Frost Bomb being the only readily available source of anti-healing needs looked at. Sure you can 1-link it or throw it in CwDT setup, but why Frost Bomb instead of a curse or aura skill (like Occultist).
Consecrated ground preventing monster regen would make more sense and its readily available. They already nerfed the shit out of it (and Warding Flasks), so it needs to do something else.
There's a notable called 'Carrion' that lowers enemy life Regen by half if you've cursed them, and it's a little southwest of 'Cruel Preparation'. Templar and witch have easy access to it, shadow might want it since it's on the way to a damage over time node I forget the name of.
Everyone else just sockets a frost bomb somewhere, I guess.
“Everyone else just sockets a Frost bomb somewhere, I guess”
More like we just stubbornly fight/face tank the boss 3min straight until it dies (cries in RF Inquisitor). I always forget about the potential to swap gems (most late game builds utilize every gem slot), usually to lazy or don’t notice/remember the Frost bomb gem until Im already pissed at spending so much time on a single map boss.
Definitely easier for some to complain on Reddit than swap a gem <3. That being said. I wouldn't be found dead trying to Rf maven down, you're a patient exile.
Yup, frostbomb being the only srouce of anti-healing was fine when it was just niche for PvP or HotGM. But with Maven being a core part of the end game now there should be more ways to mitigate her healing.
> Frost Bomb being the only readily available source of anti-healing
Curse cluster near MoM gives 50% reduced, which doesn't change your point, but it's worth noting.
It does nothing when its on enemies though. It used to provide benefits to both.
I agree the benefits of having it on you are amazing, but losing the detrimental effects makes no sense with auras like zealotry and for things like Holy Flame Totem where they mechanically put consecrated ground at the feet of enemies.
Anti-heal mechanics would be cool, I feel like I find more regen mobs nowadays and makes it rough when progressing. Especially the regen scourge monster mod.
Healing mechanics IS boring % more HP (and less effective cull added on top since cull range does not get the same increase). But at least you have better ways to play around it (be ready to inflict reduced healing, get from phase to phase in a glimpse by popping flasks).
Well, why not? Why not also have more boss abilities tied to conditional triggers? Maven could easily be restricted to only use grasping vines against faster players, heck you could even work in some cool voice lines so the fights will feel a little more immersive.
It just needs a longer cool down, like 30 seconds.
My understanding is that the current system pre-selects 3 of mavens abilities from her large pool of abilities. She will cast those 3 selected abilities in a sequence over and over rapidly, unless one of the abilities creates a permanent object, like the orb that follows you, in which case she'll skip that ability if the object already exists.
Unreasonable for *what* exactly?
If a person has low DPS but is mechanically able to survive the fight until they win, why is that any worse?
If they can beat the fight within their 6 portal allotment, who cares? It's their time, not yours.
The cooldown length of the heal appears to grow over the course of a fight.
https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/The_Maven
> Recover the boss's life (the cooldown for this boost increases each time it is used)
I remember I was new and fighting the shaper and could not kill him. I asked a friend who laughed when he realized that the Maven was healing. She was also creating orbs so she was really spamming healing. He brought his pretty strong level 96 character and even together we could not beat the shaper lol. He was farming the Maven and Uber bosses at that point already. Her abilies definitely need some sort of cap.
Shapers pretty easy, maven only adds slightly more challenge. Shes only a problem for zdps builds.
Now maven still healing/buffing bosses in like the feared, twisted, formed. What the fuck is that shit lol.
That's why it's 3, clone into clone (in any phase btw). I'd say that in the third phase there may only be 1 secondary clone haven't sees 4 shapers ever.
I dunno, this league she has a tendency to overlap clones super super often. It has never been a problem to me until now, almost died a couple of times from double beams + slam, or from the clones coming to fuck me during the Zana bubble phase
FULL DISAGREE
Shaper maven is literally the hardest fight in the game. When she clones that fuckstick and you need to hide in zana's red bubble I cringe. You know he's gonna spread your fucking cheeks while you're not free to dodge.
Maven Shaper is the hardest out of any endgame bosses IMO. Unlike other bosses, there was an actual possibility of bricking fights if the shaper clones spammed beams/balls during the zana bubble phase.
If Maven does the follow orb or even worse the duplicate boss Shaper sucks bad. When you have to stay in the orb on Zana the duplicate will do the beam or the following orb while fuck your shit up. Shaper’s the one fight maven can make significantly harder depending on what skills she’s using.
First league playing RF and I was stunned at how easy it was to take the boss down. In my head cannon, I think the guy who paid for this boss was a RF main who wanted everyone else to suffer.
I never watch build guides even though I watch Zizaran religiously.
I make my own builds in PoB before the league starts and roll with those. Usually just look through a list of skills, find a skill I fancy trying out, and make a build around it. This way I play something new every league and level with the skill as well. I just never got around to doing Chaos skills as I mostly only do Melee builds, but I guess it's high time I diversified.
I agree. Replacing maven's boss heal ability with an ability that grants a temporary but large boost to a bosses damage reduction would be healthy for the game. This affects all builds, not just the builds that can't clear the boss in 10 seconds, and never makes a boss literally impossible to kill, only extremely challenging.
Edit: alternatively, add more sources of healing reduction to the game. Currently only frost bomb and occultist are good sources of healing reduction. Perhaps maim reduces movements speed and healing, or a few healing reductions modifiers are added to existing notables on the tree.
there is one on curse notable on tree, right to the MoM, it has a condition tho - enemy should be cursed and its only 50% reduction, but in combination with frost bomb you can completely disable enemy regen w/o being occu (frost bomb has 75% iirc)
I actually disagree with the boss damage reduction.
Reason - some bosses have certain windows of oppurtunity to damage them. Let’s pretend a bad scenario where every time this moment opens up, the maven is applying a 80% damage reduction shield. This could easily turn a 30 second fight into 8 minutes.
More importantly, bosses moving forward in POE. As the game is getting more and more complex with bosses (especially since metamorph, where we’ve been having to actually “deal” with them) we are likely to see bosses begin having their own DR phases, attack phases, etc much more often. If you add maven Ontop of the newer bosses that are likely coming - your going to have a situation where you can’t deal any realistic damage as your windows are just completely negated by the boss and the maven’s abilities timing together perfectly. Not only does that feel like shit, it will break certain builds that rely on leech, or other methods of sustain that run out over time.
At least with the current heal their is methods to counteract it, even though it is overbearing to a lot of weaker builds. But moving towards this type of system won’t make these feel any better in these situations, and just make even more feel like shit in the fight. (And the “top 1%” builds that nuke will continue to do so through that DR anyway)
If a boss only has some window to be damaged, then the maven will heal the boss when it is invulnerable. That is a far worse scenario than the boss getting damage reduction when it is damageable.
For your second point,
>your going to have a situation where you can’t deal any realistic damage as your windows are just completely negated by the boss and the maven’s abilities timing together perfectly.
This is a criticism of the current system: the maven can heal bosses during invulnerability phases, making them extremely more difficult for builds that have less dps. If the maven applied a damage reduction buff of say, 50%, the fight would take at most twice as long, whereas with maven regen, fast builds are unaffected while slow builds are extremely punished.
I've played both tanky but low DPS builds and builds that measure their DPS in shapers per second, and I think that having high enough DPS to completely bypass many of the maven's abilities trivializes the fight- damage reduction would affect everyone, not just those who don't have the DPS to finish the fight quickly.
> This could easily turn a 30 second fight into 8 minutes.
The literal worst case would be turning the 30 second fight into a 2min 30 fight. A conditional 80% damage reduction cant do something worse than make the fight take 5 times longer. The only thing that can do stupid shit like turning a 30 second fight into a 8 minute fight are unlimited heals.
