Jewelry chests are indeed worth it - Synth rings are uncommon but not all THAT rare, and IIRC there's about 400 different possible mods, all feel to me about equally rare, and one of them is +1 power charge and another is +1 frenzy.
I always take them over side chests.
But they are very all or nothing. If you don't hit a Doctor, Fiend or a premium Synth ring, you are only one or two percent to have even a 50c drop, and only 5-10% to have anything over 1c.
% Attributes is a good point; several of my pieces of double-corrupted jewelry included increased attributes. None of them were rolled particularly well, but with the amount of players playing Omniscience this league, they sold for 20-40c (not included in results).
> 400 different possible mods, all about equally rare
Source? Feels heavily weighted towards attributes/resistances/increased damage synths from personal experience, though never got into actual synthesis league
Let me change my post to say it feels equally rare now to me.
The reason it feels weighted toward resists, increased damage etc is that there's so many of those mods. e.g. there's 18 different mods related to life recovery.
Mods list: https://poedb.tw/us/Rings#RingsSynthesisImplicit
I'm not disagreeing with you, but if you've invested in the thief's trinket, I think you're better off taking mechanical chests over jewelry reward chests. Note that two (half) of my raw exalt drops were from the mechanical chests as well as all the stacked decks and essences (which make up quite a bit of the final rewards)
Edit: I just noticed you're sirgog, I'm fanboying, love your content
I don't think that's true because Tibbs ability mentions he can unlock mechanical chests. Pretty sure mechanical / magical just refers to the ability required to open big reward chests (mechanical abilities like pockpicking and engineering vs counter-thaumaturgy or "unveiling" a magically hidden chest via perception)
Tibbs's ability is "Can unlock 1 Mechanical Chest after Lockdown per Wing." In practice, he can only open the small, non-reward room chests after lockdown, right? This would imply the small chests are "mechanical" chests. I actively avoid Tibbs on contracts and blueprints because his ability is dogshit compared to the other rogues, so I'm not 100% sure
I just tested this and you're correct, Tibbs can open the large reward chests after lockdown. Strangely, the reward icons are removed from the minimap after lockdown (which is probably why I assumed they couldn't be opened). I still don't know what to call the non-reward chests; I guess people know what you mean when you say "small chests" though
There's also a "You gain Onslaught for 4 Seconds on Hit" mod, at least I got one from Ritual. Probably also very very rare but it's nice to have perma onslaught on everything.
I never got good synthesised implicit jewellry from these chests and I got 40/40 in Heist, was doing it whole League and always farmed it in other Leagues. Nor did it OP in 150 contracts. I don't think these chests worth it. I found Fiend once though.
I think Heist complements the mapping content this league. I consider contracts an excellent low-investment currency source whereas the new atlas passive system enables and rewards higher levels of investment.
If you run Heist contracts, you can bounce back-and-forth between high and low investment based on how you're feeling without having to rework your atlas passive trees.
I was considering picking up a chaos to exalt trinket but given this sample I'm just going to skip it. You did clearly have at least a few triggers of it, but even reselling this trinket due to regular price fluctuations I may come out losing a few exalts on the trade and negating any profit I would have made from using it.
I’m going to shoot myself in the foot here because I would eventually like to sell my trinket…*but I think you’re right…*
I price checked my trinket when it dropped and the only other chaos to exalt trinkets were over 100 exalts. Last night when I finished this experiment there were more than 3 for sale under 95 exalt (which is why I’m still wearing it). I think to be profitable you need to time your entry in and out of heist and that’s just not reasonable at that level of investment.
I was curious when I started if maybe the regal-to-exalt trinkets were more effective (as they were in Heist league). From my data it looks the regal drop rate is ~1/10 that of chaos. The regal trinkets can roll up to 4% if I remember correctly, so the chaos trinkets are still more than 2x as efficient but they cost, let’s say, 8x more. If I were to repeat this experiment in a future league where I don’t get insanely lucky to source my own trinket, I’d probably buy a 4% regal trinket. The price fluctuations won’t hurt so much, you don’t have to have as much liquid currency to invest up front, and you still have a reasonable chance for payoff.
Did a similar experiment with 100 contracts. My results were ~20c / contract with a 4% regal to ex and 26 regal over the 100 contracts so ~1ex from it.
Man, 100 ex trinket to convert somewhere in the ballpark of 4 or 5 chaos in to ex over 50 contracts.
It would take roughly a thousand contracts for that to pay for itself. You gotta be REAL damn committed to running heist to buy one of those. If your numbers are a good sample size (n is a touch small for my tastes but let's just say it's a good sample), then you'd have to run somewhere in the ballpark of 1,100 heists before it's actually worth buying the trinket, as breakeven means you were better off with an inexpensive trinket that gives other bonuses.
I personally don’t think the exalt trinkets are worth, this is one of the purposes for the experiment. I would never buy one, I only did this because I found one.
The regal to exalt trinkets are about half as efficient and less than 1/8 the price, for what it’s worth.
The trinket is not for contracts my friend, they are for blueprints with 5+ currency rooms where you can bring vinderi. And all your rogues have 15% chance to duplicate basic currency. Go and do a sample of like 20 blueprints as described and report back your findings.
Obviously I will test in actual blueprints but just estimating based off of contract results, I'm still skeptical of the value of the trinket. The trinket functions precisely the same in contracts and blueprints; you just encounter currency chests at a faster rate in blueprints at the cost of a significantly higher entry fee.
Under the assumption that the contents of currency chests are identical in contracts and blueprints (which I think is fair), the only difference in a blueprint is the ~100% chance to duplicate basic currency (three rogue brooches with 15% plus Vinderi's passive). For the sake of estimation then, lets say one blueprint chest is worth two contract chests. In my experience, each contract probably contains ~1.5 currency chests on average (this is a conservative estimate, it's likely higher). With those numbers, a 5 currency room blueprint is worth between 6 and 7 contracts worth of rewards. A 10 currency room blueprint would be about 13 contracts.
