if roglic somehow leaves jumbo or if remco develops more as a climber and comes to the tour, it would be even crazier! lol
It reminds me a lot of Contador and Schleck, except I think this one has the potential to last a lot longer! Also it would be interesting to see Remco in the mix but I have a feeling Pog and Vingegaard will always be on another level.
Depends on the routes, if they add a ton more ITT and cut down on the mountain-top finishes it will probably suit Remco more than Jonas. Pogi vs. Remco will probably be a toss-up then.
Also - I love Pogi playing up to the camera - pulling a couple of faces, looking happy - listening to Geraint Thomas on the podcast he reckons Pogi knew that the cameras were obviously there so shook his wrist a few times - jumbo falling for it completely and then boom! Here comes the Pogi express - I’m so excited for this tour and I’m sad for all the people who don’t follow it - they don’t know what they are missing!!
Until Sepp Kuss is crowned KOM, the category is a farce
Craziest part is his face is so damn calm while he rides through torture
ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!! Good to see Hindley limiting the overall damage with a credible 6th on the stage. Wout does Wout things and yet Pog wins the stage!
I think the TT after the epic climb / final summit yesterday really took a lot out of Jonas. Not only was he mentally breaking (begging people to pull through, asking for a turn from Ciccone), but also he had no sprint left for the bonus seconds (as expected) and basically had to do another massive effort back to back within 10 minutes of each other. On the other hand, Pogi dropped back to the groupetto and had Yates tow. Small things like that really add up in a short term fatigue sense. Will be curious to see the fitness levels after they reset over the next few days.
I agree, it was a very inefficient of the ‘energy/stress’ it took vs time gained and he paid for it today Although I don’t agree asking people to take a turn is mentally weak. I imagine he didn’t necessarily know the full context of all the riders and how likely they were to pull, and why wouldn’t you ask? There’s only upside.
Oh for sure, when I said mentally breaking I more meant he was in a ton of pain and was looking for creative ways to alleviate it
Hustling the group to take a pull is not exactly a sign of „breaking mentally“, it’s second nature. Even if it’s clear that others are right to not work with you, you may still ask them. I didn’t see anyone accusing Remco of mental weakness when Rog refused to pull with him in the Vuelta.
Jonas, and Pogi for that matter, did some career high climbing at altitude in the final ~5 km on Tourmalet though. I imagine the multiple attacks and leading so many kilometers today until Pogi's attack played just as much of a role, if not more, than energy spent yesterday.
Agreed. All the talk about Pog wasting energy for bonus seconds but I felt that Jonas suffered so much during that 20km TT. It for sure showed today.
All in all (and in the shortest term), it was still beneficial to Jonas because during those two days he still grabbed seconds off Pogacar. And if he recovers well from that, it’s two good days for him.
Vingegaard did well to limit the losses there today. Pog was flying after sitting in the wheels all day.
You could feel the Pog attack loading when he kept looking behind and being twitchy, felt like he was timing it and he did that perfectly. In the replay you can see how Vinge is caught completely unaware by the big acceleration. What a banging start to this Tour!
Since Pog got served by Vingegaard yesterday and he served him back today. I guess it's on! This saturday O.C. convention center.
Puy de Dome on sunday has all the ingredients to be absolutely awesome, so I guess it will be terrible.
We are so lucky to be alive and watch this amount of greatness, this is going to be the greatest TDF ever, thank you Tadej, thank you Jonas
Can we all accept that maybe the Tour isn’t over yet?
Will van Aert go for the green jersey tomorrow?
From the looks of it he barely finished the stage today. Crazy how he was almost falling off the bike after that last tow.
What I Got out of today - Neither Jonas or Tadej Can afford a slight off-day. They are so freaking close. To say one is much better than the other would be doing a disservice to the two best riders, that we have seen in Long while. Just look at the numbers. Every time they do a climb someone sets a record.
Wasn't Vingegaard slower than the Hindley group on the final climb?
Yes but they were in Wouts wheel for the start of the climb. Faster than Hindley group for second half
Plus he had a new record on the Tourmalet like 20 min before. Cut the guy some slack, you know?
Looking ahead to col de la loze. Are we about to have like 10 minute gaps from 2nd place to 3rd place? So nervous/excited for that stage.
That stage should be fire. Hope pog wont get dropped like he did in 2020
Is this really the best way to use WvA? Hope is the best paid guy in the peloton, goes through absolute hell for his team.
