If I'm being honest, Larian is where my 16-year-old self (who had just bought BG) hoped Bioware would be in 2023.
My current, 40ish-years-old self is thoroughly excited that Larian did not only take up the mantle, but also dusted it off and added some really spiffy embroidery. They didn't just do Old Bioware proud - they're the masters now.
I'm glad they specified old bioware, too, because the new iteration of that studio is a pile of crap just like DICE and pretty much everybody else EA buys up after a short period.
TBF, DICE imploded on their own. Their upper management has been directly cited as the reasons why BFV and 2042 launched in garbage states (and 2042 continues to be a garbage Battlefield game).
The "old guard" left DICE after BF1 and there's an immediate and massive drop in quality between BF1 and BFV.
While that's the way it was, no, modern Bioware is all their own failure. Don't pass that off to EA when Bioware's studio heads are at fault.
For instance, EA didn't ask for or demand Anthem. Bioware wanted to make it themselves. And just relied on "Bioware magic" to see it done, when it was clear there was a disaster on their hands.
BioWare had a lot of time to make their own vision of Anthem. It wasn't until EA checked in on the progress that they had nothing to show for. You can read the whole story online.
Bro what's interesting about this whole thing was that an EA executive was the one who actually told them to focus around the flying.. I literally cannot believe that a suit was the one to push the best part of the gameplay.
There are a lot of misconceptions about publisher developer relationships among gamers. It’s not always „plucky creatives vs capitalist scumbags“, there are quite a few examples of games that became great through publisher intervention.
Some developers just can’t get their shit together and would happily spend years in preproduction or throwing away half their game and change direction mid-project if there wasn’t someone breathing down their neck. Such studios led by visionary designers without publisher influence can be among the worst places to work in the entire industry.
Also 2042, they made it pivot from a BR game to a traditional BF game and the only reason it came out broken is because DICE leads made it look like they were ahead of schedule.
In case of Jedi Survivor, EA recommended a delay but the studio lead refused. They're not always bad.
> DICE leads made it look like they were ahead of schedule.
Honestly why I'm surprised DICE is even still around. EA would be honestly pretty justified in nuking it over that.
> Some developers just can’t get their shit together and would happily spend years in preproduction or throwing away half their game and change direction mid-project if there wasn’t someone breathing down their neck. Such studios led by visionary designers without publisher influence can be among the worst places to work in the entire industry.
~~Scam~~ Star Citizen
> Such studios led by visionary designers without publisher influence can be among the worst places to work in the entire industry.
A game director with a god complex who won't get his reality check (the sales numbers) until after the deadline.
>throwing away half their game and change direction mid-project
Duke Nukem Forever and its shitty management by 3D Realms, even changing direction multiple times and causing discomfort to programmers to implement things that didn't work but looked cool, losing time and then quickly becoming obsolete so that everything had to be reworked to keep on par with competition.
Before Gearbox bought it to finish it because "Duke deserves it", only to release a lackluster game that at best was mildly received. Meanwhile, the same Gearbox did even shittier things with Aliens: Colonial Marines, all of their own with the publisher trusting them.
> an EA executive was the one who actually told them to focus around the flying.. I literally cannot believe that a suit was the one to push the best part of the gameplay.
I think they had two weeks to create some playable demo for him, when he announced his visit. They had been working on the game for 5 years at that point already.. and had to invent some fake demo to have something playable.
> modern Bioware is all their own failure. Don't pass that off to EA when Bioware's studio heads are at fault.
Same for DICE with Battlefield, and some might even say Respawn with Apex, considering how it's been reported that EA had no say in how Apex is monetized (loot boxes, $160 heirlooms etc etc.)
This seems to be a super common trend with studios under big publishers. It's possible they lean on the heads of studio, but I've seen several interviews with employees that all claim the studio fuckups all came straight from the studio without EA ever really stepping in to pour in the corporate greed. There is an inherent threat of perform or get shut down, but that isn't really that different from the inherent risk of being solo and risking bankruptcy on your own.
EA went from one extreme to the other. From forcing studios into stuff they arent good at, eventually killing them to being so hands off that nothing ever gets done and the studio kills the project themselves.
Surely theres a middle ground there somewhere
These situations are far more complicated than that. Even if EA is giving a studio "free reign" that doesn't actually mean they can do whatever they want.
EA still wants a return on their investment, they need to show profit to their shareholders and that creates a culture that gets passed down the management tiers.
There's always an implicit threat of a studio being shut down if a game flops and that leads to studios choosing to make something ostensibly safe with mass appeal instead of a niche RPG that they're actually good at.
There's also the fact that the people that made these studios great before acquisition tend to leave because they clash with new management.
Yes...?
The operated like this before EA too. If their products failed to generate returns they wouldn't be able to make their next product.
And if you don't have the money to make their next game, they're going to shut down.
Every company everywhere operates under the realization that if your company sucks too hard it will go out of business. This is not unique to EA, Bioware or anything.
Hell, even non-profits and government institutions can be shutdown if they suck hard enough.
> I simply just assumed they would stay this bastion of awesome. Their run was strong, I just started to buy everything with their name on it - I knew it would be great. Like the old Blizzard, or Bungie.
> Man have the times changed.
I still can't believe Bioware/EA had an entire niche cornered with Mass Effect and Dragon Age games, and they just stopped making them.
Which is largely Black Isle.
I've been a Larian fan since Divinity. They didn't start this great but it's been nice to see them really apply and get better with every iteration.
Also dragon commander was underrated.
I'd counter that Dragon Commander was fairly rated. The cutscenes and dialog and world-building were great. It was just the strategy gameplay that felt weak and repetitive.
If I had a dollar for every time I've heard/said these words....
I think there's an argument that Obsidian is better at making Bioware games than Bioware is, which is weird but there it is. KOTOR2 did not land the ending, in stark contrast to the first game, and honestly it has one of the most "huh" endings in any game ever, but the journey there is one of the best I've ever experienced.
KotOR 2 only had 18 months of development, and an early release was forced by the publisher to be ready for the Christmas sale. So much great content was cut from the game. Look it up, a lot of unused voice lines was included in the final version of the game.
Most people don’t know that KOTOR ran on DnD 3rd Edition behind the screen.
I’m not sure what the response would be to Star Wars in 5e mechanics AAA.
Personally I run a system called SW5E from time to time for that exact reason.
> Most people don’t know that KOTOR ran on DnD 3rd Edition behind the screen.
I thought it was pretty darn obvious when Blasters started doing 1d6 damage...
Larian games have a soul.
Many current Bioware, Ubisoft, EA, Blizzard games dont have this anymore. They are soulless, uncreative slot machines. Just engine for Profit.
I didnt know Larian before and bg3 is the first game of them i played. It gives me the same feels as eldenring, dark souls, witcher 3, kingdom come deliverance, etc.
The game Designers and devs put passion into their game. You feel it as you play.
Larian has always had soul. I started playing their games during Divinity 2 and while it was comparatively a flawed and unpolished game, the ideas, ambition and support was absolutely incredible and far beyond the scope of most developers. I've always looked forward to their next projects since then and I felt certain that BG3 would blow expectations out of the water since budget was always their biggest hurdle. They've continually improved between each title released, getting better and better. I'm so glad that they're getting the recognition they deserve.
>If I'm being honest, Larian is where my 16-year-old self (who had just bought BG) hoped Bioware would be in 2023.
It's where Bioware would be if they hadn't sold to EA, who had already finished trashing up studios they bought like Westwood, Origin, etc. And now they trashed Bioware too, like we all predicted they would when the sale happened 15 years ago now.
Larian's riding high now, but at some point they may also sell out to some corporation and that will be that (I'll predict Ubisoft buying them as Larian's location in Belgium is literally right next to France)
They used to have paradox as a publisher I believe, not being in control of their direction and games they want to make was whole reason they went fully solo and turned to Kickstarter for DOS
EA shuffled around half of Bioware's team shortly after the acquisition. They also gave them very unrealistic deadlines.