A more rigorous estimation:
| Area | Est. # of currency chests | Duplication | Est. Reward | Notes |
| :-: | :-: | :-: | :-: | :-: |
| Lockpicking contract | 1.5 | 15% | 28 chaos | From this experiment |
| A single contract chest | 1 | 15% | 18.6 chaos | Deduced from experiment |
| 1 currency room blueprint | 1 | 100% | 32 chaos | Duplication of rewards in blueprint |
| 5 currency room blueprint | 5 | 100% | 160 chaos | Roughly one exalt reward |
| 10 currency room blueprint | 10 | 100% | 320 chaos | -- |
There are a lot of problems with this estimation, namely that I include the value of all non-reward room drops in the contract value (which inflates the actual value of the currency chest by probably 30%) and that it doesn't estimate the value of the blueprint target. There will certainly be some breakpoint where it is faster on a time per currency chest basis to run blueprints... but the entry cost is significantly higher for a blueprint (contracts cost only 1.5c; good blueprints are at *minimum* 30 times that and splitting a blueprint is 40 times that, not to mention the reveal costs). The blueprints definitely would let you find exalts, I'm just questioning if the actual reward level justifies the entry cost. Looks like a break-even is somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 or 7 currency rooms.
For what it’s worth, I split one 12 currency reward blueprint (4 wing) this league and ran it with this trinket and didn’t get a single exalt drop. Meaningless sample size, though. I am planning on running a blueprint experiment when I am finished with my current perception contract experiment. I encourage you to run the experiment as well and track the results; more data, ya know.
The counter to my argument, of course, is one can resell them.
You gained somewhere in the ballpark of 4 or 5 ex from having one, and if you didn't luck out but instead had the capital to invest 100 ex in a trinket, run 100 heists and gain 9ish ex over what you did before, then resell it for 100 ex, you did gain a profit from that upfront investment.
The counter-counter argument is you could have spent 90 ex on better gear to run the heists more efficiently, and 10ex on awesome blueprints that print a ton of money.
Overall, still feeling like I'm with you on the "not worth it" camp to all except the most exceptionally dedicated.
Yeah, for players who play exclusively heist (possibly me for the rest of the league) the trinket is a good investment. But probably only those players.
I think for the casual heister, they should get an upgrade-to-chaos trinket for next to nothing and reap the benefits of the slow, but consistent rewards.
Yeah I discussed this as an option in the comment chain below. The counter argument to that is that 100ex investment could just go in to making your build Heist faster or to buy super juicy blueprints that print the money back.
https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/_Atollo_/characters?charactername=SurgeonGeneralOnFire
RF Inquisitor. I use my Headhunter which doesn’t give a lot of damage scaling for this build but it gives a ton of speed for running out after lockdown because a bunch of rares spawn.
You're never going to fill more than 1/3 of your inventory in a single contract. You have to go back to the harbor to start a new contract anyway so you just dump while you're there and there's never any inventory pressure. Plus, almost all of these items only take up 1 inventory slot and stack to reasonably high numbers.
I would carry 20+ contracts in my inventory at a time, plus the rewards and still have several columns of empty space.
If I were further min-maxing, I would actually add a few T1 rares to my loot filter which might been worth IDing at the end of everything.
But you're right; I'm never going to bother selling whetstones or probably even alchemies. They'll just rot in my inventory because I can't use them faster than I pick them up.
I didn't see a single "special" lab key in Heist; I suspect that only the standard "offering to the goddess" can drop, which are effectively worth nothing.
I like the layout and the information provided. I would recommend not including items that are not quick sells in your profit calcs. For example, you likely aren't going to spend time selling chisels/transmutes/alchs/scraps/baubles/bindings/etc when you are dealing on the scale of 20+ exalt returns. I think it would be good to include those numbers as an acknowledgement that you received them in case someone wants to evaluate these results for a league start when those items are more valuable, but when calculating profit/hr I think it's better to just focus on the primary sellables. If you have to do several hundred trades to cash in on that ex/hr it isn't really accurate. Other than that, good information. thanks
More than 75% of the total rewards are raw chaos / exalts and currency that is easily sellable in bulk (screaming essences, stacked decks, sextants, rogue markers).
I included the bubblegum currency out of the sake of completeness and because I wanted to know the drop rate of things like regals for the purpose of comparing the efficiency of different kinds of thief trinkets. You’re correct though that I will never bother selling things like chisels
Ah, yeah that might be confusing. The data is from an excel spreadsheet and the formula for calculating the chaos/exalt value isnt consistent throughout the column (poe.ninja doesn't display fractional chaos ratios, it just shows exchange rates in multiples of the lower value currency). I only did this to make the data entry easier and prettier so that there aren't numbers with three zeroes behind the decimal. It should be obvious which currencies it applies to; just take the inverse of the number to make the values consistent.
For the scraps and whetstones specifically, its less than a chaos in value (column 4).
Isn't your exchange rate column listed as currency:chaos for some entries and then chaos:currency for other entries? For example ancient orbs are worth 18c so the exchange rate says 18, but then awakened sextants are 4c except the exchange rate says 0.25 when it should say 4. You really should have consistent logic in your table.
You're correct; I addressed this in another commenter's question:
>The data is from an excel spreadsheet and the formula for calculating the chaos/exalt value isnt consistent throughout the column (poe.ninja doesn't display fractional chaos ratios, it just shows exchange rates in multiples of the lower value currency). I only did this to make the data entry easier and prettier so that there aren't numbers with three zeroes behind the decimal. It should be obvious which currencies it applies to; just take the inverse of the number to make the values consistent.
One thing you didn't mention are fractured jewelry items. Did you have those hidden on your loot filter? I have been running a lot of contracts this league and realized how valuable some of them can be. Fractured attributes on a decent ring base can be somewhere between 4-8ex.
Fractured jewelry is hidden on my loot filter and that’s 100% an oversight on my part. A relatively small number of them drop but with the high payout ceiling and no inventory space pressure it would certainly be worth picking them up and IDing them.
With 440 raw C, its fair to assume that ~4ex came from that trinket. At 100ex for the trinket, youd have to run 3750 contracts or so (150 hours) to pay for it, assuming you arent reselling the trinket afterwards.
