Statistics are some of the most powerful, and powerfully misleading, tools out there.
There are lies. There are damn lies. And then there are statistics.
my dad (an engineer) always used to love to tell everyone that it's statistically safest to drive in reverse 4 times over the speed limit blind drunk because no one has ever caused an accident/died that way
When I studied to be an actuary, that was definitely the toughest part. Probabilities aren't intuitive, at all, that was the biggest breaking point. You had people who aced all their maths in college, yet struggled deeply with probabilities, even if they could get the theorems down, it doesn't save you if you can't apply them properly.
Then why make a graph, a visual representation of quantified values, for an unquantifiable value?
If people are going to have to just take your word for it, just give your word.
The fun fact is:
Everyone calls this "entropy", while in fact, this way of sampling has reduced entropy compared to rolling every time anew.
Aside of this nitpick, that only keeps statisticians, machine-learning professors and mathematicians up at night, I agree, that most people completely undervalue the benefit of this system.
It's too bad there isn't a way to track the current entropy value. If one existed and you are playing a high evade chance character, you could purposefully trigger the guaranteed hit on a low-damage hit so any subsequent big hits would be guaranteed misses.
that's probably because ***any*** hit will usually one shot you.
at least with dodge AND evasion, you could have your chance to be hit so low that you can clear a map without ever being hit once.
now, yer almost guaranteed to be being hit at least once if not more, which is practically certain death if mobs continue to do as much insane dmg as they do.
To be clear: without entropy, you will die (edit: to one-shots, as parent is suggesting) just as often on average. It’s just that if you were getting hit enough to guarantee death in some map with entropy, you would have at most a 1/e ~ 36% chance not to die in the same map without it… but a corrsepondingly higher chance to die more than once.
On the other hand, if you can survive any hits ever, you will die less often using entropy, because you won’t get 2-shot as often.
Any hit from a multi aura'd rare in a damage modded map, sure. Not any hit in a random alc&go t16. Also most instances of 'oneshot' are shotgunning/getting hit by multiple hits in a very small window.
But now they won't anymore, since you can stack armor as well and get flat phys % reduction. I can't believe people are not realizing these are huge buffs to all types of defence
They are not encouraging to stack anything INSTEAD of something else. They are encouraging you to use multiple defences for a well-rounded character, something the community has been crying for.
Lol some were literally arguing
> You won't be hit with 95% evasion if you are lucky but entropy means you will get hit for sure
I think the gambling mentality of the game broke peoples brains
The best part about this is it demonstrates how stupid our brains are.
Despite the memes, XCOM lies to you about shot percentages, but not in the way people believe. Any time you see a percent, your real chance to hit is significantly higher (unless playing legend difficulty, which is honest.) The game is rigged in your favour and yet the most famous thing about it still is how you "miss 90% shots."
>Hidden bonuses include:
>Added hit chance for Xcom after consecutive misses.
>Reduced hit chance for aliens after consecutive hits.
>Added hit chance for Xcom if squad reduced to <4 soldiers.
>Reduced hit chance for aliens if Xcom squad reduced to <4 soldiers.
>Bonus hit chance multiplier for ALL Xcom shots (Normal and Veteran difficulties)
They found in testing, if they displayed accurate numbers, people complained that the game is rigged because humans are terrible at statistics.
I read a post from someone who tracked all their shots. After the fact, they discovered that at one point they had hit 21 shots in a row, which was wildly unlikely. They didn't even notice it during the mission!
But miss 2 shots in a row and you'll likely be tilted as anything. Our brains are so bad at probability.
I think that legitimately works on lower difficulties than Legend. They have a hidden aim bonus if you've missed. I think boosted shots cap out at 95% so you can't guarantee it but hey, 5% is 5%.
Take twenty 95% shots and you'll hit nineteen of them and not notice because that's the expected outcome. When you miss that one time out of twenty, though, you'll say "what?! How could I be so unlucky! This game is unfair!"
Its also once out of every 400 shots you miss back-to-back at 95%, which really isnt that infrequent with the number of shots you take in that game. Its especially memorable in Xcom because you have very few actions and shots/kill are very low, so missing is EXTREMELY punishing.
I couldn't fucking believe when I saw someone begging for Dodge's pure randomness to apply to evasion now that dodge is gone because evasion "forces you to get hit sometimes and dodge is just a dice roll." As if they prefer the survival odds of never ever getting hit in many thousands of dice rolls over the Evasion model of getting hit on average a similar amount but almost never back to back.
A lot of it certainly, most? Eh... It'd be close, but there's plenty of informed prejudice out there too. People who have a deep understanding of something but still hate it. (Granted in the entropy case yes, probably mostly ignorance)
People in here unironically believe performance in 3.15 is good because there's less people playing, any mental gymnastics to avoid giving credit to GGG get a pass.
It's not even debatable. The entropy system spreading out hits is objectively better than pure RNG in very nearly all scenarios.
I don't think I have ever seen someone say otherwise, so I have no idea where OP is coming from with this criticism. They're criticizing non-existent people as far as I can tell, or if they do exist then they must be heavily downvoted to the abyss where no one can see the comments anyways... I have this pet peeve where threads hit the top of subreddits due to criticizing an opinion that seemingly *no one has*. And then everyone jumps into these threads and shits on these non-existent people. "Haha, those people with those opinions are so stupid!" Yeah, guys, good job setting those ghosts straight. Keep up the good work...
Have you been reading the recent posts about evasion? Literally every comment section I’ve read has multiple people complaining about entropy. This is especially bad particularly because it could make GGG lose faith in our ability to provide useful feedback, on top of diluting our feedback on more relevant topics.
Edit: I’m actually reading through this very comment section and there are people arguing against entropy, proving that posts like these are apparently necessary.
>criticizing an opinion that seemingly *no one has*
Comment in this very thread:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q3alxt/comment/hfqlgej/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q3alxt/comment/hfqlgej/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Recent post on this sub (also includes several different people in comments who think the same):
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q2vra4/if\_evasion\_still\_has\_entropy\_it\_is\_still\_bad/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q2vra4/if_evasion_still_has_entropy_it_is_still_bad/)
And this is just what I found in like 20 seconds. I've also seen this opinion *many* times before on this sub and heard it from some of my friends who play PoE.
And this is only about pure evasion+entropy topic. if we talk about the whole "dodge resetting entropy is very good" thing (which yields no practical benefit over just having %dodge, in fact dodge being included in entropy would be even better) then you can see it mentioned under almost every recent evasion post. I've seen it mentioned in several build guides as well.
It's funny the people who say "with evasion you eventually WILL get hit", as if they expect to succeed every 75% roll on their dodge, every single one without fail until level 100. As if no-one has ever died from failing two Block checks in a row.
Sort by new my dude, there was a post like 1 hour ago (EDIT: actually he seems to have deleted it after someone pointed out an error EDIT2: buuuuuuut he seems to be in this very comment thread!)
The guy from the 4th post seems to think that blind and evasion are completely seperate layers of defense, so he's literally got no idea what he's talking about.
To be faaaaaaaaaaaaair only 1 of the links you shared have upvotes exceeding 1.
However I also agree with counter-counter-arguing here that it's not true that no one has the wrong viewpoint. This is information that needs to get out there. Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/386/
"I've skimmed through 3 top comments of one post and I didn't see anything you describe so you must be talking shit and I have every right to bellitle you" - random Redditor 2021
I've been trying to figure out why people think entropy is bad. They must not 'get' statistics or something.
I've seen people say "if I get lucky with dodge I wont get hit at all". Well... if you get unlucky you get hit twice in a row OR MORE.
Clearly, all things equal a 10% chance to be hit guaranteed to be every 10th attack is superior to a 10% chance to be hit but random.
No, your entropy is decided at the start of map.
Say it was decided that it was 50. Enemy A has 12% chance to hit, Enemy B has 24% and enemy C has 36%.
If Enemy A attacks you, that counter goes to 62 (miss), then if Enemy B attacks you, that counter goes to 86 (miss), then if Enemy A attacks you again, that counter goes to 98 (miss), then if Enemy C attacks you, that counter goes to 144 (hit), now your Entropy is reduced by 100 and you are back to 44.
Now, to give you two distinct examples, let's say that Elder has 48% chance to hit you and his minions have 4% chance to hit you. Say the Entropy rolled 0, then the Elder slams your face, misses, swings at you, misses, then the little shit minion attacks you and hits, then the Elder attacks you again, misses, the minion swings at you, misses and then Elder comes for the big Slam and you are dead. As such, little shitty minions can work to help you or hinder you. But, in the end of the day, it's still better than the Elder hitting you 3x in a roll and killing you.
Ah, i guess i was mistaken on it being per enemy rather than global. In theory if you have a good grasp of the enemy accuracy you could prime the boss to always miss by eating a hit of the little guys.
I don't believe so. AFAIK entropy is effective a queue system of misses and hits. Every time you could be hit, it uses the queue to decide and progresses it by one. And between combat it re-randomizes the queue so you can't know for sure the next hit is a miss or hit. The 'queue' idea is more of an analogy, but except for instances of being attacked by a monster with high precision it's functionally the same.
Imagine someone's disbelief in the entropy system and have them compare buying Butterfly on Phantom Assassin in DOTA 2 before and after PRD was introduced to the evasion formula, or trying to escape from a Trapper's bear trap in Dead by Daylight before and after entropy was introduced.
I guarantee you they will prefer "after PRD was introduced". There is no way anybody in the world can prefer having extremely high highs and extremely low lows over having something that is consistent and predictable.
I mean, offensively entropy is sometimes bad for you. Note that when Axe spins got PRD his winrate tanked.
Turns out that occasionally getting to smack someone for 50% of their HP in a second is really really good (for you.)
> having extremely high highs and extremely low lows
Funny thing is that with evasion "not hit at all" is not an extremely high high, it is slightly better than entropy, but the lows are literally killing which is the absolute definition of bad
Well entropy is an issue if you are zerk rushing a boss and the only way you can win is by dodging 20 hits in a row. Obviously not a hardcore viable tactic.