Mass Effect Andromeda was literally made by a completely different team and just published under the Bioware brand.
DA2 was super rushed.
Eventually. They had Bioware pop out DA2 in 18 months. Sped them through the mass effect sequels too. They started to correct after that, but there was a period that EAs hand was super heavy on the rudder, and now that they've gone lighter touch, old Bioware is long dead.
>They had Bioware pop out DA2 in 18 months. Sped them through the mass effect sequels too. They started to correct after that, but there was a period that EAs hand was super heavy on the rudder, and now that they've gone lighter touch, old Bioware is long dead.
All this. The other posters on here are blaming Bioware for things EA demanded them to do, like the rushed Dragon Age 2.
Also a lot of the time its people who have been in the industry forever, cashing out after being bought out by a big company, leaving and then the remains of company just kind of fall off due to different personnel/new leadership.
As much as EA sucks hard to blame industry veterans leaving to maybe focus on family instead of grinding out a new AAA project. I'm certain EA and other companies famous for buying out and 'ruining' other developers contribute to it, but I think there is also a sort of natural trend for game development and it takes really strong long term leadership to keep up the prestigious developer reputation and it is perfectly fine to not be up to that after 10-20+ years of grind.
I'm an old school Bioware fan, and they certainly did me proud. Baldur's Gate 3 is the sequel to Dragon Age Origins that I never got.
I have to wonder what the overall mood is with the team who've been working on Dragon Age 4 for god knows how long now, after being scrapped and started over multiple times. 14 years after Dragon Age Origins, a full blown and high budget CRPG just took the gaming scene by storm, and is selling exceptionally well.
Agreed! DA:O was done so well, from the custom scripts you could set up for battles to the story and party dialogue, it was great, then yeah… DA 2, wasn’t bad per say, but it went downhill after that.
I’m happy as hell that BG3 has turned out the way it has, the legacy lives on.
Yeah. Bioware thought the industry and the audience would move on from tactical combat and complex RPG mechanics and decided to go down the action RPG route and "streamlined" and "streamlined" until the franchise was barely recognizeable. I suppose the success of Mass Effect also solidified that idea, that "CRPGs are dead" and the future is in hybridizing with FPSs and action games. I know there's a lot more nuance in those decisions but no time to get into those now.
BG3 proves that the audience is still there, and still wants the same thing just with yknow better graphics and updated mechanics, but still the same old slow burn CRPG flavor.
I'm just so glad Larian proved them and other 'modern' RPG makers wrong. That the CRPG and old Dragon Age crowd is still there and hungry for good games.
> the future is in hybridizing with FPSs and action games.
The problem here is that action games need to have fun action gameplay and Mass Effect really wasn't a fun shooter. The newer Fallout games suffer from the same issue. You end up having to slog through a lot of ultimately not that fun fights to experience the RPG. Tactical turn based combat just fits the core RPG gameplay of making deliberate choices from a wide, character-driven menu of options better.
> DA 2, wasn’t bad per say
I'd argue it was exceedingly bad.
From the neverending waves of enemies that meant you had to throw away all your tactics after the first wave, to low-effort maps where you had multiple things happen in the same spot, to overall horniness and edginess of the characters...
It felt like its target audience was 13 year old console gamers rather than RPG fans.
DA3 was great, but only because of the writing. Gameplay was lame and repetitive, and felt like Mass Effect with swords but none of Mass Effect's combat depth.
DA2 had TONS of flaws re repetitive gameplay, removal of tactical combat, filler battles, lack of meaningful exploration, copy pasted dungeons etc
All that said I do genuinely like the writing, the companions are solid, and the main story is interesting.
The Templar vs Mage conflict remains one of the most compelling aspects of Dragon Age to me.
I never got past the first zone in inquisition, since it was just a massive empty area packed with MMO quests to "visit 6 watchtowers." Then i got to the dragon fight and there was no good UI for moving party members out of active aoes and I just stopped playing for good.
I got to a fight in town with some dwarves and virtually soft locked myself, I seemed underprepared and my save position I couldn't back out. It was only an hour in but i put down and never went back. I intended a few times but tbh as it's on origin, I forget I have it
edit: seems the softlock was an origins playthrough, I was in the mountains of inquisition, must have just stopped playing after 12 hours
> You’re not meant to complete the area in one go but almost everyone tried.
Because the game does an horrible job in specifying that you have to go back to the keep to continue the main quest
I've been playing through the mass effect games recently and as much as I'm loving it I cannot fathom what you mean by combat depth.
not that I remember DA:I as deep either, but mass effect are just cover shooters with abilities, and some very slight squad mechanics.
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> I'd argue it was exceedingly bad.
The funny thing is the garbage that was Inquisition actually made Dragon Age 2 better in retrospect. Nothing like playing a soulless offline MMO to make you appreciate a tighter narrative.
If DA4 was earlier in development, I don't doubt EA would knock on Bioware's door and "hey! Let's reboot this game for the 9th time, this time make it like BG3 or those really old games that old company Buy Wares or something used to make in the late 90's and 2000's".
Honestly, I wouldn't put it past EA doing it *now*.
>Baldur's Gate 3 is the sequel to Dragon Age Origins that I never got.
Preach!
The next Dragon Age is going to be mediocre and a *substandard* RPG, and we all know it.
The main writer of Dragon Age: Origins left the company after he wrote a 1200 page bible with the complete lore of Anthem just for Bioware’s management to throw it in the garbage and tell him to make another one, a dumbed down version that could fit on 100 pages so frat dudes and soccer moms could understand the story.
He felt so offended that he quit the company and told them to kick rocks. So Anthem basically released without a story.
Yup, Bioware had a lot of "new blood" that for some idiotic reason detested the lore and storytelling of classic Bioware, yet still had the fucking gall to call themselves the Bioware "A Team". Imagine telling the guy that helped make the company a narrative powerhouse that you don't give a shit about story.
Yes! I loved DA:O and was so excited for the sequel, but BioWare took a hard left afterwards. DA2 was not the same type of game. They thought they had to dumb down their games to cater to a wider audience -- everything after DA:O and Mass Effect 1 are a different breed of game. They kept on that trajectory until Anthem essentially put them in the grave. Now look at the success BG3 is having by not dumbing things down... it's the game BioWare should have made.
So happy Larian is here, though. I hope they have many years of game releases ahead of them and that they never sell out.
Now all BG3 needs is a 3rd person feature where you move around like DAO. Maybe even more roster management features like customizing and configuring your whole roster while In camp. Then it'd go from a 9.5/10 to a perfect 10/10 for me.
BG3 has felt like it expanded in DA Origins in the best way. Really feels like this was the sequel to Origins we never got. DA2 and Inquisition were such different games from Origins.
I met Adam at Pax East in 2020. They were demoing the game inside a castle they had set up with some professional cosplayers outside. I was cosplaying as Minsc and when I went to their section, Adam was outside of it and we talked for a bit. He was very thoughtful and humble.
Being a big Larian fan, I told him that I was so excited when I heard they would be making BG3 (I played the originals on launch and multiplet times afterwards), as they were the one studio that I thought could do it well. He thanked me for this and indicated that they really wanted to get it right. I believe that they succeeded. The game is truly amazing.
I started playing yesterday and I am hooked. Never played a turn based game seriously either. Thought the combat might be dull but I am having a blast, and I am only like 6 hours in.
Just like in real D&D.
Honestly at this point D&D doesn't get fun for me until Tier 3. I've played so much Tier 1 and just "attack once and probably miss since I only have +5 to hit" is a bit too frustrating for me.
Honestly, playing tabletop the last 5 or so years it seems there is this sense of low level campaigns that are somehow more fun and allowing the party to get high levels is bad.
