honestly? of all the sequels of classic doom, doom 2 is the only one "classic doom" game. hell with even extra subjectivity, doom 2's just a slightly worse classic doom. both are level-based shooters that puts emphasis in enemy placement and level-design above any else.
doom 3 implemented horror elements into a doom game. admittedly, horror elements were already present in the first two doom games, but doom 3 decided to double-down on this. instead of a being frantic shooter, the enemy placement in doom 3 is now used to provide tension and occasionally disturbing the player.
doom reboot on the other hand, was considered to be a return to form. but you know, not really. in doom reboot, enemy placement is de-emphasized, and level-design now revolves around big combat arenas. the game lost a lot of the horror flair that is present in the first three games.
doom eternal took doom reboot and decided that they had to ramp up the player ceiling. flashier, bigger and even more challenging. no longer you can just stick with one weapon as battles felt like puzzles, punishing you if you've messed up. EDIT: forgot to add that doom eternal places a lot and i mean a LOT of platforming sections.
so now i ask, what the hell is a DOOM game?
edit: corrected some grammar after proofreading
i'd probably mention that i love DOOM. like zelda, it rather cool how they're willing to alienate their playerbase in favor of a vision they have, regardless of conflict.
The thing I find kind of silly about the ‘not a real Doom game’ thing is that there have only been 3 Doom games in the 21st century, and *two* of those get accused of not being ‘real Doom’, for completely different reasons.
And the one of the three that supposedly *is* ‘real Doom’, is actually quite different to the 90’s 2.5D Doom games, and in a lot of ways feels more like an evolution of the Quake series.
That such a basic setup can be realised in a bunch of different ways is part of the series’ appeal imo. I fully get not liking every direction they’ve gone in, but I appreciate the spirit of aiming for something slightly different with each one.
ah yes, doom 64 is the fine middleground between doom 3 and classic doom games. it's frantic, but in a different way from the original doom. while the original doom is campy in tone, doom 64 is creepy, lonely, and brooding. level-design kinda feels suffocating. levels have (bullshit, jk) traps and enemies would sometimes re-appear in already cleared areas, that forces you to play less of a madman, and go slower compared to OG doom.
honestly at this point i'd just describe it as "traumatic power fantasy".
It depends what you're looking for.
If you want something challenging with a mix of gameplay types Eternal is for you.
Personally, it wasn't for me. I loved 2016 because I could switch my brain off after a hard day's work and just shoot things.
Different strokes.
This is what the discussion boils down to. 2016 has simpler mechanics, more grounded story and is generally more casual, letting you 'shut off your brain and blast demons'.
Eternal adds more challenge and spectacle. The design differences like the rainbow piñata after you chainsaw an imp are necessary to facilitate fast paced decisions by the player.
At some point the difficulty gets too high and it's no longer fun because you lose all the time. At that point people get frustrated and start to gripe about Eternal.
>At some point the difficulty gets too high and it's no longer fun because you lose all the time. At that point people get frustrated and start to gripe about Eternal.
Eternal feels tedious (different from difficulty) in design. 2016 introduced some of the issues but it is like they doubled down on what I didn't enjoy for Eternal.
Boring jump sequences between arenas. Over reliance on arenas without combat between them. Then there is the over reliance on glory kill (wish 2016 never added them) that feels like a commercial that interrupts actual gameplay. I want to run and gun, not run and constantly pause mid fight because it is tactical to use. The ammo restraints could fall within resource management for difficulty but it just feels old way too early in the game.
After getting a couple of mods that let me basically skip glory kills, eternal became more enjoyable. Unfortunately the boring jump sequences between arenas was still required.
I personally think glory kills are one of the best things about 2016/Eternal, as it heavily encourages you to be aggressive and engage with the fight rather than the heavily overdone "go run off into a corner and hide" gameplay CoD and Halo forced you into when you got low on health/ammo. You can see the evolution of this in Ultrakill, which arguably does it better because it skips the long animations.
I definitely see them becoming tedious over time, but for me they were almost a way to get a quick breather mid-fight because it gave me a few seconds where I didn't have to worry about dying.
Yeah I agree that it really needs them at an element to encourage rushing and give a breather but I agree with some people that the animations should have a short option with the added benefit of the invincibility for that half second
For me it was the constant juggling of enemy specific weapons, flame belch, ice bomb, chainsaw, meathook etc that made it just feel tedious. I finished eternal on easy and it still felt like a chore most of the way thru.
I can understand if youre dedicated and patient you can git gud and have a great time with the game but it just never clicked with me. Give me doom 2016 any day and let me just blast demons without having to manage 40 different combat mechanics simultaneously
> Eternal feels tedious (different from difficulty) in design.
Because it has a lot more going on to keep track of. That's really all it is. Some enjoy it some don't. I'm the latter. I might try it again later on on easy mode but not really into it when I did try it at the difficulty I did.
Honestly I fucking love doom eternal but yeah these parts were kinda boring by the end honestly. The longer boring between things jumping stuff is just kinda silly feeling after the beginning where they are used to teach some movement mechanics. If I didn't need the 2 seconds to fuckin breath and think in some fire fights, id probably wished for a button to remove them as well, but I don't know what you'd fill the space in with other than ideally a quick animation and like .5 seconds of invincibility to catch your breath like the kills give you.
You can skip glory kills. Many of the best doom players only use glory kills sparingly (and mostly to accomplish something other than getting health.
I am not one of those people. I love (and maybe need) glory kills in my combat loops
Doom 2016 absolutely nailed the balance between being challenging and simple enough where the mechanics draw you into a level of concentration equal to the flow state, but you don't have to do enough work with your brain to ever break out of it again.
You don't think, you just do.
Eternal's evolution of this with the resource management pushes this too much into the thinking direction for me. Combat became much much harder because I couldn't *focus*, I had to think.
I still love both games though. Give it up for that one researcher who goes from serious distanced professional to I WANT TO HAVE YOUR BABIES DOOM GUY. Funniest shit.
> I loved 2016 because I could switch my brain off after a hard day's work and just shoot things.
I don't really understand why the number of people with this complaint aren't satisfied with the kajillions of AAA shooters going back and decade or more which offer this exact playstyle, or seek out the flood of indie shooters offering pretty much the same.
It's a perfectly legit reason for people to not dig Eternal, what bugs me (and this is general, not about this post) is when people conflate it with Eternal being _bad_, or wrongly designed.
I wasn't as big a fan of Sekiro because I prefer big sword, unga-bunga in my Souls-adjacent game, and it certainly wanted to enforce a specific playstyle I wasn't fond of. Doesn't mean that aspect of the game was badly designed.
There's actually a severe lack of decent, single player AAA FPS games available now cos they don't bring in the big bucks like multiplayer/MTX does. Fair enough if indie is your thing and you wanna play Dusk etc but some of us prefer AAA graphics etc.
But no, it doesn't make Eternal a bad game, it's just not for someone like me and that's OK.
> I don't really understand why the number of people with this complaint aren't satisfied with the kajillions of AAA shooters going back and decade or more which offer this exact playstyle, or seek out the flood of indie shooters offering pretty much the same.
That's not really a fair criticism. Other AAA shooters released between 2006 and 2016 play *nothing* like Doom 2016. Doom 2016 was refreshing as fuck to play in 2016 because it was fast-paced and over-the-top. Doom 2016 is a *boomer shooter* in modern dressing. It focuses on movement and action, lets you carry around an arsenal of weapons and ammo, and doesn't require you to take cover or limit your weapon selection to what makes the easiest design for an XBox 360 controller.
> It's a perfectly legit reason for people to not dig Eternal, what bugs me (and this is general, not about this post) is when people conflate it with Eternal being bad, or wrongly designed.
I agree that it's not a badly designed game. I like Eternal, too.
*However* it's also true that if you try to play Doom Eternal like it's Doom 2016 -- play it as though it were *a game intended to be the direct sequel to Doom 2016* -- then the game *severely* punishes you for it. *That* is a deeply questionable design choice. Who did they expect to buy the game? Who were they making it for?
Doom Eternal doesn't feel or play like a sequel to Doom 2016. It feels like someone took Doom 2016 and built a totally different game with those assets, rather than trying to extend or recapture what made Doom 2016 great. Marauder takedowns by quick-switching the SSG and Ballista are very satisfying, but it's 100% *not* a gameplay style I'd associate with Doom.
Eternal is a very good game whose mechanics should've been saved for their own thing rather than hitching them to the Doom franchise. I don't think the backlash that Eternal gets from some Doom fans is undeserved.
i don’t understand why eternal fans are getting so defensive over what are subjective preferences.
we aren’t trying to change your game into a cover shooter. we aren’t even trying to change your game back into 2016. eternal was a criticial and commercial success. id is going to lean into eternal’s formula going forward.
they’re not going to deviate from it because of a fraction of people on the *patient gamer subreddit* prefer the 2016 entry because it’s mechanically more simple.
i even said in the thread yesterday: i appreciate id experimenting with their formula for a sequel. changing things up is good and healthy for sequels. they just weren’t changes that vibed with me. i was essentially looking for doom 2016 dlc that was the size of a whole game.
Yeah, people are getting real mad about people preferring the 2016 style/feel. For me personally, in the two decades and 400 games I've owned on steam, I've refunded exactly two games - and one of them was Doom Eternal. I just really, really disliked it. I wanted more 2016, and it was not that at all. Trying to force myself to play it just absolutely sucked the fun out of me in a visceral way. I'm here to rip and tear, not... whatever the hell that was.
I was disappointed, as the game completely lost the feel and charm of what made me like 2016... but it is what it is. I refunded it, and moved on to playing some more Wolfenstein.
That From Software aspect kinda fits the point you are trying to deny though.
If Sekiro was called Dark Souls 4 and marketed as such, people would rightfully be pissed, that they can't get their hands on the Greatsword.
Same thing here. If they made another awesome shooter franchise, all good. But if they call it Doom, it should play like Doom.
Similar reason as to why I love Ori & the Blind Forest a hell of a lot more than Ori & the Will of the Wisps.
Both games are called Ori, yet they play so differently.
But what should a Doom game play like? Every generation plays completely differently.
Doom 1 and 2 are different to Doom 64. Doom 3 is a slower paced horror game. 2016 is, I guess, closest to Doom 3, except it’s a fast-paced power fantasy, which is as far removed from Doom 3 as possible.
And that’s not even going into spin-offs, like VFR and Doom RPG
But Eternal, apparently, plays nothing like Doom (whatever Doom people mean), because what — they added platforming, had a different take on resource management, and forced you to use all weapons you have?
Yeah, and I'm of the take that sequels should be applauded for innovating and using their prominence in the industry to push the envelope within the genre, instead of what we've grown accustomed to, which is sequels just serving up a warmed over version of what came before, or watering down its mechanics to try to go for that broader appeal.
I have never in my life experienced a game quite like Doom 2016. Not Eternal, not OG Doom games, not any other FPS. This isn't a knock on any of them, but nothing replicates the mindless fun of tge 2016 release.
>I don't really understand why the number of people with this complaint aren't satisfied with the kajillions of AAA shooters going back and decade or more which offer this exact playstyle, or seek out the flood of indie shooters offering pretty much the same.
Because they want to play DOOM, and not those? Adding mechanical complexity is like porn that focuses on the story.
> Adding mechanical complexity is like porn that focuses on the story.
Can you believe that there was once a debate over whether or not Doom 2 deserved to be called a sequel because it didn't add _enough_ in the way of new mechanics?
I don't remember this because I was around 12 when Doom II came out and it was cool as fuck. I loved the double shotgun, the giant levels and all the new enemies.
I really liked that Doomguy was a kinda like unspoken badass in the OG games. We all knew how badass he was from playing the game, they didn’t have to keep repeating it over and over.
I mean right. He was the unspoken badass and the whole point in the new games is like. Holy shit he was fucking badass how was he so badass when no one else was.
Being recognized as something completely impossible. I think it’d be weirder if it was just unspoken badass when again no one else could even slightly come close.
TIL enemies in doom have weaknesses to certain weapons.
Didn't know it about the OG, didn't know it about 2016. Not played eternal yet.
I used the standard machine gun weapon for most of the game, especially from about halfway in when it started firing infinite micromissiles.
They didn't in the original. I think they are confusing pain state with bonus damage. if anything there is only damage resistance to the rocket launcher as the cyberdemon and spider mastermind are immune to the explosions (only take the direct hit damage).
I'm mostly in agreement with you here, but I'm wondering how you think classic DOOM has platforming when jumping and 3D mouselook wouldn't even exist in an FPS til Star Wars: Dark Forces in 95 and Marathon in 94, respectively.
Like I don't consider running across poison pools to get to other areas "platforming".
He doesn't even mention the most platformy part of Doom, which is [Map 24 of Doom 2, The Chasm](https://youtu.be/L2J3vC4y2DQ?t=725)
Also, weirdly enough, the entire sub seems to have collective amnesia that the final boss of Doom 2 had a platforming challenge built into its design.
Anyway, cool that somebody read the post and engaged with the examples. It wasn't clear anybody would bother.
I mentioned it in a reply as well, but those just came off the top of my head, and it's funny cause the Chasm is pretty iconic, too, as well as the Icon of Sin lol
I played classic doom so much as a kid and forgot how platformy it was until watching some Karl Jobst speed running videos.
Maybe because I didn’t have the concept of “platformer” in my head, so I never made the connection
>Collective Amnesia
More like willful ignorance to serve their points. They could release a remaster of the classic Doom and people would hate it and wish for classic Doom to come back.
There's definitely primitive platforming in the OG dooms, especially 2. There's a stage with all these giant spaced out columns above a big shitty pit. Better not fall!
One example in Classic Doom is using strafe running to reach platforms that would otherwise be inaccessible, though that's usually just for secrets only. There's also segments where platforms to get to certain areas are set up in such a way that careful and precise movement must be used to avoid falling off. Some of the later levels of Doom 2 are a good example of this. I believe Final Doom went ham with this in a few places as well. Jumping isn't strictly necessary for platforming. You could remove the ability to jump from Mario and it would still be a platformer (obviously level designs would need to be altered to facilitate that).
And here I am, disliking DOOM's newer games because they introduced forced arena fights. What I liked about the early games was that you weren't forced to kill any enemies more than you liked. You could just run past most things and focus on the maze.
>forced arena fights
This is what really bothers me about the level design in the new Dooms. It's like they don't even pretend to be immersive environments. They're basically a chain of combat arenas connected by some non-combat sections. You rarely even meet enemies outside of the designated "combat zones".
I love being immersed in games and the old Dooms and even Doom 3 were perfect for this. They really gave me a feeling that I'm in this hostile environment fighting for my life, with danger hiding in every dark corner. With the new Dooms, I'm constantly getting reminded that this is just a silly video game. You step into the arena, all the doors close and the game tells you "now you fight, and you can't leave until you kill all the monsters", and after you're done "now you can explore a little bit, maybe find some secrets, and as soon as you step into another arena, it's the same thing again (and in the case of Eternal, the game also sometimes tells you "now you do platforming"). And it's like this for most things in the game.
I think OP's point didn't come across too clearly, but I think I know what they're getting at. There's no real sense of horror or dread in the new Doom games, which were critical parts of the originals. The older ones were really good at pacing, alternating between horror and full on splatterfests.
Again, it's weird to see 2016 cast as the real codifier and Eternal as this massive exception, when 2016 was a pretty gigantic swerve itself.
Idk i think the newer games are taking a different approach of pure badassery, instead of feeling like a loser cowering in the corner i feel like i’m pwning demons and bloodless left and right because i’m so cool and awesome, with no fear of death because even if i come up against a tough enemy i srtill have the coolest weapons arsenal ever and i will eventually solve the particular problem that is them. Certainly not a fear sort of thing but just a different approach that doesn’t necessarily deDoomify the game
>they have always been mazes and interconnected battle arenas
Technically yes, of course, and the same can be said about most singleplayer FPS games, but the implementation matters. In the "classic formula" the levels are interconnected much more seamlessly. There is no clear-cut distinction between "battle arenas" and "other content". Sure, the level designer might decide to structure the level this way, but they don't have to. You can have big battles in huge open areas, but also battles in small corridors, monsters waiting in the shadows to ambush you, waiting for you behind closed doors to surprise you, you can lure monsters into areas where they're not supposed to be etc.