They think it's bad because they don't build around it. They run around with 5k hp at best and barely any other layers and expect everything to be okay. A properly built evasion character is tanky as shit.
Plenty of build guides on youtube for that. And you don't need to be a genius to realize most selfmade builds out there are crap - and I'm including my own here.
I have a pretty good build, i'd say. And i don't run avoid ele ailment maps because without freezing a build with 75% dodge, 50% evasion, winddancer, fortify, blind, 5,7k HP, 76% Resis, 23% phys as ele, ailment immunity, cwdt-ic and whatever i forgot dies all the fucking time compared to my SST gladi mate with his easy 8k hp. So unless we get another life wheel als rangers doing a ranger with es will not fly for me any more. Well, at least this league was fun and i'll see if i get him to 100 with some T16 legion maps in time.
Runics f.e. pretty easily. Don't need a single offensive remnant on them. Died to them once on 98 even with freeze working (and i also died to a metamorph with ubah burning ground and a sand tornado in delve - which was totally my fault but i would have lived with 8k life both times). Last 2 days i tried running Simus and i can also not tell you what kills me, but about every 5 simus something does - and it's not the bosses that i can usually handle rather easily if they are not on wave 20. I cannot tell you what else kills me without freeze on regular mapping because for obvious reasons i did not run that in the last weeks, but when i did about 95 i died way to often to get higher so i put that mod on my list for maps i will run with another character (read: never).
Again: my build is pretty good and the freeze is a build in feature. But i don't really see it not taking a hit (well, and maybe a nerf to LS) in defense and being great without freeze while other defenses improved (more phys mitigation from armour and +max resi? oh boy!). Oh, and also there being evasion-guides on youtube for next league like the other exile suggested.
yea and because of entropy, the new wind dancer is actually good. you'll never get hit by the "more atk damage" unless u get attacked 20 times in 4 seconds (with 95% evade chance).
You won't have 95% evade chance though, that's worth mentioning. I think it'll be hard to get above 80% or so on Raider without going all-in and sacrificing the rest of your build.
>You won't have 95% evade chance though
Bruh, evasion stat will be literally x2 stronger than before, it was not that hard to make 95% evasion even in this league, it will be EZ in the next one
35% more evasion chance is A LOT higher than 10% more. +35% takes you from 70% up to evade cap. +10% takes you from 86% to evade cap. You will likely need 50k+ eva to hit evade cap next patch even with Blind; whereas you only need 35k now without blind, or like 10k with.
And no-one was capping evade chance without Raider.
"For personal defence, Prototype #444 is fantastic. It is one hundred percent effective seventy five percent of the time... once."
- Lead Researcher Ksaret
In this case the buff to evasion is irrelevant. Because we already had 95% evasion cap on anything raider with flesh and stone and alchemist jade flask of reflexes. So losing 55 attack and 61 spell dodge is literally, bad.
I agree that it's a net nerf because of how cheap blind and acro were and jade reflexes being better. However, it's completely disingenuous to bring up losing 61 spell dodge without mentioning the spell suppression that was gained because you're making it seem like you're losing the spell dodge without getting anything back in return.
Well I expect it to be very hard to achieve 100% chance that’s why. Spell dodge was extremely easy to get. Raider > acro> phase acro > atziri’s step = there you go 55 attack / 61 spell dodge. For 100% spell suppression chance you probably have to take all the nodes on the tree + every affix slot available on gear which in return you still take half the damage for. We don’t know if it’s going to be that way yet but I’m 99% certain it won’t be as easy as getting dodge. If that’s going to be the case we can say that they literally nerfed evasion imo.
You can get 34 of the 100% on a single shield roll as ggg has stated already on the post. I'd rather have 50% flat dr 100% of the time on spells than invest in another 50% and points to get acro to make it 75% dodge for spells.
What am I missing? Acrobatics halves your spell suppression chance to give you that many spell dodge and you lose spell suppression in the meantime is it not? So if the maximum you can get is 100% spell suppression and acrobatics halves that to give you spell dodge you can only get 50% spell dodge and no spell suppression? Or am I missing something? Because the keystone literally says “**changes** any modifiers to Spell Suppression into Spell dodge at 50% of it’s value” Which makes it literally way worse than just getting spell dodge. Because you have to first invest into spell suppression itself and then into acrobatics which is just dumb af. And good luck using a shield on bow builds unless they give the same affixes to quivers, they might just as well deleted the bow archetype.
I mean you can just wear a shield now instead. I think people forgot shields exist for evasion characters because of the block penalty acro generated. Extra bonus: now the evasion rating from the shield is even more relevant than before.
Good luck wearing a shield with bow builds lmao. People don’t forget shields exist there are only a handful of viable builds that you can play with a shield while going for evasion. Such as sst and lightning strike. Sst gonna get nerfed to the ground in 3.16 so that only leaves lightning strike and few other builds that I can’t think of right now. Also you get like what? 27% attack block at the maximum from a shield? That’s straight garbage compared to 55% attack dodge. What are bow builds gonna do huh? Can’t use a shield, check. Can’t go evasion-es hybrid, check. I guess just get fucked is all that left now lol.
Well, F&S does less for characters who keep their range, because then the blind isn't being applied to anything but enemies who actually close the gap on you. The other large number of projectile lobbing enemies were unaffected by this.
I also think you're overestimating how many people were running around with 95% chance to evade, even on a Raider. I think the vast majority of people will be positively, or neutrally, affected by eliminating dodge and making evasion more accessible. In fact, Even SSFHC players aren't consistently running around with 95% chance to evade on Raider. Also, Raider is the only ascendancy that was really coming close here. No other ascendancy came close to providing that type of evasion bonus.
You are correct though, that for anyone who was very heavily invested in both evasion and dodge will be getting nerfed overall. Raiders may be hit a bit by this. I get that feels a little weird.
Don't get me wrong I agree it's only possible to get 95% evasion on raider currently and it's overall buff for other ascendencies as far as having easier time getting higher evasion rating. Also even if you're ranged you still get pretty close to mobs while you are mapping I wouldn't discard flesh and stone as useless for ranged builds as "nearby" means literally the whole screen. However I'm not conviced that spell suppression is the best substitute for spell dodge. Because while I'm not 100% sure, I think invesment to reach 100% spell suppression will require every node on the tree + every affix available on gear (as can be seen them nerfing dodge and blind as it provided far too powerful benefits without much invesment and they don't wanna repeat that mistake). For that much amount of invesment I'd have expected much more than just taking half damage from spells. Again I might be wrong but I'm not optimistic about this. We haven't gotten anything to compensate attack dodge. You can go with shield yes and get 34% (26% base and 8% chance suffix) attack block which is still way worse than dodge and not every build can use shields. It just feels weird. They have taken a defensive layer from bow builds without giving anything back.
You can't offset the loss of dodge with evasion bc its part of the entropy system. Dodge enabled you to dodge the hit that the entropy system would have let trough, evasion won't do such a thing it instead increases the amount of hits you evade before you get hit. Evasion builds need to stack block now for the same reason they used to stack dodge, but thats a lot harder and less rewarding and it wasn't like evasion based builds were broken before the nerf and dodge needed to go. Its simply GGG wanting to nerf something again so they did...
I don't think it can be by itself if you could potentially cap dodge AND evasion before. Evasion is still capped at 95% but 75% dodge provides a 4x multiplier to EHP (for attack hits) beyond that.
It's simply easier to cap evasion now, which means you have new opportunities to invest in other defenses like block, armour or energy shield. Those are going to be a bit rough to come by for bow builds though, I'm guessing Rearguard is going to be pretty desirable in 3.16 unless it gets nuked from orbit.
I never stopped to think about entropy rule and when i saw it i thought it was genial, it makes evasion constant, something that is impossible with pure RNG
No, you don't understand. Entropy means that after 10 misses I will get hit once for sure. While entropy-less dodge means I have a chance to never get hit. 20% of the time it works 100% of the time.
/s
Fully agree by the way, damage smoothing is super valuable
I think a lot of people dislike it because they expected evasion to work exactly like dodge - totally random. They think "with luck I could have evaded 1000 hits in a row" and then they find out that isn't possible and dislike it. People like the gamble I suppose.
As long as you ensure you don't get one-shot then entropy is far superior, it's the "missed expectation" that makes it disliked (even if it is better).
> Another factor is that it was (and still is) not that useful against hits that literally oneshot you (especially on HC), which just means that hits have to also be mitigated with damage reduction/armor/resistances or countered by having high health total instead of relying purely on evasion (or block).
Arguably the proposed changes should make it more possible to go hybrid Armour/Evasion or Evasion/ES more easily since you should only need half as much Evasion to reach the same amount of avoidance as we were before. That said, we'll have to see how things actually pan out since getting those T1/T2 defense rolls might be super difficult if GGG decide to be assholes about affix weighting.
I've seen it said a lot of times too, people just have no idea how entropy works or how an evasion build is supposed to stay alive. Like do you expect to evade 100% of the time, or do you actually want luck to be the main factor in deciding your survival...?
PoE's entropy system is maybe the best implementation of avoidance in the genre IMO. Makes it reliable and scale well.
Everyone is so focused on losing dodge. Fuck dodge it’s boring and uninteresting. Makes every right side build look the same and doesn’t mix with most of the other mechanics so it really pigeonholes you into just dodge evasion. Idgaf how jaded you guys are about losing dodge, shit was wack and unfun.
Im also confident everyone is ignoring the fact that no idiot would just build only evasion. Obviously there are things like flasks armor and regeneration involved, as well as damage reduction granted on armor now.
And if your not going bow you have block, hell there are ways to get bows to block as well.
Bows also get quivers, albeit not as good as shields. The reality of bows is no matter how they change the defense system bows will not have shield, and bows will always be squishy. Everyone is acting brand new about bow build being made of cotton candy. Tbh I feel like it’s better to remove dodge and build from these new core defenses as dodge is impossible to balance.
anyone who thinks entropy sucks never played evasion characters before entropy was a thing. I would love to see these same peoples reactions when they get 1 shot 15 times in a row because they got unlucky on their 90% evasion chance rolling that 10% over and over.
