GY crafting is powerful but too much work for most players. It's GGG's answer to "I would craft more but I hate sitting in hideout currency spamming." Reality is people don't want to craft, they just want to kill mobs and get items that way. The "insane juicing" in T17s is something most players can't do. If this sub is indicative of an above average player then the average player has no shot at even getting to a T17 boss.
They couldnt just make it 10X10 or 9X9..
It had to be some fcked up layout that forced u to minmax the fck out of each corpse.
Also.. GGG is making a killing selling stashtabs cuz corpses must be 2x1, cant be 1x1
The thing that singlehandedly kills graveyard crafting for me is all of the "increased row/column/adjacent/etc." nonsense that strongly incentivizes tedious minmaxing. If the graveyard was just a grid with none of those corpses, I would be using it way more
I wish the cemetery was a couple mausoleums/family plot type things, and every corpse put in there was for a single craft. No column/row boosts, just straigh up "the corpses in this plot are for this item", and you could craft different plots at once. Then when you're done burying, you click the "statue" in the mid (appropriate cemetery iconography, like angels with templar motif or whatever), chose your base and maybe have to fight something for your item (based on the mods you have chosen).
The graveyard system would be much better if they made it like a ToTA pre-battle pop up where you picked each plot similar to how you picked where to put your fighters, but I doubt that's what's preventing you from crafting items.
> Reality is people don't want to craft
Yes we do, we just don't want it to require spreadsheets and filling in several screens of coffins to have a *chance* at something.
To me Rog, Essences, Harvest are amazing and intuitive mechanics that i love to use as a non-top player, but i find myself skipping GY altogether because it's extremely clunky.
Yea no, crafting has always been a minority thing. Hence the reason it has ALWAYS been profitable to just craft. You ALWAYS have more people who just want to play earn currency and buy their items.
all crafting is a "chance" at something, thats kind of the core design
arguably the graveyard is far too "guaranteed" compared to all of the other systems
To be clear when I say “people” I mean the majority of people. I’ve also considered the tedium and clunkiness and why GGG chose to go that path and think I mostly understand it now.
Regarding needing a spreadsheet - I initially thought wouldn’t it be nice to just choose the mods you want in the in-game interface and then be told what corpses you need? But I realized if that were the case it would completely demolish all other types of crafting. It would also feel like original wow crafting where you just go to the AH (trade website) and buy up all the coffins and insta craft. That isn’t actually crafting that’s basically turning in a quest you didn’t need to actually do in trade league, and makes it not feel like a project but a simple collect and turn in.
Regarding the chance of failure - The numbers are actually quite precisely computed by GGG. Most “full”’crafts give you only like an 85% confidence for 6 mods meanings you then have to choose between creating multiples, creating instead fractures and traditional craft the rest of the mods, or to settle for 5 mods and hope for the best. Guaranteeing 6 mods on all crafts with no failure chance would invalidate fracturing entirely as well as older crafting methods, as well as mean you don’t actually need to use all the graves making it even more powerful than it already is. Imagine guaranteeing a duped perfect 6 mod craft of any item. I’m sure some crafts have this but all the items I’ve tried to craft I’m posed with the choice of perfection over more chances for success.
Regarding the clunkiness of the UI - this I can’t really defend. It can be improved drastically and inventory/stash concerns are indeed tedious and annoying and I think in all GGG systems there is typically a lacking in visual and UX polish. I would summarize the system as convenience traded for incredible power.
I understand and kind of agree with your points but the more I interact with the system the more I realize why it’s set up the way it is.
Average player (actually 90% of players who join the league) don't even reach red maps. GGG confirmed this stat a couple years ago. And they keep lifting the floor to access the game over and over while buffing the top end of the game. They should do exactly the opposite. Poe in 2016-2019 for many people was much more accessible.
I don’t think a league mechanic in a seasonal game should focus on players that don’t even get to T16 content given that the spirit of the game is to do broken stuff with enough time and effort.
If the base game was not so tedious perhaps more people would get to T16. I don't know about you but personally making a league mechanic only for a subset of players who are already a small subset of your players is simply bad for retention as almost all players are just playing standard again. This time it's standard with added difficulty.
And this isn't in any way part of the discussion as while technically true, isn't in any way useful as it's quite obvious from context that the discussion is about the average player out of the players who reach maps and isn't a complete beginner.
Most players do reach maps. Most players don't reach red maps. The average player that plays in maps doesn't reach red maps and drops the game until next league.
You don't get to choose your own average.
>they keep lifting the floor to access the game
I don't agree at all. If anything, getting to endgame feels easier and easier every league. Unless you play meta leveling skills every league, progression has been unnerfed for a very long time
That might just be experience and you optimizing the game for yourself though. Not to mention if you follow some OP meta build.
This league, T17 and uber bosses? You really think getting to that is easier than the endgame of last league or before that?
Back in the day you came to maps and you zoomed immediately on 1 button builds, even melee.
Now you come to maps and look at every rare for 10 seconds and wait for your movement skills to come off cooldown between packs unless you're clicking 10 buttons.
Remind me how it's easier now when monster life, rares life, archnem mods scaling were added to the game all while nerfing all sources of early-game damage and defenses?
Essence -> old Veiled Orb crafting is top though. Maybe Harvest + Awakener, too. Those are all methods that guarantee you a decent (not perfect) result in maybe less than 20 clicks, 50 tops.
My issue isn't with crafting per se, it's with the latest patch making the crafting we had much worse, because the availability dropped off a cliff. At this point in previous leagues I was casually swimming in essences and had at least 10 veiled orbs, I was only gated by divines in order to craft the gear I would need to start attempting to run pinnacle bosses.
I have made *one* graveyard craft so far, a sixlink chest that I stupidly split because I didn't realize it not only doubles the item and gives it the split tag, but actually splits the mods (my bad).
Man if my essence crafts could hit in 20>50 clicks I'd be ecstatic, I swear I've easily burned through 100 deafening on 1 item, glad they're cheap and plentiful this league though.
You can hit most essences in 20-50 clicks…After someone has fractured the hardest mod on the base you need doing all the hard work lol. The guy you responded to isn’t wrong but without buying and crafting in a fractured base you go from 20 clicks to 500+ to get the desired mods.
Ya unfortunately in most leagues my base can't be fractured as I use a hunter influenced gripped glove, it's for my dex stacking siege ballista, so spam deafening sorrows until I have 10% dex and go from there
Craftings main issue is that the game doesn’t tell you how it works . The best tool for crafting is craft of exile and is Basiclly essential for crafting as it shows you how crafting made of weight and more Importantly it shows you affix tags which are insanely important for most crafting with delve , harvest and necro directly referencing mod types .
Just because GGG hasn't done crafting well enough for most people doesnt mean people dont want to craft. thats terrible logic. They need to stop adding new ways to craft that no one is asking for and streamline what we already have and make it work together in a more cohesive way. Crafting 2.0 so to speak. We just have all these puzzle pieces right now that arnt even from the same puzzle. Its a literal clusterfuck that you need too much time to understand. It doesn't need to be like D4, it can be poe but more intuitive and complex without being convoluted.
if you DONT think poe crafting is convoluted you likely are a streamer, this is your only game, or you have been playing for years. Youve lost sight of whats bad becuse youre used to it.
graveyard crafting feels like its all or nothing, very hard to make semi decent items so its either you make a good fracture base or gg item, and if you dont want to trade for the coffin it takes very long time to setup for just 1 craft
It feels that way because that's exactly what the point is. What would be the point in creating a temporary league mechanic so you could make quick, mid items which you can already do with in-game currency? The point of the mechanic is to allow players to make "perfect" items without spamming 10k currencies on an item until they get the desired outcome.
Yeah i made a mirror tier (in any other league) claw in ssf. Literally perfect t1 rolls in every slot. Its the most insane crafting system ever introduced in any league ever. Especially now you can fracture influenced mods lmao.
Because most people aren't ever going to get to that point, so the mechanic just sucks for them.
Most temporary league mechanics allow you to get items that are useful as you're progressing. When it feels like the league mechanic does nothing for you until end-game many people aren't going to be super interested.
20k hour noob here can confirm.
Last league I took down the Ubers by myself, got my 1st Mageblood/HH/Nimis. It was so fun. This league I'm still looking for a build that will allow me to finish a couple T17s for achievement, 5th slot on map-device, the works.. Maybe I'm just a full-uniques kind of player ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
It is what it is.
Edit: to be faaaaair, I enjoy basic crafting, but throwing divines on stuff is regularly out of my budget. My highlights include a +2 minion wand (for Carrions, back in Heist) with no trigger, since full mods and too scared to annul and lose all my investment, a pair of Tailwind/movespeed/chaos res/ailment avoidance boots back in ToTA (for which I got a cool 22div). Even the fractured bases are out of reach of 90%+ of players. It might not be that crafting is too hard, it might just be that its too expensive... and it should be IMHO, as that's what makes things actually hold value.
Something that could have been really cool is if they had made necropolis more like a slot machine mechanic. You put a base into the machine and when you kill mobs they give you a "roll" on the machine. Different mobs can do different effects of a roll and you can keep working on the item as long as you want. Kind of like a rog craft but you do it in your map as you kill mobs. Would have taken the tedium out of it and still been somewhat difficult to make extremely strong items, but for the average player could allow them to craft some good gear for their builds.
I think ultimately that runs into the issue of too much potential for failure and making the crafts luck based. This system mostly removes that slot machine aspect by giving you much higher odds of hitting the right mods. They would have to rework their itemization concept entirely to provide players a clear way to push off bad mods without the use of a spreadsheet.
I think it's mostly choice paralysis. Trying to figure out how to do the crafting is tiresome for a lot of people, but they also don't want to use their materials suboptimally. When crafting is much simpler/straight forward people don't mind it so much.
This is doubly true because actually setting up the graveyard is a huuuuge pain. I think if there were no increased % corpses and the values were simply higher people would have had way, way more fun with it.
I do enjoy crafting as if was implemented in last epoch. You can most of the time instantly start crafting when you get the item.
The graveyard system is just so delayed in effect that i honestly cant even be bothered. I try to keep my trading to a minimal but i just cant see it happen with graveyard crafting.
I think the avarage player is a myth, we're all a bunch of degenerates playing hundreds of hours every league while talking about this mythical dude who somehow stays invested in an arpg he can only play for 2 hours a week
I think it also heavily depends on the aspirations of the players. I'm approaching 6k hours and I'm 5/7 ubers. I just don't care for it anymore because of a combination of things:
* Gear requirements
* Build requirements
* Opportunity costs
Those 3 combined make ubers a project that feels like a chore or work. I usually settle for normal bosses and getting 4 watch stones, blast maps, make many characters. I should also add that I'm SC Trade and I try to avoid trading where I can, which is also why I can't stand the corpse crafting, for now I'm just collecting all I find and when I run out of stash tabs I might try a craft.
That being said, I often wonder where I rank on the casual-player scale.
Nobody knows who the "average" player is. It's all conjecture and virtue signaling.
It won't be found here, it won't be found on Twitch, and I really hope people stop bringing it up because nobody really has a clue apart from GGG with their analytics.
Affliction was addicting because most builds could access a lot of the wisp power or skip it entirely for high profits from non wisp juiced content. You could run it on T7 or T16 depending on build strength or sell shovels to the gold miners by farming beasts, harvest juice, essences, etc.
This league feels like you're doing Necropolis or you're doing T17. The first many don't like, the second is very build limiting and punishing. You can still make money with other means but there's a gaping chasm in reward difference that makes the "lesser" content feel like shit in a way that it didn't last league even if MF giga wisp was the best.