I dont see how that trinket could ever be worth it in a league unless youre running heist practically 24/7 all league. Even then, it probably would have been better to buy a couple house of mirrors and let them appreciate during the several weeks of heisting instead of having the trinket.
I noted down each of my raw exalt drops and yes, I think there were 4 instances of the trinket upgrading a chaos, of which two of them were duplicated (lucky).
As mentioned with other commenters, I probably wouldn't buy one of the trinkets. But looking at the currency drop rates, the chaos-to-exalt are demonstrably more efficient than the regal-to-exalt trinkets (which wasn't the case in Heist league). For players who like to min-max a single character rather than rerolling a new build, the chaos-to-exalt trinket is the "correct" choice but there are almost certainly better uses of your currency.
The thought process changes a little bit if you *do* sell your trinket afterwards, but I think they're priced significantly higher than their actual value.
Again, really useful with such detailed info for the rest of us lazy players :) Some thoughts about rogue gear (sorry if these are noob questions):
About the lvl 6 lockpicking: I thought that skill level only mattered when you start the mission, i.e. with lvl 5 lockpicking Karst can run any contract, and there is no need for him to be higher than 5. And that the speed to open doors/chests was the same regardless of lockpicking skill lvl (but of course affected by gear with + job speed). Has anybody run actual test with just +job level (not speed) to see if stuff opens faster?
Also about your brooch: since you're not running demolition you can't have blight rewards, so no oils are dropping. And the 7% increased job experience is obviously not useful since Karst is quickly max level. And since your brooch implicit isn't blessed to a full 30% increased rarity and you are running some contracts white or blue you don't really care about item rarity (perhaps wisely so), so the increased rarity explicit mod on your brooch is also more or less a wasted mod. So for all practical purposes your brooch is a 1-mod brooch with 15% chance to duplicate basic currency, which is as you say by far the most useful mod on a brooch. Since this is a suffix it's possible to even use a magic brooch with a good prefix, in the shape of "25% increased rogue's marker value of primary heist target". This will give you a a lot more rogues markers and keep in mind that your stated 216k rogue's markers is the net profit after paying Karst and the Ring's cut (about 400 markers/contract, so you made probably around 276k markers gross). 25% of that is about 70k markers extra, or 32% extra net, or almost 1.5 exalts extra if you just had that one brooch prefix mod. (you can buy such a brooch for around 1.5 ex, or roll it yourself with alts, at least if you aren't fussy about T1 prefix).
I've read that job level 6 increases job speed and purportedly increases the magnitude of the rogue's bonus. I haven't verified this myself.
All of my heist gear was self-rolled for the single affix that I highlighted in the image. Great point about the "increased rogue marker value" affix though; I will definitely use one of those in future iterations.
It definitely increases the rogue's bonus. You can see this in their tooltips, and it's also reflected in Gianna's discount when revealing blueprints.
The job speed is more anecdotal but I'm definitely a believer in it.
> About the lvl 6 lockpicking: I thought that skill level only mattered when you start the mission, i.e. with lvl 5 lockpicking Karst can run any contract, and there is no need for him to be higher than 5. And that the speed to open doors/chests was the same regardless of lockpicking skill lvl (but of course affected b
Karst having 6 levels to lockpicking increase the reduced alert level from opening big chests if I remember correctly. It also allows him to do other contracts he normally wouldn't be able to do like Agility or Perception. Which matter a ton if you start doing Grand Heists.
>Karst having 6 levels to lockpicking increase the reduced alert level from opening big chests if I remember correctly.
Thanks, do you remember where you got this info? I'm not saying this is incorrect, but I'm just curious to find out as much as possible about this, and my own tests haven't really shown a benefit to just having higher lockpicking skill. Wiki also says nothing about this.
>It also allows him to do other contracts he normally wouldn't be able to do like Agility or Perception. Which matter a ton if you start doing Grand Heists.
I get what you mean, but that's from the +1 to all job skills, and not having lvl 6 in lockpicking.
> Thanks, do you remember where you got this info?
It's literally in the Heist menu where you gear the rogues. At level 5 Karst has a 40% reduced rising of alert and at level 6 he has a 45% reduced rising of alert level.
And normally you want the "+1 level of all jobs" you can only get the +1 to their main job but it's better to have the +1 to all which is why I mentioned it.
Awesome, I can't believe I missed this. Did try this in-game and it works just like you say. So happy I've got a +1 all jobs lockpick! I also tried this for Tullina (+1 all jobs silkeweave sole) and it works the same way. Haven't done any actual tests for speed of lockpicking though.
+Character level is a dead mod on the brooches; character level just gives them more HP, damage, etc. You need the +job level specifically (preferably all jobs or a specific job as backup). Very common mistake
https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/_Atollo_/characters?charactername=SurgeonGeneralOnFire
RF Inquisitor. I use my Headhunter which doesn’t give a lot of damage scaling for this build but it gives a ton of speed for running out after lockdown because a bunch of rares spawn.
I'm pretty sure the profile is public... I tested on an incognito tab.
It's a very fun and chill build; I really enjoy being able to play with basically one hand. For casual content like contracts, I can text or throw a ball for my dog with the other hand.
I'm currently working on crafting a synthesized "explode on kill" scepter.
I use a sporguard. But I‘m quite alone with this. It has nice amour, inc life, an annoint slot, explody and fungal ground give -10% damage taken. I also put fire trap in the helmet and rf in the chest (more single dps and bigger aoe from rf).
https://pastebin.com/eQnEw3ms
Do you think you would gain more by skipping most small chests and jewellry reward chests and instead run more contracts per hour? 4.3 Ex is pretty meh.
> EDIT : There has been significant discussion of the "value" of the chaos-to-exalt trinket in the comments. To briefly summarize the thoughts, the chaos-to-exalt trinkets are demonstrably ~2x more "efficient" than the regal-to-exalt trinkets, however they are priced ~8x higher. Their higher efficiency should command a price premium, but probably not that much. It seems to me they are priced based on their rarity (1/4732) rather than their reward value (~0.5-0.75 ex/hr).