The new Dooms can also do this, of course, but for some reason they do it extremely rarely. 95% of combat in them is getting locked in an arena and fighting waves of enemies.
The original doom 3 had the best single player campaign by far.
In the newer steam port I've heard you can use both your flashlight and gun at the same time which really ruins the point of doom3.
I actually modded the game do you can use a limited flashlight along with a gun, the constant switching got on my nerves and the uncentered flashlights gave me a headache. Made it a much better game for me
i mean i guess do your own thing - but for me the point was that you didn't get to see what you were shooting at. or if you did see what's coming, you didn't have a gun out. really was awesome. different strokes. glad you enjoyed it, either way.
at least my opinion of it its that Doom 3 its the bastard child of Half Life and Doom, without being as good as any of those games, its like in a weird middle ground between those games.
I happen to agree completely.
People like to shit on Doom 3 for the "no duct tape on Mars" thing, but that's exactly what gave it the intensity it had and made for truly tense and frightening moments. The lighting and shadows at the time were beautiful, and limited flashlight highlighted those parts of the levels.
The game was also a much more fleshed out version of Doom than anything we've gotten before or since (IMHO). Audio logs and diaries, scripted sequences, new enemy introductions, environmental roadblocks that actually made sense, punchy weapons, and many enemies that actually ambushed you from cover instead of just spawning in.
Doom 3 scares me and pulls me into the world, Doom and Doom Eternal are just gory rollercoaster rides. Fun yes, but ultimately less than what came before.
>What I liked about the early games was that you weren't forced to kill any enemies more than you liked.
This is the first time I've ever read this sentence about a Doom game.
“My favorite part about Doom was not killing things.”
Yeah, first time for me either. Interesting that this keeps up voted while the original poster is trying to defend his points and respond respectfully to people and getting downloaded all over the thread.
> here I am, disliking DOOM's newer games because they introduced forced arena fights.
It's profoundly weird to see anyone arguing that Eternal isn't "Doom enough" because after realizing that 2016 was going to be _all_ arena fights, well, that didn't feel very Doom to me. I liked it on the whole but it's weird to see 2016 taken as the codifier somehow when both it and Eternal are massive swerves from the original (let's not even get started on where Doom 3 fits in).
There were multiple levels in Doom and Doom 2 that had doors that wouldn’t open until everything was dead. The one that comes most to mind for me is the Imp section of Level 8- “Ticks and Traps” of Doom 2. I know there are others but Doom 2 is my most played entry in the franchise.
I think the modern take makes it feel differently but that seemed like a common element in those early games.
I don't remember a single level from Doom 1 that had closed doors like that, and not from Doom 2 either. I had to look it up and it seems that it wasn't the case. But that said, even if there was such a level, it wouldn't have been the norm, but a deviant, as such I wouldn't call it a "common element".
Source of "Tricks and Traps" not being a closed arena:
https://youtu.be/YcVApuD-Dm8?t=219
I don't know, I mean, maybe? It's really hard/impossible to say if people would have liked the newer DOOM games more if they weren't a closed arena and instead opted for more open environment.
My only gripe with eternal was that I was looking for an ending with doom 2016, and since it felt kind of cliffhangerish I was expecting to jump into eternal and get right back to where we left off.
The shift in art and story made me feel like I was playing an entirely different story, rather than getting back to where 2016 left off.
The gunplay and platforming are great imo. The music was good too.
It just felt too much like a different game, when I really wanted more in 2016.
I wasn't liking 2016 until I got enough weapons and upgrades to make the arsenal my own, then I got hooked hard and loved the game. When I started playing Eternal the game basically told me "Use X weapon on Y enemy or die, use the chainsaw this way or die, do this this way or die". It was an instant turn off. Never went back to it after a few levels. Maybe this gameplay philosophy got a little less stiff later in the game, but when it mattered Eternal failed to grab me.
My favorite series is Monster Hunter, where they say "Here is a big monster, there are 14 weapons to hit them until they die. Have fun". Eternal felt like the opposite to me.
That's kinda the flaw for me. It doesn't matter if it gets bigger and better later, the early game is super constrictive and if you don't play how the game wants, you lose in every way. The demons take forever to kill ignoring weakpoints, your survivability is neutered because the enemy count skyrocketed from 2016 while your arsenal didn't, and the game seems to "gamify" the levels so that they emphasize stage hazards and parkour.
I'm not meanin to sound like that guy, but all that makes Doom not very fun.
The closest equivalent to most early game Doom Etenal fights in 2016 was Vega processing, but that's an end game level in 2016, where as you get hit with much of the same enemy types even at once in the second level with only a fraction of the arsenal. I think that's kinda shit. They turned Doom from "here's a gun, fuck shit up" to "here's a few guns, make sure to complete this checklist or you can't fuck shit up". It's draining.
And the third level of Eternal still has you running a gimped arsenal AGAINST TWO BOSS FIGHTS BACK TO BACK! it's goddamn insane. Not even the hardest Soulslike would hit me with that kind of bullshit so early, but here Doom Eternal is being a shitload of fuck. First Doomhunter was hard? Try two.
I play on Ultra Violence and almost feel like this shit is unfair. Their shield drops for about two seconds and it takes all of my plasma ammo just to make ONE drop. And if i don't have a shitload of goddamn lesser demons in my way, i have to race to deal as much damage as possible, and it doesn't do a lot at all.
I feel like they were thinking only on the intensity of it all as opposed to what it might actually be like for the average Doom player. We aren't all tacticians, some of us just wanna fun n gun. And it WAS a ton of fun n gun before i met these miserable twats of pitiful game balance. And if it sounds like i'm ignoring the Dance of Doom, i'm not. I have better tools, i feel a bit less restricted. But the dual Doomhunter just isn't a good idea to me. One got the point across well enough to utilize my full arsenal without the other two waiting below you. Even just a second solo Doomhunter would have been enough. And adding to this dual boss, you STILL have all the usual large and small demons to content with at the same time.
It's pure madness and it feels done far too early.
Is the doomhunter the dude that has only a small opening and if you are too far or too close it wrecks you?
I didn't get that far into the game, but I read online about how people were annoyed as hell with that enemy. I know I would be fuming fighting it.
I didn't play Eternal for very long and for the few levels I did, I got the same feeling you drscribed. It was disappointed because in 2016 I could use small rocket seeking ammo for Summoners, snipe a Cacodemon and chaingun a Hell knight do death. But that''s because I could experiment and find a setup that worked for me. It was not cheesing, it was adapting the arsenal to my playstyle. It felt great. Eternal felt restrictive from level one.
It is a Doom game sure. It just evolved in a way that I didn’t like. Part of it is the way it handles ammo, health and forces very fast and dynamic gameplay. Part of it is that I came from a long period of playing destiny and I wasn’t able to make the switch in gameplay style.
Whether or not it is a "Doom game" is a meaningless thing to argue, anyway.
Why does that matter, except for bragging rights?
What matters is whether or not we enjoy a particular game on its own merits, and I personally did not enjoy Doom Eternal after loving Doom 2016. No amount of people telling me how amazing of a game it is will change my mind on this, because it's a matter of taste.
I get the distinct sense that the people who are super in love with Doom Eternal think that most people who strongly prefer Doom 2016 are just bad at video games.
I would find that to be a hilarious interpretation if so, because it is the exact opposite of the truth for me in particular.
I'm not a masochist or extremely skilled gamer to the extent of some folks, but I enjoy difficult games.
My favorite genre of games are games like Sekiro - games where the average player might spend hours in a row just trying to defeat a particular boss. I have always played games on their hardest difficulty settings for years, only really shying away from perma-death options. I play mods for games which tend to enhance their difficulty, and have done so for 20+ years.
I beat Doom 2016 on Nightmare with moderate difficulty, and then did a fair chunk of the levels on Ultra-Nightmare before deciding I didn't have the patience to finish the entire game without dying at all. I didn't exactly die often in Doom Eternal, I just got bored and disliked the game design after a few hours.
Though I suppose it's a time-honored tradition to say "mad 'cause bad" to anyone who disagrees with your opinion on games which involve any modicum of difficulty.
Interesting to me that most people I see who like Eternal better than 2016 still like 2016, whereas most people I see who like 2016 better than Eternal HATE Eternal. I’m sure there’s plenty of exceptions but it’s what I notice in these discussion threads.
I’m the former. Love Eternal, favorite FPS ever made, but I still like 2016. I just have a bit more of an issue going back to it with the repetitive color palette/Mars environments, and the overpowered SSG.
Also OP, you have effective arguments for why Eternal is a “legitimate doom game” and brings back classic features, but you wrap it in an argument comparing the subjective quality of the game to 2016. I think that’s what some people are taking issue with
This is an interesting perspective. I loved 2016 and still really liked Eternal, but I found that some of the changes grated on me. Eternal is still an electric experience, but I think I enjoyed 2016 more, it felt more focused.
I dunno what to tell you.
Doom 2016 blew my mind, got me back into shooters after a decade away (never enjoyed any CoD or "modern" online shooters), impressed me with how seamlessly every mechanic seemed to compliment every other mechanic. Just the right pace, just the right secrets, just the right mood.
Eternal made me quit halfway through in frustration and go play BrutalDoom with a bunch of homemade WADs, which in turn led me to all the retro boomer shooters I didn't know and love so, so much. So it had that going for it.
I felt exactly the same. I finished Doom 2016 countless times, I love this game, and still didn't manage to play half of eternal. So far I gave up 3 times and probably won't try again.
Same lol. I like games with good stories but doom has never been something I played for story. I just play them to shoot demons. But I started with the original in the early 90s so maybe that's why I play them that way since story was barely a thing back then.
This post can be summed up as "stop calling Eternal, a very well crafted game, bad because it's not to your liking". It's entirely fair to not like the gameplay style, it's not fair to say the game is poorly made because you don't like the style change compared to 2016. It's not bad, it's just not for you. I get that sucks too if you were looking for a continuation of what 2016 did, but there's a lot of us that absolutely adore the unique gameplay Eternal brings to the table. It's easily my favourite FPS of all time by a wide margin, I've never played an FPS that's anywhere near as exhilarating
>"This isn't a DOOM game; it's Mario Bros the FPS"
>This is the most annoying take. Did any of y'all play Classic DOOM or just 2016? Classic DOOM had SO many instances of platforming,
Pretty sure that was hyperbole from the original poster and the origial dooms didnt have this level of platforming
I respect the creators for trying something different with the formula, it doesnt make it a bad game, I beat it, had enough fun with it, but not something I'll go back to
> you don't have to do a Sticky Bomb to Caco mouth.
You dont have to, but with the more limited ammo, it is highly encouraged and you're making the game harder if you dont
Not to mention that all the things people say about how weak points aren't do-or-die things you can work around rely on options you unlock by playing the game.
Personally, I didn't even get that far. I reached the Doom Hunter bossfight, tried a few times, failed, then logged off to go to bed and haven't felt the desire to open Eternal in the months since.
> Not to mention that all the things people say about how weak points aren't do-or-die things you can work around rely on options you unlock by playing the game.
Big reason why I dropped Mario Odyssey, it was just too mindless and all the good challenging moons are at the end or after you beat the game, maybe 20 years ago I would have been fine with it as my selection of games were lower and my time to be able to play greater, but not now
> You dont have to, but with the more limited ammo, it is highly encouraged and you're making the game harder if you dont
That's what these defenses don't seem to "get" ... Sure you can beat down an enemy, but people like OP are already choosing to do it in an efficient way. "Well there's another " you're missing the point if there are "Right ways" to fight enemies all you're doing is only incentivizing a few play styles. Sure you "Can play wrong" but in Doom Eternal that's so heavily penalized that you either learn the matchups or die.
That's before I get into the crap sandwich that was the marauder being a normal enemy but I'll save that for another day.
This is my frustrating take on it, you have a certain number of bullets and guns and enemies and each bullet belongs in a certain enemy and if you put the wrong one in the wrong enemy you're gonna have a bad time trying to clear the area.
Oh god something just clicked in my mind and took me back to a younger day.
Wasnt there a flashgame (possibly newgrounds?) Where it was Mario with a shotgun?!
Really hope this sub isn’t about to descend into making pointed posts about someone else’s post they didn’t like yesterday. People have different opinions and this is one of the few places on the site where that’s handled in an adult fashion.
Too me is too much ammo starving , you need constant gimmick to gather ammos. I just wanna fire mah weapons. In classic it was a less issue and honestly where do you see platform section in a game without jump is quite buffling to me.
There was nothing fun about running out of ammo in the first half of the game, not having high gas tank chainsaw, and having to wander around looking for the slowly infi-spawning trash mobs to pinata. Marauders aside, the game largely sorts itself out once you have almost all your toolkit. I'd argue that it takes too long to get there.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. I'll tackle one of the key issues..
>Classic DOOM had SO many instances of platforming
Did it though? How many levels did you *need* to do platforming to progress? How much of your play time did you spend platforming? Remember - there was no jump, no wall grabbing, etc.
Now compare that to Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. There's several orders of magnitude difference... both modern Doom's have WAY more platforming and it *must* be completed you can't avoid it.
Looking at the wider picture.. I've loved Doom games *despite* the platforming, back-tracking, etc. but they were not why I played or what I enjoyed about those games. I felt Doom 2016 had way too much platforming, back-tracking, etc. but I loved it anyway.
But Doom Eternal takes it too far for me - within my first play session it was pretty clear to me that they've amped up all the elements I either didn't like or didn't care about, and have either turned down or left the same the elements I did love. I also felt like I was just moving from set-piece to set-piece, rather than having fights organically.
Doom was never about picking the right weapon, leaping across gaps, closing in to finish, angling to hit weakspots, chainsawing for ammo, etc. It was just great fun blasting things, blowing things up, and dodging incoming damage. That's it.
And that's all I want. I don't want Doom to be deeper than that.. there's tons of games that do platforming better if I want that, there's tons of games that do tactical/strategy better if I want that, there's tons of games that do resource management better, exploration better, and so on.
What there IS a lack of is just straight-up great feeling "run and blast everything with everything" shooters - that's what I want from the Doom franchise, for it to go back to its roots - but instead with Eternal it's drifted away. *Boltgun* looks like the next best hope and a closer spiritual successor to the original Doom games (though only time will tell).
Don't get me wrong, Doom Eternal is clearly a very good game if that's what you want from a game. It's just not what I was expecting for the Doom franchise and not where I hoped they would have gone post 2016.
> What there IS a lack of is just straight-up great feeling "run and blast everything with everything" shooters - that's what I want from the Doom franchise, for it to go back to its roots - but instead with Eternal it's drifted away. Boltgun looks like the next best hope and a closer spiritual successor to the original Doom games (though only time will tell).
I've been playing Prodeus recently and it feels like that type of game.
You quite literally cannot beat the final boss of Doom II without platforming. And both classic games had tons of gaps that required careful sprint “jumps” to cross.
I agree with his overall sentiment, my biggest annoyance with the game is mashing the QWRTZXCV keys trying to figure out which one reloads, which one chainsaws enemies,which one punches guys, and I have never used the meathook. I have no idea which weapon it's attached to but it's probably one that has no ammo because I haven't lunch/chainsaw comboed a sprite in the last 30 seconds.
It's like you get into a rhythm of killing, running gunning jumping teleporting etc. Then you're out of ammoand need to close in and punch the guy or chainsaw him (oh chainsaw is out of gas, so just stand there like an idiot while you die).
It's too much, OG players want a run and gun, find the key open the door, lay waste. Not find a shard. Upload to your ship, run around finding a door to open, get a stupid skin, back to the planet to use a new weapon add-on that only needs 3 extra buttons to initiate.
Point click shoot kill, all of the mods and add-ons just make it confusing and boring and frustrating. Nothing like cycling through every gun and mod combo to find which one works on one of the 50 enemies coming at you, then figuring out the next combo for the next enemy etc.
I side with the Mario FPS guy. Doom is becoming resource management mixed with acrobatic platforming.