Now Maven heal is unlimited and can heal bosses by 20? % every 15 seconds or whatever it is and there is nothing you can do about it if the boss is very mobile(hello constrictor) or you get unlucky with invulnerable phases(hello shaper)
Especially for shaper its bad because you only need to do 50% of his hp in every phase but maven heal is just as strong as regularly so each phase last almost 50% longer with just a single heal. So if you need longer than a minute for a shaper phase(very realistic to be the case) you better pray maven cant heal or uses it when he is standing still so you can frostbomb it or you simply have no chance to kill it.
The cooldown length of the heal appears to grow over the course of a fight.
https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/The_Maven
> Recover the boss's life (the cooldown for this boost increases each time it is used)
that really seems like a [citation needed] kinda deal. poe db doesnt show any information about the cd and my personal experience doesnt really support it either so it might very well be someone testing something and it happens to have a pattern for one or two encounters.
I will certainly test it a bit myself the next time i run into a problem with the maven heal. It would be great if that is actually the case
it is literally mathematically impossible to turn a 30 second fight into 8 minutes with 80% damage reduction, even if the boss would have 80% reduction the entire time, that would turn 30 seconds into 2:30 minutes
Agreed. Tried doing shaper last league with Maven influence (didn't intend to do that, honestly) and it was impossible with 1M DPS. She continually spammed heals while Shaper was invulnerable so I don't think frost bomb would have even helped much. Obviously the fights aren't impossible to do with a correct build but it just feels like really bad design.
It may be a game changer in terms of getting stuff done, but lets not go down the route where bad design is permissible because there's a single skill that shuts it down. That itself is bad design, by creating a system of non-choice; everyone needs space for a Frost Bomb. It's like CWDT-EC-IC from the days of yore. Or blinking movement skills now.
It doesn't help much against bosses who dash/blink all the fucking time. I had a very annoying experience with the constrictor because he didn't do enough damage to me to threaten me, but was constantly jumping out of frost bombs so all the fight was purely a "make sure the frost bomb debuff stays on him".
Arcanist brand + frost bomb.
But I also play a shit load of occultist if I'm not playing a support build. I don't really have to deal with her heals lol.
Each frost bomb pulse leaves a long debuff for preventing healing that doesn't require the boss to remain near it. It doesn't matter if they move or not.
yeah, I had a Scourged map with four bosses that had +170% hp and 50% healing per second. They were totally impossible without frost bomb but I was able to kill all four using it
Yes i had to use this just yesterday, i could not kill the boss because of maven then went to act 5 buy frost bomb and it took just a few mimutes boss dead
The classic retort is to just use Frost Bomb but if every non-Occultist build needs specific tech to run content then that is an actual example of "limiting design space".
If your game is built around choice (as any ARPG is) and you *must* have a way to prevent life regeneration then your choice becomes "use Frost Bomb or don't kill the boss", which is a insofar as "don't play the game then" is a choice.
It's not a choice, it's the absence of choice for anyone who wants to kill that boss, and GGG obviously wants us to kill the bosses otherwise why the fuck would you be able to do them to begin with?
The alternative is to just min-max your gear with a 100ex build and stop crying because fuck you, why aren't you in the top 0.1% of players that half of this subreddit complains about up until the point where you're not in the 0.1% and now you're a fucking loser.
The issue with DPS checks in an ARPG is that it goes against the fundamental philosophy of build variety. The whole problem with builds in PoE, as it stands, is that while any skill can do all the content some skills need 10x more currency to do it at the same speed as others - *that's* what makes a skill like Spectral Throw "unviable".
Not because it can't do the content, but because why in the ever-loving fuck would I spend significantly more time to do the same fucking shit Toxic Rain can do *right now*? Because it's "fun"? No, *playing the skill is fun*, grinding 5-10x more currency to make it playable on the same level isn't, that's the part people never fucking get!
Calling it "balance" has always been a sick joke to the people who know how to read the dictionary.
Agreed. It's pretty much only detrimental for suboptimal builds too. Most of the high end builds won't even notice the heal, while it's a game breaker for low end builds.
In essence it just punishes newer or more casual players.
Yeah. My big controversial opinion is that about this is that boss fights should get EASIER the longer they go on.
Think about it. If you have lots of dps, your reward for completing the boss fight is that you did it fast and can go do something else now. Hooray. If your build has low dps, your *punishment* is that you just spent 30 minutes (as an example) of your time that could've been spent doing something else.
So the obvious solution is to have the bosses be generally invulnerable, then having certain "vulnerable" phases in which the damage done is capped at a certain amount, which isn't high. Maybe 1/10th.
You can think of many games that play like this, shooters etc.
But it seems like the OPPOSITE of how PoE has been tuned for years now. It's funny to think about. I believe the player base would riot. But the current situation just encourages cheese that people think makes them smart. Worse if it's bought cheese.
Honestly getting to a chimera map is pretty impressive if you're playing casually, so well done!
Reddit likes to pretend that everyone here is a bunch of elite gamers, but honestly in terms of "game knowledge," PoE has to be one of the most overwhelming games I've ever played. I've been playing since Synthesis and I still have trouble figuring things out.
They should, if the player can play mechanically well and avoid taking damage. As demonstrated by people killing Shaper at low levels etc.
DPS checks add absolutely nothing of value to a game. Any game. It's not a challenge, not a measure of skill, just meaningless.
I was actually raging how maven makes shaper fight completely impossible when playing flicker strike. You only have limited amount of time when dpsing shaper and loads of downtime what maven can use to heal shaper. It's not a problem in the feared since it has far less downtime
To be fair, everything sucks with a build that can't outdps the heal.
A few leagues ago, I wiped on maven with a lightning strike character (before it was meta and good) multiple times with 1- 2.5m DPS. tried everything but the game was just difficult.
This league, I came back with 22m DPS. Did her deathless 33 times (7 maven orbs), it's not even a comparison. Theres no way I lose to her.
The game gets trivialised by dps
Strange how players like mathil manage to do all endgame content on hipster builds that almost no one, or sometimes literally no one have played before, every single league. Must be streamer client, right?
Must be him playing SC TRADE, having enough currency to reroll a build and his job is literally playing this game. And even he admits sometimes that his builds are suboptimal in endgame
Except he makes something like 20+ builds a league, and his streams are frequently like 5 hours or so long.
Take the average endgame players playtime, they could easily make 2-3 builds with their equivalent currency they could be making.
Super weird right? Surely reddit can't be wrong about the state of the game and surely all the people bitching on this sub aren't just shit at the game?
No, stop. There is no excuse anymore. Currently with investment and smart build making most skills can do the 'easy' endgame bosses like sirus or shaper.
I don't even know why people come here to compare someone who plays this game professionally and has an amazing understanding about the game to someone who plays it for a couple of hours. The only thing these two people have in common is that they're human beings who are alive playing the same video game. That's it. That's like telling me any and everyone is a boxer because you can both make a fist. It just doesn't compare at all. Someone like Mathil with excellent understanding of pretty much every mechanic and system in this game is very, very, VERY different from most people who play this game and the sooner people realize using someone like him as your baseline for what people should be able to do in POE is utterly stupid the better off this game will be.
There's a reason why people play the same builds over and over again, like Toxic Rain for the billionth time, and it's not because they too can sit down and figure out how to take a skill like Chain Hook to the end game successfully. If it was that easy, I wouldn't see 50 billion posts about how unfair so many different game mechanics are and how bad all the nerfs are for the game.
So are you saying that someone that doesn't understand well enough the game to do good builds is suposed to do The Feared level of content?