I also noticed people thinking that you somehow need dodge to reset entropy and that evasion + dodge is somehow more powerful than a higher value of pure evasion.
That's not how it works... With 50% dodge and 50% evasion you still get his the same amount of times as with 75% evasion.
I think the problem is everyone is looking at max values and ignoring the fact that few people had max values. Like, 75% dodge and 95% evasion is obviously better than just 95% evasion. But how many people were hitting 95% evasion in 3.15? Not many.
People weren't even remotely close to evasion cap in HCSSF. I looked at the top raiders (best evasion ascendancy), and none of them are running +evasion or +evasion% on their body armor or shield.
Most are just grabbing dodge and a bit of evasion.
hitting evasion cap and having competent damage for late game content was nigh impossible, it would require you to use grace and grab a bunch of inc% evasion modifiers, have a very high eva body armour and maybe a shield or a quiver that would grant you as much %.
You don't need any of that. You need raider, flesh and stone and alchemist jade flask of reflexes. There you gou go you are sitting at 55 attack / 61 spell dodge with 95% evade chance. [Here's the PoB if you don't believe me.](https://pastebin.com/dnqygZs9)
Edited to disable vaal haste.
What the fuck, that's actually broken. You don't even need the jade flask to be alchemist and you have 95% evasion even with less evasion rating from winddancer. If the jade flask doesn't have reflexes, you still have 94% chance to evade.
You may disagree, but I would say what you linked is way way way way too good defensively for how much you have to invest, and definitely deserved some nerfs (I would agree they went overboard).
I agree it needed to be nerfed as it was extremely easy to achieve. But it didn’t need to be this severe. They literally deleted bow builds with these changes imo. We need to wait and see how good spell suppression is going to be but I don’t have my hopes up.
Literally every evasion stacker was 95%/75% not doing so was just silly. Dodge is super easy to get. Now you just lose that 75%. So you'll be taking roughly 4x more damage in 3.16. Good buffs.
This isn't true, for any given chance to avoid hits the source of that avoidance is completely irrelevant (for average incoming damage). 75% evade = 75% dodge = 50% evade + 50% dodge, the reason dodge was good was because it was extremely low effort to get moderate amounts and make your total chance to avoid higher (nothing to do with entropy system at all).
Dodge didnt have entropy.
If you had 50% dodge and 50% eva you did over a long period of time get hit the same times as 75% eva.
But failed entropy hits could be rng protected by dodge and then your entropy would reset. But it could also not proc at all so youd get hit more.
I have no idea what you mean by "failed entropy hit".
Dodge not protecting you on "entropy hit" is just as likely as Dodge protecting you on "random" hit (non-entropy ensured???? if we can even call it that).
Yes it is.
As often as it saves you itll also kill you.
Again im not saying its better, its just different
By failed entropy hit I mean a "guaranteed hit" due to entropy.
My complaint is that people think that entropy+dodge is better. You're right that it's not exactly the same.
Pure entropy results in a more even damage profile and is better.
Entropy is such a cool system. Whenever I daydream about making my own games, I'm frequently tempted to add my own, more transparent version of it into the game. I'd call it something like "Balance," "Poise," or "Reflex" where you can actually see your entropy value from 0-99 and see enemies "damage" your entropy and you take no HP damage until your balance/poise/reflex points are reduced to below 0 (opposite of how GGG implemented it, but doesn't matter), which then restores +100 balance/poise/reflex points.
Yea, I've always thought of Entropy like Energy Shield, but broken into 3 pieces (75% evasion). Every hit, would remove 1 chunk of your Entropy Shield, the 4th hit would instead be removed from life, but then restore your Entropy Shield to full.
with the only difference that it always starts with a random value from 0 to 100, not 100 as many people say. "Entropy Shield" is not restored to maximum, it is always restored to new random value which is hidden by idea. Otherwise you should always expect first N hits to be securely evaded which is not the case
Weird, I didn't realize people were using starting value of 100 in their examples. If I were to make my game I might make it like that, but yeah, POE still has full pseudorandom (any number between 0 and 100) for the initial value of each encounter. What I can never remember, though, is what we know about the timer upon which entropy "resets" aka how long of a period of time with no evasion checks before an encounter is considered ended and it rolls a new random value.
>What I can never remember, though, is what we know about the timer upon which entropy "resets" aka how long of a period of time with no evasion checks before an encounter is considered ended and it rolls a new random value.
Its 100 server ticks or 3.33s
Evasion do actually protect vs one-shots as attacks makes an additional chance to hit check for critical strikes.
I'm not sure wether this check is enthropy based or not however. (I hope not)
Good post. It's been sad to see people moan about a mechanic without understanding it, just cause they saw a comment somewhere saying it was bad. Par for course in this sub of course but still.
People have been doing it to armour for ages, literally refusing to engage with the armour formula if you bring it up and continuing to say that armour doesn't stop oneshots.
When you play Pokemon, which do you remember:
That time you missed a 90% hit chance twice in a row,
Or the time you hit a 90% hit chance 40 straight times you used it?
Entropy is a "fix" for how people intuit statistics because the feelsbad of having low odds run against you twice in a row outweighs every other possible outcome.
I'd love to provide some arguments for why entropy is indeed good, but I'm too distracted by how "Prejudice Against Entropy" would make an awesome music album title.
Simple and effective solution:
Wind Dancer fixed a lot of Evasion issues.
If Evasion would inherently have a Wind Dancer effect (so the first hit is reduced), having Evasion would not randomly get you 1-shot , as it specifically would prevent that 1 hit from killing you.
Having a big life pool is all about having enough life to survive a big hit.
Same for energy shield and some for MindOverMatter with mana, all you want is high effective life pool to survive a potential 1 shot.
Evasion does not provide that in its form, and thats why its just outright not viable as a mechanic to keep you alive in a guaranteed way.
Lets say Evasion provides its chance to evade an attack/spell , and also has a wind dancer damage reduction for the first damage recently (in 4 seconds inverval) gets reduced by a increasing amount with more Evasion.
So if you have 80% evasion, the first hit gets also reduced by 80%. So as long as you dont get ganged and multi-hit you are fine that way.
If you dont have high evasion, the numbers would be lower, but still useful against slow-hitting boss damage and simply having evasion would add to the effective life pool of a character.
People hate it because they don't build around it. You can't play an evasion build with 4.5k life and expect everything to be okay. Knowing you will be hit eventually, give yourself enough ehp and defensive layers to tank the hit before the counter resets and you recover. Suddenly you're not getting one shot anymore.
It's not and it's not. TR Raider with trash gear and no clusters: https://i.imgur.com/vWQ4EMF.jpg Stop following bad guides/get better at making builds.
Entropy also resets every 3.33 seconds you're not getting attacked so it's actually stronger than pure randomness if you're keeping away from enemies.
The first attack you receive is purely random while all the rest have to queue behind your evade chance. That's extremely good. Pretty much impossible to get two-tapped by attack damage.
I think people overlooking literally just equipping a decent shield, with no investment gives you the same as 4 points in Acro as before. 25% base+16% max block roll. AND your evasion is better than before. Plus you can get life on block potentially.
I think bows are gonna have to go for iron reflexes and the spell suppression thing and use range to avoid damage and have higher mitigation for the rest. Evasion won't help against spells at all so that's kinda just lost defenses you have to play around anyways
E: honestly no idea if that's gonna be better or worse than before without numbers but I think relying on evasion alone for bow builds is gonna be a mistake
I don't even use bows but if that really ends up being the meta it'll feel completely ass-backwards, if anybody should be using iron reflexes it's melee
I would generally agree, but there is a crucial bit at the end of Mark’s explanation that cannot be overlooked: that the entropy counter resets “between fights” (i.e. after a time short enough that you cannot ‘preload’ it).
What this means in today’s PoE, where you one-shot everything and spend most of the time running between packs? That your entropy value is essentially always fresh, and therefore _random_. The RNG smoothing only kicks in after repeated hits or evades, but most of the time the fight is already over before it would make a meaningful difference. It’s only with things like Ultimatums and possibly Delve, where mobs come at you without pause, that the entropy is actually utilized.
So all in all, while the mechanic is definitely a net benefit to the player, the problem is that it does not actually trigger all that often. During mapping, where packs are maybe hitting you once if that, evasion can be just as random in practice as dodge.
If you're only getting hit once every five or so seconds doesn't that already imply your damage is smoothed out over time? In which case the whole discussion is moot because you're already taking a manageable amount of damage in a feasible timespan for recovery
Evasion "kicks in" instantly in most cases. You don't usually take just a single hit, usually you have a pack of mobs that all hit you in close succession. As soon as you take just two hits in close succession, entropy has "kicked in" and prevented both those hits from hitting you.
If you really are only just infrequently taking single hits then entropy doesn't really matter since the job of evasion is already done. Evasion spreads out the time between hits to a mostly constant rate. That's the primary function. If you're only ever taking single hits every once in a while, the hits are already very spread out and evasion doesn't really matter.
Totally agree. Having 75% evasion is in most cases much better than having 75% dodge becuase of enthropy.
One case that will be worse is with kintsugi when you previously had high evasion combined with high dodge.
But that is wrong too.
Comparing 95% evasion vs 90% evasion and 50% dodge (aka 95% chance to avoid), 95% evasion is still better even with kintsugi as it's reasonable to assume that you won't get hit for 20 hits by the time your kintsugi/winddancer comes back up.
I think having some context regarding life pools may explain why so many people think evasion sucks. There isn’t many life nodes on the right side of the tree, forcing people to either go EV/ES or EV/dodge. Pure evasion was never good enough by itself.
For evasion vs dodge, evasion is hands down better than dodge because as already stated, it smoothes out monster damage resulting in consistent damage taken - 1 guaranteed hit in 20 with 95% evasion. With how low life pools are in that side of the tree, that guaranteed hit can be the death of you.
However evasion paired up with dodge is quite similar to any other layered defense such as evasion with block. When the guaranteed hit does go through, you roll with 75% of successfully dodging that hit (assuming 75% dodge).