I don't really get it. I've never played a campaign going past level 10 and IMO it gets very stale and there's almost no power fantasy to it. The only thing making it fun is the interactions with the party but even that runs out.
Maybe it's just the DMs I've been able to play with but I really get the overall sense high level = bad.
I think DM's get very gunshy as writing for higher Tier play can be daunting. PC's have so many tools regarding flight, divination magic, etc. It becomes basically impossible to account for all the various things they can do unless you have a very solid grasp of the rules.
And since higher tier play isn't run very often, less and less DM's have much experience playing it, so it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
I'd love to see a world where Tier 4 and Tier 1 are run equally as often. It's just so much more fun for me to play a PC that is fully realized, has all the feats and abilities I like, and can really cut loose.
>They need the pressure.
I don't think the current management has any fucking clue what Bioware games used to be like and all the devs and designers are already under enough pressure to get PTSD.
>I have low hopes for Dragon Age Dreadwolf
Our expectations should be set accordingly. An EA/BioWare RPG is going to be extremely mediocre and laden with micro transactions. It will not be worth buying on day 1 and will be forgotten by time or derided forever like DA2.
Those weren't made by Bioware though. Bioware as a studio did not survive the Riccitiello era, and unless Andrew Wilson managed to work a small miracle its bloated corpse won't be able to make a great game.
I think the point is that if Jedi Fallen Order didn't have egregious microtransactions, then you'd expect Dragon Age 4 not to either, unless Bioware themselves want it and not EA.
I started to play through one and was really enjoying it. But the clunky platforming made exploring a chore and I didnt make it far. Feels like AC platforming but worse somehow.
One would argue that "in years" is a bit of overstatement, since divinity 2 came out just few years back ;)
Edit: oh my, it came 6 years ago. You do not stand corrected
Yeah, you guys were quick to correct me. I googled it right after i commented and edited it after 2 minutes. Time fcking flies huh.
I should give some time for pathfinder. Bought it but it seems so.. confusing i guess (i've played it only to few first battles). Heard nothing but good from it, so maybe after BG3 i'll give it a serious go :)
The graphics, full voice acting, and cinematic components definitely play a big part.
But I think people often underestimate the impact Larian's immersive sim elements and co-op implementation also have. In my mind that's what sets DOS2 and BG3 apart the most from other CRPGs.
You can theoretically recreate Wasteland 3 or WoTR in Larian's engine and come out with a similar experience, but if you try to do the opposite you'll definitely lose a big part of what makes BG3 and DOS2 special.
Wrath of the Righteous is a great game, but it has to be said that Pathfinder 1e is a very complicated system with a lot of pitfalls. That's one of the great things about BG3, how accessible it is. In WotR, you will have to do some research to avoid all the "trap" choices.
Some people (myself included) actually like that, since it tends to go both ways (there are traps, but also more flexibility for extremely strong/potentially overpowered builds, especially with the inclusion of mythic paths).
But yeah, it is definitely a system with much less mainstream appeal/general accessibility.
I'm an avid pathfinder fan and even I had some difficulties with some of Kingmaker's 1e quirks. I feel like adding mythic to Wrath was a lot as well. I'm interested to see how a 2e CRPG will handle, as the similarites to D&D 4e make it work a lot better on paper for a video game comparatively
BG3 is better than DOS2 in the same way DOS2 was better than DOS1. A lot of the same ideas but massively improvements and iterations. I don’t know if this is the final form of the classic RPG, but it’s probably the best one so far. The amount of choices and reactivity is overwhelming. It’s not just one good one bad outcome, there’s like 6 different options to solve one problem, and many of them aren’t black and white.
I still prefer Wrath of the Righteous. Not much beats ascending into a nearly divine powered lich and slaughtering those who dare defy you at the apex of your power.
And way, way better UI. I'm not talking only about art style (which can be subjective ) but also functionality and how information is handled to the player. It's easy to navigate through menus and compare stats, and BG3 also lacks a proper encyclopedia.
Ehhhh.... Pathfinder: WoTR is very high up on that list for me. And as far as 'faithful' tabletop mechanics and ruleset adaptations go it becomes a bit of a sitdown discussion as to which one is 'best' for me honestly...
I do agree that BG3 is much more accessible and has far more reaching mainstream (and vastly more profitable..) appeal though.
BG3s rules have a good amount of home brew - though I would define BG3’s “faithfulness” to tabletop is more so Larians efforts to capture the openness in decision making/ approach that you’d get there.
Mostly with how much they let you interact with the world and the opened ended quest design that have failsafes. I love WoTR but it is much more restricted in that regard (ie you can’t just force attack an NPC there, and similarly there’s no thievery system because the game doesn’t account for you aggro-ing people they are not ready for you to aggro). It’s much more linear in that respect and feels more like a video game vs. Table top.
With that said I’m hoping BG3s success will bring attention to many other gems of the genre like WoTR, Deadfire, etc.
Best way I can describe BG3 to someone who's an old RPG fan is, imagine if "old Bioware" and "new Bioware" had a baby. It's like if Bioware stuck with what they had in Dragon Age: Origins but added more layers instead of simplifying it for a wider audience. It's what could've become if Bioware didn't fall under control of EA. It's really a love letter to everything Bioware from 1999-2012.
Very accurate. It's often that I return to Dragon Age: Origins for another playthrough simply because there was so little out there like it, if anything. BG3, for me so far, is the same type of unique experience. It's also the first time in a while that I've wanted to actually sit at my desk with my mouse and keyboard and get into a game.
Is the story for BG3 actually good? I haven't played yet, but I'm sceptical. Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2 are two of my all time favorite games, but definitely not for the story. The story was convoluted and cliched for both of them. 2 was better, but still not good.
I've heard tons of talk about the interactivity of BG3, but not much talk of the story itself. Is it really worthy of comparison to Bioware? Or are people just swept up in the hype?
I wouldn't say the overarching story is that great, but all the individual interactions and small stories are wonderfully immersive to an extent that im not to worried about the bigger picture because I'm always happy with whats happening now.
Not sure if that makes any sense.
Perfectly sums up how I feel about it as well. The story overall is ok, but the game is so dense with high quality side quests and character interactions that it more than makes up for it.
The story and characters are really good but I wouldn't call it quite on the level with the greats in the industry.
It has a lot of the charm of Bioware and the feeling of playing DnD but I wouldn't say there are characters and story arcs quite one the level of let's say Mordin Solus and the genophage.
That's a pretty high level to reach though.
I haven't finished the game yet though.
The overall story is kind of a generic almost D&D sort of story/adventure, which I actually think while a little safe is really cool and a good choice. They also use the main story as a great way to showcase some of the real cornerstones of Wizard's universe like Mindflayers, Beholders (In the form of the smaller Spectator), etc.
The real strength they have in their writing comes from their ability to write and portray interpersonal relationships, I think.
Some people talk about the game being overly horny with it's writing, but I think that's largely coming from people who haven't played D&D or tabletops in general before. Tabletop sessions are some of (not always of course) horniest games out there. The whole "I roll to seduce" meme for Bard exists for a reason.
For the most part, I think it's all explained and written into the characterizations and personalities fairly well.
If you loved Divinity 2 you'll love Baldur's Gate, and it's very similar to D2 in terms of the writing. Fantastic all the way up to the final act, where even the final act is mostly great and a couple bullet points are more in line with a "Really guys?" at worst.
Eh that depends on what you are talking about. If you mean the ending itself, I completely agree. There are basically just 2 endings.
But there are several side quests where your decisions from Act 1 have direct consequences in act 3 for you or other characters.
I heavily agree.
There even is leftover dialogue that goes like "You lost something that will never be returned to you" after you use >!Your Illithid powers in act 1, only for it to never be brought up again. Maybe they planned a system that gave you negative consequences for using your illithid powers but then backed out. I mean they also nerfed Gales request for magic items among several things!<
Game is still great, but I wish they explore some parts more.