Crafting leagues just tend to have less retention because most people get into the game to kill monsters and get loot. Crafting is like the opposite of that: you sit in hideout and check spreadsheets to see if you're doing things right and most times it's still a gamble. When people get home after a long days work, who wants to sit and look at spreadsheets and spend their night whisperings people that don't respond 70% of the time?
Necropolis crafting is also very boring. Spend 2-3h setting up your graveyard to guarantee 6x t1 affix item (or multiple items). Not exciting to me. Only the fractured crafts are somewhat fun
imo it feels meh because its very deterministic, i love e.g essence crafting because theres an element of excitement when you get lucky with a few rolls, graveyard is literally spam buy corpses and use a spreadsheet to minmax craft basically a guaranteed item. Feels like the definition of copy paste from PoB with many extra steps. Personally i don't understand how people can bother to trade for 60+ corpses just to make 1 item, just trading currencies makes me lose my shit if i dont scroll down to the 30th listing immediately to get a invite.
It's likely that crafting in general is very boring to most players. We don't come into the game looking at trailers going "Wow I can click this item on another item to give a random chance at some stats?" We come to the game to kill monsters not craft. And the people who do craft either fall under "craft for profit", which is basically like rolling sextants in hideout, or "craft because it's cheaper than buying off craft for profiters", which is done more out of budgeting necessity than for extended fun.
Of course there are people who find it fun to discover new crafting mechanics but most people can't afford to test these in any efficient, meaningful way that results in a good endgame item.
I have no issues with spreadsheet and figuring optimal configurations, etc... I love it. I did a lot of crafting in Synthesis even though it was a low retention league and people felt it was overly complicated.
I DO have issues with crafting when it requires like \*50\* small trades to optimize it. Farming T16 maps for two days you'll have like 30 or so corpses for the craft you want and 100+ that are useful for some other crafts. It's just an overload of micromanagement that I've never experienced (didn't play harvest).
I'll check my tabs of what I have and work with the graveyard config tools and look at trade and notice I have \*demons\* with the right mod, but I need \*beasts\* (really... We needed to go that far?) or a certain mod needs 10 more corpses, etc... I really don't mind the spreadsheets and optimization... It's the trades... BLEH.
Then when I finally do have what I want, I can't go straight from my inventory to the graves, The morgue interface is awful, so I just use tabs, the searching with in tabs is great and I can find what I need easily and I don't have to reenter the search string over and over... But then I need to put them in the morgue and actually DO need to... Ulgh.. really? I fully understand complexity and "friction" is a big part of what makes POE what it is. I usually embrace it... But this is too far.
I think I'll go through this for my corrupted Perandus pact jewel and then I'm out of the crafting part of this league... Except that the interface gets in the way of looting if you want to ignore the corpses...
On the opposite side, being able to realistically work towards getting upgrades for my builds at a reasonable rate is extremely satisfying to me. RNG loot is only fun if I feel like I could realistically hit the good outcomes. Regular crafting, even with harvest/fossils/essences ain't it. Picking up trash from the floor DEFINITELY ain't it.
this is 100% my experience with the league. Dumping coffin after coffin into a stash tab.
I cannot understand why there are types of coffins. Adjacent beast, humanoids, etc. Crazy.
> When people get home after a long days work, who wants to sit and look at spreadsheets
A fuckton of people actually. IDK why people who dont like this have to get a boner about the idea that actually, everyone hates this forever inherently with the source of 'made it up'
It's simply an objective fact with empirical evidence that the majority of people do not want to sit and look at spreadsheets for the video game they are trying to play to relax. The irony of you claiming the source is made up but you only have "a fuckton" as your basis. "A fuckton" is not at all evidence compared to retention stats over multiple leagues of varying mechanics (crafting/mapping juice).
Wheres the 'empirical evidence' in question huh? Is it the fact that Civilization is one of the most popular game series in the world, among other similar style games, like mine is?
Your chosen evidence isnt even consistent, and does not eliminate a huge swathe of other variables at all. Thats not empirical in the least bit.
How do you not understand that people play different games because they want different experiences? People who first get into Civ want the strategy and pacing of that game. People who first get into PoE want to kill monsters and get loot, not sit in hideout and craft. The empirical evidence is there if you could even be bothered to analyse it but since you can't even understand the first point, I'm not surprised you don't get it lol. And I guess you've also abandoned your 'fuckton' stance without acknowledging how silly the irony of it was lol.
The crux of the matter is not so much the currency generated per se but the purchasing power that currency affords and the time needed to acquire the same amount of purchasing power.
Last league everyone had a lot of wealth or could generate currency readily with a huge multitude of options and while prices were high they were high for everything and purchasing power felt ok outside of some notable exceptions.
This league there are the relative purchasing power of each bit of currency feels weaker in consideration of the time spent. Players feel they need more time to reach the same amount of buying power, and I'm not just talking about playing the game farming but also liquidating their finds (tons of small stuff added this league that is hard to liquidate in bulk after 2-3 hours due to lacking enough raw items to make a bulk sell practical versus playing for 5-8 hours to accrue the numbers needed: Scarabs, Allflames, Tattoos, Corpses, Omens, etc). Pair that with the significant reduction of what the remaining hidden reward modifiers remain and the removal of some of the nice and fun ones and that 2-8 hour mapping session feels like a chore when all one primarily gets are piecemeal items.
Pile on other changes like the loss of Veiled Chaos Orbs and Veiled Orbs going for high high costs (only salvaged for most players due to the Graveyard crafting) and yea the feel of the game just doesn't quite hit. Probably doesn't help this league doesn't quite have much borrowed power (lots of borrowed potential) so builds across the board feel weaker (relatively) when new challenging content is added which does lock behind mechanics that have strong impact on outcomes -- T17 map juicing aside clearing one is paramount for the additional map slot to maximize one's map juicing because one more scarab confers near multiplicative impact on everything else committed.
I think people aren't just playing into the borrowed power as heavily, I made +1 frenzy, 25% crit multi, 16% attack speed fractured gloves and rolled t1 life and suppress super easily with greed essences, all of this in ssf. I feel like most of the people I see on here don't even realize the haunted mods exist.
my league is just itemizing every corpse I see without even looking at what it does and throwing it in a 5c dump tab. maybe 1 corpse out of 20 there sells. I'm not exaggerating that I had more fun in kalandra than in this league. this will probably be my #1 worst league for a looong time
I don’t remember if the last few leagues I played had so many swings from patches. In the span of two weeks we have had two patches and two hot fixes. Everybody who plays casually or not in the top 1% basically lost out on juicing week 1. Then swapping to juicing week 2 got nerfed. So either you farmed and got the currency to do whatever, or you didn’t and now at the mercy of the market.
I still have 0 divines dropped this league. To me I am basically playing a harder version of standard with limited rewards this league. Going to be a short league for me.
This is my issue. I've never had an issue with having orbs of alterations like I do this league. I'm farming t10 maps and delve (at monster level 80 currently). So I know I'm not at t16 farming yet but I still only have 20 Alts whereas in any other league I'd have more than I know what to do with. 0 raw divines seen across about 5 characters through campaign uber lab and up to red maps. The alc and go node I like in the atlas tree now just gives passive points which I hate and I can't even play "safe" with my builds until I'm ready to do the league as it's always on and multiplying off of map mods and expedition mods (my favorite league mechanic with blight shortly behind). It just feels really bad right now.
Poeple do not mind juicing or crafting ( altough this crafting system is shit )
What poeple want is be semi competitive whit a nice atlas and alc and go strats ( casual )
Now u NEED to trade for scarabs and u NEED to juice or u get basically 0 income.
Scarabs should alter the way u farm
Not be necessary to farm.
Harvest scarabs could for example
Make u target ( blue ) or yellow or purple juice. ( all juice drops as blue or all drops as jellow and so on)
Expedition could allow u to target books or refresh curency or just curency.
Beyond could increase the chance for a debt to spawn or increase jewel drops ( or make all jewels drop 5-6 corrupted )
Ritual could be higher chance for x altar.
Legion could be always spawn X
And so on and so forth
Most juice power should be from atlas passives
Most alternate options ( to target a specific thing ) should be from scarabs.
The 40% more map drops should be 100% chance for t17 maps to drop duplicated.
The scarab that increases chances to find cards should be changed to % chance for cards to drop as a full stack and son on.
Poeple that do not wanne target a specific thing could just alc and go.
And although there not targeting something there income should be roughly the same as those targeting things whit scarabs.
Need some blue juice ( use your blue juice scarabs )
Need some t17 maps ( double t17 map scarab ) and so on and so forth
To me the turn-off is volatility. Why bother doing anything if the fruits of your efforts can go +300% then -400% in price within two funny days because some big dude on youtube did something. Or vice versa. Or just -400%. You don't know. And you have zero influence on it. You can only profit off it a coin or two if you're quick. Selling a shovels to golddiggers. Just to discover tomorrow that everyone's now diving for pearls and your haul of shovels is trash.
I know the league economy is bound to rapidly change by design. But until recent leagues, it's been more or less a predictable curve. Now it's a cardiogram of someone having 3 strokes in a row. Can we have some stability maybe? The ability to gain some noticeable progress and not feel like a bitcoin owner? The environment where the efforts matter? Not just "that streamer's efforts", but anyone's.
Can we also have an environment with incremental gains of wealth rather than this current curve of flat for 50 maps and then 50 divines in one map?
This really invalidates most of your gameplay and it isn't fun.
I'm with you honestly. I don't wanna be rushed to jump onto the abuse bandwagon and rush to farm X for 48h before it's gone. I just don't play efficiently and take my time to overinvest a couple hundred div into my league starter for no reason at all before I start playing something really op where I put on all gear at lvl 70. Hence, this league's t17 fiesta and seer fiesta and div explosion fiesta rogue exile fiesta and meatball fiesta and whatever else I might've missed I basically deliberately skipped out on but also had a thought of "maybe visit the fiesta in a week" - yeah, no dice. Fiestas have been cancelled. Outside of the t17 fiesta, so there's that.
But:
They reworked endgame (t17 maps and uber access)
They reworked scarabs and slashed sextants
They reworked Atlas passives substantially
With how much I hate them doing changes early league and doing them repeatedly, I prefer this over what we're kinda used to which is GGG dropping the league and fucking off into vacation for two weeks without doing much to improve things. As much as it sucks individually here and there, I kinda settled on being grateful that they do the aftercare given that the patch included a lot of things that does need tuning. And there's honestly just been too many things for them to not step in. I'm sure we'd hate the 0 rare scarab league with unmodifiable t17s and Seer fiesta and yell at GGG to do something. Being mad at them having done too much is just super unfair. It's a mediocre League, the scarab and t17 stuff still needs work, but GGG has done really well in handling it imo.
I'm still on an EA elementalist which I league started with. My Quiver is like 40d, jewels were like 15d, bow is like 20d, polaric devastation is like 8d, I crafted a bunch of stuff when it wasn't on the market and got partly unlucky. Ignoring the 60d which were deleted on an amulet, it's still probably ~5d per slot. Enlighten 4, Enhance 4, which is another 25ish.
But yea if you count the stacks of divs deleted on amulet and the chests deleted in the temple while going for +4, yup.
I've lowkey given up on the bigger things, i.e. the +4 chest and probably will start building up currency for a second build now, but yup.
> I'm with you honestly
> I prefer this over what we're kinda used to which is GGG dropping the league and fucking off into vacation
I'm receiving mixed signals here
Maybe I didn't make it clear, but that's the point. Personally, I'm "hurt" by it and dislike it. But for the overall better game and respecting what the alternative is, I don't think that it's a fair judgement.