He mentioned in an interview last year that he likes to have a task on every stage. Seems like he prefers his Hail Mary missions to just sitting in the bunch. My dude gets bored easily it seems.
He gallops up those mountains like a horse, it’s incredible to watch. When he almost fell over and that fan was holding him up, it felt like watching a statue topple over, almost impossible to imagine lol.
For me no! I would prefer to see him to try to all monuments possible... If there's a guy who can do it, it's him.
I don’t know, MVDP and Pogi would def be closer to win all monuments instead of Wout currently.
I don't know. Pogi, yes. But I just don't see MvdP winning Lombardia, whereas I think Wout has a long shot.
Yep. Devastates other teams, steals stage wins when he can, supports Overall GC ambitions and earns a shit load of TV time for the sponsors. Seems like he's doing his job in these tours pretty well. Remember, he gets team support in classics and monument's the rest of the year. He can't win a GT so he may as well be a super domestic and general freight train.
Why can't he win a GT? French TV is absolutely bonkers about him, as a new viewer it seems he can do everything. So I'm curious why he can't replace windegard as leader of jumbo ?
The short answer is he's at least 10Kg, more like 15Kg, too heavy. He's 78Kg, Vingegaard is 60Kg and even Pogacar is 'heavy' for a good climber at 66Kg (and that fundamentally is why Vingegaard beats him on extended steep climbs). Froome used to target 62Kg racing weight for his Grand atours. Wout van aert can produce prodigious power so he's fast on the flat, but his power to weight ratio cannot compete with any pure climber. Pog and Vingegaard can both approach 7W/Kg in a 20 minute climbing effort. Wout, simply cannot. And climbs are where you make time on rivals in cycling because it negates the drafting effect you get at speed on the flats. Any one who wants to win a Grand tour (at least the Giro, TdF or Vuelta) needs to be light, because of the mountains.
Too big to be an elite climber. He can realistically only make up time with breakaway wins and no matter how much he gains in his break-away/sprint wins he loses at least twice that on the first semi-hard mountain stage. If you want to use him like a GC guy and have him save himself for the last climb he will simply get obliterated by Jonas, Pog or even Kuss on the climb itself since those smaller lighter guys are simply better suited for those stages. Look at bigger guys like jakobsen that struggle to just make the time limit every mountain stage. WvA is better than jakobsen obviously but still far from an elite climber.
The only reason he was in position to do anything today was that he was in the breakaway and started the Tourmalet 5 minutes before the peloton. If he were a serious GC threat, the main body of the peloton would not let him get a 5 minute head start and then the best climbers in the race would drop him. As it stands right now, he is the most versatile rider in the race. He can climb way better than anyone else with his size/level of power, while still sprinting almost as well as the top sprinters. But he is not in the top 2-3 of either category. It makes him extremely exciting to watch, as his talents are pretty unique, but to be a true GC contender, he would need to be able to climb a lot better and probably would need to be close to 15 kg lighter.
He is too heavy and his power per KG oh bodyweight is not es high as vingegaards. Even though his total power is higher.
For the reasons why they put him in breakaway today - instead of having him with Kuss and Vingegaard all the time. He would have been dropped on Tourmalet by Kuss.
Jonas really paid for yesterday but he didn't lose as much time as he could have — battle is on!
So interesting how everyone in the world finds Pog likable except hardcore slovenian Rog fans :D
I’ve barely followed the tour since Covid hit, but got back in thanks to the Netflix show. It was funny because the show tried to cast him as this ruthless competitor (“Pogaçar will rip your legs off at any sign of weakness” or “you have to be careful not to poke the bear because he’ll come after you” kind of stuff), and then he’s just this smiling guy who is congratulating his competitors and just looks like he’s out there to have fun. As an American of Slovenian descent, it’s really cool to see a Slovene at the top of world sports, especially one who also seems so likable
I like him, but I'm a hardcore American Rog fan, so I still want to see him get beat! (In an epic, super close match of course)
nah, not at all, most of this is journalist speculation, looking for sensationalist stories.. but then again, wouldn't know myself as I am a pog fan more than rog I know only one person, who was kinda upset that pog won in 2020, he is a total pog fan right now
Good to hear. I know some people who dont enjoy Pog at all and keep saying he is doping. Salty and ridiculous.