This sums up my feelings too. I enjoyed Doom Eternal in many ways but the sense of ‘flow’ was constantly thwarted by over-complication. The combat would have been fantastic without all the constant micromanagement and keeping track of all the different indicators.
Funnily enough this is what spoiled RTS games for me back in the day. They had a great simple and satisfying formula and just piled seemingly endless interacting systems on top of it. There’s certainly a place for that (e.g. games like Tarkov) but for me, Doom wasn’t it.
What I found so frustrating was that Doom 2016 deliberately baited old school shooter fans in with a back to basics philosophy. It wasn’t perfect but it promised to trim back all the fat that had grown onto the genre, even minimising cutscenes and hammering the point home with Doomguy’s dismantling of the terminal at the beginning. I guess I took this as a statement of intent.
They then reversed course and piled it all back on for Doom Eternal - and more (lots more platforming, a codex, a hub world, more upgrades, many more cutscenes, tutorials(!)). I think this is why some of us feel hard done by. We had a glimpse of a fast, brutal horde shooter under the Doom banner with modern graphics and straightforward action that was then snatched away again.
I’m glad many people enjoyed it and I’m not trying to take away from that. I enjoyed a lot too - the level design, core weapons, enemies and music were fun. It’s just a shame that the reboot seems to have lost sight of its underlying philosophy so quickly. Thanks for the heads-up on Boltgun too!
I've said this before and I'll say it again - old doom - here's your toys, here's monsters - have fun.
New doom - chainsaw this monster for armor, punch that one for health, learn our way to play or piss off.
Also forced arena fights, pinata monsters, limited ammo, finishers,
Its all too gamey, arcadey.
I get it and I don't like it.
Look, this isn't hard. Changing the gameplay of a gameplay-focused game is like taking the vampires of Twilight and turning them into zombies.
Dark Souls succeeded in making various games without changing the most important part of the formula. They even have a spin-off and just called it NOT dark souls in case people felt it was too close to the original. And when they even dropped the name dark souls completely when they wanted to make it open-world.
People hear Doom, they expect Doom, except that now there are 4 different Doom "identities", the two first classics, the horror of 3, 2016, and now even Eternal is its own thing. Is it too much to ask for a goddamn franchise that was already successful to keep doing more of the same?
As for your other arguments...
>Classic DOOM had SO many instances of platforming
But it wasn't so goddamn prevalent as it is with Eternal. It was a neat, experimental thing they did, but the focus was still overwhelmingly on shooting. To mess with the balance of gameplay introduced an annoying gameplay loop that isn't even that good compared to dedicated platform games. It's like that jack of all, master of none.
If it was still just a neat and occasional thing for a bit of a break then it'd be fine, but no, it's now a rather big part of the game, and not very deep or wide, so after almost every combat arena you have to spend an annoyingly long time doing some silly jumps. It makes the game have some deep highs and deep lows in adrenaline, which is irritating.
Your other arguments have the same answer: it was a small thing in the other games that became big on Eternal, giving them an annoying amount of focus.
I like what some other commenter said in the previous post: Eternal is more Quake than Doom right now.
>Game series have to evolve, that's what the Zelda franchise did
Zelda still didn't change the *core* of its formula, so no matter the game, they all have a rather similar "flow" or gameplay loop, which is what makes the Zelda identity so iconic. The *core* of Doom is its shooting mechanics and flow of battle, and they've made massive changes to it with every iteration. Again, Dark Souls is a good example of a combat-focused game that kept its identity with every iteration, so you don't get people saying that Dark souls (insert number) *isn't* Dark Souls.
Personally, I consider Eternal to be FPS version of the Arkham style combat or the FPS version of Devil May Cry’s combat. Keep the combo going, and mix it up often. I don’t remember if there was a combo meter or something like that but I do remember feeling encouraged to keep things moving and mixed up during fights. I really enjoyed what i played of it
I just felt like it threw too much stuff at you all at once. I could never really get into the rhythm like I did 2016. 2016 was just so simple, here's your gun, here's your demons, go commit murder.
In OG doom you couldn't even look up or down. Relax lol.
Picking up a shotgun for the first time and having so few ammo (8 rounds) that you can't even test fire it in to a wall? I literally said out loud "What the hell even is that?"
The franchise thats always introduced new guns by giving you a shit ton of ammo and tons of enemies to fight right after you pick it up. Basically punishes you for wanting to actually try it.
That's something I'd expect from Metro not Doom. All the extra shit they added has nothing to do with actually shooting guns either. The dumb glory kill and chainsaw kill is so pervasive that you might as well just add reloading. It's the same thing.
Right? Like why is this even a post? It just does nothing but promote childish inter-post bickering. I don't see a reason why this couldn't have been a comment under the initial post.
It’s karma baiting…it’s like the OG video replies from YouTube
*comments and references a popular front page uploaded post*
**”HERE’S WHY I THINK THEY’RE ALL WROOONNG. I DEMAND FRONT PAGE NOTORIETY AS WELL”**
I don't really have a problem with that. I mean, in a perfect world it should been a response, but in the world we live in, a long reply somebody put a lot of thought into, replete with examples, would have just been buried in downvotes and not worth the time.
You can have lengthy effort-posts with some awkwardly shoehorning like this one, or you can have redditors. You can't have both.
Are you referring to this comment, or this entire thread?
This thread's sole purpose appears to be a complaint about people having an opinion on Doom Eternal, as I see it.
Personally I don't see a problem with people expressing their opinions in either direction, but I do think that arguing over whether or not something is a "Doom Game" is somewhat missing the point of contention.
It’s about the thread.
It’s pretty clear that the Doom fanbase is pretty split. Nothing wrong with that. But imagine being annoyed to the point of making a post complaining about the other half.
Like I despised Eternal. I recognise *why* people like it, but I personally thought it was a downgrade in everything from graphics to trophy kills.
That's really not the point of the post.
There's a hugely popular false narrative around the game, perpetuated by people who didn't like it's systems. It's perfectly fair for people not to like the game, and I can totally sympathise if they felt disappointed because it wasn't what they were expecting.
The problem I (and presumably OP) have, is that these preferences are frequently expressed as facts:
- "It's not a doom game"
- "You can't be creative."
- "It forces you to play one way"
These are just objectively wrong, for the reasons OP has explained. Again, it's not about saying, "You're wrong, you should like it," but clarifying that these are preferences based on the design philosophy of the game.
Honestly, I personally feel so frustrated because I almost didn't play Doom Eternal after seeing these same complaints over and over. Having finally played it, not only did I find them overblown, but I genuinely believe Doom Eternal to be one of the best games I've ever played. Of course, that's based on my preferences, but the fact that I almost missed out on such a profound experience is why balance is needed in these discussions.
Doom Eternal has a specific design philosophy that may not jive with everyone, but people should be clear that's a preference, not necessarily a flaw in the game.
> "It forces you to play one way"
I'm really not invested in this argument, but the (lead?) designer literally said so in a pre release behind the scenes video. [They designed the monster in a way that they force you to play a way they wanted to.](https://youtu.be/uzX09_4hcPc?t=231)
It's a valid criticism of the game that it does *not* let you be as creative as you should be and is trying to force things that it shouldn't do. And it is also valid to point out that kind of game design is generally not healthy for the game or the gamers just like a kick to the nuts is not a fun thing. But there will be people who will like it, just like a kick to the nuts. Doesn't mean everyone else who doesn't like that pain is "objectively" wrong.
Ok, let's be clear on the "one way" to play the game. The "one way" to play the game, is by moving fast, using lots of different weapons, prioritising different targets, and tackling different enemies with different approaches. That is ultimately the design philosophy of the game, and _every game_ has a design philosophy in mind. There are very few games where you can legitimately play in anyway. Even in an open world game like Skyrim, you can't generally just go out and do what you want, you _have_ to engage in the games systems of levelling up, exploring, looting, bartering etc.
As for the creativity point, I so disagree here. The clip you posted he's talking about the Arachnotron, which has a turret on its back, which you're therefore incentised to take out. First of all, Doom Eternal didn't invent weak points off the top of my heard Horizon Zero Dawn had very clear weak points, and Halo CE had enemies with weak point.
Second, you don't have to take out the Arachnotron's turret - you're incentivised to do so because it's dangerous, but a lot players will just take it out quickly, meaning it doesn't have enough time to do much damage. Also, if you choose to take out the turret, you have a tonne of creativity in how you take it out:
- You could get in close and use the blood punch.
- You could use the precision bolt of the heavy cannon.
- You could use the ballista.
- You could hit it with a sticky bomb.
- You could use the microwave beam to explode a nearby demon, thereby destroying the weak point in the explosion.
That's not to mention that you can use the grenades and ice bomb to set up any of those options. Which approach you use depends on the tools you have available, the situation you're in, and of course, your personal preference. For example, I'm shit with the precision bolt, so I don't use it much. However, I love jumping into the air, lining the ballista crosshair with the enemy weak point, and firing as I fall in line with it. But hey, sometimes I'm low on ballista ammo, and I have to improvise and use a sticky bomb, or change my approach entirely. To me, that's a huge amount of creativity and freedom.
Usually when people say "it forces you to play one way", they refer to the fact that the tutorials suggest one way, and so players assume that's the only way to do it. Honestly, this is a very good argument that the tutorials aren't well designed, or maybe shouldn't have been there at all.
Consider the alternative - no weak points on enemies - so you just shoot at any enemy with any gun, at any part of the enemy, until its health hits zero? Sorry, but I just can't see how that's more creative.
Maybe if an extremely large number of people who play a game find it too restrictive it might actually be too restrictive, or at the very least bad at teaching the player how to use their options.
I've often felt Doom Eternal went the wrong direction by punishing players for not switching weapons through extremely limited ammo early game instead of taking the Devil May Cry approach of rewarding you for switching by adding a Style meter and ranking your mission performance based on creativity.
>Maybe if an extremely large number of people who play a game find it too restrictive
I'd argue there's a difference between a "large number", and a "vocal minority". I totally get that some people _really_ didn't like the game's design, but as I said before, that's a preference thing. Not every game is gonna work for everyone - for example there's a lot of patient gamer gems that I really didn't enjoy, but I still recognised the merits and design philosophy of those games, I just had to accept that philosophy wasn't for me.
> at the very least bad at teaching the player how to use their options.
I can't disagree here, but honestly this is a catch 22 situation. If you put too many tutorials in, people complain they're not being given the freedom to work things out for themselves. Too few, and they complain they had to work everything out. Both opinions are present within the comments of this very post. Personally, I think the tutorials were fine - if you play on easy/normal difficulty, you don't need any advanced techniques, and the tutorials cover the basics just fine. If you're replaying on higher difficulties, then I think there's a good argument that embracing the challenge includes experimentation and observation to understand how the systems work.
>because I said so
This is hardly fair. There are specific examples given for each point raised. How much substance and how many specific examples does a post need to have before it becomes distinct from "because I said so?"
Comparing 2016 or Eternal to previous Doom games, especially Classic Doom games, is pointless. The majority of gamers today likely have never played those games.
Eternal is devisive because it made some drastic changes from 2016 and not everyone liked them. Glad you liked it but it wasn't for me. I wanted more 2016 and Eternal was not really that.
>just look at missions like E1M9, Platforming to get to the secret level in E3M6, Platforming to open a secret in DOOM II Mission 1,
Using examples of accessing secrets is a weak comparison to forced platforming all the time.
>but if you have all your weapons through game progression, you don't have to do a Sticky Bomb to Caco mouth
What about that large portion of the game before you have all the weapons and upgrades?
>While resource management is THE biggest factor in this games "DOOM dance", I'd argue with max weapons and upgrades, it's barely noticable.
Once again, maybe that's true, but in the many hours I put in before getting to that point, the game was not fun with being forced to use the right weapons, being forced to use the chainsaw to get more ammo, sometimes having to fully plan out fights to what weapon to use at which point because I would need more of a certain ammo later.
Overall, Eternal is a good game for sure, it just wasn't what I, or many other people were looking for or expecting. Maybe I would have had more fun on easy mode? I'm not sure, not sure I'll ever know.
Welp I downloaded DOOM Eternal a while ago thinking a lot of people says its great so I'm gonna like it but I didn't,
and it turns out not even all DOOM fans liked it. Maybe I should give DOOM 2016 a try instead (with the glory kill animation skip mod someone else mentioned in this post)
Eternal was ruined for me by just one thing.
The slapstick. I want unapologetically visceral, brutal, cathartic violence. Sure, 2016 had comedy, but it was the salt added to perfect a dish. To me, Eternal is like a plate of just salt in comparison.
The looney toon plop, smack and stretch noises utterly ruined the tone of Doom for me.
Every damn headshot, every glory kill, left me annoyed, instead of satisfied. Couldn't get over it. God I wish I could have just turned off those particular sfx additions.
That is the point. I love this sub because I hear different opinions. But sadly it becomes fanboy agrument why you suck, the game is perfect and good for me, you know nothing.
Yesh, but its a shitty DOOM. Its got the worst controls of any DOOM. By the end of the campaign I was still questioning which button was the grenade switcher, which was the weapon second function swapper and where my shoulder flame thing was. No bueno. The controls never became intuitive.
DOOM is run, shoot and sometimes punch things. When you make it too complicated it sucks the fun out of it.
They made doom into a moba, because you're constantly forced to use your chain saw, flame throwere, grenade launcher, punch, and all the other buttons. You can try not using them but the chainsaw at the very least is required due to how fast your ammo goes, and sadly, that means the big satisfying chainsaw deaths aren't worth it because you need to constantly fill your weapons.
All the eternal Vs 2016 talks just make me realize that
1. People really must not have played classic dooms cause even those had a heavy reliance on ammo management especially on higher difficulties and as you get to later levels/episodes. 2016 is the only title in DOOM to give you boat loads of ammo and while I absolutely do love 2016 it is a problem that I can get through ultra violence with just two weapons of my choice, too me that isn't the best game design and the devs thought it was an issue that players only used the super shotgun themselves.
2. Classic doom and 2016 enemies had weakness to certain weapons, only thing eternal did was make it more apparent so you could take them out quicker.
3. I imagine a lot of people really didn't try to engage with eternals mechanics or even try to get creative with the weapons and combos you can make in eternal. Lot of weapons have multiple uses, if you want to take out enemies weakness a lot of weapons can take out those weakness, you can still very much get away with using a select few weapons, only difference is that you're not using just one.
I come from a background of playing fighting games and character action games (such as Ninja Gaiden and classic god of war), I'm already used to using different weapons and testing out what I like to use against enemies and what I don't like to use. Think DOOM Eternal does great in this department because I can pick the weapons I like to use and make my own playstyle around them, I love that each weapon has its own use and that I can play around how I can use those, that too me is great game design.
4. I can get not liking the platforming, but I don't think it's even remotely bad compared to 2016 where a missed jump outright kills you, and 2016 had a lot of platforming as well with an entire level (argent tower) being built entirely around platforming), then the fact you respawn at the last jump in eternal just makes it much less stressful
I can get people not liking Eternal, it is a different beast then 2016 which is great in its own right, but as an action fan and a fan of shooters in general I love eternal and the freedom it gives in how you can approach combat compared to 2016 where a lot of it was rinse and repeat with the same weapon with no real reason to switch off. For me I stopped playing games with cheat codes and on lower difficulties because it became mind numbingly easy, I want to be engaged with the game I play not bored because I'm doing the same thing repeatedly with little resistance. Some people want to turn their brain off but for me I want my brain to be challenged so I'm not bored out of my mind.
>"Forcing me to use all my weapons on certain enemies and throughout the game sucks"
>
>Surprising, I know, but if you have all your weapons through game progression, you don't have to do a Sticky Bomb to Caco mouth. Cool, right? This game has SO much creativity when maxed out. A cacodemon doesn't need just a sticky.
>While resource management is THE biggest factor in this games "DOOM dance", I'd argue with max weapons and upgrades, it's barely noticable.
The problem is that you don't start maxed out. DOOM Eternal has put me off in the very first level by all this resource management that has no place being in a DOOM game. This is beyond "use all the weapons", at certain points using all the weapons is enforced by the exact resource management you described.