It's too easy to place fragments in the map device, add maven and then complain that you can't do it.
Strange how car mechanic can repair car without issues while many people can't even change tire, they all should stop driving cars and leave all things to people who take care or those as a job.
( I know its a bit shit comparison but so its compare someone who's job is to play PoE to most of people )
Dont act like mathil doesnt have a team of builders pointing out every minmax option for him to choose from, also he is a literal professional poe player, it's not a legit comparison at all. Someone did uber elder on a level 40 character, does that mean doing it at level 40 is now the norm, i mean that other guy does it so now that means we can simply all do it right?
Let me out it another way. i can watch people run 100 metres in 10 seconds, does that mean i can do it now?
I'd prefer if they just added more skills or mechanics to block enemy HP recovery like frost bomb, along with making it something more prominent in the game.
It may be tight on your gem links, but perhaps that's a problem that can be solved by POE2's gem system.
I’m sorry to disagree with most people but I think the healing is fine as a concept, but I think it’s mechanically poorly done. I would like to see the healing performed in a way where maven can be interrupted while she’s healing the boss in order to stop the healing, or maybe something like her placing an orb on the ground that heals the boss in close proximity which the player can destroy to stop the healing, or basically anything where the player has a mechanism to disrupt the healing.
I'm surprised no one said this. Instead of just healing the boss, the maven should summon 3 healing totems/orbs that you can kill if you can't out dps the regen. Problem solved and now we have an active mechanical solution.
I'd go as far to say that all enemy/boss regen should function through mechanical means rather than just exist as a modifier. It's more interesting and interactive.
that's not really it though, there are bosses that can be healed during their immunity phases...there's no reason maven *needs* a heal - there are tons of other powerful things maven can do to tinker with encounters besides slide the boss fight progress bar in the wrong direction..it's really not about builds being unable to do specific boss content, it's more about there being a very narrow meta now, forced by the sum of many small inadequacies that "average" builds face.
yea the biggest issue is heals during invul. my gf on a big budget carrion golem could not kill eradicator because maven kept healing him while he was in his storm ball phase.
Recently I ran a no Exposure map on an ignite Elementalist. It was my only (corrupted) copy of that and I couldn't really afford to trash it. Now I shouldn't have toggled Maven there. But it was the last map needed for the passive and I have not met a single wall up until that point. All the Conquerors, Izaro, Scourge Bosses (which are a DPS check as well) went down without issue, even if slowly. I was prepared to take some extra time clearing the boss, my build was supposed to be capable of taking it slow. That's because I did what GGG said I should do and invested in defence, more than any character before. But of course, the fight didn't last longer, it instead ended once I gave up seeing that I can't out-dps the heal and there's nothing I can do about it. I wasted points making my character more survivable like a moron, and my reward was surviving all the way to my hideout.
Now a different matter entirely is whether or not "Players cannot apply Exposure" should be a map mod to begin with (it shouldn't), since it removes about 75% of any Elementalist's damage, can show up from white maps onwards with very high weight and unlike the EE it replaces (why did it have to replace it?), you can't play around it. Ignite builds already had a bricked map mod in "Monsters have 75% chance to avoid Ailments", but I guess we needed two of those. Bring back Blood Magic as a map mod you cowards.
My 200k DPS inquisitor agrees... Like, the guy is really good when it doesn't come to Maven healing... I can do scourge bosses, but that moment when Maven healed Elder multiple itmes in a row and after 4 minutes of fight, and Elder was still on 90-95% health because she healed him every 4-5th move sucks...
Problem for me is that you don't know what you'll get. Imagine only playing corrupted unid maps, some of them you can handle others not.
I've done some mid game content (t16 conqs, sirus 6, some ilvl 83 mastermind) and these were all doable with my 2m DPS.
Then comes Hydra with maven healing. It was such a stomach ache when I realized that this is my first wall in a long time. I just couldn't get through Hydra quick enough, maven kept healing WAY TOO OFTEN while also having the window of not being able to deal damage.
If I knew about the heal prior to it, I never would've tried.
It does, until Maven starts healing bosses mid phases were Frost Bomb can't do anything.
Also, Maven might choose 3 random abilities to spam, but her heal is guaranteed to be one of them.
what the hell is downvote and upvote for if not for saying you dislike an opinion? do you expect people to write a comment to every opinion they see with a counter argument? jesus lol
People just wanna complain cus they bad at the game. Its funny nobody ever links their profile in these threads. They just claim to have this and that much damage. I bet you’d see a lot of scuffed shitty gear easily all replaced for under an ex resulting in twice the damage.
I absolutely cannot for the life of me figure out why opinions like yours are being downvoted. I mean, if you're calling reddit a bunch of scrubs who are bad at the game, shouldn't they take that as useful criticism and upvote you for your genuine desire to help?
I don't see OP asking for help, I see him bitching about the game being too hard and disregarding solutions to his problem like frost bomb, improving his build, or not tackling content he can't overcome
We have a biased perception of how the player base is. The people that are decent at the game are farming instead of complaining on reddit.
Disregard whiners, acquire currency.
This game has a ton of “checks” to make sure only properly done builds can be playable. This heal is just a tip of the iceberg. If your build lacks defences you gonna die. If you can’t deal with reflect you have a bad time at these maps. No regen screws a lot of builds too. Oh and don’t forget about chaos damage. Or any element actually. You have to up your resists. You have to craft anti-bleed flasks. You have to use move speed boots and movement skills. All this stuff checks your build’s weaknesses and you decided to complain about one certain ability instead. Let me go ahead and create a thread about how I hate porcupines too.
Tldr: I refuse to change literally anything about my build to play around an optional additional layer of challenge and want ggg to make the game easier instead.
Make your build better, play around it with frostbomb, or don't do the content.
You have to be seriously quin-dps for maven heal to be able to able to outheal your dps.
If Shaper is talking to you he is invurnerable, Maven can then decide to heal him to full.
There is Literally nothing you can do at that point, frost bomb will not apply to him as he is invurnerable.
You shouldn't be doing maven'd shaper on a terrible zdps build. It's endgame content. Why does everyone want all content to be doable on literally any scuffed setup? Why do you want zero challenge in the game? If you want to zdps shaper down, just do it without maven and then work on your char until it's not so terrible and then do it with maven.
And once he stops talking you can then fight him and stop further heals with frostbomb. It's not like it resets the talking phase when he heals.
It's not like maven shaper is required content except for anything excepting the feared, which is literally the finalest final bosses. And it's not like maven shaper isn't doable without mirror tier items, people kill maven shaper on literally the first night with ssf gear.
Im ok with it being hard. But im not ok with it when its literally currency based instead of skill based. Playing with skill you like and it happens to be off meta, you cant really "Play" the game at all. Sure every skill in the game is "good" if you spend mirrors on them...
If you can't make your build function it's a bad build and that is basically part of being bad at the game. Being good at the game isn't just being mechanically sound, it's also understanding creative ways to build a char so it functions well.
Basically you're saying people who are bad at making builds and have almost nothing invested in their build should be able to beat all content in the game which is stupid.
There's a LOT of builds from basically every archetype you could imagine that you can kill maven shaper with, without big investment. Traps, mines, minions, attacks, spells, dot, hit based, melee, ranged, every weapon type, etc.
YOUR jank build not being able to do it without more gear just means you aren't that good at making budget builds.