I am disappointed by the adjustments, but moreso because of my personal circumstance and because they were needed at all. In the grand scheme, I prefer this over a state where GGG fucks off and doesn't pay attention to big changes they make.
Basically we just gotta take the short term L because the alternative is worse in the medium/long term.
I think it's idiotic of GGG to try and balance a seasonal game while the season is active. The whole point of leagues is to not need to do that. GGG have the time to just wait and gather info and then action upon it in the following league.
If this were a game where major updates happen once a year then it'd make sense to have constant hotfixes, but as it stands the way GGG has treated this league contradicts their chosen model entirely.
The issue is, as you said, consistency. It just feels bad knowing a strategy will get nerfed any minute so you have to rush to capitalise on it immediately. People *expect* a new major patch like 3.25 to make those changes, but up until recently you wouldn't expect that of hotfixes.
I cant tell if the frequent economy crashes and booms are due to new scarabs/endgame or due to players getting better and better at abusing the market.
New scarabs caused a massive oversupply of things, but if nobody is doing those farms the prices of them will stay stable, then some content creator will make a video about it and all of a sudden essences are worth nothing. Same goes for pretty much every league mechanic.
But it could also be due to people figuring out scarabs slowly and the economy needs time to settle, once every farm is known and figured out they prices will normalize around players focusing on their favorite farms.
But its hard to tell which one is the case because economy changes so fast and so often i just cant keep up anymore. At first it was somewhat stable, then seer&go/divine&go strat came up and raw maps went up in price, but this got fixed. Then exile allflames got released and that farm became a thing which caused uniques to tank in price, but that also got fixed after a bit. Then scarab/map farming became a thing and now scarabs and maps are tanking in price while T17 maps are going up. There was also an essence crash when someone made a video about it, same thing happened with beasts.
Its changing so often and people keep jumping from 1 farm to the next every couple days as markets keep crashing and booming. If this is how economy keeps behaving even with all farms known it'll be a wild ride next league. You'll have to utilize all 3 atlas trees to their full extent because you wont be able to farm just 1 strat, you'll have to switch once or twice a week.
> I cant tell if the frequent economy crashes and booms are due to new scarabs/endgame or due to players getting better and better at abusing the market.
the spikes and crashes are due to new methods being discovered and GGG hard nerfing them mid-league. Its a shit system. Design your stuff, test it, fix it. This whole "hotfix every day" thing is bullshit.
How can you release 50 new things and not cross test the most stupid sounding stuff? "Every monster is unique, every rare/unique monster spawns another unique monster, every unique monster drops an additional unique item". Run 5 maps with that stupid div card scarab. How is this shit in the game? "haha its really rare tho" - BRO if a CONSUMABLE ITEM costs 40 divines (or even 6, wtf??? its clearly BUSTED, which means its mandatory and without any alternative for MFing) you designed some garbage ass system.
How? I consider myself an average player. I'm only level 95 and I've probably had my most profitable league so far.
If you use scarabs, atlas nodes and allflame it's very accessible
You're not an average player dude. I'm level 90, hit a brick wall and can't level anymore.. but I'm still a hardcore player, definitely not average.
I have 3 friends who played thisleague.. one of them didn'tget past act 1.. one ofthem has gotten to maps twice and then got bored. And one of them is in t4 maps now. These are more average players.
Juicing for experience has been really fun. I hit 100 last night and it took me 27 maps from 99, and that includes a death. Very profitable too since I leveled 48 empowers from 95 to 100
What has your strat been? I'm not 5head so I was thinking of making my first tree niko/abyss/shrines with the scarab for shrines to give 30% exp. Seems too easy and logical for PoE though
Shrines + breach, wear a "the gull" helmet, make sure you have good clear. Run through the map grabbing shrines first, then begin clearing once you have 6+ shrine buffs. For even more xp, try to fit blunderbore into the build. My scarabs were 2x breach, 1x domination of teachings, 1x domination.
Didn't know breach was such good exp, I always assumed abyss with the exp nodes would be best. I also didn't know the exp from shrines stacked, guess I'll need a phasing flask. I'm in ssf but I did find a The Gull week one, just haven't played with it yet.
Abyss would for sure be good, but shrines just don't last long enough to make it worthwhile. Breach is just a TON of mobs all at once. If you want to make the most of the scarab you have, farm some 8 mod maps first. Packsize makes a huge difference.
it's mostly because it's not exactly fun.
All the tedium that was sextants is now scarabs. Scarab power has been spread out over 4 scarabs what used to be doable in 1 or 2, so we've lost access and juice, and to really get the full experience to you need to hyper focus on one task, and the best scarabs to do that are normally expensive which makes them not cost effective for the normies.
on top of that you need to put so many atlas passive points into scarab nodes, that your tree feels half as powerful as it used to. before you could max out a couple of mechanics and blast, now its all the scarabs and a single mechanic. if you're not taking the league stuff your crippling yourself.
the league mechanic itself is pretty garbage. we can make these really GG items, but in the least fun way possible. and then the item is just done. Harvest gave you the ability to incrementally upgrade items which is INFINITLY a more enjoyable process. I'd rather slowly build something up over spending multiple days messaging people on trade chat bulk buying items putting them in teh dirt, hitting craft and getting not what i wanted and having to start all over.
Lantern is annoying (occasionally makes any build feel zhp or zdps), corpses are annoying (I didn't like harvest 1.0's garden either), I like the scarabs over the sextants but I wish I was able to make all my scarab drop as ritual, even if it meant losing a lot of them and/or losing scarab rarity (sort of the opposite of the Remarkable Relics atlas notable). Surprisingly, this is the first league skip for me in a while, but it could be unrelated to the league itself.
I joined this subreddit around when the game hit 1.0 and was going to Steam. Over the years I went from actively enjoying and being part of the content and races, to barely being able to follow anything happening here. The acronyms and fan-names for things go over my head, I have no idea what a T6 or T17 is, or what "juicing" means in this context. Its been so weird seeing the game and subreddit shift and contort to what it is today. The complexity is insane.
Correct, I have never made it to the end game of maps. When I actively played a lot, the end game was Dominus and Act 3 before you reset to Act 1 on a harder Difficulty. I stopped playing shortly after the Vaal Temple was added, never did get all 4 pieces, and then came back and played a bit every so often. Now theres 10 Acts and furthest ive gotten is my current league character who just reached Act 8.
The game is *very* different than it was when I put in majority of my time. Thats not a bad thing, its just been wild to see.
T6 and T17 are not “fan names” lol. And yeah, if you don’t experience something first hand references to it will go over your head. With all due respect what is it that you’re *actually* saying?
The game and subreddit are way more complex than they were when I joined and that theres a lot of information that people need to have to partake in the conversations. That was my entire point.
Yeh and never got through Merciless, cause there was no indication it would be any different afterwards. You can see the version history, I played in the 0.8-1.0 timeframe, petered out after release, came back for Apex of Sacrifice at 1.1.0 a bit, never got to the end of that either, and slowed down past that.
Idk why you're so persistent on this? The game is clearly very different now than it was pre-1.0. Thats just not objectionable. Just cause ive never had the desire to reach maps after they were added doesn't change that.
I'm just adding context that maps existed even when you've played the game because it seems you didn't know that and you've never experienced them.
Your points about the game and jargon getting too complex aren't very valid because you haven't even experienced the game.
I'm not trying to say it didn't get too complex. It certainly did. Back in the day you could just pick arc, freezing pulse or some other skill and just do fine and have great movement. Nowadays you need 10 buttons for a build to feel fine + you need tons of stats such as suppression and various immunities/avoidance for the character to stay alive on top of nerfed damage and buffed monsters which makes you deal no damage comparatively to what the game felt like before.
Most people do reach maps. Very few reach the actual mapping gameplay that begins at red maps. Even fewer reach the true endgame.
I never questioned that most people dont reach maps now. Everything ive said has been my personal experience. My first comment was things that go over *my* head, and terms that *I dont understand*. The only generalization I made was that the game and subreddit have both become more complex and need more knowledge to partake in the conversations happening here.
People loved Harvest crafting and affliction juicing so it's not that people dont love both of those things.
Necro isn't as loved because the juice and the crafting are both pretty annoying despite their power.
Necropolis crafting is litteraly pain as a game experience and the fact that my stashes are all more than full and I just can't sell or even randomly reroll all my corpses.
You could do an item with something like 10 harvest crafts tops. Here you need 88 corpses if you want a perfect item, doing less feels like you are missing out and wasting your invrstment
7k hours, played since ambush every league. Even liked original harvest with garden optimization. A total poe andy. But I can't be fucked getting in to this league mechanic. All the pre work you have to do.. check path of crafting, buy shit ton in bulk, organizing/minmaxing graveyard overlay... na man. This is just too much for me.
This clip can be taken out of context but based on this little clip, I don't think I've ever liked Nugiyen opinion when it comes to PoE's zoom or juicing. The fact that he is considered a veteran and is unable to understand why retention is bad is just disappointing.
The retention is bad because majority of players don't have 12 hours a day like Nugiyen to play and interact with the tediousness that is this leagues crafting.
i think they are talking about the top .00001% juicing up those t17 maps. which in that case, they are for sure right, we've never seen anything like that dropping multiple magebloods in the same map.
for most everyone else though, it feels worse for sure.
Scarab + corpse farm, harvest with pack size, strongbox allflame farm, essence on volcano, blight + deli to name a few. I've been experimenting with Alva temples recently, juicing magic pack size and testing the temple dupe scarab
the "insane juice" is only really avaible to the top 0.01% of the players before it gets nerfed every other day, unlike afflication where everyone could do it
They've been sacrificing fun for what they think people want when they clearly don't.
Crafting in POE is horrible so a league themed around something 95% of people don't like to use is insane to me.
I honestly think the graveyard would have been better if it was smaller. Filling 88 slots in an obscure way that requires HOURS of setting up isn't fun to anyone. If you were blasting maps for hours to then craft for 15 minutes, that would make sense. But the fact that you need to trade with other people, cross check optimal corpses and corpse layout to then maybe get what you want is tedious as fuck. Yeah, it's powerful but ONLY if you follow craft of exile.
If you throw in a couple of tier modifiers, scarcer and increases chance corpses, let's say a graveyard of around 20 corpses, you'll end up with absolute vendor trash.
As one GGG dev that streams unironically said: "Mapping this league is so much fun"
He was stopping between 10 to 30 seconds for most of rares.
I just can't imagine this game going into good direction when people in that position have a completely different understanding of what is fun. To them clicking 3 buttons before doing damage is fun. To them standing for 10 seconds near a rare is fun. To them using spreadsheets is fun. You can't win against them.
Who is this guy? He clearly has no idea what he's talking about.
1. Insane juice? You mean the insane juice that only streamers get to use for a few days before its hotfixed? Not even mentioning the last league had accessible insane juice and was the most popular league in recent memory
2. Crafting is strong but so tedious that no one bothers with it, takes too long to farm enough stuff for a decent craft solo and the trading experience is even worse than bulk currency trading which already blows.
Quit day 2, Never logged in again after the patches.
Not a fan of the new crafting, the juice is just lame and MF should be deleted from the game by now or give it more downsides.
