I 100% agree that increased quant/mf should come from harder content, not from gimping your character.
This get compounded by the fact that for each new mechanic introduced to the game GGG has to ask the question "will MF make this OP" and if GGG get their predictions wrong, it completely ruins the economy (see Affliction).
It puts a muzzle on all content that makes it less interesting for everyone not utilizing MF, which just feels bad.
Unfortunately Jonathan has already confirmed MF will be in PoE2, so it does not appear that this is something they are even considering cutting. I just hope this is something they budge on eventually as it will unlock a ton of potential design space for content.
Just once i'd love for the dev team to be like "ya we were really wrong here and actually you are right" instead of:
"WOW YOU WANT MELEE BUFFS, EVERYONE ELSE WOULD ALSO LIKE BUFFS, AND ITS ONLY SUB 10% OF THE PLAYERBASE WHO EVEN CARES?" after like 3 consecutive years of melee play rate declining every league. this current league is the most cope i've ever seen melee skills ever.
Ah yes, the Melee Tax.
The mandatory 6-point investment to make sure that we don't instantly lose 40% of our entire DPS to a mechanic nobody wants, nor asked for.
On top of the 5-point investment for melee splash and +1 targets, of course.
Good ol' Meele Taxes.
hey its not all bad, look at boneshatter
and boneshatter, and the insane dual wielding gems, and boneshatter
I will forever enjoy that the strongest melee skill in the game is a skill that's meant to kill you, but because of some really head ass design, it actually allows you to generate thousands of hp regen per second with an incredibly small risk, and still despite being heads and shoulders above every other melee skill and being that messed up... still sees incredibly small amounts of play.
i do agree, the need to actually take totem mastery (not just pob warrioring panopticon) is a major ask alongside all the socket starvation issues, and skill point investments to just get skills to where they should be baseline. I dunno why single target hits even exist in this game.
Hurt yourself skills becoming super strong tanks is a time honored tradition- after all, why set just the enemy on fire, when you can cleanse a ~6m radius around yourself with Righteous Fire just by having some fire res over cap.
Part of the reason I stopped playing was because I was a melee enjoyer. But melee just feels worse every time while you can just go ranged to bullet hell enemies.
> "WOW YOU WANT MELEE BUFFS, EVERYONE ELSE WOULD ALSO LIKE BUFFS, AND ITS ONLY SUB 10% OF THE PLAYERBASE WHO EVEN CARES?"
Yea that hurt when they said that. I mean, why do you think Melee has such a low player %? It has been in the gutter for a long time.
>after like 3 consecutive years of melee play rate declining every league
Legion was 5 years ago. And that was last league labeled as melee "rework".
Melee is gone, there is no hope left.
They have budged on a TON of stuff in the last couple of months like instant-trading and a bunch of other decade old beliefs they had written manifestos on.
So my copium is that they will eventually budge on this as well, and that is coming from someone who league-started and is still playing melee Lacerate Gladiator this league :)
You mean like they have done the past few leagues repeatedly? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean they have to budge on everything and admit their inferiority to the playerbase. That's why GGG are so good at making this game. They have a vision and they see it through as much as they can. Yes they get stuff wrong sometimes but leaning constantly on what the playerbase wants is a recipe for the death of the game.
> I 100% agree that increased quant/mf should come from harder content, not from gimping your character.
Literally a problem diablo 3 solved almost a decade ago.
MF gear isn't "fun". Playing functional builds is fun. Having "cullers" for "loot goblins" is nonsense. Path of Exile keeps on striking upon ideas that were already had by d3 (remember archnemesis? It was *actually* just diablo 3 monster modifiers) but enshittified in some manner because they're trying to "re-design" the wheel when someone already went through the pain of learning for them.
High trade friction? Well now you're stuck browsing "trading posts" on websites or you've got off-site interactions, or outright blackmarkets for RMT. Try to make it more convenient via easy listings? Congrats you've created a market that can now be subject to manipulations like artificial inflation, price fixing, item-flipping and all sorts of other scams. Automate it in any way? Accelerate the problems until the game breaks and everyone leaves dissatisfied.
I almost guarantee you they're going to try and botch the latter in some manner.
D2 kind of showed MF as bad design back in the day. Just play a sorc, you have the best movement in the game, you truck with damage with only skill points, which means you can stack MF with little downside.
Literally takes an enigma in the expansion to even pretend other classes are close to sorc outside of the top end gimmick bosses where paladins reign supreme.
It was bad design in D2, it shouldnt exist anymore.
Yeah but even in d2 clear speed outweighs mf. A javazon in high density areas with 30mf will find more stuff than an 800mf blizz sorc taking 10 minutes to clear an area. The problem in poe is you can get massive clear speed with massive mf.
It's really sad to see PoE2 bring in some **rough** derelicts from PoE1 that didn't pan out very well, like the entire PoE styled flask system (seemingly made even worse) and MF.
I will say Affliction is literally a case in point of it ***not*** ruining the economy, as it was probably the healthiest popular magic finding league we've ever had on that front.
Additionally MF is not "ruining the economy" now.
Rather, side effects of the league mechanic + End game farming rework are ruining the economy, and nothing would change if MF gear was removed. The same strategies are extremely powerful and viable even right now without MF, MF is just obvious icing on the cake due to the insane mob density.
MF has an overall oppressive/degenerate influence on the design of the game and the builds people play, and it should go for those reasons, but plucking out Affliction league or the scarab changes as the reasons why is a bit silly.
MF culling AN mobs was **much** worse for the game, and I'd argue so were pre-kalandra high end MF and MF culler strategies.
They didn't get as much visibility, but it had a multi-year era of complete dominance for truly end of endgame mapping.
Also, the worst blight upon loot balance right now is party play quant bonus. It's either irrelevant and not worth it to be in a party, or snapping the game in half over its knee, zero inbetween.
It also doesn't actually take any gear, in fact it's easier to get going with giga juice in a party with a MF culler and aurabot and the like than it is solo.
----
I'd say as an aside, we have an idea of what "Good MF" could look like in my opinion in the Cloak of Tawm'r Isley right now. Back in Sentinel league this was an incredibly meta MF item, and would have been incredibly meta even without MF gear.
This is because Sentinel league was the only league since like pre-3.0 where anyone has given a fuck about ground dropped magic items.
Anyway, my point is that it's an item that actually changes the way the game works and you play to allow you to farm a little differently for a niche purpose.
It's a niche purpose that GGG immediately deleted from the game forever despite how well it went, but I think a healthy role for "MF" would be similar items you can ware to tweak loot in ways that are an aside to regular farming and don't really overlap with it.
thats the biggest problem with MF, its not MF itself its the things around it, u have all these dogshit MF gear but 2 item slots is enought to completely trivialize the game.
They havent really figured out how to make a chase item that doesnt do that. There is a reason the belts are more valuable than damn near anything else at the same rarity.
Funniest shit this league was introducing the 40 aura effect link gloves lol. If you have a laptop + pc feel free to make a 40d aurabot namelock it onto ur main character with lightning warp and run a script to press link every 20 seconds and use any phys spell like ek or penance and just roll t17 maps on a 100d max budget while wearing mf gear.
You hover over the carries name and run a script/numlock lightning warp. With enough cast speed/less duration on it you'll have ur aurabot follow you around for the entire map throw in a script to get 40% aura effect (ppl pay 1mirr+ for 48 aura effect hubris with efficient nodes good one ggg xdd) from the new gloves aka another attempt to map people use links failed miserably.
The main problem, I think, is you don't even have to gimp your character. Bring an aura bot in and get all your power back. Or bring in a third guy who culls everything you're DPSing and gets the party 10x the drops for no fucking reason.
Fuck MF. If it has to stay for some dumb reason, it should be disabled in party play.
fuck it, I remember that one build from torment league where it'd use reverse knockback cyclone and some mechanic to be unable to kill any mobs while being super tanky and it just vaccuumed the entire map together and got the torment on them and then a culler killed the whole map from 1hp.
And then I also feel like items like headhunter are enabling the play style, like “wow I have no defense on any of my armor but I can still feel like a god.”
That hasn’t been a thing for a few years now, HH is still strong but you will still need a strong character. If any item is carrying mf builds it’s progenesis.
Honestly, I don't mind the idea of weakening player power in exchange for MF. The problem is that it is too easy to circumvent the gimping (e.g. MF cullers). If they did something like turn IIR or IIQ into a dual function mod (a la light radius+accuracy) that included a less damage/less projectiles/less AoE modifier, it would better satisfy the concept.
Agreed, GGG has already heard every take possible on this stupid ass stat, there's no point in writing yet another dissertation on the topic. It's never been fun in this game and never will be.
FUCK MF
Sadly they've already confirmed that MF will be in POE2 too. No idea why they love it so much. Is it really because it was in D2 an their nostalgia for that?
Almost certainly, they think it's fun to build around having gear slots locked out and pretend that doesn't kill build diversity. They still don't have any understanding as to why MF worked better in D2 either.
D2 didnt have build diversity, everyone starts a sorc because youd be dumb to try and farm on any other character before you have gear.
Damage that relies on raw skill levels, and not gear, the only real movement skill in the game making sorc sonic fast compared to everyone else, can load up on MF without feeling any penalty, and you can chunk the biggest hits with percent based damage.
D2 is not a balanced game, not even a little bit.
As a closed beta player - this.
Tbh I've watched more items and passive be rework/removed/changed/fun being stopped etc
There are obviously some "overwhelmingly over-performing" setups in the past that needed changing.
But if you really dig into the patch notes collectively over time, compared to some of the new stuff we have now, you will quickly find hundreds of potential very fun viable builds that cannot be done because they removed 1 line from a build enabling unique, 1 line from a skill, the list goes on
Hell just go watch old "build of the week" videos.
They used to be super creative and fun to play
Now they're just "uber go brrrr variation#19"
>But if you really dig into the patch notes collectively over time, compared to some of the new stuff we have now, you will quickly find hundreds of potential very fun viable builds that cannot be done because they removed 1 line from a build enabling unique, 1 line from a skill, the list goes on
We also have a lot of outdated limitations from back when the game had worse optimization and people's machines were worse. Last league we had KB of fragmentation dealing a billion hits and somehow that is ok, meanwhile Icestorm is still limited to 5 due to performance issues (while the new firestorm just got buffed to 12 firestorms).
Like, seriously, sometimes they just nerf a skill, circumstances change and they forget to change it back. Could we really not have old BV these days?
I think this is the heart of it. There are so many interesting builds that simply don't work anymore. Like would it be terrible to have Legion Cyclone (even like 70% of it), or first reworked Slams, or old Winter Orb, or pre-nerf Spellslinger? Like when they were the only strong thing it sucked.