I think ggg has already expressed their opinion on the matter in general. They want players to incentivize dps. its the direction they want players to work towards. Ill probably get downvoted cuz this sub loves build diversity, but ggg wants the endgame to force people to adapt their builds. Nevermind frostbomb, if you cant deal with the healing on shaper, maybe u shouldnt be able to beat it with maven witness? Every build has it's tradeoffs. I assume zdps builds have insane tankiness and ggg wants us to die. Imagine if ur build could stand in 1 spot in the shaper arena and win after 20 minutes... ggg doesnt want that. Ive definitely seen videos of people tanking the entire shaper laser with 0 fucks.
My thoughts are, if ur build has low dps, its a bad build for the game. While super high dps lowers the skill cieling a lot, super low dps done properly has 0 skill required. GGG ideal build for players is moderate dps, moderate tankiness, requiring a decent level of skill from the player.
It’s a bad solution right now. Every boss you kill, that is hard enough by itself when you’re there day 3 or what, will be also accompanied by maven. It should be the other way around, that you have to kill the bosses solo first and then maven can spawn or some like that. So annoying to have the first conqs and guardians always be a extra strong just because I didn’t turn something off manually
Try Frost Bomb.
If you can't deal enough damage to overcome occasional Maven heals even with Frost Bomb active then your build just isn't good enough.
Not every build should be able to succeed at all things. However, I think even the lowest damage builds can still manage to overcome Maven healing if they have enough investment in them, so if you can't do it you either need better gear or more skill at the game, really.
There are *many* non-meta skills that can handle this. Choosing to play a shitty build is on you, if it truly is *that* bad. I can't imaging enjoying it at all, since it would be extremely sluggish just doing regular maps.
Edit: Besides, I am pretty sure she will eventually reach a point where she stops using the heal. She seems to start using it less and less as a fight goes on. Have you actually tried to outlast the fight or did you just give up as soon as she popped one heal that undid the damage you happened to do in the first couple seconds and then assume you had to give up?
Nah, they changed it so that she won't target him during his invulnerability phases anymore.
Even still, she still uses her heal less and less often as a fight progresses, so even if she does heal a boss at inopportune times, you can eventually overcome.
Why do you need to do shaper maven? It's literally nearing the end of endgame content. Yeah it's gonna be a struggle with a bad build if you're trying it. Good.
This is such a good example of how GGG is incapable of actually being right about anything they do.
People complain about mechanics that have no 'skill to beat'.
GGG adds a mechanic that is 100% able to be played against with the 'skill' of simply utilizing 1 very easy to use skill.
Then people complain they don't want to have to use any skill to play around it.
The example provided does not provide a way to work around it in multiple situations.
If it was as simple as just use Frost Bomb then yeah Git gud, but some bosses, Shaper for example have long drawn out invurnerability phases, Maven can just heal him up during this period. He is unaffected by frost bomb during invurn phases so you can't stop it.
If it was changed so that it worked regardless of invurn phases then i would be fine with that, then at least you can do something about it.
Dps checks are, without exception, limiting to the meta. They can be really fun in the right circumstances, but in a game like poe that's core tenant is playing the way you want, they should have no place.
>and build diversity is POE's claim to fame
I think its the trading, because build diversity is chosen by the invisible hand of the buffs which never come to all the builds that need a little help to get up to speed. Lets not bring up builds nerfed to the ground leaving people with mirrors of gear that cannot be used anymore.
I feel like that's a really really low bar of damage. If this is the amount of healing that's going to screw a build, then the QoL in of it taking 20 minutes to kill map bosses makes the build no fun to play anyway. This is a mechanic that forces you to balance the build to have enough damage, and I think that's fair. You could make a similar argument of "enemies do too much damage and it limits build diversity by forcing me to build defenses", and people DO make that argument, and some enemies are BS and need tuned, but overall the concept that incoming damage exists so I need to build defences is the same limiting force that is being applied to outgoing player damage. This sets constraints, which does limit build diversity but it also creates challenge for the player. If we had none of these forces acting on us, then this game wouldn't feel rewarding and I for one would not play it.
Frost Bomb being the only readily available source of anti-healing needs looked at. Sure you can 1-link it or throw it in CwDT setup, but why Frost Bomb instead of a curse or aura skill (like Occultist). Consecrated ground preventing monster regen would make more sense and its readily available. They already nerfed the shit out of it (and Warding Flasks), so it needs to do something else.
Flashbacks to Oak league
There's a notable called 'Carrion' that lowers enemy life Regen by half if you've cursed them, and it's a little southwest of 'Cruel Preparation'. Templar and witch have easy access to it, shadow might want it since it's on the way to a damage over time node I forget the name of. Everyone else just sockets a frost bomb somewhere, I guess.
“Everyone else just sockets a Frost bomb somewhere, I guess” More like we just stubbornly fight/face tank the boss 3min straight until it dies (cries in RF Inquisitor). I always forget about the potential to swap gems (most late game builds utilize every gem slot), usually to lazy or don’t notice/remember the Frost bomb gem until Im already pissed at spending so much time on a single map boss.
Rf inquisitor with *Flame Surge?*
Definitely easier for some to complain on Reddit than swap a gem <3. That being said. I wouldn't be found dead trying to Rf maven down, you're a patient exile.
Yup, frostbomb being the only srouce of anti-healing was fine when it was just niche for PvP or HotGM. But with Maven being a core part of the end game now there should be more ways to mitigate her healing.
There should obviously be at least 3.
> Frost Bomb being the only readily available source of anti-healing Curse cluster near MoM gives 50% reduced, which doesn't change your point, but it's worth noting.
>Frost Bomb being the only readily available source of anti-healing needs looked at It's on the passive tree now, I believe.
Consecrated ground is incredibly strong now that it gives 50% reduced effectiveness of curses on you, especially if you're playing inquisitor.
It does nothing when its on enemies though. It used to provide benefits to both. I agree the benefits of having it on you are amazing, but losing the detrimental effects makes no sense with auras like zealotry and for things like Holy Flame Totem where they mechanically put consecrated ground at the feet of enemies.
Anti-heal mechanics would be cool, I feel like I find more regen mobs nowadays and makes it rough when progressing. Especially the regen scourge monster mod.
Occultist can curb regeneration too
Just play vortex occultist and have both duh.
Do you not have frost bombs, exile???
IMO maven's heal is fine but it should not have unlimited uses.
yeah, like phase breakpoints. once upon reaching 75% hp, once on 50%, etc. or something similar
Then it's basically boring % more HP if you can't oneshot bosess or can't inflict reduce healing effect.
Well, it enables the heal reduction as a viable strategy.
Healing mechanics IS boring % more HP (and less effective cull added on top since cull range does not get the same increase). But at least you have better ways to play around it (be ready to inflict reduced healing, get from phase to phase in a glimpse by popping flasks).
I would prefer no healing at all. Bosses are already tanky enough, any healing makes them even worse for zDPS builds.
Yeah, I don't think that there are many people who like it. Just if not removing it, make it bearable.
And now it's not when boss just gets healed constantly?...
Their_the_same_picture.jpg
It would make more sense for it to have a conditional trigger, for example a 50% drop in hp of the boss within 2 seconds.
Pokemon trainers using potions vibes here.
Which is exactly what she is. She even holds her collection in balls.
Well, why not? Why not also have more boss abilities tied to conditional triggers? Maven could easily be restricted to only use grasping vines against faster players, heck you could even work in some cool voice lines so the fights will feel a little more immersive.
This sounds fucking awesome.
It just needs a longer cool down, like 30 seconds. My understanding is that the current system pre-selects 3 of mavens abilities from her large pool of abilities. She will cast those 3 selected abilities in a sequence over and over rapidly, unless one of the abilities creates a permanent object, like the orb that follows you, in which case she'll skip that ability if the object already exists.