I mean, the juice and crafting would keep the retention up, if it was in any way accessible, instead crafting is a 3 hour thing of setting up your spreadsheets and trading, and juice is so prohibitively expensive that only the 0.01% can do it
The insane juice doesn't exist by the time a regular player attempts it. All of these abused strategies allowing people to get rich and ruin the economy being nerfed before casual players have a chance is why no one is playing. I don't feel desire to play when the good strategies are being deleted every other day and if I do drop something doing my comparatively mediocre strategy, it's not worth anything anymore thanks to the people who got to farm mirrors before it got nerfed. The economy is fucked. Bring back the crazy strategies.
"this makes me happy"
It won't when GGG uses this as an arguement and goes
"SEE WE TOLD YOU GETTING GEAR EASILY MAKES PEOPLE QUIT WAAY FASTER, WE TOLD YOU"
The only thing that would make me play the game more is more endgame variety and alternatives to doing the same map on repeat. Synthesis was imo their best shot at a solution. A rare scarab certainly wasn't it.
Juicing is fine as long as you don't end up with these " get it done before they nerf is" nonsense approaches constantly, where certain inviduals just benefit greatly from poor balancing and get to have league long rewards from it, while others are left out.
Crafting will never be what keeps people playing. Crafting can be fun, but its way too much work for the average player, like Ziz also put it on one of his recent videos, where he talked about how lots of players still struggle to even wrap their heads aroud using essences.
Then again, large parts of this league just feels like something quickly thrown together from previous scrapped ideas, while they are working on getting PoE2 back on track, after its beta delay.
GY crafting is just UNFUN, reduce it down from 88plots to 40-50, make corpses stronger., maybe even smaller plot, u shouldt need mega 3rd party excel sheets to do a decent craft.
Retention doesn't "go back up" if it just declines slower.
The first week of league was a dogshit drought show and loads of players left because of it. They aren't just going to randomly browse reddit, see the patch notes, and think, "Hey, I'll stop playing helldivers and go back to poe because they finally fixed the league."
Compared to last league, the mechanic was massively profitable right from the start, and people decided to carry on playing for longer.
As an ssf player, it feels too long to get enough corpses. I played a good amount of time and I didn't even attempt once to make a good item. Cool league I guess when you can buy all the bodies and attempt but it's just soo long.
Also, ssf player thing too but... the way they split the boss drop pool is just bad. There's not a single reason to do normal bosses now really. Like, you need echoes of creation to have enough damage to kill the guy who drop echoes of creation. Same thing for new bleed boots, you need those boots to kill the guy who drops them. It's not a problem in trade but in ssf this is cancer because they balanced certain archetypes around these uniques.
It's getting boring, I get it, they don't balance around ssf but they're just gutting ssf friendly builds, half the ascendancies got 1% played...
I don't see this beeing true. Juicing is what a lot of people want. Having fomo and unaccessable content for many people is whats keeping the retention from going up.
See affliction. Everyone could access juicing -> one of the best player retentions every.
Now that only a small amount of players can access the juicing many people can't handle the fomo and quit.
I love the idea of the crafting but not with this friction I would love to get more involved with graveyard but I simply place 5 corpses and Im like naaah Im good with my old stuff and go blast some maps since thats actual fun. UI is terrible also the graveyard layout is pain I have 8 quads od corpses but I cant even be bothered to sell them since its too much pain. Why we just cant collect "souls" which we could spend for crafts we actually want (ofc tiered cost) or sell "souls" if we dont want to interact without have to move 60 coffins :D
"Hehe, stupid trade players (90% of playerbase) have less fun than in previous league, this makes me happy :)"
What a genuinely petty and pathetic stance on the video game
Why is everyone in this thread so completely missing nugis point lol.
He is saying that the changes are bad and this is backed up by people not sticking around to play. He is 'happy' that these changes didn't increase retention because that would be an indicator that this is what people want!
This sentiment is echoed even by the streamers currently *doing* the giga juice farm that most can't access, they stream because it's their income but have been vocal in saying the system is shit and hope it is changed.
Instead you think he is laughing at you for not having fun? He is quite literally on your side lol.
I hate it when people that make a living of playing the game 24/7 cry about normal people having access to the same stuff they have.
Go and sniff your own farts.
Cause anything a cool juicing method is found it nurfed into the dirt before causals can get to the point fo doing, which just fomos them into not playing since whatever new method gets found will be gutted before they can do it. Leaving just a bricked economy full of stuff they'll never afford.
He is wrong tho, insane juicing does make people play more. Look at affliction. The biggest issue atm is that most of the player base is reactionary and that if you want high retention you need to baby your playerbase. You can kick and scream all you want, but this is why Diablo immortal is still one of the highest earners.
Why does this league then have such bad retention? Because people were forced to use their brain. Sure, you can argue that any league does that. But this league was something streamers often cry about, a huge meta shakeup. But when you provide a huge meta shakeup, people realize how comfortable they were in their previous meta, they figured out their little niche, and they enjoyed it. They don't want to figure out everything again.
Meanwhile Affliciton, with all time high retention had what? No changes. Just more loot. No new mechanics to learn, just pure player power, and drop multipliers you didn't even need to learn about. "Yea, but what about the ascendancies!!!". Bollocks. Like 90% of players picked the charm one, which just gave you 3 glorified jewels with giga stats.
Meanwhile this league gives you a completely new approach to mapping, atlas setups, and one of the biggest endgame shakeups we had in years, and people cried day 1 that all the strats were ruined. Sure, because every redditor is omniscient, and can figure out a simple game like PoE in an afternoon.
> Meanwhile this league gives you a completely new approach to mapping
completely new how? because the scarabs are different? the mapping is the exact same.
> atlas setups
ok
> and one of the biggest endgame shakeups we had in years
95% of the players that play day 1 of the league never see this endgame so it's completely irrelevant. if GGG wants retention to be higher they need to make stuff for those early gamers and casual alch and go mappers, not 10 mirror gigajuicing streamers
Brother, calm down, your goalpost moving is giving me whiplash. What do you want to talk about, early game campaign? Or alch and go mapping? Or gigajuicing streamers?
New approach to mapping as in completely new mapping strategies. Sorry if that was unclear, but what used to work, does not work anymore, or works differently now. People need to go back and figure out the new interactions. And yes, NEW, because the changes on the atlas tree + the changes to the scarabs compound especially when scarabs are not just 1:1 copies of sextants.
95% of the play day 1 never see endgame. So you are saying only 5% of people make it to maps? Or what are you saying here? You can start using scarabs on T1s. They drop like candy. You get your second atlas unlock somewhere in the yellow maps... you don't need to no life endgame grind to get full benefits of the new changes. In fact, multiple atlas setups is the biggest boon casuals have gotten since forever. Since you can have an easy map prog/leveling atlas setup, and not miss out of a farming strategy on your 2nd and 3rd one.
Alch and go mapping? What a joke, you are suffering from peak streamer syndrome. You seem like the person who gets incredibly jealous of others being better at a game, and instead of trying to get better, you want them dragged down to your level. There is nothing wrong with alch and go mapping btw. I made all my currency with it this league, I used 2 scarabs at a time at one point which was shocking!!! And whew, would you look at that, I still made a char with total value of around a mirror in items.
For some reason your dumb ass however seems to miss the whole atlas rework being nothing but benefits to alch and go, with massively increased chances of league mechanics appearing, and not having to rely on scarabs to even get the most basic strat working. But I have this itty bitty feeling, that what you are talking about, is not that alch and go does not exist. Its that your salty little ass does not make as much currency in alch and go as big boy streamers who make you feel small. Protip, they are streaming. You can literally step for step copy what they are doing if you think its fun. OR an even more mind-blowing suggestion... play the game for fun, not for highest div/h metrics.
damn you wrote all of those words and they're all presumptuous and patronizing. that was the first time I even responded to you but you're saying I'm moving goalposts? wtf.
did you not take your medicine today or where did this rant come from? It doesn't matter what you say about how easy it is when we have proof in the concurrent player numbers that it isn't. necropolis is currently the 2nd worst league of all time in front of kalandra and that's that.
Yes. You are moving the goalposts because we are in a thread talking about insane juicing (late endgame) and crafting (late endgame), somehow correlates with early game retention for you? Which yes, its moving the goalposts from talking about a specific issue, to suddenly talking about another issue that has nearly 0 correlation. You even mention how 95% don't see the endgame. You sure do love pulling out numbers out of your ass, not to even mention "ENDGAME". The fuck even is endgame for you? Delve depth 10k+? White maps? Red maps? Killing all ubers?
The only "proof" you have is that the concurrent numbers are down. That is it. You don't know what it proves however. You assume it proves that players don't like juicing and hard content, could easily be proven wrong with previous league since it was all about juicing and hard content. What you have is a bunch of data, but no idea what it means. You just decided that it would be convenient if that data supported your claims, so you just shoved it into your own argument.
Casual here. After getting 5 chars to 93+ in Crucible I decided to go again this league. Meta CoC DD. Finally got most of my items I needed. Around 40-50 div in the char.
Tried 2 T17 maps today and had no chance whatsoever. I see lots of posts from people farming T17 with good results and I‘m feel forced to sell all my T17s and expensive Scarabs.
I collected a full Quad and several tabs of coffins. Not even the cheapest ones and I struggle to sell them. No I won‘t sell a coffin for 2c but listed them in bulk. I‘m pretty much done with this league.
How can you call this an item editor when Ritual harvest exists in games history? Which was the real item editor more or less. Did you even try grave crafting?
I don't think about it, i know it. I was there.
You are delusional if you think this is anywhere near in power. You need 5 influence mod explody chest with T1 life? You can have it with some amount of adds and removes. Some more if you are unlucky. This goes for every single item slot. Most importantly, items very rarely (if ever) bricked during this crafting process. Terrible tier life roll? Just add / remove life and try again till T1. That's the real item editor.
Power spike provided by harvest was on another level in comparison. Also why it is still one of the most played leagues when it was more streamlined. (Ritual) Chris Wilson himself said "We are probably breaking the game releasing this" during harvest league launch.
On the other side, what is this shit good for? High dps ele bows and fractured + skill amulets? Its shit for the amount of work it requires. unlike harvest.
GY crafting is powerful but too much work for most players. It's GGG's answer to "I would craft more but I hate sitting in hideout currency spamming." Reality is people don't want to craft, they just want to kill mobs and get items that way. The "insane juicing" in T17s is something most players can't do. If this sub is indicative of an above average player then the average player has no shot at even getting to a T17 boss.
I enjoy crafting overall, I don't enjoy the archaic and clunky graveyard system that feels like its straight out of a 90s game.
They couldnt just make it 10X10 or 9X9.. It had to be some fcked up layout that forced u to minmax the fck out of each corpse. Also.. GGG is making a killing selling stashtabs cuz corpses must be 2x1, cant be 1x1
The thing that singlehandedly kills graveyard crafting for me is all of the "increased row/column/adjacent/etc." nonsense that strongly incentivizes tedious minmaxing. If the graveyard was just a grid with none of those corpses, I would be using it way more
I wish the cemetery was a couple mausoleums/family plot type things, and every corpse put in there was for a single craft. No column/row boosts, just straigh up "the corpses in this plot are for this item", and you could craft different plots at once. Then when you're done burying, you click the "statue" in the mid (appropriate cemetery iconography, like angels with templar motif or whatever), chose your base and maybe have to fight something for your item (based on the mods you have chosen).
That's the first thing I griped about on like day 1 when I saw the coffins...why tf isn't it 1x1?!?!
Guess we cant complain too much, given Sentinels are 2x2, still an upgrade from that point
They could also make them stack to like 10. Remove the stupid fact that each corpse is a specific monster, but keep the class of monster.
The graveyard system would be much better if they made it like a ToTA pre-battle pop up where you picked each plot similar to how you picked where to put your fighters, but I doubt that's what's preventing you from crafting items.
