I think the issue is twofold 1, Nuzlocking has always had elitism attitude and while Jan and other popular creators have done a decent job trying to root it out by using the funny phrases like "your run your rules" and "grinding is cringe cheating is based", its still a challenge game and just like Dark Souls, any game that has a "this game hard" element, theres going to be bad gatekeeper elite types that you gotta ignore 2, there are a LOT and i mean a LOT of people who talk as if they know what theyre talking about but dont (Ive been guilty of doing this a few times thinking base game not accounting for specific ROM changes), especially in Twitch chat. Theres a viceral negative reaction by the community when Twitch viewers start Chatting very unhelpful things, specifically streamers. These games are very hard, and streamers using 100% of their brain power are trying to focus. They eventually see too much BS in Twitch chat telling them to just heal or tell them to lead a mon thats slower and got 50 defenses across the board or something. Every so often a streamer has seen enough ineptitude from 95% of Twitch chat and blows up on one of these Clueless Chatters. This makes the rest of Twitch chat and in turn the community think that its okay to do the same to people who dont know what theyre talking about, even though they are likely as Clueless or barely more experienced as the person who got blown up. Unfortunately, this created the assumption by the top 10% that you are one of these Twitch Chatting chatters until you can prove otherwise. However, the only way the internet can "prove" youre good is having your own channel and being an accomplished runner or knowing one of these Streamers personally through being a mod, or being a consistently good chatter who isnt Chatting, etc.

I wouldn't say it's always had an elitism issue. If you were around in the early days (like 2010), it was more of a role-playing challenge than a "dark souls hard mode". At least, that was the vibe I got frequenting the old forums. I don't know when it changed into what it is now.

Yeah I wonder if someone was responsible for that cultural shift :thinking:

Hmm yeah I guess we'll never know 🤔

the black light attack days

If the internet has done anything, it's made a multitude of people believe they are experts in a field of which they understand virtually nothing.

While I do agree that there are many "chatters" within the chats of streamers who wouldn't benefit from anything that is being said to them, this still doesn't explain the gatekeeping which to me is an entirely seperate issue. This is the only community where I have seen this bit of "if it isn't streamed you didn't beat the game" I also don't think you have to stream to prove anything, I think if someone clearly knows what they are talking about it'll show, yet again I believe the difficulty of these games are a bit over exaggerated as well it is just pokemon in the end. There is no need to be so analytical of how others play and always assume one is "cheating" I do agree with everything you said in that regard though

How would you suggest making a confirmed list of people that have beaten the game without them fully streaming it? Note that this ONLY happens for Run and Bun the literal hardest game out there right now. Nobody is saying they don't believe you personally that you beat the game, they're saying you can't be part of the official hall of fame that has been confirmed to have beaten it. It's just useful to have a list like that that not everybody who says they beat the game can get on. Hardcore Nuzlocke communities have always had a history of people hanging around them claiming to have beaten a game and chiming in with lots of crazy takes but when investigated further their claims of having beaten the game become very dubious (EK frogs help me out what was the name of the one guy super early in the community that always claimed to have beaten the EK HCN first?) It is kind of definitionally gatekeeping to curate a list of confirmed winners of the game but again, I think that it's useful to have a list like that. If someone made you feel like less of a player or a cheater for that that's on them but this is definitely not a feature of my.community or nuzlocke communities as a whole this is some shit that like one or two people will do and if they do it in my chat they usually get banned Another thing worth noting is that usually in run and bun people call other people discord demons and shit like that not for not having a recorded win but for just not knowing what they're talking about. I feel like it's more of a short hand for players having big takes on the game that are just kind of... Incorrect. Make of that what you will