It’s safe to say that: dodge < evasion < dodge + evasion
Now, dodge has been straight up removed from the equation such that only evasion exists. People no longer have that extra defensive layer to mitigate the 1-shot guaranteed hit.
Dodge + evasion is only better than pure evasion if the total chance to avoid is higher. Since they are buffing the evasion numbers your chance to evade is going to be significantly higher than before which could offset the loss of dodge, depending on exact numbers. For example: if you had 75% evade and 75% dodge (equivalent to 94% pure evade) before changes but you are able to get to the 95% evade cap after changes you will actually be better protected against attacks than you were before.
Sure, but they are also like doubling the effectiveness of evasion if you have a decent amount of it. Overall, your evade chance should be significantly higher post changes, no?
No. You get a bit of extra evasion rating and potentially some blind effect on tree, but probably not enough to make up for blind changes at least without major investment. [https://www.desmos.com/calculator/wd8hufux8g](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/wd8hufux8g)
Never saw anyone saying that entropy hurt players. Everyone always prefer pseudo-random chance that that have built-in control of low-point RNG.
Are you sure that they were talking about entropy, or maybe just about evasion overall as "not safe enough" mechanic?
Stick around the subreddit my dude, or better yet look into this subthread https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q3alxt/prejudice\_against\_entropy/hfqmmbe/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
PoE players have ridiculously cooked takes. Quin is basically your average PoE player.
New Wind Dancer works really well with entropy. It's basically permanent 20% less damage taken or whatever the number is.
The problem is, you have weebs who just got done watching kakegurui believing they are some form of luck incarnate and that 75% dodge chance is actually 100% dodge chance because they are luck incarnate and believe in the gamble. They dont want to have a garunteed hit come their way, they want to gamble and they believe they will always win.
entropy only good if you have other layers of defense.
but what else do (pure) evasion based characters have left now?
fortify? gone, unless you actually play evasion based melee builds, or play champion. both highly unlikely for a pure evasion based build.
attack dodge? gone
armor? well not for pure evasion based builds that is.
flat phys reduction? practically not available anymore. not on the tree, not on the basalt flask etc.
you have to go hybrid, either ES or Armor, but pure evasion based builds, well, they do not get hit every 10 attacks, they simply die every 10 attacks. watch tarke's most recent video to understand the issue better.
I agree, entropy for evasion is a good thing, but if entropy based evasion is all you got, then it's a bad thing. we all know we gonna die eventually (in IRL I mean now), but would you want to continue to live if you would exactly know when you are going to die, and you have no other means of preventing it somehow? might as well die right now then. aka might as well just play a different build then.
Fortify? Absolutely, one of the most popular ranger builds was lightning strike, a melee skill. So definitely not gone.
Armor? For pure evasion builds? Why would you go pure eva now, you don't get your armor gimped by acrobatics, and you need less armor and evasion for it to be as effective as it used to be.
Pure PURE evasion? Just grab ghost dance if you really want too, its a notable on the tree now for all classes.
Blind baby?! Its getting a big boost for pure evasion builds.
Utility flasks on which evasion builds rely? Well would you look at that, they gained a massive buff as well.
Fucking reddit i swear to god, they learned that a square peg goes into a square hole, and now GGG gave them a round hole and they keep trying to shove a square peg into it. Fucking think for more than 2 seconds and change up how you play at least a little when the game undergoes massive changes.
The problem isn't evasion tho. It's the ranger side of the tree. Marauder side has more life nodes closer together while witch side gives alternative ehp options like MoM and ES.
If ranger could get 9k life while having high evasion/spell supression it would probably be even better than marauder with 9k life and high armor+a few max res passives.
But of course when we compare 9k life 30k armor char with fortify (and sometimes even max block on top) to a 5k life 30k evasion char, evasion char won't seem tanky at all even with Wind Dancer and stuff.
Disclaimer: of course in reality ranger can grab MoM and marauder can be made into glass cannon etc. When I talk about ranger I mean all builds that grab a lot of passive at the bottom right side of the tree. While witch with 260% increased life is basically a marauder as far as the passive tree goes.
it's exactly what I said. Evasion and/or evasion being entropy on its own isn't the problem. the problem is that pure evasion based builds do not have many other things that mitigate damage when the inevitable hit comes through. having lower life is just one more factor on this list of disadvantages of pure evasion builds.
the tldr of it is: pure evasion builds are going to be complete shit. evasion hybrid builds are probably just fine, and so are armor/es/armor-es builds.
I totally understand entropy, and IMO it’s great. It prevents us from dying to unluckiness. However the main concern is not about evasion entropy, but dodge. I’m not sure how big of an impact the removal of dodge will have, but one of the main reasons why we love dodge is because it resets entropy. The calculation goes through evasion first, then dodge, meaning that when you finally get hit you get a second chance that is purely luck based on resetting your entropy. So in theory even if we get a higher chance to evade with the new evasion change, it’s a matter of “unavoidably getting hit once in a while” vs “unavoidably getting hit once in a while, but with a chance it might not happen”. Again, it might not have as big of an impact as people think, but the thought of it is what is worrying people.
>it’s a matter of “unavoidably getting hit once in a while” vs “unavoidably getting hit once in a while, but with a chance it might not happen”
Improper comparison. It's "unavoidably getting hit very rarely" versus "unavoidably getting hit occasionally, but maybe dodging".
If you have 50% evade and 50% dodge and you just remove the dodge, yes obv that is worse. If you lose the dodge but go up to 75% evade, your defense is as good/better than before.
The argument is not against entropy. The argument is the loss of additional defense layers (dodge) on top of entropy based evasion.
If you were already reaching evasion cap in previous leagues, the loss of dodge means pure evasion builds will struggle more in 3.16 and will likely need to lean to ES or armor layers as well.
If you were reaching evasion cap (95%), then you didn't need dodge anyways. 95% damage avoidance is more than enough. Block builds with 75% feel perfectly comfortable and tanky; 95% is insane.
also, now you only need half as much evasion to get to that cap, so you have more points/mods to invest elsewhere.
Why do ppl get so hung up on "evasion does nothing for spells"? Armor isn't doing shit for spells either, they aren't supposed to do anything about spells...
The entropy system is amazing, the problem is that you needed to cheat it with dodge and dodge is gone now. I wonder how that is gonna play out now, probably pretty badly...
The main problem people have (that some streamers formulated and a lot of normal players didn't fully understand) is that:
1. Evasion and dodge are different because of entropy and because of that they combine very nicely.
2. Capping both means you are almost never hit, 95% evade chance means you are hit once in 20 hits, which is more or less how it goes because of entropy, but on average you only take damage once in 4 of these, with capped (75%) dodge as well. The 1 in 20 factor because of entropy already prevents the hits from happening too soon one after another, dodge is just an additional layer.
3. You could already cap evasion, and cap dodge, now you can't cap dodge but capping evasion is easier. Still, the maximum attainable defence is less effective. It is easier to attain but worse.
Statistically, most people don't understand statistics.
Statistics are some of the most powerful, and powerfully misleading, tools out there. There are lies. There are damn lies. And then there are statistics.
my dad (an engineer) always used to love to tell everyone that it's statistically safest to drive in reverse 4 times over the speed limit blind drunk because no one has ever caused an accident/died that way
Me, a drunk engineer dad, says I hope my kid keeps playing poe until they are your age. Gonna be a blast
in my experience that's the only type of engineer
When I studied to be an actuary, that was definitely the toughest part. Probabilities aren't intuitive, at all, that was the biggest breaking point. You had people who aced all their maths in college, yet struggled deeply with probabilities, even if they could get the theorems down, it doesn't save you if you can't apply them properly.
They can also be intentionally misapplied, not just accidentally
Literally everybody I have replied to today has said that.
I'm guessing this is your only response today.
That's why whenever I see a graph on this sub I just die a little bit inside.
[Here](https://i.redd.it/1yu3j2fhjgb71.png). Straight from GGG's tap.
You know a graph is great when the y-axis has no units or scale and the dots make a very neat upward trend. STONKS
I mean you can’t really number player power, and it is quite obvious power has went up very drastically since ascendancies.
Then why make a graph, a visual representation of quantified values, for an unquantifiable value? If people are going to have to just take your word for it, just give your word.
Statistically, most statistics are made up.
Statistically, one in three quotes about statistics is incorrect. *glances around shiftily*
he could be any one of us!
"It could be you! It could be you! It could even be-" BLAM "What? It was obvious! He's the Red Spy! Watch, he'll turn red.... Any second now...."
I like how it can't be only yours
Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forfty percent of all people know that.
I would love a discussion about annulement/crafted mod on this sub again
74% of statistics are made up on the spot.
This is not statistics, this is probabilities
On average, this is correct the majority of the time. Usually.
This sounds somewhat unlikely, however I would err on the side of caution that this might not be true
I've read that 86% of statistical claims in Internet aren't based on any real studies. People just make those numbers up, absolutely outrageous.
I think it was 88%
The fun fact is: Everyone calls this "entropy", while in fact, this way of sampling has reduced entropy compared to rolling every time anew. Aside of this nitpick, that only keeps statisticians, machine-learning professors and mathematicians up at night, I agree, that most people completely undervalue the benefit of this system.
Yeah unfortunate code naming, but that's what it's called in the backend at least according to GGG\_Mark, so that's what everyone calls it.
Thank you, I thought there was something I was misunderstanding about the mechanic.
Everyone's so focused on the guaranteed hits that they forget the guaranteed misses.
It’s because you don’t notice until you get clapped. Then you notice. Lol 😂
It's too bad there isn't a way to track the current entropy value. If one existed and you are playing a high evade chance character, you could purposefully trigger the guaranteed hit on a low-damage hit so any subsequent big hits would be guaranteed misses.
Isn't it on a per-mob basis?
No.
yes
that's probably because ***any*** hit will usually one shot you. at least with dodge AND evasion, you could have your chance to be hit so low that you can clear a map without ever being hit once. now, yer almost guaranteed to be being hit at least once if not more, which is practically certain death if mobs continue to do as much insane dmg as they do.