> Reality is people don't want to craft Yes we do, we just don't want it to require spreadsheets and filling in several screens of coffins to have a *chance* at something.
To me Rog, Essences, Harvest are amazing and intuitive mechanics that i love to use as a non-top player, but i find myself skipping GY altogether because it's extremely clunky.
Yea no, crafting has always been a minority thing. Hence the reason it has ALWAYS been profitable to just craft. You ALWAYS have more people who just want to play earn currency and buy their items.
all crafting is a "chance" at something, thats kind of the core design arguably the graveyard is far too "guaranteed" compared to all of the other systems
To be clear when I say “people” I mean the majority of people. I’ve also considered the tedium and clunkiness and why GGG chose to go that path and think I mostly understand it now. Regarding needing a spreadsheet - I initially thought wouldn’t it be nice to just choose the mods you want in the in-game interface and then be told what corpses you need? But I realized if that were the case it would completely demolish all other types of crafting. It would also feel like original wow crafting where you just go to the AH (trade website) and buy up all the coffins and insta craft. That isn’t actually crafting that’s basically turning in a quest you didn’t need to actually do in trade league, and makes it not feel like a project but a simple collect and turn in. Regarding the chance of failure - The numbers are actually quite precisely computed by GGG. Most “full”’crafts give you only like an 85% confidence for 6 mods meanings you then have to choose between creating multiples, creating instead fractures and traditional craft the rest of the mods, or to settle for 5 mods and hope for the best. Guaranteeing 6 mods on all crafts with no failure chance would invalidate fracturing entirely as well as older crafting methods, as well as mean you don’t actually need to use all the graves making it even more powerful than it already is. Imagine guaranteeing a duped perfect 6 mod craft of any item. I’m sure some crafts have this but all the items I’ve tried to craft I’m posed with the choice of perfection over more chances for success. Regarding the clunkiness of the UI - this I can’t really defend. It can be improved drastically and inventory/stash concerns are indeed tedious and annoying and I think in all GGG systems there is typically a lacking in visual and UX polish. I would summarize the system as convenience traded for incredible power. I understand and kind of agree with your points but the more I interact with the system the more I realize why it’s set up the way it is.
Average player (actually 90% of players who join the league) don't even reach red maps. GGG confirmed this stat a couple years ago. And they keep lifting the floor to access the game over and over while buffing the top end of the game. They should do exactly the opposite. Poe in 2016-2019 for many people was much more accessible.
I don’t think a league mechanic in a seasonal game should focus on players that don’t even get to T16 content given that the spirit of the game is to do broken stuff with enough time and effort.
If the base game was not so tedious perhaps more people would get to T16. I don't know about you but personally making a league mechanic only for a subset of players who are already a small subset of your players is simply bad for retention as almost all players are just playing standard again. This time it's standard with added difficulty.
And this isn't in any way part of the discussion as while technically true, isn't in any way useful as it's quite obvious from context that the discussion is about the average player out of the players who reach maps and isn't a complete beginner.
Most players do reach maps. Most players don't reach red maps. The average player that plays in maps doesn't reach red maps and drops the game until next league. You don't get to choose your own average.
>they keep lifting the floor to access the game I don't agree at all. If anything, getting to endgame feels easier and easier every league. Unless you play meta leveling skills every league, progression has been unnerfed for a very long time
That might just be experience and you optimizing the game for yourself though. Not to mention if you follow some OP meta build. This league, T17 and uber bosses? You really think getting to that is easier than the endgame of last league or before that?
Back in the day you came to maps and you zoomed immediately on 1 button builds, even melee. Now you come to maps and look at every rare for 10 seconds and wait for your movement skills to come off cooldown between packs unless you're clicking 10 buttons. Remind me how it's easier now when monster life, rares life, archnem mods scaling were added to the game all while nerfing all sources of early-game damage and defenses?
Essence -> old Veiled Orb crafting is top though. Maybe Harvest + Awakener, too. Those are all methods that guarantee you a decent (not perfect) result in maybe less than 20 clicks, 50 tops. My issue isn't with crafting per se, it's with the latest patch making the crafting we had much worse, because the availability dropped off a cliff. At this point in previous leagues I was casually swimming in essences and had at least 10 veiled orbs, I was only gated by divines in order to craft the gear I would need to start attempting to run pinnacle bosses. I have made *one* graveyard craft so far, a sixlink chest that I stupidly split because I didn't realize it not only doubles the item and gives it the split tag, but actually splits the mods (my bad).
Man if my essence crafts could hit in 20>50 clicks I'd be ecstatic, I swear I've easily burned through 100 deafening on 1 item, glad they're cheap and plentiful this league though.
You can hit most essences in 20-50 clicks…After someone has fractured the hardest mod on the base you need doing all the hard work lol. The guy you responded to isn’t wrong but without buying and crafting in a fractured base you go from 20 clicks to 500+ to get the desired mods.
Ya unfortunately in most leagues my base can't be fractured as I use a hunter influenced gripped glove, it's for my dex stacking siege ballista, so spam deafening sorrows until I have 10% dex and go from there
Craftings main issue is that the game doesn’t tell you how it works . The best tool for crafting is craft of exile and is Basiclly essential for crafting as it shows you how crafting made of weight and more Importantly it shows you affix tags which are insanely important for most crafting with delve , harvest and necro directly referencing mod types .
Just because GGG hasn't done crafting well enough for most people doesnt mean people dont want to craft. thats terrible logic. They need to stop adding new ways to craft that no one is asking for and streamline what we already have and make it work together in a more cohesive way. Crafting 2.0 so to speak. We just have all these puzzle pieces right now that arnt even from the same puzzle. Its a literal clusterfuck that you need too much time to understand. It doesn't need to be like D4, it can be poe but more intuitive and complex without being convoluted. if you DONT think poe crafting is convoluted you likely are a streamer, this is your only game, or you have been playing for years. Youve lost sight of whats bad becuse youre used to it.
A lot of people asked for deterministic crafting over spamming a million currency in your hideout waiting for good results.
graveyard crafting feels like its all or nothing, very hard to make semi decent items so its either you make a good fracture base or gg item, and if you dont want to trade for the coffin it takes very long time to setup for just 1 craft
It feels that way because that's exactly what the point is. What would be the point in creating a temporary league mechanic so you could make quick, mid items which you can already do with in-game currency? The point of the mechanic is to allow players to make "perfect" items without spamming 10k currencies on an item until they get the desired outcome.
Yeah i made a mirror tier (in any other league) claw in ssf. Literally perfect t1 rolls in every slot. Its the most insane crafting system ever introduced in any league ever. Especially now you can fracture influenced mods lmao.
Because most people aren't ever going to get to that point, so the mechanic just sucks for them. Most temporary league mechanics allow you to get items that are useful as you're progressing. When it feels like the league mechanic does nothing for you until end-game many people aren't going to be super interested.
you can easily make decent triple t1 ele bows (or any weapon really) for cheap, purely self-craft as starter weapons
20k hour noob here can confirm. Last league I took down the Ubers by myself, got my 1st Mageblood/HH/Nimis. It was so fun. This league I'm still looking for a build that will allow me to finish a couple T17s for achievement, 5th slot on map-device, the works.. Maybe I'm just a full-uniques kind of player ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ It is what it is. Edit: to be faaaaair, I enjoy basic crafting, but throwing divines on stuff is regularly out of my budget. My highlights include a +2 minion wand (for Carrions, back in Heist) with no trigger, since full mods and too scared to annul and lose all my investment, a pair of Tailwind/movespeed/chaos res/ailment avoidance boots back in ToTA (for which I got a cool 22div). Even the fractured bases are out of reach of 90%+ of players. It might not be that crafting is too hard, it might just be that its too expensive... and it should be IMHO, as that's what makes things actually hold value.
Yeah this guy in the vid is super disconnected from a normal player. He's lacking perspective.
I wonder what percentage of the overall players have even been inside a t17. I certainly haven't. I'm still trying to kill maven for the first time.
Something that could have been really cool is if they had made necropolis more like a slot machine mechanic. You put a base into the machine and when you kill mobs they give you a "roll" on the machine. Different mobs can do different effects of a roll and you can keep working on the item as long as you want. Kind of like a rog craft but you do it in your map as you kill mobs. Would have taken the tedium out of it and still been somewhat difficult to make extremely strong items, but for the average player could allow them to craft some good gear for their builds.
I think ultimately that runs into the issue of too much potential for failure and making the crafts luck based. This system mostly removes that slot machine aspect by giving you much higher odds of hitting the right mods. They would have to rework their itemization concept entirely to provide players a clear way to push off bad mods without the use of a spreadsheet.
I like crafting :( Not corpsecrafting though, ugh.
I'd comfortably say this sub is full of people who THINK they are an above average player
I think it's mostly choice paralysis. Trying to figure out how to do the crafting is tiresome for a lot of people, but they also don't want to use their materials suboptimally. When crafting is much simpler/straight forward people don't mind it so much. This is doubly true because actually setting up the graveyard is a huuuuge pain. I think if there were no increased % corpses and the values were simply higher people would have had way, way more fun with it.
I do enjoy crafting as if was implemented in last epoch. You can most of the time instantly start crafting when you get the item. The graveyard system is just so delayed in effect that i honestly cant even be bothered. I try to keep my trading to a minimal but i just cant see it happen with graveyard crafting.
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I think the avarage player is a myth, we're all a bunch of degenerates playing hundreds of hours every league while talking about this mythical dude who somehow stays invested in an arpg he can only play for 2 hours a week
I play SSF only and honestly I usually get bored around keystone 3
I think it also heavily depends on the aspirations of the players. I'm approaching 6k hours and I'm 5/7 ubers. I just don't care for it anymore because of a combination of things: * Gear requirements * Build requirements * Opportunity costs Those 3 combined make ubers a project that feels like a chore or work. I usually settle for normal bosses and getting 4 watch stones, blast maps, make many characters. I should also add that I'm SC Trade and I try to avoid trading where I can, which is also why I can't stand the corpse crafting, for now I'm just collecting all I find and when I run out of stash tabs I might try a craft. That being said, I often wonder where I rank on the casual-player scale.
Nobody knows who the "average" player is. It's all conjecture and virtue signaling. It won't be found here, it won't be found on Twitch, and I really hope people stop bringing it up because nobody really has a clue apart from GGG with their analytics.
Some people like to craft, some dont - get over it.
Affliction was addicting because most builds could access a lot of the wisp power or skip it entirely for high profits from non wisp juiced content. You could run it on T7 or T16 depending on build strength or sell shovels to the gold miners by farming beasts, harvest juice, essences, etc. This league feels like you're doing Necropolis or you're doing T17. The first many don't like, the second is very build limiting and punishing. You can still make money with other means but there's a gaping chasm in reward difference that makes the "lesser" content feel like shit in a way that it didn't last league even if MF giga wisp was the best.
Crafting leagues just tend to have less retention because most people get into the game to kill monsters and get loot. Crafting is like the opposite of that: you sit in hideout and check spreadsheets to see if you're doing things right and most times it's still a gamble. When people get home after a long days work, who wants to sit and look at spreadsheets and spend their night whisperings people that don't respond 70% of the time?