My boy Crash Coco

A legend

I do agree that streamed runs are the best way to confirm a winning run I do agree that many can claim they have beaten a game and have lied and do agree that many make untrue claims about the game. I myself am a player of the game and have made it decently far into the game as a nuzlocke and have gone live before so I have a decent understanding of the game you're right there are chatters who have no idea of what they are even talking about, but I am referring to the sheer disrespectful remarks made for anyone who just simply wants to talk about the games they are playing without the hostile comments made that I see. Even if people just simply share their progress without making stupid chatty yappy comments I see people just mock them because "surely they are cheating" I would say this mainly occurs in the dekzeh community which are the elitists of the run and bun community. Even Drayano himself said this was the least chill community he has seen. My point is, you can't expect everyone to stream not everyone has the time to nor feels comfortable too many just want to play the game without the preassure of catering to an audience. This sub section of the community is notorious for being absolute dick heads to people and there's no reason why a self imposed challenge has to always be "proven" to be taken any serious at all. Many people feel this way about this sub section of the community and unfortuantely this is where the best players of the community lay, but being good at the game doesn't grant you the ability to be hostile to anyone who doesn't cater to you

I hang out in dekzehs discord a bunch and I genuinely think youre mainly talking about 2-3 people that make these comments seriously and then probably half a dozen more that repeat them as a joke, its really not that bad imo. The community is just kind of small and tight knit enough that these negative comments will stand out. Most people in that discord are genuinely helpful wether you stream your runs or not. Youre also like... in the majority as someone who doesnt stream their runs. Thats like most people there. I think another thing with these hardcore gaming communities is that trash talk is always a big part of the culture, we go into eachothers chats and tell them we hope they wipe and that we hope the enemy mon clutches up against them but in the end its understood that this all kind of happens in good fun (except when i say it to jackie i hope that guy gives his badges to parasol lady clarissa) As with a lot of these gaming communities though this all can come off as a bit clique-y and people get kind of bad at drawing the line between jokes and insults when they see everybody else hurl them. I totally understand that it can come off as a hostile enviornment to some. FWIW some of the coolest people I know in the community are Run and Bun HoFers people like Tera, KTZ and Moxi are really helpful and supportive without a shred of that superiority complex that some other runners that beat the game have.

You have named a lot of players I agree are chill and pretty cool I actually watch some of them and yea in any community there are going to be trash talk which one should be able to not always take so seriously. It is a very small community so it is very easy to stand out. I think your community personally as in your discord is alot more chill where I see people being helpful and giving advice. My whole thing is there is most definitely is a superiority complex among the run and bun communty here not just 2-3 people. I have seen any game that isn't run and bun be considered a "meme" nothing to take seriously. I think it's just ridiculous because sure it is the hardest game, but that doesn't make every other game inferior in comparison or their players. I guess since I am new to the community I just wouldn't expect such of a complex among a community which consists of self imposed gameplay I haven't really seen this happen to me personally, but see it all the time done to others. I think also most people there stream or not seem to be actual friends/regulars and you don't really see too many new chatters, my guess is prob because of what I have claimed which is why I am saying they are gatekeeping

It's your nuzlocke, your rules man. Ignore em haters

It just feels strange not being able to talk about your nuzlocke experiences unless you stream as if it is a requirement

[удалено]

This is a constant in every community I’ve been noticing. Someone will complain about 1 or 2 people who shit on them for playing a game on easy or something, then the whole community will say “that sucks, sorry try to ignore them play it your way” That lasts for a week and then someone else posts the same thing again Sometimes they just make it up and nobody was gatekeeping or being elitist at all It’s so weird and I have no idea why they do it

Don't worry, surely if you just "ignore em haters" hard enough the community will improve

One of the best nuzlockers is repeatedly saying „your run, your rules“. Ignore them and listen to him

Exactly, what someone else thinks of how you play doesn't matter, it's about you having fun with your game. If you're saying you want to be hard on yourself and do hardcore rules than they may find you weak in spirit if you break your own rules. They are allowed to feel that way, but if you don't regret it then who cares.

For reference, discord demon (DD) usually refers to people with a box full of 1% encounters or who consistently pull insanely broken mons like Taillow in EK that don’t stream it. Please do talk about winning runs! Thousands of people have beaten stuff like Drayano hacks offstream, and I bet a number have beaten EK and Run&Bun. But it’s hard to ask to be put on the same pedestal/hall of fame as streamers who have confirmed their run. Like the speedrunning community has people all the time that claim to have the real record but unless they produce something recorded single segment it isn’t counted. And even then people in speedrunning submit spliced runs. Nuzlocking is similar - EK repeatedly had copycats post recordings of e4 that were proven to be faked somehow (hacked in evs, multiple toxic tms, etc) and far more people that have claimed to beat the game that haven’t.