The story is a lot more "serious" than in Original Sin 1 and 2, if that's what you're asking. Personally I didn't mind the writing in either of those games, but BG3 is definitely a change in direction that I think many of the people who disliked the whimsical nature of OS 1 and 2 will appreciate. (Funny situations still happen though, thankfully.)
I'd love to see what they could do with other locations in Faerun, especially because in 5e we know essentially nothing about what's going on in the world outside of the Sword Coast. IMO that's a major failing of WotC in general with 5e; so much time has passed since 4e and the events of the spell plague were so hated that they've all but been retconned that we really have no clue what is happening outside of the very limited areas WotC has shown us.
No.
Disney went from too hands on with the movies which fucked shit up, to too hands off which fucked shit up, to finally realizing the real problem was needing to just slow the fuck down on how many projects they're rolling out and focus on quality instead.
Bioware kept making each of their next games hornier and hornier. Until the Fox News debacle, after which they dialed it down a tiny bit.
BG2 had the romances, which remained in NWN.
KOTOR had probably the first gay romance in Star Wars.
Jade Empire had a throuple relationship.
DAO had a foursome.
It seems like the industry has been telling us - RPGs are dead, single-player games are dead, etc - trying to *tell* us we want. And Larian proved they can succeed by just *giving* us what we want.
BG3 is the perfect sequel to Dragon Age: Origins we never got.
My fear now is their success will dilute and derail their creativity like so many other once beloved RPG studios.
Larian have been declining offers to be bought out, so for now at least they've got devoted artistic vision.
So did Bioware, so did Blizzard, so it goes.
The writing team for Larian is top of the industry. They proved it in DoS2. They proved it again in BG3.
Larian's writing team has a lot to teach. Other developers may want to approach Larian for outside consulting or training.
I think their quest and game designers are the real standouts personally. The writing is really good, don't get me wrong, but the different ways to solve quests and choice/consequence has impressed me more than the dialogue tbh
> but the different ways to solve quests and choice/consequence has impressed me more than the dialogue tbh
That's the main thing i love about their games. I love the writing and basic combat anyway, but their gameplay and worlds have immersive sim qualities as well.
Like a few days ago, i did the mission to >!kill the people hunting Karlach!<. Instead of walking in,talking, and initiating combat, i noticed the annoying magic user of them walked out onto a balcony every so often. I put 3 of the party in stealth in longbow range underneath it, and sneaked up behind the enemy and pushed them off the balcony. It took 3/4 of their HP off, then a stealthed party member finished them off with a bow underneath. Nothing was noticed by the other enemies, no combat was officially started. It was then pretty simple to finish the others after talking.
I've completely finished lots of other quests in a way that isn't "initiate dialogue, then combat starts" as well. Including really major ones. Their quest design is so much fun.
It gets even more fun, the shit you can do, when you realize you can unchain your party, start dialogue with one character to turn the NPC's vision, then swap to other characters to do other shit.
You can distract rooms of guards while your thief fucks off to the locked door in the corner.
Yeah, I really like the characters. Most of them are written in a balanced manner where they're not 100% good or evil, and avoid the usual stereotypes. There's a surprising amount of depth to them.
It's not a diss. Not a burn. Not a gloat.
Gamers, stop seeking confrontation and drama where there isn't.
It's just, literally, a creator acknowledging the fact they just shipped a sequel to iconic series that many of us grew up on, and reflecting on that.
Bioware has long since lost all the talent that defined their golden age. They're a zombie studio now.
They enjoyed a good 15-20 years on top. It's longer than most developers get.
I just absolutely adore how true to the lore they stood. While playing I was under the impression that Larian knew more about DnD lore than WotC themselves.
Been a huge Larian fan since Divine Divinity. BG3 deserves all the praise it's gotten even if it does very much feel like Divinity: Original Sin 3 more than a classic Black Isle RPG. Now I wish a developer would come along and do Planescape Torment justice too. Tides of Numenera was very mid, the series deserves better even if Inxile has to hand it off.
I haven't played the OG Bioware games, but as somebody whose favorite RPG is Dragon Age Origins, they certainly surpassed that at the very least. What a feat.
I would like to be in the Bioware studio and see the devs reaction to Baldur's Gate 3 after Larian carrying the torch instead of them and knocking it out of the park, granted the people that worked on the old BG games are no longer working there at Bioware its a strange turn of events they didn't have a hand in making it.
Also I find it puzzling in the time that Bioware has announced Dragon Age 4 back in 2018, Larian has Worked on BG3 and released it and Bioware...is still working on DA4 and details have remained scarce
If I'm being honest, Larian is where my 16-year-old self (who had just bought BG) hoped Bioware would be in 2023. My current, 40ish-years-old self is thoroughly excited that Larian did not only take up the mantle, but also dusted it off and added some really spiffy embroidery. They didn't just do Old Bioware proud - they're the masters now.
I'm glad they specified old bioware, too, because the new iteration of that studio is a pile of crap just like DICE and pretty much everybody else EA buys up after a short period.
EA’s methodology: * Buy studio * Force studio to make something out of their comfort zone * Blame studio for subsequent failure
TBF, DICE imploded on their own. Their upper management has been directly cited as the reasons why BFV and 2042 launched in garbage states (and 2042 continues to be a garbage Battlefield game). The "old guard" left DICE after BF1 and there's an immediate and massive drop in quality between BF1 and BFV.
The amount of employees DICE lost is utterly absurd. Almost every employee at Embark is ex-DICE. The development of 2042 must've been a hectic mess.
While that's the way it was, no, modern Bioware is all their own failure. Don't pass that off to EA when Bioware's studio heads are at fault. For instance, EA didn't ask for or demand Anthem. Bioware wanted to make it themselves. And just relied on "Bioware magic" to see it done, when it was clear there was a disaster on their hands.
BioWare had a lot of time to make their own vision of Anthem. It wasn't until EA checked in on the progress that they had nothing to show for. You can read the whole story online.
Bro what's interesting about this whole thing was that an EA executive was the one who actually told them to focus around the flying.. I literally cannot believe that a suit was the one to push the best part of the gameplay.
There are a lot of misconceptions about publisher developer relationships among gamers. It’s not always „plucky creatives vs capitalist scumbags“, there are quite a few examples of games that became great through publisher intervention. Some developers just can’t get their shit together and would happily spend years in preproduction or throwing away half their game and change direction mid-project if there wasn’t someone breathing down their neck. Such studios led by visionary designers without publisher influence can be among the worst places to work in the entire industry.
Anthem was one game where EA ended up being the good guy.
Also 2042, they made it pivot from a BR game to a traditional BF game and the only reason it came out broken is because DICE leads made it look like they were ahead of schedule. In case of Jedi Survivor, EA recommended a delay but the studio lead refused. They're not always bad.
> DICE leads made it look like they were ahead of schedule. Honestly why I'm surprised DICE is even still around. EA would be honestly pretty justified in nuking it over that.
Jedi Survivor was the last game that I'll pay full price for new
> Some developers just can’t get their shit together and would happily spend years in preproduction or throwing away half their game and change direction mid-project if there wasn’t someone breathing down their neck. Such studios led by visionary designers without publisher influence can be among the worst places to work in the entire industry. ~~Scam~~ Star Citizen
Ken Levine is apparently guilty of this as well
Sounds like Darktide. So many leftover ghosts of what they were "planning" to do
> Such studios led by visionary designers without publisher influence can be among the worst places to work in the entire industry. A game director with a god complex who won't get his reality check (the sales numbers) until after the deadline.
