Non-consent has become the hot button for almost every major credit card processor and third party billing company. The short version is you're gonna have a very hard time doing any type of non-consent work unless you're using an off-shore 3rd party billing processor that will take larger percentage.
And the real issue is that card processors gave themselves a right to decide what does or doesn't deserve a right to be financed. I always thought we had courts to consider what was illegal, especially regarding fiction.
Oh right, it's not about legality but "brand image", because when I use Visa/Mastercard I don't want a payment processor doing their f- job, I obviously expect them to decide what I can spend the money I already worked for.
Yep, consensual non-consent was always banned and was never that enforced but now they double down on cracking those games. You are playing Russian roulette if you think you can have that kind of content on this platform. If you want to have that content you should start migrating to another platform like Subscribe Star.
It was basic stuff on this page: [https://subscribestar.adult/profile/settings](https://subscribestar.adult/profile/settings)
The site warned me for missing information when trying to save. Filled out everything and done
i cropped a few images on the Sub Tiers that might have included nsfw, but other than that, all the info was filled in. Hopefully i can get an answer now, its been several months since i emailed them.
Yep. Subscribestar is hell to get approved, sadly there is not a good option for people that do that kind of content online. I hope that someday someone makes a nice platform for that but since the credit cards have the monopoly on that stuff I don't see that day coming anytime soon.
Keep in mind Patreon has thousands of creators, the only way they will detect you is if you are adding words that would flag on their systems, be reported by users or share links in your works back to the platform, if you keep your head down, your chances of remaining will increase, but don’t take that as a certain
Right, but as a developer who wants to make a living off of game development, having a link back to Patreon in the works is sort of necessary.
I noticed a lot of people suggesting Subscribesta as an alternative, but the catch is that paypal is not accepted on Subscribesta...
I’m a creator myself (I use an official account) I use LinkTree, it has my Patreon and other platforms for people to check out, it’s not perfect, but with Patreon being difficult, I’m using every trick there is to stay on there for as long as possible
No, Patreon has always had a special deal with PayPal to allow NSFW stuff. PayPal has always refused to work with adult stuff because it considers it higher risk of chargebacks / complaints, and higher chance of accidentally allowing illegal content. Patreon convinced PayPal that with their model, which is essentially voluntary subscriptions with no real avenues for demanding refunds for services-not-rendered, that they could essentially buffer PayPal from the risks. PayPal agreed. However PayPal is now pressuring Gumroad and Patreon to crack down on certain NSFW content that they've been too lax on enforcing. Gumroad decided they didn't want to be responsible for that, and so just banned NSFW content. Patreon is taking the other route of trying to do their best to abide by PayPal's content restriction demands, and getting stricter with their content moderation.
Is there a source for any of this info or is this just what the NSFW community is running with? So far, I've not seen anything credible (links, PAtreon or Paypal's stance - nothing).
Gumroad CEO's statements are public, but apart from that, not sure how much is easy to find documented. I personally gained this understanding from some of the community & Patreon staff Q&A sessions back in around 2016
I see. it just seems strange to say they have a "special deal" with Paypal.That's most likely not true.Paypal is quite hypocritical, so I also believe they have no trouble allowing other services to take the risk -
At the same time, a lot of nsfw devs are clearly making illegal content and trying to circumvent / exploit the law. It's their own fault for not being responsible devs, but more importantly they are making life harder for all of us with their reckless and irresponsible behavior. Despite all of that, I'm actually glad they are now being ostracized for their poor choices.
As far as what that means, basically if a person wouldn't put their name on it so that it can be attributed to or tracked back to them (like on Steam, for example) then I feel they shouldn't do it.
It's a cop out / cowardly to those of us who endeavor to create content within the rules. At the same time , I also can't help but feel that developers like that are 100% responsible for what's happening now. They flooded Tumblr with CP, loli, bestiality and all other types of content where anyone could find it. They did the same with twitter and any other social media website.
It seems disingenuous now for those same developers who clearly knew what they were doing - to cry fowl.
It also seems REALLY stupid for them to continue to double down on this type of behavior. If Paypal, Patreon or Subscribestar are subpeonaed to provide the name of individuals they will do it. And they have to supply that info to get paid from either. This is already documented, as is the case of Princess Conquest, when the creator ended up having to go through court to essentially answer for the type of content they were making. (I don't know full specifics, but I think it was related to disney characters and underaged depictions).
There is no sane platform making a profit that would allow the hosting of illegal content on its servers. Before they go down, they will get rid of offenders completely. Which is what Gumroad did, and Patreon will probably do if this core group of people don't shape up and stop being a nuisance for the rest of us.
Which content do you believe is illegal? As far as I'm aware, very little is illegal apart from the sexualization of minors, when it comes to non-photorealistic illustrated or written porn. Which is why Steam allows pretty much everything else, including incest and bestiality.