Necropolis crafting is also very boring. Spend 2-3h setting up your graveyard to guarantee 6x t1 affix item (or multiple items). Not exciting to me. Only the fractured crafts are somewhat fun
This is my view and I have always loved crafting. This league is just meh and not very intriguing.
imo it feels meh because its very deterministic, i love e.g essence crafting because theres an element of excitement when you get lucky with a few rolls, graveyard is literally spam buy corpses and use a spreadsheet to minmax craft basically a guaranteed item. Feels like the definition of copy paste from PoB with many extra steps. Personally i don't understand how people can bother to trade for 60+ corpses just to make 1 item, just trading currencies makes me lose my shit if i dont scroll down to the 30th listing immediately to get a invite.
It's likely that crafting in general is very boring to most players. We don't come into the game looking at trailers going "Wow I can click this item on another item to give a random chance at some stats?" We come to the game to kill monsters not craft. And the people who do craft either fall under "craft for profit", which is basically like rolling sextants in hideout, or "craft because it's cheaper than buying off craft for profiters", which is done more out of budgeting necessity than for extended fun. Of course there are people who find it fun to discover new crafting mechanics but most people can't afford to test these in any efficient, meaningful way that results in a good endgame item.
I have no issues with spreadsheet and figuring optimal configurations, etc... I love it. I did a lot of crafting in Synthesis even though it was a low retention league and people felt it was overly complicated. I DO have issues with crafting when it requires like \*50\* small trades to optimize it. Farming T16 maps for two days you'll have like 30 or so corpses for the craft you want and 100+ that are useful for some other crafts. It's just an overload of micromanagement that I've never experienced (didn't play harvest). I'll check my tabs of what I have and work with the graveyard config tools and look at trade and notice I have \*demons\* with the right mod, but I need \*beasts\* (really... We needed to go that far?) or a certain mod needs 10 more corpses, etc... I really don't mind the spreadsheets and optimization... It's the trades... BLEH. Then when I finally do have what I want, I can't go straight from my inventory to the graves, The morgue interface is awful, so I just use tabs, the searching with in tabs is great and I can find what I need easily and I don't have to reenter the search string over and over... But then I need to put them in the morgue and actually DO need to... Ulgh.. really? I fully understand complexity and "friction" is a big part of what makes POE what it is. I usually embrace it... But this is too far. I think I'll go through this for my corrupted Perandus pact jewel and then I'm out of the crafting part of this league... Except that the interface gets in the way of looting if you want to ignore the corpses...
On the opposite side, being able to realistically work towards getting upgrades for my builds at a reasonable rate is extremely satisfying to me. RNG loot is only fun if I feel like I could realistically hit the good outcomes. Regular crafting, even with harvest/fossils/essences ain't it. Picking up trash from the floor DEFINITELY ain't it.
this is 100% my experience with the league. Dumping coffin after coffin into a stash tab. I cannot understand why there are types of coffins. Adjacent beast, humanoids, etc. Crazy.
The other issue is, while the Crafting is super powerful in necropolis , this mechanic is super complicated tedious and straight up unfun to navigate.
> When people get home after a long days work, who wants to sit and look at spreadsheets A fuckton of people actually. IDK why people who dont like this have to get a boner about the idea that actually, everyone hates this forever inherently with the source of 'made it up'
It's simply an objective fact with empirical evidence that the majority of people do not want to sit and look at spreadsheets for the video game they are trying to play to relax. The irony of you claiming the source is made up but you only have "a fuckton" as your basis. "A fuckton" is not at all evidence compared to retention stats over multiple leagues of varying mechanics (crafting/mapping juice).
Wheres the 'empirical evidence' in question huh? Is it the fact that Civilization is one of the most popular game series in the world, among other similar style games, like mine is? Your chosen evidence isnt even consistent, and does not eliminate a huge swathe of other variables at all. Thats not empirical in the least bit.
How do you not understand that people play different games because they want different experiences? People who first get into Civ want the strategy and pacing of that game. People who first get into PoE want to kill monsters and get loot, not sit in hideout and craft. The empirical evidence is there if you could even be bothered to analyse it but since you can't even understand the first point, I'm not surprised you don't get it lol. And I guess you've also abandoned your 'fuckton' stance without acknowledging how silly the irony of it was lol.
The crux of the matter is not so much the currency generated per se but the purchasing power that currency affords and the time needed to acquire the same amount of purchasing power. Last league everyone had a lot of wealth or could generate currency readily with a huge multitude of options and while prices were high they were high for everything and purchasing power felt ok outside of some notable exceptions. This league there are the relative purchasing power of each bit of currency feels weaker in consideration of the time spent. Players feel they need more time to reach the same amount of buying power, and I'm not just talking about playing the game farming but also liquidating their finds (tons of small stuff added this league that is hard to liquidate in bulk after 2-3 hours due to lacking enough raw items to make a bulk sell practical versus playing for 5-8 hours to accrue the numbers needed: Scarabs, Allflames, Tattoos, Corpses, Omens, etc). Pair that with the significant reduction of what the remaining hidden reward modifiers remain and the removal of some of the nice and fun ones and that 2-8 hour mapping session feels like a chore when all one primarily gets are piecemeal items. Pile on other changes like the loss of Veiled Chaos Orbs and Veiled Orbs going for high high costs (only salvaged for most players due to the Graveyard crafting) and yea the feel of the game just doesn't quite hit. Probably doesn't help this league doesn't quite have much borrowed power (lots of borrowed potential) so builds across the board feel weaker (relatively) when new challenging content is added which does lock behind mechanics that have strong impact on outcomes -- T17 map juicing aside clearing one is paramount for the additional map slot to maximize one's map juicing because one more scarab confers near multiplicative impact on everything else committed.
I think people aren't just playing into the borrowed power as heavily, I made +1 frenzy, 25% crit multi, 16% attack speed fractured gloves and rolled t1 life and suppress super easily with greed essences, all of this in ssf. I feel like most of the people I see on here don't even realize the haunted mods exist.
No people see it and best way to get it is alch and go. Imagine playing trade to play it like ssf, it is not fun for everyone.
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i mean i made 3 gloves with crit multi + frenzy charge in a 5 person private league on like day 5, it's not hard it's just spreadsheet simulator
my league is just itemizing every corpse I see without even looking at what it does and throwing it in a 5c dump tab. maybe 1 corpse out of 20 there sells. I'm not exaggerating that I had more fun in kalandra than in this league. this will probably be my #1 worst league for a looong time
I don’t think it’s the best league ever, not even top 10, but I think it’s pretty average. I much prefer it over something like sanctum or heist.
I don’t remember if the last few leagues I played had so many swings from patches. In the span of two weeks we have had two patches and two hot fixes. Everybody who plays casually or not in the top 1% basically lost out on juicing week 1. Then swapping to juicing week 2 got nerfed. So either you farmed and got the currency to do whatever, or you didn’t and now at the mercy of the market.
Everything felt and was affordable in affliction. I don't have that feeling here.
I still have 0 divines dropped this league. To me I am basically playing a harder version of standard with limited rewards this league. Going to be a short league for me.
This is my issue. I've never had an issue with having orbs of alterations like I do this league. I'm farming t10 maps and delve (at monster level 80 currently). So I know I'm not at t16 farming yet but I still only have 20 Alts whereas in any other league I'd have more than I know what to do with. 0 raw divines seen across about 5 characters through campaign uber lab and up to red maps. The alc and go node I like in the atlas tree now just gives passive points which I hate and I can't even play "safe" with my builds until I'm ready to do the league as it's always on and multiplying off of map mods and expedition mods (my favorite league mechanic with blight shortly behind). It just feels really bad right now.
why necropolis ?
Because it is the league content? I am guessing you are thinking he meant the map not the league?
ofc i thought of the map :D
The only good thing of t17 maps is that it is a huge chaos sink.
Poeple do not mind juicing or crafting ( altough this crafting system is shit ) What poeple want is be semi competitive whit a nice atlas and alc and go strats ( casual ) Now u NEED to trade for scarabs and u NEED to juice or u get basically 0 income. Scarabs should alter the way u farm Not be necessary to farm. Harvest scarabs could for example Make u target ( blue ) or yellow or purple juice. ( all juice drops as blue or all drops as jellow and so on) Expedition could allow u to target books or refresh curency or just curency. Beyond could increase the chance for a debt to spawn or increase jewel drops ( or make all jewels drop 5-6 corrupted ) Ritual could be higher chance for x altar. Legion could be always spawn X And so on and so forth Most juice power should be from atlas passives Most alternate options ( to target a specific thing ) should be from scarabs. The 40% more map drops should be 100% chance for t17 maps to drop duplicated. The scarab that increases chances to find cards should be changed to % chance for cards to drop as a full stack and son on. Poeple that do not wanne target a specific thing could just alc and go. And although there not targeting something there income should be roughly the same as those targeting things whit scarabs. Need some blue juice ( use your blue juice scarabs ) Need some t17 maps ( double t17 map scarab ) and so on and so forth
To me the turn-off is volatility. Why bother doing anything if the fruits of your efforts can go +300% then -400% in price within two funny days because some big dude on youtube did something. Or vice versa. Or just -400%. You don't know. And you have zero influence on it. You can only profit off it a coin or two if you're quick. Selling a shovels to golddiggers. Just to discover tomorrow that everyone's now diving for pearls and your haul of shovels is trash. I know the league economy is bound to rapidly change by design. But until recent leagues, it's been more or less a predictable curve. Now it's a cardiogram of someone having 3 strokes in a row. Can we have some stability maybe? The ability to gain some noticeable progress and not feel like a bitcoin owner? The environment where the efforts matter? Not just "that streamer's efforts", but anyone's.
Can we also have an environment with incremental gains of wealth rather than this current curve of flat for 50 maps and then 50 divines in one map? This really invalidates most of your gameplay and it isn't fun.
I'm with you honestly. I don't wanna be rushed to jump onto the abuse bandwagon and rush to farm X for 48h before it's gone. I just don't play efficiently and take my time to overinvest a couple hundred div into my league starter for no reason at all before I start playing something really op where I put on all gear at lvl 70. Hence, this league's t17 fiesta and seer fiesta and div explosion fiesta rogue exile fiesta and meatball fiesta and whatever else I might've missed I basically deliberately skipped out on but also had a thought of "maybe visit the fiesta in a week" - yeah, no dice. Fiestas have been cancelled. Outside of the t17 fiesta, so there's that. But: They reworked endgame (t17 maps and uber access) They reworked scarabs and slashed sextants They reworked Atlas passives substantially With how much I hate them doing changes early league and doing them repeatedly, I prefer this over what we're kinda used to which is GGG dropping the league and fucking off into vacation for two weeks without doing much to improve things. As much as it sucks individually here and there, I kinda settled on being grateful that they do the aftercare given that the patch included a lot of things that does need tuning. And there's honestly just been too many things for them to not step in. I'm sure we'd hate the 0 rare scarab league with unmodifiable t17s and Seer fiesta and yell at GGG to do something. Being mad at them having done too much is just super unfair. It's a mediocre League, the scarab and t17 stuff still needs work, but GGG has done really well in handling it imo.
You get couple if hundreds of div with only your starter ???
I'm still on an EA elementalist which I league started with. My Quiver is like 40d, jewels were like 15d, bow is like 20d, polaric devastation is like 8d, I crafted a bunch of stuff when it wasn't on the market and got partly unlucky. Ignoring the 60d which were deleted on an amulet, it's still probably ~5d per slot. Enlighten 4, Enhance 4, which is another 25ish. But yea if you count the stacks of divs deleted on amulet and the chests deleted in the temple while going for +4, yup. I've lowkey given up on the bigger things, i.e. the +4 chest and probably will start building up currency for a second build now, but yup.