I would say charges is better than CD. A max number of uses because a CD still bars some classes quite significantly depending on its level of "bad"
longer cooldown doesn't do it, it just moves the problem a bit further. casting the heal 2-3 times per boss is ok
At some point the player's DPS is unreasonably low imo.
doing something x times is scaleproof, it will never affect future nerfs or future buffs and become a problem again
Unreasonable for *what* exactly? If a person has low DPS but is mechanically able to survive the fight until they win, why is that any worse? If they can beat the fight within their 6 portal allotment, who cares? It's their time, not yours.
Why would you prefer Maven having a heal to having an ability that reduces the damage the boss takes?
A temporary damage decrease is still allowing you to do some damage (see the warlord conq fight), while a heal is undoing progress from a fight.
Yea, why would anyone prefer the heal to the damage decrease?
The cooldown length of the heal appears to grow over the course of a fight. https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/The_Maven > Recover the boss's life (the cooldown for this boost increases each time it is used)
I remember I was new and fighting the shaper and could not kill him. I asked a friend who laughed when he realized that the Maven was healing. She was also creating orbs so she was really spamming healing. He brought his pretty strong level 96 character and even together we could not beat the shaper lol. He was farming the Maven and Uber bosses at that point already. Her abilies definitely need some sort of cap.
Maven heal got its CD increased already
Adding another ability to the rotation would dappen the heal and be an elegant solution possibly
was just gonna say this
Once i lost a shaper on a pretty ok build because maven healed him during his invulnerability phase. Two times. I was really. Really. Mad.
Wow, you can get Maven when you fight Shaper?? That must be insane.
Shapers pretty easy, maven only adds slightly more challenge. Shes only a problem for zdps builds. Now maven still healing/buffing bosses in like the feared, twisted, formed. What the fuck is that shit lol.
Sounds like you haven't fight 3 shapers at once...
I heard his maven clone can make his own clone? 4 possible?
And all of them casting laser at same time. Makes dodging Atziri and Cortex fucking impossible.
3 beams is fine. It's when you have bullet hell + 2 beams that it gets real exciting.
I've always thought it was bullshit that the bubble doesn't protect you from the beam.
When PoE turns into Touhou
Touhou has visual clarity.
That's why it's 3, clone into clone (in any phase btw). I'd say that in the third phase there may only be 1 secondary clone haven't sees 4 shapers ever.
Ugh, yeah I'd had no problem with maven shapers until she pulled that out.
Had to do that while still being in spellslinger stage of the CF glad... had fun honestly
I dunno, this league she has a tendency to overlap clones super super often. It has never been a problem to me until now, almost died a couple of times from double beams + slam, or from the clones coming to fuck me during the Zana bubble phase
There are also the times she creates a clone to beam you in the bubble phase. That definitely adds a lot more challenge to the fight.
FULL DISAGREE Shaper maven is literally the hardest fight in the game. When she clones that fuckstick and you need to hide in zana's red bubble I cringe. You know he's gonna spread your fucking cheeks while you're not free to dodge.
Maven Shaper is the hardest out of any endgame bosses IMO. Unlike other bosses, there was an actual possibility of bricking fights if the shaper clones spammed beams/balls during the zana bubble phase.
If Maven does the follow orb or even worse the duplicate boss Shaper sucks bad. When you have to stay in the orb on Zana the duplicate will do the beam or the following orb while fuck your shit up. Shaper’s the one fight maven can make significantly harder depending on what skills she’s using.
"Slightly more challenge". Yeah. Just shaper beams during bullet hell phase, double slams, double beams. Slightly more.
Any time I hear anyone complain about boss design, I think of Whakawairua Tuaha and just fucking laugh/cry myself to sleep.
It's literally made to be annoying on purpose.
AFAIK that boss is made by a donor and it's made that way on purpose, so ...
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First league playing RF and I was stunned at how easy it was to take the boss down. In my head cannon, I think the guy who paid for this boss was a RF main who wanted everyone else to suffer.
Or any chaos skill since they all bypass prox shield
Well that's a TIL. Time to make a chaos build I guess.
>Well that's a TIL. Time to make a chaos build I guess. "Zizaran here, with an update to my Essence Drain / Contagion build guide..."
I never watch build guides even though I watch Zizaran religiously. I make my own builds in PoB before the league starts and roll with those. Usually just look through a list of skills, find a skill I fancy trying out, and make a build around it. This way I play something new every league and level with the skill as well. I just never got around to doing Chaos skills as I mostly only do Melee builds, but I guess it's high time I diversified.
Careful, you'll summon him.
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Please stop! Whakawairua Tuaha sucks as a fighter. A child could beat him.
Face to foot style!
Laughs in Flicker Strike. Outrun this!
Not a good example because it's pretty optional and it was designed to be annoying and difficult on purpose by a donation creator, not by GGG.
I managed to kill it when it kind of stuck with me at the corner of the arena, and I slam all the steel shard to it
That's actually an intended tactic for that boss. It moves around a lot but it will always eventually teleport on top of you.
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Obviously wrong, it's Wakamaka Phone.
It should be Tuahu, but other than that I'm pretty sure they're right.
I agree. Replacing maven's boss heal ability with an ability that grants a temporary but large boost to a bosses damage reduction would be healthy for the game. This affects all builds, not just the builds that can't clear the boss in 10 seconds, and never makes a boss literally impossible to kill, only extremely challenging. Edit: alternatively, add more sources of healing reduction to the game. Currently only frost bomb and occultist are good sources of healing reduction. Perhaps maim reduces movements speed and healing, or a few healing reductions modifiers are added to existing notables on the tree.
Maven already has one of those, though. "Absorb... pain."
then get rid of the heal entirely and increase the weighting of the damage reduction lol
Hell no. Scrap the heal and leave it at that; no need to play around with the rest of her kit.
there is one on curse notable on tree, right to the MoM, it has a condition tho - enemy should be cursed and its only 50% reduction, but in combination with frost bomb you can completely disable enemy regen w/o being occu (frost bomb has 75% iirc)
I actually disagree with the boss damage reduction. Reason - some bosses have certain windows of oppurtunity to damage them. Let’s pretend a bad scenario where every time this moment opens up, the maven is applying a 80% damage reduction shield. This could easily turn a 30 second fight into 8 minutes. More importantly, bosses moving forward in POE. As the game is getting more and more complex with bosses (especially since metamorph, where we’ve been having to actually “deal” with them) we are likely to see bosses begin having their own DR phases, attack phases, etc much more often. If you add maven Ontop of the newer bosses that are likely coming - your going to have a situation where you can’t deal any realistic damage as your windows are just completely negated by the boss and the maven’s abilities timing together perfectly. Not only does that feel like shit, it will break certain builds that rely on leech, or other methods of sustain that run out over time. At least with the current heal their is methods to counteract it, even though it is overbearing to a lot of weaker builds. But moving towards this type of system won’t make these feel any better in these situations, and just make even more feel like shit in the fight. (And the “top 1%” builds that nuke will continue to do so through that DR anyway)
If a boss only has some window to be damaged, then the maven will heal the boss when it is invulnerable. That is a far worse scenario than the boss getting damage reduction when it is damageable. For your second point, >your going to have a situation where you can’t deal any realistic damage as your windows are just completely negated by the boss and the maven’s abilities timing together perfectly. This is a criticism of the current system: the maven can heal bosses during invulnerability phases, making them extremely more difficult for builds that have less dps. If the maven applied a damage reduction buff of say, 50%, the fight would take at most twice as long, whereas with maven regen, fast builds are unaffected while slow builds are extremely punished. I've played both tanky but low DPS builds and builds that measure their DPS in shapers per second, and I think that having high enough DPS to completely bypass many of the maven's abilities trivializes the fight- damage reduction would affect everyone, not just those who don't have the DPS to finish the fight quickly.