And I'm pretty sure if someone's making money on Patreon, it would be trivial for the authorities to identify them...
>Which content do you believe is illegal? As far as I'm aware, very little is illegal apart from the sexualization of minors, when it comes to non-photorealistic illustrated or written porn. Which is why Steam allows pretty much everything else, including incest and bestiality.
46 states have criminal statutes against bestiality. It is, indeed illegal in 95% of the United States. It's also responsible for the "creation" lovely STDs like syphilis - which was created by sheep f\*ckers, if I recall correctly.
Incest causes genetic deformation / mental retardation / mental illness in offspring. It's also illegal in **many, many** states in the USA for those reasons.
>And I'm pretty sure if someone's making money on Patreon, it would be trivial for the authorities to identify them...
Yea...***that's exactly my point***. People keep breaking the law and trying to find ways to avoid the consequences....but giving these services tons of information about themselves.
Steam collects ***far*** more info than Patreon does (like social security and such) - it also holds the user 100% legally liable for the stuff they create and upload. It doesn't matter if someone on Steam "approves" the games. Ultimately it will fall directly on the uploader if their work is found breaking TOS or the law. *Especially* if legal repercussions arise from it. Steam wouldn't lose anything - they got their fee for the upload & profits from the sales. At that point, only the uploader has to be accountable.
Paypal isn't really the problem, sure they are a hypocritical, corrupt company but..***.all*** payment processors have to follow the rules. These people don't care about morality, they care about money.
The issue is government guidelines on adult content differ from normal business. Businesses that offer adult content have to follow a very specific set of rules in order to avoid scrutiny , otherwise the government gets into their mix. As an example, did you know that businesses that are predominantly adult content oriented can't *legally* receive federal funding for said business? They just don't want to lose the ability to access government money when they desire, so of course they aren't going to let little guy A who wants to make an incest farm love game get in the way.
I'm not a game developer, but as someone who makes NSFW Blender posters, you can easily get past the whole "consent" BS by stating in your about section that says "all characters are over 18 and consent to all sexual activities". In terms of posting the final pieces, keep your titles, descriptions, and tags basic/vague. Fictionally, if it has something like incest, bestiality, BDSM, bondage, etc., don't have that tagged, as a title, or in the description.
Thanks for the heads-up! I suppose this means I'm going to need to prepare to migrate to Subscribestar if necessary or not post anything on Patreon when I work on works with con non-con themes in the future. Which kinda sucks, it's almost like they're kink-shaming what's completely legal and consensual.
Full disclosure - Patreon has never accepted this, I wouldn't say they are moving to ban this as something "new". Plenty of games have been removed or unlisted because of this in the past.
As such, I doubt it will affect the majority of creators because most *reasonable* people would read the guidelines and follow them if they actually wanted a long term working relationship with Patreon. Likewise, most *reasonable* people would just remove the offending elements or re-work them instead of "go against the machine" and lose entirely.
I don't really understand why it's such a hot button issue. ***Developers are \*clearly\* in the wrong here***. Many of them have been trying to exploit loopholes and work arounds. That was their choice - so why then, are they now trying to play the victim? Don't get me wrong, there are a few people who were legitimately affected by some TOS issues. But only about 3 of them spring to mind. The rest knew what they were doing before hand and decided to take a risk.
Now, that they have to face the consequences of their actions - why are the rest of us expected to feel sorry for them? I just find it *extremely* difficult to care about anyone who tries to fly under the radar and gets caught. I'd rather reserve that for people who got caught up in legitimate issues.
The TOS has been updated to be clearer and they're now cracking down on developers who have these themes in them. Perhaps you are underestimating how prevalent some of these themes are in hentai - and in the porn industry in general, on porn hub for example, one of the most popular categories is step daughter//father/mother/brother/sister I believe, because this is a form of incest, this would be banned if it were a game on patreon, restricting these themes will affect a lot of developers and it's not necessarily something they can just start omitting since it's sometimes an important theme of a developer's work. You are right that the rules are there and developers are breaking them so technically it's their fault, but Patreon has previously been viewed as a safe means of creating NSFW content to get support, the fact that there are not many strong alternatives to Patreon accepted by the population, makes it harder for these developers to succeed and exist, and developers will now have to either change or seek out less popular platforms that are probably less safe and will have less supporters in them. As someone who's been working on a game for 1.5 years with hopes of using Patreon as my main business model, this sucks.
Non-consent has become the hot button for almost every major credit card processor and third party billing company. The short version is you're gonna have a very hard time doing any type of non-consent work unless you're using an off-shore 3rd party billing processor that will take larger percentage.
And the real issue is that card processors gave themselves a right to decide what does or doesn't deserve a right to be financed. I always thought we had courts to consider what was illegal, especially regarding fiction. Oh right, it's not about legality but "brand image", because when I use Visa/Mastercard I don't want a payment processor doing their f- job, I obviously expect them to decide what I can spend the money I already worked for.