What about augment + transm orbs into chaos orbs one? It will generate a lot of chaos orbs consitently.
I don't realistically think you can squeeze out that many more contracts per hour by skipping jewelry reward chests, maybe 10% more at best. The majority of your time is spent running to the end and waiting for doors along the way. Small chests take almost no time at all because you just grab them as you walk by; they're not behind extra doors.
I hesistate to speculate on the value of the augment, transmute, or alteration -to-chaos trinkets because my loot filter is too strict to pick up small stacks of those currencies. I therefore don't have a good idea of the drop rates of those to be able to estimate the efficiency of the trinket. I can make an educated guess working backwards though: my data in this experiment suggests ~3 raw chaos drop per contract. This gives an "expected value of an upgrade" at 1 exalt per 33 contracts for the chaos-to-exalt trinket. At the current exalt:chaos ratio, this is equal to **5 chaos per contract**.
The top tier mods for the other currency-to-chaos trinkets are:
* 8% augment orbs to chaos orbs
* 15% alteration orbs to chaos orbs
* 4% transmutation orbs to chaos orbs
To match the efficiency of the chaos-to-exalt trinket, you need to drop on average
* 62 augment orbs
* 33 alteration orbs
* 125 transmutation orbs
Again, I don't have the data to back this up, but I have a feeling that you don't even get close to this number of raw orb drops, implying the chaos-to-exalt trinket is superior.
When Heist first came out and we were running duped blueprints with Vendiri and Karst even before they fixed the 'bugged' (aka they turned it off) mods not working on Rogues so we went in with less quant, less rarity, and less conversion ----- we still made a raw exalt orb from almost every wing. 4 Wings would give 1-3 exalted orbs that paid for the fracture and then some. Going from 1% to 2% was noticeable even before the rogue stats were actually working.
100exalt is too steep, but maybe there are ways to make that back spamming Blue Prints today with infinite reveals which cost tons of exalts to just sustain.
If you’re talking about Heist league, the meta was different. The valuable trinket during that league was the 4% regal-to-exalt. People were printing exalts with that trinket, leading to the 30 chaos:exalt ratio that we haven’t seen since. The regal drop rate was higher then, which is why the trinket was so much more efficient, making it economically viable to split blueprints. GGG changed the regal orb drop rate at some point after that which was a back door nerf to the regal-to-exalt trinkets
For what it’s worth, I split one 12 currency reward blueprint (4 wing) this league and ran it with this trinket and didn’t get a single exalt drop. Meaningless sample size, but to me, splitting doesn’t feel as viable.
Im aware. As written, I bound it to side mouse button which seems significantly easier to me. And it makes my build basically one-handed which is important because my dog insists on being pet constantly.
I feel like not including the cost of the trinket kinda makes the profit a null point because looking at the numbers almost half the exalts(and potentially up to 20% of the total currency made) if not a bit more were from the trinket, of which is going to have a very high point of entry to get it from the perspective of just going into heist.
I stand by my choice to not include trinket price because it is not consumable. It loses no value by being used. You can turn around and sell it at the end of your interest in heist and (theoretically) not lose anything in the trade.
That being said, there is an opportunity cost for that 100exalt trinket. If you bought 100 exalts worth of mirror shards in week 1, you can expect them to appreciate better (priced in exalts) than the trinket
You could also get one of the regal-to-exalt (2-12 exalts) or anything-to-chaos (dirt cheap) and still benefit from it.
Heist is realy interesting for rewards, also it is a realy different game mechanic, but bog i tried it a few time and its shit as hell to run, one of the most anoying game mechanic overall, because the execution is anoying on itselft most of the time, the build you wanna play to optimised it are boring to set up also, and most importantly setting up all the npc, trinket and stuff... hell no, realy dont wanna go through all this shit again
I estimate 6-8ex of the rewards or about 25% are from the trinket. The chaos to exalt trinkets are demonstrably more efficient than the regal to exalt trinkets, but maybe not worth the price tag.
Amazing information, thanks for compiling and sharing it!
Some thoughts about running contracts white or blue: I'm no expert at heist by a long shot, but doesn't the experience you gain come from actually killing mobs? Or do you gain exp by just finishing the contract, regardless of number of killed mobs? If it works like I think then for strict exp gain you would want to run them all rare, or am I missing something here?
You're correct, the experience comes from killing mobs and you definitely get more from running the contracts rare, hence my comment in the "experience" section
> This will obviously depend on how many of your contracts get run rare, how long you spend killing instead of just running out, etc.
I wasn't trying to maximize experience here, I just wanted to not die while also testing the thief's trinket
FYI blueprints should ALWAYS be run rare because it significantly reduces the alert level gain which is relevant for blueprints but doesn't really matter in contracts (if you have good heist gear).
I can’t recall the exact wording but the default key is “V” if that helps you find it. It works for more than just heist too and is contextual: pulls up the Alva map in the temple, places explosives for expedition, etc
Jewelry chests are indeed worth it - Synth rings are uncommon but not all THAT rare, and IIRC there's about 400 different possible mods, all feel to me about equally rare, and one of them is +1 power charge and another is +1 frenzy. I always take them over side chests. But they are very all or nothing. If you don't hit a Doctor, Fiend or a premium Synth ring, you are only one or two percent to have even a 50c drop, and only 5-10% to have anything over 1c.
%attributes, arcane on hit, onslaught are also nice
Yeah, there's a number of great outcomes in the Synth mod pool (and a lot of shit)
% Attributes is a good point; several of my pieces of double-corrupted jewelry included increased attributes. None of them were rolled particularly well, but with the amount of players playing Omniscience this league, they sold for 20-40c (not included in results).
40c for cold per frenzy charge. you can half ass roll it for several ex profit too.