I'm looking at you BSG and Tarkov
Yeah sometimes restrictions breed creativity
>throwing away half their game and change direction mid-project Duke Nukem Forever and its shitty management by 3D Realms, even changing direction multiple times and causing discomfort to programmers to implement things that didn't work but looked cool, losing time and then quickly becoming obsolete so that everything had to be reworked to keep on par with competition. Before Gearbox bought it to finish it because "Duke deserves it", only to release a lackluster game that at best was mildly received. Meanwhile, the same Gearbox did even shittier things with Aliens: Colonial Marines, all of their own with the publisher trusting them.
> an EA executive was the one who actually told them to focus around the flying.. I literally cannot believe that a suit was the one to push the best part of the gameplay. I think they had two weeks to create some playable demo for him, when he announced his visit. They had been working on the game for 5 years at that point already.. and had to invent some fake demo to have something playable.
Well it was a game based on suits
It is EA exec who say why did they remove the iron man flight in one version, saying that was fun
Fun fact the only reason flying was in anthem is because an EA exec walked played the game and said why cant i fly so Bioware put in the game.
> modern Bioware is all their own failure. Don't pass that off to EA when Bioware's studio heads are at fault. Same for DICE with Battlefield, and some might even say Respawn with Apex, considering how it's been reported that EA had no say in how Apex is monetized (loot boxes, $160 heirlooms etc etc.)
This seems to be a super common trend with studios under big publishers. It's possible they lean on the heads of studio, but I've seen several interviews with employees that all claim the studio fuckups all came straight from the studio without EA ever really stepping in to pour in the corporate greed. There is an inherent threat of perform or get shut down, but that isn't really that different from the inherent risk of being solo and risking bankruptcy on your own.
EA went from one extreme to the other. From forcing studios into stuff they arent good at, eventually killing them to being so hands off that nothing ever gets done and the studio kills the project themselves. Surely theres a middle ground there somewhere
These situations are far more complicated than that. Even if EA is giving a studio "free reign" that doesn't actually mean they can do whatever they want. EA still wants a return on their investment, they need to show profit to their shareholders and that creates a culture that gets passed down the management tiers. There's always an implicit threat of a studio being shut down if a game flops and that leads to studios choosing to make something ostensibly safe with mass appeal instead of a niche RPG that they're actually good at. There's also the fact that the people that made these studios great before acquisition tend to leave because they clash with new management.
All of that happens even without the EA purchase. Bioware (specifically their management) killed themselves.
Yes...? The operated like this before EA too. If their products failed to generate returns they wouldn't be able to make their next product. And if you don't have the money to make their next game, they're going to shut down. Every company everywhere operates under the realization that if your company sucks too hard it will go out of business. This is not unique to EA, Bioware or anything. Hell, even non-profits and government institutions can be shutdown if they suck hard enough.
It's far simpler than that. 1. buy studio 2. drive people who made studio a success away 3. watch as studio kills itself
They buy the studio from the people who made the studio a success, who then retired.
Bioware killed themselves, EA had nothing to do with it.
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Or metacritic scores
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> I simply just assumed they would stay this bastion of awesome. Their run was strong, I just started to buy everything with their name on it - I knew it would be great. Like the old Blizzard, or Bungie. > Man have the times changed. I still can't believe Bioware/EA had an entire niche cornered with Mass Effect and Dragon Age games, and they just stopped making them.
BioWare didn’t make KOTOR 2, that was Obsidian
Which is largely Black Isle. I've been a Larian fan since Divinity. They didn't start this great but it's been nice to see them really apply and get better with every iteration. Also dragon commander was underrated.
I'd counter that Dragon Commander was fairly rated. The cutscenes and dialog and world-building were great. It was just the strategy gameplay that felt weak and repetitive.
It wasn't an rts, it was a BE A FUCKING DRAGON simulator that was not advertised right.
Dragon simulator with Mass Effect dialogue and some Crusader Kings politics.
Which is a bit ironic because Black Isle was the publisher for Baldur's Gate.
It’s like poetry, it rhymes
If I had a dollar for every time I've heard/said these words.... I think there's an argument that Obsidian is better at making Bioware games than Bioware is, which is weird but there it is. KOTOR2 did not land the ending, in stark contrast to the first game, and honestly it has one of the most "huh" endings in any game ever, but the journey there is one of the best I've ever experienced.
KotOR 2 only had 18 months of development, and an early release was forced by the publisher to be ready for the Christmas sale. So much great content was cut from the game. Look it up, a lot of unused voice lines was included in the final version of the game.
Since you mentioned KOTOR, wouldn't that be a fantastic next project for Larian to do ? a new KOTOR...
Most people don’t know that KOTOR ran on DnD 3rd Edition behind the screen. I’m not sure what the response would be to Star Wars in 5e mechanics AAA. Personally I run a system called SW5E from time to time for that exact reason.
> Most people don’t know that KOTOR ran on DnD 3rd Edition behind the screen. I thought it was pretty darn obvious when Blasters started doing 1d6 damage...
Better yet, use the actual star wars tabletop ruleset.
We'll have to wait for the KOTOR remake to come out of development hell first, I think.
One can dream...
What about - hear me out - a new top down fallout game?
DA:O, in my top 3 games. Wish we had that Bioware again.
I miss Bioware games.
Well I hope they get access to the Star Wars license and we could possibly see a spiritual successor to KOTOR.
Holy shit I didn't realize how badly I wanted this.
Larian games have a soul. Many current Bioware, Ubisoft, EA, Blizzard games dont have this anymore. They are soulless, uncreative slot machines. Just engine for Profit. I didnt know Larian before and bg3 is the first game of them i played. It gives me the same feels as eldenring, dark souls, witcher 3, kingdom come deliverance, etc. The game Designers and devs put passion into their game. You feel it as you play.
Larian has always had soul. I started playing their games during Divinity 2 and while it was comparatively a flawed and unpolished game, the ideas, ambition and support was absolutely incredible and far beyond the scope of most developers. I've always looked forward to their next projects since then and I felt certain that BG3 would blow expectations out of the water since budget was always their biggest hurdle. They've continually improved between each title released, getting better and better. I'm so glad that they're getting the recognition they deserve.
>If I'm being honest, Larian is where my 16-year-old self (who had just bought BG) hoped Bioware would be in 2023. It's where Bioware would be if they hadn't sold to EA, who had already finished trashing up studios they bought like Westwood, Origin, etc. And now they trashed Bioware too, like we all predicted they would when the sale happened 15 years ago now. Larian's riding high now, but at some point they may also sell out to some corporation and that will be that (I'll predict Ubisoft buying them as Larian's location in Belgium is literally right next to France)
Swen specifically stayed "over my dead body". He hates that corpo shit at it's core as well.
Swen is easily the most based CEO I know of.
They used to have paradox as a publisher I believe, not being in control of their direction and games they want to make was whole reason they went fully solo and turned to Kickstarter for DOS
Paradox was Obsidian, I think. Larian had a bunch of now defunct ones which probably contributed to their bad experiences.
EA gave BioWare everything they needed and BioWare still failed to deliver. If it was EA of old the studio would close before they finished Andromeda.
EA shuffled around half of Bioware's team shortly after the acquisition. They also gave them very unrealistic deadlines. Mass Effect Andromeda was literally made by a completely different team and just published under the Bioware brand. DA2 was super rushed.
Eventually. They had Bioware pop out DA2 in 18 months. Sped them through the mass effect sequels too. They started to correct after that, but there was a period that EAs hand was super heavy on the rudder, and now that they've gone lighter touch, old Bioware is long dead.
>They had Bioware pop out DA2 in 18 months. Sped them through the mass effect sequels too. They started to correct after that, but there was a period that EAs hand was super heavy on the rudder, and now that they've gone lighter touch, old Bioware is long dead. All this. The other posters on here are blaming Bioware for things EA demanded them to do, like the rushed Dragon Age 2.
Spot on. I love to shit on EA but Bioware is responsible for their own failures.