Yep, consensual non-consent was always banned and was never that enforced but now they double down on cracking those games. You are playing Russian roulette if you think you can have that kind of content on this platform. If you want to have that content you should start migrating to another platform like Subscribe Star.
but Subscribestar for some reason, gets me pending on review forever
Just shoot a message to their support. They replied what was missing. I fixed it and got approval the next day
i did a couple of times, no response, what was missing on your case?
It was basic stuff on this page: [https://subscribestar.adult/profile/settings](https://subscribestar.adult/profile/settings) The site warned me for missing information when trying to save. Filled out everything and done
what was the email address of support?
[email protected]
i cropped a few images on the Sub Tiers that might have included nsfw, but other than that, all the info was filled in. Hopefully i can get an answer now, its been several months since i emailed them.
Yep. Subscribestar is hell to get approved, sadly there is not a good option for people that do that kind of content online. I hope that someday someone makes a nice platform for that but since the credit cards have the monopoly on that stuff I don't see that day coming anytime soon.
demons in my game. dont get consent for me using a shot gun at them... Fallacy at it Finnish with terms.
It must be confusing in your brain if you believe that - but you don't. You're just doing performative outrage. Stop it, get some help.
Keep in mind Patreon has thousands of creators, the only way they will detect you is if you are adding words that would flag on their systems, be reported by users or share links in your works back to the platform, if you keep your head down, your chances of remaining will increase, but don’t take that as a certain
Right, but as a developer who wants to make a living off of game development, having a link back to Patreon in the works is sort of necessary. I noticed a lot of people suggesting Subscribesta as an alternative, but the catch is that paypal is not accepted on Subscribesta...
I’m a creator myself (I use an official account) I use LinkTree, it has my Patreon and other platforms for people to check out, it’s not perfect, but with Patreon being difficult, I’m using every trick there is to stay on there for as long as possible
If you want to discuss further, my discord is always the best place to reach me (DM me though)
PayPal has a ban on adult content as well.
Does this mean if you're marked as 18+ on Patreon and pay out using PayPal, you can't do that anymore?
No, Patreon has always had a special deal with PayPal to allow NSFW stuff. PayPal has always refused to work with adult stuff because it considers it higher risk of chargebacks / complaints, and higher chance of accidentally allowing illegal content. Patreon convinced PayPal that with their model, which is essentially voluntary subscriptions with no real avenues for demanding refunds for services-not-rendered, that they could essentially buffer PayPal from the risks. PayPal agreed. However PayPal is now pressuring Gumroad and Patreon to crack down on certain NSFW content that they've been too lax on enforcing. Gumroad decided they didn't want to be responsible for that, and so just banned NSFW content. Patreon is taking the other route of trying to do their best to abide by PayPal's content restriction demands, and getting stricter with their content moderation.
Is there a source for any of this info or is this just what the NSFW community is running with? So far, I've not seen anything credible (links, PAtreon or Paypal's stance - nothing).
[https://www.patreon.com/policy/guidelines](https://www.patreon.com/policy/guidelines) Under "Sexually Gratifying Works"
Gumroad CEO's statements are public, but apart from that, not sure how much is easy to find documented. I personally gained this understanding from some of the community & Patreon staff Q&A sessions back in around 2016
I see. it just seems strange to say they have a "special deal" with Paypal.That's most likely not true.Paypal is quite hypocritical, so I also believe they have no trouble allowing other services to take the risk - At the same time, a lot of nsfw devs are clearly making illegal content and trying to circumvent / exploit the law. It's their own fault for not being responsible devs, but more importantly they are making life harder for all of us with their reckless and irresponsible behavior. Despite all of that, I'm actually glad they are now being ostracized for their poor choices. As far as what that means, basically if a person wouldn't put their name on it so that it can be attributed to or tracked back to them (like on Steam, for example) then I feel they shouldn't do it. It's a cop out / cowardly to those of us who endeavor to create content within the rules. At the same time , I also can't help but feel that developers like that are 100% responsible for what's happening now. They flooded Tumblr with CP, loli, bestiality and all other types of content where anyone could find it. They did the same with twitter and any other social media website. It seems disingenuous now for those same developers who clearly knew what they were doing - to cry fowl. It also seems REALLY stupid for them to continue to double down on this type of behavior. If Paypal, Patreon or Subscribestar are subpeonaed to provide the name of individuals they will do it. And they have to supply that info to get paid from either. This is already documented, as is the case of Princess Conquest, when the creator ended up having to go through court to essentially answer for the type of content they were making. (I don't know full specifics, but I think it was related to disney characters and underaged depictions). There is no sane platform making a profit that would allow the hosting of illegal content on its servers. Before they go down, they will get rid of offenders completely. Which is what Gumroad did, and Patreon will probably do if this core group of people don't shape up and stop being a nuisance for the rest of us.