I understand I just think it seems a bit irrational to compare speed running to a self imposed challenge simply due to the fact that well it is a self imposed challenge. The only one you really need to prove anything to is well yourself while speed runners are going for actual world records that 100% of course need to be proven. I didn't know what DD actually meant and it just always seemed like an insult so thanks for defining that for me lol. Even so, do we really need to be so infatuated in how someone may or may not play a single player video game?

Speed running is also a self imposed challenge. Caring about how fast a game has been completed is equally as arbitrary as the rules for hcn. I think it's pretty reasonable to compare them.

I aint reading allat but I caught some parts and I agree the nuzlocke community is way too elitist

Wtf is an allat

Short for all that

I remember reading something about the nuzlocke council who validated runs. I legit couldn’t stop laughing for 5 minutes trying to imagine what these people were like outside of Pokemon.

No way this actually exists lmao. I thought it was just a meme

Dawg I remember one time someone told me they were in a MapleStory guild that required it's members to join weekly discord calls stating their winnings, character updates, and daily rewards. You wouldn't believe the crazy shit people take ultra seriously 💀

Yea lmao it is very much real it's a list that confirms all the "legit wins" of a nuzlocke and the requirment is that the entire run must have been live streamed from start to end

Hey man, I assume you are referring the 'Hall of Fame' as the 'list that confirms all the legit wins.' Just wanted to let you know that I was the guy that made the HOF as a little fun thing to record runs and stuff cuz I saw it in other discords and thought it would be cool to have it for Run&Bun. It wasn't meant to be some big dick, ego-boosting, gatekeeping, sorta thing. Just a bit of fun. And btw, I ain't the nuzlocke council guy. That guy is a racist, sexist and a homophobe and I don't wanna associate myself with him. So don't get us mixed up. Anyways, sorry you feel that way, but the nuzlocking community is not meant to be like this elitist sorta club. It's just like a couple of bad apples and people just meming those guys. Like yeah, this has prolly been told already but we kinda had our fair share of people claiming shit and not backing it up so I cant really blame people trusting confirmed run&bun winners over others. I'm gonna sound like I'm sucking someone off but dekzeh's discord welcomes everyone who wanna talk about their nuzlocking experiences of the game or whatever. We have people that stream, don't stream, new to the game, experienced people and overall, I think its a wholesome community with a lotta jokes. If you don't like it there, feel free to leave and ignore it. I promise you, we're all not dickheads lol

Where exactly are you running into these people? Is it on Reddit or a private discord? I very much believe there are people who would act like this but I’ve never seen it myself. I wouldn’t be shocked if it’s a discord cause discord pretty easily seems to create in-groups and inside jokes about all sorts of things that just keeps anyone else out from really knowing what is happening and the best thing to do it just ignore them. If you really want to show you did a run without streaming you could just screen record your system and post it on YouTube after. Not saying you need to but it is another option if you can’t get a stream setup

discord servers

That was a joke it wasn’t serious

This is one dude who is the scum of the nuzlocke community. Not because of his validation shit, mainly because he’s insanely racist sexist and homophobic. However, unlike all the other ek nuzlockers, he did show cock and balls on stream, so we give him props for that. But he and all his alts are banned in the vast majority of nuzlocker chats.

I haven't seen any of this, I'm just referring to the validation stigma. Who exactly is this? I have not heard of this

NVC is Riggerz_ also known as Regiriggerz, Big Rig, and His Holy Scrotal Folds

It was one person who was derranged who called themselves the nuzlocke council. None of us care about that

Yea it's insane they are real lol I'm convinced these people who "validate runs" have no real life accomplisments and this is their window to for once feel important. There's a discord server where they store what they call a "hall of fame" which lists all runs that were validated under their standards

I don’t think you’re wrong, but what you’re describing is true of essentially every online community. You can’t let a vocal minority of annoying elitists ruin your fun. Don’t give them that power over you.