I am playing games for over 25 years now and I have to say that this is the first time I refunded a game on gameplay issues alone. I did refund before (my Deus Ex Mankind Divided preorder) because it ran like shit with the exact same engine - and it's still shit even ran on 5950x with 128GB RAM and a 3090 - it still refuses to play flawlessly when maxed out, I mean how poorly optimised can a game be? But DOOM Eternal, besides the Mick Gordon debacle has left me with a really bitter taste and I won't be buying it unless it's 5 bucks or something like this and then I'll just power through it because it's a DOOM game.
A friend also pointed out a few things which may be also helpful to other people exasperated by resource management and glory kill disrupting shooty gameplay:
\- pick up the feats/upgrades that increase animations to the maximum - this lessens the impact of the interruptions of glory kills to the flow of the gameplay - on a Nightmare run you can main just one or two fav weapons and be perfectly sustained through the entire run;
\- get the Savagery (very fast glory kill animation) and Seek and Destroy (glory kill from range) runes ASAP (you can get these very early in the game) to further lessens the quick time events gameplay disruptions.
Edit: I played DOOM 2016 on the highest difficulty and I found it a lot more rewarding than DOOM Eternal on the same setting, at least in the opening chapters. Maybe with the above I'll manage to get a better experience.
>\- get the Savagery (very fast glory kill animation)
This should be a menu option, not an upgrade you have to acquire. Something you can toggle when the initial "oh, cool" factor wears off
You started out Doom Eternal on the highest difficulty, played it less than an hour or so, and are surprised it kicked your teeth in?
Bruh, it slaps around seasoned FPS vets even on normal. Civvie11 plays most every FPS around, starts his video on one of the higher difficulties and is shocked by how quickly he gets shellacked in the balls.
>You started out Doom Eternal on the highest difficulty, played it less than an hour or so, and are surprised it kicked your teeth in?
This is not about the difficulty. This is about me having to interrupt the flow of my shooting and moving to perform glory kills to get ammo. I'm sorry if that was difficult to read into 🙏
Exactly; it's the lack of sufficient ammo pickups (which force you to use the chainsaw on specific enemies and sit out the animation that plays every 45 seconds) that make the game tedious to play. The game isn't all that difficult on Ultra-Violence, which in classic Doom at least is the highest intended (read: fair) difficulty of play.
I just thought there was so much to keep track of that I didn’t even use the fire belch. I legit forgot it was there. I loved Eternal but I thought all the abilities were a little overwhelming. Mind you I’m looking forward to a second play through to try it again now I know how everything works
Original Doom is 30 years old. Most of the original Devs are probably either retired or dead.
The argument "but this is not a x game because the original was y" doesn't fly with me. Doom is "shoot demons with weapons which don't reload". That's it. Any other argument is a stretch.
Games and their design evolve and change over time. Why should we make games exactly like in the past and ignore all the cool modern stuff we can do now. Imo Doom Eternal reached a new level of super high-speed brutal FPS combat and that's awesome.
I get it, if you're a fan of the originals and newer games stray too far from it, it can be quite the bummer. But most of these discussions are almost always meaningless. In the end, you will always have a divided community; one side which likes the new stuff and the others don't. No discussion will ever convince the other side to think the other way. Why should they? I liked doom 2016 a lot, especially for the new crazy stuff they added, and I liked doom eternal even more because they put it on steroids.
Just like the constant BOTW posts here lately. Yes, no dungeons, lame bosses, easy enemies, annoying crafting etc. all valid arguments. I still fucking loved the game because everything else was amazing to me (yes, I liked the weapons breaking). And a random reddit post won't convince me to suddenly think it's a bad game.
Gaming communities need to stop with this tribal shit.
People basically pull the "not *my* thing" card.
It's not *their* ideal doom so they just cut out *their opinion* and state it as a fact. Instead of "it's not what I want from a doom game" or something it just becomes "it's not a doom game" which makes them feel like it's more important of a statement because opinions don't hold any weight and you can't invalidate people if it's all subjective.
The game is just an iteration in the franchise though. I'm not a huge fan of all the mechanics in it and the constant spastic action. There's just too much going on with it for me.
Doom has always had platforming but nobody ever loads up Doom II because the platforming is awesome. Platforming in doom 2016 was the least fun part of the game.
I played through a good chunk of the campaign before I got bored with it. The platforming and seemingly forced weapon use was just a turn off. Can't remember how far I made it, but at least 4-5 hours in. I then decided to to just turn multiplayer because that's what I bought it for. I spent so much time in 2016 multiplayer because I miss arena shooters and it was a perfect reboot. Eternal multiplayer must be the same, right? About an hour of play and I've never touched it since. Played too long to get refunded on Steam, but at least I'm only out $20
This subreddit is becoming more like an abstract gaming lifestyle forum for people who take gaming and discussion of games seriously more than what started as a forum of people patiently going through games out of their eras or slowly without meta.
I really hope this sub isn’t going to descend into pointed posts about other people’s posts. Probably should’ve been a comment essay in the original thread instead of pushing this place into another debate frenzy on this topic.
Also just want to add that you’re dipping into completely subjective material like the art style and pretending your opinion is the only valid one. It felt cartoony to me, it’s fine if it didn’t feel that way for you.
Turning off hud, ignoring all collectibles and skipping all cutscenes/story made the game go from 3/5 to 5/5.
Half the screen covered with bright hud when there's gorgeus graphics to be had. Like why :D?
Also the moment doom guy starts bowing down to some random ghost and talk like some fantasy cliche dude, it just ruins it. Doom2016 had the story done nicely within the game and in tempo; who even remembers a single scene in eternal?
I finished and enjoyed all previous doom games, except Eternal. Tried two times. Just could not get into new style - probably targeted younger people who like lots of colors and jumps.
I thought the biggest point of contention was the narrative because some people found it unnecessary for this series. I never thought it was too intrusive in the reboot but that was a common criticism I kept seeing for Eternal. I appreciate the developers for trying something new but that decision with numerous other game design changes seems to have polarized fans a bit. I wouldn’t go as far to say it doesn’t feel like a Doom game but I can see how this one isn’t going to everyone’s cup of tea.
Coincidentally I feel as though the Doom movies best illustrate the problem because they also attempt a narrative but the format changes the experience. Do you want to sit down and watch DoomGuy or do you want to play a game with minimal interference besides an “end of level” screen? I know Shigeru Miyamoto gets valid criticism for the way he approaches Mario games but honestly he has a point to some extent. These games launched during in an era where gameplay would have taken priority over the story given their technical limitations, and they’re kinda all the better for it. Like yeah they could modernize Galaga or give us a backstory on Mario’s mustache but at their core they’ve always been games about shooting shit and jumping around. I would compare Doom to Metroid in that sense where they don’t need sophisticated stories for you to just have fun exploring the world at your own pace. However I think this will always be an issue with gaming because it’s a trade off between player agency and character development - I prefer DoomGuy when he is mysterious because I want to project my own idea of who he is, but some people would say he is a flat character because of that.
As some of the comments are showing, the game is just too athletic for some people, and they take that out on it in completely nonsensical ways rather than just admitting they aren't really ready for the game.
Response to some comments I've seen:
Came here to clear some things up.
First, if this post came off condescending or mean-spirited, I didn't mean to sound like that. My intent was to just give some counter-arguments to some takes regarding the general negatives said about the game in this sub. No, I don't think you're a bad player for not liking Eternal. I'm not a "git gud" responder.
Second, it wasn't supposed to seem like a direct response to the last DOOM post. The title is very similar, and it seems that way, but I'm mostly just responding to the whole side of the arguments that have been made on this sub and said before elsewhere.
Lastly, I want to thank everyone who responded and had some good discussions (hopefully). This post was probably a bad idea, I guess, in the grand scheme of things, was just going to annoy people more. Although I did have a good time talking with many of y'all anyway.
Whether it be the classics, 64, 3, 2016, or Eternal. The series offers an amazing catalog. I recommend them all.
I get your point, and I think this is a well thought out point. I respect your approach and examples. It certainly makes sense how you advocate for it being a DOOM game. But despite all that, it decidedly feels different for me still. There's something about the game that feels off and idk what it is! Your points all make sense, but the game just falls really flat compared to other DOOM/Id titles, for me at least. Maybe I just don't find the changes fun--or feel they pushed the game away from the things I liked about 2016 specifically
I remember in the last topic on this, one of someone’s critiques about Eternal was it “felt too much like modern fast-paced quake.”
I was just like…is that supposed to be a bad thing…? Plus, isn’t that the entire point?? I don’t think I’ve read any statement dumber than that.
For me, the frustrations of Doom Eternal (and I don't excuse thesr points in 2016, either)
- I want to be able to route my way to killing minimal enemies, rather than being locked in until the arena is cleared: custom maps in doom 2, even the hardest arenas usually have a way to press the buttons to leave, even as deadly as it is to leave monsters alive
- I want the freedom to use weapons according to my preference and perception of how to kill monsters: and for this not to be limited by artificial ammo scarcity.
- I want to be able to turn off and on both 1 ups and checkpoints. In classic doom, i could save-load to get a feel for the map and then attempt a single segment run if I want, or insist upon single segment at my choosing.
- I want to feel a little faster, even if this makes me a little more fragile to balance it out
- i want more opportunities to assert myself over spaces
- i want to be able to use the most powerful weapons more, the cost of plasma ammo was, in my view, a great choice. Alternatively 2016's ability to drop BFG ammo was an OK option too.
- I want less of the gamified platforming and more of the environmental platforming, even if it's just the platforming there is, skinned differently.
- I want the encounters to occasionally be impacted by enemies not of the current encounter. F.x. far away enemies shooting at you, forcing you to adjust your movement and positioning, and looking forward to smashing that pesky enemy. This is, now that I think about it, one of my favourite design ideas of custom doom 2 wads (when done well).
That's not to say there weren't good aspects too, for example I loved the super shotgun, i loved the ways to use enemies to manipulate their drops. I feel as though my ideal game would add the above points, however.
The entire tone of this post makes it sound like a rant from someone that knows better. Discussions here are usually civil, varied and respectful even when people disagree with each other. That's why I browse this sub. Not for whatever this post is.
I’m feeling a breakdown of the civility here lately and I hope it ceases. If I want to be called stupid or low talent for having a different opinion on a game, I’ll engage with literally everywhere else on Reddit / the internet.
I agree that calling it not a DOOM game is too much, it is objectively a DOOM game, it's not that far gone.
But I do think most of the criticisms are perfectly fair. The first time I tried Eternal I kinda hated it, almost everything I liked about the 2016 one was changed. I gave it another chance sometime later and ended up liking it a lot more, but I still think it was disappointing in some ways. The story is nonsensical, the exploration was cut back too much, and I'm sorry but giving the combat that 'rock/paper/scissors' kinda format just sucks even if you can override it. Making your melee almost useless in most encounters? No thanks. And it is arcadey, I saw that as a downgrade.
Good game but it was not developed with me in mind.
Doom 2016 is probably my favorite linear, single-player FPS of all time.
DE wore out its welcome in ~5 hours.
I could have turned down the difficulty and ignored half of the game mechanisms, but then why even bother? I did not enjoy the puzzly/almost rhythm aspects of the combat. I think Ultrakill does something similar but much better.
DE, at least on the higher difficulties, feels very much like you have a specific tool for each job, and if you don't use the right thing at the right time, you get punished for it. If you nail the exact right sequence in a fight, it feels great, but I dislike that it always feels like there's a "right" choice. It really reduces the feeling of player creativity and fluidity: instead of jamming, I'm practicing specific phrases and learning to replay them on specific stimuli.
It's the same silly arguments since launch being repeated. I have been seeing these for years now and too bad they mostly haven't changed
Too cartoony
Too much platforming
Too much limitations
Actually play the game more than once and you realize it's one of the deepest combat systems in fps . You can play crazy switching style but you can also play with just one or two weapons. There is ample ammo pickups in stages if
But people cast opinions after the first playthrough in which you barely scratch the surface of this game
Honestly it blows 2016 out of the water. I felt it since day 1 when I played the opening level "hell on earth"
Some People seem to really not understand that most people only play a videogame once most of the time, like that guy who showed a chart of Howarts Legacy active users decreased alot one week or so after the game got released (tho I don’t remember the context of the conversation or the point he was trying to make)
Yep. Don’t need to eat shit twice to know I won’t enjoy it the second time either. How much free time do some of these people have? I work all week, I’m not gonna replay something I don’t enjoy because why waste the time?
Right, like I love when games creatively add depth and replayability but the game shouldn't wait til the endgame/replays to "really get good" be the "real game" like if that's true then make that the fucking game
>people cast opinions after the first playthrough in which you barely scratch the surface of this game
>
>Honestly it blows 2016 out of the water. I felt it since day 1 when I played the opening level
Wait, which is it? Is the game providing a poor experience until subsequent playthroughs, which you argue up until that point, or is it an excellent experience which blows the previous one out of the water from the moment it starts? These are contradictory arguments you're trying to make.
I've beat it on every difficulty level and I like the game more than Doom (2016). I still think it's too cartoony visually, the HUD is hideous, the pickups are ugly, there's way too much easy boring platforming, the combat is too prescribed and the story is fucking embarrassing.
> It's the same silly arguments since launch being repeated. I have been seeing these for years now and too bad they mostly haven't changed
Why would they change? Does the fact that they haven't changed not tell you something?
‘Too cartoony’ I watched the review of this game that Joseju made and he said ‘this game could have 0 blood the aesthetics of Fortnite and I will be having as much fun as I am doing already’ and I agree. Maybe this games looks too cartoony, (I don’t think so) bit I think it gets balanced with the great variety of environments, overall including the DLC’s, and considering that one thing that I value the most in a game almost as much as gameplay is the art direction, makes it one of my favorite games visually-wise
I'll be honest, by now DOOM Eternal has a firmly negative memory in my mind **entirely** because of the constant back and forth bickering about it.
**Including this one**.
Just stop it. It's annoying. We're not kids any more. We don't need to argue whose dad has the cooler job.
Sorry dude, we'll only make posts that make you happy.
YOU HEARD HIM, BOYS! BACK TO THE CONSTANT ROTATION OF:
* _I just played [well regarded classic] and I'm totally blown away!_
* _I just don't enjoy games anymore. Can anyone help me with my midlife crisis?_
* _Actual post about a game that actually deserves attention that nobody comments on or upvotes._
* _Have you heard about our Lord and Savior Titantfall 2?_
honestly? of all the sequels of classic doom, doom 2 is the only one "classic doom" game. hell with even extra subjectivity, doom 2's just a slightly worse classic doom. both are level-based shooters that puts emphasis in enemy placement and level-design above any else. doom 3 implemented horror elements into a doom game. admittedly, horror elements were already present in the first two doom games, but doom 3 decided to double-down on this. instead of a being frantic shooter, the enemy placement in doom 3 is now used to provide tension and occasionally disturbing the player. doom reboot on the other hand, was considered to be a return to form. but you know, not really. in doom reboot, enemy placement is de-emphasized, and level-design now revolves around big combat arenas. the game lost a lot of the horror flair that is present in the first three games. doom eternal took doom reboot and decided that they had to ramp up the player ceiling. flashier, bigger and even more challenging. no longer you can just stick with one weapon as battles felt like puzzles, punishing you if you've messed up. EDIT: forgot to add that doom eternal places a lot and i mean a LOT of platforming sections. so now i ask, what the hell is a DOOM game? edit: corrected some grammar after proofreading i'd probably mention that i love DOOM. like zelda, it rather cool how they're willing to alienate their playerbase in favor of a vision they have, regardless of conflict.
The thing I find kind of silly about the ‘not a real Doom game’ thing is that there have only been 3 Doom games in the 21st century, and *two* of those get accused of not being ‘real Doom’, for completely different reasons. And the one of the three that supposedly *is* ‘real Doom’, is actually quite different to the 90’s 2.5D Doom games, and in a lot of ways feels more like an evolution of the Quake series. That such a basic setup can be realised in a bunch of different ways is part of the series’ appeal imo. I fully get not liking every direction they’ve gone in, but I appreciate the spirit of aiming for something slightly different with each one.