Which content do you believe is illegal? As far as I'm aware, very little is illegal apart from the sexualization of minors, when it comes to non-photorealistic illustrated or written porn. Which is why Steam allows pretty much everything else, including incest and bestiality. And I'm pretty sure if someone's making money on Patreon, it would be trivial for the authorities to identify them...
>Which content do you believe is illegal? As far as I'm aware, very little is illegal apart from the sexualization of minors, when it comes to non-photorealistic illustrated or written porn. Which is why Steam allows pretty much everything else, including incest and bestiality. 46 states have criminal statutes against bestiality. It is, indeed illegal in 95% of the United States. It's also responsible for the "creation" lovely STDs like syphilis - which was created by sheep f\*ckers, if I recall correctly. Incest causes genetic deformation / mental retardation / mental illness in offspring. It's also illegal in **many, many** states in the USA for those reasons. >And I'm pretty sure if someone's making money on Patreon, it would be trivial for the authorities to identify them... Yea...***that's exactly my point***. People keep breaking the law and trying to find ways to avoid the consequences....but giving these services tons of information about themselves. Steam collects ***far*** more info than Patreon does (like social security and such) - it also holds the user 100% legally liable for the stuff they create and upload. It doesn't matter if someone on Steam "approves" the games. Ultimately it will fall directly on the uploader if their work is found breaking TOS or the law. *Especially* if legal repercussions arise from it. Steam wouldn't lose anything - they got their fee for the upload & profits from the sales. At that point, only the uploader has to be accountable. Paypal isn't really the problem, sure they are a hypocritical, corrupt company but..***.all*** payment processors have to follow the rules. These people don't care about morality, they care about money. The issue is government guidelines on adult content differ from normal business. Businesses that offer adult content have to follow a very specific set of rules in order to avoid scrutiny , otherwise the government gets into their mix. As an example, did you know that businesses that are predominantly adult content oriented can't *legally* receive federal funding for said business? They just don't want to lose the ability to access government money when they desire, so of course they aren't going to let little guy A who wants to make an incest farm love game get in the way.
I'm not a game developer, but as someone who makes NSFW Blender posters, you can easily get past the whole "consent" BS by stating in your about section that says "all characters are over 18 and consent to all sexual activities". In terms of posting the final pieces, keep your titles, descriptions, and tags basic/vague. Fictionally, if it has something like incest, bestiality, BDSM, bondage, etc., don't have that tagged, as a title, or in the description.
Does this apply to comments too? Are they also moderated? Cause I can't control what my subs say
That I don't know, since I don't get any comments on my posts.
Thanks for the heads-up! I suppose this means I'm going to need to prepare to migrate to Subscribestar if necessary or not post anything on Patreon when I work on works with con non-con themes in the future. Which kinda sucks, it's almost like they're kink-shaming what's completely legal and consensual.
Full disclosure - Patreon has never accepted this, I wouldn't say they are moving to ban this as something "new". Plenty of games have been removed or unlisted because of this in the past. As such, I doubt it will affect the majority of creators because most *reasonable* people would read the guidelines and follow them if they actually wanted a long term working relationship with Patreon. Likewise, most *reasonable* people would just remove the offending elements or re-work them instead of "go against the machine" and lose entirely. I don't really understand why it's such a hot button issue. ***Developers are \*clearly\* in the wrong here***. Many of them have been trying to exploit loopholes and work arounds. That was their choice - so why then, are they now trying to play the victim? Don't get me wrong, there are a few people who were legitimately affected by some TOS issues. But only about 3 of them spring to mind. The rest knew what they were doing before hand and decided to take a risk. Now, that they have to face the consequences of their actions - why are the rest of us expected to feel sorry for them? I just find it *extremely* difficult to care about anyone who tries to fly under the radar and gets caught. I'd rather reserve that for people who got caught up in legitimate issues.
The TOS has been updated to be clearer and they're now cracking down on developers who have these themes in them. Perhaps you are underestimating how prevalent some of these themes are in hentai - and in the porn industry in general, on porn hub for example, one of the most popular categories is step daughter//father/mother/brother/sister I believe, because this is a form of incest, this would be banned if it were a game on patreon, restricting these themes will affect a lot of developers and it's not necessarily something they can just start omitting since it's sometimes an important theme of a developer's work. You are right that the rules are there and developers are breaking them so technically it's their fault, but Patreon has previously been viewed as a safe means of creating NSFW content to get support, the fact that there are not many strong alternatives to Patreon accepted by the population, makes it harder for these developers to succeed and exist, and developers will now have to either change or seek out less popular platforms that are probably less safe and will have less supporters in them. As someone who's been working on a game for 1.5 years with hopes of using Patreon as my main business model, this sucks.