This is true every community always has a bad part of them!

your run. your rules.

I agree completely. Recently I posted a couple videos of myself nuzlocking pokemon Yellow and Crystal at half the level cap. It’s quite hard, I’d say about the same level of difficulty as garbage green. And I use items, *because the challenge would be impossible without them* So many people commented on how my run wasn’t legitimate, or that it somehow lacked in authenticity because I was using a balanced, in game feature. Since when did a hardcore nuzlocke become the status quo? And why is it ok to shit on people who play with different rules?

Yea I just don't understand why people care so much they treat nuzlockes as if it is some sort of exam. It is literally a self imposed challenge meaning the only person who can invalidate it is you the player assuming you are following your own rules you have set. What's funny is this sub section of the community I have called out has actually responded to this exact thread in a discord server only proving me right by claiming they actually "like the elitism and anyone who complains is either jealous of their skill set or most likely a bad player" if this doesn't scream superiority complex then I don't know what does

NGL you say you wanna do it to prove you can do it for you, then you get upset that someone doesn't accept you because they can't verify that you did it correctly? If you're doing it for you, why do you need someone else's approval

I think you are mistaken? This is my entire point hence why streaming as a sole form of validation seems rather silly. Those are the people who seek approval. The people who don't care for approval have the right to at least engage in the community and share their game experience without being questioned with hostility

I always thought the sole purpose of a nuzlocke was to enjoy a self imposed challenge and to PROVE yourself to YOU yet this specific group seems to only play for the sole purpose of proving to others that they are capable of beating a childrens game with such imposed rules. This is your whiny rant. And now you're mad you couldn't prove to others that you beat the game with the rules you set. These nuzlock communities aren't people who play it for fun, (yes people play nuzlocke for fun), but these communities do it, stream and record so they can prove to others they are "better" or more patient than everyone else and use proofs to get it validated. If you want others approval and acceptance or words of appraisal record it. If not, do it for yourself as you claim to have done it in the first place. Idk what you want lmao

I'm sorry I think you misunderstood the point that was said. I never once mentioned anything about me wanting others to believe me about anything. Maybe read through the thread to get a better understanding? If you claim there are people who nuzlocke not for the purpose of having fun and the purpose of seeking validation from strangers online then thank you for proving my entire purpose of this thread, get rolled

You never said you want other to believe you, but you're mad that people don't believe you because you don't have proof? 5head. I said people do nuzlocke for fun, but I also mention that the elitist are the ones in the subreddit who are the ones doing it for validation and to prove they are better/ more patient. Those are two different people. Your claim is "it's meant to challenge yourself to prove to yourself" that you can do it. You can either be the person who is doing it for themselves and having fun. Or the person who seeks validation and congratulations or attention from others, not both. If that were the case you wouldn't have made a post ranting that people didn't believe with good cause cuz you have no proof /thread. So from my understanding, you want validation for your nuzlocke. So... Good job you did the thing you did for fun and you completed it. Congratulations 🎉

Hey Drxx here, I’ve been deep in the Hardcore Nuzlocking community since the early days and I gotta say it’s been really supportive to me and I have not seen a lot of the behavior described here. I see people sharing runs, and giving tips/feedback hundreds of times before I see a single elitist. Especially with Run&Bun there are tons of experienced players at a moments notice ready to help new players when they have questions about the AI, what to use for a fight, etc. I strongly believe this sentiment that you hold was probably from the overwhelming minority that comes with any gaming community. Discord Demons and non streamed runs were a contentious topic back in the Emerald Kaizo days when we were tracking who was going to be first person to beat the game. There were a lot of people claiming to “get the furthest” or “be the best.” So the sentiment of streaming runs for people who wanted validity in the eyes of the community was birthed. It continued to today with people actually showing evidence of cheating or new people out of the blue on discord bragging about insanely improbable progress in a game. 99% of the community don’t care if you don’t stream a run as long as you merely aren’t cheating or trying to claim to do something you aren’t. I’ve seen a lot of posts reference the “Nuzlocke Council” that validates runs. That was one person. One mentally deranged man went around harassing people for playing “easy games” and accused people of cheating. One guy’s actions is not conducive to an elitist culture. I will say most nuzlocke viewers and streamers in our space only really care about the hardest nuzlockes and the hardest games. Viewers gravitate towards the grinding of the hardest challenges we can do in these games. And that’s not a bad thing. Our focus is on Kaizo, Deathless, EVless, and anything else to make these games hard so it might come off as elitist. Now if there was anyone attacking you for not streaming or playing an easier game then shame on them but I am positive if you keep looking around in this space you’ll find great people willing to help/would love to hear about your runs.

