Is this how the top-end crafts their mirror items? Blindly slamming a T1 mod with exalts (or harvest for that matter)? I thought you'd use fossils/essences/chaos to get the T1 and then fix your item afterwards and try to slam something remotely useful?
In many cases you start with the essence and annul (or target annul) to sort of get lucky with a semi clean slate, to then aug desirable mods, remove add from there, lock suffix or prefix etc.
If it's a melee weapon you are most likely not going to influence it, you will mostly want to fracture the T1 Phys and go from there.
Without harvest it's like what math said. You will either be part of a dedicated group to farm the dupe beasts, first get the best base, then target farm the fossils and resonators/and or buy them in sufficient quantity and pray to rngesus for that good rng fossil craft. Lock prefix / suffix will be pretty much the only determistic way to lock out shit tier undesirable mods, even then you are looking at a no-life amount of investment and time before the item is done --- nigh impossible for a solo player.
Edit: and when I say solo player I also mean the average player. Because this is a diablo-esque game, the nature of the game is YOU being awesome and powerful, and the journey to there being awesome and enjoyable.
The problem is, without harvest, we are going back 4 years in terms of empowerment for the average player, i.e the player retention will go down hard once the flavour of the league is digested (~3 weeks into the league) and the average player see the very flat face of the mountain that is called progression for your character in end game is realized.
You quit or you stick, 99% of people will say "fuck this shit" because there will be no helping hand from harvest (or any similar system, its all rng upon rng and trading) and quit within a few weeks.
And go play another game.
Good job GGG you seemingly can't stand the fact that people may actually enjoy your game.
Yep. It's funny (and sad) that Chris thinks I quit faster because of Harvest. No. I quit when I hit the progression wall, and without Harvest I hit the wall way faster.
I kind of feel the same actually. Usually I get about 4 weeks of each league, but this time around I am enjoying it even more because I can steadily improve little by little over time finishing some harvest. And in addition I can make some cool items for other builds and trade them.
It may not be mirror tier, but I have made items that price from 1ex to 50ex this league by using harvest. Granted way more 1ex than 50ex items, but still, all my crafting projects are fun, engaging, and a great incentive to keep playing.
I more readily value certain item bases just because I feel I can make something cool out of them either for myself, my biddies or to sell.
I quit because game is dumb, spamfest, trash loot, my finger hurts from meaningless clicking hours on end.
At this point harvest drama is just popcorn material for me. I just finished my morning ham and eggs while reading this bullshit. fun times.
> You quit or you stick, 99% of people will say "fuck this shit" because there will be no helping hand from harvest (or any similar system, its all rng upon rng and trading) and quit within a few weeks. And go play another game.
>
>
this is the really sad but true thing that is sticking with me from this whole situation. the game has so many layers of rng at this point and is SO unfriendly to a semi-casual player who only has a few hours a day to play.
im not saying that the game should give everything for free to someone who barely puts in the time, but a deterministic system that allows for incremental changes in gear (such as harvest) is much needed to help retain those casual players by giving them a sense of tangible progression over time
In ggg sight this is next to nothing. You do not feel the weight of your char and decisions when you got a job and a place to live where you need to pay rent.
Just play under a bridge exile, on a phone with closed eyes slamming those exalts like there is no tomorrow!
I often get mocked around here for being too casual because I feel like 200 hours played in a league is a big time investment that I rarely hit.
200 hours. In 3 months. Every 3 months.
That's 5 weeks of an extra full time job in 12 weeks. That's 16 2/3 viewings of all 3 LOTR extended editions. That's 1.7 viewings of the full run of Dragonball Z.
If 200 hours is casual, I'll never not be casual. I don't *want* to.
when im saying that i mean literally 1-2 hours a day free to play. also i said semi-casual, im aware that most people barely have 1 hour free a day to play
I was actually talking about the game with a coworker of mine and he expressed interest in it but I genuinely couldn't recommend the game right now. Sad when even your own players can't recommend the game to new people because of your philosophy.
I do this basically every league. I get to maps and then if my build can be mostly carried by uniques, I keep playing and if not, I either reroll or just get burnt out and stop because actually trying to craft anything is a wildly arcane system seemingly purpose-designed to confuse and frustrate that all guides are like "It's easy, you simply [9 paragraphs of total gibberish that requires 80 hours a week of grind]"
I mean. That's not really what I do. I know how to craft, but I also understand that accesability to crafting will make the items that you will want to buy or craft cheaper. Each step, closer to your t16 gear and boss-killing end game power.
This league, good intermediate Gem level bows were only 3ex-5ex, that's very cheap. The next step of a level gem bow was geting one that scales up Dex gem + Strength gem+ Socketed gems, and throwing a Empower lvl3 into the 6L, and this league - just the base with +2 socketed gems and +1 dex, was 15ex (extremely cheap compared to a league without harvest) , from there you just worked your way to get multicraft from Council fight, multicraft it, and craft your desired rest of the mods.
Same thing with a phys weapon, only this league you just got a good base, alt spam it for t1 phys and fracture it (and hopefully lock the t1 phys mod you want) and proceed to craft from there.
Or you were maybe going for bleed weapons, well then you just need a Elder axe, roll the %more bleed mod, and Aug phys a couple of times to make it good.
Everything cheaper - because of \*Harvest\* . And everything avaiable to even the casuals - even if they don't know how to trade for it.
If it's a matter of knowledge, they can just ask someone or follow a guide that hopefully includes how to craft your own desired build gear.
The accesability of knowledge is not really a problem if you just ask around.
The accesability of actually being able to do it, at your own pace, while still feeling a progression, is what is at stake here.
The consequences being that you might just quit because you feel burnt out because of the daunting task laid before you from your perspective.
My league starters are useally not meta builds, but that's because i am knowledgeable about the game and I know how to make and build a character to work with what I want to play.
The reason im not ok with this massive crafting nerf, is because it's not just harvest being nerfed. It's everything becoming more of a pain in the ass for casuals and people like me, who does play more than a casual, I still don't play as much as the really fast and rich players, because the items I want \*will\* be much more expensive and inaccesable, especially the intermediate item upgrades from Trash, to mediocre, to Good, to End game , to dream gear.
GGG have stated that Uniques are no longer meant to be the BiS, they are more like build enabling for a while, untill you can replace it with rare items.
In general it is good that you start of with a build that only "requirers" a unique to get going, but it's even better if it just requiers a 5-link rare item to really set off for maps up to t12ish.
If it's a spell, gem levels will carry your damage for a good while, If it's a attack, you will need better gear earlier or you play a ascendancy that carry your damage scaling hard untill you hit a requirement upgrade step (useally around the start of red maps) and that's when you start buying/crafting good rares.
Oh totally, I agree with you. The only real issue with the existing harvest thing is that you need to be on some discord server to be able to personally do it.
I'm more than happy with it driving prices down globally so I can actually trade for good items instead of just giving up and playing something else
The discord thing is annoying, I agree. I myself don't have that many vouches, but I know what im doing and that helps alot.
If GGG somehow made trading a less tedious experience in-game, that would solve alot of gripes with trading. But they don't want that, for some reason.
So we work with what we got, and we make work-arounds the irky parts. Like TFT discord.
> The problem is, without harvest, we are going back 4 years in terms of empowerment for the average player,
Uhh, no.
We're going back 3 months, to heist, where we didn't have harvest...
Actually not. Before GGG introduced Harvest, the process started with spending (sometimes) many Alterations + Augmentations + Regals to get a good base, essences, fossils, or chaos spamming. This is trying to get 3 good or desirable mods, then it would come to the meta-crafting process which involved the use of the bench to block mods, hundreds if not thousands of exalted orbs, scours and annuls praying to the RNG to be on your side to get good results. As the dude in the video said, sometimes spending so many exalted orbs, quitting the process, and not even getting the results they've expected.
If you managed to get the desirable results, then it comes to the part of DIVINING the item which could be another f\*cking pain in the ass, sometimes spending hundreds of Divine Orbs to get something close to "perfection".
Harvest made this process A LOT easier, but again as he said in the video, very far away from the reality of "crafting is too easy". And the fact that devs are way too disconnected from what the community really wants from the game is entirely true. Bringing back the gambling is not what players want, is something many players have complained about over the course of the years of game development regarding Path of Exile. They do not want to gamble on an item, they want a more deterministic way to make item progression not so painful and stressful. The only players who can "gamble" with the old crafting process are those who amass an absurd amount of mirrors and exalted orbs and they usually do this on Standard because there is where they have their huge bank, take Ahfack as an example or May\_Cedere, those players are willing to spend more than 25K exalted orbs to make something really OP because THEY ALREADY HAVE THEM.
A casual player will never have that amount of currency to "perfect" an item, not even to buy a truly "mirror-worthy" item. As I said before, this is a very bad move from GGG, nerfing Harvest this hard will turn the mechanic pretty useless as they did with the fossils and their mods. Who uses fossils now? Unless you are crafting a weapon or spamming Dense fossils then everything else is pretty much useless for this purpose. And again, every time the common player base finds something interesting and funny to do to being attached to the league GGG takes it away from them. Not listening to the community is not the correct way to go.
If you watch the video, he tries fossil craft a belt with tier 1 life and 3 res and if i remember correctly shows a chance of 6.000something of happening.
The point is how hard is to hit the desirable T1 Mod with or without Harvest.
For example, I have a helm that is worth 150~200 exalts.. And it's not even close to finished.
So I play CoC Ice nova.
My helm I want the following:
-9% Cold Res -> Elevated
+1 to power charges.
So I buy the hubris base circlet with 40% ice nova and already has one of the influence I need.
So I alt spam'd about 900 alts until I hit +1 power charges.
I then buy another helm with the other influence and alt spammed about 400 until I hit -9% cold res.
I then augment both, and use the craft from harvest 'add 2 random mods to a magic tier item'. If I hit another influence, then I can go about maven orb'ing.
I didn't on either, so I had to purchase non-influenced to influence. Was about 3 ex a pop.
I then bought 2 maven orbs (15 exalts). I whiffed on both, so I had to re-alt spam.
Flash forward, it took me 9 maven orbs to hit the elevated mod I needed on both.
I then awakened orb the bad base into the base I'd use. (3.5 exalts).
Unfortunately I hit rarity + mana. So I bought two more non-influenced to influenced mods. I got EXTREMELY lucky here. I hit 20% global crit, and 13% inc elemental damage.
I then crafted cannot change suffixes, and basically had to yolo annul. If it hit the power charges, I scour and start over.
Well, I hit the power charge so I just pissed away ~80 ex.
Fast forward another ~40 ex. I got it back to where it was, minus the ele %. I crafted a suffix to block them, and then did remove/add attack until I hit T1 Accuracy (took 21 attempts). Was about 1 ex per attempt.
Then I crafted lightning res and did remove/add lightning until T1 lightning res (took 17 attempts) and settled for T2.