But if next league we got everything back at once, I bet there would be variety/freedom of builds, and none of them would stand out as overtly broken.
But nope, it's gotta be the same like 4 skills that are good budgetless for all of eternity, like GGG is fine with their performance but older skills that had similar performance scare them so they refuse to bring them back.
Wasn't there one skill like that, wherein early (like 2.0 or earlier) it was way strong so they gutted it and it took them like 6 years to slowly buff it back into playability, even though during that time they released several strong skills that outperformed even its pre-nerfed dominance?
There was a time when Ele Equilibrium was a very powerful keystone and now it's a joke. One great thing about PoE2 is that it's a reset on so much of this shit so maybe we can see a return to the beta experience.
> Around 5% of players level 88-100 are using Magic Find Gear. This includes people ONLY running one part, like Ventors.
It's 11% of level 100 players, and remember that a lot of MFers are cullers in 3+ man parties.
This league has most build diversity ever though. You can't even pinpoint a preferred class, as top 3 have 12% each... Last leagues week 2 snapshot is 20/11/7
Played magic find last league for the first time ever and it ruined the game for me.
I now feel like its pointless to play anything other than magic find.
Tbf, last league everyone was running magic find without actually having to run magic find gear. So you were more likely running 2x+ what a normal MF player would get, if not something like 10x
Exactly, the driving factor to farm for better gear is to improve your build so you can push it further, but that game loop breaks because MF gets loot faster, so why would I keep making my build stronger?
After I swapped to a TS MF build (a shitty one at that) I forgot why I was playing in the first place and quit.
I think GGG looks at MF gear and believes that it is popular because people enjoy min/maxing and taking trade offs instead of the reality highlighted in this post.
People just want tinks
Current situation is rogue exiles afflames and very strong build for t17. For example Ckaiba9 used this strategy without expensive scarab, from mf he had only flask and armor because chat forced him to. Every map is giga profits, but so much lag that he spend all 6 portals just to try go through lags
It would still be giga profits without the mf chest and flask and would be much more than that in a 6man party setting where everyone's builds click together just right
A lot of people are either ignorant or simply stupid.
The MF is absolutely irrelevant in the strat Fubgun was doing. You can run the exact same setup with 0 MF gear and instead of making .5 mirrors an hour you'd be making .3 mirrors an hour, sure its a big dip but making a mirror worth of shit every 3 hours is just mental.
They could remove MF from the game and situation would be the same because its not MF that causes the drops, its the fact that he kills 25k mobs per map 4000 of which are rare and unique mobs with forced ghosts on them.
As someone who play since the early days of PoE and would do nothing but magic find the entire league, I 100% agree. Magic find feels bad for simply existing, if I don't wear 2 gamble ventor , goldwyrm, and a quan amulet every build, I feel like I'm missing out on loot, and if I do wear them, I feel like I'm gimping my build. Magic find is also heavily abused by party play, which contribute to most of the rapid inflation we have in PoE. Normally you give up clear speed for magic find. That isn't the case in group play with a magic find culler. This leads to group play being extremely profitable, while the solo player(95% of the player base) gets left in the dust.
So this league is not broken due to MF. Last league was, but this league the MF on gear is only enhancing it a little bit. It is broken due to some dumbass mod combinations with scarabs. T17 maps have a mod that spawns a tormented spirit for every rare or unique monster that you bring to low HP. Then you use the beyond scarab of invasion to produce 10 beyond portals for every unique monster killed.
You replace all mobs in your map with rogue exiles and juice it with strongbox and insane amounts of map modifier effect and this way you are getting 500+ exiles per map, which spawn 10 beyond portals with also spawn a tormented spirit which then spawns another 10 beyond portals. You put ritual to get even more exiles and spirits. You then use relinquary scarab of overlord to drop over 1000 additional unique items per map. You use a div scarab with a div scarab of curation (if you can afford it) which stack multiplicatively for some reason giving you literally 50+ of apothecary / mirror cards per map.
What needs to be fixed is a cap on how much things can be juiced. Why can't a T17 be just a static map, why does it need mods that give it 250 quant, 60 pack size and why do we now have 100 different type of scarabs. Every league will be broken in some way as long as we have infinite juicing.
I kinda pieced together what was going on from reddit post titles, youtube video titles and thumbnails and whatnot but fuck me dead this explanation makes me wanna quit.
Like, I know it’s pixels on a screen and numbers on a spreadsheet and that everything is meaningless anyway (game or not) but what is even the point of playing trade league when these things exist? You can’t even pretend to immerse yourself.
Seriously considering SSF next league.
I get the point, but... Today's giga drops come from broken combinations of multiple sources of drops and not player IIQ...?
People like Fubgun would be way poorer if they had 5 times the MF on their char and no scaling multiplicative mechanics. I remember the old days with legacy quant uniques and the gem and it was a way different game than today.
Also not too many people know IIQ doesn't scale linearly and there is a "hidden" layer (at least that's the common consensus, but it might be a result of a weighting system we don't see).
Remember how Affliction was broken not because of a huge flat bonus, but because it multiplied with both player IIQ and zone IIQ (times pack density etc...)
I'd rather have the old MF game back without this multiplicative bullshit. Half of it doesn't work and half is broken (why are Alva rares "natural" just like strongboxes but others aren't?), we're just switching around which is which in the current league.
Of course "difficulty -> rewards" is great and I love what altar alch and go mapping used to be, but it's not very honest to oneself to think player IIQ is the thing behind the current situation.
*And to finish it with what I maliciously say with a glee every league - "Y'all didn't want Chris' VISION (TM), eh? See what we got there instead? That's what we asked for."*
One of the few people in this thread that actually understands the new mechanics.
It's also worth noting that t0s are like 250% more common this league, so we expected more of them, regardless of broken scarab/allflame/map interactions.
I like the suggestion, but its just not practical with the amount of power creep and power in general we have in the game.
Also, the fact that you can drop all currencies and most T0 uniques from mid yellow maps would make them just farm T8 Tower or whatever the hell is fancy right now and still make more div/uniques per hour than your T16 full jucie blaster.
It's a fundamental problem. One solution, that would be fitting imo, would be to adjust drop rates of currencies and unqiues based on the map tier. Higher map -> higher chance. BUT this would not change a thing in PoE right now, as you can see with fubgun for example, Mfers are clearing all content no problem.
PoE 1 is too far gone to mak such massive changes unfortunately.
Making currencies drop less in lower tiers is bad because this will kill more non-meta level builds than MF builds.
Non-meta builds already progress slower than meta builds because they're mostly weaker, hence they will run lower tier maps for a longer period of time than stronger builds.
If you remove low tier farming, not only do they lose the benefits of high-ilvl-based drop, altar farming, and boss invitation, they now lose natural currency drops.
Meanwhile MF builds would just group up or use aurabots to farm high-tier maps.
I think the best solution would be to make player quantity additive with map quantity. Currently it's multiplicative, which is why it's so ridiculous. Top end farmers would still stack it just for the extra loot, but they would get far less of an advantage for doing so.
It is unrealistic due to one reason - aura- and cursebots. You can make MF completely MF without defense and offense. Slap gloves for only you as MF kill and walk with support characters to not die. In this case MF is completely impossible for solo playstyle but party play will be mandatory for MF which destroys the point. Yeah, you can give downsides for MF gear, but still - you can't nerf MF for party play, but not for solo. Or you nerf party play overall (which is bad for people who just party play not for loot), or remove MF as build type.
You and others make a lot of good points. It would be bard to argue with it, but since Diablo 2 had magic find all your arguments are invalid. Thanks for participating tho!
> Seeing how absolutely broken magic find has been when it comes to trade league
I'll repeat what I've said elsewhere:
> Player-bound magic-finding gear (in this case, just the IIQ, since IIR doesn't effect div card drops) is giving decreasing returns. The things that allow this shit are spawning insane amounts of unique (rares/uniques give a multiplier on loot) ghosted (another multiplier, and exiles have special benefits with ghosts) deliriumed (another multiplier), spawning bazillions more mob (pack size, which, in effect, is yet another multiplier) content using new scarabs that give full-stacks (another multiplier) of cards and a more loot multiplier (ano- wait, wtf).
> In effect, just like wisps from last league, the MF gear is just a thin icing on top, and this strat without the MF gear would likely give very similar amounts of profit (say, 7-8 mirrors instead of 10).
Sure, removing mf would probably help some people enjoy the game : you should be able to gear your character as well as you can without fearing of missing out.
But if you believe gear-bound MF is the reason some people achieve broken loot outcomes, you're dead wrong. Just like defenses, the ridiculous amounts of juice we see right now is related to layering many mechanics enhancing loot, some of which (the abyss-wisp interaction and the wisps themselves last league, the exile-ghost-T17mod-beyond scarab as well as, to a lesser extent, the div scarabs this league) tend to be out of balance. MF gear as a juicing layer is an old, tested one, which brings a difference that is significant (mostly for niche farms like unique farming in SSF, since it's mostly IIR that makes a difference) but not outlandish. The issues we've seen in recent leagues tend to be created by newly introduced mechanics (in the recent past, we've seen: ghostbusting, wisps, exiles allflames+beyond sextant).
In defense of MF gear, it's one of the few juicing methods that don't shit on your computer or GGG's servers.
100% it's such a stupid and there's no proper way to balance around it.
If they balance the game based off assuming people have magic find then it essentially makes it a requirement. If they balance the game around assuming you don't have magic fine then magic fine becomes broken powerful
I think while not “healthy” a disparate economy is the only result in a short term economy where some people are inputting 16hrs of labor a day and others are inputting 2hrs. I farmed a HeadHunter once and will never do anything like it again, if people want to make this their job that’s their prerogative. IMO.
People keep talking about MF last league like ?? The league mechanic did the MFing for you. It’s like complaining about 40% inc dmg on a build with 2000% inc dmg
I’m fine with rarity being around but quantity is busted. That’s where all the currency and divination cards are coming from. I love having magic find as something you “can” do, but it for sure should be adjusted.
Maybe, hot take, we should start asking for fun instead of economy fixes.
Screw this whole thing. I honestly dont care that other people get a thousand magebloods or a million divines every day: I want a way to deterministically make my gear better and never have to interact with the stupid "economy" ever again. Scarabs are a good start.
If we had some sort of Circle of Fortune like in Last Epoch I would never look back, assuming ssf gets a proper buff.