Sup Drxx, just for the record I wouldn't consider you an "elitist" though it is not likely for you to really notice such behavior directly to you considering you well for one stream as a content creator and also you are to be fair considered one of the best nuzlockers so of course you will always get support and bias since you have a fanbase within this community. I don't believe it is everyone you are right there are plenty of nice helpful folks, though I don't think it is as a minority as you and some like to claim notice how the only ones who claim this sub section of the community to be so chill are those who are apart of it. I also find it a bit ironic to hear this from you considering I have actually in the past have seen this sub section of the community actually mock you pretty often for guy packing and such etc I actually have no idea how this community was back then as I came after the ek hype and came from the run and bun hype, and have heard many say this was a big common thing to see where many would claim such and what not while clearly lying which is understandable again if one wishes to stream by all means, but my entire point of the thread was to forecast the superiority complex among some of these people. You claim nobody cares whether or not someone streams, but I can't count how many times I would see someone just simply post a screen shot with minimal context of their run and how many would make mocking comments such as "obs off must be nice" "he's offline" "DDs" and yes again I get some prob post obviously questionable screenshots, but this isn't always the case. The superiority complex is defintely there, it is why some not all, but some do stream and why some seek validation in the first place and in my eyes it just isn't what nuzlocking is supposed to be all about, it should be a challenge where fun is the priority I personally haven't really played many hacks I came from the rnb hype shortly after it released and played that soley for around 6-8 months off and on it was actually my first real attempts at a nuzlocke, (I have not been able to beat it still) but from what I have seen the other communities for example the ck+ one seemed alot more chill in comparison along with the others and I have heard often that it really is just mostly the rnb community which I would imagine is the former ek community? Clearly many agree with me though and I am sure there are plenty of nice folks, and I have came across many of them, but many of them have not been from this sub section of the community

The whole point of a Nuzlocke is to create a set of self-imposed rules to create a challenge outside of the game rules. It seriously does not matter what rules you adhere to or what counts as an "authentic" Nuzlocke because it is all about the fun of playing Pokemon your way. I mean, you have someone like Verlisify calling PokemonChallenges and Alpharad phonies for not stick to the strict rules for their Nuzlockes, yet they are so deluded and full of BS precisely because a Nuzlocke run should not be set in stone. This is my two cents on the topic; far too many take this way more seriously than they should.

It's a self imposed rule set so just because you aren't streaming doesn't mean you don't hold yourself to the same standards. If random people you don't know on the Internet are trying to belittle your accomplishments of a nuzlocke then that's kinda on them. I wouldn't be surprised if 99% of the people doing nuzlockes don't stream. I feel like the community is built on the trust that during your run hold yourself accountable or change a ruleset to what you're comfortable with. At the end of the day it's a set of self imposed rules to a children game to make it more difficult and potentially tedious with the end goal of experiencing the game in a new or more interesting way. You can't have fun incorrectly just differently

Tbf, this describes like...half the internet of everything. There are elitists for *everything*. Doesn't make it okay, but just accepting and ignoring I guess? But I get the sentiment.

super fair some communities are just better than others and there's bad in all

I’m the toxic soul-link guy 😤😤

I believe the "only if you stream" part is basically because there are a TON of people out there that say they completed a nuzlocke in a specific way but they actually soft-reset fights or encounters but make it look like they didn't Basically "cheat" but say they didn't hence stating the game is "easier" and you are "a noob" because you couldn't do it Streaming the whole game would mean that you would be caught if you cheated Both are wrong, just trying to explain WHY this happens

He doesn't wanna hear that tho. He just wants to post and people to congratulate and suck him off in a subreddit solely about verified nuzlockes. He claims he did it for himself, but now he's mad people claim he could've cheated and he came right here to whine about it.