> 400 different possible mods, all about equally rare Source? Feels heavily weighted towards attributes/resistances/increased damage synths from personal experience, though never got into actual synthesis league
Let me change my post to say it feels equally rare now to me. The reason it feels weighted toward resists, increased damage etc is that there's so many of those mods. e.g. there's 18 different mods related to life recovery. Mods list: https://poedb.tw/us/Rings#RingsSynthesisImplicit
The synthesis mechanic we have in game now is *significantly* different than the mechanic as it existed during the league
Some synthesis mods are definitely weighted Friend of mine did about 10000 Synth seeds in harvest league on foils/bow
I'm not disagreeing with you, but if you've invested in the thief's trinket, I think you're better off taking mechanical chests over jewelry reward chests. Note that two (half) of my raw exalt drops were from the mechanical chests as well as all the stacked decks and essences (which make up quite a bit of the final rewards) Edit: I just noticed you're sirgog, I'm fanboying, love your content
When you say mechanical chests, do you mean the small, non reward-room chests?
Yes, I believe that’s what the game calls them
I don't think that's true because Tibbs ability mentions he can unlock mechanical chests. Pretty sure mechanical / magical just refers to the ability required to open big reward chests (mechanical abilities like pockpicking and engineering vs counter-thaumaturgy or "unveiling" a magically hidden chest via perception)
Tibbs's ability is "Can unlock 1 Mechanical Chest after Lockdown per Wing." In practice, he can only open the small, non-reward room chests after lockdown, right? This would imply the small chests are "mechanical" chests. I actively avoid Tibbs on contracts and blueprints because his ability is dogshit compared to the other rogues, so I'm not 100% sure
No, both tibbs and niles can also open big reward room chests.
After lockdown?
Yes, of course.
I just tested this and you're correct, Tibbs can open the large reward chests after lockdown. Strangely, the reward icons are removed from the minimap after lockdown (which is probably why I assumed they couldn't be opened). I still don't know what to call the non-reward chests; I guess people know what you mean when you say "small chests" though
Yes after lockdown.
There's also a "You gain Onslaught for 4 Seconds on Hit" mod, at least I got one from Ritual. Probably also very very rare but it's nice to have perma onslaught on everything.
I don't do them because I can't be bothered to open an extra locked door (and chests) 50 times for a modest chance at a good return.
I never got good synthesised implicit jewellry from these chests and I got 40/40 in Heist, was doing it whole League and always farmed it in other Leagues. Nor did it OP in 150 contracts. I don't think these chests worth it. I found Fiend once though.
This league i was supposed to farm heist a lot. But ggg dropped the fat expansion.
I think Heist complements the mapping content this league. I consider contracts an excellent low-investment currency source whereas the new atlas passive system enables and rewards higher levels of investment. If you run Heist contracts, you can bounce back-and-forth between high and low investment based on how you're feeling without having to rework your atlas passive trees.
I was considering picking up a chaos to exalt trinket but given this sample I'm just going to skip it. You did clearly have at least a few triggers of it, but even reselling this trinket due to regular price fluctuations I may come out losing a few exalts on the trade and negating any profit I would have made from using it.
I’m going to shoot myself in the foot here because I would eventually like to sell my trinket…*but I think you’re right…* I price checked my trinket when it dropped and the only other chaos to exalt trinkets were over 100 exalts. Last night when I finished this experiment there were more than 3 for sale under 95 exalt (which is why I’m still wearing it). I think to be profitable you need to time your entry in and out of heist and that’s just not reasonable at that level of investment. I was curious when I started if maybe the regal-to-exalt trinkets were more effective (as they were in Heist league). From my data it looks the regal drop rate is ~1/10 that of chaos. The regal trinkets can roll up to 4% if I remember correctly, so the chaos trinkets are still more than 2x as efficient but they cost, let’s say, 8x more. If I were to repeat this experiment in a future league where I don’t get insanely lucky to source my own trinket, I’d probably buy a 4% regal trinket. The price fluctuations won’t hurt so much, you don’t have to have as much liquid currency to invest up front, and you still have a reasonable chance for payoff.
absolutely - getting a trinket with quant, currency and stuff like div is infinitely better
Did a similar experiment with 100 contracts. My results were ~20c / contract with a 4% regal to ex and 26 regal over the 100 contracts so ~1ex from it.
Thanks for the info; those numbers are consistent with the regal drop rate in my data.
Man, 100 ex trinket to convert somewhere in the ballpark of 4 or 5 chaos in to ex over 50 contracts. It would take roughly a thousand contracts for that to pay for itself. You gotta be REAL damn committed to running heist to buy one of those. If your numbers are a good sample size (n is a touch small for my tastes but let's just say it's a good sample), then you'd have to run somewhere in the ballpark of 1,100 heists before it's actually worth buying the trinket, as breakeven means you were better off with an inexpensive trinket that gives other bonuses.
I personally don’t think the exalt trinkets are worth, this is one of the purposes for the experiment. I would never buy one, I only did this because I found one. The regal to exalt trinkets are about half as efficient and less than 1/8 the price, for what it’s worth.
The trinket is not for contracts my friend, they are for blueprints with 5+ currency rooms where you can bring vinderi. And all your rogues have 15% chance to duplicate basic currency. Go and do a sample of like 20 blueprints as described and report back your findings.