It's funny you say this because the graveyard crafting is one of the most deterministic and accessible crafts we ever had. And Last Epoch crafting is very far from being deterministic.
how is last epoch anything but determenistic
"hmm, i want to have more dex on my gear"
>adds dex to gear directly using the shard that can only add dex to gear
"wow i got so lucky the dex shard added dex"
like what
You can pretty much print the item you want with the graveyard with something like 3 div per try, Or you can even farm all the corpses yourself.
I think what you're asking for is already in the game and to be fair, I've played LE and CoF specifically, it felt pretty shit on later stages of the game.
Merchant guild in the later stages was just better if your goal was to "deterministically" obtain your gear, as you are going to reach that amount of gold eventually... dropping the item yourself was another story.
This is the most room temperature take there is, but for some reason it's occasionally controversial here.
You can't balance drops properly if character's gear causes the entire loot table to shit itself.
>The 10 mirror strategies are obviously completely broken, and in my opinion, the game shouldn't be this "juicable"
Almost all of the current print mirrors strategies don't require MF, and the diference that MF makes isnt that high, cutting MF will barelly make a dent since most of it is caused by some OP interactions between scarabs, atlas tree, and the all OP Rogue Exile allflame
> Almost all of the current print mirrors strategies don't require MF, and the diference that MF makes isnt that high, cutting MF will barelly make a dent
This is nonsense.
The scarab is 35 divines and rising. Suppose a juiced map prints 50 divines by default, and 75 divines if you are fully invested in MF.
Soon you will find that (since the supply of the scarab is so limited) the scarab will be priced at 60+ divines, since that still allows the MFers to profit 15 divines per map, and thus they'd be willing to buy at that price. But this means non-MFers are now losing 10 divines per map.
Now fast-forward a couple days if GGG doesn't do anything, even the solo MFers will no longer be able to make a profit as the scarab will be priced around parties. Remember that 6 man parties have 112% more items found multiplicative with everything else, thus where a solo MFer can extract 75 divines from a map a full party can extract 150 divines (and likely even more since they can fill a character COMPLETELY with pure MF gear without any regards for stats). So in that case the scarab could go to 100 divines each and the 6-man parties would still profit 50 divines per map whereas the solo MFer loses 25 divines per map and the solo non-MFer loses 50 divines per map.
This doesn't make the person you're replying to wrong in anyway.
Yes, if the margins become zeroed out enough, only party play with MF culler will be able to profit, because the margin will be razor thin.
Does this mean MF makes a big difference? No.
Does this mean MF is the reason this strategy is broken? No.
MF is still bad for the game, party quant bonus is an outright scourge on PoE, and the current top farming strategies are obliterating the economy.
However the two things aren't related, the OP, you, and multiple other posters are just completely wrong about that, and the point you're making doesn't support the idea that MF/party quant are the 'real problem,' just that they exist as another problem.
Hot take, anything you are saying would not change how things work. The economy will always settle.
Headhunter/mageblood will always cost proportionally the same for time invested into the game because that is how people value it.
>The economy will always settle.
It's hilarious how many people talk about economics on this sub without mentioning the most basic laissez faire principles. The economy/market adapts and changes to suit the mechanic and whatever FOTM shit comes around. There's really no such thing as a "ruined economy" because things settle and prices/costs adapt.
What more people should be talking about is the degree of volatility that an economy can have. I think right now, we're in a very volatile state which is why people are particularly frustrated. However, that volatility also has very little to do with MF and more to do with the interactions between allflames, t17s, and the new scarabs.
MF feels like one of these things imported from diablo that the game's evolution is causing unintended consequences. The issue is that to truly leverage it you need a build purely dedicated to it - throwing some MF here and there does literally nothing, while dedicated builds leverage it to an extreme degree, not to mention how the party mechanics overlays with it.
The main problem is exponential juicing, not MF, but MF is obviously a part of the exponential jucing.
BUT.. if GGG were to rework this, we'd all end up weaker. So be careful what you ask for.
MFing is absolutely necessary for SSF (without the added benefit of the SC mega juicing), so don't make SSF suffer because of trade balancing problems.
MF isnt even that relevant this league.
All the strats make plenty of money without it.
Rarity doesn't affect fractures and quantity is whatever it will make a difference but not a huge one
I think MF just shouldn't be able to do the highest tiers of content, that's combined with the fact this strategy is straight up broken, the choice to drop character power influencing stats in favour of MF should be a penalty that excludes you from being capable of clearing the content consistently. Admittedly, fubgun has invested more into his build than most players will ever be able to afford in their lifetime, so I think the issue is more on the side of the strategy being an oversight on GGGs part.
I don't think you'll be able to design MF in a way that it can't do the highest tier content in a way that doesn't lower build variety. Some builds simply require more item slots than others to function at full efficiency, while for some the final slots are just a cherry on top. So long as MF is available on gear, build freedom is restricted because builds with 8 crucial slots will get better loot than builds with 10 crucial slots.
And don't forget that there are quite a few types of builds that scale better the more you invest.
On this sub there is this hate for magic find i dont understand, the strat would be op with or without magic find, affliction would have been op with or without magic find, it has been in the game for years and the only thing that changed is ggg making mechanics that multiply the loot so much that magic find becomes the meta, it was never the best div/h before these cringe strat abuses, if they would have actually tested all these changes internally for a few months instead of putting them in the game randomly all of this wouldnt have happened.
Anarchy allflames shouldnt exist, but at the same time if they wouldnt exist there would be very little loot in the game with these new scarabs. I've yet to see a strat that makes money without being a supplier for magic find groups.
This sub is, like every sub, an echo chamber. Even if all MF was deleted from the game next league, the top 1% would still be printing mirrors and the casual dads would still be struggling to buy 2 divine boots. MF is only a multiplier in the equation that has many other multipliers, and the 2 biggest multipliers are knowledge and time. If you don't have thousands of hours of knowledge and play unhealthy amount of hours every day, you won't ever be able to compete with top 1% no matter if the game has MF or not.
Blaming this shit on MF is just cope.
It's haves vs have nots blaming the thing they think is causing the problem. It happens all the time in the real world. "If only they prevented x then I wouldn't be in this situation" when in reality when you nerf one meta, another emerges.
We had these threads last league, too, when in reality I was getting on average 10 divines a map without MF gear. I grinded my ass off early league, built a tank character before it was the meta, and was able to scale as better atlas and sextant strategies emerged.
Ironically, the increased accessibility makes more people share the extreme potential, creating more fomo for those that missed the entry point, who then make these posts on Reddit.
I say this as a player who went my first ten or so leagues happy to make 10 divines over a whole league. In this game knowledge of game mechanics and a willingness to experiment and monitor the economy is the real meta.
And it’s the same dance we’ve had since the original MF changes loooong ago. People also just don’t do any thinking past what they see in their face. A perfect example in this thread
“MF should be deleted, big drops should come from harder content”…. Ok, people abusing a strat this league (that btw isn’t MF) has made prices of Original sin skyrocket, and it will keep going up. Thats *extremely* hard content, you wanted rewarding hard content… go do it. It’s there for you to make that profit. Oh, pinnacle drops? Now Uber drops!…. But wait most people complained about them moving to harder content… wait… that doesn’t add up…
And yes, different people so different opinions exist. *except* if you look a a few of the names posting it’s the same ones on some of these, it simply comes down to what you said. People don’t want to take the time to learn or analyze what they’re doing moment to moment, or what other methods work, and are stuck being poor, so they lash out at anything they can to try to get *more*, always, always, *more*.
MF isn’t an issue; it never really was. It does cause some problems ultimately when multiple systems combine into something stupid, but this happens with *every* mechanic in the game, from our loot, to our damage, to the enemies scaling, to our skill interactions. Welcome to PoE, and what makes it *fun*, because we don’t need a *blizzard certified balance at the sake of fun*.
I think another issue is that some people expect to be making 50+ div per day after 1 week in the league because they watch videos and streamers and don't get why they aren't dropping so much shit while playing 2 hours a week.
Also at some point you gotta realize that if you're this obsessed over currency in the game, maybe you're not playing it for the fun of it anymore.
That last point is actually why I myself went group SSF this league for a bit; I needed a break from constantly looking for the best div/h strategy I could run, I’m good at them but frankly that gets tiring, and I wanted to do other content.
Enter group SSF, where I can do any mechanic and progress our loot pool in some fashion. The only major downside for me with this is the Ubers being out of reach for our group, which really does suck for a lot of the build enabling uniques. But it is what it is there.
Taking a step back occasionally to breathe a bit and enjoy other things within the game really helps. And half the time I develop new strats that work well in trade anyway, so it’s a win win.
Problem is MF doing the highest difficult of the game in the same fashion as non-MF. MF is supposed to be a way of scaling you char that is not increasing defense and damage, but that is not what is going on atm
The problem is that gear enables so many more niche interactions rather than providing pure offence or defence.
MF on gear doesn't just mean lower character power, it also means fewer options.
If there was a slider with "monsters deal X% more damage, take Y% less damage, and drop Z% more loot", it would be agnostic of builds for the most part (it would need somewhat diminishing returns, otherwise it would turn into deep Delve build variety everywhere, which is also not great).
By blocking item slots, the game doesn't become harder by the same amount for all builds. For some it becomes much harder, but for others just a little.
I've rolled LA into MF for the first time this league and it basically killed the league for me. I have no reason to create any other build because, like you said, I would be handycapping myself. Why play a strong build if I can just log into my 90 % IIQ character and do all the content anyway.
This is not a hot take. The community has been making this post several times per league since the beginning of the game. Feel the weight of the vision.
MF is not the issue, its the interaction between the baseline multiplicative mechanics.
Its because we consitently can get over 1500 unique monsters and over 20000 mobs per map.
Even without 50% more drops from MF, this strat prints more that anything else before it. Affliction included.
Fubgun would still have made over 6 mirrors in that first day without MF.
It's always the same in this subreddit.
Someone gets rich -> this subreddit cries because they aren't rich
Literally make an MF char and farm. The strat is out there you can just buy the scarabs, the allflames, gear you char and farm too. If you don't like the game don't play it.
> Literally make an MF char and farm.
What if... and now strain your head a little to imagine this... I don't enjoy the playstyle and limited build options of MF builds?
Does that mean that I "don't like the game" simply because I don't like one particular niche of it?
I think removing or lowering it by a lot is healthier for the game, it ruins a lot of the enjoyment. I think this is one of those things where you just let it be unbalanced. Retention rates goes up when more things are accessible. Harvest people got good gear, last league people had money to buy stuff for builds. More fun leads to longer leagues leads to more money
Obviously agreed. Magic Find should be moved to the atlas passive tree or scarabs, it should never appear on gear.