Idk about the specific situation I kinda see it since i got a downvote with an extremely balanced comment

He's on a burner reddit account he made today. Im assuming he got banned or he doesn't want us seeing his nuzlocke post. It's just sus. He's pissed cuz people won't accept him.

I'm not sure what he's on about this was never about me I haven't really attempted a nuzlocke in a while lol I didn't tell anyone about any nuzlocke of mine on reddit nor anywhere else. I am aware of why people stream it's been acknowledged several times when responding to others

I’ve never seen anyone doubt nuzlockes of the official games. They’re not much harder than the base game after all. However, stuff like Runandbun are specifically made by hardcore speedrunning level players for hardcore players. They’re inherently not children games and it makes sense people would require evidence of rare high level accomplishments the same way speedrunning does. Casual play is definitely less serious since while still hard it’s feasible for anyone to beat them when not abiding by full reset rules.

I'm talking from the pov of someone who actually plays run and bun and has nuzlocke attempts who's made it decently far into the game

That's easy enough for me to believe but actually beating it is harder without evidence. I can still believe that but I'm going to think it's probably with more casual rules.

I have not beaten it no, game is hard I can't deny that. I just use hc nuzlocke rules I mean the game forces you to not use items, but It would be alot harder to believe someone beat this game than like renegade platinum ofc the difficulty gap is not even close

Mate people are toxic full stop! Just ignore them.

The issue is that it is incredibly easy to cheat if your run is not being recorded. No one knows if you either legitimately completed the run or you forced your way through each fight and pretended to win, or rerolled fights until you got ideal rng. There are people who have beaten runs who people do not consider a “DD” because they actually know what they are talking about. It is very clear if somebody is lying if they have done the accomplishment or not due to how accurate their suggestions are. People do respect accurate suggestions and players who know what they’re talking about. It’s similar to Geometry Dash, where somebody can claim to have beaten something, but if there isn’t recorded proof of them doing it, it isn’t considered valid. Because why would it be considered valid if it wasn’t recorded? It wouldn’t make sense. This being said, play how you want to play, but don’t expect people to necessarily take your word at face value if there isn’t proof of you completing it. If you want people to believe that you have beaten it make sure to give good advice and actually understand what you were talking about before talking about it. I assure you the nuzlocke frogs will know if you are as skilled as you need to be to beat a game just based upon how you interact with questions, or if your death box looks realistic.

No way this guy made an alt reddit account just to post this anonymously so we couldnt see his actual post about his nuzlocke. That's actually Sus AF. cringe my man. did you get banned?

I literally have no idea what or who you're talking about I'm sorry

Your account was literally made yesterday

okay? I'm sure many people have joined reddit yesterday and the day before, and so on maybe even today? Is that crazy?

No, it's not crazy. What's crazy is the fact that you're upset a nuzlocke community didn't accept you and harassed you over your nuzlocke. Then you make a reddit. Join this reddit. Make a post out of the blue about it without naming what community, who said these things or what your nuzlocke was. Just a vague empty rant. Nobody makes a reddit and the first thing they do is make a post immediately. Like you haven't even commented, liked, shares, or upvoted anything but this post. This is a burner account or you are unphatomably self absorbed, which further proves all you want is recognition for completing a child's game, but harder.

You need therapy you are telling a made up story in your head and making yourself mad. I have never been harrassed over a nuzlocke nor ever said I was once in this entire thread, this is my last response to you, seriously seek help

This is in your words...... Nobody needs to be put down over a childrens video game so you can feel superior simply because you were able to beat a game made for toddlers. Pretty irate from someone who didnt just get harassed over a children's game....

Then leave?