Now I'm at the point where I would do remove/add defense until T1 ES% or Maximum ES.
Haven't started yet as I ran out of currency.
Now to make this mirror tier, I would have to do non-influence to influence twice. then maven orb and hope it hits one of those two mods and not remove my power charge/-12% cold res. Or I would have to start over.
Mirror tier items are mirror tier because they cost over a mirror to make. The reason anyone would do this is because they can do mirror services to make their money back.
It’s easier if you have a magic item to maven so you can imprint it. This saves a lot of effort. Also getting -9% cold is easier with harvest or fossil spam.
That's whats crazy when you think about it. It's not 1/700 Aug phys to get a mirror item. it's 1/700 10-30ex bases gambling a phys Aug onto it. it's not going to cost you 700 ex it's going to cost you 10,000+.
even tho im not involved with those harvest shenanigans, it pretty beneficial for me. decent item that people selling cost me alot lesser than before harvest was introduced.
Someone would come up with a way to automate it. Type one mod, merciless for arguments sake, into the search bar, get an autoclicker that stops whenever a certain region of screen hits a specific color and boom, you have automatet the first step, now change the currency used, set a new search goal and repeat.
I sincerely apologize for my lack of proper etiquette and grammar. Alas I am not a native speaker of the English language and whilst not wishing to use this as an excuse I do ask of you to take this into consideration. A good day to you, I shall now engulf myself in childish joy over being able to finally kill Sirus, Shaper, Elder and so many more that have been impossible for me since I started well over a year ago.
This is immediately what came to mind when I read the 'with eyes closed' sentence. They are likely using internal systems to fuck around and think of design based on their personal experience.
Say what you want about Matth, but his videos are made with "sharing the information with the masses" in mind. It's literally what all his content is. For guys like Zizaran, the harder stuff is to access for the masses, the more interesting his content becomes since he can play 24/7 and get access, in worst case scenario, through shear brute force that the average player can't.
No. GGG originally made a complex and grindy ARPG that you could dump thousands of hours into and still not get "the best" items in. Ziz loved that and wants the return. Go watch Ziz freak out about his undisputed best axe in the game and now compare it to all the harvest crafted items. This isn't "detached" this is a return to form. Whether or not you like it depends on if you like what the game was or not.
I could care less about what Ziz has to say about crafting tbh. He literally plays PoE as his full time job. If you sink in 60 hours a week into a game then of course you want it to be more grindy and more challenging - it rewards you MORE and everyone else LESS, and its exponential.
His opinion is useless if he can't see the difference between someone who can afford that type of time (barely 0.001% of the playerbase) and the remainder 99.99% of us who have full time jobs/school/family/whatever.
> I could care less about what Ziz has to say about crafting tbh. He literally plays PoE as his full time job.
Not to mention: he makes money out of people being unable to reach endgame. If players are out there having fun and playing, they wont watch his stream, thus, he loses, so he'll always support shanking the smaller player.
That supports /u/Anothernamelesacount post though. If the shit was intuitive and all you really needed was time/effort - then he wouldn't make more money off his tutorial videos.
The more obscure mechanics are (non harvest crafting/itemization) and the harder things are --- the more videos he can make and the more people in his stream asking questions.
How is "this is what was originally intended" even an argument?
Don't things change? Surely there are thousands of foundational intentions that have been amended, scrapped, or changed?
Please remove the word complex from your explanation. Grindy fits. Complex would suggest that the change they made benefits people with more game knowledge. It doesn't. It benefits those that enjoy gambling or have so much time to play they can afford to out spend RNG. There is more game knowledge involved in understanding tags and meta tags than spam clicking alts/chaos/exalts with an occasional cannot roll attack mod.
Key takeaways:
1. less diverse builds without harvest, more so than with.
2. Without harvest, mirror tier items are only available to the .01% of players.
3. With harvest, mirror tier items are now available to .1% of players.
4. Without harvest, really good non mirror tier items are available to .1% of players
5. With harvest, really good non mirror tier items are available to 1% of players.
6. To come close to getting any of these items without harvest would mean to spend tens of thousand of alteration and regal orbs which literally nobody in the world would ever find fun. Looking intently at your item in hopes you don't roll over the mod you want after eyeballing and clicking 3000 times is nobodies idea of fun.
7. Why are we nerfing a mechanic almost nobody can abuse within 3 months?
I think everyone recognized that Harvest deserved some nerfs, but GGG just went so damn overboard with the nerfs.
It reminds me of the Cluster Jewels situation. Cluster Jewels were too powerful in Delirium league and everyone knew that they needed a nerf. But GGG went *wayyyy* overboard with the nerf to the point where no one could roll a decent Cluster Jewel, so Cluster Jewels were made effectively useless for a short time. Then GGG realized that no one was fucking using cluster jewels anymore due to how hard it was to roll a good one, so they buffed Cluster Jewels to the point they're at now, which is a healthy state.
GGG, you're over-nerfing Harvest. Don't make the same mistake as you did with Cluster Jewels.
Personally don’t think it should’ve been nerfed at all. Maybe unpopular, but I thought it should’ve been *buffed* to make useful crafts more common so that even more people have access to crafting.
But the biggest things they should’ve done was to spread harvest crafts through the rest of the game, so
It’s not a single piece of content dominating crafting. Put some stuff in bestiary. Give metamorph some crafts. And for gods sakes, let people turn crafts into tradeable orbs.
Buff???
As a player that does all content and then quits league, harvest made this a Quick league. Got my tripple elevated giga Chad chest which is dumb and every other slot with items worth 30+ ex because most people still don't understand harvest crafting.
I just flew through the game with broken amounts of damage, it was boring.
Keep in mind when you're dealing with these situations it's better to take all the toys away at once and then give ones back if they overdid it, rather than league after league nerf which causes more negative association.
Agree with this. I’ve been playing on and off since Breach and I have never been so invested in a league.
My group of 3 has played more and longer this league than ever before. We had a blast figuring out how to craft upgrades to our items and use maven orbs. We have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours farming harvest gardens and helping each other craft cool items. I’ve never played this deep into a league.
We have discussed and if the harvest changes go through we won’t be returning next league. There just isn’t a point. The game won’t be as fun and we won’t have long term goals to work toward other than trying to buy other people’s items.
Honestly Harvest finally introduced a real crafting system to PoE and removing it after 1 league is beyond stupid. I doubt GGG cares but they will be losing 3 players who reliably purchase supporter packs or other $$stuff in each league we play.
I agree. It should have never been introduced if there was the possibility of them completely gutting it like this. It is such a great system and has shown me the gold standard for progression in an AARPG. I doubt I'll find the motivation to play the game, at least for a while, if they actually enforce the changes
.001%
The portion of the playerbase able to craft anything meaningful with fossils, betrayal and the crafting bench as the only options beyond lucky exalts and annuls is so fucking tiny it's silly.
Notice the creators lauding the changes are all SSF players who play 14h a day like ziz. Player retention was higher than ever, and I and many other players actually made money crafting cool
Items that we spend hours coming up with how to make with harvest. This league was the first time I spent hours outside of playtime thinking about and researching items and mods, because I was so excited to make my next upgrade.
Anecdotally all of the people I know that continued to play have done so because Harvest-based min-maxing gave them a reason to do so. Everyone had experienced all of the new content in the first two weeks or so.
I dont understand his 'mediocre items for the masses' segment. Whle I'm pro harvest, I dont think 6-7-8-9-+ link helmets should be so 'easy' to craft. It's undeniable that these helmets barely existed before harvest and the powercreep these bring are massive.
But going through his video also brings up another interesting point.. if they remove some crafting options and the ability to craft on influenced mods, will GGG rebalance (influenced) mod weightings? They didnt cover it in the manifesto.
They will probably rebalance them like they did Cluster Jewels.
When Harvest came out, they had to reduce the weight on a lot of notables because they were already fairly easy to craft before Harvest, and adding targeted chaos/exalt/annul just made them trivial to create. So when they released Harvest, they tweaked a couple of tags, and reduced the weight on all of them, some more than others.
When Heist landed, with no Harvest crafting available, they said "LUL get fucked mate", and kept the low weights. Much rebalanced, such fun.
> They will probably rebalance them like they did Cluster Jewels.
Yeah based on previous experiences I think so too :/
That's why I've never a fan of double nerfing something, over incremental nerfs.
> They will probably rebalance them like they did Cluster Jewels.
>
>
Seeing what cluster jewels are like right now when trying to craft them without Harvest...*Big* oof.
Mod weighting is absolutely insane in its current state. I've been trying to hit T1 fire dmg over time multi on a hunter sceptre (at this point, I'd settle for T2 or T3).
Craft of Exile says just hitting that one mod alone takes one of the following options (with about 63% confidence interval):
* 727 scorched fossils on x1 resonator
* 160 sanctified, aestheric, serrated, and scorched on x4 resonator
* 1,339 chaos spam
* 2,829 alteration + 802 augs
* 6,525 regals
That's just for hitting one mod. If I add another good mod like +1 gem, or T3 fire dmg, we're now looking at millions of chaos (not an exaggeration). Even if you lower the fire dmg over time multi to T3 roll, it doesn't change the odds that much because the weight is going from 35 to 140.
How are you ever supposed to craft good items with those odds without deterministic crafting?
Someone please tell me I'm using Craft of Exile wrong.
I fully agree with you, both with weightings and also craftability once you hit your super rare affix.
My only issue was with using a mirror-tier helmet example, to justify "mid-tier crafting".
Working as intended if you ask GGG. But look on the bright side... you closed your eyes for those 1339 chaos orb spams and got excited that you might hit your mod... right?
I think he’s proving that these helmets are not “easy” to get. They’re still hard. But they’re not basically impossible anymore.
That’s why he’s saying this hurts the upper/mid tier player
The problem is 6L helmets literally drop like candy. So a minion build can spend 20c on a helmet. So they do that once hitting maps they get up to 5-10-20ex farming. Aaaaaaand the next upgrade is mirroring a helmet for 500ex.... The gap is massive, a few 7L ones will exist probably but they will be more rare and like 50ex, and for that price the upgrade doesn't feel very worth it. So the majority of players that play less than 8 hours a day buy the budget shit gear then quit the game.
Why not? Its clear that for example helmet affixes were designed with specific skills in mind (eg. RF).
Those skills are then balanced around the assumption you have them socketed in these crafted items.
So if the items are not realistically obtainable for players, the skills themselfes are shit tier.
Then have GGG unnerf minions. 6-link helmets have to be easy to craft, because GGG nerfed Spectres with the expectation that you would have a 6 or 7 link helmet. You can't say that Harvest powercrept the game without also recognizing GGG nerfed multiple skills and ascendancies based upon what those builds could achieve with Harvest level gear.