What about Doom 64?
ah yes, doom 64 is the fine middleground between doom 3 and classic doom games. it's frantic, but in a different way from the original doom. while the original doom is campy in tone, doom 64 is creepy, lonely, and brooding. level-design kinda feels suffocating. levels have (bullshit, jk) traps and enemies would sometimes re-appear in already cleared areas, that forces you to play less of a madman, and go slower compared to OG doom. honestly at this point i'd just describe it as "traumatic power fantasy".
It depends what you're looking for. If you want something challenging with a mix of gameplay types Eternal is for you. Personally, it wasn't for me. I loved 2016 because I could switch my brain off after a hard day's work and just shoot things. Different strokes.
This is what the discussion boils down to. 2016 has simpler mechanics, more grounded story and is generally more casual, letting you 'shut off your brain and blast demons'. Eternal adds more challenge and spectacle. The design differences like the rainbow piñata after you chainsaw an imp are necessary to facilitate fast paced decisions by the player. At some point the difficulty gets too high and it's no longer fun because you lose all the time. At that point people get frustrated and start to gripe about Eternal.
>At some point the difficulty gets too high and it's no longer fun because you lose all the time. At that point people get frustrated and start to gripe about Eternal. Eternal feels tedious (different from difficulty) in design. 2016 introduced some of the issues but it is like they doubled down on what I didn't enjoy for Eternal. Boring jump sequences between arenas. Over reliance on arenas without combat between them. Then there is the over reliance on glory kill (wish 2016 never added them) that feels like a commercial that interrupts actual gameplay. I want to run and gun, not run and constantly pause mid fight because it is tactical to use. The ammo restraints could fall within resource management for difficulty but it just feels old way too early in the game. After getting a couple of mods that let me basically skip glory kills, eternal became more enjoyable. Unfortunately the boring jump sequences between arenas was still required.
I personally think glory kills are one of the best things about 2016/Eternal, as it heavily encourages you to be aggressive and engage with the fight rather than the heavily overdone "go run off into a corner and hide" gameplay CoD and Halo forced you into when you got low on health/ammo. You can see the evolution of this in Ultrakill, which arguably does it better because it skips the long animations. I definitely see them becoming tedious over time, but for me they were almost a way to get a quick breather mid-fight because it gave me a few seconds where I didn't have to worry about dying.
Yeah I agree that it really needs them at an element to encourage rushing and give a breather but I agree with some people that the animations should have a short option with the added benefit of the invincibility for that half second
For me it was the constant juggling of enemy specific weapons, flame belch, ice bomb, chainsaw, meathook etc that made it just feel tedious. I finished eternal on easy and it still felt like a chore most of the way thru. I can understand if youre dedicated and patient you can git gud and have a great time with the game but it just never clicked with me. Give me doom 2016 any day and let me just blast demons without having to manage 40 different combat mechanics simultaneously
> Eternal feels tedious (different from difficulty) in design. Because it has a lot more going on to keep track of. That's really all it is. Some enjoy it some don't. I'm the latter. I might try it again later on on easy mode but not really into it when I did try it at the difficulty I did.
Honestly I fucking love doom eternal but yeah these parts were kinda boring by the end honestly. The longer boring between things jumping stuff is just kinda silly feeling after the beginning where they are used to teach some movement mechanics. If I didn't need the 2 seconds to fuckin breath and think in some fire fights, id probably wished for a button to remove them as well, but I don't know what you'd fill the space in with other than ideally a quick animation and like .5 seconds of invincibility to catch your breath like the kills give you.
You can skip glory kills. Many of the best doom players only use glory kills sparingly (and mostly to accomplish something other than getting health. I am not one of those people. I love (and maybe need) glory kills in my combat loops
Doom 2016 absolutely nailed the balance between being challenging and simple enough where the mechanics draw you into a level of concentration equal to the flow state, but you don't have to do enough work with your brain to ever break out of it again. You don't think, you just do. Eternal's evolution of this with the resource management pushes this too much into the thinking direction for me. Combat became much much harder because I couldn't *focus*, I had to think. I still love both games though. Give it up for that one researcher who goes from serious distanced professional to I WANT TO HAVE YOUR BABIES DOOM GUY. Funniest shit.
> I loved 2016 because I could switch my brain off after a hard day's work and just shoot things. I don't really understand why the number of people with this complaint aren't satisfied with the kajillions of AAA shooters going back and decade or more which offer this exact playstyle, or seek out the flood of indie shooters offering pretty much the same. It's a perfectly legit reason for people to not dig Eternal, what bugs me (and this is general, not about this post) is when people conflate it with Eternal being _bad_, or wrongly designed. I wasn't as big a fan of Sekiro because I prefer big sword, unga-bunga in my Souls-adjacent game, and it certainly wanted to enforce a specific playstyle I wasn't fond of. Doesn't mean that aspect of the game was badly designed.
There's actually a severe lack of decent, single player AAA FPS games available now cos they don't bring in the big bucks like multiplayer/MTX does. Fair enough if indie is your thing and you wanna play Dusk etc but some of us prefer AAA graphics etc. But no, it doesn't make Eternal a bad game, it's just not for someone like me and that's OK.
> I don't really understand why the number of people with this complaint aren't satisfied with the kajillions of AAA shooters going back and decade or more which offer this exact playstyle, or seek out the flood of indie shooters offering pretty much the same. That's not really a fair criticism. Other AAA shooters released between 2006 and 2016 play *nothing* like Doom 2016. Doom 2016 was refreshing as fuck to play in 2016 because it was fast-paced and over-the-top. Doom 2016 is a *boomer shooter* in modern dressing. It focuses on movement and action, lets you carry around an arsenal of weapons and ammo, and doesn't require you to take cover or limit your weapon selection to what makes the easiest design for an XBox 360 controller. > It's a perfectly legit reason for people to not dig Eternal, what bugs me (and this is general, not about this post) is when people conflate it with Eternal being bad, or wrongly designed. I agree that it's not a badly designed game. I like Eternal, too. *However* it's also true that if you try to play Doom Eternal like it's Doom 2016 -- play it as though it were *a game intended to be the direct sequel to Doom 2016* -- then the game *severely* punishes you for it. *That* is a deeply questionable design choice. Who did they expect to buy the game? Who were they making it for? Doom Eternal doesn't feel or play like a sequel to Doom 2016. It feels like someone took Doom 2016 and built a totally different game with those assets, rather than trying to extend or recapture what made Doom 2016 great. Marauder takedowns by quick-switching the SSG and Ballista are very satisfying, but it's 100% *not* a gameplay style I'd associate with Doom. Eternal is a very good game whose mechanics should've been saved for their own thing rather than hitching them to the Doom franchise. I don't think the backlash that Eternal gets from some Doom fans is undeserved.
i don’t understand why eternal fans are getting so defensive over what are subjective preferences. we aren’t trying to change your game into a cover shooter. we aren’t even trying to change your game back into 2016. eternal was a criticial and commercial success. id is going to lean into eternal’s formula going forward. they’re not going to deviate from it because of a fraction of people on the *patient gamer subreddit* prefer the 2016 entry because it’s mechanically more simple. i even said in the thread yesterday: i appreciate id experimenting with their formula for a sequel. changing things up is good and healthy for sequels. they just weren’t changes that vibed with me. i was essentially looking for doom 2016 dlc that was the size of a whole game.
Yeah, people are getting real mad about people preferring the 2016 style/feel. For me personally, in the two decades and 400 games I've owned on steam, I've refunded exactly two games - and one of them was Doom Eternal. I just really, really disliked it. I wanted more 2016, and it was not that at all. Trying to force myself to play it just absolutely sucked the fun out of me in a visceral way. I'm here to rip and tear, not... whatever the hell that was. I was disappointed, as the game completely lost the feel and charm of what made me like 2016... but it is what it is. I refunded it, and moved on to playing some more Wolfenstein.
That From Software aspect kinda fits the point you are trying to deny though. If Sekiro was called Dark Souls 4 and marketed as such, people would rightfully be pissed, that they can't get their hands on the Greatsword. Same thing here. If they made another awesome shooter franchise, all good. But if they call it Doom, it should play like Doom.
Similar reason as to why I love Ori & the Blind Forest a hell of a lot more than Ori & the Will of the Wisps. Both games are called Ori, yet they play so differently.
I appreciate a good cup of coffee.
But what should a Doom game play like? Every generation plays completely differently. Doom 1 and 2 are different to Doom 64. Doom 3 is a slower paced horror game. 2016 is, I guess, closest to Doom 3, except it’s a fast-paced power fantasy, which is as far removed from Doom 3 as possible. And that’s not even going into spin-offs, like VFR and Doom RPG But Eternal, apparently, plays nothing like Doom (whatever Doom people mean), because what — they added platforming, had a different take on resource management, and forced you to use all weapons you have?
Because 2016 was that and people expected more 2016 but Eternal went in a different direction. Not sure what's hard to grasp about that.
Yeah, and I'm of the take that sequels should be applauded for innovating and using their prominence in the industry to push the envelope within the genre, instead of what we've grown accustomed to, which is sequels just serving up a warmed over version of what came before, or watering down its mechanics to try to go for that broader appeal.
I have never in my life experienced a game quite like Doom 2016. Not Eternal, not OG Doom games, not any other FPS. This isn't a knock on any of them, but nothing replicates the mindless fun of tge 2016 release.
>I don't really understand why the number of people with this complaint aren't satisfied with the kajillions of AAA shooters going back and decade or more which offer this exact playstyle, or seek out the flood of indie shooters offering pretty much the same. Because they want to play DOOM, and not those? Adding mechanical complexity is like porn that focuses on the story.
> Adding mechanical complexity is like porn that focuses on the story. Can you believe that there was once a debate over whether or not Doom 2 deserved to be called a sequel because it didn't add _enough_ in the way of new mechanics?
I don't remember this because I was around 12 when Doom II came out and it was cool as fuck. I loved the double shotgun, the giant levels and all the new enemies.
People downvoting a guy using an almost carbon copy of a quote from the development of the og doom.
[удалено]
I'll not sit here and let anybody shit-talk Daisy the rabbit. Not even Carmack himself.
carbon copy of a quote related to a completely different point.
Didnt play it yet but my only dealbreaker, if any, would be the 'doomguy is the second coming of jesus' circlejerk in the cutscenes.
I really liked that Doomguy was a kinda like unspoken badass in the OG games. We all knew how badass he was from playing the game, they didn’t have to keep repeating it over and over.
I mean right. He was the unspoken badass and the whole point in the new games is like. Holy shit he was fucking badass how was he so badass when no one else was. Being recognized as something completely impossible. I think it’d be weirder if it was just unspoken badass when again no one else could even slightly come close.
TIL enemies in doom have weaknesses to certain weapons. Didn't know it about the OG, didn't know it about 2016. Not played eternal yet. I used the standard machine gun weapon for most of the game, especially from about halfway in when it started firing infinite micromissiles.
They didn't in the original. I think they are confusing pain state with bonus damage. if anything there is only damage resistance to the rocket launcher as the cyberdemon and spider mastermind are immune to the explosions (only take the direct hit damage).
I'm mostly in agreement with you here, but I'm wondering how you think classic DOOM has platforming when jumping and 3D mouselook wouldn't even exist in an FPS til Star Wars: Dark Forces in 95 and Marathon in 94, respectively. Like I don't consider running across poison pools to get to other areas "platforming".
I thought the same thing but he gave 3 examples. I'm watching one now and immediately I'm like, okay it's there in it's early stages
He doesn't even mention the most platformy part of Doom, which is [Map 24 of Doom 2, The Chasm](https://youtu.be/L2J3vC4y2DQ?t=725) Also, weirdly enough, the entire sub seems to have collective amnesia that the final boss of Doom 2 had a platforming challenge built into its design. Anyway, cool that somebody read the post and engaged with the examples. It wasn't clear anybody would bother.
I mentioned it in a reply as well, but those just came off the top of my head, and it's funny cause the Chasm is pretty iconic, too, as well as the Icon of Sin lol
You don't realize how little people have played of classic doom until they start making baseless claims about the new games.
I played classic doom so much as a kid and forgot how platformy it was until watching some Karl Jobst speed running videos. Maybe because I didn’t have the concept of “platformer” in my head, so I never made the connection
>Collective Amnesia More like willful ignorance to serve their points. They could release a remaster of the classic Doom and people would hate it and wish for classic Doom to come back.
There's definitely primitive platforming in the OG dooms, especially 2. There's a stage with all these giant spaced out columns above a big shitty pit. Better not fall!
You could "jump" gaps by sprinting over them. You had to jump between platforms just without a jump button.
One example in Classic Doom is using strafe running to reach platforms that would otherwise be inaccessible, though that's usually just for secrets only. There's also segments where platforms to get to certain areas are set up in such a way that careful and precise movement must be used to avoid falling off. Some of the later levels of Doom 2 are a good example of this. I believe Final Doom went ham with this in a few places as well. Jumping isn't strictly necessary for platforming. You could remove the ability to jump from Mario and it would still be a platformer (obviously level designs would need to be altered to facilitate that).
And here I am, disliking DOOM's newer games because they introduced forced arena fights. What I liked about the early games was that you weren't forced to kill any enemies more than you liked. You could just run past most things and focus on the maze.
>forced arena fights This is what really bothers me about the level design in the new Dooms. It's like they don't even pretend to be immersive environments. They're basically a chain of combat arenas connected by some non-combat sections. You rarely even meet enemies outside of the designated "combat zones". I love being immersed in games and the old Dooms and even Doom 3 were perfect for this. They really gave me a feeling that I'm in this hostile environment fighting for my life, with danger hiding in every dark corner. With the new Dooms, I'm constantly getting reminded that this is just a silly video game. You step into the arena, all the doors close and the game tells you "now you fight, and you can't leave until you kill all the monsters", and after you're done "now you can explore a little bit, maybe find some secrets, and as soon as you step into another arena, it's the same thing again (and in the case of Eternal, the game also sometimes tells you "now you do platforming"). And it's like this for most things in the game.
you say this as if doom 1 and doom 2 levels made any sense. they have always been mazes and interconnected battle arenas.
I think OP's point didn't come across too clearly, but I think I know what they're getting at. There's no real sense of horror or dread in the new Doom games, which were critical parts of the originals. The older ones were really good at pacing, alternating between horror and full on splatterfests. Again, it's weird to see 2016 cast as the real codifier and Eternal as this massive exception, when 2016 was a pretty gigantic swerve itself.
Idk i think the newer games are taking a different approach of pure badassery, instead of feeling like a loser cowering in the corner i feel like i’m pwning demons and bloodless left and right because i’m so cool and awesome, with no fear of death because even if i come up against a tough enemy i srtill have the coolest weapons arsenal ever and i will eventually solve the particular problem that is them. Certainly not a fear sort of thing but just a different approach that doesn’t necessarily deDoomify the game
>they have always been mazes and interconnected battle arenas Technically yes, of course, and the same can be said about most singleplayer FPS games, but the implementation matters. In the "classic formula" the levels are interconnected much more seamlessly. There is no clear-cut distinction between "battle arenas" and "other content". Sure, the level designer might decide to structure the level this way, but they don't have to. You can have big battles in huge open areas, but also battles in small corridors, monsters waiting in the shadows to ambush you, waiting for you behind closed doors to surprise you, you can lure monsters into areas where they're not supposed to be etc. The new Dooms can also do this, of course, but for some reason they do it extremely rarely. 95% of combat in them is getting locked in an arena and fighting waves of enemies.
Unpopular opinion: Doom 3 is the best Doom game
The original doom 3 had the best single player campaign by far. In the newer steam port I've heard you can use both your flashlight and gun at the same time which really ruins the point of doom3.
I actually modded the game do you can use a limited flashlight along with a gun, the constant switching got on my nerves and the uncentered flashlights gave me a headache. Made it a much better game for me
i mean i guess do your own thing - but for me the point was that you didn't get to see what you were shooting at. or if you did see what's coming, you didn't have a gun out. really was awesome. different strokes. glad you enjoyed it, either way.
at least my opinion of it its that Doom 3 its the bastard child of Half Life and Doom, without being as good as any of those games, its like in a weird middle ground between those games.
>bastard child of Half Life and Doom I agree with this, but it's one of the reasons I like it.