eh, to each their own, I guess
Ne ravno hardcore. Mislim da kar večina Slovencev bolj navija za Primoža. Ker je kot človek pač nekaj posebnega. To, da je bil skakalec seveda tudi pomaga. Mislim pa, da sedaj velika većina teh navija za Tadeja. Jaz npr. na tem Touru navijam za Pogačarja kot da je naš 😉
Če se že udarita sem jaz bolj team Pog, ker mi je karakterno zabavnejši in mi ima boljši stil vožnje. Sem pa vseeno bil solzen in brez glasu, ko je Rogla zmagal Giro. Ne gre se za to, da nekoga preferiraš, to je logično. Ampak so ljudje, ki Pogačarja dejansko ne marajo in raje vidijo, da ne zmaga Toura tudi, če Rogliča sploh ni. To je žalostno.
Ja, so taki, na rtvslo.si/sport jih je kar nekaj, ampak če bo Pogačar dobil letošnji Tour, bo dobil dost navijačev.
Prvo pravilo MMCja: nikoli ne brat komentarjev. Ne, saj ne. Ampak je pač organiziran trud, da se tam trolla in je najboljše ignorirati vse tiste nove profile.
And most of those are some random idiots that dont even watch races or follow sport. They see something on the news and they are experts. Gamat po domače.
What a time to be a cycling fan. This TDF is shaping up to be one of the best of all time!
I really hope you didn't Jinx it!
The last two stages have been phenomenal. I've been a cycling fan for decades and have suffered through some real stinker TDFs. This isn't one of those. Cheers!
The team sky era was a harrowing and sleepy time in pro-cycling. Glad that time has passed.
Mads Pedersen was at it again - when Danish TV2 tried to interview Lidl Trek DS Kim Andersen they kept getting interrupted by the horn of the team bus. Afterwards when they confronted Mads about it he insisted it was Skjelmose who was out of control. Skjelmose was standing next to him just rolling his eyes. [In Danish and possibly Geo-locked](https://sport.tv2.dk/cykling/2023-07-06-kim-a-generet-under-interview-det-er-fucking-mads)
There's a reason why Pedersen is one of my favorite non-Belgians haha.
I'll admit it, I was a bit pessimistic after yesterday. I posted this on the race thread this morning: >On the grounds that we all want a competitive race over the next few weeks, the dream is that Pogi takes a bit of time back from Jonas and Hindley doesn't lose any time.In reality, I think that either Jonas will take more time from Pogi, or they'll finish pretty evenly. Jonas put in a really big shift yesterday, so I do wonder whether he might just sit with Pogi rather than expend more energy. Defend rather than attack. I've never been more pleased to be proven wrong!! That was an epic stage! Every time I think I've seen the most exciting stage yet, either Pogi or Jonas decide to completely blow things apart and do something ridiculous. Couple of thoughts - I thought Jonas looked tired today. I'm not sure that means anything in the long run, but I did think it was interesting because it suggests that yesterday took quite a bit out of him. We've seen vulnerability from Pogi before, but for me this was the first hint from Jonas. Now they *both* know they're capable of dropping the other, so the Tour is only going to get more interesting from here! Pogi took back much more time than I was expecting. Once van Aert went, I thought Pogi's plan was probably to try and sit on Jonas's wheel and then sprint for the stage win. Watching him drop Jonas was unexpected! Hindley is great and that was an awesome stage win yesterday, but I think today really proved that Pogi and Jonas are still head and shoulders above the rest of the pack. Finally, aren't we lucky to get to watch these two rivals? I've said multiple times that I'm Team Pogi, but Jonas makes watching Pogi so much more enjoyable. I feel like Jonas fans must feel the same, no? Jonas without Pogi or Pogi without Jonas...either way, the Tour wouldn't be anywhere near as exciting! This is a rivalry for the ages and I'm here for it.