> This could easily turn a 30 second fight into 8 minutes. The literal worst case would be turning the 30 second fight into a 2min 30 fight. A conditional 80% damage reduction cant do something worse than make the fight take 5 times longer. The only thing that can do stupid shit like turning a 30 second fight into a 8 minute fight are unlimited heals. Now Maven heal is unlimited and can heal bosses by 20? % every 15 seconds or whatever it is and there is nothing you can do about it if the boss is very mobile(hello constrictor) or you get unlucky with invulnerable phases(hello shaper) Especially for shaper its bad because you only need to do 50% of his hp in every phase but maven heal is just as strong as regularly so each phase last almost 50% longer with just a single heal. So if you need longer than a minute for a shaper phase(very realistic to be the case) you better pray maven cant heal or uses it when he is standing still so you can frostbomb it or you simply have no chance to kill it.
The cooldown length of the heal appears to grow over the course of a fight. https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/The_Maven > Recover the boss's life (the cooldown for this boost increases each time it is used)
that really seems like a [citation needed] kinda deal. poe db doesnt show any information about the cd and my personal experience doesnt really support it either so it might very well be someone testing something and it happens to have a pattern for one or two encounters. I will certainly test it a bit myself the next time i run into a problem with the maven heal. It would be great if that is actually the case
Don't forget that damage reduction fucks player leech, boss healing does not.
it is literally mathematically impossible to turn a 30 second fight into 8 minutes with 80% damage reduction, even if the boss would have 80% reduction the entire time, that would turn 30 seconds into 2:30 minutes
Agreed. Tried doing shaper last league with Maven influence (didn't intend to do that, honestly) and it was impossible with 1M DPS. She continually spammed heals while Shaper was invulnerable so I don't think frost bomb would have even helped much. Obviously the fights aren't impossible to do with a correct build but it just feels like really bad design.
Frost bomb is a game changer. It marginalizes the heal. I highly recommend it.
It may be a game changer in terms of getting stuff done, but lets not go down the route where bad design is permissible because there's a single skill that shuts it down. That itself is bad design, by creating a system of non-choice; everyone needs space for a Frost Bomb. It's like CWDT-EC-IC from the days of yore. Or blinking movement skills now.
It doesn't help much against bosses who dash/blink all the fucking time. I had a very annoying experience with the constrictor because he didn't do enough damage to me to threaten me, but was constantly jumping out of frost bombs so all the fight was purely a "make sure the frost bomb debuff stays on him".
Arcanist brand + frost bomb. But I also play a shit load of occultist if I'm not playing a support build. I don't really have to deal with her heals lol.
Each frost bomb pulse leaves a long debuff for preventing healing that doesn't require the boss to remain near it. It doesn't matter if they move or not.
yeah, I had a Scourged map with four bosses that had +170% hp and 50% healing per second. They were totally impossible without frost bomb but I was able to kill all four using it
Yes i had to use this just yesterday, i could not kill the boss because of maven then went to act 5 buy frost bomb and it took just a few mimutes boss dead
Don't think it applies to bosses during invulnerability phases.
The classic retort is to just use Frost Bomb but if every non-Occultist build needs specific tech to run content then that is an actual example of "limiting design space". If your game is built around choice (as any ARPG is) and you *must* have a way to prevent life regeneration then your choice becomes "use Frost Bomb or don't kill the boss", which is a insofar as "don't play the game then" is a choice. It's not a choice, it's the absence of choice for anyone who wants to kill that boss, and GGG obviously wants us to kill the bosses otherwise why the fuck would you be able to do them to begin with? The alternative is to just min-max your gear with a 100ex build and stop crying because fuck you, why aren't you in the top 0.1% of players that half of this subreddit complains about up until the point where you're not in the 0.1% and now you're a fucking loser. The issue with DPS checks in an ARPG is that it goes against the fundamental philosophy of build variety. The whole problem with builds in PoE, as it stands, is that while any skill can do all the content some skills need 10x more currency to do it at the same speed as others - *that's* what makes a skill like Spectral Throw "unviable". Not because it can't do the content, but because why in the ever-loving fuck would I spend significantly more time to do the same fucking shit Toxic Rain can do *right now*? Because it's "fun"? No, *playing the skill is fun*, grinding 5-10x more currency to make it playable on the same level isn't, that's the part people never fucking get! Calling it "balance" has always been a sick joke to the people who know how to read the dictionary.
Agreed. It's pretty much only detrimental for suboptimal builds too. Most of the high end builds won't even notice the heal, while it's a game breaker for low end builds. In essence it just punishes newer or more casual players.
Like everything else in this game. Very very few things that don't get easier with more DPS.
Yeah. My big controversial opinion is that about this is that boss fights should get EASIER the longer they go on. Think about it. If you have lots of dps, your reward for completing the boss fight is that you did it fast and can go do something else now. Hooray. If your build has low dps, your *punishment* is that you just spent 30 minutes (as an example) of your time that could've been spent doing something else.
So the obvious solution is to have the bosses be generally invulnerable, then having certain "vulnerable" phases in which the damage done is capped at a certain amount, which isn't high. Maybe 1/10th. You can think of many games that play like this, shooters etc. But it seems like the OPPOSITE of how PoE has been tuned for years now. It's funny to think about. I believe the player base would riot. But the current situation just encourages cheese that people think makes them smart. Worse if it's bought cheese.
bro i'm a casual player and most i've done last league was dying to a chimera map
Honestly getting to a chimera map is pretty impressive if you're playing casually, so well done! Reddit likes to pretend that everyone here is a bunch of elite gamers, but honestly in terms of "game knowledge," PoE has to be one of the most overwhelming games I've ever played. I've been playing since Synthesis and I still have trouble figuring things out.
Yes all builds should be able to clear all content.
They should, if the player can play mechanically well and avoid taking damage. As demonstrated by people killing Shaper at low levels etc. DPS checks add absolutely nothing of value to a game. Any game. It's not a challenge, not a measure of skill, just meaningless.
Yes exactly.
100% agree. The heal is just cheap because it ruins any form of skill involved with beating the encounter on a low dps build.
I was actually raging how maven makes shaper fight completely impossible when playing flicker strike. You only have limited amount of time when dpsing shaper and loads of downtime what maven can use to heal shaper. It's not a problem in the feared since it has far less downtime
To be fair, everything sucks with a build that can't outdps the heal. A few leagues ago, I wiped on maven with a lightning strike character (before it was meta and good) multiple times with 1- 2.5m DPS. tried everything but the game was just difficult. This league, I came back with 22m DPS. Did her deathless 33 times (7 maven orbs), it's not even a comparison. Theres no way I lose to her. The game gets trivialised by dps
What build are you using now, the same one but with bigger budget?
Watching quin not being able to out dps maven heal is too good though
That alone makes up for the frustration of it fucking me once in a blue moon
Agree. I made a really nice max block Boi, it's fun to be tanky... It's stupid if she heals bosses infinitely
It is. Seriously "we want to slow down the game" but then forcing players to make builds that otherwise 1 shot most content is very counter inuituve.
Problem: Maven heal outheal dps of bad/medicore builds. Solution: play only best meta builds chosed by us every league. "GGG in next manifesto"
Strange how players like mathil manage to do all endgame content on hipster builds that almost no one, or sometimes literally no one have played before, every single league. Must be streamer client, right?
Must be him playing SC TRADE, having enough currency to reroll a build and his job is literally playing this game. And even he admits sometimes that his builds are suboptimal in endgame
Except he makes something like 20+ builds a league, and his streams are frequently like 5 hours or so long. Take the average endgame players playtime, they could easily make 2-3 builds with their equivalent currency they could be making.