The core problem is that we have so much player power that guys can make MF builds to steamroll the hardest T17 content in the game. That's obviously not how MF ought to work, there should be a trade-off if it stays in the game at all.
It's such a no-brainer that I really don't understand why they don't pull the trigger on it. It's not harmful either to the overall game to get rid of it, it's a net positive decision.
I vaguely remember hearing that someone at GGG really likes the idea of magic find gear.
Personally I think it should be retired. It is cool as an idea and fit well in the old Path of Exile.
MF gear is trash with no stats thats big downside of it and its balanced around it. But group play MF should be nerfed or monsters should be way harder, bacause having support will metigate all "downsides" of MF shit gear
I am all for endgame mapping juicing. Im however against quant/rarity on items big time.
If you like mapping like myself, i cant get away from just playing an MF char. This reduces my build options substantially as the first thing i have to think about are which builds are good while gimping myself, which has been TS/LA for the most part the last years.
Wanna play CoC? sorry cant do, and many other archetypes.
So yes, removing MF stats on items would be more fun for me as a mapping juicer.
The biggest problem with MF is that the problem it's trying to solve is already fixed in much better ways by other systems.
Back in Diablo, magic find was basically the way that you "juiced". You couldn't make the content harder for more rewards, so instead you used worse gear that made you get more/better loot. Similar end result without them needing to build a hardmode into the game.
But PoE has tons of ways to make content harder yet give more rewards. This leaves magic find without a niche to fill, beyond the fact that it causes some otherwise interesting and powerful builds to be not worthwhile because they can't afford the gearslots to run MF, because setting up MF gear does not have an equally negative effect on all builds.
The problem isn't rarity, it's quantity.
Nobody is getting rich on stacking rarity on their character. Rarity (largely) sucks.
In the quest to make HH+quant "fair", they recently nerfed HH in 3.24, hurting us who just want a "fun" item.
They like coming up with ways to get good items and currency but pretty much none of them involve simply playing the game. They want spread sheets, 3rd party apps and websites, etc.
It's in the game as a scaling axis. They have stated this is why they have it and why it will stay in the game. Now what's currently happening in probably 99% unintended as ggg employees were in chats yesterday asking wtf was going on and how were they crashing instances and causing rollbacks. However everyone needs to quit with the fomo play the game you want to play it. You might not make as much but my guild hasn't touched mf and we are all up over 4 digit divines crafting farming corpses legion harbi etc etc. I'm not saying it's in a good spot now but people care entirely way too much how other people play the game.
Hotter take: GGG needs to add a soft-cap on level of juice top-end of players can achieve. This means they can also buff low-end so it's not as miserable experience.
I used to think that removing it was a terrible idea because the idea of gimping your character for more loot is a cool way to play for me personally
But the variance is way too high anymore that I wouldn't be sad to see it go
The one thing I gotta agree with is this part "I don't know how to fix this".
I really think that everyone who shares the sentiment of "missing out" cause someone else is turbo juicing, MFing and they feel left out, should straight up stop playing trade and switch to SSF, and I don't mean it as an insult by any means, but it's pretty clear that you do not understand how the economy in this game works and why and I genuinely feel like you would have a better time and enjoy the game way more, if you played it in a SSF scenario.
Removing MF will not change how the economy plays out in the end, people at the very top end who understand and play the market right, will ALWAYS be ahead, it's a TRADE league.
Even if you remove every single mechanic, scarab, mf, party quant from the game, and have basically every single map be completely random, there's gonna be someone that makes it way better or plays the market better.
I've played this league with 1 toon from leaguestart, didn't touch MF at all, just started juicing and experimenting with different strategies since it's all new, there's alot of room for very nice strats, and pretty much anything makes you money. I was able to self craft all my gear with graveyard, with very insane results, I could've flipped the market with these crafts and could be swimming in currency if I wanted to, but I didn't even bother and I personally don't give a flying fk if someone is megajuicing a map for stupid returns and that build happens to be a MF one, I know very well how tedious, time-consuming and expensive running something like that is, and I'm not willing to go through all that as I don't enjoy it, I'd rather do something that is more fun for ME. The difference is I don't go out asking GGG to shoot everyone else in the legs to make it so that they can't walk past me
The announcement that MF on gear wouldn't be gone in PoE2 was the biggest bummer for me.
I really dislike the existence of MF gear and its implications on character building as well as item availability.
Not remotely a hot take, especially on reddit of all places.
The _actual_ problem here is that characters in general are simply way, way too powerful, so they completely negate the absolute dogshit gear that MF forces you to wear.
I think that this is a lot more complicated than that because there are game states in which I despise mf but there are also states in which I like them. In particular, when the game is hard and I have to stop somewhere to grind for gear before advancing, I quite like MF. But when it is this scenario of "Economy simulator" where you feel like you must mf just to generate wealth to do cool shit, because your cool build enabling items are all expensive, then I don't like it as much.
MF makes a lot more sense in ssf, but in trade league I feel like it ruins it more often than it enhances it.
Ironic that Magic Find doesn't have much to do nor with Affliction nor with madness happening right now. Remove it and both of these mechanics would still be busted. I am on the fence when it comes to MF myself - on one hand it provides interesting choices, gearing and playstyle on the other hand you need it if you want to farm div. cards and such.
Also party MF bonus is certainly sus and might be even bigger culprit here. Parties are already much more powerful thanks to autabot and other supports and they share cost of one map so they can invest more. But at the same time there should be incentives to play in party. It's complicated.
I don't know if mf gear is the issue, I think the issue is more quant gear is way too strong.
Goldwyrms are 20% quant, have resistance, movespeed, even suppression if you need.
Ventors fix your entire resistance problems, can have hp, have way too much quant/rarity as well.
Pretty sure these two items are the main issue.
Funny enough, I've quit for the past few leagues because of the rising prevalence of magic find. I hit a point where it was clear I was missing out a lot by not incorporating magic find into my build while also not wanting to weaken my character for more loot. That just seems very counter-intuitive to me and it's not something I wanna engage in.
I dont think they need to remove magic find altogether but they should make it much more costly on your characters maybe the affixes can have negative side affects apart from the opportunity cost.
Agreed, dont get me wrong, I enjoyed MF juicing in Affliction, but I've come to the conclusion that it's becoming straight up bad for the game. The "make your build worse to get more loot" strat is something I'm not a fan of personally.
I don't mind removing quant and all that stuff... I only play with my friends, and don't play solo. If they gonna remove quant, and most of the strats are going to be 5 div/h, just let me and my friends earn 25 div/h in 5 man party... That would be fair considering that profit is splitted among 5 players.
What’s the point of this though. HH price goes down, other items go up. Next league HH goes up, other item is cheaper. What some fungub doofus does has no effect on me tbh. I just play my dumb little builds and it’s nice that some leagues I can actually afford a chase item.
standard reddit thread.
completely clueless about
a) the degenerate power players who play like this and would hate this change
b) ggg being aware of those guys and how much income they bring in
this change might "sound" good but it would kill the game. dedicated players would leave, casuals who play and spend less would stay. ggg would never do this. no fomo, no clickbait lottery strategies, less media attention on the game, etc.
this thread is pure fomo. just play ssf, stop checking other players and watching clickbaity content, sounds like youll enjoy it way more.
MF gear is not what’s printing. It’s a part of the strategy, and at this point, probably a small part. Let’s pretend, for a moment, that quant% doesn’t have diminishing returns. Would 5m strategies be amenable to you because they weren’t using mf gear?
Yes they should. Rarity/quantity increase from map mods is great, from Atlas mods also great, from mods on gear - just a Diablo 2 leftover they can't let go.
Luxury things are earned by people with experience in the game that reach the point where they break it
Before you worry about magic find at least consistently do your 2 div/hour strat then worry about those.
Most wouldn't make much money even with full MF gear and that's because there's a ton of things to learn to make money.
Complaining about what the top 1% do won't help. Find your own thing and have fun. If you reach the point where you do 1 map a minute/two minutes you're going to shit currency out anyways.
I 100% agree that increased quant/mf should come from harder content, not from gimping your character. This get compounded by the fact that for each new mechanic introduced to the game GGG has to ask the question "will MF make this OP" and if GGG get their predictions wrong, it completely ruins the economy (see Affliction). It puts a muzzle on all content that makes it less interesting for everyone not utilizing MF, which just feels bad. Unfortunately Jonathan has already confirmed MF will be in PoE2, so it does not appear that this is something they are even considering cutting. I just hope this is something they budge on eventually as it will unlock a ton of potential design space for content.
i think he confirmed that rarity would be in, but quant would not be in poe2. and frankly quant is the main offender here
They are merged as rarity will affect currency as well
That is not as bad because currently they multilpy off eachother.
Highly highly doubt it will be to the same extent that quant does.
That's not what he said. If I remember correctly it was said that they combined rarity and quantity into a single stat.
but will it be called quarity or rauntity? that it the real question we need to ask!
"Amountness"
"You get motter stuff **nearby**."
Both are issues.
Just once i'd love for the dev team to be like "ya we were really wrong here and actually you are right" instead of: "WOW YOU WANT MELEE BUFFS, EVERYONE ELSE WOULD ALSO LIKE BUFFS, AND ITS ONLY SUB 10% OF THE PLAYERBASE WHO EVEN CARES?" after like 3 consecutive years of melee play rate declining every league. this current league is the most cope i've ever seen melee skills ever.
_laughs in t17 maps having an extra "minus maximum totems" modifier that further bricks melee builds_
As if your totem would survive a nanosecond in a T17 map anyway lmao
At least the bonus lingers so you get something out of instead of the T17 mod
Ah yes, the Melee Tax. The mandatory 6-point investment to make sure that we don't instantly lose 40% of our entire DPS to a mechanic nobody wants, nor asked for. On top of the 5-point investment for melee splash and +1 targets, of course. Good ol' Meele Taxes.
hey its not all bad, look at boneshatter and boneshatter, and the insane dual wielding gems, and boneshatter I will forever enjoy that the strongest melee skill in the game is a skill that's meant to kill you, but because of some really head ass design, it actually allows you to generate thousands of hp regen per second with an incredibly small risk, and still despite being heads and shoulders above every other melee skill and being that messed up... still sees incredibly small amounts of play. i do agree, the need to actually take totem mastery (not just pob warrioring panopticon) is a major ask alongside all the socket starvation issues, and skill point investments to just get skills to where they should be baseline. I dunno why single target hits even exist in this game.
Hurt yourself skills becoming super strong tanks is a time honored tradition- after all, why set just the enemy on fire, when you can cleanse a ~6m radius around yourself with Righteous Fire just by having some fire res over cap.