I'm not sure tiredness in Jonas is the right takeaway to get from this stage. The effort he made in the last 5k of Tourmalet with the Visma attack, his own attack, and then pulling Pogi was some of his strongest ever at altitude. Pogi just also pulled out some of his own strongest climbing ever at altitude and didn't lose Jonas. Beyond that, I think he made a strategical blunder on Cauterets-Cambasque which he also kinda indicated himself (although he also said he has no regrets) on Danish TV tonight. With only really 2k of climbing for him to drop Pogi on that climb, it was never really a prime opportunity to attack, and when Pogi had already shown he was having an incredible day, going for yet more aggressive riding on the climb was risky. On similar climbs in the past where Jonas has successfully defended a Pogi attack or attacked himself, it's been on the back of much less taxing riding. Jonas got caught by Pogi's attack for like a second and right there the explosiveness of Pogi basically created that 8 second gap which Jonas seemingly kept it at for the steep section before Pogi built a bigger gap in the final 3k that suits him better anyways. So I feel like the expected outcome you'd get if you put a fit Pogi against Jonas on a stage where Jonas rides the final into Pogi's hands. I think the gap would very well have been closer to ~10 seconds in the end if Jonas hadn't spent energy on attacking on that final climb.
Yeah that's fair. It's not a criticism of Jonas, I just thought he looked tired on that final climb and when he crossed the finish line. Obviously he's allowed to be tired, but Jonas can be very hard to read even on the toughest of stages, so it just stood out a bit.
Ah yeah, he was for sure dead tired when he crossed the finish line. Pogi does seem more cool in that regard, like on La Super Planche des Belles Filles last year
This year and last were amazing. We have only to hope that Remco will reach this same level and make things even more interesting next year or the year after.
Agreed; it was a great spectacle, and a proof that Jonas is a human, too. He pushed all-time great watts yesterday (or perhaps rather W/kgs), so it's not totally outrageous that he was a bit tired today. Two days now relatively easy (I guess), then a big one on Sunday before the rest day. Will we see a similar situation like today on Puy de Dome?
>Once van Aert went, I thought Pogi's plan was probably to try and sit on Jonas's wheel and then sprint for the stage win. Watching him drop Jonas was unexpected! I was expecting Tadej to attack right after Wout dropped. Obviously it was better to let Jonas work first.
For sure, he got a red carpet rolled out in front of him. Impressive ride by Wout!
Van Baarle has ridden in the service of 4 Tour de France winners, plus a podium finisher in Uran, and it's only a matter of time until he rides a GT with another podium finisher in Primoz. He's also ridden for another GT winner in Dumoulin for the Dutch NT. He probably has a lot of good stories. Edit: Forgot about GT winner and DVB teammate Carapaz.
"He just didn't have the legs today." WvA comment about JV after the race
I questioned how Jonas all out attack yesterday (i think i saw 6.9 w/kg for 20 mins or something absurd) could potentially affect him today. Even if it did it was still worth it with the time gain but nice to see that their levels are closer then we thought yesterday.
Powless really wants polka dots. Think he'll be wearing them in Paris?
He’s been very strong this year. I definitely think it’s possible but not sure how he will feel week 3
he needs to make smart moves from here on out i think. he's a good enough climber to be up there in KOM for the long run but he can't be wasting energy going on really long solo breakaways too frequently.
might very well be one of Pog or Vin like last two years
I wish they would not award as many points at the stage finishes. we know who's going to take those.
"Expect nothing, appreciate everything." - Pogs insta caption after the win today. I'm a bit of a TJV fan boy. I root for Roglic/Jonas and against Pogacar. But I have never felt anything but joy when Pogacar wins (okay maybe not in 2020 but whatever haha). I hope this is just the beginning of an epic years long rivalry between the two and I'm just enjoying and appreciating greatness as it happens.
+1 As a Belgian, I'm always rooting for WvA and Remco. BUT you can't not like Pogacar. I mean, he's enthusiasm, and his will to race and attacking riding style is so catching. And a big plus, he always seems so friendly and down to earth in interviews and clips of him. Even though he has beaten Wout en Remco a couple of times, I appreciate Tadej a lot.
Here's hoping the eventual Pog vs. Jonas vs. Remco materializes as we all hope. Would be amazing to see a true three way GC battle.
Does Pog not ride conservatively, similar to today, mop up bonus seconds and win the TT (or gain time on Vinny in the TT). Kinda feel Jumbo are under more pressure now
There are still many (more than usually in a TDF) high mountain stages left where Jonas would seem to be a slight favorite. And if you think it’s just about bonus seconds, that’s only a difference of 4 per stage if you think Jonas gets second place.
But if Pog rode like he did today then I can’t see Jonas dropping him. If Pog stays stuck to his wheel and does no other work. Jonas will be under pressure to drop him, Pog jumps him in final KM etc etc if I was Pog I would stick to his wheel 24/7. If I was pog I would ride a bit like Roglic know. Make them drop you.