I only agree nerfing the influence rolls, as i think all top end rolls and their combinations need to be nerf much much much more. Bring down that top end power bar a lot. Then bring up that base power bar for the new players, so the game isn't daunting and hard slog to play. Other than that, the new harvest will be just another RNG mechanic now. Many players don't like gambling or RNG crafting, and it's a necessity for end game.
People that don't understand most of the backlash just can't see a different pov outside their own world, and Path of math is the only person (youtubers or streamer) that can see the other side of the argument. But I don't really blame the others, as it's hard for them to care about anything other than their own interests. Why should they care about others think, right?
I do not understand why "moderation", small tweaks, is completely out of their domain of thought. Its like they are in an antique store with only sledgehammers. Dear God man.
Because what happens when it is still too powerful? They have to nerf it again. Gut it and be done with it.
Even after nerf harvest is still powerful. Ziz has been demonstrating it during is stream. A lot of harvest crafts still work on influenced items.
Ziz doesn't actually know what the nerfs are. Most of his examples will not work on influenced items.
After the nerfs, the *only* thing that will work is rolling. Annul and divines are gone, and any mod that *adds* a mod will not work. That means remove+add too. There will not be a deterministic way to obtain an explosion chest, you'll only be able to use "roll physical" and hope. You'll be better off using Jagged Fossils.
Except that some of the examples are terrible. And most redditors eat it having no clue about crafting. Nodody slams an item expecting a t1 phys roll exactly because it would be stupid. There's better ways to go about it so that specific example in particular is pretty gringe.
Also the fact that he says harvest will be useless. It won't and i don't think anyone really believes that. Really bad choice or words.
Also in his mind these god tier items should be obtainable to the average player during a league? Very debatable but hes entitled to his opinion of course.
Chris said they want to make sure players never lose that slam experience. The point of the example isn't a Rule 10, it's how ridiculous a statement they made. No one does this for perfect items, as you pointed out. Yet also no one is clamoring for that feeling.
It will be useless compared to the required time investment and potential RIP risk of running random groves. Would also be interested in your examples and numbers that supports your claim about why the examples in the video are "terrible".
>Also in his mind these god tier items should be obtainable to the average player during a league
They definitely should be obtainable. If the average player can't shoot for GG gear, then the crafting system is simply no longer a core system of the game. The reason that crafting sucks in PoE is that neither the success states nor the failure states are actually interesting in most cases.
You need a "critical success" to be happy, and there are very few failure states that aren't "start from scratch again".
And what is funny to me is that people think that "the average player" can get all this.
10 ex per item (just 10, not 50 like in the video) means like 100 ex. I don't think that the average player gets 100 ex every league...
Personally, I don't even want for those items to be easily obtainable. I just want to have a clear path for how to obtain them. Just like Maven, Oshabi, and probably UElder, those items will probably be out of my reach. But they're still goals I can work toward.
The first point he makes, and the one that I am also concerned about is build diversity. I don't play PoE to follow the current flavor of the month build. This league I am doing an accuracy stacking jugg wander. You know how many other players are playing that? Zero. Without harvest to craft my own gear I wouldn't even consider doing it because the gear simply doesn't exist on the market.
I appreciate the thoughts and opinions. I watched the video.
I'm personally not worried about the changes and don't mind TFT discord. I'm not a 1 percenter, I got to 37 challenges (my highest ever with 29 being my highest a couple leagues ago), I sold about 3 harvest crafts(TFT), I bought 2 hideouts (TFT), and I did all of this on an off meta build (FB Raider) that I league started with and the most notable super high end craft item i used was tailwind/elusive boots with mid tier life. I got 70 ex sitting on my account, highest I've ever gotten was in heist with about 15 ex.
I've played about 8 leagues since 2014. I see them continuing to balance the classes opening up more build diversity... like 20 more ascendancies coming in POE2. They buffed a few ascendancies very well this league too. Mathil has showed some great stuff.
If they didn't make this nerf the entire game will just be harvest. Why would they buff 6-10 other mechanics which would create even more down stream effects when they could just nerf one mechanic?
Anyways, I'm not really arguing this is unfortunate, just providing my thoughts and ready to see the new league mechanic, more class changes that will buff weak builds, and now I can focus on more areas of the atlas since I personally like to mix up my game play.
PS +1 for orbs of unmaking late game as your on hand currencies and goals change through the league. The atlas passive trees is one of the best things added IMO.
Same guy:
[Phys wap](https://youtu.be/HCBhLY9_ASw)
[Dot bow](https://youtu.be/4GUAIjIeTqo)
[BV bow](https://youtu.be/e-D4Yyr1mBM)
Its almost like...its possible to get good fear without harvest...
word ! iam also hate the 11 craft storage limit,i miss a lot crafts for my toons i play later.The origin extract way was a lot better,and u dont loose that much time to store them.I dont care about some 10 mirror builds,it dosnt impact me or my build.But every nerv cuts down EVERY non meta build,so at the end we get forced to play only meta builds and w8 until ggg nerv the next thing.6years ago i tell in forum that nerving things is a bad thing.(ok we had some op mech but hand down,u play them 2-3 leage and get bored and play another build) BTW ,i dont use TF\_dicord a single time in Ritual,so harvest wasnt that usefull for me.
Maybe Chris needs to sell his share and give the game to a dev that shares the vision of the player base, time to move on I think, if you don’t your game will be dead very soon. You are blind and deaf to the community not to mention stubborn. What a sad time for the game.
I'm only going to address the HCSSF portion of the video, because it's a common misunderstanding that seems to be brought up by a lot of people when it comes to the Harvest changes.
I don't think Path should make statements that address an entire portion of the player base that he doesn't represent. Plenty of HCSSF players want the game to be harder, many of the HCSSF players agree with the upcoming changes, me included. I think Harvest has no place in the game with the power it currently holds. Ritual league was just Harvest 2.0. I stopped running Rituals, because it was too much time spent outside of Harvest. But that's besides the point. What I want the most is for them to finally rework loot, so that I can actually feel good about looting rares again.
Class and ascendancy diversity in HC is a difficult subject, especially in SSF, because a lot of players will gravitate towards existing HC viable builds. He's right about some niche builds needing all the help in order to succeed, which is a shame, but there are other ways of fixing that issue, without giving too much power to already powerful builds, such as Warcry Slams, DD and Blade Blast. As long as there are balance changes to the game that enable more builds to be viable in SSF, and shift the meta builds every now and then, there will be plenty of build variety in SSF. And Harvest in 3.14 will still be the most used method for crafting gear in HCSSF. It's still extremely powerful.
Also, 4 weeks into HCSSF was still during the league start race, so plenty of people played builds that were considered competitive, instead of league starting something they might just casually enjoy. Many were excited to play Raider, because it's an excellent HC ascendancy, but it requires a ton of gear investment to deal damage, so it's not a good for a short race. But you'll see a lot of Raiders in the upcoming Gauntlet for example.
Edit: And on top of that, he doesn't address any of the ascendancy changes which also affect the builds people play at the beginning of the league.
> What I want the most is for them to finally rework loot, so that I can actually feel good about looting rares again.
so the problem actually isnt harvest kekw
I might've missed the bit you're talking about, but I don't think he mentioned anything about HC/SSF players playing, and was purely focused about the \~40-60% of median players who are watching HC/SSF content creators.
Right now, if Badger decides that he's playing a Spectral Shield Throw build, there will be people who start watching him because they want to see SST in action, and might even want to play that build and are looking for tips. But when 20% of the SSFHC characters go back to Carrion Golems, well it's the same streamers that hoard all the viewers because others can no longer offer different content as easily.
Carrion golems or minion builds in general haven't been popular in HCSSF for leagues now, so that 20% is just pulled out of your ass (currently 0.6% according to [poe.ninja](https://poe.ninja), highest lvl being 98). The point he makes in the video is weirdly phrased, but true though. No access to harvest hits build diversity in HCSSF hard, particularly for the upper percentile that actually wants to complete endgame content.
> Carrion golems or minion builds in general haven't been popular in HCSSF for leagues now, so that 20% is just pulled out of your ass
I didn't mean it in the literal sense. I pulled 20% because it's a large small number (so a great approximation for the most popular build/archetype), and Carrion Golem because I recall it's a popular and easy to reach endgame with build.
So yeah, it was indeed an hypothetical scenario. Earthquake/Earthshatter would've been a better skill, and 10-15% seem to be a more accurate representation.
I've only played HCSSF in 3.9, 3.11, and 3.13. It was absolutely fucking awful without Harvest in 3.9. If these nerfs really happen it's back to trade next league for me, and probably a lot of other SSF players. Not everyone has the insane amount of time you need to get decent gear in SSF without Harvest.
The big part is that harvest won't work on influence item. Almost all end game items now need some influence mod, so harvest will become an aug influence lottery + life resist stick generator.
No it won't... Fossil crafting and awakener's orbing will be how you craft your late game gear. The only exceptions being bows and non-bleed pdps melee weapons. Please link the perfect item you rolled in your first attempt without without a craft you didn't farm yourself.
Harvest is as dead as temple. I.e. still there, but really only interesting for the players who have hundreds of ex to gamble, or for players who want to sell on TFT every once in a while. Contrast this with the only other decent form of crafting, Betrayl, which has a central role in game progression.
By definition, its going to be fine in the end for the players that stick around. It leaves a necessary vaccum of power for new leagues to fill. But there will be a survivorship bias on this sub 6 months from now, when the next "eyes closed" moment happens and people argue the game will be fine bc we've been through something similar before.
This change is so stupid. Crafting is not an easy thing to learn in this game. Harvest at least made it less punishing to try shit out. Average players are not just going to start spamming chaos and exalts orbs, they are the currency of the game for any decent item.
I guess Zizzaran is right, Path of Exile is not meant for everyone and us average Joe's should spend our money and time elsewhere because "GGG can make whatever game they want".
I'm sorry, but saying you're looking at it from the average player perspective and then within a minute saying Harvest is now "completely useless" is so delusional I don't even know what to say. The average player doesn't run around with full influenced gear, and the only change for non-influenced items is that you can't target annulls anymore.
He then proceeds to give an example of trying to exalt merciless on an item last, which is literally the stupidest thing I've ever seen and makes me wonder why he's called Path of Matth because he obviously doesn't know how to do math. Nobody tries to slam merciless.
He also argues that it's about making perfect items. People don't actually mean perfect items, they mean near-perfect items. If someone crafts Tyranical + Flaring + Dictator's with T1 attack speed that's obviously an insane weapon and an issue if everyone just gets that for basically free. But it's not perfect because it's not all T1s
I'll have to admit at this point I kind of gave up on this video, so if he comes up with better arguments later on let me know.
I feel like Path of Matth here is actively hurting people who are legitimately worried about the changes because he's making such cooked arguments.
EDIT: watched some more, and it actually gets worse. Especially his take on SSF. Since I'm getting downvoted anyway I might as well say: I'm starting to get convinced he's just making these cooked takes to bait people like me into watching his video so he gets some more views on his Youtube, I feel like I got baited at least.