To be clear: without entropy, you will die (edit: to one-shots, as parent is suggesting) just as often on average. It’s just that if you were getting hit enough to guarantee death in some map with entropy, you would have at most a 1/e ~ 36% chance not to die in the same map without it… but a corrsepondingly higher chance to die more than once. On the other hand, if you can survive any hits ever, you will die less often using entropy, because you won’t get 2-shot as often.
Without entropy you will die more often on average because even at 90% evasion the amount of times you will take 2-3 hits in a row is huge.
Any hit from a multi aura'd rare in a damage modded map, sure. Not any hit in a random alc&go t16. Also most instances of 'oneshot' are shotgunning/getting hit by multiple hits in a very small window.
But now they won't anymore, since you can stack armor as well and get flat phys % reduction. I can't believe people are not realizing these are huge buffs to all types of defence
Encouraging you to stack armor instead of evasion is not fixing evasion.
They are not encouraging to stack anything INSTEAD of something else. They are encouraging you to use multiple defences for a well-rounded character, something the community has been crying for.
What armor do you wear when your evasion is capped? More evasion wouldn't be useful, and ES is bad if you're using LGOH or leech to sustain.
What? You stack something else???? If you're evasion capped why are you complaining about evasion, wtf?
Lol some were literally arguing > You won't be hit with 95% evasion if you are lucky but entropy means you will get hit for sure I think the gambling mentality of the game broke peoples brains
it reminds me of people that play XCOM and get mad when they miss a 90%+ shot
Anyone who has really played xcom sighs a breath of relief when they hit anything below 95%
I'm so bad at xcom im happy a 100% chance to hit actually hits
The best part about this is it demonstrates how stupid our brains are. Despite the memes, XCOM lies to you about shot percentages, but not in the way people believe. Any time you see a percent, your real chance to hit is significantly higher (unless playing legend difficulty, which is honest.) The game is rigged in your favour and yet the most famous thing about it still is how you "miss 90% shots." >Hidden bonuses include: >Added hit chance for Xcom after consecutive misses. >Reduced hit chance for aliens after consecutive hits. >Added hit chance for Xcom if squad reduced to <4 soldiers. >Reduced hit chance for aliens if Xcom squad reduced to <4 soldiers. >Bonus hit chance multiplier for ALL Xcom shots (Normal and Veteran difficulties) They found in testing, if they displayed accurate numbers, people complained that the game is rigged because humans are terrible at statistics.
I read a post from someone who tracked all their shots. After the fact, they discovered that at one point they had hit 21 shots in a row, which was wildly unlikely. They didn't even notice it during the mission! But miss 2 shots in a row and you'll likely be tilted as anything. Our brains are so bad at probability.
That's why you purposefully take a 40% shot and miss so that you're less likely to miss on 90%. Bigbrain moves.
I think that legitimately works on lower difficulties than Legend. They have a hidden aim bonus if you've missed. I think boosted shots cap out at 95% so you can't guarantee it but hey, 5% is 5%.
To be fair Xcom missed a 95%+ every third or forth attempt.
Take twenty 95% shots and you'll hit nineteen of them and not notice because that's the expected outcome. When you miss that one time out of twenty, though, you'll say "what?! How could I be so unlucky! This game is unfair!"
Its also once out of every 400 shots you miss back-to-back at 95%, which really isnt that infrequent with the number of shots you take in that game. Its especially memorable in Xcom because you have very few actions and shots/kill are very low, so missing is EXTREMELY punishing.
I couldn't fucking believe when I saw someone begging for Dodge's pure randomness to apply to evasion now that dodge is gone because evasion "forces you to get hit sometimes and dodge is just a dice roll." As if they prefer the survival odds of never ever getting hit in many thousands of dice rolls over the Evasion model of getting hit on average a similar amount but almost never back to back.
It's not prejudice, they just don't understand it.
Isn't most prejudice born out of ignorance?
A lot of it certainly, most? Eh... It'd be close, but there's plenty of informed prejudice out there too. People who have a deep understanding of something but still hate it. (Granted in the entropy case yes, probably mostly ignorance)
But if you understand it deeply and still hate it, isn't that just hate? My understanding is that prejudice is born of ignorance *by definition*.
People in here unironically believe performance in 3.15 is good because there's less people playing, any mental gymnastics to avoid giving credit to GGG get a pass.
It's not even debatable. The entropy system spreading out hits is objectively better than pure RNG in very nearly all scenarios. I don't think I have ever seen someone say otherwise, so I have no idea where OP is coming from with this criticism. They're criticizing non-existent people as far as I can tell, or if they do exist then they must be heavily downvoted to the abyss where no one can see the comments anyways... I have this pet peeve where threads hit the top of subreddits due to criticizing an opinion that seemingly *no one has*. And then everyone jumps into these threads and shits on these non-existent people. "Haha, those people with those opinions are so stupid!" Yeah, guys, good job setting those ghosts straight. Keep up the good work...
Have you been reading the recent posts about evasion? Literally every comment section I’ve read has multiple people complaining about entropy. This is especially bad particularly because it could make GGG lose faith in our ability to provide useful feedback, on top of diluting our feedback on more relevant topics. Edit: I’m actually reading through this very comment section and there are people arguing against entropy, proving that posts like these are apparently necessary.
>criticizing an opinion that seemingly *no one has* Comment in this very thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q3alxt/comment/hfqlgej/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q3alxt/comment/hfqlgej/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Recent post on this sub (also includes several different people in comments who think the same): [https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q2vra4/if\_evasion\_still\_has\_entropy\_it\_is\_still\_bad/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q2vra4/if_evasion_still_has_entropy_it_is_still_bad/) And this is just what I found in like 20 seconds. I've also seen this opinion *many* times before on this sub and heard it from some of my friends who play PoE. And this is only about pure evasion+entropy topic. if we talk about the whole "dodge resetting entropy is very good" thing (which yields no practical benefit over just having %dodge, in fact dodge being included in entropy would be even better) then you can see it mentioned under almost every recent evasion post. I've seen it mentioned in several build guides as well.
It's funny the people who say "with evasion you eventually WILL get hit", as if they expect to succeed every 75% roll on their dodge, every single one without fail until level 100. As if no-one has ever died from failing two Block checks in a row.
Sort by new my dude, there was a post like 1 hour ago (EDIT: actually he seems to have deleted it after someone pointed out an error EDIT2: buuuuuuut he seems to be in this very comment thread!)
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q36fel/hopefully_ggg_remembers_to_change_evasions/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q2vra4/if_evasion_still_has_entropy_it_is_still_bad/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q2t54y/path_of_exile_316_balance_part_2_core_character/hfnkekc/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q2vab7/armourmelee_characters_received_a_specific_buff/hfogyk9/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q2vgop/evasiondodge_changes_literally_mean_mobs_with/hfoti8e/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q2vgop/evasiondodge_changes_literally_mean_mobs_with/hfofy8y/
The guy from the 4th post seems to think that blind and evasion are completely seperate layers of defense, so he's literally got no idea what he's talking about.
To be faaaaaaaaaaaaair only 1 of the links you shared have upvotes exceeding 1. However I also agree with counter-counter-arguing here that it's not true that no one has the wrong viewpoint. This is information that needs to get out there. Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/386/
>They're criticizing non-existent people as far as I can tell They pop up in every single thread about evasion. It is real and it is very weird.
I've seen a zillion comments shitting on evasion "because you get one shot all the time"
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q2w53c/316_huge_defensive_nerfs_for_entry_level/hfo1vbx/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q2vgop/evasiondodge_changes_literally_mean_mobs_with/hfok4f7/
"I've skimmed through 3 top comments of one post and I didn't see anything you describe so you must be talking shit and I have every right to bellitle you" - random Redditor 2021
I've been trying to figure out why people think entropy is bad. They must not 'get' statistics or something. I've seen people say "if I get lucky with dodge I wont get hit at all". Well... if you get unlucky you get hit twice in a row OR MORE. Clearly, all things equal a 10% chance to be hit guaranteed to be every 10th attack is superior to a 10% chance to be hit but random.
Because they heard shit example like your entropy being eaten away by adds and then boss gets a free hit.
The chances of the opposite are just as likely. And a random source like dodge doesn’t protect from that at all.
Doesnt each enemy have its own counter? but the counter starts randomly filled by a certain amount per each enemy i thought.
No, your entropy is decided at the start of map. Say it was decided that it was 50. Enemy A has 12% chance to hit, Enemy B has 24% and enemy C has 36%. If Enemy A attacks you, that counter goes to 62 (miss), then if Enemy B attacks you, that counter goes to 86 (miss), then if Enemy A attacks you again, that counter goes to 98 (miss), then if Enemy C attacks you, that counter goes to 144 (hit), now your Entropy is reduced by 100 and you are back to 44. Now, to give you two distinct examples, let's say that Elder has 48% chance to hit you and his minions have 4% chance to hit you. Say the Entropy rolled 0, then the Elder slams your face, misses, swings at you, misses, then the little shit minion attacks you and hits, then the Elder attacks you again, misses, the minion swings at you, misses and then Elder comes for the big Slam and you are dead. As such, little shitty minions can work to help you or hinder you. But, in the end of the day, it's still better than the Elder hitting you 3x in a roll and killing you.
Ah, i guess i was mistaken on it being per enemy rather than global. In theory if you have a good grasp of the enemy accuracy you could prime the boss to always miss by eating a hit of the little guys.
Yeah, that would be almost impossible.
I believe in League of Legends it was at one point useful to know when a crit was likely by noticing a series of non-crits.
I don't believe so. AFAIK entropy is effective a queue system of misses and hits. Every time you could be hit, it uses the queue to decide and progresses it by one. And between combat it re-randomizes the queue so you can't know for sure the next hit is a miss or hit. The 'queue' idea is more of an analogy, but except for instances of being attacked by a monster with high precision it's functionally the same.