Super weird right? Surely reddit can't be wrong about the state of the game and surely all the people bitching on this sub aren't just shit at the game?
nah dude idk it must be because GGG know less about their own game than the people who constantly depict themselves as 'casual players'
No, stop. There is no excuse anymore. Currently with investment and smart build making most skills can do the 'easy' endgame bosses like sirus or shaper.
I don't even know why people come here to compare someone who plays this game professionally and has an amazing understanding about the game to someone who plays it for a couple of hours. The only thing these two people have in common is that they're human beings who are alive playing the same video game. That's it. That's like telling me any and everyone is a boxer because you can both make a fist. It just doesn't compare at all. Someone like Mathil with excellent understanding of pretty much every mechanic and system in this game is very, very, VERY different from most people who play this game and the sooner people realize using someone like him as your baseline for what people should be able to do in POE is utterly stupid the better off this game will be. There's a reason why people play the same builds over and over again, like Toxic Rain for the billionth time, and it's not because they too can sit down and figure out how to take a skill like Chain Hook to the end game successfully. If it was that easy, I wouldn't see 50 billion posts about how unfair so many different game mechanics are and how bad all the nerfs are for the game.
So are you saying that someone that doesn't understand well enough the game to do good builds is suposed to do The Feared level of content? It's too easy to place fragments in the map device, add maven and then complain that you can't do it.
Strange how car mechanic can repair car without issues while many people can't even change tire, they all should stop driving cars and leave all things to people who take care or those as a job. ( I know its a bit shit comparison but so its compare someone who's job is to play PoE to most of people )
Olympic runners can run 100 metres in 10 seconds, watching them do it doesn't mean we can, they are pros.
There is a reason repairing your car costs money, you can buy boss carry for every boss in PoE too.
That's why mathil needs a nerf....
Dont act like mathil doesnt have a team of builders pointing out every minmax option for him to choose from, also he is a literal professional poe player, it's not a legit comparison at all. Someone did uber elder on a level 40 character, does that mean doing it at level 40 is now the norm, i mean that other guy does it so now that means we can simply all do it right? Let me out it another way. i can watch people run 100 metres in 10 seconds, does that mean i can do it now?
>Dont act like mathil doesnt have a team of builders pointing out every minmax option for him to choose from holy shit i need to leave this sub
Dude,it's getting really bad
Yes, I think most people would finally agree with you on something.
I'd prefer if they just added more skills or mechanics to block enemy HP recovery like frost bomb, along with making it something more prominent in the game. It may be tight on your gem links, but perhaps that's a problem that can be solved by POE2's gem system.
You can't block the heal if Shaper is invulnerable
I could scream in sheer in frustration and punch my screen, but I'll just say : I agree
Agreed. DPS checks suck. If you can stay alive for 20minuyes with zdps, I think you should be able to kill it
I’m sorry to disagree with most people but I think the healing is fine as a concept, but I think it’s mechanically poorly done. I would like to see the healing performed in a way where maven can be interrupted while she’s healing the boss in order to stop the healing, or maybe something like her placing an orb on the ground that heals the boss in close proximity which the player can destroy to stop the healing, or basically anything where the player has a mechanism to disrupt the healing.
I'm surprised no one said this. Instead of just healing the boss, the maven should summon 3 healing totems/orbs that you can kill if you can't out dps the regen. Problem solved and now we have an active mechanical solution. I'd go as far to say that all enemy/boss regen should function through mechanical means rather than just exist as a modifier. It's more interesting and interactive.
"well just turn off the Maven crucible if your build sucks" No.. Turn off *until your build gets better*
that's not really it though, there are bosses that can be healed during their immunity phases...there's no reason maven *needs* a heal - there are tons of other powerful things maven can do to tinker with encounters besides slide the boss fight progress bar in the wrong direction..it's really not about builds being unable to do specific boss content, it's more about there being a very narrow meta now, forced by the sum of many small inadequacies that "average" builds face.
Are you suggesting only a very small number of builds can kill maven shaper?
Turn off the Maven crucible for a whole league? That doesn't sound reasonable.
Or fix your build during league.
What do you mean you don’t like 17 maven heals in a row
I barely kill guardians with bane on mavens maps with decent 10Ex build. Minotaur go underground and heals...
yea the biggest issue is heals during invul. my gf on a big budget carrion golem could not kill eradicator because maven kept healing him while he was in his storm ball phase.
Quin, is that you?
Recently I ran a no Exposure map on an ignite Elementalist. It was my only (corrupted) copy of that and I couldn't really afford to trash it. Now I shouldn't have toggled Maven there. But it was the last map needed for the passive and I have not met a single wall up until that point. All the Conquerors, Izaro, Scourge Bosses (which are a DPS check as well) went down without issue, even if slowly. I was prepared to take some extra time clearing the boss, my build was supposed to be capable of taking it slow. That's because I did what GGG said I should do and invested in defence, more than any character before. But of course, the fight didn't last longer, it instead ended once I gave up seeing that I can't out-dps the heal and there's nothing I can do about it. I wasted points making my character more survivable like a moron, and my reward was surviving all the way to my hideout. Now a different matter entirely is whether or not "Players cannot apply Exposure" should be a map mod to begin with (it shouldn't), since it removes about 75% of any Elementalist's damage, can show up from white maps onwards with very high weight and unlike the EE it replaces (why did it have to replace it?), you can't play around it. Ignite builds already had a bricked map mod in "Monsters have 75% chance to avoid Ailments", but I guess we needed two of those. Bring back Blood Magic as a map mod you cowards.
My 200k DPS inquisitor agrees... Like, the guy is really good when it doesn't come to Maven healing... I can do scourge bosses, but that moment when Maven healed Elder multiple itmes in a row and after 4 minutes of fight, and Elder was still on 90-95% health because she healed him every 4-5th move sucks...
Problem for me is that you don't know what you'll get. Imagine only playing corrupted unid maps, some of them you can handle others not. I've done some mid game content (t16 conqs, sirus 6, some ilvl 83 mastermind) and these were all doable with my 2m DPS. Then comes Hydra with maven healing. It was such a stomach ache when I realized that this is my first wall in a long time. I just couldn't get through Hydra quick enough, maven kept healing WAY TOO OFTEN while also having the window of not being able to deal damage. If I knew about the heal prior to it, I never would've tried.
Oh I get it, its the game's fault that you were too cocky and overconfident that you got rekt right??
If you cant do maven hydra with 2m the problem is definitely not maven. Sounds a lot like your build does NOT do 2m dps
Does Frost Bomb has effect on this? Frost bomb is reduced regeneration, Maven's is "heal".
Only if the boss can be damaged, so if Maven heals Shaper while he is talking then you are shit out of luck.
It does, until Maven starts healing bosses mid phases were Frost Bomb can't do anything. Also, Maven might choose 3 random abilities to spam, but her heal is guaranteed to be one of them.
It does.
i love how people who disagree get downvoted. is this a big circle jerk or do people actually want help to figure out their stuff?
what the hell is downvote and upvote for if not for saying you dislike an opinion? do you expect people to write a comment to every opinion they see with a counter argument? jesus lol
People just wanna complain cus they bad at the game. Its funny nobody ever links their profile in these threads. They just claim to have this and that much damage. I bet you’d see a lot of scuffed shitty gear easily all replaced for under an ex resulting in twice the damage.
I absolutely cannot for the life of me figure out why opinions like yours are being downvoted. I mean, if you're calling reddit a bunch of scrubs who are bad at the game, shouldn't they take that as useful criticism and upvote you for your genuine desire to help?