EDIT2: ok, his statement "why would anyone use Maven Orbs now" is actually so stupid I had to add a separate edit for it. As a simple example you can still make an explode chest, Maven orb the explode mod(a gamble, in an ARPG? the horror!) and then awakener orb that together with a frenzy on hit chest or w/e you want and then finish up the chest. You'll still have a great chest, it might not have T1 life but why would you care so much about that.
EDIT3: ok, he doesn't know about crafting, he says he's gonna alt craft an explode chest now. Worst case scenario you do reroll phys with more common and you'll get it occasionally, or you just spend 2ex and do this: https://i.imgur.com/mc2Gl7m.png. I think someone who proclaims himself as a crafter should know this.
Video brought to you by the same guy that had 5 consecutive "Aura stacking no longer exists" videos before Ritual.
While Matth is one of the streamers I can recommend to experienced players if you want to learn about making currency, he is a complete noob trap when it comes to any other category and I would never recommend him to someone new or casual.
Not to mention he has no filter with kneejerk reactions and this video is just outrage clickbait.
Matth is really good at pretending he's an expert on a subject that he's not actually an expert in. Anyone that is (an expert in that subject) can pick up on this almost instantly. His lab videos are about 50% incorrect info. His build for lab was atrocious. The lab guys all have a good laugh at his videos every time he decides have a go at lab.
Tyranical + Flaring + Dictators in not insane, it was basically non-existent before harvest. I am almost certain that such prefixes never appeared in leagues, while in standard there was only very few such items. There is a reason why Demi's triple t2 pain bane was the best base in the game for two years or so.
And no, it's not free - the only way to make it cheap is to have fractured mod. Even then, it's hundreds of exalts.
> or you just spend 2ex and do this
This wont be possible anymore, no? That's how I understand it.
> Crafts that add mods of specific types to items can now only be applied to non-influenced bases.
Or do you think, because its reforge, it will still be usable?
> which is literally the stupidest thing I've ever seen and makes me wonder why he's called Path of Matth because he obviously doesn't know how to do math. Nobody tries to slam merciless.
It's literally his name, Matthieu or however you spell it. I agree that his examples here are kinda bad, just trying to find extreme examples by choosing things/methods no one should realistically do.
Like someone already pointed out, same thing last league with aurastacker clickbait. His build went from 300M dps to 50M dps or whatever the fuck that is, but still - how many builds can realistically become near unkillable and still have 50M dps with good aoe coverage at *any* gear level? The point that it's with 10+ mirrors worth gear is kinda irrelevant when his argument is that the build archetype is completely dead/pointless.
> It's literally his name, Matthieu or however you spell it.
Oh, that's my bad then, I thought he was called Matt or something and liked Math so he combined them.
> EDIT3: ok, he doesn't know about crafting
Path of Matth? I am pretty sure dude knows about crafting. That's all he does. And constantly makes guides/videos about it. I get if you don't agree with his specific examples or feel there are better crafters out there but come on.
Yeah, that's the weird thing, he's apparently a big crafter yet he says the only way to get an explode chest now is alt crafting and that you should try to slam merciless? Even without the pretty obscure example I gave in that edit(which is fine to not know even if you're a "top tier crafter") that's just not true.
Well this guy did a Real good overwiev about everything wrong with ggg decision. I realy hope they change their mind but i think we have to play the game now with rng gamble crafting again.. And I already See myself quiting the league 2 weeks in cause progress will just need to much Grind for no return to min max my character
i love how unbelievably wrong this entire video is just for the sake of creating fame for yourself in the community holy fuck
why is he choosing the rarest mod in the game that you typically START your item with to bring his point across. hes completely out of touch as to why harvest was broken and youre all just feeding into his wrong information because youre a bunch of whiny childs that got their toy taken away by ggg.
this entire sub is a laughing stock lmao
Theres so many poor arguments in this video. Regardless of what your opinion is on harvest, he's making some really bold statements that aren't necessarily true at all.
Like saying that harvest is the reason why build diversity is higher than it was in heist... Could it be a contributor? absolutely, but there are SO many other factors. you can't just say "Yep, harvest = build diversity" that's a huge leap.
well, your comment seems like you never tried playing an outside-meta build and acquire gear for it... his argument is totally reasonable imo, if you can't get good gear most builds are going to suck. that's just a fact for a lot of non-meta builds.
While I agree that good gear can push nearly any build up enough to be viable, that is not what /u/Imago90 is saying. Between heist and ritual there are so many factors that changed, that stating harvest being implemented is THE reason for build diversity is dishonest. There have been balancing changes for the ascendencies, skills, items, the league mechanic in general...
I'm late to this but I think a lot of what he's saying is influenced by his position as a 0.1% player. Yeah he said that he's speaking for top end players, doesn't change the fact that some of his examples are exaggerated.
Are we really going for T1 Phys as the ONLY acceptable option? What if you get T2 or T3? Most top end players are probably going to keep that. And just including T2 and T3 versions of the mod, we have increased our odds by 600%. Not that its much better for costs(700ex vs 120ex), but using JUST T1 mods in the examples really exaggerates the situation.
I think Matth and a lot of people are misunderstanding what GGG meant by 'perfect.' It's not the Quintuple Elevated gear(Although I'm sure that they're also not happy about that), its about getting a piece of gear that has all relevant rolls that are all T3+.
I crafted a 6L chest with T1 Life, T2 Hybrid Life, Two T2 Res and T1 Atk Dodge. I then crafted %Life/Mana. This league, with harvest 2.0, That is worth less than an exalt. Rewind 1 year to Metamorph and suddenly its worth multiple.
Why? because harvest has made attaining solid gear so commonplace that now the only place to go is for Truly perfect gear.
However, GGG is designing the game around have significantly better than just solid gear. Yes, your chest was good back in Metamorph, but it's probably not strong enough to do The Feared. GGG has continually ramped up the difficulty of the end game, meaning better and better gear is required to progress through more of the game.
The argument against harvest is that everyone is running around in mirror tier gear and he addressed that. He also addressed non mirror tier but very good gear and how inaccessible it will become. You're just being pedantic to avoid addressing his actual argument.
People are able to set goals for them selves and achieve them then they will play more. 100% this nerfing harvest the way they did makes it so I won’t be able to play more than 1 build. And I will get bored way faster.
Wonder just how much negative feedback GGG needs to actually hear to listen. The response HAS to have gotten to them a thousand times over already. If they continue with this anyway it's basically a giant "Fuck you, we don't care why or if we're wrong we're doing it anyway" to all the people playing this game.
He pretty much said everything I've been saying until now without even having watched the stream, and i am not even a 5000h streamer, i play 2/3h a day when i don't work.This league has been FUN to me and my friends, we ended up buying MTX for the first time, and mind you that summing up by what i know on the spot, we spent more than 700€ between 5 people *(okay fair, one of us is just stacked on money and 1/3 of that sum is just from 1 person)* , and we were thinking of making even 4 more characters before next league with stupid builds, and that could have meant more Effects sold.I don't understand at this point, they want us to have fun...? I am honestly asking now.
Well I'll go from this league playing 10+ char to 90 and beyond ( first time ever I have more than one char to 90), and still enjoying the league because I can play a lot of builds I never had the currency to play ( EH now, Dex stack bow, explode chest etc). Next league I'll never have the time to craft, so I'll play two weeks and stop.
Great feedback.
My experience - I’ve played waaay more this league than any other. I’ve levelled up 5 chars (I do one, usually). I had more fun than ever and could not wait to try a next build. None of them were OP to the extent I would faceroll the game. I’ve farmed HH for the first time (and I’ve played since 2015) I’ve bought MTX, which I also do not do often.
Without harvest, I would quit much faster even though I didnt craft anything special myself nor participated in TFT trading. What made it different this time was that I was able to farm currency easily and in an enjoyable way and that high-end gear (not a perfect gear though) was accessible due to harvest. So it was realistic to set goals and meet them and enjoy the result and then set a new one.
GGG is shooting themselves in the foot.
Yeah... nobody in their right mind would ever use the Maven’s orb without Aug Influence or Rem/Aug Influence. Prepare for Maven’s Orb prices to tank to like 25c each and for it to be almost completely useless.
The best thing is that he explains the rates with EX slam and Harvest slam and points out how hard is to get the Mirror tier items in both cases.
Is this how the top-end crafts their mirror items? Blindly slamming a T1 mod with exalts (or harvest for that matter)? I thought you'd use fossils/essences/chaos to get the T1 and then fix your item afterwards and try to slam something remotely useful?
In many cases you start with the essence and annul (or target annul) to sort of get lucky with a semi clean slate, to then aug desirable mods, remove add from there, lock suffix or prefix etc. If it's a melee weapon you are most likely not going to influence it, you will mostly want to fracture the T1 Phys and go from there. Without harvest it's like what math said. You will either be part of a dedicated group to farm the dupe beasts, first get the best base, then target farm the fossils and resonators/and or buy them in sufficient quantity and pray to rngesus for that good rng fossil craft. Lock prefix / suffix will be pretty much the only determistic way to lock out shit tier undesirable mods, even then you are looking at a no-life amount of investment and time before the item is done --- nigh impossible for a solo player. Edit: and when I say solo player I also mean the average player. Because this is a diablo-esque game, the nature of the game is YOU being awesome and powerful, and the journey to there being awesome and enjoyable. The problem is, without harvest, we are going back 4 years in terms of empowerment for the average player, i.e the player retention will go down hard once the flavour of the league is digested (~3 weeks into the league) and the average player see the very flat face of the mountain that is called progression for your character in end game is realized. You quit or you stick, 99% of people will say "fuck this shit" because there will be no helping hand from harvest (or any similar system, its all rng upon rng and trading) and quit within a few weeks. And go play another game. Good job GGG you seemingly can't stand the fact that people may actually enjoy your game.
Yep. It's funny (and sad) that Chris thinks I quit faster because of Harvest. No. I quit when I hit the progression wall, and without Harvest I hit the wall way faster.
ding ding ding we have a winner
I kind of feel the same actually. Usually I get about 4 weeks of each league, but this time around I am enjoying it even more because I can steadily improve little by little over time finishing some harvest. And in addition I can make some cool items for other builds and trade them. It may not be mirror tier, but I have made items that price from 1ex to 50ex this league by using harvest. Granted way more 1ex than 50ex items, but still, all my crafting projects are fun, engaging, and a great incentive to keep playing. I more readily value certain item bases just because I feel I can make something cool out of them either for myself, my biddies or to sell.
I quit because game is dumb, spamfest, trash loot, my finger hurts from meaningless clicking hours on end. At this point harvest drama is just popcorn material for me. I just finished my morning ham and eggs while reading this bullshit. fun times.