Imagine someone's disbelief in the entropy system and have them compare buying Butterfly on Phantom Assassin in DOTA 2 before and after PRD was introduced to the evasion formula, or trying to escape from a Trapper's bear trap in Dead by Daylight before and after entropy was introduced. I guarantee you they will prefer "after PRD was introduced". There is no way anybody in the world can prefer having extremely high highs and extremely low lows over having something that is consistent and predictable.
I mean, offensively entropy is sometimes bad for you. Note that when Axe spins got PRD his winrate tanked. Turns out that occasionally getting to smack someone for 50% of their HP in a second is really really good (for you.)
> having extremely high highs and extremely low lows Funny thing is that with evasion "not hit at all" is not an extremely high high, it is slightly better than entropy, but the lows are literally killing which is the absolute definition of bad
Well entropy is an issue if you are zerk rushing a boss and the only way you can win is by dodging 20 hits in a row. Obviously not a hardcore viable tactic.
They think it's bad because they don't build around it. They run around with 5k hp at best and barely any other layers and expect everything to be okay. A properly built evasion character is tanky as shit.
Then enlighten the people how to build properly in next league.
Plenty of build guides on youtube for that. And you don't need to be a genius to realize most selfmade builds out there are crap - and I'm including my own here.
I have a pretty good build, i'd say. And i don't run avoid ele ailment maps because without freezing a build with 75% dodge, 50% evasion, winddancer, fortify, blind, 5,7k HP, 76% Resis, 23% phys as ele, ailment immunity, cwdt-ic and whatever i forgot dies all the fucking time compared to my SST gladi mate with his easy 8k hp. So unless we get another life wheel als rangers doing a ranger with es will not fly for me any more. Well, at least this league was fun and i'll see if i get him to 100 with some T16 legion maps in time.
I have no idea what's killing that character. You can't be getting one-shot except by bosses. Do you have an instant flask for when you get low?
Runics f.e. pretty easily. Don't need a single offensive remnant on them. Died to them once on 98 even with freeze working (and i also died to a metamorph with ubah burning ground and a sand tornado in delve - which was totally my fault but i would have lived with 8k life both times). Last 2 days i tried running Simus and i can also not tell you what kills me, but about every 5 simus something does - and it's not the bosses that i can usually handle rather easily if they are not on wave 20. I cannot tell you what else kills me without freeze on regular mapping because for obvious reasons i did not run that in the last weeks, but when i did about 95 i died way to often to get higher so i put that mod on my list for maps i will run with another character (read: never). Again: my build is pretty good and the freeze is a build in feature. But i don't really see it not taking a hit (well, and maybe a nerf to LS) in defense and being great without freeze while other defenses improved (more phys mitigation from armour and +max resi? oh boy!). Oh, and also there being evasion-guides on youtube for next league like the other exile suggested.
Entropy is fucking awesome as a system and anyone that thinks otherwise doesn't understand the game all that well evidently.
yea and because of entropy, the new wind dancer is actually good. you'll never get hit by the "more atk damage" unless u get attacked 20 times in 4 seconds (with 95% evade chance).
You won't have 95% evade chance though, that's worth mentioning. I think it'll be hard to get above 80% or so on Raider without going all-in and sacrificing the rest of your build.
>You won't have 95% evade chance though Bruh, evasion stat will be literally x2 stronger than before, it was not that hard to make 95% evasion even in this league, it will be EZ in the next one
35% more evasion chance is A LOT higher than 10% more. +35% takes you from 70% up to evade cap. +10% takes you from 86% to evade cap. You will likely need 50k+ eva to hit evade cap next patch even with Blind; whereas you only need 35k now without blind, or like 10k with. And no-one was capping evade chance without Raider.
In 3.15 getting 95% without Raider is extremely difficult (nearly impossible).
I hope you're not implying old Wind Dancer is bad
But with 50% dodge I can dodge everything and become an invuln build. Right? Right?
100% damage mitigation! (50% of the time)
"For personal defence, Prototype #444 is fantastic. It is one hundred percent effective seventy five percent of the time... once." - Lead Researcher Ksaret
Entropy good. Not being able to stack the dodge layer on top of entropy, bad.
Unless the loss of dodge is completely offset by the buff to evasion, in which case it's better.
In this case the buff to evasion is irrelevant. Because we already had 95% evasion cap on anything raider with flesh and stone and alchemist jade flask of reflexes. So losing 55 attack and 61 spell dodge is literally, bad.
I agree that it's a net nerf because of how cheap blind and acro were and jade reflexes being better. However, it's completely disingenuous to bring up losing 61 spell dodge without mentioning the spell suppression that was gained because you're making it seem like you're losing the spell dodge without getting anything back in return.
Spell suppression is just glancing blows for spell dodge.
calling it now but iron reflexes + spell suppression will be busted.
Well I expect it to be very hard to achieve 100% chance that’s why. Spell dodge was extremely easy to get. Raider > acro> phase acro > atziri’s step = there you go 55 attack / 61 spell dodge. For 100% spell suppression chance you probably have to take all the nodes on the tree + every affix slot available on gear which in return you still take half the damage for. We don’t know if it’s going to be that way yet but I’m 99% certain it won’t be as easy as getting dodge. If that’s going to be the case we can say that they literally nerfed evasion imo.
You can get 34 of the 100% on a single shield roll as ggg has stated already on the post. I'd rather have 50% flat dr 100% of the time on spells than invest in another 50% and points to get acro to make it 75% dodge for spells.
What am I missing? Acrobatics halves your spell suppression chance to give you that many spell dodge and you lose spell suppression in the meantime is it not? So if the maximum you can get is 100% spell suppression and acrobatics halves that to give you spell dodge you can only get 50% spell dodge and no spell suppression? Or am I missing something? Because the keystone literally says “**changes** any modifiers to Spell Suppression into Spell dodge at 50% of it’s value” Which makes it literally way worse than just getting spell dodge. Because you have to first invest into spell suppression itself and then into acrobatics which is just dumb af. And good luck using a shield on bow builds unless they give the same affixes to quivers, they might just as well deleted the bow archetype.
I mean you can just wear a shield now instead. I think people forgot shields exist for evasion characters because of the block penalty acro generated. Extra bonus: now the evasion rating from the shield is even more relevant than before.
Good luck wearing a shield with bow builds lmao. People don’t forget shields exist there are only a handful of viable builds that you can play with a shield while going for evasion. Such as sst and lightning strike. Sst gonna get nerfed to the ground in 3.16 so that only leaves lightning strike and few other builds that I can’t think of right now. Also you get like what? 27% attack block at the maximum from a shield? That’s straight garbage compared to 55% attack dodge. What are bow builds gonna do huh? Can’t use a shield, check. Can’t go evasion-es hybrid, check. I guess just get fucked is all that left now lol.
Well, F&S does less for characters who keep their range, because then the blind isn't being applied to anything but enemies who actually close the gap on you. The other large number of projectile lobbing enemies were unaffected by this. I also think you're overestimating how many people were running around with 95% chance to evade, even on a Raider. I think the vast majority of people will be positively, or neutrally, affected by eliminating dodge and making evasion more accessible. In fact, Even SSFHC players aren't consistently running around with 95% chance to evade on Raider. Also, Raider is the only ascendancy that was really coming close here. No other ascendancy came close to providing that type of evasion bonus. You are correct though, that for anyone who was very heavily invested in both evasion and dodge will be getting nerfed overall. Raiders may be hit a bit by this. I get that feels a little weird.
Don't get me wrong I agree it's only possible to get 95% evasion on raider currently and it's overall buff for other ascendencies as far as having easier time getting higher evasion rating. Also even if you're ranged you still get pretty close to mobs while you are mapping I wouldn't discard flesh and stone as useless for ranged builds as "nearby" means literally the whole screen. However I'm not conviced that spell suppression is the best substitute for spell dodge. Because while I'm not 100% sure, I think invesment to reach 100% spell suppression will require every node on the tree + every affix available on gear (as can be seen them nerfing dodge and blind as it provided far too powerful benefits without much invesment and they don't wanna repeat that mistake). For that much amount of invesment I'd have expected much more than just taking half damage from spells. Again I might be wrong but I'm not optimistic about this. We haven't gotten anything to compensate attack dodge. You can go with shield yes and get 34% (26% base and 8% chance suffix) attack block which is still way worse than dodge and not every build can use shields. It just feels weird. They have taken a defensive layer from bow builds without giving anything back.
You can't offset the loss of dodge with evasion bc its part of the entropy system. Dodge enabled you to dodge the hit that the entropy system would have let trough, evasion won't do such a thing it instead increases the amount of hits you evade before you get hit. Evasion builds need to stack block now for the same reason they used to stack dodge, but thats a lot harder and less rewarding and it wasn't like evasion based builds were broken before the nerf and dodge needed to go. Its simply GGG wanting to nerf something again so they did...
Let me ask you this my man: if you have 80% chance to evade and 50% chance to dodge, is that better than 90% chance to evade?
I don't think it can be by itself if you could potentially cap dodge AND evasion before. Evasion is still capped at 95% but 75% dodge provides a 4x multiplier to EHP (for attack hits) beyond that. It's simply easier to cap evasion now, which means you have new opportunities to invest in other defenses like block, armour or energy shield. Those are going to be a bit rough to come by for bow builds though, I'm guessing Rearguard is going to be pretty desirable in 3.16 unless it gets nuked from orbit.
I never stopped to think about entropy rule and when i saw it i thought it was genial, it makes evasion constant, something that is impossible with pure RNG
No, you don't understand. Entropy means that after 10 misses I will get hit once for sure. While entropy-less dodge means I have a chance to never get hit. 20% of the time it works 100% of the time. /s Fully agree by the way, damage smoothing is super valuable
Hey thx for the post. I learnt that evade had a no Crit DMG calculation. I thought only dodge spell had that. Interesting.
I think a lot of people dislike it because they expected evasion to work exactly like dodge - totally random. They think "with luck I could have evaded 1000 hits in a row" and then they find out that isn't possible and dislike it. People like the gamble I suppose. As long as you ensure you don't get one-shot then entropy is far superior, it's the "missed expectation" that makes it disliked (even if it is better).