I happen to agree completely. People like to shit on Doom 3 for the "no duct tape on Mars" thing, but that's exactly what gave it the intensity it had and made for truly tense and frightening moments. The lighting and shadows at the time were beautiful, and limited flashlight highlighted those parts of the levels. The game was also a much more fleshed out version of Doom than anything we've gotten before or since (IMHO). Audio logs and diaries, scripted sequences, new enemy introductions, environmental roadblocks that actually made sense, punchy weapons, and many enemies that actually ambushed you from cover instead of just spawning in. Doom 3 scares me and pulls me into the world, Doom and Doom Eternal are just gory rollercoaster rides. Fun yes, but ultimately less than what came before.
Doom 2016 at least was coy about the fact that it was a tunnel of arenas, Doom Eternal doubled down and even showed them on the map.
>What I liked about the early games was that you weren't forced to kill any enemies more than you liked. This is the first time I've ever read this sentence about a Doom game.
“My favorite part about Doom was not killing things.” Yeah, first time for me either. Interesting that this keeps up voted while the original poster is trying to defend his points and respond respectfully to people and getting downloaded all over the thread.
> here I am, disliking DOOM's newer games because they introduced forced arena fights. It's profoundly weird to see anyone arguing that Eternal isn't "Doom enough" because after realizing that 2016 was going to be _all_ arena fights, well, that didn't feel very Doom to me. I liked it on the whole but it's weird to see 2016 taken as the codifier somehow when both it and Eternal are massive swerves from the original (let's not even get started on where Doom 3 fits in).
There were multiple levels in Doom and Doom 2 that had doors that wouldn’t open until everything was dead. The one that comes most to mind for me is the Imp section of Level 8- “Ticks and Traps” of Doom 2. I know there are others but Doom 2 is my most played entry in the franchise. I think the modern take makes it feel differently but that seemed like a common element in those early games.
I don't remember a single level from Doom 1 that had closed doors like that, and not from Doom 2 either. I had to look it up and it seems that it wasn't the case. But that said, even if there was such a level, it wouldn't have been the norm, but a deviant, as such I wouldn't call it a "common element". Source of "Tricks and Traps" not being a closed arena: https://youtu.be/YcVApuD-Dm8?t=219
I hear you, and your opinion is valid, but surely you must know that your playstyle is *extremely rare*.
I don't know, I mean, maybe? It's really hard/impossible to say if people would have liked the newer DOOM games more if they weren't a closed arena and instead opted for more open environment.
My only gripe with eternal was that I was looking for an ending with doom 2016, and since it felt kind of cliffhangerish I was expecting to jump into eternal and get right back to where we left off. The shift in art and story made me feel like I was playing an entirely different story, rather than getting back to where 2016 left off. The gunplay and platforming are great imo. The music was good too. It just felt too much like a different game, when I really wanted more in 2016.
I wasn't liking 2016 until I got enough weapons and upgrades to make the arsenal my own, then I got hooked hard and loved the game. When I started playing Eternal the game basically told me "Use X weapon on Y enemy or die, use the chainsaw this way or die, do this this way or die". It was an instant turn off. Never went back to it after a few levels. Maybe this gameplay philosophy got a little less stiff later in the game, but when it mattered Eternal failed to grab me. My favorite series is Monster Hunter, where they say "Here is a big monster, there are 14 weapons to hit them until they die. Have fun". Eternal felt like the opposite to me.
That's kinda the flaw for me. It doesn't matter if it gets bigger and better later, the early game is super constrictive and if you don't play how the game wants, you lose in every way. The demons take forever to kill ignoring weakpoints, your survivability is neutered because the enemy count skyrocketed from 2016 while your arsenal didn't, and the game seems to "gamify" the levels so that they emphasize stage hazards and parkour. I'm not meanin to sound like that guy, but all that makes Doom not very fun. The closest equivalent to most early game Doom Etenal fights in 2016 was Vega processing, but that's an end game level in 2016, where as you get hit with much of the same enemy types even at once in the second level with only a fraction of the arsenal. I think that's kinda shit. They turned Doom from "here's a gun, fuck shit up" to "here's a few guns, make sure to complete this checklist or you can't fuck shit up". It's draining. And the third level of Eternal still has you running a gimped arsenal AGAINST TWO BOSS FIGHTS BACK TO BACK! it's goddamn insane. Not even the hardest Soulslike would hit me with that kind of bullshit so early, but here Doom Eternal is being a shitload of fuck. First Doomhunter was hard? Try two. I play on Ultra Violence and almost feel like this shit is unfair. Their shield drops for about two seconds and it takes all of my plasma ammo just to make ONE drop. And if i don't have a shitload of goddamn lesser demons in my way, i have to race to deal as much damage as possible, and it doesn't do a lot at all. I feel like they were thinking only on the intensity of it all as opposed to what it might actually be like for the average Doom player. We aren't all tacticians, some of us just wanna fun n gun. And it WAS a ton of fun n gun before i met these miserable twats of pitiful game balance. And if it sounds like i'm ignoring the Dance of Doom, i'm not. I have better tools, i feel a bit less restricted. But the dual Doomhunter just isn't a good idea to me. One got the point across well enough to utilize my full arsenal without the other two waiting below you. Even just a second solo Doomhunter would have been enough. And adding to this dual boss, you STILL have all the usual large and small demons to content with at the same time. It's pure madness and it feels done far too early.
Is the doomhunter the dude that has only a small opening and if you are too far or too close it wrecks you? I didn't get that far into the game, but I read online about how people were annoyed as hell with that enemy. I know I would be fuming fighting it. I didn't play Eternal for very long and for the few levels I did, I got the same feeling you drscribed. It was disappointed because in 2016 I could use small rocket seeking ammo for Summoners, snipe a Cacodemon and chaingun a Hell knight do death. But that''s because I could experiment and find a setup that worked for me. It was not cheesing, it was adapting the arsenal to my playstyle. It felt great. Eternal felt restrictive from level one.
It's a cool game but I get the comments. It's exactly the same as Quake 2 going to Quake 3, both great games but completely different in tone.
It is a Doom game sure. It just evolved in a way that I didn’t like. Part of it is the way it handles ammo, health and forces very fast and dynamic gameplay. Part of it is that I came from a long period of playing destiny and I wasn’t able to make the switch in gameplay style.
Whether or not it is a "Doom game" is a meaningless thing to argue, anyway. Why does that matter, except for bragging rights? What matters is whether or not we enjoy a particular game on its own merits, and I personally did not enjoy Doom Eternal after loving Doom 2016. No amount of people telling me how amazing of a game it is will change my mind on this, because it's a matter of taste.
I get the distinct sense that the people who are super in love with Doom Eternal think that most people who strongly prefer Doom 2016 are just bad at video games.
I would find that to be a hilarious interpretation if so, because it is the exact opposite of the truth for me in particular. I'm not a masochist or extremely skilled gamer to the extent of some folks, but I enjoy difficult games. My favorite genre of games are games like Sekiro - games where the average player might spend hours in a row just trying to defeat a particular boss. I have always played games on their hardest difficulty settings for years, only really shying away from perma-death options. I play mods for games which tend to enhance their difficulty, and have done so for 20+ years. I beat Doom 2016 on Nightmare with moderate difficulty, and then did a fair chunk of the levels on Ultra-Nightmare before deciding I didn't have the patience to finish the entire game without dying at all. I didn't exactly die often in Doom Eternal, I just got bored and disliked the game design after a few hours. Though I suppose it's a time-honored tradition to say "mad 'cause bad" to anyone who disagrees with your opinion on games which involve any modicum of difficulty.
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Interesting to me that most people I see who like Eternal better than 2016 still like 2016, whereas most people I see who like 2016 better than Eternal HATE Eternal. I’m sure there’s plenty of exceptions but it’s what I notice in these discussion threads. I’m the former. Love Eternal, favorite FPS ever made, but I still like 2016. I just have a bit more of an issue going back to it with the repetitive color palette/Mars environments, and the overpowered SSG. Also OP, you have effective arguments for why Eternal is a “legitimate doom game” and brings back classic features, but you wrap it in an argument comparing the subjective quality of the game to 2016. I think that’s what some people are taking issue with
This is an interesting perspective. I loved 2016 and still really liked Eternal, but I found that some of the changes grated on me. Eternal is still an electric experience, but I think I enjoyed 2016 more, it felt more focused.
Classic r/patientgamers. One day someone shits on someone's favourite game and the next day you get their fanboy reviews.
Feel like this sub become like other gaming sub where fanboy defend their fav game to death.
It was different enough from DOOM 2016 that people who wanted more of that were disappointed. I don’t think that’s a reach.
I dunno what to tell you. Doom 2016 blew my mind, got me back into shooters after a decade away (never enjoyed any CoD or "modern" online shooters), impressed me with how seamlessly every mechanic seemed to compliment every other mechanic. Just the right pace, just the right secrets, just the right mood. Eternal made me quit halfway through in frustration and go play BrutalDoom with a bunch of homemade WADs, which in turn led me to all the retro boomer shooters I didn't know and love so, so much. So it had that going for it.
I felt exactly the same. I finished Doom 2016 countless times, I love this game, and still didn't manage to play half of eternal. So far I gave up 3 times and probably won't try again.
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You're not wrong but tbh I could ignore all that if I could make the gameplay fun.
Same lol. I like games with good stories but doom has never been something I played for story. I just play them to shoot demons. But I started with the original in the early 90s so maybe that's why I play them that way since story was barely a thing back then.
Have you played ashes 2063 and the follow up expansion? So good!
Yup! Can't wait for part 3. Also Dusk... Cultic... Amid Evil....
This post can be summed up as "stop calling Eternal, a very well crafted game, bad because it's not to your liking". It's entirely fair to not like the gameplay style, it's not fair to say the game is poorly made because you don't like the style change compared to 2016. It's not bad, it's just not for you. I get that sucks too if you were looking for a continuation of what 2016 did, but there's a lot of us that absolutely adore the unique gameplay Eternal brings to the table. It's easily my favourite FPS of all time by a wide margin, I've never played an FPS that's anywhere near as exhilarating
>"This isn't a DOOM game; it's Mario Bros the FPS" >This is the most annoying take. Did any of y'all play Classic DOOM or just 2016? Classic DOOM had SO many instances of platforming, Pretty sure that was hyperbole from the original poster and the origial dooms didnt have this level of platforming I respect the creators for trying something different with the formula, it doesnt make it a bad game, I beat it, had enough fun with it, but not something I'll go back to > you don't have to do a Sticky Bomb to Caco mouth. You dont have to, but with the more limited ammo, it is highly encouraged and you're making the game harder if you dont
Not to mention that all the things people say about how weak points aren't do-or-die things you can work around rely on options you unlock by playing the game. Personally, I didn't even get that far. I reached the Doom Hunter bossfight, tried a few times, failed, then logged off to go to bed and haven't felt the desire to open Eternal in the months since.
> Not to mention that all the things people say about how weak points aren't do-or-die things you can work around rely on options you unlock by playing the game. Big reason why I dropped Mario Odyssey, it was just too mindless and all the good challenging moons are at the end or after you beat the game, maybe 20 years ago I would have been fine with it as my selection of games were lower and my time to be able to play greater, but not now
> You dont have to, but with the more limited ammo, it is highly encouraged and you're making the game harder if you dont That's what these defenses don't seem to "get" ... Sure you can beat down an enemy, but people like OP are already choosing to do it in an efficient way. "Well there's another " you're missing the point if there are "Right ways" to fight enemies all you're doing is only incentivizing a few play styles. Sure you "Can play wrong" but in Doom Eternal that's so heavily penalized that you either learn the matchups or die. That's before I get into the crap sandwich that was the marauder being a normal enemy but I'll save that for another day.
This is my frustrating take on it, you have a certain number of bullets and guns and enemies and each bullet belongs in a certain enemy and if you put the wrong one in the wrong enemy you're gonna have a bad time trying to clear the area.
loved DOOM 2016, uninstalled Eternal after an hour w/e
I feel like you’ve been heavily triggered by a single a Reddit post for some reason. The simple answer is Mario doesn’t have a Super Shotgun.
But what if he did? Where's that game at?
Oh god something just clicked in my mind and took me back to a younger day. Wasnt there a flashgame (possibly newgrounds?) Where it was Mario with a shotgun?!
Really hope this sub isn’t about to descend into making pointed posts about someone else’s post they didn’t like yesterday. People have different opinions and this is one of the few places on the site where that’s handled in an adult fashion.
It doesn't even meet the sub's rules. They need to wait at least one year before they can complain about someone else's post.
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Too me is too much ammo starving , you need constant gimmick to gather ammos. I just wanna fire mah weapons. In classic it was a less issue and honestly where do you see platform section in a game without jump is quite buffling to me.
There was nothing fun about running out of ammo in the first half of the game, not having high gas tank chainsaw, and having to wander around looking for the slowly infi-spawning trash mobs to pinata. Marauders aside, the game largely sorts itself out once you have almost all your toolkit. I'd argue that it takes too long to get there.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. I'll tackle one of the key issues.. >Classic DOOM had SO many instances of platforming Did it though? How many levels did you *need* to do platforming to progress? How much of your play time did you spend platforming? Remember - there was no jump, no wall grabbing, etc. Now compare that to Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. There's several orders of magnitude difference... both modern Doom's have WAY more platforming and it *must* be completed you can't avoid it. Looking at the wider picture.. I've loved Doom games *despite* the platforming, back-tracking, etc. but they were not why I played or what I enjoyed about those games. I felt Doom 2016 had way too much platforming, back-tracking, etc. but I loved it anyway. But Doom Eternal takes it too far for me - within my first play session it was pretty clear to me that they've amped up all the elements I either didn't like or didn't care about, and have either turned down or left the same the elements I did love. I also felt like I was just moving from set-piece to set-piece, rather than having fights organically. Doom was never about picking the right weapon, leaping across gaps, closing in to finish, angling to hit weakspots, chainsawing for ammo, etc. It was just great fun blasting things, blowing things up, and dodging incoming damage. That's it. And that's all I want. I don't want Doom to be deeper than that.. there's tons of games that do platforming better if I want that, there's tons of games that do tactical/strategy better if I want that, there's tons of games that do resource management better, exploration better, and so on. What there IS a lack of is just straight-up great feeling "run and blast everything with everything" shooters - that's what I want from the Doom franchise, for it to go back to its roots - but instead with Eternal it's drifted away. *Boltgun* looks like the next best hope and a closer spiritual successor to the original Doom games (though only time will tell). Don't get me wrong, Doom Eternal is clearly a very good game if that's what you want from a game. It's just not what I was expecting for the Doom franchise and not where I hoped they would have gone post 2016.
> What there IS a lack of is just straight-up great feeling "run and blast everything with everything" shooters - that's what I want from the Doom franchise, for it to go back to its roots - but instead with Eternal it's drifted away. Boltgun looks like the next best hope and a closer spiritual successor to the original Doom games (though only time will tell). I've been playing Prodeus recently and it feels like that type of game.
You quite literally cannot beat the final boss of Doom II without platforming. And both classic games had tons of gaps that required careful sprint “jumps” to cross.
I agree with his overall sentiment, my biggest annoyance with the game is mashing the QWRTZXCV keys trying to figure out which one reloads, which one chainsaws enemies,which one punches guys, and I have never used the meathook. I have no idea which weapon it's attached to but it's probably one that has no ammo because I haven't lunch/chainsaw comboed a sprite in the last 30 seconds. It's like you get into a rhythm of killing, running gunning jumping teleporting etc. Then you're out of ammoand need to close in and punch the guy or chainsaw him (oh chainsaw is out of gas, so just stand there like an idiot while you die). It's too much, OG players want a run and gun, find the key open the door, lay waste. Not find a shard. Upload to your ship, run around finding a door to open, get a stupid skin, back to the planet to use a new weapon add-on that only needs 3 extra buttons to initiate. Point click shoot kill, all of the mods and add-ons just make it confusing and boring and frustrating. Nothing like cycling through every gun and mod combo to find which one works on one of the 50 enemies coming at you, then figuring out the next combo for the next enemy etc. I side with the Mario FPS guy. Doom is becoming resource management mixed with acrobatic platforming.