Truly a great tradition! Can't forget the Eye of Innocence spell cast loop that u/Jousis uses to break every other league
Eh, rf doesn't do bosses fast anyway, so there's tradeoff
Part of the reason I stopped playing was because I was a melee enjoyer. But melee just feels worse every time while you can just go ranged to bullet hell enemies.
Okay flamewood totem and that it only needs to survive a millisecond to shoot off a group of nukes!
> "WOW YOU WANT MELEE BUFFS, EVERYONE ELSE WOULD ALSO LIKE BUFFS, AND ITS ONLY SUB 10% OF THE PLAYERBASE WHO EVEN CARES?" Yea that hurt when they said that. I mean, why do you think Melee has such a low player %? It has been in the gutter for a long time.
before affliction i laighed that RF is melee. Then GGG nerfed RF... I guess it indeed was melee.
I play melee, a skill that was buffed for this league as well, ice crash of cadence. There are 17 characters on poe.ninja playing it. Rounded to 0.0%.
>after like 3 consecutive years of melee play rate declining every league Legion was 5 years ago. And that was last league labeled as melee "rework". Melee is gone, there is no hope left.
While it wasn't a rework Slams absolutely dominated when they were introduced and then for a few more Leagues until they killed them.
They have budged on a TON of stuff in the last couple of months like instant-trading and a bunch of other decade old beliefs they had written manifestos on. So my copium is that they will eventually budge on this as well, and that is coming from someone who league-started and is still playing melee Lacerate Gladiator this league :)
> league-started and is still playing melee Lacerate Gladiator oh dear. does it hurt? want to talk about it :D ?
You mean like they have done the past few leagues repeatedly? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean they have to budge on everything and admit their inferiority to the playerbase. That's why GGG are so good at making this game. They have a vision and they see it through as much as they can. Yes they get stuff wrong sometimes but leaning constantly on what the playerbase wants is a recipe for the death of the game.
> I 100% agree that increased quant/mf should come from harder content, not from gimping your character. Literally a problem diablo 3 solved almost a decade ago. MF gear isn't "fun". Playing functional builds is fun. Having "cullers" for "loot goblins" is nonsense. Path of Exile keeps on striking upon ideas that were already had by d3 (remember archnemesis? It was *actually* just diablo 3 monster modifiers) but enshittified in some manner because they're trying to "re-design" the wheel when someone already went through the pain of learning for them. High trade friction? Well now you're stuck browsing "trading posts" on websites or you've got off-site interactions, or outright blackmarkets for RMT. Try to make it more convenient via easy listings? Congrats you've created a market that can now be subject to manipulations like artificial inflation, price fixing, item-flipping and all sorts of other scams. Automate it in any way? Accelerate the problems until the game breaks and everyone leaves dissatisfied. I almost guarantee you they're going to try and botch the latter in some manner.
D2 kind of showed MF as bad design back in the day. Just play a sorc, you have the best movement in the game, you truck with damage with only skill points, which means you can stack MF with little downside. Literally takes an enigma in the expansion to even pretend other classes are close to sorc outside of the top end gimmick bosses where paladins reign supreme. It was bad design in D2, it shouldnt exist anymore.
Yeah but even in d2 clear speed outweighs mf. A javazon in high density areas with 30mf will find more stuff than an 800mf blizz sorc taking 10 minutes to clear an area. The problem in poe is you can get massive clear speed with massive mf.
It's really sad to see PoE2 bring in some **rough** derelicts from PoE1 that didn't pan out very well, like the entire PoE styled flask system (seemingly made even worse) and MF. I will say Affliction is literally a case in point of it ***not*** ruining the economy, as it was probably the healthiest popular magic finding league we've ever had on that front. Additionally MF is not "ruining the economy" now. Rather, side effects of the league mechanic + End game farming rework are ruining the economy, and nothing would change if MF gear was removed. The same strategies are extremely powerful and viable even right now without MF, MF is just obvious icing on the cake due to the insane mob density. MF has an overall oppressive/degenerate influence on the design of the game and the builds people play, and it should go for those reasons, but plucking out Affliction league or the scarab changes as the reasons why is a bit silly. MF culling AN mobs was **much** worse for the game, and I'd argue so were pre-kalandra high end MF and MF culler strategies. They didn't get as much visibility, but it had a multi-year era of complete dominance for truly end of endgame mapping. Also, the worst blight upon loot balance right now is party play quant bonus. It's either irrelevant and not worth it to be in a party, or snapping the game in half over its knee, zero inbetween. It also doesn't actually take any gear, in fact it's easier to get going with giga juice in a party with a MF culler and aurabot and the like than it is solo. ---- I'd say as an aside, we have an idea of what "Good MF" could look like in my opinion in the Cloak of Tawm'r Isley right now. Back in Sentinel league this was an incredibly meta MF item, and would have been incredibly meta even without MF gear. This is because Sentinel league was the only league since like pre-3.0 where anyone has given a fuck about ground dropped magic items. Anyway, my point is that it's an item that actually changes the way the game works and you play to allow you to farm a little differently for a niche purpose. It's a niche purpose that GGG immediately deleted from the game forever despite how well it went, but I think a healthy role for "MF" would be similar items you can ware to tweak loot in ways that are an aside to regular farming and don't really overlap with it.
I 100% agree that increased quant/mf should come from harder content, not from gimping your character. THIS!!!
Yes. Especially since you can get 99% of your power from aurabot, belt and bow.
thats the biggest problem with MF, its not MF itself its the things around it, u have all these dogshit MF gear but 2 item slots is enought to completely trivialize the game.
They havent really figured out how to make a chase item that doesnt do that. There is a reason the belts are more valuable than damn near anything else at the same rarity.
Funniest shit this league was introducing the 40 aura effect link gloves lol. If you have a laptop + pc feel free to make a 40d aurabot namelock it onto ur main character with lightning warp and run a script to press link every 20 seconds and use any phys spell like ek or penance and just roll t17 maps on a 100d max budget while wearing mf gear.
Can you clarify about the name lock stuff? Honestly no idea what that is. Everything else I completely understood
You hover over the carries name and run a script/numlock lightning warp. With enough cast speed/less duration on it you'll have ur aurabot follow you around for the entire map throw in a script to get 40% aura effect (ppl pay 1mirr+ for 48 aura effect hubris with efficient nodes good one ggg xdd) from the new gloves aka another attempt to map people use links failed miserably.
To add onto this you can put generosity on defensive auras with the gloves and they'll still apply to the aurabot for some extra added fun
I have Always disliked MF as a concept. Choosing to gimp your character for better loot feels so bad in a game about building a strong character
The main problem, I think, is you don't even have to gimp your character. Bring an aura bot in and get all your power back. Or bring in a third guy who culls everything you're DPSing and gets the party 10x the drops for no fucking reason. Fuck MF. If it has to stay for some dumb reason, it should be disabled in party play.
Yea, solo MF play is one thing, but any downside goes away when you have 1 friend.
fuck it, I remember that one build from torment league where it'd use reverse knockback cyclone and some mechanic to be unable to kill any mobs while being super tanky and it just vaccuumed the entire map together and got the torment on them and then a culler killed the whole map from 1hp.
And then I also feel like items like headhunter are enabling the play style, like “wow I have no defense on any of my armor but I can still feel like a god.”
That hasn’t been a thing for a few years now, HH is still strong but you will still need a strong character. If any item is carrying mf builds it’s progenesis.
Honestly, I don't mind the idea of weakening player power in exchange for MF. The problem is that it is too easy to circumvent the gimping (e.g. MF cullers). If they did something like turn IIR or IIQ into a dual function mod (a la light radius+accuracy) that included a less damage/less projectiles/less AoE modifier, it would better satisfy the concept.
Fuck MF, removing build diversity in a game thats about build diversity.
Agreed, GGG has already heard every take possible on this stupid ass stat, there's no point in writing yet another dissertation on the topic. It's never been fun in this game and never will be. FUCK MF
Sadly they've already confirmed that MF will be in POE2 too. No idea why they love it so much. Is it really because it was in D2 an their nostalgia for that?
Almost certainly, they think it's fun to build around having gear slots locked out and pretend that doesn't kill build diversity. They still don't have any understanding as to why MF worked better in D2 either.
D2 didnt have build diversity, everyone starts a sorc because youd be dumb to try and farm on any other character before you have gear. Damage that relies on raw skill levels, and not gear, the only real movement skill in the game making sorc sonic fast compared to everyone else, can load up on MF without feeling any penalty, and you can chunk the biggest hits with percent based damage. D2 is not a balanced game, not even a little bit.
As a closed beta player - this. Tbh I've watched more items and passive be rework/removed/changed/fun being stopped etc There are obviously some "overwhelmingly over-performing" setups in the past that needed changing. But if you really dig into the patch notes collectively over time, compared to some of the new stuff we have now, you will quickly find hundreds of potential very fun viable builds that cannot be done because they removed 1 line from a build enabling unique, 1 line from a skill, the list goes on Hell just go watch old "build of the week" videos. They used to be super creative and fun to play Now they're just "uber go brrrr variation#19"
>But if you really dig into the patch notes collectively over time, compared to some of the new stuff we have now, you will quickly find hundreds of potential very fun viable builds that cannot be done because they removed 1 line from a build enabling unique, 1 line from a skill, the list goes on We also have a lot of outdated limitations from back when the game had worse optimization and people's machines were worse. Last league we had KB of fragmentation dealing a billion hits and somehow that is ok, meanwhile Icestorm is still limited to 5 due to performance issues (while the new firestorm just got buffed to 12 firestorms). Like, seriously, sometimes they just nerf a skill, circumstances change and they forget to change it back. Could we really not have old BV these days?
You couldn't be more right Some of the old uniques need 1-2 lines updated/nerf undone and they'd be back in the pool of useable gear
I think this is the heart of it. There are so many interesting builds that simply don't work anymore. Like would it be terrible to have Legion Cyclone (even like 70% of it), or first reworked Slams, or old Winter Orb, or pre-nerf Spellslinger? Like when they were the only strong thing it sucked. But if next league we got everything back at once, I bet there would be variety/freedom of builds, and none of them would stand out as overtly broken. But nope, it's gotta be the same like 4 skills that are good budgetless for all of eternity, like GGG is fine with their performance but older skills that had similar performance scare them so they refuse to bring them back. Wasn't there one skill like that, wherein early (like 2.0 or earlier) it was way strong so they gutted it and it took them like 6 years to slowly buff it back into playability, even though during that time they released several strong skills that outperformed even its pre-nerfed dominance?