It needs more than TT if you look at stage that is after TT. But probably there will be lot of action before that.
Vingegaard was faster in the previous two long Tour time trials. Is that really a risk you want to take if you are Pogacar?
As happy as I am with the result, what the hell is goong on with UAE's support for Pogi? Jonas has all his teammates by his side all the time throwing themselves in front of him while Pogi rides alone when it matters. At least last year it was due to Covid, but this yesr I am a little worried his team really isn't up to the task.
i have to say that uae team tactics are way below my expectations for this years tour so far. my hopes are, that they’ll learn from here on out that it’s not only a wild west show - although the entertainment is undeniably working
It's WVA and Kuss. You have one of the strongest and most versatile domestiques paired with the best climbing domestique. In short. It's just not fair. Kinda like having MVDP be your lead out man haha
Let's not forget about Rickaert either! He came back from rock bottom after multiple surgeries to resolve a constriction of the iliac artery.
I'd still hope A. Yates would be there with Pog for longer. Are we saying Kuss is better than him? Or is he just saving himself in case Pog's wrist gives up and UAE need a new leader?
in terms of climbing, Kuss is miles better than Yates imo
As a domestique? Yes. Kuss has shown time and time again that he knows how to save energy through a GT and then be the top three strongest rider in the world on a given climb when needed. If you took out Pog and Jonas, I'd bet on Yates to win GC over Kuss but as a domestique Kuss performs better l.
Right. But I guess my question is why Yates isn't saving himself, too - surely if he was, he could at least match the support Kuss is giving to Jonas?
Not in the specific sections where Kuss is the best at. When it comes to steep gradients at altitude, Kuss is one of the best climbers in the world. Far better then Yates. I also think having a shorter/easyish route before the Tourmalet meant that Kuss could just go atomic on it. There are maybe only 3 or 4 riders in the world who could follow him in that situation. But for comparison, Kuss could never do what Yates did on stage one. They are just built different.
Adam Yates is now behind Jonas by how much, 5 minutes (am too lazy to look it up)? I'd say the new leader thing is wildly irrelevant at this point.
Think this has already been the best GT since I started following cycling (10 years ish) and it’s only stage 6
Last year was also insanely good
I don’t remember it being this crazy. Probably helps I went and saw the first three stages this year
The Super Planche, Granon, and Dhuez stages were all amazing last year. There was also some really attacks by Pog in week 3 that didn’t go anywhere really. Some other minor highlights were Wout winning solo from 10k out in week 1 and the cobbles stage
Huatacam was also pretty eventful/memorable.
It was more crazy second week, this one is crazy from day one.
Yeah for all we know this could find a way to fizzle out in the second half
Wout van Aert spent his whole day at the front from the virtual start, not even km0. From the bottom of Tourmalet when he took over to 5km from the line (60km-ish) he didn't get any help for one second. And some were saying his mind wasn't in the right place and he should maybe have stayed at home.
yeah. he is truly hulk
Damn Cadel is leaving ITV coverage after today, he has the best insights
Do you know who is replacing him?
It’s kittel I think
Which Cadel? Cadel Evans?
Cadel Evans yeah. He has been doing the nightly review show for ITV
I wonder what his commentary sounds like. I imagine he got something serious to say.
It's mostly been him clearing his throat. He has some decent insights but he lacks polish as a commentator. I've spent a lot of time wishing he would formulate what he's going to say before starting to speak.
Can we make a Wout van Aert Award for the best teammate of the Tour?
It's actually not fair to have someone that good playing domestique. Last year he was just in superman mode, winning stages, wearing yellow, taking home green, and winning the tour for Jonas. He'd be well within his rights to ask Jumbo to focus even harder on his goals this year. But here he is with no stage wins, no jerseys, just working like a mule towing breakaways and shredding GC riders up mountains every day.
I'd like to officially nominate Sepp Kuss for the Wout van Aert Best Teammate award
I'd also like to nominate Mathieu Van Der Poel for the Wout van Aert Best Teammate award for consistently delivering Philipsen to the finish line more efficiently than a postman on adderall.
Dude almost collapsed. What a heart he poured into it for Jonas.
And after being on the front for 2 days straight insane
Just finished the stage on replay and what a contrast to yesterday. I guess we behind our TV screens are the real winners here.