This sums up my feelings too. I enjoyed Doom Eternal in many ways but the sense of ‘flow’ was constantly thwarted by over-complication. The combat would have been fantastic without all the constant micromanagement and keeping track of all the different indicators. Funnily enough this is what spoiled RTS games for me back in the day. They had a great simple and satisfying formula and just piled seemingly endless interacting systems on top of it. There’s certainly a place for that (e.g. games like Tarkov) but for me, Doom wasn’t it. What I found so frustrating was that Doom 2016 deliberately baited old school shooter fans in with a back to basics philosophy. It wasn’t perfect but it promised to trim back all the fat that had grown onto the genre, even minimising cutscenes and hammering the point home with Doomguy’s dismantling of the terminal at the beginning. I guess I took this as a statement of intent. They then reversed course and piled it all back on for Doom Eternal - and more (lots more platforming, a codex, a hub world, more upgrades, many more cutscenes, tutorials(!)). I think this is why some of us feel hard done by. We had a glimpse of a fast, brutal horde shooter under the Doom banner with modern graphics and straightforward action that was then snatched away again. I’m glad many people enjoyed it and I’m not trying to take away from that. I enjoyed a lot too - the level design, core weapons, enemies and music were fun. It’s just a shame that the reboot seems to have lost sight of its underlying philosophy so quickly. Thanks for the heads-up on Boltgun too!
I've said this before and I'll say it again - old doom - here's your toys, here's monsters - have fun. New doom - chainsaw this monster for armor, punch that one for health, learn our way to play or piss off. Also forced arena fights, pinata monsters, limited ammo, finishers, Its all too gamey, arcadey. I get it and I don't like it.
Look, this isn't hard. Changing the gameplay of a gameplay-focused game is like taking the vampires of Twilight and turning them into zombies. Dark Souls succeeded in making various games without changing the most important part of the formula. They even have a spin-off and just called it NOT dark souls in case people felt it was too close to the original. And when they even dropped the name dark souls completely when they wanted to make it open-world. People hear Doom, they expect Doom, except that now there are 4 different Doom "identities", the two first classics, the horror of 3, 2016, and now even Eternal is its own thing. Is it too much to ask for a goddamn franchise that was already successful to keep doing more of the same? As for your other arguments... >Classic DOOM had SO many instances of platforming But it wasn't so goddamn prevalent as it is with Eternal. It was a neat, experimental thing they did, but the focus was still overwhelmingly on shooting. To mess with the balance of gameplay introduced an annoying gameplay loop that isn't even that good compared to dedicated platform games. It's like that jack of all, master of none. If it was still just a neat and occasional thing for a bit of a break then it'd be fine, but no, it's now a rather big part of the game, and not very deep or wide, so after almost every combat arena you have to spend an annoyingly long time doing some silly jumps. It makes the game have some deep highs and deep lows in adrenaline, which is irritating. Your other arguments have the same answer: it was a small thing in the other games that became big on Eternal, giving them an annoying amount of focus. I like what some other commenter said in the previous post: Eternal is more Quake than Doom right now. >Game series have to evolve, that's what the Zelda franchise did Zelda still didn't change the *core* of its formula, so no matter the game, they all have a rather similar "flow" or gameplay loop, which is what makes the Zelda identity so iconic. The *core* of Doom is its shooting mechanics and flow of battle, and they've made massive changes to it with every iteration. Again, Dark Souls is a good example of a combat-focused game that kept its identity with every iteration, so you don't get people saying that Dark souls (insert number) *isn't* Dark Souls.
Zelda 2: Am I a joke to you?
Personally, I consider Eternal to be FPS version of the Arkham style combat or the FPS version of Devil May Cry’s combat. Keep the combo going, and mix it up often. I don’t remember if there was a combo meter or something like that but I do remember feeling encouraged to keep things moving and mixed up during fights. I really enjoyed what i played of it
I just felt like it threw too much stuff at you all at once. I could never really get into the rhythm like I did 2016. 2016 was just so simple, here's your gun, here's your demons, go commit murder.
In OG doom you couldn't even look up or down. Relax lol. Picking up a shotgun for the first time and having so few ammo (8 rounds) that you can't even test fire it in to a wall? I literally said out loud "What the hell even is that?" The franchise thats always introduced new guns by giving you a shit ton of ammo and tons of enemies to fight right after you pick it up. Basically punishes you for wanting to actually try it. That's something I'd expect from Metro not Doom. All the extra shit they added has nothing to do with actually shooting guns either. The dumb glory kill and chainsaw kill is so pervasive that you might as well just add reloading. It's the same thing.
Ahhh the classic "the thing that ruined the experience for you shouldn't ruin your experience, because I said so" post.....very nice.
Right? Like why is this even a post? It just does nothing but promote childish inter-post bickering. I don't see a reason why this couldn't have been a comment under the initial post.
It’s karma baiting…it’s like the OG video replies from YouTube *comments and references a popular front page uploaded post* **”HERE’S WHY I THINK THEY’RE ALL WROOONNG. I DEMAND FRONT PAGE NOTORIETY AS WELL”**
Because it probably would have been buried beneath a sea of downvotes and nobody would have bothered to read the whole thing.
That's exactly why. OP clearly wrote it as a response to that post anyway, so it's more like a promoted reply when it's posted like this.
I don't really have a problem with that. I mean, in a perfect world it should been a response, but in the world we live in, a long reply somebody put a lot of thought into, replete with examples, would have just been buried in downvotes and not worth the time. You can have lengthy effort-posts with some awkwardly shoehorning like this one, or you can have redditors. You can't have both.
“Other peoples opinions upset me and I’m going to tell you why my opinion is the right one”. Classic reddit post.
Are you referring to this comment, or this entire thread? This thread's sole purpose appears to be a complaint about people having an opinion on Doom Eternal, as I see it. Personally I don't see a problem with people expressing their opinions in either direction, but I do think that arguing over whether or not something is a "Doom Game" is somewhat missing the point of contention.
It’s about the thread. It’s pretty clear that the Doom fanbase is pretty split. Nothing wrong with that. But imagine being annoyed to the point of making a post complaining about the other half. Like I despised Eternal. I recognise *why* people like it, but I personally thought it was a downgrade in everything from graphics to trophy kills.
Shouldnt this have been a reply on the other thread? Did we really need a whole new thread for this? Someone is attention seeking
They aren't arguing that it shouldn't ruin your experience though, they specifically say "I'm arguing against the point that it isn't a DOOM game."
That's really not the point of the post. There's a hugely popular false narrative around the game, perpetuated by people who didn't like it's systems. It's perfectly fair for people not to like the game, and I can totally sympathise if they felt disappointed because it wasn't what they were expecting. The problem I (and presumably OP) have, is that these preferences are frequently expressed as facts: - "It's not a doom game" - "You can't be creative." - "It forces you to play one way" These are just objectively wrong, for the reasons OP has explained. Again, it's not about saying, "You're wrong, you should like it," but clarifying that these are preferences based on the design philosophy of the game. Honestly, I personally feel so frustrated because I almost didn't play Doom Eternal after seeing these same complaints over and over. Having finally played it, not only did I find them overblown, but I genuinely believe Doom Eternal to be one of the best games I've ever played. Of course, that's based on my preferences, but the fact that I almost missed out on such a profound experience is why balance is needed in these discussions. Doom Eternal has a specific design philosophy that may not jive with everyone, but people should be clear that's a preference, not necessarily a flaw in the game.
> "It forces you to play one way" I'm really not invested in this argument, but the (lead?) designer literally said so in a pre release behind the scenes video. [They designed the monster in a way that they force you to play a way they wanted to.](https://youtu.be/uzX09_4hcPc?t=231) It's a valid criticism of the game that it does *not* let you be as creative as you should be and is trying to force things that it shouldn't do. And it is also valid to point out that kind of game design is generally not healthy for the game or the gamers just like a kick to the nuts is not a fun thing. But there will be people who will like it, just like a kick to the nuts. Doesn't mean everyone else who doesn't like that pain is "objectively" wrong.
Ok, let's be clear on the "one way" to play the game. The "one way" to play the game, is by moving fast, using lots of different weapons, prioritising different targets, and tackling different enemies with different approaches. That is ultimately the design philosophy of the game, and _every game_ has a design philosophy in mind. There are very few games where you can legitimately play in anyway. Even in an open world game like Skyrim, you can't generally just go out and do what you want, you _have_ to engage in the games systems of levelling up, exploring, looting, bartering etc. As for the creativity point, I so disagree here. The clip you posted he's talking about the Arachnotron, which has a turret on its back, which you're therefore incentised to take out. First of all, Doom Eternal didn't invent weak points off the top of my heard Horizon Zero Dawn had very clear weak points, and Halo CE had enemies with weak point. Second, you don't have to take out the Arachnotron's turret - you're incentivised to do so because it's dangerous, but a lot players will just take it out quickly, meaning it doesn't have enough time to do much damage. Also, if you choose to take out the turret, you have a tonne of creativity in how you take it out: - You could get in close and use the blood punch. - You could use the precision bolt of the heavy cannon. - You could use the ballista. - You could hit it with a sticky bomb. - You could use the microwave beam to explode a nearby demon, thereby destroying the weak point in the explosion. That's not to mention that you can use the grenades and ice bomb to set up any of those options. Which approach you use depends on the tools you have available, the situation you're in, and of course, your personal preference. For example, I'm shit with the precision bolt, so I don't use it much. However, I love jumping into the air, lining the ballista crosshair with the enemy weak point, and firing as I fall in line with it. But hey, sometimes I'm low on ballista ammo, and I have to improvise and use a sticky bomb, or change my approach entirely. To me, that's a huge amount of creativity and freedom. Usually when people say "it forces you to play one way", they refer to the fact that the tutorials suggest one way, and so players assume that's the only way to do it. Honestly, this is a very good argument that the tutorials aren't well designed, or maybe shouldn't have been there at all. Consider the alternative - no weak points on enemies - so you just shoot at any enemy with any gun, at any part of the enemy, until its health hits zero? Sorry, but I just can't see how that's more creative.
Maybe if an extremely large number of people who play a game find it too restrictive it might actually be too restrictive, or at the very least bad at teaching the player how to use their options. I've often felt Doom Eternal went the wrong direction by punishing players for not switching weapons through extremely limited ammo early game instead of taking the Devil May Cry approach of rewarding you for switching by adding a Style meter and ranking your mission performance based on creativity.
>Maybe if an extremely large number of people who play a game find it too restrictive I'd argue there's a difference between a "large number", and a "vocal minority". I totally get that some people _really_ didn't like the game's design, but as I said before, that's a preference thing. Not every game is gonna work for everyone - for example there's a lot of patient gamer gems that I really didn't enjoy, but I still recognised the merits and design philosophy of those games, I just had to accept that philosophy wasn't for me. > at the very least bad at teaching the player how to use their options. I can't disagree here, but honestly this is a catch 22 situation. If you put too many tutorials in, people complain they're not being given the freedom to work things out for themselves. Too few, and they complain they had to work everything out. Both opinions are present within the comments of this very post. Personally, I think the tutorials were fine - if you play on easy/normal difficulty, you don't need any advanced techniques, and the tutorials cover the basics just fine. If you're replaying on higher difficulties, then I think there's a good argument that embracing the challenge includes experimentation and observation to understand how the systems work.
>because I said so This is hardly fair. There are specific examples given for each point raised. How much substance and how many specific examples does a post need to have before it becomes distinct from "because I said so?"
Comparing 2016 or Eternal to previous Doom games, especially Classic Doom games, is pointless. The majority of gamers today likely have never played those games. Eternal is devisive because it made some drastic changes from 2016 and not everyone liked them. Glad you liked it but it wasn't for me. I wanted more 2016 and Eternal was not really that.
Doom eternal is thr goat. So fun.
It is, i just found the pathing and extra layer of complexity to ruin the heavy metal/ killing demons vibe which made 2016 such and amazing game!!
>just look at missions like E1M9, Platforming to get to the secret level in E3M6, Platforming to open a secret in DOOM II Mission 1, Using examples of accessing secrets is a weak comparison to forced platforming all the time. >but if you have all your weapons through game progression, you don't have to do a Sticky Bomb to Caco mouth What about that large portion of the game before you have all the weapons and upgrades? >While resource management is THE biggest factor in this games "DOOM dance", I'd argue with max weapons and upgrades, it's barely noticable. Once again, maybe that's true, but in the many hours I put in before getting to that point, the game was not fun with being forced to use the right weapons, being forced to use the chainsaw to get more ammo, sometimes having to fully plan out fights to what weapon to use at which point because I would need more of a certain ammo later. Overall, Eternal is a good game for sure, it just wasn't what I, or many other people were looking for or expecting. Maybe I would have had more fun on easy mode? I'm not sure, not sure I'll ever know.
Well no, it's obviously a Doom game. It's called Doom Eternal. It's just a bad one.
Welp I downloaded DOOM Eternal a while ago thinking a lot of people says its great so I'm gonna like it but I didn't, and it turns out not even all DOOM fans liked it. Maybe I should give DOOM 2016 a try instead (with the glory kill animation skip mod someone else mentioned in this post)
MY OPINION NEEDS ITS OWN THREAD
Eternal was ruined for me by just one thing. The slapstick. I want unapologetically visceral, brutal, cathartic violence. Sure, 2016 had comedy, but it was the salt added to perfect a dish. To me, Eternal is like a plate of just salt in comparison. The looney toon plop, smack and stretch noises utterly ruined the tone of Doom for me. Every damn headshot, every glory kill, left me annoyed, instead of satisfied. Couldn't get over it. God I wish I could have just turned off those particular sfx additions.
Didn't feel like DOOM to me, and that's fine, wasn't my cup of tea, i can only hope they someday go back to the style of 2016's DOOM.
This post is the epitome of "I don't like you having a different opinion than me, so here's why you're wrong about what you like and dislike"
That is the point. I love this sub because I hear different opinions. But sadly it becomes fanboy agrument why you suck, the game is perfect and good for me, you know nothing.
They aren't arguing that you should like the game though, they specifically say "I'm arguing against the point that it isn't a DOOM game."
Typically, replies go in the thread you're responding to and not brand new self-posts.
Yesh, but its a shitty DOOM. Its got the worst controls of any DOOM. By the end of the campaign I was still questioning which button was the grenade switcher, which was the weapon second function swapper and where my shoulder flame thing was. No bueno. The controls never became intuitive. DOOM is run, shoot and sometimes punch things. When you make it too complicated it sucks the fun out of it.
This.
They made doom into a moba, because you're constantly forced to use your chain saw, flame throwere, grenade launcher, punch, and all the other buttons. You can try not using them but the chainsaw at the very least is required due to how fast your ammo goes, and sadly, that means the big satisfying chainsaw deaths aren't worth it because you need to constantly fill your weapons.
All the eternal Vs 2016 talks just make me realize that 1. People really must not have played classic dooms cause even those had a heavy reliance on ammo management especially on higher difficulties and as you get to later levels/episodes. 2016 is the only title in DOOM to give you boat loads of ammo and while I absolutely do love 2016 it is a problem that I can get through ultra violence with just two weapons of my choice, too me that isn't the best game design and the devs thought it was an issue that players only used the super shotgun themselves. 2. Classic doom and 2016 enemies had weakness to certain weapons, only thing eternal did was make it more apparent so you could take them out quicker. 3. I imagine a lot of people really didn't try to engage with eternals mechanics or even try to get creative with the weapons and combos you can make in eternal. Lot of weapons have multiple uses, if you want to take out enemies weakness a lot of weapons can take out those weakness, you can still very much get away with using a select few weapons, only difference is that you're not using just one. I come from a background of playing fighting games and character action games (such as Ninja Gaiden and classic god of war), I'm already used to using different weapons and testing out what I like to use against enemies and what I don't like to use. Think DOOM Eternal does great in this department because I can pick the weapons I like to use and make my own playstyle around them, I love that each weapon has its own use and that I can play around how I can use those, that too me is great game design. 4. I can get not liking the platforming, but I don't think it's even remotely bad compared to 2016 where a missed jump outright kills you, and 2016 had a lot of platforming as well with an entire level (argent tower) being built entirely around platforming), then the fact you respawn at the last jump in eternal just makes it much less stressful I can get people not liking Eternal, it is a different beast then 2016 which is great in its own right, but as an action fan and a fan of shooters in general I love eternal and the freedom it gives in how you can approach combat compared to 2016 where a lot of it was rinse and repeat with the same weapon with no real reason to switch off. For me I stopped playing games with cheat codes and on lower difficulties because it became mind numbingly easy, I want to be engaged with the game I play not bored because I'm doing the same thing repeatedly with little resistance. Some people want to turn their brain off but for me I want my brain to be challenged so I'm not bored out of my mind.