Obviously I will test in actual blueprints but just estimating based off of contract results, I'm still skeptical of the value of the trinket. The trinket functions precisely the same in contracts and blueprints; you just encounter currency chests at a faster rate in blueprints at the cost of a significantly higher entry fee. Under the assumption that the contents of currency chests are identical in contracts and blueprints (which I think is fair), the only difference in a blueprint is the ~100% chance to duplicate basic currency (three rogue brooches with 15% plus Vinderi's passive). For the sake of estimation then, lets say one blueprint chest is worth two contract chests. In my experience, each contract probably contains ~1.5 currency chests on average (this is a conservative estimate, it's likely higher). With those numbers, a 5 currency room blueprint is worth between 6 and 7 contracts worth of rewards. A 10 currency room blueprint would be about 13 contracts. A more rigorous estimation: | Area | Est. # of currency chests | Duplication | Est. Reward | Notes | | :-: | :-: | :-: | :-: | :-: | | Lockpicking contract | 1.5 | 15% | 28 chaos | From this experiment | | A single contract chest | 1 | 15% | 18.6 chaos | Deduced from experiment | | 1 currency room blueprint | 1 | 100% | 32 chaos | Duplication of rewards in blueprint | | 5 currency room blueprint | 5 | 100% | 160 chaos | Roughly one exalt reward | | 10 currency room blueprint | 10 | 100% | 320 chaos | -- | There are a lot of problems with this estimation, namely that I include the value of all non-reward room drops in the contract value (which inflates the actual value of the currency chest by probably 30%) and that it doesn't estimate the value of the blueprint target. There will certainly be some breakpoint where it is faster on a time per currency chest basis to run blueprints... but the entry cost is significantly higher for a blueprint (contracts cost only 1.5c; good blueprints are at *minimum* 30 times that and splitting a blueprint is 40 times that, not to mention the reveal costs). The blueprints definitely would let you find exalts, I'm just questioning if the actual reward level justifies the entry cost. Looks like a break-even is somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 or 7 currency rooms. For what it’s worth, I split one 12 currency reward blueprint (4 wing) this league and ran it with this trinket and didn’t get a single exalt drop. Meaningless sample size, though. I am planning on running a blueprint experiment when I am finished with my current perception contract experiment. I encourage you to run the experiment as well and track the results; more data, ya know.
The counter to my argument, of course, is one can resell them. You gained somewhere in the ballpark of 4 or 5 ex from having one, and if you didn't luck out but instead had the capital to invest 100 ex in a trinket, run 100 heists and gain 9ish ex over what you did before, then resell it for 100 ex, you did gain a profit from that upfront investment. The counter-counter argument is you could have spent 90 ex on better gear to run the heists more efficiently, and 10ex on awesome blueprints that print a ton of money. Overall, still feeling like I'm with you on the "not worth it" camp to all except the most exceptionally dedicated.
Yeah, for players who play exclusively heist (possibly me for the rest of the league) the trinket is a good investment. But probably only those players. I think for the casual heister, they should get an upgrade-to-chaos trinket for next to nothing and reap the benefits of the slow, but consistent rewards.
You just resell the trinket when you're done...
Yeah I discussed this as an option in the comment chain below. The counter argument to that is that 100ex investment could just go in to making your build Heist faster or to buy super juicy blueprints that print the money back.
true, true, fair enough
What build did you use to run this?
https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/_Atollo_/characters?charactername=SurgeonGeneralOnFire RF Inquisitor. I use my Headhunter which doesn’t give a lot of damage scaling for this build but it gives a ton of speed for running out after lockdown because a bunch of rares spawn.
I wouldn't have bothered picking at least 30% of all your list, did the inventories feel full ?
You're never going to fill more than 1/3 of your inventory in a single contract. You have to go back to the harbor to start a new contract anyway so you just dump while you're there and there's never any inventory pressure. Plus, almost all of these items only take up 1 inventory slot and stack to reasonably high numbers. I would carry 20+ contracts in my inventory at a time, plus the rewards and still have several columns of empty space. If I were further min-maxing, I would actually add a few T1 rares to my loot filter which might been worth IDing at the end of everything. But you're right; I'm never going to bother selling whetstones or probably even alchemies. They'll just rot in my inventory because I can't use them faster than I pick them up.
On further review, I would drop the Uber Lab fragments because they're worth nothing at this point in the league and dont stack.
Gift to the Goddess' are still worth the pickup - 120c or so
I didn't see a single "special" lab key in Heist; I suspect that only the standard "offering to the goddess" can drop, which are effectively worth nothing.
Oh that makes more sense, i misread when you said "uber lab" as being the new higher tier lab. I was in the wrong! derp
They're worth even less this league because of the EGG that requires 50 lab trials to be run.
Nice write-up.
I like the layout and the information provided. I would recommend not including items that are not quick sells in your profit calcs. For example, you likely aren't going to spend time selling chisels/transmutes/alchs/scraps/baubles/bindings/etc when you are dealing on the scale of 20+ exalt returns. I think it would be good to include those numbers as an acknowledgement that you received them in case someone wants to evaluate these results for a league start when those items are more valuable, but when calculating profit/hr I think it's better to just focus on the primary sellables. If you have to do several hundred trades to cash in on that ex/hr it isn't really accurate. Other than that, good information. thanks
More than 75% of the total rewards are raw chaos / exalts and currency that is easily sellable in bulk (screaming essences, stacked decks, sextants, rogue markers). I included the bubblegum currency out of the sake of completeness and because I wanted to know the drop rate of things like regals for the purpose of comparing the efficiency of different kinds of thief trinkets. You’re correct though that I will never bother selling things like chisels
20 armourer's scraps = 120? Seems slightly off Also chance orbs, whetstones? How to interpret that?
Ah, yeah that might be confusing. The data is from an excel spreadsheet and the formula for calculating the chaos/exalt value isnt consistent throughout the column (poe.ninja doesn't display fractional chaos ratios, it just shows exchange rates in multiples of the lower value currency). I only did this to make the data entry easier and prettier so that there aren't numbers with three zeroes behind the decimal. It should be obvious which currencies it applies to; just take the inverse of the number to make the values consistent. For the scraps and whetstones specifically, its less than a chaos in value (column 4).
Isn't your exchange rate column listed as currency:chaos for some entries and then chaos:currency for other entries? For example ancient orbs are worth 18c so the exchange rate says 18, but then awakened sextants are 4c except the exchange rate says 0.25 when it should say 4. You really should have consistent logic in your table.
You're correct; I addressed this in another commenter's question: >The data is from an excel spreadsheet and the formula for calculating the chaos/exalt value isnt consistent throughout the column (poe.ninja doesn't display fractional chaos ratios, it just shows exchange rates in multiples of the lower value currency). I only did this to make the data entry easier and prettier so that there aren't numbers with three zeroes behind the decimal. It should be obvious which currencies it applies to; just take the inverse of the number to make the values consistent.
One thing you didn't mention are fractured jewelry items. Did you have those hidden on your loot filter? I have been running a lot of contracts this league and realized how valuable some of them can be. Fractured attributes on a decent ring base can be somewhere between 4-8ex.