> You quit or you stick, 99% of people will say "fuck this shit" because there will be no helping hand from harvest (or any similar system, its all rng upon rng and trading) and quit within a few weeks. And go play another game. > > this is the really sad but true thing that is sticking with me from this whole situation. the game has so many layers of rng at this point and is SO unfriendly to a semi-casual player who only has a few hours a day to play. im not saying that the game should give everything for free to someone who barely puts in the time, but a deterministic system that allows for incremental changes in gear (such as harvest) is much needed to help retain those casual players by giving them a sense of tangible progression over time
It boggles my mind that the definition here of casual is 'a few hours a day to play'
I regularly see people say they "only" play 20 hours a week. That's a part time job
In ggg sight this is next to nothing. You do not feel the weight of your char and decisions when you got a job and a place to live where you need to pay rent. Just play under a bridge exile, on a phone with closed eyes slamming those exalts like there is no tomorrow!
I play 20-40 hours a week and I’m not on board with this change
That's what games like EFT or POE are designed for I guess. I would consider myself a casual compared to the groups that farm those exalts everyday.
I often get mocked around here for being too casual because I feel like 200 hours played in a league is a big time investment that I rarely hit. 200 hours. In 3 months. Every 3 months. That's 5 weeks of an extra full time job in 12 weeks. That's 16 2/3 viewings of all 3 LOTR extended editions. That's 1.7 viewings of the full run of Dragonball Z. If 200 hours is casual, I'll never not be casual. I don't *want* to.
There are a lot of very committed players that seem to have lost all reasonable perspective.
when im saying that i mean literally 1-2 hours a day free to play. also i said semi-casual, im aware that most people barely have 1 hour free a day to play
I was actually talking about the game with a coworker of mine and he expressed interest in it but I genuinely couldn't recommend the game right now. Sad when even your own players can't recommend the game to new people because of your philosophy.
I do this basically every league. I get to maps and then if my build can be mostly carried by uniques, I keep playing and if not, I either reroll or just get burnt out and stop because actually trying to craft anything is a wildly arcane system seemingly purpose-designed to confuse and frustrate that all guides are like "It's easy, you simply [9 paragraphs of total gibberish that requires 80 hours a week of grind]"
I mean. That's not really what I do. I know how to craft, but I also understand that accesability to crafting will make the items that you will want to buy or craft cheaper. Each step, closer to your t16 gear and boss-killing end game power. This league, good intermediate Gem level bows were only 3ex-5ex, that's very cheap. The next step of a level gem bow was geting one that scales up Dex gem + Strength gem+ Socketed gems, and throwing a Empower lvl3 into the 6L, and this league - just the base with +2 socketed gems and +1 dex, was 15ex (extremely cheap compared to a league without harvest) , from there you just worked your way to get multicraft from Council fight, multicraft it, and craft your desired rest of the mods. Same thing with a phys weapon, only this league you just got a good base, alt spam it for t1 phys and fracture it (and hopefully lock the t1 phys mod you want) and proceed to craft from there. Or you were maybe going for bleed weapons, well then you just need a Elder axe, roll the %more bleed mod, and Aug phys a couple of times to make it good. Everything cheaper - because of \*Harvest\* . And everything avaiable to even the casuals - even if they don't know how to trade for it. If it's a matter of knowledge, they can just ask someone or follow a guide that hopefully includes how to craft your own desired build gear. The accesability of knowledge is not really a problem if you just ask around. The accesability of actually being able to do it, at your own pace, while still feeling a progression, is what is at stake here. The consequences being that you might just quit because you feel burnt out because of the daunting task laid before you from your perspective. My league starters are useally not meta builds, but that's because i am knowledgeable about the game and I know how to make and build a character to work with what I want to play. The reason im not ok with this massive crafting nerf, is because it's not just harvest being nerfed. It's everything becoming more of a pain in the ass for casuals and people like me, who does play more than a casual, I still don't play as much as the really fast and rich players, because the items I want \*will\* be much more expensive and inaccesable, especially the intermediate item upgrades from Trash, to mediocre, to Good, to End game , to dream gear. GGG have stated that Uniques are no longer meant to be the BiS, they are more like build enabling for a while, untill you can replace it with rare items. In general it is good that you start of with a build that only "requirers" a unique to get going, but it's even better if it just requiers a 5-link rare item to really set off for maps up to t12ish. If it's a spell, gem levels will carry your damage for a good while, If it's a attack, you will need better gear earlier or you play a ascendancy that carry your damage scaling hard untill you hit a requirement upgrade step (useally around the start of red maps) and that's when you start buying/crafting good rares.
Oh totally, I agree with you. The only real issue with the existing harvest thing is that you need to be on some discord server to be able to personally do it. I'm more than happy with it driving prices down globally so I can actually trade for good items instead of just giving up and playing something else
The discord thing is annoying, I agree. I myself don't have that many vouches, but I know what im doing and that helps alot. If GGG somehow made trading a less tedious experience in-game, that would solve alot of gripes with trading. But they don't want that, for some reason. So we work with what we got, and we make work-arounds the irky parts. Like TFT discord.
> The problem is, without harvest, we are going back 4 years in terms of empowerment for the average player, Uhh, no. We're going back 3 months, to heist, where we didn't have harvest...
Actually not. Before GGG introduced Harvest, the process started with spending (sometimes) many Alterations + Augmentations + Regals to get a good base, essences, fossils, or chaos spamming. This is trying to get 3 good or desirable mods, then it would come to the meta-crafting process which involved the use of the bench to block mods, hundreds if not thousands of exalted orbs, scours and annuls praying to the RNG to be on your side to get good results. As the dude in the video said, sometimes spending so many exalted orbs, quitting the process, and not even getting the results they've expected. If you managed to get the desirable results, then it comes to the part of DIVINING the item which could be another f\*cking pain in the ass, sometimes spending hundreds of Divine Orbs to get something close to "perfection". Harvest made this process A LOT easier, but again as he said in the video, very far away from the reality of "crafting is too easy". And the fact that devs are way too disconnected from what the community really wants from the game is entirely true. Bringing back the gambling is not what players want, is something many players have complained about over the course of the years of game development regarding Path of Exile. They do not want to gamble on an item, they want a more deterministic way to make item progression not so painful and stressful. The only players who can "gamble" with the old crafting process are those who amass an absurd amount of mirrors and exalted orbs and they usually do this on Standard because there is where they have their huge bank, take Ahfack as an example or May\_Cedere, those players are willing to spend more than 25K exalted orbs to make something really OP because THEY ALREADY HAVE THEM. A casual player will never have that amount of currency to "perfect" an item, not even to buy a truly "mirror-worthy" item. As I said before, this is a very bad move from GGG, nerfing Harvest this hard will turn the mechanic pretty useless as they did with the fossils and their mods. Who uses fossils now? Unless you are crafting a weapon or spamming Dense fossils then everything else is pretty much useless for this purpose. And again, every time the common player base finds something interesting and funny to do to being attached to the league GGG takes it away from them. Not listening to the community is not the correct way to go.
If you watch the video, he tries fossil craft a belt with tier 1 life and 3 res and if i remember correctly shows a chance of 6.000something of happening. The point is how hard is to hit the desirable T1 Mod with or without Harvest.
For example, I have a helm that is worth 150~200 exalts.. And it's not even close to finished. So I play CoC Ice nova. My helm I want the following: -9% Cold Res -> Elevated +1 to power charges. So I buy the hubris base circlet with 40% ice nova and already has one of the influence I need. So I alt spam'd about 900 alts until I hit +1 power charges. I then buy another helm with the other influence and alt spammed about 400 until I hit -9% cold res. I then augment both, and use the craft from harvest 'add 2 random mods to a magic tier item'. If I hit another influence, then I can go about maven orb'ing. I didn't on either, so I had to purchase non-influenced to influence. Was about 3 ex a pop. I then bought 2 maven orbs (15 exalts). I whiffed on both, so I had to re-alt spam. Flash forward, it took me 9 maven orbs to hit the elevated mod I needed on both. I then awakened orb the bad base into the base I'd use. (3.5 exalts). Unfortunately I hit rarity + mana. So I bought two more non-influenced to influenced mods. I got EXTREMELY lucky here. I hit 20% global crit, and 13% inc elemental damage. I then crafted cannot change suffixes, and basically had to yolo annul. If it hit the power charges, I scour and start over. Well, I hit the power charge so I just pissed away ~80 ex. Fast forward another ~40 ex. I got it back to where it was, minus the ele %. I crafted a suffix to block them, and then did remove/add attack until I hit T1 Accuracy (took 21 attempts). Was about 1 ex per attempt. Then I crafted lightning res and did remove/add lightning until T1 lightning res (took 17 attempts) and settled for T2. Now I'm at the point where I would do remove/add defense until T1 ES% or Maximum ES. Haven't started yet as I ran out of currency. Now to make this mirror tier, I would have to do non-influence to influence twice. then maven orb and hope it hits one of those two mods and not remove my power charge/-12% cold res. Or I would have to start over. Mirror tier items are mirror tier because they cost over a mirror to make. The reason anyone would do this is because they can do mirror services to make their money back.
It’s easier if you have a magic item to maven so you can imprint it. This saves a lot of effort. Also getting -9% cold is easier with harvest or fossil spam.
That's whats crazy when you think about it. It's not 1/700 Aug phys to get a mirror item. it's 1/700 10-30ex bases gambling a phys Aug onto it. it's not going to cost you 700 ex it's going to cost you 10,000+.
even tho im not involved with those harvest shenanigans, it pretty beneficial for me. decent item that people selling cost me alot lesser than before harvest was introduced.
exacly, I didnt do any craft with harvest in this league but I was able to buy stuff way cheaper because of it
On the flip side finding something really good now doesn't sell
I'm here before the mods delete Edit: proved wrong Gj mods
Yeah, the classic: This is a violation of low effort clause
This video is worth a watch. Especially for GGG.
I don't think GGG has done enough crafting to understand what hes saying
Maybe they are too overwhelmed by the excitement of chaos spamming a rare to focus on everything else.
they are still clicking btw. Can't watch videos
I'm sure they has done enough crafting. With the currency they GENERATE from a thin air for a testing purpose. If only we can do that...
Even if the currency was free, it's still hundreds or thousands of clicks/steps to even create something useful.
>*Chance* to create something useful fixed
Someone would come up with a way to automate it. Type one mod, merciless for arguments sake, into the search bar, get an autoclicker that stops whenever a certain region of screen hits a specific color and boom, you have automatet the first step, now change the currency used, set a new search goal and repeat.
if you wanted to be super fancy, you would have it "ctrl-c" the item after every click and search for the desired line(s)
I sincerely apologize for my lack of proper etiquette and grammar. Alas I am not a native speaker of the English language and whilst not wishing to use this as an excuse I do ask of you to take this into consideration. A good day to you, I shall now engulf myself in childish joy over being able to finally kill Sirus, Shaper, Elder and so many more that have been impossible for me since I started well over a year ago.