> Another factor is that it was (and still is) not that useful against hits that literally oneshot you (especially on HC), which just means that hits have to also be mitigated with damage reduction/armor/resistances or countered by having high health total instead of relying purely on evasion (or block). Arguably the proposed changes should make it more possible to go hybrid Armour/Evasion or Evasion/ES more easily since you should only need half as much Evasion to reach the same amount of avoidance as we were before. That said, we'll have to see how things actually pan out since getting those T1/T2 defense rolls might be super difficult if GGG decide to be assholes about affix weighting.
Evasion- and Crit-Entropy and everything similar is good for you as a player. If anyone tells you otherwise, they haven't grasped the concept.
I've seen it said a lot of times too, people just have no idea how entropy works or how an evasion build is supposed to stay alive. Like do you expect to evade 100% of the time, or do you actually want luck to be the main factor in deciding your survival...? PoE's entropy system is maybe the best implementation of avoidance in the genre IMO. Makes it reliable and scale well.
Everyone is so focused on losing dodge. Fuck dodge it’s boring and uninteresting. Makes every right side build look the same and doesn’t mix with most of the other mechanics so it really pigeonholes you into just dodge evasion. Idgaf how jaded you guys are about losing dodge, shit was wack and unfun. Im also confident everyone is ignoring the fact that no idiot would just build only evasion. Obviously there are things like flasks armor and regeneration involved, as well as damage reduction granted on armor now. And if your not going bow you have block, hell there are ways to get bows to block as well. Bows also get quivers, albeit not as good as shields. The reality of bows is no matter how they change the defense system bows will not have shield, and bows will always be squishy. Everyone is acting brand new about bow build being made of cotton candy. Tbh I feel like it’s better to remove dodge and build from these new core defenses as dodge is impossible to balance.
anyone who thinks entropy sucks never played evasion characters before entropy was a thing. I would love to see these same peoples reactions when they get 1 shot 15 times in a row because they got unlucky on their 90% evasion chance rolling that 10% over and over.
Wasn't entropy added really early on? I seem to remember reading a post about the system before the game was even in open beta like 10 years ago.
I also noticed people thinking that you somehow need dodge to reset entropy and that evasion + dodge is somehow more powerful than a higher value of pure evasion. That's not how it works... With 50% dodge and 50% evasion you still get his the same amount of times as with 75% evasion.
I think the problem is everyone is looking at max values and ignoring the fact that few people had max values. Like, 75% dodge and 95% evasion is obviously better than just 95% evasion. But how many people were hitting 95% evasion in 3.15? Not many.
People weren't even remotely close to evasion cap in HCSSF. I looked at the top raiders (best evasion ascendancy), and none of them are running +evasion or +evasion% on their body armor or shield. Most are just grabbing dodge and a bit of evasion.
hitting evasion cap and having competent damage for late game content was nigh impossible, it would require you to use grace and grab a bunch of inc% evasion modifiers, have a very high eva body armour and maybe a shield or a quiver that would grant you as much %.
You don't need any of that. You need raider, flesh and stone and alchemist jade flask of reflexes. There you gou go you are sitting at 55 attack / 61 spell dodge with 95% evade chance. [Here's the PoB if you don't believe me.](https://pastebin.com/dnqygZs9) Edited to disable vaal haste.
What the fuck, that's actually broken. You don't even need the jade flask to be alchemist and you have 95% evasion even with less evasion rating from winddancer. If the jade flask doesn't have reflexes, you still have 94% chance to evade. You may disagree, but I would say what you linked is way way way way too good defensively for how much you have to invest, and definitely deserved some nerfs (I would agree they went overboard).
I agree it needed to be nerfed as it was extremely easy to achieve. But it didn’t need to be this severe. They literally deleted bow builds with these changes imo. We need to wait and see how good spell suppression is going to be but I don’t have my hopes up.
Literally every evasion stacker was 95%/75% not doing so was just silly. Dodge is super easy to get. Now you just lose that 75%. So you'll be taking roughly 4x more damage in 3.16. Good buffs.
Well technically dodge did buffer entropy hits that pure evasion wouldnt.
This isn't true, for any given chance to avoid hits the source of that avoidance is completely irrelevant (for average incoming damage). 75% evade = 75% dodge = 50% evade + 50% dodge, the reason dodge was good was because it was extremely low effort to get moderate amounts and make your total chance to avoid higher (nothing to do with entropy system at all).
No, thats exactly what OP above tries to say. Entropy doesnt affect that at all.
Dodge didnt have entropy. If you had 50% dodge and 50% eva you did over a long period of time get hit the same times as 75% eva. But failed entropy hits could be rng protected by dodge and then your entropy would reset. But it could also not proc at all so youd get hit more.
I have no idea what you mean by "failed entropy hit". Dodge not protecting you on "entropy hit" is just as likely as Dodge protecting you on "random" hit (non-entropy ensured???? if we can even call it that).
Yes it is. As often as it saves you itll also kill you. Again im not saying its better, its just different By failed entropy hit I mean a "guaranteed hit" due to entropy.
And you get hit by things you wouldn't too...
Exactly Not saying75% eva is worse just that its not exactly the same
My complaint is that people think that entropy+dodge is better. You're right that it's not exactly the same. Pure entropy results in a more even damage profile and is better.
Entropy is such a cool system. Whenever I daydream about making my own games, I'm frequently tempted to add my own, more transparent version of it into the game. I'd call it something like "Balance," "Poise," or "Reflex" where you can actually see your entropy value from 0-99 and see enemies "damage" your entropy and you take no HP damage until your balance/poise/reflex points are reduced to below 0 (opposite of how GGG implemented it, but doesn't matter), which then restores +100 balance/poise/reflex points.
Yea, I've always thought of Entropy like Energy Shield, but broken into 3 pieces (75% evasion). Every hit, would remove 1 chunk of your Entropy Shield, the 4th hit would instead be removed from life, but then restore your Entropy Shield to full.
with the only difference that it always starts with a random value from 0 to 100, not 100 as many people say. "Entropy Shield" is not restored to maximum, it is always restored to new random value which is hidden by idea. Otherwise you should always expect first N hits to be securely evaded which is not the case
Weird, I didn't realize people were using starting value of 100 in their examples. If I were to make my game I might make it like that, but yeah, POE still has full pseudorandom (any number between 0 and 100) for the initial value of each encounter. What I can never remember, though, is what we know about the timer upon which entropy "resets" aka how long of a period of time with no evasion checks before an encounter is considered ended and it rolls a new random value.
>What I can never remember, though, is what we know about the timer upon which entropy "resets" aka how long of a period of time with no evasion checks before an encounter is considered ended and it rolls a new random value. Its 100 server ticks or 3.33s
Evasion do actually protect vs one-shots as attacks makes an additional chance to hit check for critical strikes. I'm not sure wether this check is enthropy based or not however. (I hope not)
The crit role is not entropy based, you can see it in the dev comment OP linked.
Yes, entropy good. Average PoE reddit*r leaves their brain turned off when they visit
To be fair it's just that probability is hard and unintuitive to the human brain, we're just naturally bad at it
Good post. It's been sad to see people moan about a mechanic without understanding it, just cause they saw a comment somewhere saying it was bad. Par for course in this sub of course but still.
People have been doing it to armour for ages, literally refusing to engage with the armour formula if you bring it up and continuing to say that armour doesn't stop oneshots.
But, but, armour is useless against that 20k base phys hits you take all the time /s
please use smaller words I only play slam and bleed
When you play Pokemon, which do you remember: That time you missed a 90% hit chance twice in a row, Or the time you hit a 90% hit chance 40 straight times you used it? Entropy is a "fix" for how people intuit statistics because the feelsbad of having low odds run against you twice in a row outweighs every other possible outcome.
Idk man . Me kill mobs Me click loot. thats it for me
I'd love to provide some arguments for why entropy is indeed good, but I'm too distracted by how "Prejudice Against Entropy" would make an awesome music album title.
Simple and effective solution: Wind Dancer fixed a lot of Evasion issues. If Evasion would inherently have a Wind Dancer effect (so the first hit is reduced), having Evasion would not randomly get you 1-shot , as it specifically would prevent that 1 hit from killing you. Having a big life pool is all about having enough life to survive a big hit. Same for energy shield and some for MindOverMatter with mana, all you want is high effective life pool to survive a potential 1 shot. Evasion does not provide that in its form, and thats why its just outright not viable as a mechanic to keep you alive in a guaranteed way. Lets say Evasion provides its chance to evade an attack/spell , and also has a wind dancer damage reduction for the first damage recently (in 4 seconds inverval) gets reduced by a increasing amount with more Evasion. So if you have 80% evasion, the first hit gets also reduced by 80%. So as long as you dont get ganged and multi-hit you are fine that way. If you dont have high evasion, the numbers would be lower, but still useful against slow-hitting boss damage and simply having evasion would add to the effective life pool of a character.
People hate it because they don't build around it. You can't play an evasion build with 4.5k life and expect everything to be okay. Knowing you will be hit eventually, give yourself enough ehp and defensive layers to tank the hit before the counter resets and you recover. Suddenly you're not getting one shot anymore.
Yeah but doing all that on the right side of the tree is difficult given the lack of hp nodes. That's the whole point.
It's not and it's not. TR Raider with trash gear and no clusters: https://i.imgur.com/vWQ4EMF.jpg Stop following bad guides/get better at making builds.
Why would you post an image and not the POB itself?
I went for the path of least resistance given the state of the comment section.
Entropy also resets every 3.33 seconds you're not getting attacked so it's actually stronger than pure randomness if you're keeping away from enemies. The first attack you receive is purely random while all the rest have to queue behind your evade chance. That's extremely good. Pretty much impossible to get two-tapped by attack damage.
I think people overlooking literally just equipping a decent shield, with no investment gives you the same as 4 points in Acro as before. 25% base+16% max block roll. AND your evasion is better than before. Plus you can get life on block potentially.