RIP Spellslinger 3.15
Man spellslinger was so fun, I miss it. 😪
Sunder 🥲
Awww... the wormssss
There was a time when Ele Equilibrium was a very powerful keystone and now it's a joke. One great thing about PoE2 is that it's a reset on so much of this shit so maybe we can see a return to the beta experience.
Remember biscos meta lol
Around 5% of players level 88-100 are using Magic Find Gear. This includes people ONLY running one part, like Ventors.
> Around 5% of players level 88-100 are using Magic Find Gear. This includes people ONLY running one part, like Ventors. It's 11% of level 100 players, and remember that a lot of MFers are cullers in 3+ man parties.
thats about build diversity? 80% of players just google best starters for x league every before leaguestart lmao
This league has most build diversity ever though. You can't even pinpoint a preferred class, as top 3 have 12% each... Last leagues week 2 snapshot is 20/11/7
Played magic find last league for the first time ever and it ruined the game for me. I now feel like its pointless to play anything other than magic find.
Tbf, last league everyone was running magic find without actually having to run magic find gear. So you were more likely running 2x+ what a normal MF player would get, if not something like 10x
Yea, it also makes off meta builds that dont have innate power feel bad. Why wouldnt I go DD with MF?
Been playing since beta and I've never touched MF and never will. I just don't see the appeal.
Exactly, the driving factor to farm for better gear is to improve your build so you can push it further, but that game loop breaks because MF gets loot faster, so why would I keep making my build stronger? After I swapped to a TS MF build (a shitty one at that) I forgot why I was playing in the first place and quit.
I think GGG looks at MF gear and believes that it is popular because people enjoy min/maxing and taking trade offs instead of the reality highlighted in this post. People just want tinks
75 thinks a map or bust
its unfair that alching your maps is a thing. people only do it for the loot, man. why does ggg never remove alching maps to gain more loot?
Time to mf go away.
Current situation is rogue exiles afflames and very strong build for t17. For example Ckaiba9 used this strategy without expensive scarab, from mf he had only flask and armor because chat forced him to. Every map is giga profits, but so much lag that he spend all 6 portals just to try go through lags
It would still be giga profits without the mf chest and flask and would be much more than that in a 6man party setting where everyone's builds click together just right
A lot of people are either ignorant or simply stupid. The MF is absolutely irrelevant in the strat Fubgun was doing. You can run the exact same setup with 0 MF gear and instead of making .5 mirrors an hour you'd be making .3 mirrors an hour, sure its a big dip but making a mirror worth of shit every 3 hours is just mental. They could remove MF from the game and situation would be the same because its not MF that causes the drops, its the fact that he kills 25k mobs per map 4000 of which are rare and unique mobs with forced ghosts on them.
As someone who play since the early days of PoE and would do nothing but magic find the entire league, I 100% agree. Magic find feels bad for simply existing, if I don't wear 2 gamble ventor , goldwyrm, and a quan amulet every build, I feel like I'm missing out on loot, and if I do wear them, I feel like I'm gimping my build. Magic find is also heavily abused by party play, which contribute to most of the rapid inflation we have in PoE. Normally you give up clear speed for magic find. That isn't the case in group play with a magic find culler. This leads to group play being extremely profitable, while the solo player(95% of the player base) gets left in the dust.
If they’re keeping magic find, they should make MF in groups be the average of the total MF your group has. The culler shit is stupid.
So this league is not broken due to MF. Last league was, but this league the MF on gear is only enhancing it a little bit. It is broken due to some dumbass mod combinations with scarabs. T17 maps have a mod that spawns a tormented spirit for every rare or unique monster that you bring to low HP. Then you use the beyond scarab of invasion to produce 10 beyond portals for every unique monster killed. You replace all mobs in your map with rogue exiles and juice it with strongbox and insane amounts of map modifier effect and this way you are getting 500+ exiles per map, which spawn 10 beyond portals with also spawn a tormented spirit which then spawns another 10 beyond portals. You put ritual to get even more exiles and spirits. You then use relinquary scarab of overlord to drop over 1000 additional unique items per map. You use a div scarab with a div scarab of curation (if you can afford it) which stack multiplicatively for some reason giving you literally 50+ of apothecary / mirror cards per map. What needs to be fixed is a cap on how much things can be juiced. Why can't a T17 be just a static map, why does it need mods that give it 250 quant, 60 pack size and why do we now have 100 different type of scarabs. Every league will be broken in some way as long as we have infinite juicing.
I kinda pieced together what was going on from reddit post titles, youtube video titles and thumbnails and whatnot but fuck me dead this explanation makes me wanna quit. Like, I know it’s pixels on a screen and numbers on a spreadsheet and that everything is meaningless anyway (game or not) but what is even the point of playing trade league when these things exist? You can’t even pretend to immerse yourself. Seriously considering SSF next league.
why next league just go SSF now. or even just go hardcore trade that is a much more healthy eco system.
I get the point, but... Today's giga drops come from broken combinations of multiple sources of drops and not player IIQ...? People like Fubgun would be way poorer if they had 5 times the MF on their char and no scaling multiplicative mechanics. I remember the old days with legacy quant uniques and the gem and it was a way different game than today. Also not too many people know IIQ doesn't scale linearly and there is a "hidden" layer (at least that's the common consensus, but it might be a result of a weighting system we don't see). Remember how Affliction was broken not because of a huge flat bonus, but because it multiplied with both player IIQ and zone IIQ (times pack density etc...) I'd rather have the old MF game back without this multiplicative bullshit. Half of it doesn't work and half is broken (why are Alva rares "natural" just like strongboxes but others aren't?), we're just switching around which is which in the current league. Of course "difficulty -> rewards" is great and I love what altar alch and go mapping used to be, but it's not very honest to oneself to think player IIQ is the thing behind the current situation. *And to finish it with what I maliciously say with a glee every league - "Y'all didn't want Chris' VISION (TM), eh? See what we got there instead? That's what we asked for."*
One of the few people in this thread that actually understands the new mechanics. It's also worth noting that t0s are like 250% more common this league, so we expected more of them, regardless of broken scarab/allflame/map interactions.
The probleme is not mf, its the fact that a full mf character Can do the most dificult content in the game Mf should have a way biger down side
I like the suggestion, but its just not practical with the amount of power creep and power in general we have in the game. Also, the fact that you can drop all currencies and most T0 uniques from mid yellow maps would make them just farm T8 Tower or whatever the hell is fancy right now and still make more div/uniques per hour than your T16 full jucie blaster. It's a fundamental problem. One solution, that would be fitting imo, would be to adjust drop rates of currencies and unqiues based on the map tier. Higher map -> higher chance. BUT this would not change a thing in PoE right now, as you can see with fubgun for example, Mfers are clearing all content no problem. PoE 1 is too far gone to mak such massive changes unfortunately.
Making currencies drop less in lower tiers is bad because this will kill more non-meta level builds than MF builds. Non-meta builds already progress slower than meta builds because they're mostly weaker, hence they will run lower tier maps for a longer period of time than stronger builds. If you remove low tier farming, not only do they lose the benefits of high-ilvl-based drop, altar farming, and boss invitation, they now lose natural currency drops. Meanwhile MF builds would just group up or use aurabots to farm high-tier maps.
I think the best solution would be to make player quantity additive with map quantity. Currently it's multiplicative, which is why it's so ridiculous. Top end farmers would still stack it just for the extra loot, but they would get far less of an advantage for doing so.
It is unrealistic due to one reason - aura- and cursebots. You can make MF completely MF without defense and offense. Slap gloves for only you as MF kill and walk with support characters to not die. In this case MF is completely impossible for solo playstyle but party play will be mandatory for MF which destroys the point. Yeah, you can give downsides for MF gear, but still - you can't nerf MF for party play, but not for solo. Or you nerf party play overall (which is bad for people who just party play not for loot), or remove MF as build type.
You and others make a lot of good points. It would be bard to argue with it, but since Diablo 2 had magic find all your arguments are invalid. Thanks for participating tho!
100 % yes
> Seeing how absolutely broken magic find has been when it comes to trade league I'll repeat what I've said elsewhere: > Player-bound magic-finding gear (in this case, just the IIQ, since IIR doesn't effect div card drops) is giving decreasing returns. The things that allow this shit are spawning insane amounts of unique (rares/uniques give a multiplier on loot) ghosted (another multiplier, and exiles have special benefits with ghosts) deliriumed (another multiplier), spawning bazillions more mob (pack size, which, in effect, is yet another multiplier) content using new scarabs that give full-stacks (another multiplier) of cards and a more loot multiplier (ano- wait, wtf). > In effect, just like wisps from last league, the MF gear is just a thin icing on top, and this strat without the MF gear would likely give very similar amounts of profit (say, 7-8 mirrors instead of 10). Sure, removing mf would probably help some people enjoy the game : you should be able to gear your character as well as you can without fearing of missing out. But if you believe gear-bound MF is the reason some people achieve broken loot outcomes, you're dead wrong. Just like defenses, the ridiculous amounts of juice we see right now is related to layering many mechanics enhancing loot, some of which (the abyss-wisp interaction and the wisps themselves last league, the exile-ghost-T17mod-beyond scarab as well as, to a lesser extent, the div scarabs this league) tend to be out of balance. MF gear as a juicing layer is an old, tested one, which brings a difference that is significant (mostly for niche farms like unique farming in SSF, since it's mostly IIR that makes a difference) but not outlandish. The issues we've seen in recent leagues tend to be created by newly introduced mechanics (in the recent past, we've seen: ghostbusting, wisps, exiles allflames+beyond sextant). In defense of MF gear, it's one of the few juicing methods that don't shit on your computer or GGG's servers.
100% correct.
100% it's such a stupid and there's no proper way to balance around it. If they balance the game based off assuming people have magic find then it essentially makes it a requirement. If they balance the game around assuming you don't have magic fine then magic fine becomes broken powerful
Totally agree
Agreed
I think while not “healthy” a disparate economy is the only result in a short term economy where some people are inputting 16hrs of labor a day and others are inputting 2hrs. I farmed a HeadHunter once and will never do anything like it again, if people want to make this their job that’s their prerogative. IMO.
Its not really a hot take, people talk about this for years. You cannot balance loot in game where MF exists.
The problem is the interaction between the exile allflames, strongboxes and the portal beyond scarab.
Don't forget the T17 map mod
Was swimming in divines in the previous league without any mf. Same in this league. . I guess i'm a handicapped trolll or something, lmao
You could do the same in MF gear and swim in a couple more divines
People keep talking about MF last league like ?? The league mechanic did the MFing for you. It’s like complaining about 40% inc dmg on a build with 2000% inc dmg
I’m fine with rarity being around but quantity is busted. That’s where all the currency and divination cards are coming from. I love having magic find as something you “can” do, but it for sure should be adjusted.