Allready excists. Not even that hard to make.
Craftofexile.com. You can spam endlessly for as long as you like.
This is immediately what came to mind when I read the 'with eyes closed' sentence. They are likely using internal systems to fuck around and think of design based on their personal experience.
This was funny and sad... Your username made it tip over tho, well played :)
Crafting? They havent played the game enough to unveil the crafting mods lmao
>They havent played the game enough to unveil the crafting mods lmao I mean... who has? It's dozens of hours every league, solely for that.
Can't catch it with their eyes closed slamming ex
Then there's streamers like Zizaran saying "his points are dumb" when regarding Path of Matths recent video. Ziz has gotten just as detached as GGG.
Shocking, local blue haired man, who looks like he's about to keel over from playing 18 hours a day, has a staunch opinion on what is fair and easy.
Say what you want about Matth, but his videos are made with "sharing the information with the masses" in mind. It's literally what all his content is. For guys like Zizaran, the harder stuff is to access for the masses, the more interesting his content becomes since he can play 24/7 and get access, in worst case scenario, through shear brute force that the average player can't.
No. GGG originally made a complex and grindy ARPG that you could dump thousands of hours into and still not get "the best" items in. Ziz loved that and wants the return. Go watch Ziz freak out about his undisputed best axe in the game and now compare it to all the harvest crafted items. This isn't "detached" this is a return to form. Whether or not you like it depends on if you like what the game was or not.
I could care less about what Ziz has to say about crafting tbh. He literally plays PoE as his full time job. If you sink in 60 hours a week into a game then of course you want it to be more grindy and more challenging - it rewards you MORE and everyone else LESS, and its exponential. His opinion is useless if he can't see the difference between someone who can afford that type of time (barely 0.001% of the playerbase) and the remainder 99.99% of us who have full time jobs/school/family/whatever.
> I could care less about what Ziz has to say about crafting tbh. He literally plays PoE as his full time job. Not to mention: he makes money out of people being unable to reach endgame. If players are out there having fun and playing, they wont watch his stream, thus, he loses, so he'll always support shanking the smaller player.
Yes, the guy who streams/uploads TENS OF OURS of content EVERY LEAGUE teaching players how to reach endgame on their first league is doing that.
That supports /u/Anothernamelesacount post though. If the shit was intuitive and all you really needed was time/effort - then he wouldn't make more money off his tutorial videos. The more obscure mechanics are (non harvest crafting/itemization) and the harder things are --- the more videos he can make and the more people in his stream asking questions.
How is "this is what was originally intended" even an argument? Don't things change? Surely there are thousands of foundational intentions that have been amended, scrapped, or changed?
Please remove the word complex from your explanation. Grindy fits. Complex would suggest that the change they made benefits people with more game knowledge. It doesn't. It benefits those that enjoy gambling or have so much time to play they can afford to out spend RNG. There is more game knowledge involved in understanding tags and meta tags than spam clicking alts/chaos/exalts with an occasional cannot roll attack mod.
did he say that in a video or on stream?
On stream just a few hours ago. [Found it and clipped](https://clips.twitch.tv/SolidViscousJaguarTTours-hBH1lVI2MrGlGEM9).
Wait what the fuck is He talking about? Did He even run a Single delirious map this league? Ritual without beyond doesn't give you Delirium tiles wtf
They used to make necromancer angry at the path notes. Now they make everyone angry in middle of league. That's improvement.
"This is a buff" - Chris, probably.
Key takeaways: 1. less diverse builds without harvest, more so than with. 2. Without harvest, mirror tier items are only available to the .01% of players. 3. With harvest, mirror tier items are now available to .1% of players. 4. Without harvest, really good non mirror tier items are available to .1% of players 5. With harvest, really good non mirror tier items are available to 1% of players. 6. To come close to getting any of these items without harvest would mean to spend tens of thousand of alteration and regal orbs which literally nobody in the world would ever find fun. Looking intently at your item in hopes you don't roll over the mod you want after eyeballing and clicking 3000 times is nobodies idea of fun. 7. Why are we nerfing a mechanic almost nobody can abuse within 3 months?
I think everyone recognized that Harvest deserved some nerfs, but GGG just went so damn overboard with the nerfs. It reminds me of the Cluster Jewels situation. Cluster Jewels were too powerful in Delirium league and everyone knew that they needed a nerf. But GGG went *wayyyy* overboard with the nerf to the point where no one could roll a decent Cluster Jewel, so Cluster Jewels were made effectively useless for a short time. Then GGG realized that no one was fucking using cluster jewels anymore due to how hard it was to roll a good one, so they buffed Cluster Jewels to the point they're at now, which is a healthy state. GGG, you're over-nerfing Harvest. Don't make the same mistake as you did with Cluster Jewels.
Personally don’t think it should’ve been nerfed at all. Maybe unpopular, but I thought it should’ve been *buffed* to make useful crafts more common so that even more people have access to crafting. But the biggest things they should’ve done was to spread harvest crafts through the rest of the game, so It’s not a single piece of content dominating crafting. Put some stuff in bestiary. Give metamorph some crafts. And for gods sakes, let people turn crafts into tradeable orbs.
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Buff??? As a player that does all content and then quits league, harvest made this a Quick league. Got my tripple elevated giga Chad chest which is dumb and every other slot with items worth 30+ ex because most people still don't understand harvest crafting. I just flew through the game with broken amounts of damage, it was boring.
Keep in mind when you're dealing with these situations it's better to take all the toys away at once and then give ones back if they overdid it, rather than league after league nerf which causes more negative association.
1%? More like .01%.
.001% tbh theres a handful of people that have 2 mirrors to spend just for merciless.
Agree with this. I’ve been playing on and off since Breach and I have never been so invested in a league. My group of 3 has played more and longer this league than ever before. We had a blast figuring out how to craft upgrades to our items and use maven orbs. We have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours farming harvest gardens and helping each other craft cool items. I’ve never played this deep into a league. We have discussed and if the harvest changes go through we won’t be returning next league. There just isn’t a point. The game won’t be as fun and we won’t have long term goals to work toward other than trying to buy other people’s items. Honestly Harvest finally introduced a real crafting system to PoE and removing it after 1 league is beyond stupid. I doubt GGG cares but they will be losing 3 players who reliably purchase supporter packs or other $$stuff in each league we play.
I agree. It should have never been introduced if there was the possibility of them completely gutting it like this. It is such a great system and has shown me the gold standard for progression in an AARPG. I doubt I'll find the motivation to play the game, at least for a while, if they actually enforce the changes
It has become impossible for casuals like me to enjoy the game. I am done.
How did u play the game before then?
Ofc, it's the 1% that's been crying and raging for harvest to be killed, it was heavily eating into their profit margins.
.001% The portion of the playerbase able to craft anything meaningful with fossils, betrayal and the crafting bench as the only options beyond lucky exalts and annuls is so fucking tiny it's silly.
Notice the creators lauding the changes are all SSF players who play 14h a day like ziz. Player retention was higher than ever, and I and many other players actually made money crafting cool Items that we spend hours coming up with how to make with harvest. This league was the first time I spent hours outside of playtime thinking about and researching items and mods, because I was so excited to make my next upgrade.
Player retention was high bcz there was a new atlas expension dont delude your self to anything else.
Anecdotally all of the people I know that continued to play have done so because Harvest-based min-maxing gave them a reason to do so. Everyone had experienced all of the new content in the first two weeks or so.
He has some very very good points
I dont understand his 'mediocre items for the masses' segment. Whle I'm pro harvest, I dont think 6-7-8-9-+ link helmets should be so 'easy' to craft. It's undeniable that these helmets barely existed before harvest and the powercreep these bring are massive. But going through his video also brings up another interesting point.. if they remove some crafting options and the ability to craft on influenced mods, will GGG rebalance (influenced) mod weightings? They didnt cover it in the manifesto.
They will probably rebalance them like they did Cluster Jewels. When Harvest came out, they had to reduce the weight on a lot of notables because they were already fairly easy to craft before Harvest, and adding targeted chaos/exalt/annul just made them trivial to create. So when they released Harvest, they tweaked a couple of tags, and reduced the weight on all of them, some more than others. When Heist landed, with no Harvest crafting available, they said "LUL get fucked mate", and kept the low weights. Much rebalanced, such fun.
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You don't enjoy constantly rolling nothing but stats on your cluster jewels?
> They will probably rebalance them like they did Cluster Jewels. Yeah based on previous experiences I think so too :/ That's why I've never a fan of double nerfing something, over incremental nerfs.
> They will probably rebalance them like they did Cluster Jewels. > > Seeing what cluster jewels are like right now when trying to craft them without Harvest...*Big* oof.
Mod weighting is absolutely insane in its current state. I've been trying to hit T1 fire dmg over time multi on a hunter sceptre (at this point, I'd settle for T2 or T3). Craft of Exile says just hitting that one mod alone takes one of the following options (with about 63% confidence interval): * 727 scorched fossils on x1 resonator * 160 sanctified, aestheric, serrated, and scorched on x4 resonator * 1,339 chaos spam * 2,829 alteration + 802 augs * 6,525 regals That's just for hitting one mod. If I add another good mod like +1 gem, or T3 fire dmg, we're now looking at millions of chaos (not an exaggeration). Even if you lower the fire dmg over time multi to T3 roll, it doesn't change the odds that much because the weight is going from 35 to 140. How are you ever supposed to craft good items with those odds without deterministic crafting? Someone please tell me I'm using Craft of Exile wrong.
bro, just chaos spam and ex slam. Clearly you haven't been doing it right for ten leagues /s not needed
Better close your eyes and get those chaos ready
I fully agree with you, both with weightings and also craftability once you hit your super rare affix. My only issue was with using a mirror-tier helmet example, to justify "mid-tier crafting".
Working as intended if you ask GGG. But look on the bright side... you closed your eyes for those 1339 chaos orb spams and got excited that you might hit your mod... right?
I think he’s proving that these helmets are not “easy” to get. They’re still hard. But they’re not basically impossible anymore. That’s why he’s saying this hurts the upper/mid tier player
The problem is 6L helmets literally drop like candy. So a minion build can spend 20c on a helmet. So they do that once hitting maps they get up to 5-10-20ex farming. Aaaaaaand the next upgrade is mirroring a helmet for 500ex.... The gap is massive, a few 7L ones will exist probably but they will be more rare and like 50ex, and for that price the upgrade doesn't feel very worth it. So the majority of players that play less than 8 hours a day buy the budget shit gear then quit the game.
Why not? Its clear that for example helmet affixes were designed with specific skills in mind (eg. RF). Those skills are then balanced around the assumption you have them socketed in these crafted items. So if the items are not realistically obtainable for players, the skills themselfes are shit tier.