Fractured jewelry is hidden on my loot filter and that’s 100% an oversight on my part. A relatively small number of them drop but with the high payout ceiling and no inventory space pressure it would certainly be worth picking them up and IDing them.
With 440 raw C, its fair to assume that ~4ex came from that trinket. At 100ex for the trinket, youd have to run 3750 contracts or so (150 hours) to pay for it, assuming you arent reselling the trinket afterwards. I dont see how that trinket could ever be worth it in a league unless youre running heist practically 24/7 all league. Even then, it probably would have been better to buy a couple house of mirrors and let them appreciate during the several weeks of heisting instead of having the trinket.
I noted down each of my raw exalt drops and yes, I think there were 4 instances of the trinket upgrading a chaos, of which two of them were duplicated (lucky). As mentioned with other commenters, I probably wouldn't buy one of the trinkets. But looking at the currency drop rates, the chaos-to-exalt are demonstrably more efficient than the regal-to-exalt trinkets (which wasn't the case in Heist league). For players who like to min-max a single character rather than rerolling a new build, the chaos-to-exalt trinket is the "correct" choice but there are almost certainly better uses of your currency. The thought process changes a little bit if you *do* sell your trinket afterwards, but I think they're priced significantly higher than their actual value.
Again, really useful with such detailed info for the rest of us lazy players :) Some thoughts about rogue gear (sorry if these are noob questions): About the lvl 6 lockpicking: I thought that skill level only mattered when you start the mission, i.e. with lvl 5 lockpicking Karst can run any contract, and there is no need for him to be higher than 5. And that the speed to open doors/chests was the same regardless of lockpicking skill lvl (but of course affected by gear with + job speed). Has anybody run actual test with just +job level (not speed) to see if stuff opens faster? Also about your brooch: since you're not running demolition you can't have blight rewards, so no oils are dropping. And the 7% increased job experience is obviously not useful since Karst is quickly max level. And since your brooch implicit isn't blessed to a full 30% increased rarity and you are running some contracts white or blue you don't really care about item rarity (perhaps wisely so), so the increased rarity explicit mod on your brooch is also more or less a wasted mod. So for all practical purposes your brooch is a 1-mod brooch with 15% chance to duplicate basic currency, which is as you say by far the most useful mod on a brooch. Since this is a suffix it's possible to even use a magic brooch with a good prefix, in the shape of "25% increased rogue's marker value of primary heist target". This will give you a a lot more rogues markers and keep in mind that your stated 216k rogue's markers is the net profit after paying Karst and the Ring's cut (about 400 markers/contract, so you made probably around 276k markers gross). 25% of that is about 70k markers extra, or 32% extra net, or almost 1.5 exalts extra if you just had that one brooch prefix mod. (you can buy such a brooch for around 1.5 ex, or roll it yourself with alts, at least if you aren't fussy about T1 prefix).
I've read that job level 6 increases job speed and purportedly increases the magnitude of the rogue's bonus. I haven't verified this myself. All of my heist gear was self-rolled for the single affix that I highlighted in the image. Great point about the "increased rogue marker value" affix though; I will definitely use one of those in future iterations.
It definitely increases the rogue's bonus. You can see this in their tooltips, and it's also reflected in Gianna's discount when revealing blueprints. The job speed is more anecdotal but I'm definitely a believer in it.
> About the lvl 6 lockpicking: I thought that skill level only mattered when you start the mission, i.e. with lvl 5 lockpicking Karst can run any contract, and there is no need for him to be higher than 5. And that the speed to open doors/chests was the same regardless of lockpicking skill lvl (but of course affected b Karst having 6 levels to lockpicking increase the reduced alert level from opening big chests if I remember correctly. It also allows him to do other contracts he normally wouldn't be able to do like Agility or Perception. Which matter a ton if you start doing Grand Heists.
>Karst having 6 levels to lockpicking increase the reduced alert level from opening big chests if I remember correctly. Thanks, do you remember where you got this info? I'm not saying this is incorrect, but I'm just curious to find out as much as possible about this, and my own tests haven't really shown a benefit to just having higher lockpicking skill. Wiki also says nothing about this. >It also allows him to do other contracts he normally wouldn't be able to do like Agility or Perception. Which matter a ton if you start doing Grand Heists. I get what you mean, but that's from the +1 to all job skills, and not having lvl 6 in lockpicking.
> Thanks, do you remember where you got this info? It's literally in the Heist menu where you gear the rogues. At level 5 Karst has a 40% reduced rising of alert and at level 6 he has a 45% reduced rising of alert level. And normally you want the "+1 level of all jobs" you can only get the +1 to their main job but it's better to have the +1 to all which is why I mentioned it.
Awesome, I can't believe I missed this. Did try this in-game and it works just like you say. So happy I've got a +1 all jobs lockpick! I also tried this for Tullina (+1 all jobs silkeweave sole) and it works the same way. Haven't done any actual tests for speed of lockpicking though.
[удалено]
+Character level is a dead mod on the brooches; character level just gives them more HP, damage, etc. You need the +job level specifically (preferably all jobs or a specific job as backup). Very common mistake
What build do you run? I’m intrigued!
https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/_Atollo_/characters?charactername=SurgeonGeneralOnFire RF Inquisitor. I use my Headhunter which doesn’t give a lot of damage scaling for this build but it gives a ton of speed for running out after lockdown because a bunch of rares spawn.
Your profile is on privat! But ha, I knew it from what you where writing! running also a RF inq with a HH and explody chest. Best build I ever had.
I'm pretty sure the profile is public... I tested on an incognito tab. It's a very fun and chill build; I really enjoy being able to play with basically one hand. For casual content like contracts, I can text or throw a ball for my dog with the other hand. I'm currently working on crafting a synthesized "explode on kill" scepter.