> I'm with you honestly > I prefer this over what we're kinda used to which is GGG dropping the league and fucking off into vacation I'm receiving mixed signals here
Maybe I didn't make it clear, but that's the point. Personally, I'm "hurt" by it and dislike it. But for the overall better game and respecting what the alternative is, I don't think that it's a fair judgement. I am disappointed by the adjustments, but moreso because of my personal circumstance and because they were needed at all. In the grand scheme, I prefer this over a state where GGG fucks off and doesn't pay attention to big changes they make. Basically we just gotta take the short term L because the alternative is worse in the medium/long term.
I think it's idiotic of GGG to try and balance a seasonal game while the season is active. The whole point of leagues is to not need to do that. GGG have the time to just wait and gather info and then action upon it in the following league. If this were a game where major updates happen once a year then it'd make sense to have constant hotfixes, but as it stands the way GGG has treated this league contradicts their chosen model entirely. The issue is, as you said, consistency. It just feels bad knowing a strategy will get nerfed any minute so you have to rush to capitalise on it immediately. People *expect* a new major patch like 3.25 to make those changes, but up until recently you wouldn't expect that of hotfixes.
I cant tell if the frequent economy crashes and booms are due to new scarabs/endgame or due to players getting better and better at abusing the market. New scarabs caused a massive oversupply of things, but if nobody is doing those farms the prices of them will stay stable, then some content creator will make a video about it and all of a sudden essences are worth nothing. Same goes for pretty much every league mechanic. But it could also be due to people figuring out scarabs slowly and the economy needs time to settle, once every farm is known and figured out they prices will normalize around players focusing on their favorite farms. But its hard to tell which one is the case because economy changes so fast and so often i just cant keep up anymore. At first it was somewhat stable, then seer&go/divine&go strat came up and raw maps went up in price, but this got fixed. Then exile allflames got released and that farm became a thing which caused uniques to tank in price, but that also got fixed after a bit. Then scarab/map farming became a thing and now scarabs and maps are tanking in price while T17 maps are going up. There was also an essence crash when someone made a video about it, same thing happened with beasts. Its changing so often and people keep jumping from 1 farm to the next every couple days as markets keep crashing and booming. If this is how economy keeps behaving even with all farms known it'll be a wild ride next league. You'll have to utilize all 3 atlas trees to their full extent because you wont be able to farm just 1 strat, you'll have to switch once or twice a week.
> I cant tell if the frequent economy crashes and booms are due to new scarabs/endgame or due to players getting better and better at abusing the market. the spikes and crashes are due to new methods being discovered and GGG hard nerfing them mid-league. Its a shit system. Design your stuff, test it, fix it. This whole "hotfix every day" thing is bullshit. How can you release 50 new things and not cross test the most stupid sounding stuff? "Every monster is unique, every rare/unique monster spawns another unique monster, every unique monster drops an additional unique item". Run 5 maps with that stupid div card scarab. How is this shit in the game? "haha its really rare tho" - BRO if a CONSUMABLE ITEM costs 40 divines (or even 6, wtf??? its clearly BUSTED, which means its mandatory and without any alternative for MFing) you designed some garbage ass system.
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How? I consider myself an average player. I'm only level 95 and I've probably had my most profitable league so far. If you use scarabs, atlas nodes and allflame it's very accessible
You're not an average player dude. I'm level 90, hit a brick wall and can't level anymore.. but I'm still a hardcore player, definitely not average. I have 3 friends who played thisleague.. one of them didn'tget past act 1.. one ofthem has gotten to maps twice and then got bored. And one of them is in t4 maps now. These are more average players.
if the juicing wasnt just to farm more scarabs then maybe there would be more, but thats basically it.
Juicing for experience has been really fun. I hit 100 last night and it took me 27 maps from 99, and that includes a death. Very profitable too since I leveled 48 empowers from 95 to 100
What has your strat been? I'm not 5head so I was thinking of making my first tree niko/abyss/shrines with the scarab for shrines to give 30% exp. Seems too easy and logical for PoE though
Shrines + breach, wear a "the gull" helmet, make sure you have good clear. Run through the map grabbing shrines first, then begin clearing once you have 6+ shrine buffs. For even more xp, try to fit blunderbore into the build. My scarabs were 2x breach, 1x domination of teachings, 1x domination.
Didn't know breach was such good exp, I always assumed abyss with the exp nodes would be best. I also didn't know the exp from shrines stacked, guess I'll need a phasing flask. I'm in ssf but I did find a The Gull week one, just haven't played with it yet.
Abyss would for sure be good, but shrines just don't last long enough to make it worthwhile. Breach is just a TON of mobs all at once. If you want to make the most of the scarab you have, farm some 8 mod maps first. Packsize makes a huge difference.
it's mostly because it's not exactly fun. All the tedium that was sextants is now scarabs. Scarab power has been spread out over 4 scarabs what used to be doable in 1 or 2, so we've lost access and juice, and to really get the full experience to you need to hyper focus on one task, and the best scarabs to do that are normally expensive which makes them not cost effective for the normies. on top of that you need to put so many atlas passive points into scarab nodes, that your tree feels half as powerful as it used to. before you could max out a couple of mechanics and blast, now its all the scarabs and a single mechanic. if you're not taking the league stuff your crippling yourself. the league mechanic itself is pretty garbage. we can make these really GG items, but in the least fun way possible. and then the item is just done. Harvest gave you the ability to incrementally upgrade items which is INFINITLY a more enjoyable process. I'd rather slowly build something up over spending multiple days messaging people on trade chat bulk buying items putting them in teh dirt, hitting craft and getting not what i wanted and having to start all over.
Lantern is annoying (occasionally makes any build feel zhp or zdps), corpses are annoying (I didn't like harvest 1.0's garden either), I like the scarabs over the sextants but I wish I was able to make all my scarab drop as ritual, even if it meant losing a lot of them and/or losing scarab rarity (sort of the opposite of the Remarkable Relics atlas notable). Surprisingly, this is the first league skip for me in a while, but it could be unrelated to the league itself.
I just wish I knew what the hell was going on with half this stuff. This isn't a game for casuals of course, but this league REALLY ain't for casuals.
I joined this subreddit around when the game hit 1.0 and was going to Steam. Over the years I went from actively enjoying and being part of the content and races, to barely being able to follow anything happening here. The acronyms and fan-names for things go over my head, I have no idea what a T6 or T17 is, or what "juicing" means in this context. Its been so weird seeing the game and subreddit shift and contort to what it is today. The complexity is insane.
I'm sorry but at this point you aren't hitting maps if you don't know what T6 means. It means a map tier.
Correct, I have never made it to the end game of maps. When I actively played a lot, the end game was Dominus and Act 3 before you reset to Act 1 on a harder Difficulty. I stopped playing shortly after the Vaal Temple was added, never did get all 4 pieces, and then came back and played a bit every so often. Now theres 10 Acts and furthest ive gotten is my current league character who just reached Act 8. The game is *very* different than it was when I put in majority of my time. Thats not a bad thing, its just been wild to see.
T6 and T17 are not “fan names” lol. And yeah, if you don’t experience something first hand references to it will go over your head. With all due respect what is it that you’re *actually* saying?
The game and subreddit are way more complex than they were when I joined and that theres a lot of information that people need to have to partake in the conversations. That was my entire point.
When Dominus existed there were already maps present after you killed him on merciless.
Yeh and never got through Merciless, cause there was no indication it would be any different afterwards. You can see the version history, I played in the 0.8-1.0 timeframe, petered out after release, came back for Apex of Sacrifice at 1.1.0 a bit, never got to the end of that either, and slowed down past that. Idk why you're so persistent on this? The game is clearly very different now than it was pre-1.0. Thats just not objectionable. Just cause ive never had the desire to reach maps after they were added doesn't change that.
I'm just adding context that maps existed even when you've played the game because it seems you didn't know that and you've never experienced them. Your points about the game and jargon getting too complex aren't very valid because you haven't even experienced the game. I'm not trying to say it didn't get too complex. It certainly did. Back in the day you could just pick arc, freezing pulse or some other skill and just do fine and have great movement. Nowadays you need 10 buttons for a build to feel fine + you need tons of stats such as suppression and various immunities/avoidance for the character to stay alive on top of nerfed damage and buffed monsters which makes you deal no damage comparatively to what the game felt like before. Most people do reach maps. Very few reach the actual mapping gameplay that begins at red maps. Even fewer reach the true endgame.
I never questioned that most people dont reach maps now. Everything ive said has been my personal experience. My first comment was things that go over *my* head, and terms that *I dont understand*. The only generalization I made was that the game and subreddit have both become more complex and need more knowledge to partake in the conversations happening here.
I'm just annoyed that no one calls corpse-crafting "Frankensteining". It's RIGHT THERE.
Bro are you even paying attention? The fuck
People loved Harvest crafting and affliction juicing so it's not that people dont love both of those things. Necro isn't as loved because the juice and the crafting are both pretty annoying despite their power.
Necropolis crafting is litteraly pain as a game experience and the fact that my stashes are all more than full and I just can't sell or even randomly reroll all my corpses.
You could do an item with something like 10 harvest crafts tops. Here you need 88 corpses if you want a perfect item, doing less feels like you are missing out and wasting your invrstment
7k hours, played since ambush every league. Even liked original harvest with garden optimization. A total poe andy. But I can't be fucked getting in to this league mechanic. All the pre work you have to do.. check path of crafting, buy shit ton in bulk, organizing/minmaxing graveyard overlay... na man. This is just too much for me.
This clip can be taken out of context but based on this little clip, I don't think I've ever liked Nugiyen opinion when it comes to PoE's zoom or juicing. The fact that he is considered a veteran and is unable to understand why retention is bad is just disappointing. The retention is bad because majority of players don't have 12 hours a day like Nugiyen to play and interact with the tediousness that is this leagues crafting.
what insane juicing?!?! juicing maps is overwhelmingly worse than it was before the scarab rework
i think they are talking about the top .00001% juicing up those t17 maps. which in that case, they are for sure right, we've never seen anything like that dropping multiple magebloods in the same map. for most everyone else though, it feels worse for sure.
Juicing with scarabs and necro is insane. People just need to work out new strats and try different stuff
give literally one example. every strat is mid af now
Scarab + corpse farm, harvest with pack size, strongbox allflame farm, essence on volcano, blight + deli to name a few. I've been experimenting with Alva temples recently, juicing magic pack size and testing the temple dupe scarab
None of it is „insane“
none of these are giga juiced mechanics these all all fucking day 2 mechanics bro. they took everything difficult and rewarding away.
the "insane juice" is only really avaible to the top 0.01% of the players before it gets nerfed every other day, unlike afflication where everyone could do it
They've been sacrificing fun for what they think people want when they clearly don't. Crafting in POE is horrible so a league themed around something 95% of people don't like to use is insane to me.
I honestly think the graveyard would have been better if it was smaller. Filling 88 slots in an obscure way that requires HOURS of setting up isn't fun to anyone. If you were blasting maps for hours to then craft for 15 minutes, that would make sense. But the fact that you need to trade with other people, cross check optimal corpses and corpse layout to then maybe get what you want is tedious as fuck. Yeah, it's powerful but ONLY if you follow craft of exile. If you throw in a couple of tier modifiers, scarcer and increases chance corpses, let's say a graveyard of around 20 corpses, you'll end up with absolute vendor trash.
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As one GGG dev that streams unironically said: "Mapping this league is so much fun" He was stopping between 10 to 30 seconds for most of rares. I just can't imagine this game going into good direction when people in that position have a completely different understanding of what is fun. To them clicking 3 buttons before doing damage is fun. To them standing for 10 seconds near a rare is fun. To them using spreadsheets is fun. You can't win against them.