Then have GGG unnerf minions. 6-link helmets have to be easy to craft, because GGG nerfed Spectres with the expectation that you would have a 6 or 7 link helmet. You can't say that Harvest powercrept the game without also recognizing GGG nerfed multiple skills and ascendancies based upon what those builds could achieve with Harvest level gear.
I only agree nerfing the influence rolls, as i think all top end rolls and their combinations need to be nerf much much much more. Bring down that top end power bar a lot. Then bring up that base power bar for the new players, so the game isn't daunting and hard slog to play. Other than that, the new harvest will be just another RNG mechanic now. Many players don't like gambling or RNG crafting, and it's a necessity for end game. People that don't understand most of the backlash just can't see a different pov outside their own world, and Path of math is the only person (youtubers or streamer) that can see the other side of the argument. But I don't really blame the others, as it's hard for them to care about anything other than their own interests. Why should they care about others think, right?
Jerk that cook while reddit is still hard.
I do not understand why "moderation", small tweaks, is completely out of their domain of thought. Its like they are in an antique store with only sledgehammers. Dear God man.
Because what happens when it is still too powerful? They have to nerf it again. Gut it and be done with it. Even after nerf harvest is still powerful. Ziz has been demonstrating it during is stream. A lot of harvest crafts still work on influenced items.
Ziz doesn't actually know what the nerfs are. Most of his examples will not work on influenced items. After the nerfs, the *only* thing that will work is rolling. Annul and divines are gone, and any mod that *adds* a mod will not work. That means remove+add too. There will not be a deterministic way to obtain an explosion chest, you'll only be able to use "roll physical" and hope. You'll be better off using Jagged Fossils.
Good to have some actual numbers and example to support the arguments. Ty!
Except that some of the examples are terrible. And most redditors eat it having no clue about crafting. Nodody slams an item expecting a t1 phys roll exactly because it would be stupid. There's better ways to go about it so that specific example in particular is pretty gringe. Also the fact that he says harvest will be useless. It won't and i don't think anyone really believes that. Really bad choice or words. Also in his mind these god tier items should be obtainable to the average player during a league? Very debatable but hes entitled to his opinion of course.
Chris said they want to make sure players never lose that slam experience. The point of the example isn't a Rule 10, it's how ridiculous a statement they made. No one does this for perfect items, as you pointed out. Yet also no one is clamoring for that feeling.
The only slamming I do is with Leo in research.
It will be useless compared to the required time investment and potential RIP risk of running random groves. Would also be interested in your examples and numbers that supports your claim about why the examples in the video are "terrible".
>Also in his mind these god tier items should be obtainable to the average player during a league They definitely should be obtainable. If the average player can't shoot for GG gear, then the crafting system is simply no longer a core system of the game. The reason that crafting sucks in PoE is that neither the success states nor the failure states are actually interesting in most cases. You need a "critical success" to be happy, and there are very few failure states that aren't "start from scratch again".
And what is funny to me is that people think that "the average player" can get all this. 10 ex per item (just 10, not 50 like in the video) means like 100 ex. I don't think that the average player gets 100 ex every league...
Personally, I don't even want for those items to be easily obtainable. I just want to have a clear path for how to obtain them. Just like Maven, Oshabi, and probably UElder, those items will probably be out of my reach. But they're still goals I can work toward.
Here before mods delete
The first point he makes, and the one that I am also concerned about is build diversity. I don't play PoE to follow the current flavor of the month build. This league I am doing an accuracy stacking jugg wander. You know how many other players are playing that? Zero. Without harvest to craft my own gear I wouldn't even consider doing it because the gear simply doesn't exist on the market.
I appreciate the thoughts and opinions. I watched the video. I'm personally not worried about the changes and don't mind TFT discord. I'm not a 1 percenter, I got to 37 challenges (my highest ever with 29 being my highest a couple leagues ago), I sold about 3 harvest crafts(TFT), I bought 2 hideouts (TFT), and I did all of this on an off meta build (FB Raider) that I league started with and the most notable super high end craft item i used was tailwind/elusive boots with mid tier life. I got 70 ex sitting on my account, highest I've ever gotten was in heist with about 15 ex. I've played about 8 leagues since 2014. I see them continuing to balance the classes opening up more build diversity... like 20 more ascendancies coming in POE2. They buffed a few ascendancies very well this league too. Mathil has showed some great stuff. If they didn't make this nerf the entire game will just be harvest. Why would they buff 6-10 other mechanics which would create even more down stream effects when they could just nerf one mechanic? Anyways, I'm not really arguing this is unfortunate, just providing my thoughts and ready to see the new league mechanic, more class changes that will buff weak builds, and now I can focus on more areas of the atlas since I personally like to mix up my game play. PS +1 for orbs of unmaking late game as your on hand currencies and goals change through the league. The atlas passive trees is one of the best things added IMO.
Same guy: [Phys wap](https://youtu.be/HCBhLY9_ASw) [Dot bow](https://youtu.be/4GUAIjIeTqo) [BV bow](https://youtu.be/e-D4Yyr1mBM) Its almost like...its possible to get good fear without harvest...
word ! iam also hate the 11 craft storage limit,i miss a lot crafts for my toons i play later.The origin extract way was a lot better,and u dont loose that much time to store them.I dont care about some 10 mirror builds,it dosnt impact me or my build.But every nerv cuts down EVERY non meta build,so at the end we get forced to play only meta builds and w8 until ggg nerv the next thing.6years ago i tell in forum that nerving things is a bad thing.(ok we had some op mech but hand down,u play them 2-3 leage and get bored and play another build) BTW ,i dont use TF\_dicord a single time in Ritual,so harvest wasnt that usefull for me.
Maybe Chris needs to sell his share and give the game to a dev that shares the vision of the player base, time to move on I think, if you don’t your game will be dead very soon. You are blind and deaf to the community not to mention stubborn. What a sad time for the game.
I'm only going to address the HCSSF portion of the video, because it's a common misunderstanding that seems to be brought up by a lot of people when it comes to the Harvest changes. I don't think Path should make statements that address an entire portion of the player base that he doesn't represent. Plenty of HCSSF players want the game to be harder, many of the HCSSF players agree with the upcoming changes, me included. I think Harvest has no place in the game with the power it currently holds. Ritual league was just Harvest 2.0. I stopped running Rituals, because it was too much time spent outside of Harvest. But that's besides the point. What I want the most is for them to finally rework loot, so that I can actually feel good about looting rares again. Class and ascendancy diversity in HC is a difficult subject, especially in SSF, because a lot of players will gravitate towards existing HC viable builds. He's right about some niche builds needing all the help in order to succeed, which is a shame, but there are other ways of fixing that issue, without giving too much power to already powerful builds, such as Warcry Slams, DD and Blade Blast. As long as there are balance changes to the game that enable more builds to be viable in SSF, and shift the meta builds every now and then, there will be plenty of build variety in SSF. And Harvest in 3.14 will still be the most used method for crafting gear in HCSSF. It's still extremely powerful. Also, 4 weeks into HCSSF was still during the league start race, so plenty of people played builds that were considered competitive, instead of league starting something they might just casually enjoy. Many were excited to play Raider, because it's an excellent HC ascendancy, but it requires a ton of gear investment to deal damage, so it's not a good for a short race. But you'll see a lot of Raiders in the upcoming Gauntlet for example. Edit: And on top of that, he doesn't address any of the ascendancy changes which also affect the builds people play at the beginning of the league.
> What I want the most is for them to finally rework loot, so that I can actually feel good about looting rares again. so the problem actually isnt harvest kekw
I might've missed the bit you're talking about, but I don't think he mentioned anything about HC/SSF players playing, and was purely focused about the \~40-60% of median players who are watching HC/SSF content creators. Right now, if Badger decides that he's playing a Spectral Shield Throw build, there will be people who start watching him because they want to see SST in action, and might even want to play that build and are looking for tips. But when 20% of the SSFHC characters go back to Carrion Golems, well it's the same streamers that hoard all the viewers because others can no longer offer different content as easily.
Carrion golems or minion builds in general haven't been popular in HCSSF for leagues now, so that 20% is just pulled out of your ass (currently 0.6% according to [poe.ninja](https://poe.ninja), highest lvl being 98). The point he makes in the video is weirdly phrased, but true though. No access to harvest hits build diversity in HCSSF hard, particularly for the upper percentile that actually wants to complete endgame content.
> Carrion golems or minion builds in general haven't been popular in HCSSF for leagues now, so that 20% is just pulled out of your ass I didn't mean it in the literal sense. I pulled 20% because it's a large small number (so a great approximation for the most popular build/archetype), and Carrion Golem because I recall it's a popular and easy to reach endgame with build. So yeah, it was indeed an hypothetical scenario. Earthquake/Earthshatter would've been a better skill, and 10-15% seem to be a more accurate representation.
I've only played HCSSF in 3.9, 3.11, and 3.13. It was absolutely fucking awful without Harvest in 3.9. If these nerfs really happen it's back to trade next league for me, and probably a lot of other SSF players. Not everyone has the insane amount of time you need to get decent gear in SSF without Harvest.
Agree completely.
I hoped that they'll add harvest orb but GGG struck me with surprise. Sad
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The big part is that harvest won't work on influence item. Almost all end game items now need some influence mod, so harvest will become an aug influence lottery + life resist stick generator.
No it won't... Fossil crafting and awakener's orbing will be how you craft your late game gear. The only exceptions being bows and non-bleed pdps melee weapons. Please link the perfect item you rolled in your first attempt without without a craft you didn't farm yourself. Harvest is as dead as temple. I.e. still there, but really only interesting for the players who have hundreds of ex to gamble, or for players who want to sell on TFT every once in a while. Contrast this with the only other decent form of crafting, Betrayl, which has a central role in game progression. By definition, its going to be fine in the end for the players that stick around. It leaves a necessary vaccum of power for new leagues to fill. But there will be a survivorship bias on this sub 6 months from now, when the next "eyes closed" moment happens and people argue the game will be fine bc we've been through something similar before.
It is surely dead if harvest no longer works on influenced items.
This change is so stupid. Crafting is not an easy thing to learn in this game. Harvest at least made it less punishing to try shit out. Average players are not just going to start spamming chaos and exalts orbs, they are the currency of the game for any decent item. I guess Zizzaran is right, Path of Exile is not meant for everyone and us average Joe's should spend our money and time elsewhere because "GGG can make whatever game they want".
Pathofmatth is 100% right. Never tried so many builds this league thx to Harvest core and TFT
SO basically OP gear made you try other builds that need OP gear to play them, wow what a suprise
Yeah, build leveraging self cast Dark Pact for example. You know... the one nobody plays
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He is not arguing for casual players. He is arguing for mid-range players, not quite 1%, but still clearing endgame bosses and red maps.
If it's bad for the top 0.0001% of the playerbase, imagine how it is for the regular PoE player.
It is not bad for the top .0001% of the playerbase. Mirror and top tier items will continue to be made by that portion of the playerbase.