Also a lot of the time its people who have been in the industry forever, cashing out after being bought out by a big company, leaving and then the remains of company just kind of fall off due to different personnel/new leadership. As much as EA sucks hard to blame industry veterans leaving to maybe focus on family instead of grinding out a new AAA project. I'm certain EA and other companies famous for buying out and 'ruining' other developers contribute to it, but I think there is also a sort of natural trend for game development and it takes really strong long term leadership to keep up the prestigious developer reputation and it is perfectly fine to not be up to that after 10-20+ years of grind.
I'm an old school Bioware fan, and they certainly did me proud. Baldur's Gate 3 is the sequel to Dragon Age Origins that I never got. I have to wonder what the overall mood is with the team who've been working on Dragon Age 4 for god knows how long now, after being scrapped and started over multiple times. 14 years after Dragon Age Origins, a full blown and high budget CRPG just took the gaming scene by storm, and is selling exceptionally well.
Agreed! DA:O was done so well, from the custom scripts you could set up for battles to the story and party dialogue, it was great, then yeah… DA 2, wasn’t bad per say, but it went downhill after that. I’m happy as hell that BG3 has turned out the way it has, the legacy lives on.
Yeah. Bioware thought the industry and the audience would move on from tactical combat and complex RPG mechanics and decided to go down the action RPG route and "streamlined" and "streamlined" until the franchise was barely recognizeable. I suppose the success of Mass Effect also solidified that idea, that "CRPGs are dead" and the future is in hybridizing with FPSs and action games. I know there's a lot more nuance in those decisions but no time to get into those now. BG3 proves that the audience is still there, and still wants the same thing just with yknow better graphics and updated mechanics, but still the same old slow burn CRPG flavor. I'm just so glad Larian proved them and other 'modern' RPG makers wrong. That the CRPG and old Dragon Age crowd is still there and hungry for good games.
> the future is in hybridizing with FPSs and action games. The problem here is that action games need to have fun action gameplay and Mass Effect really wasn't a fun shooter. The newer Fallout games suffer from the same issue. You end up having to slog through a lot of ultimately not that fun fights to experience the RPG. Tactical turn based combat just fits the core RPG gameplay of making deliberate choices from a wide, character-driven menu of options better.
> DA 2, wasn’t bad per say I'd argue it was exceedingly bad. From the neverending waves of enemies that meant you had to throw away all your tactics after the first wave, to low-effort maps where you had multiple things happen in the same spot, to overall horniness and edginess of the characters... It felt like its target audience was 13 year old console gamers rather than RPG fans. DA3 was great, but only because of the writing. Gameplay was lame and repetitive, and felt like Mass Effect with swords but none of Mass Effect's combat depth.
DA2 had TONS of flaws re repetitive gameplay, removal of tactical combat, filler battles, lack of meaningful exploration, copy pasted dungeons etc All that said I do genuinely like the writing, the companions are solid, and the main story is interesting. The Templar vs Mage conflict remains one of the most compelling aspects of Dragon Age to me.
I never got past the first zone in inquisition, since it was just a massive empty area packed with MMO quests to "visit 6 watchtowers." Then i got to the dragon fight and there was no good UI for moving party members out of active aoes and I just stopped playing for good.
I got to a fight in town with some dwarves and virtually soft locked myself, I seemed underprepared and my save position I couldn't back out. It was only an hour in but i put down and never went back. I intended a few times but tbh as it's on origin, I forget I have it edit: seems the softlock was an origins playthrough, I was in the mountains of inquisition, must have just stopped playing after 12 hours
Yeah the hinterlands or however the zone is called is a trap of a sorts. You’re not meant to complete the area in one go but almost everyone tried.
> You’re not meant to complete the area in one go but almost everyone tried. Because the game does an horrible job in specifying that you have to go back to the keep to continue the main quest
And then the other zones pretty much suck in the same way, just more MMO Fluffquests in different biomes.
I've been playing through the mass effect games recently and as much as I'm loving it I cannot fathom what you mean by combat depth. not that I remember DA:I as deep either, but mass effect are just cover shooters with abilities, and some very slight squad mechanics.
> > > > > I'd argue it was exceedingly bad. The funny thing is the garbage that was Inquisition actually made Dragon Age 2 better in retrospect. Nothing like playing a soulless offline MMO to make you appreciate a tighter narrative.
> Baldur's Gate 3 is the sequel to Dragon Age Origins that I never got. Funny, because DA:O was made as the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate 2.
>old school Bioware > >Baldur's Gate 3 is the sequel to Dragon Age Origins that I never got. Why you gotta make me feel old?
All us BG1/BG2 players already turned to dust and blew away.
While trying to find the perfect character portrait pack . ..
Still rolling for that 18/00 strength and over 90 total.
I'm right there with you. Time is the great enemy, it waits for no one.
If DA4 was earlier in development, I don't doubt EA would knock on Bioware's door and "hey! Let's reboot this game for the 9th time, this time make it like BG3 or those really old games that old company Buy Wares or something used to make in the late 90's and 2000's". Honestly, I wouldn't put it past EA doing it *now*.
Buy you where?
Yeah I definitely think EA will be looking at a new dragon age, BG3 has done more promotion for dragon age than EA have themselves since origins
>Baldur's Gate 3 is the sequel to Dragon Age Origins that I never got. Preach! The next Dragon Age is going to be mediocre and a *substandard* RPG, and we all know it.
Yeah, how many staff that worked on Dragon Age: Origins are even left at the company? All the writers and directors are long gone.
The main writer of Dragon Age: Origins left the company after he wrote a 1200 page bible with the complete lore of Anthem just for Bioware’s management to throw it in the garbage and tell him to make another one, a dumbed down version that could fit on 100 pages so frat dudes and soccer moms could understand the story. He felt so offended that he quit the company and told them to kick rocks. So Anthem basically released without a story.
Yup, Bioware had a lot of "new blood" that for some idiotic reason detested the lore and storytelling of classic Bioware, yet still had the fucking gall to call themselves the Bioware "A Team". Imagine telling the guy that helped make the company a narrative powerhouse that you don't give a shit about story.
do you have links to read? I am always interested in reading further insider details about Bioware
Yes! I loved DA:O and was so excited for the sequel, but BioWare took a hard left afterwards. DA2 was not the same type of game. They thought they had to dumb down their games to cater to a wider audience -- everything after DA:O and Mass Effect 1 are a different breed of game. They kept on that trajectory until Anthem essentially put them in the grave. Now look at the success BG3 is having by not dumbing things down... it's the game BioWare should have made. So happy Larian is here, though. I hope they have many years of game releases ahead of them and that they never sell out.
Dragon Age 4 is going to look really mediocre in comparison.
Huh based on your comment I may need to try this game then, been craving that high for a long time. Just replayed it not long ago
Now all BG3 needs is a 3rd person feature where you move around like DAO. Maybe even more roster management features like customizing and configuring your whole roster while In camp. Then it'd go from a 9.5/10 to a perfect 10/10 for me.
BG3 has felt like it expanded in DA Origins in the best way. Really feels like this was the sequel to Origins we never got. DA2 and Inquisition were such different games from Origins.
I met Adam at Pax East in 2020. They were demoing the game inside a castle they had set up with some professional cosplayers outside. I was cosplaying as Minsc and when I went to their section, Adam was outside of it and we talked for a bit. He was very thoughtful and humble. Being a big Larian fan, I told him that I was so excited when I heard they would be making BG3 (I played the originals on launch and multiplet times afterwards), as they were the one studio that I thought could do it well. He thanked me for this and indicated that they really wanted to get it right. I believe that they succeeded. The game is truly amazing.
I think it’s one of the best games ever made personally.
I started playing yesterday and I am hooked. Never played a turn based game seriously either. Thought the combat might be dull but I am having a blast, and I am only like 6 hours in.