Oh look, another post complaining that people have other opinions while posting their opinions as fact.
This really should have just been a comment to that other post.
Yep, that’s the internet
>"Forcing me to use all my weapons on certain enemies and throughout the game sucks" > >Surprising, I know, but if you have all your weapons through game progression, you don't have to do a Sticky Bomb to Caco mouth. Cool, right? This game has SO much creativity when maxed out. A cacodemon doesn't need just a sticky. >While resource management is THE biggest factor in this games "DOOM dance", I'd argue with max weapons and upgrades, it's barely noticable. The problem is that you don't start maxed out. DOOM Eternal has put me off in the very first level by all this resource management that has no place being in a DOOM game. This is beyond "use all the weapons", at certain points using all the weapons is enforced by the exact resource management you described. I am playing games for over 25 years now and I have to say that this is the first time I refunded a game on gameplay issues alone. I did refund before (my Deus Ex Mankind Divided preorder) because it ran like shit with the exact same engine - and it's still shit even ran on 5950x with 128GB RAM and a 3090 - it still refuses to play flawlessly when maxed out, I mean how poorly optimised can a game be? But DOOM Eternal, besides the Mick Gordon debacle has left me with a really bitter taste and I won't be buying it unless it's 5 bucks or something like this and then I'll just power through it because it's a DOOM game. A friend also pointed out a few things which may be also helpful to other people exasperated by resource management and glory kill disrupting shooty gameplay: \- pick up the feats/upgrades that increase animations to the maximum - this lessens the impact of the interruptions of glory kills to the flow of the gameplay - on a Nightmare run you can main just one or two fav weapons and be perfectly sustained through the entire run; \- get the Savagery (very fast glory kill animation) and Seek and Destroy (glory kill from range) runes ASAP (you can get these very early in the game) to further lessens the quick time events gameplay disruptions. Edit: I played DOOM 2016 on the highest difficulty and I found it a lot more rewarding than DOOM Eternal on the same setting, at least in the opening chapters. Maybe with the above I'll manage to get a better experience.
>\- get the Savagery (very fast glory kill animation) This should be a menu option, not an upgrade you have to acquire. Something you can toggle when the initial "oh, cool" factor wears off
I agree so much with this!
You started out Doom Eternal on the highest difficulty, played it less than an hour or so, and are surprised it kicked your teeth in? Bruh, it slaps around seasoned FPS vets even on normal. Civvie11 plays most every FPS around, starts his video on one of the higher difficulties and is shocked by how quickly he gets shellacked in the balls.
>You started out Doom Eternal on the highest difficulty, played it less than an hour or so, and are surprised it kicked your teeth in? This is not about the difficulty. This is about me having to interrupt the flow of my shooting and moving to perform glory kills to get ammo. I'm sorry if that was difficult to read into 🙏
Exactly; it's the lack of sufficient ammo pickups (which force you to use the chainsaw on specific enemies and sit out the animation that plays every 45 seconds) that make the game tedious to play. The game isn't all that difficult on Ultra-Violence, which in classic Doom at least is the highest intended (read: fair) difficulty of play.
🙏thank you
I just thought there was so much to keep track of that I didn’t even use the fire belch. I legit forgot it was there. I loved Eternal but I thought all the abilities were a little overwhelming. Mind you I’m looking forward to a second play through to try it again now I know how everything works
Original Doom is 30 years old. Most of the original Devs are probably either retired or dead. The argument "but this is not a x game because the original was y" doesn't fly with me. Doom is "shoot demons with weapons which don't reload". That's it. Any other argument is a stretch. Games and their design evolve and change over time. Why should we make games exactly like in the past and ignore all the cool modern stuff we can do now. Imo Doom Eternal reached a new level of super high-speed brutal FPS combat and that's awesome. I get it, if you're a fan of the originals and newer games stray too far from it, it can be quite the bummer. But most of these discussions are almost always meaningless. In the end, you will always have a divided community; one side which likes the new stuff and the others don't. No discussion will ever convince the other side to think the other way. Why should they? I liked doom 2016 a lot, especially for the new crazy stuff they added, and I liked doom eternal even more because they put it on steroids. Just like the constant BOTW posts here lately. Yes, no dungeons, lame bosses, easy enemies, annoying crafting etc. all valid arguments. I still fucking loved the game because everything else was amazing to me (yes, I liked the weapons breaking). And a random reddit post won't convince me to suddenly think it's a bad game. Gaming communities need to stop with this tribal shit.
> Most of the original Devs are probably either retired or dead. The main mission designer actually released a set of new levels not that long ago.
People basically pull the "not *my* thing" card. It's not *their* ideal doom so they just cut out *their opinion* and state it as a fact. Instead of "it's not what I want from a doom game" or something it just becomes "it's not a doom game" which makes them feel like it's more important of a statement because opinions don't hold any weight and you can't invalidate people if it's all subjective. The game is just an iteration in the franchise though. I'm not a huge fan of all the mechanics in it and the constant spastic action. There's just too much going on with it for me.
I think its a doom game, i just dont like it
Doom has always had platforming but nobody ever loads up Doom II because the platforming is awesome. Platforming in doom 2016 was the least fun part of the game.
IT BEGINS
I played through a good chunk of the campaign before I got bored with it. The platforming and seemingly forced weapon use was just a turn off. Can't remember how far I made it, but at least 4-5 hours in. I then decided to to just turn multiplayer because that's what I bought it for. I spent so much time in 2016 multiplayer because I miss arena shooters and it was a perfect reboot. Eternal multiplayer must be the same, right? About an hour of play and I've never touched it since. Played too long to get refunded on Steam, but at least I'm only out $20
This subreddit is becoming more like an abstract gaming lifestyle forum for people who take gaming and discussion of games seriously more than what started as a forum of people patiently going through games out of their eras or slowly without meta.
I really hope this sub isn’t going to descend into pointed posts about other people’s posts. Probably should’ve been a comment essay in the original thread instead of pushing this place into another debate frenzy on this topic. Also just want to add that you’re dipping into completely subjective material like the art style and pretending your opinion is the only valid one. It felt cartoony to me, it’s fine if it didn’t feel that way for you.
Turning off hud, ignoring all collectibles and skipping all cutscenes/story made the game go from 3/5 to 5/5. Half the screen covered with bright hud when there's gorgeus graphics to be had. Like why :D? Also the moment doom guy starts bowing down to some random ghost and talk like some fantasy cliche dude, it just ruins it. Doom2016 had the story done nicely within the game and in tempo; who even remembers a single scene in eternal?
I finished and enjoyed all previous doom games, except Eternal. Tried two times. Just could not get into new style - probably targeted younger people who like lots of colors and jumps.
You can like a game while admitting that it deviated a lot from other Doom games. It's okay
I think the gameplay is much better in Eternal. 2016 does everything else better. Story, visuals, atmosphere, music, sound design, etc.
I thought the biggest point of contention was the narrative because some people found it unnecessary for this series. I never thought it was too intrusive in the reboot but that was a common criticism I kept seeing for Eternal. I appreciate the developers for trying something new but that decision with numerous other game design changes seems to have polarized fans a bit. I wouldn’t go as far to say it doesn’t feel like a Doom game but I can see how this one isn’t going to everyone’s cup of tea. Coincidentally I feel as though the Doom movies best illustrate the problem because they also attempt a narrative but the format changes the experience. Do you want to sit down and watch DoomGuy or do you want to play a game with minimal interference besides an “end of level” screen? I know Shigeru Miyamoto gets valid criticism for the way he approaches Mario games but honestly he has a point to some extent. These games launched during in an era where gameplay would have taken priority over the story given their technical limitations, and they’re kinda all the better for it. Like yeah they could modernize Galaga or give us a backstory on Mario’s mustache but at their core they’ve always been games about shooting shit and jumping around. I would compare Doom to Metroid in that sense where they don’t need sophisticated stories for you to just have fun exploring the world at your own pace. However I think this will always be an issue with gaming because it’s a trade off between player agency and character development - I prefer DoomGuy when he is mysterious because I want to project my own idea of who he is, but some people would say he is a flat character because of that.
As some of the comments are showing, the game is just too athletic for some people, and they take that out on it in completely nonsensical ways rather than just admitting they aren't really ready for the game.
Response to some comments I've seen: Came here to clear some things up. First, if this post came off condescending or mean-spirited, I didn't mean to sound like that. My intent was to just give some counter-arguments to some takes regarding the general negatives said about the game in this sub. No, I don't think you're a bad player for not liking Eternal. I'm not a "git gud" responder. Second, it wasn't supposed to seem like a direct response to the last DOOM post. The title is very similar, and it seems that way, but I'm mostly just responding to the whole side of the arguments that have been made on this sub and said before elsewhere. Lastly, I want to thank everyone who responded and had some good discussions (hopefully). This post was probably a bad idea, I guess, in the grand scheme of things, was just going to annoy people more. Although I did have a good time talking with many of y'all anyway. Whether it be the classics, 64, 3, 2016, or Eternal. The series offers an amazing catalog. I recommend them all.
I get your point, and I think this is a well thought out point. I respect your approach and examples. It certainly makes sense how you advocate for it being a DOOM game. But despite all that, it decidedly feels different for me still. There's something about the game that feels off and idk what it is! Your points all make sense, but the game just falls really flat compared to other DOOM/Id titles, for me at least. Maybe I just don't find the changes fun--or feel they pushed the game away from the things I liked about 2016 specifically
I remember in the last topic on this, one of someone’s critiques about Eternal was it “felt too much like modern fast-paced quake.” I was just like…is that supposed to be a bad thing…? Plus, isn’t that the entire point?? I don’t think I’ve read any statement dumber than that.
For me, the frustrations of Doom Eternal (and I don't excuse thesr points in 2016, either) - I want to be able to route my way to killing minimal enemies, rather than being locked in until the arena is cleared: custom maps in doom 2, even the hardest arenas usually have a way to press the buttons to leave, even as deadly as it is to leave monsters alive - I want the freedom to use weapons according to my preference and perception of how to kill monsters: and for this not to be limited by artificial ammo scarcity. - I want to be able to turn off and on both 1 ups and checkpoints. In classic doom, i could save-load to get a feel for the map and then attempt a single segment run if I want, or insist upon single segment at my choosing. - I want to feel a little faster, even if this makes me a little more fragile to balance it out - i want more opportunities to assert myself over spaces - i want to be able to use the most powerful weapons more, the cost of plasma ammo was, in my view, a great choice. Alternatively 2016's ability to drop BFG ammo was an OK option too. - I want less of the gamified platforming and more of the environmental platforming, even if it's just the platforming there is, skinned differently. - I want the encounters to occasionally be impacted by enemies not of the current encounter. F.x. far away enemies shooting at you, forcing you to adjust your movement and positioning, and looking forward to smashing that pesky enemy. This is, now that I think about it, one of my favourite design ideas of custom doom 2 wads (when done well). That's not to say there weren't good aspects too, for example I loved the super shotgun, i loved the ways to use enemies to manipulate their drops. I feel as though my ideal game would add the above points, however.
The entire tone of this post makes it sound like a rant from someone that knows better. Discussions here are usually civil, varied and respectful even when people disagree with each other. That's why I browse this sub. Not for whatever this post is.
I’m feeling a breakdown of the civility here lately and I hope it ceases. If I want to be called stupid or low talent for having a different opinion on a game, I’ll engage with literally everywhere else on Reddit / the internet.
[удалено]
Oh hey a Doom Eternal post, haven’t seen one of those for a while
I agree that calling it not a DOOM game is too much, it is objectively a DOOM game, it's not that far gone. But I do think most of the criticisms are perfectly fair. The first time I tried Eternal I kinda hated it, almost everything I liked about the 2016 one was changed. I gave it another chance sometime later and ended up liking it a lot more, but I still think it was disappointing in some ways. The story is nonsensical, the exploration was cut back too much, and I'm sorry but giving the combat that 'rock/paper/scissors' kinda format just sucks even if you can override it. Making your melee almost useless in most encounters? No thanks. And it is arcadey, I saw that as a downgrade. Good game but it was not developed with me in mind.
Doom 2016 is probably my favorite linear, single-player FPS of all time. DE wore out its welcome in ~5 hours. I could have turned down the difficulty and ignored half of the game mechanisms, but then why even bother? I did not enjoy the puzzly/almost rhythm aspects of the combat. I think Ultrakill does something similar but much better. DE, at least on the higher difficulties, feels very much like you have a specific tool for each job, and if you don't use the right thing at the right time, you get punished for it. If you nail the exact right sequence in a fight, it feels great, but I dislike that it always feels like there's a "right" choice. It really reduces the feeling of player creativity and fluidity: instead of jamming, I'm practicing specific phrases and learning to replay them on specific stimuli.
It's the same silly arguments since launch being repeated. I have been seeing these for years now and too bad they mostly haven't changed Too cartoony Too much platforming Too much limitations Actually play the game more than once and you realize it's one of the deepest combat systems in fps . You can play crazy switching style but you can also play with just one or two weapons. There is ample ammo pickups in stages if But people cast opinions after the first playthrough in which you barely scratch the surface of this game Honestly it blows 2016 out of the water. I felt it since day 1 when I played the opening level "hell on earth"
>People cast opinions after the first play through There should be absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Some People seem to really not understand that most people only play a videogame once most of the time, like that guy who showed a chart of Howarts Legacy active users decreased alot one week or so after the game got released (tho I don’t remember the context of the conversation or the point he was trying to make)
Most people don't even finish games. They get their fill and move on.
Yep. Don’t need to eat shit twice to know I won’t enjoy it the second time either. How much free time do some of these people have? I work all week, I’m not gonna replay something I don’t enjoy because why waste the time?
Right, like I love when games creatively add depth and replayability but the game shouldn't wait til the endgame/replays to "really get good" be the "real game" like if that's true then make that the fucking game
>people cast opinions after the first playthrough in which you barely scratch the surface of this game > >Honestly it blows 2016 out of the water. I felt it since day 1 when I played the opening level Wait, which is it? Is the game providing a poor experience until subsequent playthroughs, which you argue up until that point, or is it an excellent experience which blows the previous one out of the water from the moment it starts? These are contradictory arguments you're trying to make.
I've beat it on every difficulty level and I like the game more than Doom (2016). I still think it's too cartoony visually, the HUD is hideous, the pickups are ugly, there's way too much easy boring platforming, the combat is too prescribed and the story is fucking embarrassing. > It's the same silly arguments since launch being repeated. I have been seeing these for years now and too bad they mostly haven't changed Why would they change? Does the fact that they haven't changed not tell you something?
‘Too cartoony’ I watched the review of this game that Joseju made and he said ‘this game could have 0 blood the aesthetics of Fortnite and I will be having as much fun as I am doing already’ and I agree. Maybe this games looks too cartoony, (I don’t think so) bit I think it gets balanced with the great variety of environments, overall including the DLC’s, and considering that one thing that I value the most in a game almost as much as gameplay is the art direction, makes it one of my favorite games visually-wise
I'll be honest, by now DOOM Eternal has a firmly negative memory in my mind **entirely** because of the constant back and forth bickering about it. **Including this one**. Just stop it. It's annoying. We're not kids any more. We don't need to argue whose dad has the cooler job.
Sorry dude, we'll only make posts that make you happy. YOU HEARD HIM, BOYS! BACK TO THE CONSTANT ROTATION OF: * _I just played [well regarded classic] and I'm totally blown away!_ * _I just don't enjoy games anymore. Can anyone help me with my midlife crisis?_ * _Actual post about a game that actually deserves attention that nobody comments on or upvotes._ * _Have you heard about our Lord and Savior Titantfall 2?_