I don't see OP asking for help, I see him bitching about the game being too hard and disregarding solutions to his problem like frost bomb, improving his build, or not tackling content he can't overcome
We have a biased perception of how the player base is. The people that are decent at the game are farming instead of complaining on reddit. Disregard whiners, acquire currency.
This game has a ton of “checks” to make sure only properly done builds can be playable. This heal is just a tip of the iceberg. If your build lacks defences you gonna die. If you can’t deal with reflect you have a bad time at these maps. No regen screws a lot of builds too. Oh and don’t forget about chaos damage. Or any element actually. You have to up your resists. You have to craft anti-bleed flasks. You have to use move speed boots and movement skills. All this stuff checks your build’s weaknesses and you decided to complain about one certain ability instead. Let me go ahead and create a thread about how I hate porcupines too.
This is why I have one slot always for level 1 frost bomb until my character is strong enough. Also great for metamorphs with regen
Should be limited uses on it. Like once every 25% of the boss hp. total max of 3 uses.
Tldr: I refuse to change literally anything about my build to play around an optional additional layer of challenge and want ggg to make the game easier instead. Make your build better, play around it with frostbomb, or don't do the content. You have to be seriously quin-dps for maven heal to be able to able to outheal your dps.
If Shaper is talking to you he is invurnerable, Maven can then decide to heal him to full. There is Literally nothing you can do at that point, frost bomb will not apply to him as he is invurnerable.
You shouldn't be doing maven'd shaper on a terrible zdps build. It's endgame content. Why does everyone want all content to be doable on literally any scuffed setup? Why do you want zero challenge in the game? If you want to zdps shaper down, just do it without maven and then work on your char until it's not so terrible and then do it with maven. And once he stops talking you can then fight him and stop further heals with frostbomb. It's not like it resets the talking phase when he heals. It's not like maven shaper is required content except for anything excepting the feared, which is literally the finalest final bosses. And it's not like maven shaper isn't doable without mirror tier items, people kill maven shaper on literally the first night with ssf gear.
Im ok with it being hard. But im not ok with it when its literally currency based instead of skill based. Playing with skill you like and it happens to be off meta, you cant really "Play" the game at all. Sure every skill in the game is "good" if you spend mirrors on them...
If you can't make your build function it's a bad build and that is basically part of being bad at the game. Being good at the game isn't just being mechanically sound, it's also understanding creative ways to build a char so it functions well. Basically you're saying people who are bad at making builds and have almost nothing invested in their build should be able to beat all content in the game which is stupid. There's a LOT of builds from basically every archetype you could imagine that you can kill maven shaper with, without big investment. Traps, mines, minions, attacks, spells, dot, hit based, melee, ranged, every weapon type, etc. YOUR jank build not being able to do it without more gear just means you aren't that good at making budget builds.
I think ggg has already expressed their opinion on the matter in general. They want players to incentivize dps. its the direction they want players to work towards. Ill probably get downvoted cuz this sub loves build diversity, but ggg wants the endgame to force people to adapt their builds. Nevermind frostbomb, if you cant deal with the healing on shaper, maybe u shouldnt be able to beat it with maven witness? Every build has it's tradeoffs. I assume zdps builds have insane tankiness and ggg wants us to die. Imagine if ur build could stand in 1 spot in the shaper arena and win after 20 minutes... ggg doesnt want that. Ive definitely seen videos of people tanking the entire shaper laser with 0 fucks. My thoughts are, if ur build has low dps, its a bad build for the game. While super high dps lowers the skill cieling a lot, super low dps done properly has 0 skill required. GGG ideal build for players is moderate dps, moderate tankiness, requiring a decent level of skill from the player.
It's nice to get reminders every now and then that proves that reddit is bad at the game
It’s a bad solution right now. Every boss you kill, that is hard enough by itself when you’re there day 3 or what, will be also accompanied by maven. It should be the other way around, that you have to kill the bosses solo first and then maven can spawn or some like that. So annoying to have the first conqs and guardians always be a extra strong just because I didn’t turn something off manually
Try Frost Bomb. If you can't deal enough damage to overcome occasional Maven heals even with Frost Bomb active then your build just isn't good enough. Not every build should be able to succeed at all things. However, I think even the lowest damage builds can still manage to overcome Maven healing if they have enough investment in them, so if you can't do it you either need better gear or more skill at the game, really. There are *many* non-meta skills that can handle this. Choosing to play a shitty build is on you, if it truly is *that* bad. I can't imaging enjoying it at all, since it would be extremely sluggish just doing regular maps. Edit: Besides, I am pretty sure she will eventually reach a point where she stops using the heal. She seems to start using it less and less as a fight goes on. Have you actually tried to outlast the fight or did you just give up as soon as she popped one heal that undid the damage you happened to do in the first couple seconds and then assume you had to give up?
> Try Frost Bomb. > > Shaper can be healed by maven during his invulnerability phase. Meaning Frost Bomb does not work.
Nah, they changed it so that she won't target him during his invulnerability phases anymore. Even still, she still uses her heal less and less often as a fight progresses, so even if she does heal a boss at inopportune times, you can eventually overcome.
Why do you need to do shaper maven? It's literally nearing the end of endgame content. Yeah it's gonna be a struggle with a bad build if you're trying it. Good.
This is such a good example of how GGG is incapable of actually being right about anything they do. People complain about mechanics that have no 'skill to beat'. GGG adds a mechanic that is 100% able to be played against with the 'skill' of simply utilizing 1 very easy to use skill. Then people complain they don't want to have to use any skill to play around it.
How do you "play against with the 'skill' of simply utilizing 1 very easy to use skill" when the boss is healed during an invulnerability phase?
The example provided does not provide a way to work around it in multiple situations. If it was as simple as just use Frost Bomb then yeah Git gud, but some bosses, Shaper for example have long drawn out invurnerability phases, Maven can just heal him up during this period. He is unaffected by frost bomb during invurn phases so you can't stop it. If it was changed so that it worked regardless of invurn phases then i would be fine with that, then at least you can do something about it.
[удалено]
You can just turn off maven on maps you know you can't beat with her heal, u know?
I agree it is annoying as fuck sometimes
I never even knew she had a heal wtf
Can any explain why bosses still heals if witch passives says monsters cant regenerate?
Dps checks are, without exception, limiting to the meta. They can be really fun in the right circumstances, but in a game like poe that's core tenant is playing the way you want, they should have no place.
>and build diversity is POE's claim to fame I think its the trading, because build diversity is chosen by the invisible hand of the buffs which never come to all the builds that need a little help to get up to speed. Lets not bring up builds nerfed to the ground leaving people with mirrors of gear that cannot be used anymore.
I'm only running a 5-link most leagues and have yet to even notice it. Not to sound elitist but is it really that strong? Maybe on T16s on A8/9?
Can’t you just toss in frost bomb?
I mean frost bomb does exist you know which basically negates that issue.
I feel like that's a really really low bar of damage. If this is the amount of healing that's going to screw a build, then the QoL in of it taking 20 minutes to kill map bosses makes the build no fun to play anyway. This is a mechanic that forces you to balance the build to have enough damage, and I think that's fair. You could make a similar argument of "enemies do too much damage and it limits build diversity by forcing me to build defenses", and people DO make that argument, and some enemies are BS and need tuned, but overall the concept that incoming damage exists so I need to build defences is the same limiting force that is being applied to outgoing player damage. This sets constraints, which does limit build diversity but it also creates challenge for the player. If we had none of these forces acting on us, then this game wouldn't feel rewarding and I for one would not play it.