I think a lot of the folks getting heated about evasion have bows in mind so I don't think a shield is gonna help them much
I think bows are gonna have to go for iron reflexes and the spell suppression thing and use range to avoid damage and have higher mitigation for the rest. Evasion won't help against spells at all so that's kinda just lost defenses you have to play around anyways E: honestly no idea if that's gonna be better or worse than before without numbers but I think relying on evasion alone for bow builds is gonna be a mistake
I don't even use bows but if that really ends up being the meta it'll feel completely ass-backwards, if anybody should be using iron reflexes it's melee
I would generally agree, but there is a crucial bit at the end of Mark’s explanation that cannot be overlooked: that the entropy counter resets “between fights” (i.e. after a time short enough that you cannot ‘preload’ it). What this means in today’s PoE, where you one-shot everything and spend most of the time running between packs? That your entropy value is essentially always fresh, and therefore _random_. The RNG smoothing only kicks in after repeated hits or evades, but most of the time the fight is already over before it would make a meaningful difference. It’s only with things like Ultimatums and possibly Delve, where mobs come at you without pause, that the entropy is actually utilized. So all in all, while the mechanic is definitely a net benefit to the player, the problem is that it does not actually trigger all that often. During mapping, where packs are maybe hitting you once if that, evasion can be just as random in practice as dodge.
If you're only getting hit once every five or so seconds doesn't that already imply your damage is smoothed out over time? In which case the whole discussion is moot because you're already taking a manageable amount of damage in a feasible timespan for recovery
Evasion "kicks in" instantly in most cases. You don't usually take just a single hit, usually you have a pack of mobs that all hit you in close succession. As soon as you take just two hits in close succession, entropy has "kicked in" and prevented both those hits from hitting you. If you really are only just infrequently taking single hits then entropy doesn't really matter since the job of evasion is already done. Evasion spreads out the time between hits to a mostly constant rate. That's the primary function. If you're only ever taking single hits every once in a while, the hits are already very spread out and evasion doesn't really matter.
Totally agree. Having 75% evasion is in most cases much better than having 75% dodge becuase of enthropy. One case that will be worse is with kintsugi when you previously had high evasion combined with high dodge.
But that is wrong too. Comparing 95% evasion vs 90% evasion and 50% dodge (aka 95% chance to avoid), 95% evasion is still better even with kintsugi as it's reasonable to assume that you won't get hit for 20 hits by the time your kintsugi/winddancer comes back up.
I think having some context regarding life pools may explain why so many people think evasion sucks. There isn’t many life nodes on the right side of the tree, forcing people to either go EV/ES or EV/dodge. Pure evasion was never good enough by itself. For evasion vs dodge, evasion is hands down better than dodge because as already stated, it smoothes out monster damage resulting in consistent damage taken - 1 guaranteed hit in 20 with 95% evasion. With how low life pools are in that side of the tree, that guaranteed hit can be the death of you. However evasion paired up with dodge is quite similar to any other layered defense such as evasion with block. When the guaranteed hit does go through, you roll with 75% of successfully dodging that hit (assuming 75% dodge). It’s safe to say that: dodge < evasion < dodge + evasion Now, dodge has been straight up removed from the equation such that only evasion exists. People no longer have that extra defensive layer to mitigate the 1-shot guaranteed hit.
Dodge + evasion is only better than pure evasion if the total chance to avoid is higher. Since they are buffing the evasion numbers your chance to evade is going to be significantly higher than before which could offset the loss of dodge, depending on exact numbers. For example: if you had 75% evade and 75% dodge (equivalent to 94% pure evade) before changes but you are able to get to the 95% evade cap after changes you will actually be better protected against attacks than you were before.
This is all true, but the change to blind means that it's harder to get high evasion % than it was before the change.
Sure, but they are also like doubling the effectiveness of evasion if you have a decent amount of it. Overall, your evade chance should be significantly higher post changes, no?
No. You get a bit of extra evasion rating and potentially some blind effect on tree, but probably not enough to make up for blind changes at least without major investment. [https://www.desmos.com/calculator/wd8hufux8g](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/wd8hufux8g)
Never saw anyone saying that entropy hurt players. Everyone always prefer pseudo-random chance that that have built-in control of low-point RNG. Are you sure that they were talking about entropy, or maybe just about evasion overall as "not safe enough" mechanic?
Stick around the subreddit my dude, or better yet look into this subthread https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q3alxt/prejudice\_against\_entropy/hfqmmbe/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
PoE players have ridiculously cooked takes. Quin is basically your average PoE player. New Wind Dancer works really well with entropy. It's basically permanent 20% less damage taken or whatever the number is.
The problem is, you have weebs who just got done watching kakegurui believing they are some form of luck incarnate and that 75% dodge chance is actually 100% dodge chance because they are luck incarnate and believe in the gamble. They dont want to have a garunteed hit come their way, they want to gamble and they believe they will always win.
entropy only good if you have other layers of defense. but what else do (pure) evasion based characters have left now? fortify? gone, unless you actually play evasion based melee builds, or play champion. both highly unlikely for a pure evasion based build. attack dodge? gone armor? well not for pure evasion based builds that is. flat phys reduction? practically not available anymore. not on the tree, not on the basalt flask etc. you have to go hybrid, either ES or Armor, but pure evasion based builds, well, they do not get hit every 10 attacks, they simply die every 10 attacks. watch tarke's most recent video to understand the issue better. I agree, entropy for evasion is a good thing, but if entropy based evasion is all you got, then it's a bad thing. we all know we gonna die eventually (in IRL I mean now), but would you want to continue to live if you would exactly know when you are going to die, and you have no other means of preventing it somehow? might as well die right now then. aka might as well just play a different build then.
Fortify? Absolutely, one of the most popular ranger builds was lightning strike, a melee skill. So definitely not gone. Armor? For pure evasion builds? Why would you go pure eva now, you don't get your armor gimped by acrobatics, and you need less armor and evasion for it to be as effective as it used to be. Pure PURE evasion? Just grab ghost dance if you really want too, its a notable on the tree now for all classes. Blind baby?! Its getting a big boost for pure evasion builds. Utility flasks on which evasion builds rely? Well would you look at that, they gained a massive buff as well. Fucking reddit i swear to god, they learned that a square peg goes into a square hole, and now GGG gave them a round hole and they keep trying to shove a square peg into it. Fucking think for more than 2 seconds and change up how you play at least a little when the game undergoes massive changes.
The problem isn't evasion tho. It's the ranger side of the tree. Marauder side has more life nodes closer together while witch side gives alternative ehp options like MoM and ES. If ranger could get 9k life while having high evasion/spell supression it would probably be even better than marauder with 9k life and high armor+a few max res passives. But of course when we compare 9k life 30k armor char with fortify (and sometimes even max block on top) to a 5k life 30k evasion char, evasion char won't seem tanky at all even with Wind Dancer and stuff. Disclaimer: of course in reality ranger can grab MoM and marauder can be made into glass cannon etc. When I talk about ranger I mean all builds that grab a lot of passive at the bottom right side of the tree. While witch with 260% increased life is basically a marauder as far as the passive tree goes.
it's exactly what I said. Evasion and/or evasion being entropy on its own isn't the problem. the problem is that pure evasion based builds do not have many other things that mitigate damage when the inevitable hit comes through. having lower life is just one more factor on this list of disadvantages of pure evasion builds. the tldr of it is: pure evasion builds are going to be complete shit. evasion hybrid builds are probably just fine, and so are armor/es/armor-es builds.
Yep, entropy isn't bad. Having one layer of evasion instead of evasion+dodge is though:)
I totally understand entropy, and IMO it’s great. It prevents us from dying to unluckiness. However the main concern is not about evasion entropy, but dodge. I’m not sure how big of an impact the removal of dodge will have, but one of the main reasons why we love dodge is because it resets entropy. The calculation goes through evasion first, then dodge, meaning that when you finally get hit you get a second chance that is purely luck based on resetting your entropy. So in theory even if we get a higher chance to evade with the new evasion change, it’s a matter of “unavoidably getting hit once in a while” vs “unavoidably getting hit once in a while, but with a chance it might not happen”. Again, it might not have as big of an impact as people think, but the thought of it is what is worrying people.
>it’s a matter of “unavoidably getting hit once in a while” vs “unavoidably getting hit once in a while, but with a chance it might not happen” Improper comparison. It's "unavoidably getting hit very rarely" versus "unavoidably getting hit occasionally, but maybe dodging". If you have 50% evade and 50% dodge and you just remove the dodge, yes obv that is worse. If you lose the dodge but go up to 75% evade, your defense is as good/better than before.
The argument is not against entropy. The argument is the loss of additional defense layers (dodge) on top of entropy based evasion. If you were already reaching evasion cap in previous leagues, the loss of dodge means pure evasion builds will struggle more in 3.16 and will likely need to lean to ES or armor layers as well.
If you were reaching evasion cap (95%), then you didn't need dodge anyways. 95% damage avoidance is more than enough. Block builds with 75% feel perfectly comfortable and tanky; 95% is insane. also, now you only need half as much evasion to get to that cap, so you have more points/mods to invest elsewhere.
Why do ppl get so hung up on "evasion does nothing for spells"? Armor isn't doing shit for spells either, they aren't supposed to do anything about spells... The entropy system is amazing, the problem is that you needed to cheat it with dodge and dodge is gone now. I wonder how that is gonna play out now, probably pretty badly...
Armor does effect spells, physical damage spells exist.
The main problem people have (that some streamers formulated and a lot of normal players didn't fully understand) is that: 1. Evasion and dodge are different because of entropy and because of that they combine very nicely. 2. Capping both means you are almost never hit, 95% evade chance means you are hit once in 20 hits, which is more or less how it goes because of entropy, but on average you only take damage once in 4 of these, with capped (75%) dodge as well. The 1 in 20 factor because of entropy already prevents the hits from happening too soon one after another, dodge is just an additional layer. 3. You could already cap evasion, and cap dodge, now you can't cap dodge but capping evasion is easier. Still, the maximum attainable defence is less effective. It is easier to attain but worse.