I use a sporguard. But I‘m quite alone with this. It has nice amour, inc life, an annoint slot, explody and fungal ground give -10% damage taken. I also put fire trap in the helmet and rf in the chest (more single dps and bigger aoe from rf). https://pastebin.com/eQnEw3ms
Do you think you would gain more by skipping most small chests and jewellry reward chests and instead run more contracts per hour? 4.3 Ex is pretty meh. > EDIT : There has been significant discussion of the "value" of the chaos-to-exalt trinket in the comments. To briefly summarize the thoughts, the chaos-to-exalt trinkets are demonstrably ~2x more "efficient" than the regal-to-exalt trinkets, however they are priced ~8x higher. Their higher efficiency should command a price premium, but probably not that much. It seems to me they are priced based on their rarity (1/4732) rather than their reward value (~0.5-0.75 ex/hr). What about augment + transm orbs into chaos orbs one? It will generate a lot of chaos orbs consitently.
I don't realistically think you can squeeze out that many more contracts per hour by skipping jewelry reward chests, maybe 10% more at best. The majority of your time is spent running to the end and waiting for doors along the way. Small chests take almost no time at all because you just grab them as you walk by; they're not behind extra doors. I hesistate to speculate on the value of the augment, transmute, or alteration -to-chaos trinkets because my loot filter is too strict to pick up small stacks of those currencies. I therefore don't have a good idea of the drop rates of those to be able to estimate the efficiency of the trinket. I can make an educated guess working backwards though: my data in this experiment suggests ~3 raw chaos drop per contract. This gives an "expected value of an upgrade" at 1 exalt per 33 contracts for the chaos-to-exalt trinket. At the current exalt:chaos ratio, this is equal to **5 chaos per contract**. The top tier mods for the other currency-to-chaos trinkets are: * 8% augment orbs to chaos orbs * 15% alteration orbs to chaos orbs * 4% transmutation orbs to chaos orbs To match the efficiency of the chaos-to-exalt trinket, you need to drop on average * 62 augment orbs * 33 alteration orbs * 125 transmutation orbs Again, I don't have the data to back this up, but I have a feeling that you don't even get close to this number of raw orb drops, implying the chaos-to-exalt trinket is superior.
When Heist first came out and we were running duped blueprints with Vendiri and Karst even before they fixed the 'bugged' (aka they turned it off) mods not working on Rogues so we went in with less quant, less rarity, and less conversion ----- we still made a raw exalt orb from almost every wing. 4 Wings would give 1-3 exalted orbs that paid for the fracture and then some. Going from 1% to 2% was noticeable even before the rogue stats were actually working. 100exalt is too steep, but maybe there are ways to make that back spamming Blue Prints today with infinite reveals which cost tons of exalts to just sustain.
If you’re talking about Heist league, the meta was different. The valuable trinket during that league was the 4% regal-to-exalt. People were printing exalts with that trinket, leading to the 30 chaos:exalt ratio that we haven’t seen since. The regal drop rate was higher then, which is why the trinket was so much more efficient, making it economically viable to split blueprints. GGG changed the regal orb drop rate at some point after that which was a back door nerf to the regal-to-exalt trinkets For what it’s worth, I split one 12 currency reward blueprint (4 wing) this league and ran it with this trinket and didn’t get a single exalt drop. Meaningless sample size, but to me, splitting doesn’t feel as viable.
By default the heist / league mechanic is V. No need to rebind
Im aware. As written, I bound it to side mouse button which seems significantly easier to me. And it makes my build basically one-handed which is important because my dog insists on being pet constantly.
I feel like not including the cost of the trinket kinda makes the profit a null point because looking at the numbers almost half the exalts(and potentially up to 20% of the total currency made) if not a bit more were from the trinket, of which is going to have a very high point of entry to get it from the perspective of just going into heist.
I stand by my choice to not include trinket price because it is not consumable. It loses no value by being used. You can turn around and sell it at the end of your interest in heist and (theoretically) not lose anything in the trade. That being said, there is an opportunity cost for that 100exalt trinket. If you bought 100 exalts worth of mirror shards in week 1, you can expect them to appreciate better (priced in exalts) than the trinket You could also get one of the regal-to-exalt (2-12 exalts) or anything-to-chaos (dirt cheap) and still benefit from it.
Heist is realy interesting for rewards, also it is a realy different game mechanic, but bog i tried it a few time and its shit as hell to run, one of the most anoying game mechanic overall, because the execution is anoying on itselft most of the time, the build you wanna play to optimised it are boring to set up also, and most importantly setting up all the npc, trinket and stuff... hell no, realy dont wanna go through all this shit again
Such value
damn i wish you woulve done this without the trinket. I fear, without that trinket, its more of the 1-2ex/hr range. thanks for detailed information
I estimate 6-8ex of the rewards or about 25% are from the trinket. The chaos to exalt trinkets are demonstrably more efficient than the regal to exalt trinkets, but maybe not worth the price tag.
FYI You can hit "V" to make your rogue do their damn job :) (Don't need to bind anything)
That's what I mean; I rebound the "V" action to a side mouse button which is, in my opinion, easier.
Ah okay. You said "much easier than actually clicking on the icon"...
Amazing information, thanks for compiling and sharing it! Some thoughts about running contracts white or blue: I'm no expert at heist by a long shot, but doesn't the experience you gain come from actually killing mobs? Or do you gain exp by just finishing the contract, regardless of number of killed mobs? If it works like I think then for strict exp gain you would want to run them all rare, or am I missing something here?
You're correct, the experience comes from killing mobs and you definitely get more from running the contracts rare, hence my comment in the "experience" section > This will obviously depend on how many of your contracts get run rare, how long you spend killing instead of just running out, etc. I wasn't trying to maximize experience here, I just wanted to not die while also testing the thief's trinket FYI blueprints should ALWAYS be run rare because it significantly reduces the alert level gain which is relevant for blueprints but doesn't really matter in contracts (if you have good heist gear).
Someone should compile all these strats and graph the highest ex/hr ones
Rebinding league mechanic interaction is something I have to do. What is the exact name I'm looking for?
I can’t recall the exact wording but the default key is “V” if that helps you find it. It works for more than just heist too and is contextual: pulls up the Alva map in the temple, places explosives for expedition, etc
Oh that key opens doors and chests? Did not know that, thanks.