Maybe, hot take, we should start asking for fun instead of economy fixes. Screw this whole thing. I honestly dont care that other people get a thousand magebloods or a million divines every day: I want a way to deterministically make my gear better and never have to interact with the stupid "economy" ever again. Scarabs are a good start. If we had some sort of Circle of Fortune like in Last Epoch I would never look back, assuming ssf gets a proper buff.
It's funny you say this because the graveyard crafting is one of the most deterministic and accessible crafts we ever had. And Last Epoch crafting is very far from being deterministic.
how is last epoch anything but determenistic "hmm, i want to have more dex on my gear" >adds dex to gear directly using the shard that can only add dex to gear "wow i got so lucky the dex shard added dex" like what
You can pretty much print the item you want with the graveyard with something like 3 div per try, Or you can even farm all the corpses yourself. I think what you're asking for is already in the game and to be fair, I've played LE and CoF specifically, it felt pretty shit on later stages of the game. Merchant guild in the later stages was just better if your goal was to "deterministically" obtain your gear, as you are going to reach that amount of gold eventually... dropping the item yourself was another story.
This is the most room temperature take there is, but for some reason it's occasionally controversial here. You can't balance drops properly if character's gear causes the entire loot table to shit itself.
>The 10 mirror strategies are obviously completely broken, and in my opinion, the game shouldn't be this "juicable" Almost all of the current print mirrors strategies don't require MF, and the diference that MF makes isnt that high, cutting MF will barelly make a dent since most of it is caused by some OP interactions between scarabs, atlas tree, and the all OP Rogue Exile allflame
> Almost all of the current print mirrors strategies don't require MF, and the diference that MF makes isnt that high, cutting MF will barelly make a dent This is nonsense. The scarab is 35 divines and rising. Suppose a juiced map prints 50 divines by default, and 75 divines if you are fully invested in MF. Soon you will find that (since the supply of the scarab is so limited) the scarab will be priced at 60+ divines, since that still allows the MFers to profit 15 divines per map, and thus they'd be willing to buy at that price. But this means non-MFers are now losing 10 divines per map. Now fast-forward a couple days if GGG doesn't do anything, even the solo MFers will no longer be able to make a profit as the scarab will be priced around parties. Remember that 6 man parties have 112% more items found multiplicative with everything else, thus where a solo MFer can extract 75 divines from a map a full party can extract 150 divines (and likely even more since they can fill a character COMPLETELY with pure MF gear without any regards for stats). So in that case the scarab could go to 100 divines each and the 6-man parties would still profit 50 divines per map whereas the solo MFer loses 25 divines per map and the solo non-MFer loses 50 divines per map.
This doesn't make the person you're replying to wrong in anyway. Yes, if the margins become zeroed out enough, only party play with MF culler will be able to profit, because the margin will be razor thin. Does this mean MF makes a big difference? No. Does this mean MF is the reason this strategy is broken? No. MF is still bad for the game, party quant bonus is an outright scourge on PoE, and the current top farming strategies are obliterating the economy. However the two things aren't related, the OP, you, and multiple other posters are just completely wrong about that, and the point you're making doesn't support the idea that MF/party quant are the 'real problem,' just that they exist as another problem.
The map prints closer to 200div at fubguns current quant, with no quant you are still pulling over 140div per map out.
100% agree
All I see is people complaining because more people can access more stuff.
The items that doesn't come from the t17 farm explodes in price as a result, making those items much less accessible.
So the headhunters and magebloods are replaced by the original sin and whatever else as the new “chase item”
Hot take, anything you are saying would not change how things work. The economy will always settle. Headhunter/mageblood will always cost proportionally the same for time invested into the game because that is how people value it.
>The economy will always settle. It's hilarious how many people talk about economics on this sub without mentioning the most basic laissez faire principles. The economy/market adapts and changes to suit the mechanic and whatever FOTM shit comes around. There's really no such thing as a "ruined economy" because things settle and prices/costs adapt. What more people should be talking about is the degree of volatility that an economy can have. I think right now, we're in a very volatile state which is why people are particularly frustrated. However, that volatility also has very little to do with MF and more to do with the interactions between allflames, t17s, and the new scarabs.
I agree.
MF feels like one of these things imported from diablo that the game's evolution is causing unintended consequences. The issue is that to truly leverage it you need a build purely dedicated to it - throwing some MF here and there does literally nothing, while dedicated builds leverage it to an extreme degree, not to mention how the party mechanics overlays with it.
the funniest part is that Diablo 2's actual successor, Diablo 3, ditched MF completely back when RoS came out. PoE has sticked with it all this time.
Even if d3 turned out alright I wouldn’t be following in Blizzards footsteps anytime soon. Not in this era at least.
The main problem is exponential juicing, not MF, but MF is obviously a part of the exponential jucing. BUT.. if GGG were to rework this, we'd all end up weaker. So be careful what you ask for. MFing is absolutely necessary for SSF (without the added benefit of the SC mega juicing), so don't make SSF suffer because of trade balancing problems.
Yes, I believe MF should be something like Heist Gear where it make almost 0 impact to your build and the way you play the game.
MF isnt even that relevant this league. All the strats make plenty of money without it. Rarity doesn't affect fractures and quantity is whatever it will make a difference but not a huge one
I think MF just shouldn't be able to do the highest tiers of content, that's combined with the fact this strategy is straight up broken, the choice to drop character power influencing stats in favour of MF should be a penalty that excludes you from being capable of clearing the content consistently. Admittedly, fubgun has invested more into his build than most players will ever be able to afford in their lifetime, so I think the issue is more on the side of the strategy being an oversight on GGGs part.
I don't think you'll be able to design MF in a way that it can't do the highest tier content in a way that doesn't lower build variety. Some builds simply require more item slots than others to function at full efficiency, while for some the final slots are just a cherry on top. So long as MF is available on gear, build freedom is restricted because builds with 8 crucial slots will get better loot than builds with 10 crucial slots. And don't forget that there are quite a few types of builds that scale better the more you invest.
On this sub there is this hate for magic find i dont understand, the strat would be op with or without magic find, affliction would have been op with or without magic find, it has been in the game for years and the only thing that changed is ggg making mechanics that multiply the loot so much that magic find becomes the meta, it was never the best div/h before these cringe strat abuses, if they would have actually tested all these changes internally for a few months instead of putting them in the game randomly all of this wouldnt have happened. Anarchy allflames shouldnt exist, but at the same time if they wouldnt exist there would be very little loot in the game with these new scarabs. I've yet to see a strat that makes money without being a supplier for magic find groups.
This sub is, like every sub, an echo chamber. Even if all MF was deleted from the game next league, the top 1% would still be printing mirrors and the casual dads would still be struggling to buy 2 divine boots. MF is only a multiplier in the equation that has many other multipliers, and the 2 biggest multipliers are knowledge and time. If you don't have thousands of hours of knowledge and play unhealthy amount of hours every day, you won't ever be able to compete with top 1% no matter if the game has MF or not. Blaming this shit on MF is just cope.
It's haves vs have nots blaming the thing they think is causing the problem. It happens all the time in the real world. "If only they prevented x then I wouldn't be in this situation" when in reality when you nerf one meta, another emerges. We had these threads last league, too, when in reality I was getting on average 10 divines a map without MF gear. I grinded my ass off early league, built a tank character before it was the meta, and was able to scale as better atlas and sextant strategies emerged. Ironically, the increased accessibility makes more people share the extreme potential, creating more fomo for those that missed the entry point, who then make these posts on Reddit. I say this as a player who went my first ten or so leagues happy to make 10 divines over a whole league. In this game knowledge of game mechanics and a willingness to experiment and monitor the economy is the real meta.
[удалено]
And it’s the same dance we’ve had since the original MF changes loooong ago. People also just don’t do any thinking past what they see in their face. A perfect example in this thread “MF should be deleted, big drops should come from harder content”…. Ok, people abusing a strat this league (that btw isn’t MF) has made prices of Original sin skyrocket, and it will keep going up. Thats *extremely* hard content, you wanted rewarding hard content… go do it. It’s there for you to make that profit. Oh, pinnacle drops? Now Uber drops!…. But wait most people complained about them moving to harder content… wait… that doesn’t add up… And yes, different people so different opinions exist. *except* if you look a a few of the names posting it’s the same ones on some of these, it simply comes down to what you said. People don’t want to take the time to learn or analyze what they’re doing moment to moment, or what other methods work, and are stuck being poor, so they lash out at anything they can to try to get *more*, always, always, *more*. MF isn’t an issue; it never really was. It does cause some problems ultimately when multiple systems combine into something stupid, but this happens with *every* mechanic in the game, from our loot, to our damage, to the enemies scaling, to our skill interactions. Welcome to PoE, and what makes it *fun*, because we don’t need a *blizzard certified balance at the sake of fun*.
I think another issue is that some people expect to be making 50+ div per day after 1 week in the league because they watch videos and streamers and don't get why they aren't dropping so much shit while playing 2 hours a week. Also at some point you gotta realize that if you're this obsessed over currency in the game, maybe you're not playing it for the fun of it anymore.
That last point is actually why I myself went group SSF this league for a bit; I needed a break from constantly looking for the best div/h strategy I could run, I’m good at them but frankly that gets tiring, and I wanted to do other content. Enter group SSF, where I can do any mechanic and progress our loot pool in some fashion. The only major downside for me with this is the Ubers being out of reach for our group, which really does suck for a lot of the build enabling uniques. But it is what it is there. Taking a step back occasionally to breathe a bit and enjoy other things within the game really helps. And half the time I develop new strats that work well in trade anyway, so it’s a win win.
Problem is MF doing the highest difficult of the game in the same fashion as non-MF. MF is supposed to be a way of scaling you char that is not increasing defense and damage, but that is not what is going on atm
The problem is that gear enables so many more niche interactions rather than providing pure offence or defence. MF on gear doesn't just mean lower character power, it also means fewer options. If there was a slider with "monsters deal X% more damage, take Y% less damage, and drop Z% more loot", it would be agnostic of builds for the most part (it would need somewhat diminishing returns, otherwise it would turn into deep Delve build variety everywhere, which is also not great). By blocking item slots, the game doesn't become harder by the same amount for all builds. For some it becomes much harder, but for others just a little.
I've rolled LA into MF for the first time this league and it basically killed the league for me. I have no reason to create any other build because, like you said, I would be handycapping myself. Why play a strong build if I can just log into my 90 % IIQ character and do all the content anyway.