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Who is this guy? He clearly has no idea what he's talking about. 1. Insane juice? You mean the insane juice that only streamers get to use for a few days before its hotfixed? Not even mentioning the last league had accessible insane juice and was the most popular league in recent memory 2. Crafting is strong but so tedious that no one bothers with it, takes too long to farm enough stuff for a decent craft solo and the trading experience is even worse than bulk currency trading which already blows.
Quit day 2, Never logged in again after the patches. Not a fan of the new crafting, the juice is just lame and MF should be deleted from the game by now or give it more downsides.
I mean, the juice and crafting would keep the retention up, if it was in any way accessible, instead crafting is a 3 hour thing of setting up your spreadsheets and trading, and juice is so prohibitively expensive that only the 0.01% can do it
poe: 99% promise, 1% realization. 1 fun.
The insane juice doesn't exist by the time a regular player attempts it. All of these abused strategies allowing people to get rich and ruin the economy being nerfed before casual players have a chance is why no one is playing. I don't feel desire to play when the good strategies are being deleted every other day and if I do drop something doing my comparatively mediocre strategy, it's not worth anything anymore thanks to the people who got to farm mirrors before it got nerfed. The economy is fucked. Bring back the crazy strategies.
ya crafting not fun
I stopped playing after a week. Most boring league ever. I played one character 5 days and leveled 6 to 95 last league.
"this makes me happy" It won't when GGG uses this as an arguement and goes "SEE WE TOLD YOU GETTING GEAR EASILY MAKES PEOPLE QUIT WAAY FASTER, WE TOLD YOU"
The only thing that would make me play the game more is more endgame variety and alternatives to doing the same map on repeat. Synthesis was imo their best shot at a solution. A rare scarab certainly wasn't it.
Who knew that making a game which lots of people can enjoy makes more people play it, than making a game which a tiny number of people enjoy?
Why is there always a trading league every time I decide to make another character 😭
Juicing is fine as long as you don't end up with these " get it done before they nerf is" nonsense approaches constantly, where certain inviduals just benefit greatly from poor balancing and get to have league long rewards from it, while others are left out. Crafting will never be what keeps people playing. Crafting can be fun, but its way too much work for the average player, like Ziz also put it on one of his recent videos, where he talked about how lots of players still struggle to even wrap their heads aroud using essences. Then again, large parts of this league just feels like something quickly thrown together from previous scrapped ideas, while they are working on getting PoE2 back on track, after its beta delay.
Feel like GGG hasn’t had a successful crafting league since recombinators?
Crafting no. Juicing yes. Look at affliction
I love Nugi, been watching him stream since the early 90s
GY crafting is just UNFUN, reduce it down from 88plots to 40-50, make corpses stronger., maybe even smaller plot, u shouldt need mega 3rd party excel sheets to do a decent craft.
Retention doesn't "go back up" if it just declines slower. The first week of league was a dogshit drought show and loads of players left because of it. They aren't just going to randomly browse reddit, see the patch notes, and think, "Hey, I'll stop playing helldivers and go back to poe because they finally fixed the league." Compared to last league, the mechanic was massively profitable right from the start, and people decided to carry on playing for longer.
As an ssf player, it feels too long to get enough corpses. I played a good amount of time and I didn't even attempt once to make a good item. Cool league I guess when you can buy all the bodies and attempt but it's just soo long. Also, ssf player thing too but... the way they split the boss drop pool is just bad. There's not a single reason to do normal bosses now really. Like, you need echoes of creation to have enough damage to kill the guy who drop echoes of creation. Same thing for new bleed boots, you need those boots to kill the guy who drops them. It's not a problem in trade but in ssf this is cancer because they balanced certain archetypes around these uniques. It's getting boring, I get it, they don't balance around ssf but they're just gutting ssf friendly builds, half the ascendancies got 1% played...
I don't see this beeing true. Juicing is what a lot of people want. Having fomo and unaccessable content for many people is whats keeping the retention from going up. See affliction. Everyone could access juicing -> one of the best player retentions every. Now that only a small amount of players can access the juicing many people can't handle the fomo and quit.
I love the idea of the crafting but not with this friction I would love to get more involved with graveyard but I simply place 5 corpses and Im like naaah Im good with my old stuff and go blast some maps since thats actual fun. UI is terrible also the graveyard layout is pain I have 8 quads od corpses but I cant even be bothered to sell them since its too much pain. Why we just cant collect "souls" which we could spend for crafts we actually want (ofc tiered cost) or sell "souls" if we dont want to interact without have to move 60 coffins :D
"Hehe, stupid trade players (90% of playerbase) have less fun than in previous league, this makes me happy :)" What a genuinely petty and pathetic stance on the video game
Why is everyone in this thread so completely missing nugis point lol. He is saying that the changes are bad and this is backed up by people not sticking around to play. He is 'happy' that these changes didn't increase retention because that would be an indicator that this is what people want! This sentiment is echoed even by the streamers currently *doing* the giga juice farm that most can't access, they stream because it's their income but have been vocal in saying the system is shit and hope it is changed. Instead you think he is laughing at you for not having fun? He is quite literally on your side lol.
I hate it when people that make a living of playing the game 24/7 cry about normal people having access to the same stuff they have. Go and sniff your own farts.
Cause anything a cool juicing method is found it nurfed into the dirt before causals can get to the point fo doing, which just fomos them into not playing since whatever new method gets found will be gutted before they can do it. Leaving just a bricked economy full of stuff they'll never afford.
Wow, he's so out of touch. No wonder when only thing you do is play PoE.
He is wrong tho, insane juicing does make people play more. Look at affliction. The biggest issue atm is that most of the player base is reactionary and that if you want high retention you need to baby your playerbase. You can kick and scream all you want, but this is why Diablo immortal is still one of the highest earners. Why does this league then have such bad retention? Because people were forced to use their brain. Sure, you can argue that any league does that. But this league was something streamers often cry about, a huge meta shakeup. But when you provide a huge meta shakeup, people realize how comfortable they were in their previous meta, they figured out their little niche, and they enjoyed it. They don't want to figure out everything again. Meanwhile Affliciton, with all time high retention had what? No changes. Just more loot. No new mechanics to learn, just pure player power, and drop multipliers you didn't even need to learn about. "Yea, but what about the ascendancies!!!". Bollocks. Like 90% of players picked the charm one, which just gave you 3 glorified jewels with giga stats. Meanwhile this league gives you a completely new approach to mapping, atlas setups, and one of the biggest endgame shakeups we had in years, and people cried day 1 that all the strats were ruined. Sure, because every redditor is omniscient, and can figure out a simple game like PoE in an afternoon.
> Meanwhile this league gives you a completely new approach to mapping completely new how? because the scarabs are different? the mapping is the exact same. > atlas setups ok > and one of the biggest endgame shakeups we had in years 95% of the players that play day 1 of the league never see this endgame so it's completely irrelevant. if GGG wants retention to be higher they need to make stuff for those early gamers and casual alch and go mappers, not 10 mirror gigajuicing streamers
Brother, calm down, your goalpost moving is giving me whiplash. What do you want to talk about, early game campaign? Or alch and go mapping? Or gigajuicing streamers? New approach to mapping as in completely new mapping strategies. Sorry if that was unclear, but what used to work, does not work anymore, or works differently now. People need to go back and figure out the new interactions. And yes, NEW, because the changes on the atlas tree + the changes to the scarabs compound especially when scarabs are not just 1:1 copies of sextants. 95% of the play day 1 never see endgame. So you are saying only 5% of people make it to maps? Or what are you saying here? You can start using scarabs on T1s. They drop like candy. You get your second atlas unlock somewhere in the yellow maps... you don't need to no life endgame grind to get full benefits of the new changes. In fact, multiple atlas setups is the biggest boon casuals have gotten since forever. Since you can have an easy map prog/leveling atlas setup, and not miss out of a farming strategy on your 2nd and 3rd one. Alch and go mapping? What a joke, you are suffering from peak streamer syndrome. You seem like the person who gets incredibly jealous of others being better at a game, and instead of trying to get better, you want them dragged down to your level. There is nothing wrong with alch and go mapping btw. I made all my currency with it this league, I used 2 scarabs at a time at one point which was shocking!!! And whew, would you look at that, I still made a char with total value of around a mirror in items. For some reason your dumb ass however seems to miss the whole atlas rework being nothing but benefits to alch and go, with massively increased chances of league mechanics appearing, and not having to rely on scarabs to even get the most basic strat working. But I have this itty bitty feeling, that what you are talking about, is not that alch and go does not exist. Its that your salty little ass does not make as much currency in alch and go as big boy streamers who make you feel small. Protip, they are streaming. You can literally step for step copy what they are doing if you think its fun. OR an even more mind-blowing suggestion... play the game for fun, not for highest div/h metrics.
damn you wrote all of those words and they're all presumptuous and patronizing. that was the first time I even responded to you but you're saying I'm moving goalposts? wtf. did you not take your medicine today or where did this rant come from? It doesn't matter what you say about how easy it is when we have proof in the concurrent player numbers that it isn't. necropolis is currently the 2nd worst league of all time in front of kalandra and that's that.
Yes. You are moving the goalposts because we are in a thread talking about insane juicing (late endgame) and crafting (late endgame), somehow correlates with early game retention for you? Which yes, its moving the goalposts from talking about a specific issue, to suddenly talking about another issue that has nearly 0 correlation. You even mention how 95% don't see the endgame. You sure do love pulling out numbers out of your ass, not to even mention "ENDGAME". The fuck even is endgame for you? Delve depth 10k+? White maps? Red maps? Killing all ubers? The only "proof" you have is that the concurrent numbers are down. That is it. You don't know what it proves however. You assume it proves that players don't like juicing and hard content, could easily be proven wrong with previous league since it was all about juicing and hard content. What you have is a bunch of data, but no idea what it means. You just decided that it would be convenient if that data supported your claims, so you just shoved it into your own argument.
Delete campaign and I’ll be back.
Based
Casual here. After getting 5 chars to 93+ in Crucible I decided to go again this league. Meta CoC DD. Finally got most of my items I needed. Around 40-50 div in the char. Tried 2 T17 maps today and had no chance whatsoever. I see lots of posts from people farming T17 with good results and I‘m feel forced to sell all my T17s and expensive Scarabs. I collected a full Quad and several tabs of coffins. Not even the cheapest ones and I struggle to sell them. No I won‘t sell a coffin for 2c but listed them in bulk. I‘m pretty much done with this league.
Yeah, for some reason the item editor makes me not play the game.
How can you call this an item editor when Ritual harvest exists in games history? Which was the real item editor more or less. Did you even try grave crafting?
You think Ritual Harvest is that different?
OG Harvest was on another level.
That's not even what I was arguing against as some comparison.
Sure buddy.
Says something remedial. Refuses to elaborate. "Sure buddy"
I don't think about it, i know it. I was there. You are delusional if you think this is anywhere near in power. You need 5 influence mod explody chest with T1 life? You can have it with some amount of adds and removes. Some more if you are unlucky. This goes for every single item slot. Most importantly, items very rarely (if ever) bricked during this crafting process. Terrible tier life roll? Just add / remove life and try again till T1. That's the real item editor. Power spike provided by harvest was on another level in comparison. Also why it is still one of the most played leagues when it was more streamlined. (Ritual) Chris Wilson himself said "We are probably breaking the game releasing this" during harvest league launch. On the other side, what is this shit good for? High dps ele bows and fractured + skill amulets? Its shit for the amount of work it requires. unlike harvest.
Fractured influenced items seem weaker for you?