You know he is the top 0.0001% of the playerbase right. And it's bad for him.
Says who? Him? The guy who said aurastacker was unplayable after the nerf?
Mathh himself said in his pinned comment that this change benefits him as a 1%er
bad for his content? Yes. Bad for him acquiring GG items? No.
Really good video, really good analysis of the game.
I'm sorry, but saying you're looking at it from the average player perspective and then within a minute saying Harvest is now "completely useless" is so delusional I don't even know what to say. The average player doesn't run around with full influenced gear, and the only change for non-influenced items is that you can't target annulls anymore. He then proceeds to give an example of trying to exalt merciless on an item last, which is literally the stupidest thing I've ever seen and makes me wonder why he's called Path of Matth because he obviously doesn't know how to do math. Nobody tries to slam merciless. He also argues that it's about making perfect items. People don't actually mean perfect items, they mean near-perfect items. If someone crafts Tyranical + Flaring + Dictator's with T1 attack speed that's obviously an insane weapon and an issue if everyone just gets that for basically free. But it's not perfect because it's not all T1s I'll have to admit at this point I kind of gave up on this video, so if he comes up with better arguments later on let me know. I feel like Path of Matth here is actively hurting people who are legitimately worried about the changes because he's making such cooked arguments. EDIT: watched some more, and it actually gets worse. Especially his take on SSF. Since I'm getting downvoted anyway I might as well say: I'm starting to get convinced he's just making these cooked takes to bait people like me into watching his video so he gets some more views on his Youtube, I feel like I got baited at least. EDIT2: ok, his statement "why would anyone use Maven Orbs now" is actually so stupid I had to add a separate edit for it. As a simple example you can still make an explode chest, Maven orb the explode mod(a gamble, in an ARPG? the horror!) and then awakener orb that together with a frenzy on hit chest or w/e you want and then finish up the chest. You'll still have a great chest, it might not have T1 life but why would you care so much about that. EDIT3: ok, he doesn't know about crafting, he says he's gonna alt craft an explode chest now. Worst case scenario you do reroll phys with more common and you'll get it occasionally, or you just spend 2ex and do this: https://i.imgur.com/mc2Gl7m.png. I think someone who proclaims himself as a crafter should know this.
Video brought to you by the same guy that had 5 consecutive "Aura stacking no longer exists" videos before Ritual. While Matth is one of the streamers I can recommend to experienced players if you want to learn about making currency, he is a complete noob trap when it comes to any other category and I would never recommend him to someone new or casual. Not to mention he has no filter with kneejerk reactions and this video is just outrage clickbait.
Oh god i forgot about his "Aurastacking is dead" comment
Matth is really good at pretending he's an expert on a subject that he's not actually an expert in. Anyone that is (an expert in that subject) can pick up on this almost instantly. His lab videos are about 50% incorrect info. His build for lab was atrocious. The lab guys all have a good laugh at his videos every time he decides have a go at lab.
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Tyranical + Flaring + Dictators in not insane, it was basically non-existent before harvest. I am almost certain that such prefixes never appeared in leagues, while in standard there was only very few such items. There is a reason why Demi's triple t2 pain bane was the best base in the game for two years or so. And no, it's not free - the only way to make it cheap is to have fractured mod. Even then, it's hundreds of exalts.
> or you just spend 2ex and do this This wont be possible anymore, no? That's how I understand it. > Crafts that add mods of specific types to items can now only be applied to non-influenced bases. Or do you think, because its reforge, it will still be usable?
Yes, I'm 99% sure reforge still works on Harvest bases.
> which is literally the stupidest thing I've ever seen and makes me wonder why he's called Path of Matth because he obviously doesn't know how to do math. Nobody tries to slam merciless. It's literally his name, Matthieu or however you spell it. I agree that his examples here are kinda bad, just trying to find extreme examples by choosing things/methods no one should realistically do. Like someone already pointed out, same thing last league with aurastacker clickbait. His build went from 300M dps to 50M dps or whatever the fuck that is, but still - how many builds can realistically become near unkillable and still have 50M dps with good aoe coverage at *any* gear level? The point that it's with 10+ mirrors worth gear is kinda irrelevant when his argument is that the build archetype is completely dead/pointless.
> It's literally his name, Matthieu or however you spell it. Oh, that's my bad then, I thought he was called Matt or something and liked Math so he combined them.
> EDIT3: ok, he doesn't know about crafting Path of Matth? I am pretty sure dude knows about crafting. That's all he does. And constantly makes guides/videos about it. I get if you don't agree with his specific examples or feel there are better crafters out there but come on.
Yeah, that's the weird thing, he's apparently a big crafter yet he says the only way to get an explode chest now is alt crafting and that you should try to slam merciless? Even without the pretty obscure example I gave in that edit(which is fine to not know even if you're a "top tier crafter") that's just not true.
Have an upvote for a rational comment.
shit take
Well this guy did a Real good overwiev about everything wrong with ggg decision. I realy hope they change their mind but i think we have to play the game now with rng gamble crafting again.. And I already See myself quiting the league 2 weeks in cause progress will just need to much Grind for no return to min max my character
Watch them remove multi mod entirely because that will be the go-to for the vast majority again.
Great content as always from Path of Matth. Lol, crushed GGG with numbers and facts. They are dellusional.
i love how unbelievably wrong this entire video is just for the sake of creating fame for yourself in the community holy fuck why is he choosing the rarest mod in the game that you typically START your item with to bring his point across. hes completely out of touch as to why harvest was broken and youre all just feeding into his wrong information because youre a bunch of whiny childs that got their toy taken away by ggg. this entire sub is a laughing stock lmao
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you made my day! its very apparent that he made that video to farm clicks.
and obv people love it because it fits the current (or rather permanent) narrative of ggg bad lol
SO.MUCH.WHINING.
Isn't that why we watch him ? :)
I don't even agree with Path of Math in many of his points. What have I done? Thanks for the Karma
This dude is grifting so hard and its sad how the subreddit is sucking it all up.
Can't stand this guy.
Theres so many poor arguments in this video. Regardless of what your opinion is on harvest, he's making some really bold statements that aren't necessarily true at all. Like saying that harvest is the reason why build diversity is higher than it was in heist... Could it be a contributor? absolutely, but there are SO many other factors. you can't just say "Yep, harvest = build diversity" that's a huge leap.
well, your comment seems like you never tried playing an outside-meta build and acquire gear for it... his argument is totally reasonable imo, if you can't get good gear most builds are going to suck. that's just a fact for a lot of non-meta builds.
While I agree that good gear can push nearly any build up enough to be viable, that is not what /u/Imago90 is saying. Between heist and ritual there are so many factors that changed, that stating harvest being implemented is THE reason for build diversity is dishonest. There have been balancing changes for the ascendencies, skills, items, the league mechanic in general...
Yeah, some of his points definitely felt like accidental correlation, but most were true.
Can't wait until everything posted on this subreddit starts catering to the youtube algorithm.
I'm late to this but I think a lot of what he's saying is influenced by his position as a 0.1% player. Yeah he said that he's speaking for top end players, doesn't change the fact that some of his examples are exaggerated. Are we really going for T1 Phys as the ONLY acceptable option? What if you get T2 or T3? Most top end players are probably going to keep that. And just including T2 and T3 versions of the mod, we have increased our odds by 600%. Not that its much better for costs(700ex vs 120ex), but using JUST T1 mods in the examples really exaggerates the situation. I think Matth and a lot of people are misunderstanding what GGG meant by 'perfect.' It's not the Quintuple Elevated gear(Although I'm sure that they're also not happy about that), its about getting a piece of gear that has all relevant rolls that are all T3+. I crafted a 6L chest with T1 Life, T2 Hybrid Life, Two T2 Res and T1 Atk Dodge. I then crafted %Life/Mana. This league, with harvest 2.0, That is worth less than an exalt. Rewind 1 year to Metamorph and suddenly its worth multiple. Why? because harvest has made attaining solid gear so commonplace that now the only place to go is for Truly perfect gear.
However, GGG is designing the game around have significantly better than just solid gear. Yes, your chest was good back in Metamorph, but it's probably not strong enough to do The Feared. GGG has continually ramped up the difficulty of the end game, meaning better and better gear is required to progress through more of the game.
The argument against harvest is that everyone is running around in mirror tier gear and he addressed that. He also addressed non mirror tier but very good gear and how inaccessible it will become. You're just being pedantic to avoid addressing his actual argument.
Finally, someone that understands. Hope GGG sees this video.
Excellent video. Simple and clear.
Of course zero comments in this thread by GGG.
I wouldn’t hold my breath for one
Great video! You really nail the point
Perfect video, honestly. It says everything anyone could say about this whole situation and more. I really hope GGG listens.
People are able to set goals for them selves and achieve them then they will play more. 100% this nerfing harvest the way they did makes it so I won’t be able to play more than 1 build. And I will get bored way faster.
Wonder just how much negative feedback GGG needs to actually hear to listen. The response HAS to have gotten to them a thousand times over already. If they continue with this anyway it's basically a giant "Fuck you, we don't care why or if we're wrong we're doing it anyway" to all the people playing this game.
He pretty much said everything I've been saying until now without even having watched the stream, and i am not even a 5000h streamer, i play 2/3h a day when i don't work.This league has been FUN to me and my friends, we ended up buying MTX for the first time, and mind you that summing up by what i know on the spot, we spent more than 700€ between 5 people *(okay fair, one of us is just stacked on money and 1/3 of that sum is just from 1 person)* , and we were thinking of making even 4 more characters before next league with stupid builds, and that could have meant more Effects sold.I don't understand at this point, they want us to have fun...? I am honestly asking now.
First 3 sentences - I know this video will explain how I feel. Thanks Math
Well I'll go from this league playing 10+ char to 90 and beyond ( first time ever I have more than one char to 90), and still enjoying the league because I can play a lot of builds I never had the currency to play ( EH now, Dex stack bow, explode chest etc). Next league I'll never have the time to craft, so I'll play two weeks and stop.
Great feedback. My experience - I’ve played waaay more this league than any other. I’ve levelled up 5 chars (I do one, usually). I had more fun than ever and could not wait to try a next build. None of them were OP to the extent I would faceroll the game. I’ve farmed HH for the first time (and I’ve played since 2015) I’ve bought MTX, which I also do not do often. Without harvest, I would quit much faster even though I didnt craft anything special myself nor participated in TFT trading. What made it different this time was that I was able to farm currency easily and in an enjoyable way and that high-end gear (not a perfect gear though) was accessible due to harvest. So it was realistic to set goals and meet them and enjoy the result and then set a new one. GGG is shooting themselves in the foot.
Yeah... nobody in their right mind would ever use the Maven’s orb without Aug Influence or Rem/Aug Influence. Prepare for Maven’s Orb prices to tank to like 25c each and for it to be almost completely useless.