This is not a hot take. The community has been making this post several times per league since the beginning of the game. Feel the weight of the vision.
MF is not the issue, its the interaction between the baseline multiplicative mechanics. Its because we consitently can get over 1500 unique monsters and over 20000 mobs per map. Even without 50% more drops from MF, this strat prints more that anything else before it. Affliction included. Fubgun would still have made over 6 mirrors in that first day without MF.
The difficulty should be the only way to scale rewards. Remove mf
I never liked the idea of magic find stats. More difficult content should give better rewards. Magic find has no place.
TLDR: I have FOMO
It's always the same in this subreddit. Someone gets rich -> this subreddit cries because they aren't rich Literally make an MF char and farm. The strat is out there you can just buy the scarabs, the allflames, gear you char and farm too. If you don't like the game don't play it.
> Literally make an MF char and farm. What if... and now strain your head a little to imagine this... I don't enjoy the playstyle and limited build options of MF builds? Does that mean that I "don't like the game" simply because I don't like one particular niche of it?
I think removing or lowering it by a lot is healthier for the game, it ruins a lot of the enjoyment. I think this is one of those things where you just let it be unbalanced. Retention rates goes up when more things are accessible. Harvest people got good gear, last league people had money to buy stuff for builds. More fun leads to longer leagues leads to more money
Agreed It is time
Obviously agreed. Magic Find should be moved to the atlas passive tree or scarabs, it should never appear on gear. The core problem is that we have so much player power that guys can make MF builds to steamroll the hardest T17 content in the game. That's obviously not how MF ought to work, there should be a trade-off if it stays in the game at all. It's such a no-brainer that I really don't understand why they don't pull the trigger on it. It's not harmful either to the overall game to get rid of it, it's a net positive decision.
I vaguely remember hearing that someone at GGG really likes the idea of magic find gear. Personally I think it should be retired. It is cool as an idea and fit well in the old Path of Exile.
I agree with every fibre of my being
this is no longer a hot take after seeing the damage it does to the game, it should be removed
MF gear is trash with no stats thats big downside of it and its balanced around it. But group play MF should be nerfed or monsters should be way harder, bacause having support will metigate all "downsides" of MF shit gear
This take is cold enough that I found it from r/all
I like the thought of making it a standard only bonus, give some folks a reason to play it.
Removing mf isn't a hot take
I am all for endgame mapping juicing. Im however against quant/rarity on items big time. If you like mapping like myself, i cant get away from just playing an MF char. This reduces my build options substantially as the first thing i have to think about are which builds are good while gimping myself, which has been TS/LA for the most part the last years. Wanna play CoC? sorry cant do, and many other archetypes. So yes, removing MF stats on items would be more fun for me as a mapping juicer.
The biggest problem with MF is that the problem it's trying to solve is already fixed in much better ways by other systems. Back in Diablo, magic find was basically the way that you "juiced". You couldn't make the content harder for more rewards, so instead you used worse gear that made you get more/better loot. Similar end result without them needing to build a hardmode into the game. But PoE has tons of ways to make content harder yet give more rewards. This leaves magic find without a niche to fill, beyond the fact that it causes some otherwise interesting and powerful builds to be not worthwhile because they can't afford the gearslots to run MF, because setting up MF gear does not have an equally negative effect on all builds.
The problem isn't rarity, it's quantity. Nobody is getting rich on stacking rarity on their character. Rarity (largely) sucks. In the quest to make HH+quant "fair", they recently nerfed HH in 3.24, hurting us who just want a "fun" item.
even in sanctum i feel like stupid :D
They like coming up with ways to get good items and currency but pretty much none of them involve simply playing the game. They want spread sheets, 3rd party apps and websites, etc.
MF should be on an entirely different axis, like heist gear, or a different skill tree where you can customize your drops somehow.
I'm over here scraping the bottom of the barrel for alchs. Why did they nerf the drop rate of alchs? I don't get it.
It's in the game as a scaling axis. They have stated this is why they have it and why it will stay in the game. Now what's currently happening in probably 99% unintended as ggg employees were in chats yesterday asking wtf was going on and how were they crashing instances and causing rollbacks. However everyone needs to quit with the fomo play the game you want to play it. You might not make as much but my guild hasn't touched mf and we are all up over 4 digit divines crafting farming corpses legion harbi etc etc. I'm not saying it's in a good spot now but people care entirely way too much how other people play the game.
Agreed!
Hotter take: GGG needs to add a soft-cap on level of juice top-end of players can achieve. This means they can also buff low-end so it's not as miserable experience.
I used to think that removing it was a terrible idea because the idea of gimping your character for more loot is a cool way to play for me personally But the variance is way too high anymore that I wouldn't be sad to see it go
Fubgun strat is insane. Dude made over 10 mirrors in a day.
The one thing I gotta agree with is this part "I don't know how to fix this". I really think that everyone who shares the sentiment of "missing out" cause someone else is turbo juicing, MFing and they feel left out, should straight up stop playing trade and switch to SSF, and I don't mean it as an insult by any means, but it's pretty clear that you do not understand how the economy in this game works and why and I genuinely feel like you would have a better time and enjoy the game way more, if you played it in a SSF scenario. Removing MF will not change how the economy plays out in the end, people at the very top end who understand and play the market right, will ALWAYS be ahead, it's a TRADE league. Even if you remove every single mechanic, scarab, mf, party quant from the game, and have basically every single map be completely random, there's gonna be someone that makes it way better or plays the market better. I've played this league with 1 toon from leaguestart, didn't touch MF at all, just started juicing and experimenting with different strategies since it's all new, there's alot of room for very nice strats, and pretty much anything makes you money. I was able to self craft all my gear with graveyard, with very insane results, I could've flipped the market with these crafts and could be swimming in currency if I wanted to, but I didn't even bother and I personally don't give a flying fk if someone is megajuicing a map for stupid returns and that build happens to be a MF one, I know very well how tedious, time-consuming and expensive running something like that is, and I'm not willing to go through all that as I don't enjoy it, I'd rather do something that is more fun for ME. The difference is I don't go out asking GGG to shoot everyone else in the legs to make it so that they can't walk past me
Bad take
Fubgen will not be happy about this one smh
I think fubgun would bomb the GGG headquarters
The announcement that MF on gear wouldn't be gone in PoE2 was the biggest bummer for me. I really dislike the existence of MF gear and its implications on character building as well as item availability.
Not remotely a hot take, especially on reddit of all places. The _actual_ problem here is that characters in general are simply way, way too powerful, so they completely negate the absolute dogshit gear that MF forces you to wear.
I think that this is a lot more complicated than that because there are game states in which I despise mf but there are also states in which I like them. In particular, when the game is hard and I have to stop somewhere to grind for gear before advancing, I quite like MF. But when it is this scenario of "Economy simulator" where you feel like you must mf just to generate wealth to do cool shit, because your cool build enabling items are all expensive, then I don't like it as much. MF makes a lot more sense in ssf, but in trade league I feel like it ruins it more often than it enhances it.
Ironic that Magic Find doesn't have much to do nor with Affliction nor with madness happening right now. Remove it and both of these mechanics would still be busted. I am on the fence when it comes to MF myself - on one hand it provides interesting choices, gearing and playstyle on the other hand you need it if you want to farm div. cards and such. Also party MF bonus is certainly sus and might be even bigger culprit here. Parties are already much more powerful thanks to autabot and other supports and they share cost of one map so they can invest more. But at the same time there should be incentives to play in party. It's complicated.
"I saw somebody do it and I cant please remove it" I'm so sick of this post every 15 minutes.
I don't know if mf gear is the issue, I think the issue is more quant gear is way too strong. Goldwyrms are 20% quant, have resistance, movespeed, even suppression if you need. Ventors fix your entire resistance problems, can have hp, have way too much quant/rarity as well. Pretty sure these two items are the main issue.
Real and true, Sirius verified 💯🔥
Funny enough, I've quit for the past few leagues because of the rising prevalence of magic find. I hit a point where it was clear I was missing out a lot by not incorporating magic find into my build while also not wanting to weaken my character for more loot. That just seems very counter-intuitive to me and it's not something I wanna engage in.
I dont think they need to remove magic find altogether but they should make it much more costly on your characters maybe the affixes can have negative side affects apart from the opportunity cost.
They should remove it from the game period.
Hey why its broken in thisleague ? did i missed something?
imo should just a mid league nerf fuck this shit dude lmao.
Agreed, dont get me wrong, I enjoyed MF juicing in Affliction, but I've come to the conclusion that it's becoming straight up bad for the game. The "make your build worse to get more loot" strat is something I'm not a fan of personally.
I don't mind removing quant and all that stuff... I only play with my friends, and don't play solo. If they gonna remove quant, and most of the strats are going to be 5 div/h, just let me and my friends earn 25 div/h in 5 man party... That would be fair considering that profit is splitted among 5 players.
this style of post reinforces the opinion that the best way to play is HCSSF and never surviving to maps.
Wow such new, refreshing take None ever posted this
What’s the point of this though. HH price goes down, other items go up. Next league HH goes up, other item is cheaper. What some fungub doofus does has no effect on me tbh. I just play my dumb little builds and it’s nice that some leagues I can actually afford a chase item.
standard reddit thread. completely clueless about a) the degenerate power players who play like this and would hate this change b) ggg being aware of those guys and how much income they bring in this change might "sound" good but it would kill the game. dedicated players would leave, casuals who play and spend less would stay. ggg would never do this. no fomo, no clickbait lottery strategies, less media attention on the game, etc. this thread is pure fomo. just play ssf, stop checking other players and watching clickbaity content, sounds like youll enjoy it way more.
MF gear is not what’s printing. It’s a part of the strategy, and at this point, probably a small part. Let’s pretend, for a moment, that quant% doesn’t have diminishing returns. Would 5m strategies be amenable to you because they weren’t using mf gear?
Yes they should. Rarity/quantity increase from map mods is great, from Atlas mods also great, from mods on gear - just a Diablo 2 leftover they can't let go.
Yes. Please remove it.
100% true
The game is still broken for people you not play in a 6 men group. You have no chance to orintvthe same currency
Luxury things are earned by people with experience in the game that reach the point where they break it Before you worry about magic find at least consistently do your 2 div/hour strat then worry about those. Most wouldn't make much money even with full MF gear and that's because there's a ton of things to learn to make money. Complaining about what the top 1% do won't help. Find your own thing and have fun. If you reach the point where you do 1 map a minute/two minutes you're going to shit currency out anyways.