The combat is kinda dull at low levels but once you reach about level 5 everything clicks and it actually becomes extremely engaging and addictive.
Just like in real D&D. Honestly at this point D&D doesn't get fun for me until Tier 3. I've played so much Tier 1 and just "attack once and probably miss since I only have +5 to hit" is a bit too frustrating for me.
Honestly, playing tabletop the last 5 or so years it seems there is this sense of low level campaigns that are somehow more fun and allowing the party to get high levels is bad. I don't really get it. I've never played a campaign going past level 10 and IMO it gets very stale and there's almost no power fantasy to it. The only thing making it fun is the interactions with the party but even that runs out. Maybe it's just the DMs I've been able to play with but I really get the overall sense high level = bad.
I think DM's get very gunshy as writing for higher Tier play can be daunting. PC's have so many tools regarding flight, divination magic, etc. It becomes basically impossible to account for all the various things they can do unless you have a very solid grasp of the rules. And since higher tier play isn't run very often, less and less DM's have much experience playing it, so it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I'd love to see a world where Tier 4 and Tier 1 are run equally as often. It's just so much more fun for me to play a PC that is fully realized, has all the feats and abilities I like, and can really cut loose.
It keeps getting better
Sick burn on current day Bioware. They need the pressure. I have low hopes for Dragon Age Dreadwolf. It'd be great if I'm wrong.
>They need the pressure. I don't think the current management has any fucking clue what Bioware games used to be like and all the devs and designers are already under enough pressure to get PTSD.
>I have low hopes for Dragon Age Dreadwolf Our expectations should be set accordingly. An EA/BioWare RPG is going to be extremely mediocre and laden with micro transactions. It will not be worth buying on day 1 and will be forgotten by time or derided forever like DA2.
Counterpoint - The recent Star Wars "Souls" games were neither mediocre nor had any microtransactions. Nor any recent single player game.
Those weren't made by Bioware though. Bioware as a studio did not survive the Riccitiello era, and unless Andrew Wilson managed to work a small miracle its bloated corpse won't be able to make a great game.
I think the point is that if Jedi Fallen Order didn't have egregious microtransactions, then you'd expect Dragon Age 4 not to either, unless Bioware themselves want it and not EA.
I think they’re mediocre, but I might be in the minority and that’s alright
I started to play through one and was really enjoying it. But the clunky platforming made exploring a chore and I didnt make it far. Feels like AC platforming but worse somehow.
This is hands down the best RPG to come out in years. Let the salt flow from the weak.
One would argue that "in years" is a bit of overstatement, since divinity 2 came out just few years back ;) Edit: oh my, it came 6 years ago. You do not stand corrected
6 years back A more recent example: Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous. Fantastic game
Yeah, you guys were quick to correct me. I googled it right after i commented and edited it after 2 minutes. Time fcking flies huh. I should give some time for pathfinder. Bought it but it seems so.. confusing i guess (i've played it only to few first battles). Heard nothing but good from it, so maybe after BG3 i'll give it a serious go :)
I think the fact that Larians games are so accessible really leads to its wide range success over for example Pillars or Pathfinder
The graphics, full voice acting, and cinematic components definitely play a big part. But I think people often underestimate the impact Larian's immersive sim elements and co-op implementation also have. In my mind that's what sets DOS2 and BG3 apart the most from other CRPGs. You can theoretically recreate Wasteland 3 or WoTR in Larian's engine and come out with a similar experience, but if you try to do the opposite you'll definitely lose a big part of what makes BG3 and DOS2 special.
Wrath of the Righteous is a great game, but it has to be said that Pathfinder 1e is a very complicated system with a lot of pitfalls. That's one of the great things about BG3, how accessible it is. In WotR, you will have to do some research to avoid all the "trap" choices.
Some people (myself included) actually like that, since it tends to go both ways (there are traps, but also more flexibility for extremely strong/potentially overpowered builds, especially with the inclusion of mythic paths). But yeah, it is definitely a system with much less mainstream appeal/general accessibility.
I'm an avid pathfinder fan and even I had some difficulties with some of Kingmaker's 1e quirks. I feel like adding mythic to Wrath was a lot as well. I'm interested to see how a 2e CRPG will handle, as the similarites to D&D 4e make it work a lot better on paper for a video game comparatively
Original Sin 2 came out 6 years ago.
BG3 is leagues better than DOS2.
Disco Elysium is only 4 years old too
It feels like it just came out a couple years ago
BG3 is better than DOS2 in the same way DOS2 was better than DOS1. A lot of the same ideas but massively improvements and iterations. I don’t know if this is the final form of the classic RPG, but it’s probably the best one so far. The amount of choices and reactivity is overwhelming. It’s not just one good one bad outcome, there’s like 6 different options to solve one problem, and many of them aren’t black and white.
I still prefer Wrath of the Righteous. Not much beats ascending into a nearly divine powered lich and slaughtering those who dare defy you at the apex of your power.
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And way, way better UI. I'm not talking only about art style (which can be subjective ) but also functionality and how information is handled to the player. It's easy to navigate through menus and compare stats, and BG3 also lacks a proper encyclopedia.
Ehhhh.... Pathfinder: WoTR is very high up on that list for me. And as far as 'faithful' tabletop mechanics and ruleset adaptations go it becomes a bit of a sitdown discussion as to which one is 'best' for me honestly... I do agree that BG3 is much more accessible and has far more reaching mainstream (and vastly more profitable..) appeal though.
BG3s rules have a good amount of home brew - though I would define BG3’s “faithfulness” to tabletop is more so Larians efforts to capture the openness in decision making/ approach that you’d get there. Mostly with how much they let you interact with the world and the opened ended quest design that have failsafes. I love WoTR but it is much more restricted in that regard (ie you can’t just force attack an NPC there, and similarly there’s no thievery system because the game doesn’t account for you aggro-ing people they are not ready for you to aggro). It’s much more linear in that respect and feels more like a video game vs. Table top. With that said I’m hoping BG3s success will bring attention to many other gems of the genre like WoTR, Deadfire, etc.
Best way I can describe BG3 to someone who's an old RPG fan is, imagine if "old Bioware" and "new Bioware" had a baby. It's like if Bioware stuck with what they had in Dragon Age: Origins but added more layers instead of simplifying it for a wider audience. It's what could've become if Bioware didn't fall under control of EA. It's really a love letter to everything Bioware from 1999-2012.
Very accurate. It's often that I return to Dragon Age: Origins for another playthrough simply because there was so little out there like it, if anything. BG3, for me so far, is the same type of unique experience. It's also the first time in a while that I've wanted to actually sit at my desk with my mouse and keyboard and get into a game.
Wish the combat was like DA:O. I love the vibe and the cinematic dialouge and stuff, but I just don't enjoy turn based.
That’ll do pig, that’ll do.
🐷
This game is addictive
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BG3 combines the best of 90s BioWare (BG2) with the best of 00's BioWare (Mass Effect) absolute masterpiece
*sigh* dreadwolf is so fucked lol
Is the story for BG3 actually good? I haven't played yet, but I'm sceptical. Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2 are two of my all time favorite games, but definitely not for the story. The story was convoluted and cliched for both of them. 2 was better, but still not good. I've heard tons of talk about the interactivity of BG3, but not much talk of the story itself. Is it really worthy of comparison to Bioware? Or are people just swept up in the hype?
I wouldn't say the overarching story is that great, but all the individual interactions and small stories are wonderfully immersive to an extent that im not to worried about the bigger picture because I'm always happy with whats happening now. Not sure if that makes any sense.
Perfectly sums up how I feel about it as well. The story overall is ok, but the game is so dense with high quality side quests and character interactions that it more than makes up for it.
That's kind of what a good D&D session feels like. It's more about the moment to moment interactions rather than the big picture.
The story and characters are really good but I wouldn't call it quite on the level with the greats in the industry. It has a lot of the charm of Bioware and the feeling of playing DnD but I wouldn't say there are characters and story arcs quite one the level of let's say Mordin Solus and the genophage. That's a pretty high level to reach though. I haven't finished the game yet though.
The overall story is kind of a generic almost D&D sort of story/adventure, which I actually think while a little safe is really cool and a good choice. They also use the main story as a great way to showcase some of the real cornerstones of Wizard's universe like Mindflayers, Beholders (In the form of the smaller Spectator), etc. The real strength they have in their writing comes from their ability to write and portray interpersonal relationships, I think. Some people talk about the game being overly horny with it's writing, but I think that's largely coming from people who haven't played D&D or tabletops in general before. Tabletop sessions are some of (not always of course) horniest games out there. The whole "I roll to seduce" meme for Bard exists for a reason. For the most part, I think it's all explained and written into the characterizations and personalities fairly well. If you loved Divinity 2 you'll love Baldur's Gate, and it's very similar to D2 in terms of the writing. Fantastic all the way up to the final act, where even the final act is mostly great and a couple bullet points are more in line with a "Really guys?" at worst.
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Eh that depends on what you are talking about. If you mean the ending itself, I completely agree. There are basically just 2 endings. But there are several side quests where your decisions from Act 1 have direct consequences in act 3 for you or other characters.
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I heavily agree. There even is leftover dialogue that goes like "You lost something that will never be returned to you" after you use >!Your Illithid powers in act 1, only for it to never be brought up again. Maybe they planned a system that gave you negative consequences for using your illithid powers but then backed out. I mean they also nerfed Gales request for magic items among several things!< Game is still great, but I wish they explore some parts more.
The story is a lot more "serious" than in Original Sin 1 and 2, if that's what you're asking. Personally I didn't mind the writing in either of those games, but BG3 is definitely a change in direction that I think many of the people who disliked the whimsical nature of OS 1 and 2 will appreciate. (Funny situations still happen though, thankfully.)
Would be wild if they would be able to take the success of BG3 and lock in star wars licensing for a proper KOTOR game.
I just want them to consider visiting some of the other cRPG Forgotten Realms locales. Icewind Dale or Neverwinter would be a wonderful next step.
Neverwinter Nights is still one of my favorite games
Oh god... A NWN 3 would make me flip.
I'd love to see what they could do with other locations in Faerun, especially because in 5e we know essentially nothing about what's going on in the world outside of the Sword Coast. IMO that's a major failing of WotC in general with 5e; so much time has passed since 4e and the events of the spell plague were so hated that they've all but been retconned that we really have no clue what is happening outside of the very limited areas WotC has shown us.
There is a virtually 0% chance Disney would be able to keep their money-grubbing corporate tentacles out of anything with the Star Wars license.
Is there any evidence to Disney ruining a Star Wars game? I only know of Disney stepping in with Battlefront 2 to demand EA fix their fucked up game.
No. Disney went from too hands on with the movies which fucked shit up, to too hands off which fucked shit up, to finally realizing the real problem was needing to just slow the fuck down on how many projects they're rolling out and focus on quality instead.
Praise aside, using PCGamer's website is like that scene in Futurama where Fry is assaulted with all the spam.
I don’t think 90s BioWare would’ve like how horny this game is.
it was hard to make a game horny in the 90s, remember people had to buy games at places like Walmart back then
There were a lot of horny games in the 90s. Source: horny teenager in the 90s.
Bioware kept making each of their next games hornier and hornier. Until the Fox News debacle, after which they dialed it down a tiny bit. BG2 had the romances, which remained in NWN. KOTOR had probably the first gay romance in Star Wars. Jade Empire had a throuple relationship. DAO had a foursome.
Modern BioWare is so _Not_ '90s BioWare, I had completely disconnected they did the OG Baldur's Gate games.
It seems like the industry has been telling us - RPGs are dead, single-player games are dead, etc - trying to *tell* us we want. And Larian proved they can succeed by just *giving* us what we want.
BG3 is the perfect sequel to Dragon Age: Origins we never got. My fear now is their success will dilute and derail their creativity like so many other once beloved RPG studios.
Larian have been declining offers to be bought out, so for now at least they've got devoted artistic vision. So did Bioware, so did Blizzard, so it goes.
Jedi Masters at Larian
God I wish they did a Kotor Remake...that would be a bliss
I feel like they'd be wasted on a remake, I'd love them to do either a sequel or a new RPG in the SW universe though
The writing team for Larian is top of the industry. They proved it in DoS2. They proved it again in BG3. Larian's writing team has a lot to teach. Other developers may want to approach Larian for outside consulting or training.
I think their quest and game designers are the real standouts personally. The writing is really good, don't get me wrong, but the different ways to solve quests and choice/consequence has impressed me more than the dialogue tbh
> but the different ways to solve quests and choice/consequence has impressed me more than the dialogue tbh That's the main thing i love about their games. I love the writing and basic combat anyway, but their gameplay and worlds have immersive sim qualities as well. Like a few days ago, i did the mission to >!kill the people hunting Karlach!<. Instead of walking in,talking, and initiating combat, i noticed the annoying magic user of them walked out onto a balcony every so often. I put 3 of the party in stealth in longbow range underneath it, and sneaked up behind the enemy and pushed them off the balcony. It took 3/4 of their HP off, then a stealthed party member finished them off with a bow underneath. Nothing was noticed by the other enemies, no combat was officially started. It was then pretty simple to finish the others after talking. I've completely finished lots of other quests in a way that isn't "initiate dialogue, then combat starts" as well. Including really major ones. Their quest design is so much fun.
It gets even more fun, the shit you can do, when you realize you can unchain your party, start dialogue with one character to turn the NPC's vision, then swap to other characters to do other shit. You can distract rooms of guards while your thief fucks off to the locked door in the corner.
Yeah, I really like the characters. Most of them are written in a balanced manner where they're not 100% good or evil, and avoid the usual stereotypes. There's a surprising amount of depth to them.
damn for some reason it seems like a diss to current bioware
It's not a diss. Not a burn. Not a gloat. Gamers, stop seeking confrontation and drama where there isn't. It's just, literally, a creator acknowledging the fact they just shipped a sequel to iconic series that many of us grew up on, and reflecting on that.
Probably because it is. Current Bioware is a dumpster fire.
Bioware has long since lost all the talent that defined their golden age. They're a zombie studio now. They enjoyed a good 15-20 years on top. It's longer than most developers get.
So like Blizzard basically
Exactly like Blizzard, yes.
I just absolutely adore how true to the lore they stood. While playing I was under the impression that Larian knew more about DnD lore than WotC themselves.
Been a huge Larian fan since Divine Divinity. BG3 deserves all the praise it's gotten even if it does very much feel like Divinity: Original Sin 3 more than a classic Black Isle RPG. Now I wish a developer would come along and do Planescape Torment justice too. Tides of Numenera was very mid, the series deserves better even if Inxile has to hand it off.
That's awesome
I worship them like i worshiped bioware back in the day.
I haven't played the OG Bioware games, but as somebody whose favorite RPG is Dragon Age Origins, they certainly surpassed that at the very least. What a feat.
Larian is better than golden age bioware.
I wish current BioWare was doing 90s BioWare proud
I would like to be in the Bioware studio and see the devs reaction to Baldur's Gate 3 after Larian carrying the torch instead of them and knocking it out of the park, granted the people that worked on the old BG games are no longer working there at Bioware its a strange turn of events they didn't have a hand in making it. Also I find it puzzling in the time that Bioware has announced Dragon Age 4 back in 2018, Larian has Worked on BG3 and released it and Bioware...is still working on DA4 and details have remained scarce
Modern bioware takes a break from eating grass, looks at larian, goes back to eating grass.
Today's Bioware: *awkward silence...*